Transcription
But there was a very brave young student chairman. He said, "I am the chairman. I decide, we carry on." And at that point in time, Mr. Lee Kuanu stood up. Pushed the student chairman off the podium and said, "I'm taking over."
And when Singapore became independent in 1965, the British media unanimously said Singapore is going to fail because this is a city without a hinterland. And as you know, the leaders of Singapore cried uh when Singapore became independent. They didn't celebrate. They didn't say hippo because they thought Singapore would collapse and fail.
And Orville was hotheaded about China is bad, China is this. And then uh Kishaw just killing him softly and did the job bloodlessly except that when he walked out of the door suddenly somebody found that there's blood all over him.
When I was born I was born in Singapore in 1948 uh in a very poor third world developing British colony called Singapore. And my family also happened to be uh quite poor. So we went through a lot of uh I guess a lot of hardship. Uh in fact at the age of 6 months the the doctor told my mother you've lost your son he's gone. I had a severe case of diarrhea and the doctor said I wouldn't survive but I survived. I made it to the age of six and then when I went to school at the age of six when I arrived they weighed all the boys coming in and sure enough when they weighed me they said okay you're technically undernourished. So I was put in a special feeding program when I was six years old in school. They had one one pale of milk, one ladle and the 12 undernourished boys shared the same ladle from one pale of milk and of course increasing our immunity in the process. Uh but I can assure you that times have changed. I've gone from being undernourished as you can see overnourished. uh but you know we had suffered other uh deprivations uh we didn't have a flush toilet in the home and you know my parents also came from a poor background my dad had a very rough life and indeed he was when he was sent to work as a peon in Singapore in 1933 for 5 cents a day without any parental supervision he developed bad habits and began drinking smoking gambling and that was a life that my father led so it led led to a lot of dramatic incidents in my youth. Amazingly enough, I actually can't recall some of them, but I have a good friend, Jeffrey Sung, who could actually amazingly recall things that I had forgotten.
So what I want to do if you don't mind very briefly is to read from a passage uh of a recollection by my good friend Jeffrey Sun whom I've known since the age of six and he lived about 100 yards down the road and he described how one afternoon he and his family was sitting on the ver suddenly they heard the noises people running towards an incident and so he joined the crowd and began running through the incident and this is how we describe what happens. He says, "As I approached the junction, a crowd was building up in front of the corner. Copitam Copyam is a coffee shop. There was a large crowd which spilled in the street blocking off moto traffic. I pushed my way through the crowd asking the onlookers in Malay and Hokan dialect, what's happening. It's a fight," someone replied. As I nushed my way, this is Jeffrey Singh saying this. As I nudged my way body against body to the front row, a police car arrived. A policeman was already walking past the tables on the shop floor towards a large counter where the shirtless Hilam Chinese owner of the coffee shop was standing. People's attention was directed to a particular spot next to the large counter. They were looking at an Indian man standing by a table with a broken tiger beer bottle and a broken beer mug. His white shirt wet with beer was torn and spattered with blood. He had an unshaven square face and a neatly pomoded shining black hair parted in the middle. It suddenly struck me that he was Kishaw's father. The shirtless coffee shop owner was standing nearby but hesitated to approach. Kishaw's father, the object of attention, looked drunk and fiercely defiant. Meanwhile, the policeman who came from the patrol car made his presence felt and started asking questions and waving his notebook. I couldn't hear what was said. Then I suddenly noticed that Kishaw had shown up next to the policeman and was calling out loudly, "Dad, Dad." He went up to his father and took his arm lightly with an anguish expression said, "Please come home, Dad," said Kisho. The Indian man with his torn shirt let himself be led by his son out of the copyam. The crowd parted to let the father and son pass through. I watched them cross the street together. Kishaw's house was almost right across from the copyam. Kishaw walked his father up the front step leading to the door of the house. The door opened and they disappeared inside.
Now, you can clearly see that this was a traumatic incident for a 10-year-old boy like me, but I recollect none of it. Even after Jeffrey described it, I can't remember it. So, it shows you in some ways how faulty memories can be. I can remember other things. I can remember when my neighbors came to my house and said, "Kishaw, come out. Uh, you have to go to the drain nearby." I said, "Why?" They said, "Your father is sleeping in the drain. He fell in after he got drunk." And I can remember when Chinese gangsters come to the house, wanting to collect gambling debts from my dad. My dad rolled under the bed and I had to tell the gangsters who my father wasn't home. But what I do remember is the look of sheer terror in my father's eyes uh when he heard about the gangsters coming.
Now I tell you all these stories so you have an understanding of what I said that it wasn't my destiny to be standing here in front of all of you. It was my destiny to suffer from a poor childhood live with poverty not go to university not study not travel around the world and certainly not go speaking around the world. So what happened and you'll recover you'll realize that in life uh luck is very critical and in my case the luckiest thing that happened is that when I finished high school I ended up working as a textile salesman in a Cindi textile shop and my destiny was to be frankly a textile salesman the rest of my life and I was earning $150 a month then which is about $50 US a And then out of the blue, I got a letter from the public service commission saying that I was awarded the president's scholarship. And with the president's scholarship, I could go and study in the university and I will be paid $250 a month. So my mother said, $250 a month is more than $150 a month. You go to university. And it's actually quite shocking that if if that accident hadn't happened, I would never have smelled a university at all. I wouldn't even have known what higher education is all about.
But I ended up in a university, did quite well. And in university given my circumstances the logical thing I should have been done was to have been a good student studying hard getting A's in exams because I was given an opportunity instead I became a student radical and you know I can tell you a just one quick story and I'll tell the story because one of my classmates in university actually is in this room he actually witnessed the same incident which I witnessed. Because one year in 1969, soon after the May 13 riots in Malaysia, Mr. Lee Kwanu came to address the university students. And after he finished speaking, when question time came, he was haranged by a philosophy professor, Mr. Dr. Lee Bengi, one of my philosophy professors about abortion. Mr. Lee Kwanu listened for a while, then said, "Okay, I've heard you. Let's move on." So he told the chairman, Mr. Ara, a young student, Mr. Chairman, it's time for us to move on. But there was a very brave young student chairman. He said, I am the chairman. I decide we carry on. And at that point in time, Mr. Lee Kuanu stood up, pushed the student chairman off the podium and said, "I'm taking over, Mr. Mr. Lee Kwanu.
Then of course after that I was the editor of the student newspaper. I wrote an editorial said I can understand why Mr. Lee Kwanu was frustrated but when you start pushing chairman around this is the slippery slope towards dictatorship. So I said Mr. Lee Kwanu could become a dictator. And after I wrote the editorial I told my editorial board let's sign the editorial together. My editorial board said no Kishaw this is so brilliant. Why don't you put your name on it? So foolishly I put my name on it. But this turned out to be an amazing accident cuz that's how the founding fathers of Singapore Lee Kwanu Gokenu and Rajaram first heard of me and I can tell you if you read this book you find that I learned so much for them. I wonder if I hadn't written that article, if I hadn't put that my name to it, would I have been where I am today. So I hope what this book does, it tells you the uh the remarkable transformation of my life from where I started and to where I have come and I hope you will enjoy reading the story. Thank you very much. I look forward to being interrogated by Ronnie. Kishan is your college student, the American uh exchange student. Is he here in the audience?
Uh this American one year visiting student actually flew from Colorado to Singapore for the book launch in Singapore on August 15th. Uh, I want you to know that he flew from Colorado to Seattle, Seattle to Singapore, uh, economy class sitting in the center seat.
Tell us about that story. How that changed your life as well.
Yeah. And this is another amazing, you know, I I hope you realize as a result of the stories how lucky I am when my that my friend Dean Swift came to Singapore, we became good friends and I kept I kept telling him, you know, I envied him. he could travel. I said, "I wish I could travel." Of course, we had no money, so I couldn't travel.
That was 1969.
69 and he was a exchange student.
He was an exchange student.
So, at the end of the year when he before he was about to leave, he came up to me and he said, "Kishaw, it's time for you to travel." He gave me an envelope. I opened the envelope. There was $2,000 in US in cash.
Wow.
In 1969 as a gift to me. And after that I went up to visit I took a hitchhike up Malaysia. Took a train from Pinang to Bangkok. From Bangkok I flew to Kolkata. From Kolkata I took a bus to the border of India and Nepal. And then from in Nepal I sat on top of a potato potato uh sack truck and made my way all the way to Kadmandu and I could travel because of the gift.
Wow.
Yeah.
Wonderful. Anyway, I you know over the last 25 years maybe Kishaw you and I first met because uh we showed up in the same events and you spoke on behalf of Southeast Asia and I spoke on behalf of myself but on the subject of Hong Kong and uh China usually and both of us believe that Asia has a bright future and so we fought off a lot of the doubters how that Asia s cannot think or something like that. And so we were uh Conrad at arms in a sense except that when it comes to Azen then he and I disagree. He think that Azen is the best thing since motherhood and apple pie and I am still a doubtful person as far as really how bright the future of Azen is. But doesn't matter. It does not take away from the fact that Kishaw is one of the most bright uh uh articulate uh person on geopolitics that I know anywhere in the world. Um, you know, I'm amazed how that in Singapore I'm sorry Kishaw I got bad news for you. You're not the only brilliant guy.
How how shocking.
How shocking. I can name many others. Tommy Co used to participate in Asia society events a lot uh in this part of the world including coming to Hong Kong regularly in the '90s and even into the early 2000. Chanhungi uh who succeeded you at the United Nation as a as a representative of Singapore. Uh Henchi succeeded me when I left the chairmanship of the global chairmanship of Asia society. I was very honored that Hungi would agree to take my place. Um, and then you have uh other people like George Yo uh who is equally brilliant. Uh, you have people like uh you mentioned no I don't know if you mentioned Bellahari Kasikan who unfortunately had a very terrible sad personal incident in China. I don't know if it has anything to do with his negative views about China, but he on the one hand, you and George and others on the other. Um, you know, it is amazing how Singapore produced so many great brains even when they really dis disagree with each other. In Hong Kong, on the other hand, produce no such people. We produce a lot of other kind of good people, great people, business leaders, right? uh artists, what have you. But that's one thing that we don't produce. And the reason I can think of is Singapore is a state. Hong Kong is never a state. Hong Kong is always just a city. And Singapore has Liuang Yu as the leader. And then you have Kokangui and Rajar Ratnam that you mentioned also. Those are truly brilliant people in the last century. and Hong Kong have no such privilege of learning from such great minds. So tell me tell us why can Singapore produce such great minds in geopolitics?
Well, great great question. Um I'm just a quick just a quick side note on ASEAN. As he as Ronnie pointed out, we have different views uh on ASEAN. Uh there's one statistic that everyone in Hong Kong should know in the year 2000 Japan was the second largest economy in the world as you know and at that time Japan was eight times bigger than ASEAN. Now Japan is about 1.2 1.3 times bigger than AEN and by 2030 ASEAN beer than Japan. what was the second largest economy in the world. And I tell that because I know some people in Hong Kong are worried about Hong Kong's future or where what your future might be. One growth area that is very close to Hong Kong that Hong Kong can tap on that would welcome Hong Kong is ASEAN. So that's why I would say uh people in Hong Kong should pay attention to ASEAN.
Now on why Singapore has produced, you know, you're right, very very talented uh diplomats in many areas. I think the the key difference is that Singapore had to undertake uh a very tough political struggle uh to get to where it is today. So if you read Mr. Lee Kwanu's as you know Mr. Lee Kwanu's memoirs are fascinating. I think Mr. Lee Kwanu acknowledges that the struggles that he went through forged what how the man he became. So as you know he lived through the the Japanese occupation of Singapore which was brutal, you know, really and you read he'll tell you some amazing stories in his memoirs and then he had to live through a British colony not too bad but still Singapore struggle against British colonial rule and then we joined uh Malaysia in 1963 and ended up having a very acri primonious divorce with Malaysia.
within 2 years.
Yeah. Which was of also another struggle. And when Singapore became independent in 1965, the British media unanimously said Singapore is going to fail because this is a city without a hinterland. And as you know, the leaders of Singapore cried uh when Singapore became independent. They didn't celebrate. They didn't say hip pur because they thought Singapore would collapse and fail.
including Lie Kuwanu.
Including Lie Kuanu. So you could see therefore that it was an immense struggle that these the three founding leaders of Singapore went through Lie Kuwanu Goking Sui Rajar Radnam and as a result of that struggle they develop a certain toughness of spirit, you know, which is quite amazing. I mean, I I got to know these men. I think one of the one of my key goals with this book, uh, my memoirs, Living the Asian Century, is to tell you stories about these three men. And they were I think I I met I met many great world leaders. I mean, I've shaken hands with Ronald Reagan, George HW Bush. I mean like you have uh Henry Kissinger as a big new Brazilinski but the three leaders of Singapore are on par if not better than most world leaders that I have met which is remarkable.
Now it is because of these remarkable leaders then if you if you work with them in some way or another you're pulled up by them because you learn so much from them and and they elevate. So all the geopolitical analysis that I do and that and and all the 10 books I've written, I could not have written them if I hadn't sat at the feet uh of these three geopolitical masters who in their turn had to go through lots of geopolitical struggles to achieve the kind of understanding that they did. So it was a sort of a cascading series of uh events and that sort of led to where where we are today.
Well, we all know um Lie Kuan Yu, but we don't know him intimately. um I have had the privilege of meeting him quite a number of times um even in a small occasions but you are very close to him and I was told by um Hungi who is by the way ladies and gentlemen the global chair of a society right now the co-chair um Chanhang ambassador Chan Hangi she told me that Lieu used to bring three people together in ter by by from descending in terms of age. Oldest is Tommy Cole who was the the chairman of the law of the sea convention for the United Nation. Uh he became the US he became Singapore's ambassador to the United Nation at the tender age of 30. You you told me that. And then Chan Hangi an academician turned politician and diplomat and yourself lieu would spend time with the three of you. What did he what did he do with you guys? Was he there to listen to you guys? Was he there to lecture you guys? What do you learn from this man?
Well, I can I can tell you that we we did uh learn a lot. And by the way, Tommy Co, Changenchi, and myself. Another thing that's common among the three of us is that we were at our young ages, we were also dissenters. All three of us had been critical of the Singapore government when we were in university.
So, how were you suppressed?
Uh, how was I?
How were the three of you suppressed or did you get enlightened by
Well, we we definitely got a lot of scolding. In fact, and in fact, if you read my book, you'll find that every senior Singaporean has been scolded by Lie Kuanu. And whenever senior Singaporeans met, it's a badge of honor. You know, you know what? how you scolded me or not.
That's why I'm no good because you never scolded me.
And so we but the remarkable thing about Singapore is that even though the three of us were well-known denters, the government realized that we could be useful and so they invited us uh to work with the government. So Tommy Co went from being a lecturer in the law faculty to becoming ambassador to UN at the age of 30. Changing Chi went from being a you know a lecturer in political science to succeeding me as ambassador to the UN you know and then I ended up working for the government because of my uh born from the Singap uh president scholarship.
But you became the the Singaporean ambassador to the United Nation at tender age of 34.
Most 34 year old is I hate to say this but still wet in the pants. I was when I was their age. Uh Uh, were you one in your pants? Were you?
Well, I actually I No, no, I to be correct. I wasn't 34. I was 35. Much older. uh the no I mean I uh it was it was to me again a tremendous opportunity being you know when you're thrust into a very big job and for me the hard part was that I was succeeding Tommy Co as Singapore's ambassador to UN who had already been ambassador to UN for 13 years altogether. So Tommy was a legend uh in the United Nations and I also asked to succeed a legend and the one lesson I learned is that when you asked to succeed someone who's very very successful whatever you do don't try to step into his shoes. Don't try to I didn't I I didn't want to copy Tommy Co. I said Tommy Co had a certain style of speaking. I would choose my own style. I wouldn't try to do what Tommyo does in the way that he spoke. And so I had to evolve my own character, my own personality and my own way uh of of of doing things. Uh but of course, nonetheless, it helped a lot that I was succeeding Tommy because Tommy was so well known once I introduced myself and said I'm the successor of Tommy code, everyone would open their doors to me. So I in some ways I also wrote uh on the coattails of his success.
Sure enough, Kishon has a very very effective style uh including your style of speaking and many of you know that I can be a little hotheaded and I go pick pick a fight in the international arena for the last 40 years and often times Kishaw will be the gentleman sitting next to me and I will be going with whoever uh and Kisho would just sit there and smile and after I finish he would just speak once simple word in my support in a most gentle way and the other guy wasn't defeated by me defeated by Kishaw and his style uh I call it killing me softly I don't know and if if that's what happened to you too but it's none of my business I better not delve into that uh but your style is certainly very good uh you know just a little story um one day I got a phone call when I was a vice chair of Asia the society. The chair at that time was Richard Hullbrook. He called me up. He said, "Ronnie, I just want to let you know that we have appointed Oval Shell to a position at ASA society." Knowing that Richard knows very very well that I would be very upset to have appointed that guy into a position at ASA society of which off the vice chair. So he did it after he appointed him because somebody gave us a lot of money uh to endow a chair. So Orville and I have known J for 3540 years. We always disagree. I remember hosting him lunch. He and his wife in in San Francisco when there was still dean of the journalism in at UC Berkeley trying to change his mind. I never changed his mind. But the best moment I've ever seen uh happen to Overshell was when he interview you in New York in at the Asia Society. For those of you who haven't watched that, I encourage you to watch it. And Orville was hotheaded about China is bad, China is this. And then uh Kishaw just killing him softly and did the job bloodlessly except that when he walked out of the door, suddenly somebody found that there's blood all over him such as uh the Chinese saying. But anyway, um so when did you discover that perhaps you are meant for greatness? At a 10 year old, you can pull a bloody father drunk in front of everybody and the policeman and you can just gently let him back home. Did you discover your greatness that day? You don't even remember it. So was there some moment that you discover perhaps I am meant for greater things. Was there such a moment?
Uh yeah that's a interesting question. And I would say it was not one particular event per se but at each stage of my life uh I would say I was blessed with good teachers. So I describe in my book for example I didn't go to actually I applied to join the best school in Singapore Raffles Institution and I was rejected not once but twice.
Why your grades were not going?
No, I wasn't bright enough. So, they rejected me. But anyway, I ended up going to schools where I had very in St. Andrew school. I described my teachers. I had very good teachers, very inspiring teachers. And then I went to university and again in the philosophy department, I had remarkable teachers. In fact, one of them, the Colin Davis, later came on to lecture the University of Hong Kong. And I I'll never forget the lectures that Colin Davis gave because he he would get so engrossed in his lectures. He would think be thinking so hard and in those days you could smoke in the classroom you know. So there he was thinking very hard smoking and then suddenly before you realize it his hair is on fire from the cigarette and he's still thinking he's not even aware that his hair is on fire. So the ch the student students would rush up and you know beat out the fire and they say but it happened not once but twice or thrice. So that was a lesson to me of how engrossed you can become in philosophy and in arguments and you'll see in my memoirs my my love of philosophy really made a big difference. uh it it sort of opened my it was like as they say you know uh education is not about filling a bucket but about lighting a fire. In my case, my studies in the philosophy classroom basically set of firecrackers in my brain. And those firecrackers in my brain, I think, helped me then subsequently whenever I got involved in arguments, you know, as as you mentioned. Then it was my my training in philosophy that taught me to analyze exactly what somebody is saying. He says X, he means Y and this is a consequence is Z. Do you really want to? Is that the path you want to go on too? But it's the philosophical training that enables you to dissect arguments in a way that is quite remarkable.
You'll give credit to three teachers of yours. One of which of course is uh Dr. S. Lee Kuan Yu. The other two, Kokenu and S. Raja Ratnam. What are they like? What impressed you about them? What did they teach you?
Well, I would say they're very, very different individuals. I mean, Lie Kuan Yu is a very forceful politician, a forceful person. So, if Mr. Lee Kuwanu was standing up there speaking to all of you, you would all be sitting at the edge of your seat listening to him because he's an amazing speaker. Now, if Dr. Goken Sui then came up to the podium after Lie Kuwanu and started speaking you would all fall asleep literally I'm not exaggerating because what he does is that he has a text he looks at his text and then he reads you know and he's an economist he never ever looks at the audience so he's just constantly just reading what he and what he what he what he writes is absolutely brilliant but if you can't connect with the audience you can't do that now Rajaram by contrast was also a very colorful was a an economist.
He was an economist, an absolutely brilliant economist
with a doctorate degree.
The the the as you know one of Singapore's major success is that it's a is an economic miracle and the man who is truly responsible for the economic miracle is Dr. Goku speak and and he is and he is incredibly hard-headed also as hard-headed as tough-minded uh as uh Mr. Kwanu and it is very unusual in most governments to have three very strong powerful individuals who can get along with each other and work with each other because normally when you have strong individuals you also have political competition among these individuals and then they start fighting each other but the the the remarkable thing about Singapore's founding generation is that they were able to work together as a team and complement each other very very well.
What was Raja Ratnam like?
Mr. Raja Atnam was uh you know if Mr. Lee Kwanu came into this room and he stood up there and you faced him and and you if you confronted him you would get very frightened of Lee Kwandu. I mean he is a force of nature but if you met Mr. Rajar Nam you will never get scared of him. He's the nicest guy in the world. Very friendly, constantly smiling, not in the least bit intimidating. Yet, if it comes to a political fight, Rajaratnam was a fierce fighter. I'll never forget once when I was in Cuba, Havana, uh, attending an online conference in 1979. At that time, Singapore was fighting the Soviet Union, you know, and as you know, Castro was allied with the Soviet Union. So we had a fight with Castro over the Vietnamese uh invasion of Cambodia and because uh many of the delegates there were pro-s Soviet uh Castro invited us to attend a small meeting where he invited very powerful third world leaders like Saddam Hussein Hafes Assad Yas Arafat all of them and to intimidate Mr. Rajaratnam and if I I felt intimidated when I was in the room because all these powerful leaders were there.
Mr. Rajaratnam was just a foreign minister. These were all heads of government. He wasn't in the least bit intimidated by any of them and he fought like a lion and and Mr. Raja Nam if you had a struggle if you wanted a lion to fight with you Mr. Rajaratnam was a lion.
What made the three of them work together? How come they didn't fight?
Well, they fight but it did not prevent them to from working together for the good of the country.
Uh well, I think it was a common experience of suffering uh together, suffering the Japanese occupation, fighting the British for decolonization, uh fighting against the Malaysian politicians when we were in Malaysia from 63 to 65. And and remember there there were times when the three of them could have lost their lives in the Japanese occupation. They could have easily lost their lives. And I think at some point in time when the tensions between Malaysia and Singapore became quite serious, there was a possibility that they could have been taken to jail and imprisoned. So they they went through real hard political struggles. And when you when you when you fight battles together, you develop a camaraderie and trust which is amazing. And and so these three men trusted each other. No, they were they had different views, I must say. And they would argue with each other uh and they would be very blunt and direct towards each other in the arguments and I actually was present sometimes when they argued with each other.
Now I know what's wrong with Hong Kong. We didn't have to fight. 1997 everything was prepared by by Beijing for us and uh the British were left with little choice and so Hong Kong became part of China again like since time in memorial and uh it's too easy and so we didn't have any struggle any fight. Uh, I'm not proposing that we Hong Kongers should go through a tough time. I'm very thankful that we Hong Kong was able to return to China in a very very peaceful way. But that comes with his baggage as we all know. From your perspective, Kishaw looking uh from the outside and as a friend of Hong Kong, I know you we have known each other for a long time. as a as a friend of Hong Kong, what can you advise us? Should we do we need to develop uh politically savvy individuals? Um we just don't civil servants are not meant to be uh politicians. They they did not have the training. In fact, they were prevented from touching politics under the British. And after 997 they are thrown into the lion's cage and and and they have to become politicians and it's very very tough both the ones like Tong who were brought in from the outside or the civil servants. Do we have a chance of producing great brains uh like Singapore does in geopolitics?
Well, I think um you you're right when you say that Hong Kong didn't have to go through any struggles. you and you you made a peaceful transition from the end of British colonial rule to becoming a part of China. But I uh I can tell you one thing in case you all bored uh the next 10 years will be very exciting for Hong Kong because you have become a key political football in one of the greatest contests of all time in the in the contest between United States and China. So Hong Kong will be kicked around, you know, as a football in this game. So I would say that if there if ever there was a time for Hong Kong to develop geopolitical reflexes, it is now. You must actually understand the forces that are operating against Hong Kong. And and there are various things you can do.
By the way,
such as
number one, I think I'm not sure whether you have put together, it doesn't have to be a public declaration, at least have somewhere in the Hong Kong government, a small private think tank that tries to monitor the the great big geopolitical game that is being played between the US and China and how it's going to affect Hong Kong. So you must at least have a team studying the the all the moves and the consequences.
The last the last CE of Hong Kong dismantled that.
He he he ended uh the CPU which is a central policy unit. So we're going the wrong direction. What's number two?
Number two I would say you know uh you're right you're part of China but remember it is not one country one system. It's one country, two systems. And what you need to uh emphasize is not just how you are part of China, which you are which you are, but also how different you are from China, right? You have the British legal system and you know, you have you're clearly not a Chinese city in the way that a city in China is. And what you can do to help deflect the geopolitical pressure coming towards you is to emphasize that you are different and that you are in a sense you are part of China but also have a different system. And as a result of that, at a time when American politicians are trying to isolate and bring down Hong Kong, you can become a magnet a magnet for global talent and the m the global talent will come here because they on the one hand interested in China which is frankly the still the world's fastest growing economy overall in many ways and at the same time want to live in a place that is close to China and yet was so different. So when at a time when you know many of the major western countries are shutting their doors to global talent. United States is Donald Trump wants to close close the borders. Even even Canada, the world's most open country, Justin Trudeau just announced he's going to raise immigration barriers. So that you know there's a there's a tremendous amount of human talent in the world. So just as I was a young boy in a coffee shop with no hope of going to university but I ended up going to university and then succeeding. There are lots of young people like me in the world who are looking for opportunities and Hong Kong can attract that global talent and if you can do so if you become a magnet for global talent then frankly that will create a selfreinforcing virtuous circle that will strengthen Hong Kong.
You use a phrase that in passing that I don't know if ladies and gentlemen you guys pick it up. I did. And the reason I pick it up is because it's exactly the same thing I've been saying for the last couple of years and I find no resonance among my friends in Hong Kong. You said that US is trying to bring down Hong Kong. We are collateral damage. We're not the main target. But in order to hit Beijing, you hit Beijing's sun, so to speak, and hence you give Hong Kong hell. Especially as a financial service center. If America doesn't hit you hard in that area, I think America is asleep and America is not asleep. And yet, what I'm afraid is Hong Kong people are asleep. Hong Kong government is asleep. And by the way, we are more left than the Beijing leaders. It seems uh to be more like them so to speak rather than emphasizing as you have proposed the uniqueness of the two system. Now in the old days when Anenchan used to propose one country two system to the to to the neglect of the one country I was the first one against him her now I'm saying that times have changed yes we respect 100% 150% the one country but this is the time that we also I have to borrow a page from Anson Jan not exactly to emphasize the two system as well. So I think that Hong Kong is undergoing a lot of changes at this stage.
Um are
I think what what Hong Kong needs to develop is a very high degree of sophistication in its understanding of geopolitical developments. And it's important for Hong Kong society also to develop that kind of understanding because these are the forces that will be shaking you. I mean you put up all these warnings, typhoon warnings, right? I mean it's good. You should, right? You should have a geopolitical typhoon warning also and put it up on the street and say, "Hey, a geopolitical storm is coming." And that geopolitical storm, believe me, can do more damage than your typhoon Yagi can do. So, but you got to develop therefore the antenna, the capacity to understand what is going on, what is the game that is being played. And that frankly was the best legacy that the leaders of Singapore Lee Kwanu Goku and Raja Arnam left behind in Singapore because Singapore when it comes to geopolitics is one of the best performers in the world because we know how to manage all the great powers. In fact, even as you and I are sitting in this room talking, uh I was just on CNBC from 11:30 a.m. to 12:00 noon talking about the visit of Prime Minister Modi to Singapore, you know, and Singapore is such a small country and yet many of the world leaders come to Singapore to to interact with Singapore. So clearly we know how to engage the great powers and how to deal with them and and that's something also that Hong Kong can and should develop.
Uh now
I can assure you Kishaw Hong Kong does not have those kind of talents. If anybody know anything along that line, it's already in this room because they are my friends and I am they are amateur. Are there people in Singapore we can engage to advise us? Help us. Can you give us a few names at least half as good as Kisho Mabubani? Are there such
No, no. I mean I I this is actually something that you have to struggle with yourself. I mean, you know why it's if you don't feel the struggle yourself you won't be able to uh uh understand the the consequences that that that flow from it. So you have to develop it internally and sometimes uh you you will succeed. You'll make mistakes but it's actually the process of making mistakes is when you learn uh from what you do. So Singapore clearly has made lots of mistakes too. But it's from the mistakes that we learn what we did right and what we did wrong.
You know Kon you and I agree that the world is a very cruel place. You said something in your book page 85 or something that Tommy co disagree but I'm with you on that point that is international arena is a jungle they are laws there are rules tribunals and and conventions and this and that but they are only there uh for as tools of the major powers and it is very much a jungle as you have described but Singapore on the other man was able to do things that are against the the the the the bigger boys. Uh and you do things that are politically incorrect and Lie Kuanu didn't give a damn about it and he insisted on it. For example, Singapore's educational system while educating every man as and woman as much as possible, they also are very elitist. Today in much of the world, including Hong Kong, if you were to use the word elite, that we are the elitist, you we train elites, you will be banished. and and and and Singapore is able to do that. Has Singapore lost that edge today because you are now wealthy or are you still bucking the trend, pushing the envelope in doing what makes sense, frankly, common sense and hence succeeding.
Well, I think the the good thing about Singapore is that we have in some ways made a very important transition. Well, in the early years we succeeded because we had very strong exceptional leaders as I mentioned and you know we've we've had I must say uh this is unusual by the way I mean if you look at the United Kingdom for example you look at the recent prime ministers I mean Boris Johnson was a joker uh his successor this trust was a joke I mean you you can see therefore if a country like UK has difficulty producing great prime ministers Singapore has been very fortunate. You know, we've only had four prime ministers and four exceptionally competent prime ministers, very different.
agree,
but very successful uh in their own way. But this also reflects the fact that over time as we are de as we have developed, we have also developed strong institutions in Singapore. Now, so for example, in the early days when we started off when I joined the foreign ministry, there must have been about 15 or 20 people in the foreign ministry. Now there are over a thousand I believe uh diplomats that we have. So we have we have grown significantly and we have developed the institutional bench strength plus what you might call muscle memory. So we remember episodes and how we handle crisis. I mean in my book I describe what happened when Mr. Lee Kwanu very bravely decided to expel an American diplomat in the 1980s. Now that's amazing. In those days, United States was clearly by far the most important country in the world. Singapore was a little tiny dot as a little tiny rail red dot and we decided to expel an American diplomat. And that that obviously is a very risky thing to do. But if you if you read my book, you'll see how Mr. Lee Kwanu was very careful in the way that he managed the whole thing and he could as as actually as Giorgio once said, Mr. Lee Kwanu is a man who can unleash a political storm and pull back a political storm.
Wow.
Now that takes incredible skill by the way.
Incredible.
Likuan, you had that right. But now we have developed the institutional bench strength that replaces some of these things.
Before opening to the floor, can you give us a summary of how you see the world today in no more than 5 minutes?
You said that Hong Kong will have a hard time in the coming 10 years. I agree. And you said somewhere else that China will have a lot of challenges in the next 10 to 20 years because of the United States, you know, hitting on China.
Yeah.
But can you see can you tell us what you think how it may end? Number one. Number two, what about some of the other major players in the world like Russia, like Indonesia, like India, uh Japan? Can you say a few words?
Well, actually to to give you a a decent answer, I must follow Fidel Castro and give you a three-hour speech now. No, but I think if you give me five minutes, the the the the thing that the key the key point I want to emphasize to everybody is I'm very glad that I'm alive today because I think you're going to see incredible changes over the next 10 years. The world is changing fundamentally on many fronts. Okay. Right. You know, I spoken about the end of the era of western domination of world history that's happening as we speak. The return of Asia that's happening as we speak. And all this is creating a whole new world order. Now, if you want to give me a if I want to give a very brief summary of this world order, I describe it as a 3M world. 3M is not the company in Minnesota. uh but 3M stands for one multi-ivilizational multi civilization. So because there the there you know with the end of western domination of world history there are many successful civilizations in the world including the synic and indic civilizations China and India rising clearly and then number two is multipolar so you used to have very clear centers of power one or two centers of power now you're moving in a world where there are any independent poles and even some of the middle powers can exert themselves and behave completely independently of the great powers. So the capacity of the great powers to control the game in the way that they could in the past is diminishing.
Can you give examples?
Well, I give you an example. In theory, Turkey is a NATO ally and should be listening to United States and should be, you know, compliant with United States. But Erdogan is completely independent. He maintains his separate relationship with uh Vladimir Putin and he takes the independent positions on many uh many many issues. So that's one one example but there are many uh other such examples. I give you another example. Even as we speak, it's quite amazing. The Malaysian prime minister has decided to go to Moscow. Now, I'm sure that it's going to anger uh the United States and Europe, but he's saying, "I'm an independent leader. I will do what I want to do." So, the the sense of agency that the middle powers have is more than it was uh in the past. And the third M is multilateral. And so you will see that as we live in a small global village where we live everything is interdependent and we have to work together in a small global village you need global village councils and therefore multilateral institutions whether it's the United Nations G20 or even regional multilateral institutions like ASEAN multilateralism is going to become stronger and stronger in the world.
What we just watched was a major dialogue from September 2024. It was hosted at the Asia Society Hong Kong Center. The occasion was special. Singaporean veteran diplomat Koreani was launching his new memoir, Living the Asian Century. Sitting across from him was Ronnie Chan, chairman of the Asia Society Hong Kong Center. Ronnie is not just a business tycoon. He is a sharp outspoken opinion leader who has spent years deep in the world of international geopolitics. In this deep conversation, Mapubani took us back through his incredible life story. Who could imagine it? A poor, undernourished boy who had to share one milk ladle with 12 other kids. Yet, an unexpected scholarship changed his life forever. He went from those humble beginnings to the center of the world stage as a top diplomat. But this isn't just one man's story. It mirrors the destiny of Singapore itself. Mahbubani revealed the real secret to Singapore success. That secret is struggle. It was that desperate fight for survival when the whole world expected them to fail that forged the iron will of Lie Kuan Yu's generation. However, the deepest takeaway here is the stark contrast in leadership between east and west. Ronnie Chan asked a piercing question. How does a tiny place like Singapore consistently churn out worldclass strategists? In contrast, the decline of Western leadership is jaw-dropping. Mahbubani didn't hold back. He specifically pointed to the UK. From Boris Johnson to Liz Truss, we saw leaders who turned governance into a joke. They turned a great power into an international farce. Then look at the US. It is polarized, populist, and paralyzed by infighting. The Anglo-American model, once the gold standard, seems stuck in a death spiral. Their systems are selecting performers who can stir up emotions, not governors with a long-term vision. Now look back at Singapore. They have successfully transitioned from strongman politics to institutionalized meritocracy. Through strict selection, they ensure the country is always steered by the best, most rational brains. As Makubani hints, this might be the fundamental logic behind the Asian century. When one side produces strategists and the other produces politicians and performers, the answer is clear. We know who will hold the power in the future. We want to hear your thoughts in the comments below. If you found value in this video, please like, subscribe, and share. We'll see you next time.