Transcription
Can I start? Because I would love to know a little more about you.
Okay. So, there's two things that were on my mind. Just to hear a little more about you, but also I would love to hear what you want to get out of our conversation today. So, that you know, because I think you're offering a lot just by being here and I want to sort of see if there's something I should really be focusing on that would be helpful.
Um, I guess the stuff that I'm working on the most right now is like how to open up my inner sense of self, or and like my fragmentation that I'm dealing with is like, 'cause like I've defeated a lot of the symptoms I have dealt with in the past. Um, if that makes sense.
Yeah. I, I, I'm, um, I'd be definitely interested in hearing more about, you know, what, what you mean by that, because my guess is it means it's really meaningful to you and I could assume, I, I could assume a lot of things, but hearing exactly what you mean would be really helpful.
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's kind of happening right now because like yesterday I had like, what I can only call like a symptomatic moment, but then today like, well, the whole thing went great and then today when I woke up, I felt like I, I got in this mood again where I was like, "I'm so healed. Like, there's almost nothing left to do. There's nothing." And that I know that's not true because I go through those episodes where I feel, "I'm so healed," and then like, the literally either the day before or the next day, it's like I can't keep track of like my, like a congruency of like my existence. Does that make sense? I was like, a bit stressed coming here 'cause I was like, "I don't know what to talk about." Like, 'cause that thought is in my head, like, "Oh, you're so healed," or like, "You feel so good today." You know?
This might sound like a question that's always been asked, but healed from what?
Um, trauma, I don't know. Or like, stuff that like my trauma presenting itself. Like, I'm always going to deal with, um, like stresses or like, um, feelings inside, but like the way that I regulate it on the outside, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Would you be willing to share a little more about your history and what you know, when you say trauma, what's occurred in your life?
Um, yeah, I can try. Um, so, um, when I was, okay, I don't even know where to begin. Is there a good point to start?
Like, anywhere you're comfortable.
Um, I just feel like I had a really difficult childhood and like, I don't know, like it affected a lot of, uh, things and like it caused me to become very defensive and like, I'm still unraveling that stuff, but, um, I don't know, like, I, I went through a period in my life where, a really long period, I, I don't know, like maybe from the time I was like four years old to like the time I was like 20, like 18, 19, 20, where like I just felt, um, I don't know why I'm shutting down right now. This is stupid. Okay. Um, why is this happening? Maybe it's 'cause I've never had a female therapist. Uh, I have only had a male therapist. That might actually be it. I don't know. I don't know.
Well, is there something that is coming up right now with me?
I don't know. I, I see I'm, I'm doing the thing. Like yesterday I was so in tune with my emotions and today like I have no idea what I'm feeling. It's so weird. Like, and that comes and goes and like on the days where I know what I'm feeling, I'm like, um, I feel really on top of stuff and then now I'm just like, I don't understand why. I don't know.
So, if we were to just pause for a minute.
Yeah.
Do you have any sense of what's going on inside emotionally?
Um, God, by the way, it's not an easy question.
No, it's not. I, I thought I'd overcome this though. Like, I, I'm, I'm getting better at labeling my emotions. Um, I just feel like with, like, I'm shutting down for some reason. Is that an emotion? Shut down?
Well, it's, it's certainly an important experience, right?
Yeah, it is. 'Cause like I know like how to articulate stuff. I articulated my entire, like, a lot of stuff about my childhood yesterday, but for some reason when you asked me, I, like, nothing, like, it just wasn't coming out.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, it is a, a really big question. B, I didn't give you a lot of structure.
I kind of just threw out a question of, "Can you tell me about yourself?"
Yeah. And when you asked me like, "Dealing with what?" like, I felt like you wanted me to say my diagnosis and I got stressed 'cause I don't like telling people that stuff.
I, I never tell a therapist. I, I get too stressed. Um, just saying it out loud is too much.
Do you know what's stressful about it?
Um, I don't know. Um, like, I guess like what the person's going to think or like if they're going to like invalidate me or like, a whole host of other things.
So, if we just, let's put the diagnostic label aside for a second.
Talking about that.
That's all right. Let's just put aside for a second. Um, what might I think if I knew about your diagnosis?
I don't know. You might just like view me differently. I don't know. I try to, I like to make my own like impression on people and I don't want to like give, I don't know.
So, you feel like that impression would be,
different if you like, if we talked about it? Or I don't know. This is something that has come up a lot actually. I don't know. I've never really looked at it that much in depth, but I've gone to like multiple therapists and I can never just like put everything on the table.
Um, yeah. So, you said it, um, it would be different if I knew? In what way?
Um, just the way you might view me or like, um, the things you might think. I don't know. Or like, yeah, that's the only thing I could come up with.
Yeah. No. Hey, listen. Let's start there. But, um, any ideas about what I'm, what I might think?
No. I mean, like, I don't know. Um, I'm just like, I'm upset now because like, I don't understand why I can't articulate. I'm like, I want to become a psychologist and like, I'm really good at articulating stuff and for some reason it's just not happening right now and that's like making me upset and I don't know. I, I have trauma with women. That's the only thing I can say is like, maybe because you're female therapist, I'm shutting down more. I don't know why. I don't know.
Um, are you open to telling me a little more about the trauma? It's okay if you're not.
Yeah. Yeah. I got to say something.
Um,
You don't actually have to, but I want to say something.
Well, I need to like.
It's okay.
Okay. Um, I had a lot of experiences with women growing up. Um, my past self did. I don't like to refer to that person as myself, but there's a lot of like humiliation trauma with women. So, like every time a woman was around me, it was just like a bad vibe. Either I was watching them like getting admired or like going on dates. Like there was like these friend groups in high school or middle school. It was like they were getting what I wanted, what I so desperately wanted, or like there were girls that would like put me into humiliating or critical or uncomfortable situations. Um, and that stuck with me. And honestly, this trip has been beautiful though because like I met Tiffany and she's a woman and she's amazing and like she hugged me and that was insane. Like I never thought that would happen in my life 'cause like, yeah. But that's just some background there.
Um,
You never thought you'd.
I never thought I would have a good relationship with a woman at all.
So, is Tiffany the first,
female that you've had a good relationship with?
I've only known her for three days, but like, um, we had a really good interaction and she seemed accepting and that's bizarre to me for sure. Like, just 'cause I'm not used to it. Um, I've had online, you know, like friendships and like women online say like, "Oh, we, I adore you. You're so pretty. This and that," and that makes me feel good. But then it's always like a bit removed, isn't it? You know, it's like I'm not in person with these people. Um,
So, is this hard? Like, we're in person. Not only that.
Love pressure that you might feel.
Maybe that's it. Maybe it really is. Uh, yeah, that feels like it might be right.
Did you have any expectations of today, of the last few days, of,
Um,
of our meeting?
No, honestly, I've been trying to not place expectations on stuff 'cause I tend to do that and then I get disappointed. So, like, I'm trying to actually just like see what happens and like go with the flow. It's like this new thing that I'm trying to do.
How's it going?
Um, it's been interesting. It's involved a lot of like giving up control, which is so hard to do for me, but it's been a process. Like, I've been aware of this stuff for like three years now. So, like, I am a lot different than when I started. Um,
So, this might be my naivety, but like, when you say I've been aware of this, this stuff.
My trauma. I don't know. Like, I used to not be able to like face my [ __ ] and like, I think I was seeing the world through like a lens that was not exactly reality. And I don't blame myself because I, I do think it, my trauma like built up this castle around me and I lost sight of like the world. But to me, healing has been about like unraveling that. Um, so that's what I mean. So, like, in some ways, if your trauma was very related to,
Um,
women.
That's a big part of it. Yeah.
A big part of it. And feeling like they were always getting something that you wanted.
Yeah. There was a lot of bitterness there. Um, I used to straight up just hate other women. I'm going to admit that honestly, just like, I don't feel as much that way now, but it was, there was a lot of feeling of competition and in my head, I was always like tearing down other women. Like, it got really bad to like the point where I would like be walking down the street and like, I would see a woman and I'd be like, "Why are you even trying to like look good? Like, you don't deserve that." Like, and I wanted to like wipe her makeup off her face. Like, I had a lot of like, really violent, like angry, bitter thoughts and that's hard to admit, but I mean, that's what we're here for, you know? Like, letting it out is healing.
And I, I've gone a long way since then, but like, it's always been like a competition feeling with other women. And also feeling that they're just going to judge me or like, be mean or rude or like, unaccepting.
Well, how's that going with me right now?
Um, I don't know. I think it's going all right.
Do you feel by me?
I don't know 'cause I, I do, I always wonder what the person's thinking.
Yeah. I can sort of see you trying to,
sus it out.
Sus it out. It's,
I do that. I never like to ask directly, but I'm trying to get better at that, too. Like, u, more open about that. Yeah.
Uh, the reason I asked whether you had any expectations of like this specific meeting, given that you've never really sat down with a female therapist, one of the first things you said to me, you said, "Well, I can tell you one thing. I want to be a psychologist."
I got defensive.
'Cause I was like, I was like,
Well, I didn't experience experience it as development.
Okay, good. Yeah. It was just 'cause I was like, like, I know what I'm talking about here. Like, I, this, I'm not shutting down because I am inarticulate or don't know. It's just like, I, for some reason, I froze. Like, I froze up. The freeze response, you know?
And I just did not expect that.
The two important things you said was, hey, I want to be a psychologist, and I've had traumas with women, and those traumas have been really around feeling competitive or that they always have something I want. So, it's hard for me not to be curious about that, given that I'm a female therapist, psychologist that's sitting with you for the first time.
Yeah. I've had people tell me, "You should get a female therapist just to work on this stuff because I think it would really help you grow." So, I've taken that into account. Um, too. Yeah.
I'm going to come back to this because we, a little step to the left, step to the right.
Okay.
Really talk about that.
But I, it just begs the question of how it is, you know, sitting here with me who sort of encompasses maybe all the things that you initially described.
I'm not going to lie, it's stressful, but like, I, like stress is better than like being bored. Like, I like feeling emotions. So, like, this is a good challenge for me too. Yeah. But it is a bit stressful. Yeah. Um, and I'm curious also. It's, it's like stress, but also curiosity to see what happens.
Yeah.
What do you think is going to happen?
I don't know. All I can think about is like, what you're thinking of me. Yeah.
Is that just with females?
No. But it's way worse with girls. Yeah.
Can you tell me a little more about how that goes in the general population?
I just usually shut girls out so I don't even have to think about it because if I don't emotionally invest, I'm just like, I don't care. Yeah. So, it's like a, it's a preemptive defense, I guess. Um, so I, I've never really had to face that stuff. This is like some of the first few times I am doing that.
What about with, um, people other than just, you know, women?
Well, it's different with guys because, um, my first good experience with like receiving acceptance and attention was with a guy and it was when I was 18. And then from there on, I learned like, I can be attractive to guys and therefore like, I can always fall back on that and like, it was just a different dynamic. But then with women, it was just like, you're meeting them and there's nothing else there. It's just like a, a connection.
It's just a, a vibe. There's no like, "Oh, this guy is so into me. Like, he's obsessed with me," you know, this and that. It's like, it's two people facing each other, and then there's that added trauma of like, the bad experiences. Does that make sense? It's just always more comfortable with guys. Yeah.
So, if I'm getting this right, and correct me if I'm getting it wrong, um, the, one of the big differences with guys is that, um, your looks or their interest in you.
Yeah. It made it comfortable. It's like I knew what to do. I knew how to like.
Yeah.
You had like a, maybe a leg up.
Yeah. I felt like I had more control, I guess, or more like comfort or, um, yeah. Yeah. I guess.
So, safety and sort of control.
Yeah.
And women.
Mhm. I just, I don't know. There's so much here. I mean, like, even with guys, with people in general, I had trouble connecting to or wanting even to connect to them. So, I would usually just go out with guys just to like feel good about myself and then I'd come home and I, I struggled to be interested in them a lot of the time. So, but then like when you go out with women, there's there's the expectation of, I don't know, like interest and connection and like, I struggle to be interested. I struggle with boredom a lot. So, like, I felt like if I went into that situation, they'd find out like I was a fraud or something. I don't know. Or like I wasn't really there to be like, I, I don't know. Like, I couldn't, like, I don't know. Yeah.
Are you worried about that for yourself? This idea of being a fraud?
I'm getting through it. Um, it's a long time, something I've struggled with. Um, I think that I often feel like I have like five things that I can like present to people that are impressive and like, I just want them to like admire me and like me and then after that, it's like, well, what's left? How do I like keep this going? How do I like, I don't know, like connect or like, I don't know what people, like, I don't know what people expect, but it's just like, and I felt like if I showed up, yeah, they would figure out pretty quickly, especially like girls, 'cause there's no, there's none of that like sexual attraction stuff keeping that afloat. It's like, they're going to quickly figure out there's not really much to me and there's not much that I'm here for wanting, like, except like, oh, it's messed up. I don't know. Um, I'm just going to keep going. Uh, a lot of, a lot of times I would just like want to go out with women, not even to connect with them, but just to like get selfies on Instagram and look popular and like, it was like all about that. And it was really, really, really hard for me to want anything else. And sometimes I still struggle with that. And like, it's a mess, like, you know, like, how am I supposed to, where do I even begin with that?
Where do you begin with which part of it?
Exactly. Like, any of it. I don't know where to go with all of that. It's just like so many different things that I don't know how to resolve or even start with.
So, you, you know.
And I, now I'm super. Oh, man.
What?
It's just a lot to talk about. Um, I'm still wondering what you think of me.
Every two seconds. It's like, not.
'Cause you're just asking me questions like, "Tell me about you. Tell me about what you think."
Yeah.
You feel a little exposed.
Yeah, maybe a little bit. But like, I mean, it's, it's, it makes sense. Like, it's not for no reason.
It's almost like sitting with the uncertainty of not knowing what's going in my mind.
Yeah. I hate it. I'm sorry.
You hate it. But that's it. That's what happens in the world. Well, I, God, I almost looked at you, Revy. I'm sorry. She's so comforting. Like, it's, um, and yeah, she's also a woman, so I don't even know that, but like, um, I've talked on the phone with her a lot more. It's also, I don't know. Um, maybe you know what she thinks.
I, oh, I do. Yes, I do. There you go.
So, she's a safe person.
Yes.
And so, people aren't that safe until you know.
Yeah. And I, I try to sus it out very subtly a lot of the time. Uh, with her, I just straight up ask her because she knows, she knows my business. I'm just like, "Rebby, what do you think?"
Well, how do you sus it out with people who you don't ask?
Which end up probably being a lot of people in the world?
Um, well, one of the, I don't know. I'm trying to think because like, a lot of times I've really kept relationships with women to like online, but I honestly wait for them to be obsessed with me or adore me before I ever explore that. Either that, or I keep it very surface level so I know first that they adore me and then I take it further. So I wait. Yeah.
What do you think of that strategy?
I think it feels comfortable, but I wonder if it has any limitations because I, I've noticed that a lot in my healing. There's little safety things that I do and I, I wonder.
Um,
You're asking the question of of whether it's sort of like a problem to do this.
Yeah, basically.
'Cause like, it doesn't feel like it, but I don't know.
Well, it doesn't feel like it yet. It's coming up for you as a question.
Well, I'm curious. I really am. 'Cause like, what I want the most out of life is to like, stop suffering, to stop being miserable and just like, once I figured out that like, there's good and bad to like the traits or like the traumas that I deal with, I just wanted to get rid of the bad, like 'cause I didn't deserve to deal with it and then just like experience the good in that. So, like, that's my goal. So, if I, if I can have any sort of way to like, alleviate my suffering, I'll take it. And if I'm doing something that is causing like, if limiting something is causing suffering, then I would try, try something new. Um, if I'm following you correctly, that the suffering feels very much related to how women, but people in general,
Um,
appreciate you or can be, I'm going to use some of your language, be obsessed with you, that you know, they're safe people because you've got the stamp of approval.
Yeah.
And without that stamp, you end up suffering.
Um, well, I wouldn't say that. I just, in my head, it goes like one of two ways. I mean, there's been times where I'm just like, eh, you know, they weren't, they weren't worth my time anyway, or they didn't understand me, or like, they weren't ever like able to be on my level of like, whatever. So, I didn't need to know them anyway. So, it's like, you know, I, I shut people out.
Shut people out, or maybe devalue or dismiss them. Well, question mark. Well, it feels like shunning. Yeah, I guess it feels like just like being like, "H, I'm not even going to deal with that," 'cause like, why would I? And then like, it's only the people that like, 'cause why would anybody want to like interact with people that wasn't like, yeah. Like that weren't like interested. I don't know. Um,
Yeah.
What were you, you were going to say something?
I am doing so much image management. Like, everything that I'm saying as I say it, I'm trying to make it come across a certain way. I don't know why I'm doing this. I wasn't like this yesterday.
Don't work so hard.
I don't know how to. I'm a hard worker. What can I say?
Which is great, but I wonder if you're working so hard at the expense of just saying what's on your mind.
I, I don't know. I don't know how to stop that. Is there a method to stop that? Like, seriously, I wasn't even having this problem yesterday, but the therapist was a guy.
How'd that go?
Oh, boy. I ended up getting triggered in that one, too, but not for the, the same reason. So, it was great until the end.
What happened?
I don't want to go into it. Okay. I guess I don't know. He said.
We don't, we don't have to go.
Yeah, it's, it's a long story. It's already on film, but yeah, it was, it was a different vibe and it was easier. It was easier for sure. Um, but yeah, how do I just stop that? Like, how do I just stop?
You're, you're asking a, a really good question.
Yeah. And, um, I wish I could give you a very cookbook easy answer.
Um, part of changing requires some level of understanding of which it seems like you've been on this journey for a while.
Yeah.
And you have a good deal of understanding. How much I'm just learning.
Yeah.
You know, how much you understand yourself and some of the problems that you deal with.
Oh, yeah. It's been a lot. Yeah.
Yeah. So, if I could rewind for one second and we don't have to stay on this note, but I'm just interested of you said, "I got triggered yesterday. It went well until the end. I won't get into it."
Yeah.
And then I thought you were going to say something about what was hard yesterday.
Um,
And you don't have to, but okay.
If it's helpful for me to understand.
I think it's probably not. I, I was just about to go down that tangent. I think what's most helpful is like, another thought that came up which is like, I not only struggle to like face or like, yeah, to, I don't know, with this stuff with women, it still bothers me, but also like, I struggle to want the connection in the first place. It's so bad that like, I'm still at the place where a lot of times I just want to look popular with these girls and like, and like seem like really cool and like, it's so hard for me to even want to take that further and I don't know why. And I don't know if I'm just like at the beginning of my journey there and like the more it goes, the more will open up. But I don't even know why I would want that. I don't know. It's, yeah.
Well, it's a good question. What is it that you feel like you would gain if you have all these sort of pictures that you can post with women?
I would look popular and I would feel cool. And those are very important things to me because I, part of my trauma with my past self is that they were completely unnoticed for a long, long time. And they were lame and [ __ ] worthless to be honest. Sorry, that's intense, but, uh, I hate them and I never want to be that person. So, I'm constantly trying to like, be the opposite of what they were and like, those things feel good because of that. I think.
When you say "they were," you mean those past selves of yours?
Just one. Yeah. My past self, like my child self, whatever. I don't consider that me. But yeah, it's always me just like trying to like, when I do these things, when I feel these things, it's like getting to relive what I never got, what I watched other people get for so long. Um, and that is like, yeah.
What did other people get for so long?
Everything. Um, dates, admiration, people thinking they're cool, want looking up to them. Um, acceptance. It's just like, I can't explain like the feeling of like waking up every day and like, you know that like you're waking up in a body and mind that's just like worthless and disgusting and lame and no one wants to be around that and like, so they go to all these other people and you're looking at these other people and you're like, "I wish I was them. I wish I was them." And I just, there's a lot of like, there was years of that. There was years of that stuff and, uh, eventually a lot of bitterness grew, I think for people like, and especially for women. And I think that like, I started find it very hard to care about people. And then I'm just opening that back up now because I feel lonely. So that's why I wanted to do that 'cause I'm tired of being lonely. But like, it's a, anyway, yeah, I can't, I don't even want to. It's hard to look at you right now. I don't know why.
I'm noticing that, too.
Yeah. I was looking at you just fine. Now I'm not.
I think this is just a lot, you know? This is intense [ __ ] for like, anybody.
Totally.
Yeah.
It is intense. And I appreciate you doing this.
Okay.
Yeah. I'm just like, tell me what you think of all of that. I don't know. I'll tell you one thing. Sitting with this uncertainty of not knowing what's in my mind is really hard for you when you're so focused on wanting to be seen as cool and liked.
Or even fascinating would be nice.
Fascinating. I love that word.
Yeah. It's stressful.
You know, it's almost like the thing that I might be able to say that would be the worst thing in the world is, "What if you aimed for ordinary?"
I would die. Why would you say that? That's so bad. That's like the worst thing that I could have possibly heard right now.
Because, um, if you're, I feel like to me, it's like if you don't stand out, then you're just replaceable. And I don't want to be replaceable. That thought terrifies me.
Yeah.
I don't even want to be close to being replaceable or even similar. But, you know, that's the thing that self-awareness has done for me about that stuff is like, I also know that's why I can't relate to people because every time somebody relates to me, I feel stressed about that.
So, it's like a, I don't know.
You feel.
I don't even know, like, 'cause every time someone's like, "Oh, you're so relatable." It makes me feel ordinary. It makes me feel not anything.
It's like, it's like an insult, right?
Yeah. I've.
Maybe worse than an insult.
Um, no. I'm so far past. I used to get angry. So, that would have been the me being insulted, but I'm so far past that. I just get stressed now. Like, I, I'm at that point where I'm.
I can't even get like. It's funny, like the one thing that I don't deal with anymore as much as anger, but I used to be angry all the time, but I'm just down to the base emotions of it, which is just stress and like.
Yeah. I don't know.
It, I mean, it does sound really stressful.
Well, it is. Yeah. Like, 'cause I have a dilemma, don't I? Like, I've had a million of these in my life.
Which one are you focusing on?
Well, that one. Like, to choose to like, I guess like, be so loneliness, which I can't even explain how bad that gets for me. I don't even know how to describe that. It's like, you either be lonely and you still feel not challenged by this, or you feel related to and connect, but then you do feel challenged. It's like, how the hell, which one do I choose?
I thought you were going to say something a little different.
Oh, did I?
No, no, no. I love what you said. So.
What was I going to say?
What I thought you were going to say is, either I'm ordinary,
and relatable 'cause I'm just like other people, or I'm extraordinary and alone because no one can relate to me.
I guess that's the basis of what I said. Did I say anything similar to that or like?
You, you, you said something similar, but it was.
I think deeper.
Is, yeah. Like, 'cause like that's just like, who you know, it's so much deeper than that for me 'cause like, yeah. It's, it's loneliness versus connection and it, and, and both of those come with like a thing. And yeah. Oh, and boredom. I forgot to add that one to the list. Uh, boredom and loneliness go together pretty well. And I hate that.
So, the boredom and loneliness, as far as I can tell, drove you to therapy.
Yeah. Yeah. And amongst many other things, I kind of had a full like breakdown of self that happened to me about three years ago. And ever since then, it's just been unraveling more because I let it. I could have run away, but well, I actually don't know if I could have. It was pretty bad. But yeah, I just let it happen. And you know, um, I know I seem stressed now because this is like a new challenge for me and I, I like challenges, by the way, but like, I am happier than I've ever been. So, there is that. May, you may not see that right now, but like, I like healing.
So, I, I want to continue. I just, yeah. There's all these. It's like a labyrinth to me.
When I mentioned a few minutes ago that the loneliness drove you to therapy amongst other things.
Yeah.
Would there be anything sort of a bigger factor driving you to therapy?
Yeah, I think they're all kind of even, but there's a lot more. I mean, I realized that like, I, I'm not going to say me, but my trauma was the cause of my own suffering. And I, I hit this rock bottom moment where I realized that only I could make it better. Because I used to look to other people and when they didn't do it, when they didn't take away the pain, when they didn't like be as I wanted them to, as I thought they were supposed to, this and that, like I got upset, but you can only control so much. And like, seriously, like my rock bottom moment was realizing that like, okay, it's either I do it or nobody, and I'm just going to be miserable the rest of my life.
Can I deal? Can I deal? Oh, go ahead.
Um,
I don't want to interrupt you.
It was just that and then like, I, I realized that I had agency. Like, I, I did EMDR and it took away some of my, uh, humiliation trauma. Like, it, it disconnected it because,
I guess like deep down, I always have this fear that one day I'm going to wake up and like, I'm still my past self or like, I still have that in me. And so, like, even no matter how many times I go live, for example, and I'm charming, or like I go do something and I'm charming, there's always this fear that like, all of that is just going to fail and suddenly like, what's left will just be my past self. It's like, I don't trust. But like, EMDR helped detach like that anxiety from like my present moment. And like, I'm obsessed with that. Like, I experienced it as like healing and like, I, I knew for the first time I had agency that I could, things could be different.
So, what I was going to say was a little different and I want to throw it out here to see what you think of it. Okay.
'Cause what you said was, I really looked at other people to try and help heal me.
Yeah.
And when they failed to do that, you realized you might have to do something on your own and that you were an agent.
Yeah.
Right. And it made me wonder whether, um, you were sort of reckoning with, um, people not being able to completely meet your needs perfectly, feeling sort of let down.
Constantly disappointed.
Constantly disappointed by,
life, people, everything. Their inability to sort of, dare I say, perfectly show up or show up in a way that was going to completely align with your needs.
Yes.
Yeah. Holy [ __ ].
So, your solution is, I'm going to perfectly show up for myself.
Well, like that's the thing that's, yeah. Yeah. Like the, the thing that's weird about that though is like, I always expected them to fail me, like, and then when they did, I still got so mad. So, maybe there was a bit of hope there that I wasn't like facing, but I, I considered, I would go through phases like when I first like fell in love with my ex, like I thought he was just so perfect and like, he was meeting all of my needs, but then like, it was so disillusioning for me to realize he didn't, he couldn't ever. But then at the same time, after that phase was done, I was back to like thinking like, "Well, of course people do this because like, of course people are going to fail you. This is why you have to do everything yourself," or like, you know, 'cause that, that was also me feeling alone since like the age of four, like I had to do everything myself, you know.
Mhm. So, in some ways, of course they're going to fail you. I might finish the sentence a little differently because they're human.
Yeah. And I realized that that was like, that that was like rock bottom for me amongst like other things, once again, where I was like, straight up depressed and I hated the world. I hated the world. I thought to myself, like, if existence had to exist at all, you know, getting existential for a sec, why does it have to be so [ __ ] awful and boring and a failure? And like, I got so bitter and that was a phase. And now I'm trying to just like, find the good in the world. And I, I became more spiritual and like, I tried to trust that this is all happening for a reason, that things are like this because they couldn't be any other way and there's something we don't know about that. And, uh, I try to just see people as like, what they are. Yeah. Human. Like, they're going to, they're going to be good and they're going to also not.
And they're going to meet your needs sometimes.
And sometimes they're not.
And sometimes they're not.
Yeah. Yeah.
And the extension of that is sometimes you're going to meet your own needs and sometimes you're not.
Sometimes people are going to.
No, man.
That still honestly, it still depresses me. I just realized that. But like, less so. I'm working through it. It was a lot worse. It used to be a lot worse.
But yeah.
I, I just want to say a couple things. So, first of all, thank you for your honesty because I know this isn't easy. It's interesting. We started when we sat down, you said, "I was feeling good this morning. I've What did you, what did, what was that?"
I'm completely delusional. I'm.
Healed. I'm delusional every day. I, I just joke about it now. No, I have had phases where I wake up and I'm like, "I don't know what I'm going to talk about. I'm so good." And then I sit down and all of this happens and I'm like, "Well, damn." And then like I realize I'm still depressed and like this and that and I struggle to even want connection. That's the thing I've always wondered if I can ask you that. Why do I struggle to even want it?
It's a great question. I'm going to give you an overly simplified answer.
Okay.
Part of being human for 99% of people is desiring human connection, feeling related to other people.
Then what the heck happened to me?
Well, it sounds like it's not so cut and dry.
Okay. But it always feels like there's some factor behind it that has to push me there first. So, like, loneliness is so intolerable for me. So, that's like pushing me to do something that it feels like I don't want to do because I don't know. It's just so bizarre. I don't know. I'm, I'm all backwards here, but like, you know, like I don't know how to explain it. It's not like, yeah, it's just so interesting. Like, I've only ever done things when I see evidence for how it will like benefit my life or me. And then I'm like, "Okay, if I do this, I won't experience this suffering anymore, so I should probably do that thing." And like, I have evidence that that thing will take away the suffering, so then I'll do it. But that's like the only motivation that I've ever had. I guess the best thing I could ever receive is like understanding the motive, like the evidence for why it would be good to want that connection with, with like women or with other people, like, what, what would that do for me? What would that make me feel? What would that be like? How would that change my life?
That's a very important question. That's sort of, I think, part my hope is part of what you might want to address in longer term, sort of therapy.
Yeah. But the other part to this is you're saying, "Why would I?" And as though you know, wanting that is so unusual, 'cause I think wanting it actually, or having some degree of wanting it, but not getting what you've always wanted to get out of relationships, being able to predict what people are going to say, knowing what they're going to think. Having some lever, I'm going to use the term leverage, like with guys.
Yeah.
You know, it's scary to walk into a relationship where you don't feel guys, or anybody for that matter.
That dynamic's gone.
That control, that certainty, that leverage.
Has a lot to has a lot to do with you.
Well, I think it's also that like, I struggle to have motivation without like evidence as to why it will help my life. So, like, if I, I struggled to dive into that. Like, for example, I had no motivation to change anything about my life until I like had this terrible drug experience. And we don't have to go into that very much, but it was what caused me to like, ruin it. Nothing was ever the same, um, after that. But like, I, until then, I didn't want to do anything differently because like, I didn't have the motivation to until I realized that like, I was suffering so much suddenly that like, I needed to do something different. So, there always has to be like, some sort of force like pushing me there. I don't know if I'm making sense.
That happens to a lot of people.
So, people don't usually just wake up one day when things are feeling pretty calm saying, "I think I want to change."
Yeah. Like, usually people want to change because something's not feeling right.
Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, yeah. I was just trying to explain that in like context to like me still struggling to like look at female friendships and want like a genuine connection with a girl.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sorry. There's something that just went into my eyes. I apologize. Um,
I'm trying to, I, I wonder your thoughts on like, how, yeah, I don't know.
How what? What would be the rest of the question?
How,
Um, I guess like, just your thoughts on that. Yeah.
On the complicated, um, dynamic with you and women.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a, I think it's a really good question.
I just associated. It's okay. Anyway, um,
Are you with me?
Yeah.
Okay. I wish I could package the answer beautifully for you. In fact, one of the things that I'm noticing my own urges is to be able to sort of, um, deliver things in a particular way that will feel acceptable to you.
Am I doing that? Am I saying this is my experience? I think you have very high standards.
Is that?
For yourself, but also, you know, for other people and women maybe in particular, that you're very sensitive.
But why? Like, can you tell me why? 'Cause I'm, I'm, I'm seriously interested.
And why I feel this way. Know why I would do that if I am, I didn't think how was I doing that and why?
What I'm noticing is I think women, and maybe people in general, but it's hard for me to know since I am, you know, who I am, that you have certain perhaps expectations and you might be more attuned to, you know, females and what they either look like or what, how smart you feel like they are, or what they can do to you, something that you said, what they could do for you.
Oh, man.
Right. Like, what, what people can do for me and that's not a judgment on my part. It's an observation.
Yeah. I was like, so I was so, yeah. For.
It's just an observation. It's not a judgment.
Okay.
But what I'm noticing in myself is, h, can I package something for Tessa that she might find useful?
But like, why would I do that though? I, so that gets into if we come back full circle and this is like a maybe a good way.
Yeah.
And.
Probably.
Is that I.
I think that some of the core issues that you deal with are around self-esteem.
>> I hate hearing that.
>> It's around self-esteem.
>> See? Well, like Oh man, now I want to def Why am I doing this? Cuz like I'm like no.
>> Why do I want to just say no? It's more complicated. I think self-esteem is super complicated.
>> Okay, thank you. Cuz having a woman look at me and be like, "You deal with bad self-esteem." Freaks me out. I'm going to be honest. That like stressed me the hell out. That like triggered the [ __ ] out of me.
>> I didn't say bad.
>> Did I just make that [ __ ] up? I
>> I said self-esteem. You're right. But actually, I didn't say bad.
>> Wow. Okay. So, I just took it that way and then I thought that's what happened. Okay. That's crazy.
>> Well, I think maybe you filled that in. But I did.
>> So self what I might say is disregulated self-esteem.
>> Okay. Well,
>> without judgment of it.
>> I like so badly want to explain myself now. Yeah. [ __ ] Okay. Um I want to like say it's more complic Oh man. Okay. It's like it's like I don't like I don't hate myself. That's like So I wanted you to know that.
>> I I actually didn't take it that way.
>> Oh my god.
>> Yeah. Okay. So Rabbi saying we had
>> I'm just being
>> we got to wrap this up.
>> I I want to leave you with uncertainty about what I think about you because I I think that it's too
>> um so messed up.
>> I'd be I I think that I would be contributing to some of the things that I hope you're working on, which is being less reliant on how other people see.
>> Okay. But like in my defense though,
>> you don't have to defend yourself. There's nothing to defend.
>> Yeah. Well, I It's just like, okay, I'll tell you what triggered me, though. It's like having you look at me and you're like, you deal with self-esteem like regular or whatever. Yeah. I took it badly. And then also, I I want I felt the need to say, well, no, I'm fine. Like, you know, that came out. Well, it almost came out, but then I was like, we're here in therapy right now, so I'm not trying to do that. But like that that's my thought process. But then it's like and then I wanted to explain and then Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. Would you disagree with me?
>> Um, I would say I deal with like having a coherent trajectory of my existence.
>> Okay.
>> Cuz I've worked really hard on like certain stuff like that. Like I don't know, one day I may be feeling like really good and then the next day like my trauma tries to make me feel like I'm unimportant. But that's my trauma. I don't attribute that to me. I refuse to believe I have bad self-esteem. I'm like, "No, that's my trauma trying to make me believe that I'm unimportant because I'm triggered." Like, I refuse. Like, that can't I I try to separate that from me because like I have to or else I would.
>> You keep slipping in bad. The next to self-esteem.
>> Okay. I keep doing that. I I Yeah.
>> But it's interesting because I know we have to wrap up. But the interesting part is is that
>> whether you see trauma as part of you now, part of you then.
>> Well, I it helps to separate it cuz I don't feel bad like otherwise it's like, "Oh, well then I'm a failure." But like cuz like I should do better. But then it's like no, this trauma is attacking me.
>> So it's not my fault. Like I have to fight the trauma
>> as though it has to be somebody's fault. Well, it's
>> the only reason I'm like because we could keep going.
>> Yes. Yes, we're all good.
>> But why I wanted to just sort of say this is when I said self-esteem, right? No judgment attached to it. I know you may have some judgments and I totally appreciate it.
>> Well, it's just like yeah, that like I got to admit to you that like having a woman tell me that was pretty [ __ ] intense, but like that's what we're here for. My question to you like to wrap this up would be like do you think I would do well with like that it would be useful to have a female therapist?
>> Yeah.
>> I think it would be a very um if nothing else one of the things that happens in therapy is we have you can have little mini exposures. You can do that in therapy outside of therapy with females with all sorts of therapists. But if you're noticing a particular thing that gets activated in you,
>> it may be something to look into and I think it's already on your mind.
>> Yeah, it was somebody suggested it to me and I was like maybe.
>> Yeah.
>> Did you also notice like how I came in here and I was like all like I don't know. I had a totally different vibe and then we sat down and [ __ ] quickly changed.
>> I Yeah, I did notice.
>> What did you think of that? Can I at least ask that? I promise I won't ask anything else. I actually did not, and I know you're going to have a hard time
>> believing what I'm about to say,
>> but I didn't make any judgments about it. I think you did, though.
>> Well, I was like I was in here like all confident, sitting down like, "Hey, nice to meet you." And then all of a sudden, bam, like everything just fell
>> into chaos. Um
>> or into a
>> And I I did believe that you were thinking something of it. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm sure. So, my words may not be that meaningful and I'm aware of that.
>> I'm trying to believe you right now. We're getting somewhere though. This is good. Like, I'm getting I'm The fact that I'm sitting here like I'm proud of myself. That's that's a good step.
>> As you should be.
>> Yeah. And then we can go from there cuz like Yeah. My thoughts went to like I don't know if she's telling me this cuz like she wants me to like go the ulterior motive thing. It's like no, maybe you really do mean that, but how would I know? Well, so it doesn't much matter what I say cuz I think you have your own
>> But I'm doing I'm here though. I'm I'm trying to believe. Yeah,
>> I agree.
>> Is there any like Last question. Is there any Is there any coping skill that you could give me to like
>> be able to believe people easier when they say
>> Reby's laughing.
>> Rebie, do not laugh. Not at you. Not. I think she's It's a really really wonderful wish.
>> And I wish the same thing.
>> Is it just trust? Because holy [ __ ]
>> It's called therapy.
>> Oh my god.
>> Because the reason you have what I might call is mistrust issues.
>> Oh yeah. That's
>> is not an it's not a skill that's going to fix that.
>> Damn it. Cuz I'm like, I'm going to master that skill, whatever it is.
>> And then there's nothing.
>> And if there was one, I'm sure you would master it.
>> Damn it. Okay. See, that's the thing that horrifies me about trust is that you're just supposed to like do it. And then it's like why would you put yourself at risk like that? Like you like I need evidence like like that things are going to be okay and then I'll do it. But that's not what trust and faith is. And like I don't know what to do with that.
>> Yeah. And that's not how relationships actually work. And I think you know that
>> a little bit. Yeah. I know we have to wrap up because I have to scoot, but I really appreciate your time. Thank you.
>> And it's been really nice to meet you.
>> Thank you.
>> And thanks for tolerating me on me being a woman and being a psychologist and doing this with me.
>> Yeah, you you were you were Why won't the compliment come out? I was going to say you were good. Like you were you were good. You were okay.
>> I wasn't too torturous. Well, I'll take that as a win. I want to give that to you because I appreciate like at the end you taking the time to tell me you weren't judging.
>> So like you deserve to know like that like this was a good experience for me as well.
>> Well, I I I hope so. And I also imagine that it may not have gone as perfectly as you may have wanted to do.
>> It didn't go.
>> That's called life and that's okay.
>> I know that was wild because I had a picture in my head, didn't I? And then it didn't. And then I told you I have no expectations. But I totally I totally
>> You totally did.
>> We're breaking down the layers. I keep falling through every day. I'm like But yeah. So thank you.
>> Thank you. Seriously.