The New Plan to Make Ethereum Win

Bankless Nation. I'm here with Onsgar and Casper. These are two of the many co-founders of ETH Labs. Onscar, Casper, welcome back back to Bankless.

>> Good to be here. Hi, David.

>> Yeah. Hi. So in the same week that the EF has explicitly positioned themselves as just one node in the network, we have the launch of ETHLabs, a new research and development arm uh under the leadership of YouTube as well as a few uh other names that people would recognize uh out of the Ethereum ecosystem. Talk to me what is Ethlabs?

>> Yeah. So, EALabs is a nonprofit um R&D lab and very simply put our mission really is just to make Ethereum and ETH win. As simple as that, right? And to say a little bit more like I think we have this very strong feeling that right now Ethereum in particular, crypto as a whole, but really Ethereum in particular is in a very unique moment in time. Um the first 10 years of Ethereum, there was a lot of infrastructure built out infrastructure in the broadest sense. um the chain itself, things like um DeFi, all these all all the the rails now it's ready for adoption. It's ready for prime time. The global economy is coming on chain. Um and we see two different paths how that can play out. One of them with Ethereum at the center and we think that's better for the world, but and that's better for Ethereum and we think there's a clear shot on goal here and we intend to take that shot.

>> Ethlabs is a new R&D lab. Uh the only other R&D lab is the Ethereum Foundation. So now we have two uh research and development labs for Ethereum. Uh talk about that. Is is that correct? Maybe there's others that I don't know about, but this is really kind of like the main second research and development arm for the Ethereum project. Is that right?

>> Yeah. So we are a new or so far a lot of that work especially um up in the pipeline. So more like towards the road mapping the early earlier stages research um a lot of that has been relatively concentrated in Ethereum inside of the Ethereum foundation it's not as binary there have always been um other external ors that have contributed I myself started my journey actually at an or called quilt that was a minor role but we really believe that um in this moment in time

>> um that that old setup no longer quite works um and actually I think the Ethereum foundation also believes Um and so now is the opportunity to really like start decentralizing that layer of Ethereum as well.

>> The the timing of this is obviously going to be very very interesting. The EF is talking about downsizing both in the uh team the headcount and also the the budget of the Ethereum Foundation. And this is being discussed at the same time as the the rise and the launch of ETH Labs. talk about that opportunity for ETH Labs and also the talent that Ethlabs has, who is in Ethabs, who are like the actual team members uh and just the the shift in the power center of Ethereum and what ETHABS represents for that.

The Ethereum Foundation has put out a new mandate at the beginning of this year and has kind of come forward with a lot of clarity in in what it intends to to to work on and that includes basically reducing its focus to some extent and really double down on crops. So censorship resistance, open source, privacy and security. And that's at the end of the day why we're all here. this is the these are the core properties that give us credible neutrality. And so naturally by double downing on like one core mission um and the choice of sort of focusing your attention to that um comes also kind of this reduced focus and I think I would yeah um put those reduced uh size uh efforts in into into connection to that basically. And what this also means is that um as for the Ethereum ecosystem, that means there's other things that if we care about them, we need to make them happen. And um as these labs, we're basically here to see kind of see that gap and actually fill that. And um and yeah, we we we think um it's a unique moment and um we're here to fill it.

>> Yeah. And I mean, just because we keep saying it's a unique moment, I think it's actually good to briefly unpack this, right? I think um really if if you look back like I think you you can maybe point pin pinpoint it to maybe two years ago or so I think when we really it's of course a transition but but I really think it's probably the single biggest pace change of crypto as a whole really going from this like these early years of really figuring out how is this infrastructure even supposed to work right like how how do chains work like how do you bring assets on on the chains how does trading work am all these things like every all of these things were were being built out and and now it's ready for prime time and it and has been for a while. Stable coins as the first major real world asset kind of um has been ramping up for for several years already. Um, and this transition into the spirit of adoption is just asking new questions, asking making new demands of what I would call ecosystem stewards, right? So um um that's the Ethereum Foundation. There's many other orgs of course that all collaboratively there's therein entities like Etherealize Consensus, right? like like the Ethereum ecosystem has always had this like plurality of of of different orgs but but the the Ethereum foundation of course always played played played a special role there and in in this new time period like there's a lot of new expectations a lot of new needs for Ethereum and I think we've also seen over the last year with Tomas being being at the at the at the Tomas and Shawe as cos for a year um the F really trying to figure out like what is our role in this new time period so I don't think it's it's an accident that it's Now it's not just a it's just not just random. It is really the F I think finding its identity in this new um in in this in these very changed circumstances. And now I think what we're seeing is really like the F has made their choice has communicated this early in the year and is now executing towards really like reshaping itself around that new mission. And as Kaspar was saying, in many ways that's exciting because that is really about like well the way I would say it is the F maybe stands for the things in Ethereum that need to stay the same right like that is like this this kind of this core identity of Ethereum that we like under no circumstances could like must ever lose right and that need reinterpretation all the time like security Ethereum is secure today but with quantum on the horizon you need to actually do a lot of work to keep it secure right so like it's not just a steady state like but it's the same constant values And then I think where I would say like what maybe where there's well opportunities but also like the need for other people to step up and where we saw the need for us to step up is really to like the areas of Ethereum where Ethereum needs to evolve where Ethereum needs to fill fill a new role and like really needs to to to change um how how it is set up and yeah so so that's why like it's not just a random moment in time it's not just like struggles of the Ethereum Foundation. It's really like I think a very clear like shift in the environment and a shift in the or as a consequence.

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The EF has made it very clear. This is what I believe you guys are saying and what I agree with exactly what they want to do. They want to focus on crops. They've kind of always seemingly wanted to focus on crops protecting Ethereum's soul. Ethereum is very special. It would be terrible if Ethereum lost the properties that make it special. And what are those properties? Those are crops. And it seems to be what Vitalic and culture at the EF really resonates well with. On the other side of things, there has seemingly been a missing piece of Ethereum stewardship that is really about putting points on the board. Is that what ETHLabs is here to do? Put points on the board?

>> Yes, I I would say I would say so. Well, my answer would be yes. And I really think I really think it's important that there is an ARC that just really embraces that Ethereum wants to win. Ethereum wants to win and ETH wants to win. And those two also are connected, right? I think we maybe we can talk about it a bit more, but like I think that those are just clearly true statements, right? And like and and there's a few more in this category like embracing that finance is at the very core of what makes Ethereum Ethereum, right? these these are like I think very basic things but I think having an or that just really wants to embrace them I think that's a starting point at the same time I don't think it's just purely about saying that's already a very worthy mission all in itself but I do really believe that you know when when we when we say the global econ economy coming on chain I really believe that there's like two very different ways in which that can play out and basically like what I would almost see as the default is that you have this this this world of like all these different independent chains that where basically you have you have some use cases on chain one and some use cases of chain chain two and maybe it's some geographic split or it's a split by use cases or by institutional coalitions these kind of things and then you tie them all together with like brittle links and you you try to over time drisk these links but we've we've seen this multiple times in the past right bridges keep failing because ultimately bridges between independent chains can only ever be so secure can only be ever be so robust, right? Because ultimately these these chains just do not have a shared state. And the the alternative outcome is one where really the global economy has one kind of central node, right? Like one central node. It doesn't mean that all the activity is on that central node itself. It doesn't mean that all activity is on Ethereum L1, but it means there's one central node that everything links back into. And it means that basically like these these defaults are sticky once once they set up. It means that we're in a fundamentally better state for the world when when all these different parts of the economy can talk to each other trustlessly and and and without friction and we really believe that it's only Ethereum that can play that role. There is no second best neutral chain. There's no second best chain that actually has a shot at this. But that doesn't mean it's inevitable. Like we could just end up in this worse world. And so so basically like it's about like incrementally by putting wins on the board. the way you said it. I I think that that drank true a lot like really just like going talking to the builders in Ethereum. They they have been Ethereum's core strengths. Figuring out like what are the friction points um especially what are the friction points as we built towards you know like bringing finance and and and and these economic flows on chain more and more and and just iteratively removing them strengthening Ethereum and and and but like in a way it's now right like it's not just it's it it really now is this moment in time.

There was a line in the announcement post of uh Ethlabs, principles do not change the world until people benefit from them. I thought that sent shivers down my spine. I was like, yes, somebody is taking Ethereum by the horns and scaling it out into the world. And so I want I want you just to like lean into this a little bit more and specifically in the contrast or or the collaboration with the EF and the relationship with the EF because we have this one organization that's always been there that's protecting Ethereum's soul and what the ETH what ETHLabs is works well with that but it's doing something different. So like talk about that dynamic where the EF has one half covered and ETH labs has a different half covered and especially around this line of principles do not change the world until people benefit from them.

>> like you said basically right like DF is about what makes Ethereum Ethereum and then I think ESLAP is ESLABS is basically about bringing that Ethereum to the world and so we we basically want to scale this credible neutrality to the world and um I think the nice thing is we can scale those to the world each in our own way but ultimately it's it's it's together right so scaling these properties what does it mean it means actually building them in the first place. It's maintaining them. Um, it's then also building the block space to make them actually available. Um, and then it's also about having them adopted um as well. And so I think DEF um has squarely covered basically um maintaining those core properties and strengthening them um and then E labs is there to to kind of um scale them to the world um as well.

Does ETHLabs have a opinion or philosophy or stance broadly about Ether the assets? Because I think this is also something that has been left to be a void by the EF and then taken up by the community by like Bankless in the early years and now the community has kind of taken leadership over ETH and it's always kind of been not really supported by the EF or at least not to the degree that we've really wanted. So what is ETH Labs? What what do you guys think about Ether the asset?

>> Really our position is actually quite simple and quite natural. I would say like I think it's obvious that Ethereum and ETH can only win together. Like that is clear, right? Like Ethereum is the chain that gives ETH the existence and powers ETH. And then ETH is is the asset that sits at the very core of Ethereum that gives it the security, right? Like these two are deeply synergistic. Um, and I think sometimes that hasn't really been recognized enough. I think sometimes the protocol is being developed really just as a as a purely technical project and the outcome like the effects on ETH are a little bit of an afterthought and I think that's just a mistake right like you really need to co-develop Ethereum and ETH you need to understand like as you find the place for Ethereum in the world like what does it what are the consequences for ETH like what role does ETH play in that world um and you need you you need to basically like find find a a a stable synergistic outcome for the two right and so there's a few very simple things so one is just um and we've seen this with Bitcoin. Like why why is has Bitcoin been so successful? Well, because Bitcoin Bitcoin is Bitcoin. Bitcoin is I always use the word inevitable, right? Like there's there's there's something like some sort of destiny element to it. Bitcoin Bitcoin kind of like has this this aura of it will definitely kind of be there and be around. And I think one first step is just Ethereum needs to be inevitable, right? like I that that's what we talked about earlier the special role that Ethereum I think can play can play in the economy but someone needs to needs to actually like go and make that happen and once it is clear for everyone that like that is the role that Ethereum is certain to play that is so that that is step one right like just d-risk Ethereum is here to stay Ethereum has the special role and Ethereum is inevitable and so then and then step two is once once you've d-rised that part once it's clear that Ethereum is is basically coming at this in a position from of strength then you define the specific role of each within that. Um, how about value acrruel? Like like how does it all fit together? And we're not here to like today have all the answers. Obviously not, right? But like the the core insight is the very simple one is really just basically it's it's important that the people that work on actually like evolving the system have eat in mind when they do that, right? Like that that's as simple as it I think as as that insight really gets.

The EF has uh talked about exactly what its focuses are and as we've talked about it's the crops stuff. it's centr resistance being immune to capture all this kind of stuff. There's a lack of uh scaling I think out of discussion out of the EF. So when it comes to you know ELABS a new research and development arm for Ethereum you guys are going to be working with and evolving the Ethereum protocol. What are like the the swim lanes or the tracks of work that ETH Labs is taking responsibility for? What are you guys going to do to make Ethereum inevitable? Push Ethereum into that slot that Ongar is talking about where it is the one central hub of all internet finance. Uh so how do you guys actually do work to push Ethereum into that spot? What are you guys focused on?

>> The way we start is we we we basically we start with where does Ethereum needs to go and then we reason backwards, right? And so clearly like we're not here today with all the the work streams perfectly light up. Um, we have the machinery right we are uh we have um in many for me it's 7 years of of of uh experience in the core research space for many of us it's it's it's similar basically like we're deeply familiar with like how to evolve the Ethereum protocol so it's like the machinery of of of that like being a like and and then combining that with with with the direction and then and then the question of like what what are the the specific steps necessary so sorry maybe a general answer and then I can I can give some details so for example you mentioned scaling right So I was leading that topic um at at the tempation for the last year um and uh basically coming in saying like hey it really is important that not just the L2s are scaling with blobs and that remains by the way a crucial priority but also that that the one is in a strong place and so then um we we started that process with upcoming lumpsam hard um there will be a huge um um m scaling benefit coming out of that um as much as like 4x um kind of scaling throughut and and the more important thing is to to put Ethereum basically on a on a a permanent scaling trajectory. So I've been floating this this this this this goal of like um 3x scaling per year. I think that's very um achievable. Um and that's now now how does it map to basically the collaboration with with with the Etheum foundation with with ELABS. Um some of this of course day one we we have we have to figure this out concretely but but it my my impression at least is I don't want to speak too much for the Ethium Foundation. impression is that scaling is less of a priority now for the Etheum foundation that as you already said it's naturally comes out out of the mandate um and so that's a natural topic for us to basically come in and and have an impact and then there's many other of the of these topics so there is um there's there's there's things like um time to finality time to inclusion there's things like um data scaling for the L2s there is um maybe beyond just the core protocol because that's that's where more coming from but but the way we actually we internally we're structuring it is um uh chain which is anything core protocol related and then platform and growth and so platform are topics that are more about the direct like topics at the intersection between between the the chain and and the actual applications the builders. So that's things like interoperability, right? Like you can only you can only actually succeed at being the central node in the in the onchain economy if there's actually a direct and tangible benefit to being part of that you know united chains of Ethereum. So having very like it's it's been talked about for a long time but like practically how can you actually drive towards seamless interoperability giving L2s and Ethereum as this unified bundle superpowers and network effects right so that that all the the other chains want to want to come join join that um and how do you design it in a way that actually like brings value back to Ethereum and to ETH right like again that that's the same the same theme that that we touch upon there um other kind of more like platforms intersection topics are things like um uh block construction, right? like how how basically like what what kinds of we you've there there's these uh you've seen the like the the the clubm designs there's like a lot of innovation happening there and like how can how can Ethereum help unlock a lot of a lot of the innovation there um and then on on growth it's fully fully transparent that's that's the most like new for us um domain and so they're really like for now it's more about putting a stake in the in the ground and saying like hey it's actually really important that the people that contribute to evolving the Etheum protocol do that with some awareness of what are the actual applications right like um we've talked about finance before DeFi obviously like DeFi is the the frontier of you know financial technologies and like what are the needs the constraints for DeFi builders um and how can you propagate that back into changes to to to the to the to the protocol itself and the other way around how can you actually like make the properties that Ethereum uniquely has directly tangibly available to these protocols in a way that makes a difference. So I don't know this was bit of a broad answer but hopefully it gave like an initial impression and then obviously over the coming weeks we'll go into much more detail and give much more concrete um um examples there.

Is it fair to say that with the talent that East Labs has uh the founding members Onsgar, Casper, that's you too, but also Barnaby, Josh Rudolfph, Julian, Julian Ma, some heavy hitters when it comes to just Ethereum protocol talent, immense immense amount of just years of experience and just like talent density there. And uh the this this org was all focused on something about Ethereum. Ongar, you've been working on scaling. I know Josh Rudolph has been working on interop. Um, and so now that the EF has reduced their scope and also now that we have Ethabs, is it fair to say that all of these people are simply now taking the responsibility that they once had at the EF putting it under ETHLabs and now that they have this new organization? They have a little bit more freedom, tolerance, uh, ability to be maybe more aggressive in pursuing these these goals and objectives. And it's all these people are still working on the same things, but now they're just doing it under Ethlabs. Is that a fair articulation?

>> I actually don't think that's that's quite right. I think um a I don't want to speak too much for the Tim Foundation. It's also like of course currently reshaping and that means that some of the work streams that we um started and or owned there. Um, we will continue also inside of the foundation. Um, it's not not not as black and white and we will in some cases also just collaborate on these then. Um, but also um, it's not going to be the case that we will continue all the all the work that that would have done in the past. It really is important. We we're starting as a team of five. Um, we have plans to hire beyond that but really stay ultimately very lean, very very um talent dense. Um, and so there is really a limit of we we basically we have to be very selective at the work streams that we take on. There's a new a lot of new work streams that we've not done in the past that we want to take on. So um, it's not just a direct continuation. Um, the one way in which I do think it is going to be at least to some extent true of course is that all of us we didn't wake up yesterday or like you know last week and all of a sudden had all these new ideas right like a lot of this had been already self- selected I mean I I was really pushing very hard for scaling last year and because I believed it was important back then and I still believe it is important today so of course there's a lot of continuation of beliefs of around priorities

>> maybe just to double click on that um collaborative nature here I think um it is kind deeply collaborative between Ethlabs and DF. Um, just last week actually we were kind of participating together in a research um offsite and so I I I don't expect um this to be as clear of a split on on all fronts and just yeah deeply collaborative um and synergistic as well.

What opportunity does being under a new organization in a new organization afford ETH Labs? Uh like what can you guys do now or are excited to do that you weren't able to do prior under the older old organization?

I think the Etheum Foundation really is um very much shaping up its own role and that just like means that some of the things already some of the things that we have been doing are now less directly in scope for for an for the organization but then also like many of the things we'll be excited about starting to do right like specifically say having a very clear vision around like the role of Ethereum >> in the future of of of these of these financial systems and really like going and talking to the finance builders and figuring out like how can we just unblock them, right? Like just like very simple. I mean, we've had um conversations with with with um already Hayden from Uniswap. Just like very simple just like hey, >> what what what concretely right now would make your life easier, right? And and these kind of things I think are just not things that that that that like yeah, they always needs to be like the ultimate neutral neutral guardian. I think I would maybe describe it a bit like a monastery like a like a like like the Vatican of Ethereum. And that's very powerful. the Vatican has been has played a very important role for the last 2,000 years. It's it's it's an important role, but it's also of course like the Vatican doesn't do everything, you know. Um, and so, um being able to just really lean in to to topics when we see them, being able to just have opinions, um, you know, have opinions on ETH. Um, it's not like we didn't have them when we were at the F, but while we were at the F, it's maybe we're less able to act on them, right? So basically like um it it it just seems like on on many many uh in many different dimensions also just culturally being able to just really lean into the um synergies between maybe different ways of approaching um helping Ethereum. I think there's there's a lot of opportunity of just having different orcs that approach the topic from or the the challenge from very different angles.

>> Obviously having the benefit of starting fresh also means we're small, we're lean, um we can bring that startup culture a bit. We're nonprofit, but um we can operate a bit differently just by virtue of size. And I think one thing we're also incredibly excited about is is kind of yes operating with that accountability, with that mentality and and being a talent magnet and and operate in this yeah lean and exciting environment.

What I'm hearing from from your guys's answers is that it's so what I'm hoping to hear is that ETH Labs is going to be responsive to market forces. Now, like you guys have said, the word startup mentality even though you're a nonprofit, you are lean, you can ship fast. These are all like startup words. And what I what I think the broad Ethereum community wants and what I would like to see in Ethereum is something like the EF that responds to market forces and is aligned with the market and is like pro markets and progrowth and again pro points. Is that kind of the philosophy of of Ethlabs is thinking like a startup? Thinking about how do we make Ethereum relevant to the marketplace, respond to market interests and desires and wants. Is that is that what Ethlabs is for?

>> Yeah, I I mean, I like this a lot how you word this right now. I think we are very clearly pro markets. We're very pro growth. Um, now, of course, we need to prove out what does that mean in practice, right? Like I think um uh what does it mean to to be um responsive to to market forces to to to ETH? I think um I don't know. I actually had I had Coin Market Cap open earlier today. I had a look and I think right now it actually surprised me to see there's only eight if you if you take out the stable coins. There's only eight um crypto assets above $10 billion market cap. Um, that's not a lot. And there's only two above hundred billion um Bitcoin and ETH. Um, so in many ways of course Ethereum is already in a unique position right like Ethereum has in many ways had a lot of success now the problem is it had that success 5 years ago right like we already were at that exact level 5 years ago and so the market is right now expressing like hey guys yes you you kind of won round one but what's round two like what's your next goal like what actually like you know like there's nothing it doesn't seem like there's you're not necessarily growing towards anything more ambitious now um and So really to me internally at least our prompt has been what does it take for ETH you know to become a trillion dollar asset right like that's >> there's not actually that there's not that many trillion dollar asset there's a bunch of trillion dollar asset categories there's not that many individual trillion dollar assets on on earth um so what what does it take for ETH to be a trillion dollar asset um and for us that will be one of our north stars and again it would I think be a bit full of ourselves if we came up today here and we had like the answer for how to make Ether trillion dollar asset that's going to be a huge project. It's going to be a huge project for the entire community. But I think it is important that we are in a position where we can be that bridge. We can we can be the the part the the entity that goes and talks to the people that actually really want to take on that mission and then we can go and we can actually talk and with the the other people that actually helps steward Ethereum and we can work together to to to make that outcome happen.

Trillion dollar assets are rare. At its peak, if Ether was at 600 billion, which is somewhat within striking distance of a trillion dollar asset. So, I think the proof of concept is proven out at least sufficiently enough for you, somebody who's been there disbelief and be like, "Yeah, I could imagine a world where ETH gets to 1 trillion." I wanted to take this framing back to the idea of Ethereum is a special blockchain. There is a place there's a placeholder there's a slot an empty slot in the world for a single global hub of internet finance that is you know interoperable strong super secure highly scalable and you guys want to take Ethereum and put it there and once it's there you know once the key goes into the lock maybe we unlock the trillion dollar asset you know some few a few steps needs to happen I'm sure for that to happen but nonetheless making Ethereum shape be the shape to fit into the lock and unlock that opportunity is I think your guys's goal. What does that look like in terms of let's say we go into like 10 years from now and ETHLabs has done the protocol upgrades that it wants to do to Ethereum. It's talked to the DeFi developers. It's talked to Wall Street. It's asked what their problems are. It's learned what their problems are. It's incorporated them into EIPs and it's shipped it into Ethereum. And that this is over the next 10 years. I know you guys have a lot of like market research to do in order to answer some of these questions, but I think we have our intuitions now like what of what Ethereum needs to look like to unlock that opportunity. So paint me a picture of what you guys want Ethereum to look like as a protocol in about 10 years from now. What can it do? What it has it achieved? And then we can talk about what properties that imbuss ether the asset.

>> I mean the the ingredients are clear, right? Like so basically um as more and more of actual financial flows you know the the global economy however you want to say it comes on chain um it's clearly not all just going to be just all within a single kind of like layer like all all Ethereum L1 that's that's that's obviously never going to happen. So like it they there's always going to be a structure of there's there's going to be more permission zones, there's going to be more app specific zones, there's going to be more um for all different kinds of use cases, geographic um um um specifications. So so so we we will see this this continued explosion of like activity in in in all kinds of different ways and formats. Um, and for Ethereum to in that world be in a a special and strong role, I think a few things need need to be true about it. And then we can talk about like okay like what what what specific properties are. So like one I think it's clear that that needs a very strong chain at at the core, right? So like what does it mean for Ethereum to be a strong chain? Well, scale scaling is one, right? Like you can't I think at at even at today's throughput levels that's just not good enough, right? you you need to be able to really have a lot of L1 available box space. You need to have a lot of the actual interconnecting activity happen on the L1. So that is like the the liquidity a lot of the like the the actual like trading trade balances balancing between between the individual zones has to happen directly. It has to be able to happen directly on the L1. Um, and of course you need to have an asset and for now again the question is how do we get there? You have to have an asset that is valuable enough to actually be able to secure the entire load of, you know, like I think Justin once gave a talk. I'm not sure if if it's online, but like I think it was called like one credillion um you know like something something like Ethereum to one quadrillion because I think if you roughly sum up all the assets in the entire world, you maybe get to like one quadrillion dollars and and so like how do you basically secure one quadrillion dollars? Well, you know, you need an asset at the core. Um, there is this kind of this multiplier like you don't need literally a quadrillion dollar like so sorry to one yes ETH won't swallow the entirety of all all global value but but you do you do need like you you can't do it with today's market cap that's just like that that wouldn't be good enough right so like in that success case if we just describe it before we we talk about how do we get there each will have to also have found a role that makes it very very valuable um and it has it means that interconnections between the individual like parts and I keep saying zones because L2s is like the the way that works today. But in a way that's an implementation detail, right? Like there could even be like just just special gated parts of the L1 directly. It could be all kinds of different construction. It doesn't really matter. But the interconnections, the interlinks between them have to be like very strong, very robust and very efficient. So um what that means is like basically like if I have an asset on any part of the Ethereum um you know United chains of Ethereum um it needs to be like instant to transfer that from there to anywhere else without having any kind of worry that there might be a link that's breaking that gets corrupted that that that that makes my asset kind of gets lost lost in transit. Um, it means that I'm I I'm able to like reuse my asset that I have on in place A as collateral in place B, right? Like all of these types of like just natural network effects, right? I sometimes we, you know, we have we've started talking more and more with with with different builders in Ethereum. you talk to the L2 builders and um they're all very open to to talk about value acrruel and how can Ethereum more benefit from these relationships but they also say hey how do we also like this needs to be mutually beneficial and being in L2 today is good but somehow it hasn't fully realized its full potential right like like like we there's so much more of superpowers so much more network effects that that you need that you could get that you need to get from being part of this construction it needs to be a no-brainer that if I come on chain if I launch a new chain a new whatever it needs to be a no-brainer that of course I do this in Ethereum otherwise I'm losing out on all of these benefits right and today it's not a no-brainer today the friction is also too high but but more importantly the the upside is is is not is not clear enough and so so that that that all needs to be fixed we need a super strong L1 and then there is just no way that Ethereum will be the special chain if we do not solve intop once and for all so I think that will be um quite exciting to to work through

Now I know that there are is now like a delegation of responsibilities that we think is harmonious. ETHLabs wants to put points on the board. The EF wants to preserve Ethereum soul. Each each organization can optimize for what they think is important. And that's, you know, the beauty of having separate organizations. At the same time, there's only one metaphorical steering wheel on the ship and only so many hands can go on the ship. There was a pretty interesting article from Trent, another former EF member who really talked about um the strength of the legitimacy around the Ethereum Foundation. The Ethereum Foundation has the ICO funds. It has Lindy. It has Vitalic. It has literally www.ethereum.org. It has the at ethereum handle. it has the the process of knowledge of of submitting EIPs and coordinating hard forks. And so ETH Labs I want and I think you guys want too. Eth labs I want ETH Labs hands to go on the steering wheel as well. And that means that like there's a little bit of tension is like are we going left or are we going right? What I'm what I would like is I want ETH Labs to pick a direction and step on the gas and I don't always know if the EF is all maybe they want to slam the brakes. And so when it comes to actually creating EIP, shipping them into Ethereum, merging them into the blockchain, how do you how does uh ETH Labs think about this question of who calls the shots?

>> In my mind, it's um less mutually exclusive. Um, and I think I think the important thing is that we're all we're all here for the same reasons. Um, we all know what makes Ethereum special. And um, I think it's actually extremely bullish to have one or that is laser focused on keeping Ethereum special and another or laser focused on kind of exporting that um, uh, to the world. And so I I I don't necessarily see it as u mutually exclusive at all. Um, in in fact I think the only reason why we can be laser focused um on kind of scaling that to the world is because the EF is is kind of so focused on on maintaining and strengthening um the core properties. And obviously, I mean, there will potentially be kind of questions on like how do you prioritize a hard fork, like what goes in into that fork and what goes into the next fog. Sure. But I think I think like as long as we all have the same end vision, I'm very confident that um it's it's not going to be too confusing.

Does ETH Labs and the EF have the same end vision for Ethereum?

>> Ultimately, I'm convinced that that's the case. I think from from conversations that that that that I've had that that we've had, I think there are some differences around uh path dependency like we really feel this that this moment in time is important that we can't just first get all the tech out of the way make sure that Ethereum is perfectly robust this postquantum secure is everything and then start um bringing the broader um um um financial system onto Ethereum. it needs to happen in parallel but that's really just a um difference in opinion maybe on like on order of work streams and so these work streams can complement each other can happen in parallel um ultimately again like we are not trying to change what Ethereum's core identity is what makes Ethereum Ethereum I think sometimes I' I've seen this a lot like there's a lot of frustration sometimes in the community and I'm part of the community I share some of these the same frustration sometimes but sometimes that ends up in throwing the baby out with the bath Like the answer is also not to like just run Ethereum like a company. I see I've sometimes seen this like that that is again that that's so misunderstanding like well you know then now now we're fighting about like a you know like a pie that's much smaller than what Ethereum already has achieved right like like that's also not

The answer, like the answer, is to just like double down on the unique strengths. Just do it with an actual like excitement about adoption, about like about achieving the outcomes. And so, I really think that the ultimate vision is the same. It's just the way to get there and the things to prioritize in the outer. And so that's why we don't want to be naive, and it's not going to be without tensions ever. And like, yes, there will be hard forks where maybe we have different ideas about priorities, um, but ultimately, I think it's deeply synergistic. And and also, in terms of hard forks, like we've now gone 30, 40 minutes without even mentioning core once, right? And like, um, actually, Ethereum has always been actually decentralized in ways where it really matters. And, um, the EF is, um, very, very important for charting a path, charting a course. But ultimately, in terms of like what to prioritize in the short term and and and the actual work of making all of all of these things happen, that has been always like distributed among a lot of shoulders, a lot of like exceptional, very, very talented shoulders. And and and those people are will continue to be around. And so I think I don't think it's like going from one to two here. It's really just it's more going from, you know, from n to n plus one. DF talks about the multi-node, um, kind of Ethereum, uh, and in a lot of ways, I think you can even think of it as as client diversity. So on the tech layer, we actually have this client diversity, and it it makes Ethereum extremely resilient. And this resilience also comes at some cost, right? Like there is it makes shipping hard forks harder. It means you have a bunch of teams that need to kind of, um, uh, work together to to. And so basically, the development process becomes a bit more expensive, and there's coordination cost, but you get this insane resilience. And this resilience is also precisely what makes Ethereum special and what gives it a shot at reaching global scale. Um, and so I think in a way, this sort of multi-node future is precisely kind of bringing this client diversity mentality to the ecosystem. And so yes, there will be some tensions, but I think we're all kind of working towards the same end goal. And so I think it's actually just incredibly, I'm incredibly bullish.

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Now, I want to ask just some like logistical questions about uh ETH Labs and the formation. It's it's a nonprofit. Uh it's funded by Bitmine and Sharplink and a bunch of just individual contributors. Talk about just the funding uh element of ETH Labs. How much like runway do you guys have uh as well? Just like talk talk about all of that.

To us, we we thought a lot about it and we spoke about startup culture before, etc. And I think again, it's like we want to have a startup culture, but like we're also very, very explicit about wanting to be a nonprofit. In our mind, it's like the only way to do the type of work and kind of stewardship that we want to do. Um, and that just like requires, um, the neutrality and sort of aligned incentives or in fact, sort of no, um, no incentives in in some sense. Um, and so that was extremely important to us. Um, that's just something I wanted to to to frontload on the funding side. Yeah, as you said, like, um, there's Bitmine, Sharpling, Joe Luben are sort of our, um, our core donors. And I mean, from our perspective, it's like very natural, right? Like, basically their job is buying and holding ETH, and and we care about Ethereum and ETH, and so I think they, it's just a very natural, um, um, kind of match here. And in general, they just also really get it, right? They they want us to be neutral, they want us to be independent, and just get the work done. And so it's been, yeah, very grateful to to to, um, have this kind of, uh, long-term thinking also on the funding side. And then beyond, uh, beyond that, we have like, it was kind of kind of incredible support from across the entire ecosystem from like over 50 people, um, and and entities, sort of, yeah, honestly very humbling, uh, to see, really. It's been a quite the Ethereum moment in a way. Um, we had core devs, builders, D5 founders, community members. Um, so yeah, quite quite special. Um, I think you touched on runway as well. Um, without going into sort of the specific specifics here, um, we have like solid two, three year runway, um, with kind of, uh, ambitious, um, hiring goals. When I say ambitious, I like we intend to be sort of lean but just world-class talent. Um, and so yeah, it's, it's, uh, we're here to stay as well. Um, beyond that.

Mhm. Yeah. Is is there a plan for just like indefinite long-term financial longevity? Like I maybe your funding is an ETH. You stake the ETH and then you actually just consume the yield out of something like that. I don't know. But what's the plan for just existing for forever?

One thing that is quite nice actually about sort of the need of, I mean, basically we're a nonprofit, right? We don't want to get distracted with generating revenue. We want to be laser focused. And so what that means is we're going to need, uh, more money eventually, right? And so the nice thing is, it it means we're kind of accountable. Like we need to be impactful to to be successful at kind of, uh, continued, um, funding streams, generating, uh, funding streams. And so I think this accountability is actually, um, yeah, it's, it's, I think it's going to be quite powerful, um, to avoid maybe also some of the, um, the nonprofit failures otherwise. And so in terms of continued funding, yeah, I mean, basically deliver impactful work, uh, on the one hand, like most importantly. And then secondly, I think yes, there are kind of possible setups, um, still early days exploring, um, things like you said, kind of, uh, funding streams, um, etc. Um, but yeah, we'll share more on that when we get there. We're all just too aware of the failure cases of nonprofits, right? Like, like it's very easy to just start be completely disconnected from any kind of real-world feedback because in a company, in a startup, you get that immediately. You either find product market fit or you don't. In a startup, you can for a long time just like dilute yourselves about doing something useful. So we actually, um, really like this structure where for now, um, we, our plan is in a year, we come back to the the to the community and we're like, hey, this is our track record. This is what we've concretely done for you. Is that does that look as a bundle like that was that was that actually created enough value that you would want us to keep existing and to keep funding us? And I think that's actually that's a really good forcing function and that aligns us directly with, we have a, you know, broad coalition. So it really aligns us with both the ETH holders and the builders. Those are the two categories of, you know, of different entities that will, if we, if we are successful, that will directly benefit from from our operation. Um, so, so basically being in this accountability loop with them is is very important. And then we are, I will just tease this a little bit. We are looking into ways in which we can maybe separately be in a place where if we are successful in the ambition to also really help ETH, you know, that if if basically there's like a big success case there, how can we then maybe leverage that into more like long-term sustainable, um, funding where then then we no longer have to, you know, basically once we once we are at the end of our like of our of our path there and like it's basically okay, we actually like we're successful there, how can that actually like then turn into more like long-term sustainable, um, funding, um, yeah, but more on this, um, later.

Just on the implementation details of the relationship with Bitmine and Sharplink, is is there an ongoing relationship with Bitmine and Sharplink or was it just like a free and clear donation just like everyone else's donation?

We'll talk about some of the specifics of of of the funding, um, and the accountability and all these things, um, at at a later point. Um, it's just very, very clear. There's no, no strings attached. There's no specific, like, you know, take, you you will keep getting money if you do X. Um, actually, as as Kas was saying, it was like a very, um, mutually, like the conversation from the very beginning, both sides were basically like, of course, this needs neutrality, this needs independence, otherwise it makes no sense. Like if if you end up being the, you know, like the Bitman entity or something like that, that that that wouldn't work. Um, and we were actually, we're very grateful for that, that that understanding was there. At the same time, I, we actively want to have direct and strong partnerships, relationships with the builders and the ETH holders. And those two two entities in particular, Bitmine and Sharpink, they are the two largest individual ETH holders out there. And so we will have strong partnerships with them, but they're not that is separate from the funding.

Uh, you guys are hiring. Who and what are you hiring for? What's the role? What's the kind of talent that you guys are looking for?

So today, basically, who we are hiring for is, or the way I would say it is, we really wanted to put up our bat signal and we would wanted to be like, hey, this is a description of who we are, what we think Ethereum needs in this moment in time, what we want to do, um, and see, is there like, are there people, exceptional people in the ecosystem, just in general, that that that hear this and that hear the calling and want to to join us, join the the founding team from from the very start. And we've actually, we've been overwhelmed. Like we we didn't expect to be that successful. We we've had like hundreds of of of inbounds already, like people reaching out. And so if anyone is listening to this and hasn't heard back from us yet, like please, you know, like we, it's, it's, it's, it's a bit overwhelming. We're working through it and and there's amazing talent among us. So really, like the first, the first step here is just to see, is that like anyone that we can bring on immediately that like just like is just absolutely exceptional, right? Um, and then we talked about a bit earlier. I felt like I gave this a very long, winding answer about about work streams. Basically, over the coming weeks and months, we will, well, over the coming weeks, we will basically more, more, more announce and and have defined the specific individual work streams. And then at that point, we will have more specific open positions, more like targeted hires for individual work streams.

How can the community support people like me or just the average daily listener or anyone in the Ethereum community? How can we best support you to help you guys get your job done?

Holding us accountable, um, giving feedback, and um, kind of pointing out pain points. I think just we, we're really going to sort of try and be close to both the community, but also just the builders and, um, and kind of really leverage those insights. Um, and then yeah, I think this is the most critical. And then obviously separately, we spoke about funding, um, we do accept donations, um, at ETH Labs. But yeah, I think more critical is like we, we really want to have this like tight feedback loop, be transparent, work in the open, um, yeah, and like as Anska said, like we are hiring, and I think honestly, it's, it's pretty exciting. And I think if you're kind of an exceptional talent and and this mission is, um, inspiring, um, I think yeah, there's, there's a lot to be done.

One thing I've been, uh, thinking of, uh, when I talk with Ryan on the weekly roll-up or broadly, is, um, maybe I'm a little bit impatient about the arc of crypto as a project and the crypto industry as a whole. Um, and so like I'm, I'm looking at the the Bitcoin chart and I'm like, man, why aren't we at like a $4 million? And and like I'm looking at like Ethereum and being like, why isn't all of finance on chain yet? And I realized like, you know what, Ethereum is 11 years old, still pretty young. Uh, and so perhaps perhaps the whole crypto story is just takes a something closer to like a lifetime than simply a decade. Uh, and Onsgar, Cosper, you guys have been in my leaders in Ethereum for my entire lifetime in Ethereum. And so you guys have already contributed a lifetime of work to Ethereum. And I'm very excited that you guys are going to continue adding another lifetime of work to Ethereum. Hopefully that sounds exciting and not daunting. Um, but just thank you for, uh, taking on the challenge that I think Ethereum needs to take on as a, as a project, as a, as a community. Um, putting points on the board, I think is the most important thing for Ethereum right now. And what I'm seeing here out of ETH Labs is is what I would hope to see for Ethereum to like complete what feels like its destiny and its quest arc that it perhaps has gotten a little bit, uh, distracted or off track with in the last few years or so. Um, but like I'm excited. I hope the best for you guys. Uh, and I'm here to support you guys along the way, whichever, whichever, however I can. Uh, and so those are my words for you guys.

Before we wrap up, I actually, um, had a question. I mentioned a little off air already, and I'm not sure if you if you thought it was a joke or anything, but I, you know, like you, you're known a little in the community for your paper hands, let me put it this way, you know, and, uh, you're you're like a,

Paper hands. I don't know if eight years of holding counts as paper hands. I'm just teasing you. But I, I actually do believe like, look, I, I actually think many of your, much of your criticism rang true to me as well. But I really think again, it's not indefinite optimism. I don't think we can just sit back and just wait for Ethereum to win for ETH to win. I do think though, there is a very exciting price here, and I think there is a real shot that Ethereum has. And so I just wanted to, you know, just come here and just ask you, like, point blank, like, do you, would you consider this is a good entry point? Like, would you consider starting to rebuild your ETH position?

Look, I, I'm looking at the ETH chart and I'm like, this is what a deal looks like right now. This, this is cheap. This is where one would buy. And I absolutely do take the argument that trillion-dollar assets are rare. And in addition to that, Ethereum has the potential to fill that one singular slot of the center, host the center hub of all global finance. Seeing organizations like ETH Labs being like, yes, and we know that, and we're going to push the ball up the hill to make it fit into that slot. These are all the pieces of the puzzle. And so there is an alignment of things that all feel directionally correct.

I don't want to, as Mr. Paper Hands, I don't want to commit to anything here live on the podcast, but I do see the vision. And the fact that that vision is being held by effective, competent people who want to push the ball up the hill is exciting to me.

That's good enough. I'll let you stew on it.

Casper, uh, you guys have had a very busy week with the launch of ETHs. I'm sure next week is going to be just as busy, but what are you guys doing next? Like, what's the next thing you're going to do after we log off from this podcast, uh, and maybe you're done with some of the bureaucracy of getting the organization spun up? Like, never mind all that. When when it comes to actually pushing the ball up the hill, what comes first?

Yeah. So of course, as you said, there like there's a lot of still just like the tedious things of just starting an organization, getting all of this one-time thing out out of the door. Um, we're also wrapping up some some continued fundraising. So all of this will take up, you know, two, three more weeks. And in parallel, we are now very actively working towards, we want to really have all our work streams clearly defined. We'll also communicate this probably on a rolling basis, like, hey, this is this work stream, and we're starting this work stream, and we're starting, um, with with explanations of like, why, why is that impactful? How can you hold us accountable for them? These kind of things. And then hiring. So really, like, I think, kind of like wrapping up the getting off the ground, um, work streams and hiring, those, those, those are the the the immediate priorities. And then and then of course, not to forget to mention, really, like feedback, feedback, feedback. Um, a lot of people we have already talked to, um, over the behind the scenes over the past weeks, and a lot more people to still, uh, talk to.

Jump on the next call, uh, get hiring, uh, get started. Still day one, infinite work, and, uh, a lot of excitement.

I don't know if, uh, the Ethereum community considers Bankless an Ethereum podcast anymore. I still do. Um, but you guys are free to come back on the podcast at any time to talk about what you guys are up to, what you're building, what your needs are, whatever you want to communicate. So, uh, I intend to continue to make Bankless the best Ethereum podcast out there. Um, and you guys are, if you guys are interested, you guys are welcome to help me out in doing that.

Yeah. Thank you, David.

You know what, you know what it'll take.

Yes. Counselor, thanks for coming on the show and, uh, congratulations on the new jobs. Technically, I think you guys all got new jobs. So, that's that's pretty exciting. And you guys have a pretty big job to do, and I think everyone is out here just supporting you guys.

Yeah. Thank you very much. This was a great conversation, and, uh, now we actually have to follow through. So,

Yeah.

Look forward to that. Thank you.

Bank Nation, y'all know the deal. Crypto is risky. You can lose what you put in. But nonetheless, this is Frontier. It's not for everyone. And we are glad you're with us on the Bankless journey. Thanks a lot.