Jeffrey Epstein & Steve Bannon: The Full Interview

Before we get into the deep stuff, let's just talk. Let's give some basics or some things I want to do inquiry from the others. Walk me through the Santa Fe Institute. What, what was it about the time at the math? And this was in the late 90s. So, they're not going to hear me on this part, right? We're going to do it both ways.

>> It will not be on the video, but we do have you recorded.

>> Fine. Remember, when you're answering the questions, I'm not in the shot and they're never going to hear my voice. So a little bit you got to repeat the in your answer, you got to repeat what my question was.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Um, Santa Fe Institute, why, when you're at the top of your game on Wall Street, do you decide to finance, which was at the time, or endow, or become the donor sponsor, however you want to say it, for what was considered the most cutting-edge group of mathematicians in the world?

>> Uh, so, Santa Fe Institute in the late 80s, early 90s. I was interested as I was on the board of Rockefeller. So that starts Rockefeller University, formed by John D. Rockefeller to sort of give back to the community. It's east side of Manhattan, except it was old. It was sort of old-fashioned. They were talking about medicine and medicine by itself was again subject to the ideas of science. They were trying to find, use science to find cures for disease, and I said, "No, we need to do something different. We need to start interdisciplinary work."

>> How did a schmuck like you get on the board of Rockefeller? What year was that?

>> I don't remember. Late, I think '89 or '91.

>> So that's one of the most prestigious research places in the world, correct?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. How did a guy like you get on the board of Rock, a blueblood, internationally known, known internationally known, uh, hard research, Nobel Prize winners all over the place? How do they pick a, a guy like you, a trader from, or basically some guy from Bear Stearns?

>> Good question. So, I was asked to be on the board of Rockefeller and I think it was, I was on the board of Rockefeller. Uh, there was a money manager who said, "Rockefeller needs someone with financial expertise because the university is growing and there's lots of new things." You have to, again, we go back to the, the original discussion the last time, in the up until the mid-80s or sort of early 70s, the most important thing was your name. If you were Rockefeller, you already were considered to be brilliant. If you were a head of General Motors, it was your reputation. It was who you knew, who your family was, what was your character. And then in the mid-70s, basically, if you remember, you probably had a calculator. It was very advanced in those days to have a Texas Instruments calculator where it could, by putting in the numbers, it would multiply for you, do square roots. And that was the first. And everyone who had a calculator was already advanced on Wall Street. A simple calc, almost like your accountant.

[clears throat]

The most important parts of business were really now going to calculations. So it's not only mathematics, but it's things that could be calculated. Reputation couldn't be calculated. I could give you, are you a 10 on a reputation scale, an eight? What does it mean to have a measurement of your reputation? We'll get to that later. But people, places like Rockefeller needed someone to say, "Look, we are entering a different world where numbers and the numbers of companies, portfolio management was going to be balanced. It was going to be statistical." Jeffrey, could you come on the board, potentially sit on the finance committee? Nancy Kissinger and a bunch of other people. And David Rockefeller and I got along very well. He was just, he was this unbelievable human being, respectful to everyone. He introduced his driver as his colleague, not his driver. He would never say, "This is my driver." He said, "It's my colleague." And David started to explain to me world politics. So David would say, "Jeffrey, money is going to be sort of the most important thing. People don't understand money. You seem to have this knack for money." I said to David, "Tell me about your life. What was the worst and the best part of your life?" So David said, "When I grew up, everyone knew I was a Rockefeller. They didn't know that my father told me he would not leave me a dime, no money. But every time we went out to eat, me and my five friends at school, they would leave me the bill. They would expect me to pick up the check because I was a Rockefeller." And he said, "I was chairman of Chase Bank." And he said, "I remember like it was yesterday, one of the headlines in Time magazine said, 'David, please fire yourself.'" So he thought that there was a, a world that existed in that would be a combination of both politics and business and leadership. What do I mean? He formed something called the Trilateral Commission. The Trilateral Commission is some spooky stuff. People said it was some of the people that the Illuminati, there's some mystery about it. People that ran the world. It was politicians. But David said, "Most countries, the politicians get elected for four years or eight years, separate from the royal families in England or in the Middle East. Someone's there for four years and then they're not there anymore. The most important people to have stability and consistency would be businessmen." So he formed this Trilateral Commission of businessmen and politicians from three major continents. So it was the North Americans, the Europeans, and the Asians. So he said to me, "Would you like to be on the Trilateral Commission?" Now, I was 30 years old, 32 years old. I said, "Great." And he said, "Well, you have to fill out this application so they have your bio." And I looked at the list of people. And it was Bill Clinton, former president of the United States, um, Paul Volcker, every great leader in America, the Asians, the Japanese, and with a, a very long description of their history. And they asked me to fill in what I would like to have written. And I wrote, "Jeffrey Epstein, just a good kid," which I thought was funny. Nobody else did.

Um, so, answer to what your question at that time, I recognized around the world that monies and currencies were not really well understood. But again, it was only numbers. So numbers, and I'll get to the fact that it was bad thinking. It's numbers are very good.

>> Are most people, are most people you meet, even on the Trilateral Commission, when you meet most people, do you find most leaders financially illiterate?

>> Economically illiterate. Most, again, most political leaders don't come out of a background of finance. Most political leaders come out of a background of being popular. So in some of the countries, in some of the African countries, for example, they might have been a military person, they were a general. In some of the African countries, they might have been a disc jockey, or in our country, they would have been an actor. The knowledge of money isn't, they don't have expertise. They have no degrees in finance. They really, what, and this is one of the major problems. Their expertise, if they have any financial knowledge, is of their own checking account or bank account and filling in their own taxes. So many world leaders who don't really have a financial underpinning make fundamental errors when it comes to money on a country or institutional level. Let me give you an example. If you, Mr. Bannon, if I said your assets increased last year, you'd say, "That's, well, that sounds pretty good." And I said, "What does that mean to you?" You'd say, "Well, I have more money. I guess I'm, I'm wealthier." I'd say, "Yes." And if you had, if your debt increased, would you, would you feel wealthier or poorer? You say, "Well, I don't want to have increased debt. I don't like the idea of that. Sounds increased debt." Now, that, and world leaders understand when their assets go up, they feel better. However, institutions like banks, things that people don't really understand are financial underpinnings of banks. When I say your bank, Mr. Bannon, you have the Bannon Bank, you doubled your assets. Sounds good. But what does it really mean? It means people owe you more money. You don't have any money. More money? What? Yeah, a bank's assets are how much it is owed by other people. That's crazy. So if the bank goes from $2 billion of assets to $10 billion, it means people owe it an additional $8 billion, and they, but their assets have gone up. So the terminology of assets and liabilities is different for banks. It's not natural. And what most people, and you ask questions about world leaders, there's many people, I think your old boss Mercer understood. There's a fundamental part of money which is called fractionalized banking. And fractionalized banking is something that finance people understand. And the people on the street, and when I say people on the street, that's where I was when I started on Wall Street, would find it impossible to believe. Impossible. Why? Bank and bank. I give you $1. Just one single dollar. In our system of banking, I would say, "Okay, Steve, I gave you a dollar. How much could you lend out to your friends?" And your natural reaction would be, "Probably something less than a dollar because I want to keep something in my pocket." The way our system works is if I, you as a bank are holding my dollar, you can lend out an additional eight or nine dollars.

>> No, it's impossible. I only have a dollar, Jeffrey.

>> We have something called fractionalized reserves, which is if you have one, you can lend out nine. That's the way our system works. And so not only do world leaders not understand banking, but the man on the street, my father who worked in the park department, it, it would be beyond his imagination that people could lend out more money than they actually had in their pocket.

>> Next question. But how, how did this in, in, in understanding that when you got on something like the Trilateral Commission, you're on the board at Rockefeller, which is the most advanced research, you get brought to the, to the Trilateral, which is the elite of the elite.

>> How, since you're only at that time...

>> 30 something, eight years from teaching at Dalton, right? You're 10 years, 10 years teaching at Dalton.

>> Yes.

>> Walk us through, I mean, put us in the room. 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Don't have bad credit. Bad credit sounds pejorative. You don't want to be a person.

Sounds judgmental. Yeah, sounds judgmental. So, what we're going to do is we're going to call your credit situation subprime. Oh, nobody knows what that means. Subprime. That means prime is good credit. Subprime is not good credit. Less than good credit. So, we'll call it something that people really won't follow. And we'll tell you what, we're going to have people lend you money though you are a subprime borrower and I will figure out some government agencies to guarantee your loan though I don't think you're a good risk.

So the banks say no, no, no, no. Initially, the bank said, "Sorry, this is too risky, Mr. President, for us. We're in the business of managing risk. It's not our money. It's the hardworking people's money sitting in our bank. We can't lend to people whose credit is not prime. You're asking us to lend to people who are subprime."

And he says, "Here's the key. If you don't, Mr. Bannon, I am going to make sure the Justice Department charges you with discriminatory lending because you refuse to lend to my subprimers."

In business terms, you should never lend to. But what we'll do is we're going to I'm going to form an agency called Fanny May and Ginny May. Just another agency name. They'll guarantee your loan. So don't worry. Don't worry. You don't have to pay it back anymore. Even though you and maybe you don't even have to work as hard anymore. It's that's probably a harsh statement, but these players, these two big firms, Fanny May will guarantee the fact that that bank will receive its money.

Now the bank says, "Wow, best deal in history. I refuse to lend to Mr. Bannon, but now he has the big brother uncle, his Uncle Sam." He went to his Uncle Sam, and Uncle Sam says, "I'm guaranteeing it." The bank says, "I want everybody. Give me as many people as you can give me because Uncle Sam is the best credit in the the world. Not only it's the United States government. We'll take it all. We'll take as much subprime as we can handle because it's the best investment for the moment."

It's a strange investment because it has politics that has inserted its way into the numbers. Politics doesn't belong in the in the markets. But now we're going to have I want the votes. We'll make guarantees that you who can't get a house normally will be able to get a house from the bank. The bank says this is the best deal in history. We will package a hundred, three hundred, a thousand of you subprimers and we'll sell it off to somebody else. And the whole system becomes mired in subprime mortgages. That's becomes the the issue.

What do you mean mired?

This is too much supply. It's a supply and demand problem. You get too much supply.

No, it it's a very good question. What does too much supply mean? Well, then you get to people go back to your first question to me. Government leaders. Government leaders know if they're good if and they can do mathematics, they can balance their checkbooks. So certain people in Congress said, "Well, how do you value these subprime mortgages?"

The banks say, "We've we've been valuing them the same way we've always valued them for the past 20 years." The accounting firms. There's something in in this country called GAAP accounting, which is a a standard type of accounting. And we account for them the same way we've always accounted for them. If we paid $1,000 for your mortgage last night, when we put it on our books today, we're going to say its value is $1,000. Makes sense. I paid for it last. What's its value? It's $1,000. That's what I paid for it last night.

No, the Congress people said that's not really a good answer. You know, that does that doesn't give us confidence that you know what you're doing because what happens if you have to sell it tomorrow morning? If I you there's a something's happened and you have to sell it. Remember there's kinds of stress tests. Would you be able to value it at what you paid for it the day before?

And Wall Street says that's not the way you can think about this. This is crazy. We always value things at the cost from the day before. And they changed the accounting method. In essence, to say not what it was worth yesterday, but if I have to sell, what would it be worth? That's impossible. So what happens is every bank now has to value something they bought yesterday at lower than they paid. Never before in 20 years did they have to do this. So something they bought at $1,000 on their books was $1,000 is now $990. That starts to you asked the question about what did I start to think about? Something's $1,000 and $990. This person now has to value it at $980.

When did you first start to get nervous understanding Bill Clinton?

In all this? Did you change glasses?

Yes.

I changed shirt.

I saw that black.

Um.

Are you okay with the?

Yeah, great. I think we're going to have all kind of changes.

I'm experimenting. Okay.

Um, when did you get a feeling? Did you ever anticipate before it happened something like 2008 could happen?

No. How could that be? Because anticipated to death is that it's very much like a would I expect anticipate I'll have a heart attack tomorrow? Unlikely.

Was 2008 a heart attack or stroke? Debilitating.

Um, it's a better um I don't to it was both. But why was it both? Because in fact, as I said, the blood was getting dried up in the system and the head, which is sort of the central bank, wasn't working. So to some extent, it was a combination. It was a crisis.

Did you see that building up over time?

It's it's always been lurking in the background. I mean, if if you have an older parent, would you say it's possible? Did you anticipate him having a heart attack today? No. You hope things are going to go better and maybe they'll fix it up. um the system was getting too complex and it wasn't based on derivatives because what people keep forgetting and as I was just explaining Wall Street and in many professions, including Wall Street, Wall Street makes it sound complicated. They don't want the little guy to understand what they do because they make so much money and they don't do very much. So they they couch it in words like derivative and stock options and commodity futures and different types of contracts. It's all fairly everyone is capable of understanding it. It is not complicated. But Wall Street, because they make so much money from doing fairly simple things, needs to make it more complicated than it really is.

The we had a a very big recession in the early '90s based upon real estate and and and Japan basically imploding.

Let's again, you had a recession in the '90s. I don't know what it's based upon. It's it's always interesting to look back and say, separate from there's certain triggers like there in the '70s there was a.

What do you think it was based upon the '90s downturn? It's clearly there was a huge downturn. No, I I just I know there was a downturn. That's what I know for sure.

That's a fact. What?

Everything else is is sort of speculation about why why did he have that.

Understand that, but there's some speculation that has 0% probability of being true and there's others that have 90%. In in the r in the range when you look at the range of alternatives of what could have caused it of in 90 and what I'm trying to do is get you all the way up to 2008. Look, you're the smartest guy in the room, right? You know that.

Do you think there's anybody in the world today?

Oops. That's this is going to be a bad question. No, no, but do you s do you think anybody in the world today, the Alan Greenspans, the Bernanke, any C, is there any central banker you know, any partner of any Wall Street firm, any guy running a trading desk, and I would take it that would be or anybody at a Larry Fink at BlackRock, uh Steve Schwarzman at at Blackstone, the top hundred financial guys, and let's throw in a couple of Nobel economists and let's throw in the best professors at the at Wharton and at Harvard, at Stanford. Do you think that there's anybody that understands money or understands the world's financial system as good as you?

There must be.

But it doesn't come to the top of the head.

No.

Okay. Fine. Now,

Now that now that Okay, now that I've gotten that, no, now that I've gotten that, let's go back to 1990. In that arc from '90 from the fall of the Berlin Wall to 2008.

Good. We had we started with the the implosion in Tokyo of the Japanese economy, Japanese financial markets. We had the huge runup in in internet stocks, right? We had the implosion of that in 2000. uh the um you know the the bankruptcy of bar of uh of Drexel Burnham in '90.

Implosion of Japan, huge runup in equity markets for the internet, implosion, the internet, 2000, 10 years later, roughly.

And then this runup through the Iraq war and all that, the runup to 2008. Every 10 years, it seems like we're in some sort of 10 years before the 1990s was was the '70s. Am I?

You sound like an astrologer.

Okay.

And not a financial.

I'm just I'm usually a mathematician. It just seems to me a pattern of every 10 years.

That's that's misleading. That's exactly right. Because people like to see patterns. People like to see patterns where there are none.

So a pattern of a financial crisis every 10 years is just in my mind.

Yes.

Long-Term Capital. Long-Term Capital that had to be bailed out back in the late '90s when everybody panicked. And that wasn't a big that bailout today would look small and was it $5 billion or was $30 billion?

People businesses fail all the time.

But they Long-Term Capital and the Federal Reserve stepped in.

But I'm saying they f things people go bad. Things go bad all the time.

Yes. The the the local you're correct. The audience that's watching this, the little guys, they go bankrupt all the time and nobody gives a [ __ ]. You know why? They're the little guy. But when Long-Term Capital Management goes bankrupt or Bear Stearns goes bankrupt or Lehman Brothers goes bankrupt, people care because it it's an unfair characterization.

Why do you say that?

Because again, it's the complexity of the situation. If you think about the think you have a complex system, you have your body. Now, in fact, the little guy is my finger. This this is.

And Bear Stearns is your heart.

That's correct. The banking system is my heart. The system. I can't risk my my because remember it's not only.

You haven't been able to name you haven't no hang.

I was trying to hang. I wanted to see if the hang on worked.

You haven't been able you're not good enough yet. You're like junior junior wizard trying to do it. You you haven't you haven't since we can't name another guy that's as as as good as you, there may be a couple out there. You're not you're not bragging, you're you're humble.

It had to be sometime. Please tell me there was some time before you went to jail and and and basically got cut off from daily information in the summer of 2008. Um, that you started to get very nervous that this complex system that something was deeply wrong.

Okay, first let's go back. When I say no one understands the system better than I do, it doesn't mean I.

You sound like a doctor you're afraid is going to get sued for giving a a thing. You're not you're not taking on any liability. There's no contingent liability here for.

Your No, no, no. But the word understand is the problem. I don't understand the system. So that's I don't understand the financial system.

Please stop. You cannot sit here and tell me what we just went through. I'll go through again the hedge fund managers, the money managers, the central bankers, the commercial bankers, the heads of the investment banks, the heads of all the trading desks, the top uh economists, and I'll throw in the business school lectures of Stanford. Of all the top 200, 250, you can't name off the top of your head. The guys are at least at your level. You have to understand it somewhat.

No, sorry. We all don't understand it. No one understands it. It's a miracle. It's this this that's part of the problem. It's impossible to understand. That word understand simply means if this happens here, that will happen there. It's predictable. Understanding means it's predictable. It's not predictable. That's the problem. It's very in complex systems. That was the fascination. Is there a way to tease out some level of predictability?

So,

In fact, you ask, you would ask the question. It's a great question, which was, was it a stroke or a heart attack? Now, most people don't know that before they were going to have a stroke, they had a stroke. Did they just have a stroke? Do did they understand why? In hindsight, you go back and you can make lots of explanations. It might sound good. And if you're talking to the the working man, you're using language that he'll never understand. It's complex. So he just like going to his doctor. He says he has a gastrointestinal problem. He has diverticulitis as opposed to saying you had a stomach ache. You ate bad food. People don't like to say it in normal everyman terms. The system had a stroke, but we don't know why.

But you just Okay. Hardworking people and and there's a great social benefit. Would you not agree with having people having ownership in the system?

When you say ownership in the system, it doesn't mean.

Let's start over.

Okay. Flip over your phone, too, because I don't want anyone on your phone.

So, maybe flip it down or something.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Who knows what the [ __ ] comes up?

That's correct.

We don't want to send your.

KSA. I can't even get I can't not believe I've got the magic moment when you're in [ __ ] prison or jail wherever the [ __ ] it is in [laughter] solitary.

Now there's a funny part of that we missed which is said go ahead tell it.

The funny part of this is what you asked me.

Is there anything funnier than that?

For black humor, it's.

I don't I don't make any black comments, sorry. Uh, you asked me what I was wearing.

That's right. You're too wrapped up in the Me Too movement.

Yes. So, I was wearing a brown jumper and a brown pair of pants given to me by the jail with the word trustee on the back.

Because you you had qualified to be a trustee.

Well, the funny part was it was spelled trust-y. So, I wasn't really sure. Uh, I'd been a trustee in many different operations, but it was the first time it was actually printed on my back and spelled incorrectly.

Probably had a higher level of of being a trustee at at that than you had at all the all the boards that you were trustees, right?

Yes. Because as the trustee meant you get two um devices to clean your toilet as opposed to one.

Yeah. But it also meant that you you had some sort of personal fiduciary own responsibility for oneself, right?

In the jail, you mean?

Well, that's what being a trustee is. That's why they give you two.

Yes. You get two cleaners. I was a trustee in the jail because I was able to teach some of the kids from to help them get their GED. So that's how they gave me a trustee job.

There's no time I got to go back to this because it's it's I'm like a dog with a bone in this thing.

Yes.

You can't There's something deeply [ __ ] up with you.

At least something.

Well, we know there are things deeply [ __ ] up with this. You will get through in this film. But you cannot possibly have to sit there knowing that you came from nowhere, knowing that you went to the very top of what is considered outside of science and maybe physics the thing people most admire because it's like alchemy understanding high finance to sit there in what will be the defining financial crisis of our time like like Black Friday or Black Monday, whatever it was in the Great Depression and be there at that exact moment triggered in part by a firm that you used to be a partner in and knew intimately well and it created much [clears throat] of your initial net worth because of.

And know that you couldn't someone who lives on a phone.

Right? Yes.

Because you do live on a phone, right?

Correct.

You had to make collect just two collect calls. You cannot tell me sometime during that day, you did not have that conversation with yourself of how the [ __ ] did I do this to myself to put myself in West Palm Beach in a 6 by 9 cell with a metal [ __ ] bed with a brown shirt that said trustee spelled wrong.

So, did I find it amazing that I was there? That's a.

Not amazing. I don't want to say it was not funny. Oh, I thought it wasn't funny.

Right.

Not amazing. It was incredible.

Incredible in what way?

Incredible. Like how do I do this to myself?

No, it's as incredible as me sitting here in this house. They are both just two sides of the coin. That's how I think about it. That my life today is incredible.

Do you consider yourself a stoic?

No, I consider myself a hermit. Stoic's not very happy. You being a hermit then being in that 6 by 9 cell being in the cell qua the cell was not the problem, right?

Correct.

What was the problem? The eating the Almond Joy bars?

Because you couldn't eat the food.

No, right.

And but remember my my life is.

Did that ever strike you that I got I can't eat the food because somebody might have done something to it. I got to eat. I got to live off an Almond Joy bar. One a day or two a day or whatever. How many ever sneak in a day?

No sneaking in.

You're one Almond Joy bar. Did that not It did not hit you at some time. How the [ __ ] did I do this?

No.

Let's go back to the spring of of 2008. Were you so wrapped up in your personal issues at the time you were not spending enough time on the financial markets or were you deeply involved in the financial markets like you normally were in?

I would normally I was involved.

And you and you So we're saying that the smartest guy in the room didn't see it coming.

No, of course not.

The bankruptcy of Bear Stearns, you just thought was a Bear Stearns problem.

You didn't see it as systemic.

I I know you keep hopping on it, but it's it's not.

Because you're a mathematician understands systems. It seems that anybody understands that they had a systemic problem, you at least be the first on the early search radar. If if you're not going to see it, then then you're then I'm really afraid because that means that that I always assume there's at least a set of guys out there that have some sort of sense that something's not right. Imagine the guy who has a stroke or had the heart attack when you ask him, "Did did you feel funny the day before?" He's going to tell you, "Yeah, I didn't feel right. Something was off. I didn't feel right. I had a my my stomach was right. I felt a little dizzy. I felt a little weak." But if you asked him the day before, do you think you're going to have a heart attack tomorrow? He'd say, no, I just feel a little weak. I'm a little dizzy. My stomach hurts. So the these systems and that's the issue of complexity. What complexity says is that in fact this everything seems to go along and people have seen it. One of the great examples of complex systems is sand dunes. In fact, the sand keeps building up. People have seen some and all of a sudden one more sand drop and the thing start all the sand starts running down the hills. That's the way I see the financial market.

But you funded uh Santa Fe in the early '90s or late '80s?

I believe it was early '90s. I can get back to.

But but early '90s Santa Fe was funded for the study of complexity theory.

It was study was math. So let's let's back up. So why did I buy a ranch in New Mexico 1993? So that's gives you some sense. So I would have funded it in 1990. Uh Los Alamos, which was the high energy lab up in New Mexico, was losing all its scientists.

Los Alamos, it was where Oppenheimer and where the where the a lot of the the nuclear weapons program, the bomb.

That's where Manhattan Project.

Manhattan Project was as Los Alamos. And you bought your property out in New Mexico to be near that.

Yes, because the scientists were going to be they cut the funding for high energy physics, but the people who worked in Los Alamos would still be in the Santa Fe area.

They cut that because the end of the this was the Cold War dividend, right?

I don't remember exactly why. It was because again, people thought there was that physics and high energy physics really wasn't that important.

Because that was about nuclear weapons.

No, it was because they were trying they decided which maybe not right. This was the same time that Murray Gell-Mann came up with the term quark. Qu U A R K. He he picked it out of an old poem, the word quark. But it was something it was mysterious. So they were starting to understand in the '90s that the in the our world of the physical world there was things that were just unexplainable. They called it strange things. You gave it a name. You gave it some characteristics. You called it had charm was one of the term. It had a charm. It had a flavor. It had a color. But nobody really No one, Mr. Bannon, understood what it was, just like the financial system.

And you wanted to investigate that.

I I wanted to see if we could build tools so others smarter than me could help investigate it.

And that was the beginning of your concept of the Santa Fe Institute.

Yes. And Santa Fe Institute was founded to do study in this type of.

Can you can these areas of strange things be described by some form of mathematics? So that's what I'm trying to get at. The the the foundational thought, the organizing principle.

Of Santa Fe in the high physics lab at um at Los Alamos, which had created the been the headquarters of Manhattan and the Trinity project, right? The bomb.

Yes.

So you're talking about the the elite the high priest.

Of physics.

Of physics.

Yes, sir.

Which high priest of physics, some subset of that is also mathematics.

Yes. They're both similar. Project out. One of the tools you want to do is to make sure that in this complex system, the finance system, I'm doing a lot of this for philanthropy and a lot for the good of mankind, but also to be able to understand this complex system, the most complex outside of maybe our body of of the financial world.

Yes.

Did they create tools or were you a were you smarter in than the mid as 15 years later than you had been then because of work that was done at Santa Fe?

No, I thought it was great. But in fact, most of the money, most of my philanthropy in the area of can you describe things that appear to be unexplainable by mathematics and can can you fund people who have new ideas and unfortunately when someone thinks they've been able to there was a man Stuart Kauffman when they think that okay I figured out how to be able to predict the unpredictable what appears to other people to be unpredictable but my system in those days it was called genetic algorithms can predict the what things will happen then they all want to make money so they use their systems to try to figure out they know they have figured out the way to make money because they figured out the unexplainable they try they go bankrupt and we start again so in with a cold view what I've come to realize is that the the attempt to mathematize formulize or what in your prior work to understand What really is in today's world still unexplainable is impossible. They're miracles.

The uh your first head of Santa Fe was Christopher.

Langden. I think.

Langden from from Australia.

Murray Gell-Mann was.

Murray Gell-Mann was the fun. He was he was the the rock.

Yes. He was the rock. He was a Nobel Prize winner.

Yes.

Yes. And and a wonderful guy. He came out and helped us with the Biosphere 2 project. He came with [snorts] Chris Landon. Yeah. Chris Landon was the operating the day-to-day.

Chris was doing artificial life. Murray tried to lead his own artificial life.

Yes.

When Chris came to Biosphere 2 for the for the first um big conference we had in 1994, he was one of the most impressive guys there among all the world's elite. Q Gardens, the Lawrence Livermore Lab, the the labs at Sandia, um you know, all the all the major universities, Lamont-Doherty, uh all the big earth observatories, Woods Hole. What set Langden apart I thought and the reason I invited Santa Fe to be part of it was Langden actually made a presentation that everything and he was making this to scientists, a lot of marine biologists, a lot of people that are just beginning Wally Broecker and people who were just beginning the study of climate change at that time called global warming that he made this compelling presentation that everything's really mathematics.

It's all just back to math.

And you have to all these experiments you do, you're not one of the reasons they're considered by the high priests in physics as being [snorts] real experiments is that they don't have a mathematical basis to it and everything has a mathematical basis to it. Langdon seemed like a radical visionary. What happened to that concept?

You go back 350 years. So you have Isaac Newton, you have Leibniz. From move forward, you have people like Heisenberg and Gell and what every one of those mathematicians and philosophers came to understand is that there's something with there's numbers can describe certain things. Approximate certain things but in fact trying to put measurements and numbers on other things that are really unexplainable is folly. It's so 300 years ago they said that unexplainable realm was God and people who attempted in fact to explain the unexplainable who said yes I understand the unexplainable were charlatans, they were the occults, they were the astrologers, they were the conmen.

Alchemists.

Yes. Well, no, alchemist was in fact they believed that there was a way to transmute one metal into another. In fact, they always wanted to see if they can create gold. There's no reason if you think about it, they recognize that one metal is different than another metal because it has some additional pieces to it. Has additional neutrons or protons or electrons. So because they thought it was a machine, they believed it was a machine. If I can take five protons and add five, that gives me 10. I should be able to get gold. They move everything around inside these systems. The molecules transmute one molecule into another. And if this molecule I've transmuted it into is gold, I'm a rich man. It's back to money. But this something strange happens. Isaac Newton says, "This is really weird. If if I want to push a ball on the table, I have to touch it. I maybe I have to blow on it, but I actually have to push one side of the ball or the book to move that side. I'm pushing here." And obviously, this thing is what appears to us humans to be solid. So it moves as one thing. But the only way to get something to move was to touch it or put a force against it. Okay, seems to make sense. Everybody has that experience. You know, I want to lift a glass, I lift it. If I want to push a ball, I push it. If I want to pull a ball, I pull it. But he recognized when the ball fell off the table, fell off the table, it went in a different direction. How's that possible? Nobody pushed the ball down. And he says, "This is crazy. Why did the ball go down? I didn't push it. I just let it go." So someone's pushing the ball because I know I am confident that the only thing that gets something to move is with a force that pushes. So there's a force that's pushing the ball down. In fact, he never he called it gravity. He measured how fast it was pulled, but never was able to explain why it happened. How is it? What is gravity? It's this. Everybody says, "Well, why did the ball fall to the ground?" Because gravity took it. But what's gravity? That's, as Feynman would say, that's the name of the thing we have no idea what it is. This goes to Santa Fe. They were trying to put explain the unexplainable. Can we measure? Can we figure out a way to predict the stock markets using these types of chaos complexity?

Before we get there, let's walk back. Let's let's go let's go back to Newton.

Sure.

Pre-Newton and then Newton. What did Newton solve that for millennia up to Newton had not been solved? Then I want to go forward all the way to Santa Fe. What they were trying to solve. Let's start with just two or three the basic guys, but let's go with Newton. What pre-Newton it was what? And then why is Newton such a.

A genius.

In such a in in the I think mathematically they told me one time I've seen there's been 115 billion people roughly that have lived on the earth. Uh and of that 115 billion new.

Are you sure that's a number that sounds a lot very high. We only have seven now.

I I think in the history of the earth I think I'll I'll pull I'll pull up the stat for you but I think it's 115 billion people they figure.

That probably is inflation. And that's why.

Have have lived have lived through the have lived on earth. But he's one of the handful of the most important.

What did he solve for? Why is he so important for how we live today? And then we want to go through Leibniz and the other two or three other major ones that get us to Santa Fe.

Well, that's a long it's a long journey.

It's this is the heart of the this is the heart of what we're trying to do.

Let me take a bit of a detour just a second. What if you if you went to high school and the last year in your high school you took calculus? So Isaac Newton sort of invents calculus. But that sounds, you know, mathematician.

To torture to torture seniors in high school before they graduate.

Yes. But obviously no. Yes. The answer is yes. Certain people can't could never do calculus. Uh.

Why why is it why is calculus so why is that the dividing line between you know to me people who can handle that and can go on to do certain things and people just hit the wall even if they know math? It seems to me that there's that that that calculus is the is the thing that changes it. It it it bridges.

That's because it's about the the about the theory of change and the theory of how things change. It it's a great question. But in fact, what calculus does is it's it's somewhat philosophical. That's why mathematics is, you know, they used to Newton wasn't a mathematician. He was called a geometer. That's what they used to call themselves. They understood geometry and and numbers. But there was there's an old conundrum uh where it says if and during Pythagoras' days, Zeno's paradox. Called where they said, "Well, if I take if the wall is 2 feet away from me and I take one step that's halfway to the wall, that'll be one foot away. And if I take another step that's half again, that'll be half a foot away. Then a quarter of a foot. I could walk forever, but never touch the wall." Doesn't sound realistic. Doesn't make any sense in our real lives of the physical. But what Newton understood is many problems were like that. Many things approached the wall or in his in calculus approached the limit but never really reached it. So he said it's okay, you don't have to reach it. We can do lots of the mathematics as if it was so close it was almost there and we could do lots of mathematics almost being at the limit. And this is really important, Steve, for today because most of the science up until today was things that are starting to approach the limit. This you were taught in high school that if you had one divided by zero, what if you remember your high school algebra, you were told, what's the answer to that? Is there an answer to one divided by zero? No. If you were in high school, I'd say stay away from it's the boogeyman. Uh, you could write it down as it's undefined. It's not able to be determined that there's a bunch of things. But in fact, one divided by zero is a strange things happen. It's a world of the strange. And what I'll explain to you after is that when you get one divided by zero, you get into a world we don't know what happens. The answer is it's not explainable. We can give it we can call it things like undetermined is what we can give have a convention to say it it's x y or z but in real life we don't know what happens when you are actually at the limit. So that's an Newton thought the same concept is that the limits were Philip God. You got close to God but you can never be God. He had this sort of religious interpretation.

Okay, I want to go back to Newton. Why is Newton such a big dividing line in mankind's history? What is it about Newton? What is about what he trying to solve? What did they not know beforehand? And what because we live to a degree in a Newtonian universe, although I realize later a sub sub particle atomic physics, but at least for a while it was Newtonian. So what's the dividing line? Why is he so important? Why is he an inflection point in mankind's movement from the swamp to the stars?

It's a great question. Stars were by Kepler. What what Newton starts to allow us to do is to make prediction, accurate predictions. Remember that we've got talked about that with money about the things in our physical world. How cars, he didn't have cars then. How horse carriages moved. How things, how bowling balls moved. How pool cues and pool excuse [clears throat] me pool table balls. People tried to solve that before Newton.

Heraclitus or or you know, Plotinus, Pythagoras had had these greats that we hear about. Had they try to solve the same problem? Not the same problem. They try to again, what Pythagoras did, he starts to figure out these relationships in triangles, for example. Everyone knows A squared plus B squared is equal to C squared, that Pythagorean theorem, which is basically says these these shapes in a triangle. Each side of the triangle has a fixed relationship with the other two sides. That's strange. He knew again, but it was all numbers. This was a a system of things in the physical world. And Pythagoras says we can start putting numbers on things that help you predict how they will behave. You can add two triangles and make a square. Some different shapes. They were looking at geometric forms. Newton says, "Well, I want to know how planets move. I want to know how things around me move. Can we find formulas? Can I find formulas that explain what I see in the physical world? How physical things interact and how they describe one another. Again, that the fact that two things, two solid masses, for some very strange unknown reason, unknown today, attract one another. No matter what they are. People have seen the experiment you hang of something, two little metal balls from a string. They move towards each other. In fact, there's a they move towards each other was a very I'm very specific. So when you drop the ball to the floor of this room, Newton says in fact the room came up a bit to meet the ball. The room moved. It's imperceptible. You can't really perceive that motion, but they attracted each other with certain ratios. So he started to be able to measure things in the physical world and that was great advances. It also now you wanted to move I move very quickly unfortunately most people especially in the 20th century, 19th century said, well, like Newton, let's measure everything. Let's measure people's behavior. Let's measure their psychology. Let's measure their health. You go to the we could have my blood test. Let's measure everything. Measure Wall Street, their voting habits. Measure, measure, measure. Can we put a number on how much I care for my life? Could I put a number on how I feel? And we tried unfortunately we ma tried to mathematize the the finer things in life and then recognized that there was things that unfortunately just fall outside everyone. Schrodinger wrote a very famous book about what is life. He was trying to figure out a way. Can he describe the difference formulaically between things that are alive and things that are dead? The answer is no. The things that are alive in my world are miracles, not magic. Magic has a bad connotation.

You don't believe in the spirit or the soul. That's what animates people is your spirit or your soul. That's what you've. Have you ever seen someone die? When they die, their spirit leaves.

Their soul leaves. No question.

So.

There's no question to you about that.

No question.

There's no question to you that there is some animating life force within us that leaves when you're dead.

Yes. In fact, I refer to the soul. This obviously a certain the questions in the past even during.

People would normally think you were soulless. So have you just.

No, but have you talk about you actually believe in it and have done some thinking about it is pretty shocking in its own right, isn't it?

Well, again, mathematized.

You know, Newton was at Cambridge and he was the head of the math department, right? He's a professor, essentially.

But Leibniz, who was Leibniz? A German professor.

Yes. But what Leibniz said is the soul is so strange that because God took chemicals, which is simply the material like tables, and he somehow made this material able to have a thought. How strange is that? Not only does it it have a soul, but this some way it was put together that this material substance can is able to think. So when you say to me, it's obvious to everyone that there's such a thing as a soul. Now, if you're part of the charlatanville, you'll try to explain it to people. The soul I describe is the dark matter of the brain. Why is it dark matter? Because in high energy physics nowadays, you hear terms of dark matter, dark energy. Again, terminology, complicated term. Why is it dark matter? Because we can't see it. That's all. What? What do you mean you can't see it? Well, somehow we see something moving towards this area of darkness. Something I can see this thing. This appears to me to be empty. It's just black. But I see it being drawn this way. So I say, well, I know if this were matter, that would follow that equation. If this was solid, it it would explain the way this particle moves. But I can't see anything here, so I'll just call it dark matter. And we'll say, I don't know what it is, but it behaves as if there was something there. The soul is obvious to everyone that there's something different between things that are alive and things that are not alive. But we have no idea what it is. It's currently unexplainable. I believe we need an entirely different system of analysis to try to figure out.

But no, with Newton, you know, with all his alchemic study, alche chemical studies and and and and things he worked on, spiritual side, Leibniz that just talked about the soul, Schrodinger talked about what was life. If a modern scientist or someone that you funded at MIT or Harvard or one of these things talked in those types of terms, they would be considered to be a wing nut today, wouldn't they? They would not be they would not be on the path uh for tenure, right?

Unless they were in the philosophy department.

This is exactly my point. We're talking about three of the greatest mathematicians in mankind's history that have really changed mankind. Talking like this, what happened? How do we get to a situation where they could not be in the high physics? You know, they could not be in the mathematics department or working in high energy physics.

Good. It's an easy answer.

Newton was a combination of mathematician or geometry then and philosopher. And as time went on that those disciplines seem to move apart. We had philosophy who some of the philosophers can't do math and some of the mathematicians. And again, mathematicians often break into two categories. People that solve problems. Those are more like geometries in the old age, just problem solvers. And then there's thinkers, theoreticians. They're more like the old movement towards philosophy. But neither one of those two groups have been able to figure out why something is alive as opposed to something that's not alive. No one's been able to describe what the soul is, but we all know it exists. And my I I think um what we need is a new science is a bad word. I I think science only describes the things we already know about the physical world. In fact, there's an argument that the physical world that we see has been created out of our systems to be of mathematics. Mathematics. Everyone knows mathematics describes the physical world much greater than it should unless you my view the physical world really comes out of conscious beings that have mathematics. So they create it. This table appears to you and I to be solid. To a bat, it or if because we have light that's bouncing off the table into my our eyes. It appears solid. If instead of eyes that responded to wavelengths of visual light, our eyes responded to radio waves, the radio frequencies. It's not different. It's the same type of frequency is light with different um speeds. The table's invisible. We know that we our phone works in this room. So the waves are coming through the windows. The waves are coming through the walls. So the walls are invisible to that type of radiation, that type of energy. The walls are I can see them because my eyes a physical system determines that the walls are there.

You with with Murray Gell-Mann, you founded or with the original donor and had the idea of Santa Fe Institute and 10 or 15 years later that effort to study the complexity of systems mathematically.

Yes.

A total failure.

A total failure.

Total failure.

It it's the failure of science because in fact if if to some extent science doesn't describe romance. I don't know why I'm attracted to somebody. I don't know people are attracted to each other and some everyone has the same feeling. They've seen someone walk in the room and they say, "Oh, that person gives me the a creepy feeling." Science has tried to describe science doesn't describe what creepy feelings means. They just know it's a creepy feeling. I think women, as I said the last time, have an intuitive sense. What is intuitive? They have intuition. They have feelings. And they're able to deal in the realm of things that men, especially men like myself, find unexplainable. They have great women have intuition. Men see things a bit differently. They men want to measure everything. Women are not really that interested in measuring.

In in what you're saying in macro terms, you actually think science, mathematics, maybe ultimately technology is moving to that.

more intuitive. I think science and math are old-fashioned. And unfortunately, people are still taught that they have to learn algebra in school and certain things in school as opposed to learning to give, have an emotion.

Is this what Larry Summers was trying to get at? Maybe he didn't say it perfectly enough, but what he was trying to get to in that system, the systems we study today, the way mathematics is either taught or understood, that women just haven't gotten up to the highest realms of engineering or physics or mathematics because of that. And you're you're actually implying that there's either a new branch of science or we've hit an inflection point like in Newton that's going to go in a Newton took mankind in a different direction because he was able to measure. Then you had subatomic, you know, non-Newtonian physics later. Are you saying that you think there's another developing field that's coming up that may take us, I don't know how many decades to get our hands around, but that that's what's evolving out of this?

>> Yes. Yeah. In fact, I think that mathematics, it's not the end of science. And every year someone says it's the end of, we can't discover it. Everything, there's lots to discover with relationship to the physical world, but we know a lot already with in respect to the unexplainable world. We almost know nothing. Women again, sense it. And instead of Larry Summers, I'll just, I won't digress too much, but Howard Gardner early on said there's not one form of intelligence. It's not mathematical intelligence. There's emotional intelligence, that this kinesthetic intelligence. You know, there there's this argument that I reject that black people are less intelligent than white people. It's not true. We know, for example, that if you, if I was in a in the forest and I had to run from the lion or figure out a way not to be eaten, and my competition is a local African, I'm going to, I'm the one who's getting eaten because they have the intelligence to deal with their local environment. So, it's just different. It's not better, it's not worse, but there's many differences amongst different types of people. And so people have different intelligences and they excel in some intelligences usually and less so in others.

>> When did it come to because the world of high finance is a world of pure reason, or is it is it a lot of emotion and gut checks and and and you know, on trading desks and central banks when these decisions get made? Is it is it that high church, like the high church of science, of of high energy physics, or is it as much emotion that comes in as as much as the mathematics and the reason?

>> It's a great question. I think if you talk to really experienced and successful traders and you ask them how they know what's going on, they can't give you an answer. They don't know. They feel it. They can feel the way the market's moving. They can feel the way the stock's moving. And that these are not very well-defined terms. It's not, it's difficult to put in mathematics terms how did I feel it? You could look back and make guesses what I was seeing. But great traders feel it and then act on their feelings. That's the difference. Many people feel it but are afraid because they want a mathematical justification before they take that next step.

When you first got on the trading desk at Bear Sterns in the late '70s or mid-'70s, were you shocked by how little actual understanding of mathematics that the traders comprehended?

>> Yeah. Again, we had the Texas Instrument calculator. Most most stock brokers in the especially before 1975, if they were good stock brokers, could add. That's about it. They could multiply. If you could multiply, you were already in the top 15% of stock brokers. Stock broker simply meant I, there's a great, there's a story when I went to, to the first person I, I had no money and I said, "How much money do you make a year?" And he said, "$400,000." Said, "Impossible. I'm I'm making $10,000."

>> That's probably more in your family he had made in his entire existence.

>> Yes. And he makes that in a year. I said, "What do you do?" And he said, "It's too complicated for you to understand," which is what the main thrust of Wall Street people. They they want to tell you it's too complicated because if if you understood that that person was simply, he had a brother-in-law, in fact, in this case, who ran the pension fund at General Motors. His brother-in-law would call him and say, "Buy a thousand IBM." He'd hang up the phone, he'd write it out on a ticket and walk it to a window. That was his entire skill set. Hello. Write what my brother-in-law says, walk it to a ticket window.

Give me an example when you were on the trading desk in the early days of Bear Sterns of a time that you felt either complete uncertainty or you saw total panic where people, something was happening that people couldn't foretell and that they were like in an airplane cockpit where it's going wrong. Walk us through that.

>> 1978, I think it was. Um, across the news wires, uh, there had been a collapse of the currency in Thailand on the other side of the world. Had no relationship to me. I wasn't sure where Thailand was. But the fact that a currency, a country's money had all of a sudden dropped tremendously in value affected the rest of the world's markets and people panicked because they never, they never seen that before. A very small part of a very complex system had a shock throughout the whole system. So prices on Park Avenue apartments, the bond markets, the stock markets, everything started to gyrate. You know, there's an old mathematics expression that if a butterfly wings in Mexico make the wrong turn, it spins out and eventually when it by the time it gets to Canada, it turns into a a tornado. So these are part of complex systems. So yeah, Wall Street in in certain parts.

>> Santa Fe Institute was supposed to actually come up with a [clears throat] formula for that for the butterfly wings. Why in 15 years did you reach the end of of at least that experiment?

>> Every attempt to so my that's why it's so exciting now because we, I think certain people are starting to realize that there's so many things that are unexplainable that that we have to think about them differently. Music is a great example. Just a, it's a common man's example. You know, when you hear a certain song, it makes you feel a certain way. How does it do that? We don't know. We can't mathematize it. And even that music, Steve, nowadays, we compress music. When you have a violin, it's compressed onto your iPhone. So, what does compression mean? Taking lots of information and I'm cutting it into lots of pieces and squishing it together. And when I squish it or compress it, I have to take out lots of pieces. But I say that they're not very important pieces. It's those pieces that we take out when we compress data to me are the most interesting parts of life.

You just said a while ago, part of this new search for science may have may go back to when people were actually talking about a soul, and you said there's no doubt in your mind that there is a soul. Describe for me what you mean by that. What do you mean by soul? What do you mean soul, different than the physical analog body that we're we're seeing on film right now?

>> It's, it's, it's difficult to describe in words. I mean, I I'm not a, I'm not a poet. Poems get a little closer to what that really means. But we can, even the concept of what is life becomes complicated when you deal with plants and seeds. Is a seed alive? I don't know. Certain people would say no, it's dead. When when you're a banana, my one of my favorite examples is the banana that's sitting on the countertop in your kitchen today. Is it alive or dead?

>> What do you think about human life? When is what what is human? Tell me about human life.

>> But your banana is alive. That banana is breathing. It's on your, you say it's impossible, Jeffrey. No.

>> Is the banana conscious?

>> Um, all these words, these are words. So you try, everyone's trying to fit a very complicated concept into a very small box called conscious or alive. It's these don't fit in that way. So if you put your banana in a bag and put another fruit in with it, the fruit ripens faster because the banana breathes with it. That's how we don't understand most of those things. So you asked the question.

>> You talk about the life. What about human life?

>> What about it?

>> Tell me what what do you think? What do you think human life is?

>> It's a miracle. We, it's a miracle. And when I say miracle, I can't, I can't explain it and I make no attempt to explain it at the moment. This, we don't know how to think about it. And anyone is, again, one of the Feynman quotes when he was talking about quantum physics. He said, "Anyone, Jeffrey, who says they understand quantum physics and quantum mechanics and quantum behavior, you know they're lying."

Let's talk about it. That's post-Newtonian. Talk, talk about what's the difference. Who founded quantum mechanics? Why is quantum mechanics taking Newtonian physics and taking it to the next level?

>> It, it forms a much broader category.

>> Let's go back to this desk. You, you use the thing of Newton using this desk. What is sub? Why can't Newton's theory explain everything? Why did subatomic quantum mechanics or quantum physics have to come into explain, explain this?

>> Well, quantum. So let's, let's go right back to square one. Why is it called quantum physics? So quant is a word that simply means packet, small amount. So it's quantized. So we recognized when we recognized that this this table appears, appears another very complicated word, solid to us. It has, it's really made up of molecules or atoms. And atoms, we, we've given lots of names to what some of the behaviors. When if you were in school, when you and I were in school in the '50s, the model was a little center thing in the middle and an electron went around and around it. It was seen as a ball that went around and around it. And as we started to look at, say, well, let's see what this ball looks like. I want to be able to examine that little thing called an electron. We found out there was nothing there. There wasn't the thing. It, it was simply a cloud of energy that we can call an electron. So we already started to see mysterious things as we go into very super small quantities. Quantum physics. So quantum physics started to go into the very small, and at very small distances, we, we see things that we can't explain. We just cannot explain.

How am I doing on time?

>> Uh, four minutes.

>> Fine. Um, and to summarize, no, sorry. Um, let's go back to human life. When do you think human life starts?

>> It's not these. So you see, this is the question you're asking me to measure something again. It's does the.

>> They can't be measured. You're just, you just hate making commitments to me. Say, I'm, I'm, I'm peeling this onion back a layer at a time.

>> All your [ __ ] and happy target can't be measured, can be measured like that. Is that to say measure makes it's a commitment? You don't even like a commitment when you answer a question.

>> I don't say in golf, commit to the shot.

>> I don't know what it means to be measured. It. You do know what it means to be measured. You're one of the leading currency traders, uh, hedge fund guys or stock market financial wizards. You're in the high priesthood of high finance. You certainly know how to measure. That's why you're a billionaire. Any other answer besides that is total and complete [ __ ] and you know it.

>> I know very few things.

>> You, you know things can be measured. You measure every day. You weigh and measure every day. You weigh and measure people. You weigh and measure leaders. You weigh and measure economies. You weigh and measure politics. You weigh and measure. You weigh your whole, your whole life, in fact, is measuring.

>> It's that's so what you've now done is a great thing is you've used the word measure, a mathematical term, in a common vernacular and abused it. So I don't even recognize what it means. It's so abusive to my field.

>> Why? And let's go to that. Is in, in mathematics, measure means, and measure means what specifically?

>> That's there's no spec. It's, it's an approximation or give, giving something a number. If I, Einstein.

>> We're not asking you to go to the ninth decimal point on.

>> Oh, that you didn't say that before.

>> No, you're not going to the n.

>> I don't, if I say measure, how, how tall are you?

>> You'd say, okay. Six foot. Six feet.

>> But is it 6'1 inch?

>> Give or take six, between 5'11 and six feet.

>> But what's that? But I want, so the question is, I want an accurate.

>> Zeno's. I got Zeno's paradox.

>> I don't even know what it means to measure you. Is that, am I measuring the top of your hair, the top of your skull? Which, and the finer, the more.

>> You're getting, you're getting, that's, you're being rabbitical. This is like.

>> I took, I shaved my beard off. I used to be.

>> No, my point is, isn't that what, isn't that going through the Torah where you, where you're, you're parsing every, every, uh, every definition.

>> No.

>> You do, however we broadly define measure, your life literally is about measurement, is it not? It's about get, putting numbers on things so that I can try my best.

>> I, that you can call it whatever you like. If that, if that makes you feel better.

>> You know, it back to your scientific inquiry.

>> No, it, even a number, it, people don't, a number is is a complicated.

>> When did you come, when did you come to this, in, when did you come to this aha moment? Was when it was in, when it was in your solitary confinement, when the biggest financial crisis in world history was going on in your 7 by 9 jail cell with your metal bed and your and your two brushes because you were a trustee with the brown uniform on, trustee spelled wrong. Is that the moment of clarity that you had about science and and Newtonian physics and everything that we can measure is really not going to be the way we go forward. It's going to be some more much more esoteric, uh, emotional intelligence thing. Is, was that your, was that your moment of clarity?

>> I wish it was because it would make such a great story for this interview, but it, it's not. It's the fact that I lead such a privileged life to come across. So.

>> When did you, if it didn't happen then? When did it, or did it happen before?

>> I was going to hopefully get to the, I, I'm in a privileged position to have some of the world's smartest people come to my house and tell me what they think about different subjects. And I finally realized that the thing that they had most in common was there was this area, this area, no matter how smart they were, that when I asked them the questions, they said they'd have to resort to a 500 or a thousand-year-old response to that question, which was, I don't know.

>> You know who, um, who else found that out? Socrates.

>> That's, that's what Socrates kept doing, right? Socrates kept asking all the experts.

>> He would go through, you know, question after question after question and realize at the end they didn't really know, under, they really didn't basically understand what they were talking about. And one of the things that people won't enjoy, it turns out that potentially one of the bad things to teach children is how to write. It's imp, writing, reading, and arithmetic was supposed to be everyone's supposed to be taught. But writing forces you into a very narrow channel of thinking. You have to write certain, in a certain way, in a certain linear pattern. So your thinking becomes somewhat narrow. The most interest, the reason I brought up writing is one of the recent discoveries of mine with respect to Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle is they never wrote anything. They spoke, and people around who could write wrote. Socrates could think. So that, that, that was.

>> Jesus of Nazareth was the same way, right? Never wrote anything.

>> I thought he was a carpenter.

>> He, he was a carpenter.

>> Didn't he need like a little carpenter to get.

>> But at least his written record. One last thing. Um.

>> Thank you for having me to to your house. Um.

>> Vegetable juice.

>> Let's go back. Let's go with vegetable juice.

>> When, when did that.

>> The beginning of that was there any one aha moment in all these great thinkers? Did it happen before 2008? Was it after that came up over? I know many years, but when did you actually realize, hey, something new got to, something new's got to be developed?

>> Yeah, that's great. Is that I've wa because, um, again, I'm privileged enough to have people around me who've given lots of philanthropic gifts to, uh, institutions of higher learning. And when I said, the impact have you judged, how do you judge the impact of your giving? And we sat down and said, no new, no really new ideas have come out. And I realized that of course, it hasn't come out because we've been looking at using science and mathematics, and it's the wrong tool. It's obvious.

Institutions that are set up and try to put forward knowledge and and understanding and truth, should they take your money? Derek Bach at Harvard said taking money for good causes is a good thing. So if Hitler, if Hitler took all the gold out of the out of the teeth of the Jews and said, "I want to give this to Heidelberg University to fund the Leibniz chairs, uh, so I can study high energy physics." Derek Bach would say that was fine. Again, it's these questions are questions where people, good people on both sides, like your Charlottesville, could differ. I, I don't, I don't know the answer. So tell, so tell us, tell us the two, give us the two answers. What the one answer why it shouldn't be, and then the one answer Derek Box says, "I'll take essentially take cash from anybody because I got so many projects, so many good guys, and this is the way I'll do it. So I'm indifferent to where the cash comes from. Money's money, and if I got good guys, I'm the fiduciary says these are good people and this is good research. Okay, I'll take the cash from however, from any source, including you." What's the other argument? And let me give you that, that I know in my case, I've.

>> Is your money dirty money?

>> If you live.

>> I just asked a question. Is your money dirty money?

>> No, it's not. So in fact.

>> Why is it not dirty money?

>> Because I, I earned it, my heart.

>> But you, you earned it. You earned it. We went back to this before. You earned it. You earned it advising the worst people in the world, right? That do enormous bad things. Uh, and just to make more money.

>> So if I, instead of asking me the question, should you take the money? Because I think it's a legitimate question.

>> Do you think it's a legitimate question?

>> Yes. No question. Because what I, because I think about, I think you have to, ethics is always a complicated subject. But I can tell you that with the money I gave to help try to eradicate polio in Pakistan and India, instead of asking me whether that money was should be given to these children for vaccines, I think you might want to ask their mothers who, who received the vaccine, who know their child now won't get polio, and ask them if Epstein should have helped these people. If we walked, if we walked in, you're, you're a mathematician, you're a ma, you're a mathematician. We walked into that clinic.

>> Where they're giving that money out to these people that are in the most dire rates of poverty and and and sickness and told them that the money was coming from a what are you, class three sexual predator?

>> Tier one.

>> Your was tier, tier one's the highest and worst.

>> No, I'm the lowest.

>> You're the lowest. Okay. Tier one, you're the lowest.

>> Um, but a criminal.

>> Yes.

>> That the money came from them. What, what percentage of people do you estimate? I understand you don't like private bills. Do you estimate would say, "I don't care, I want the money for my children?"

>> I would say everyone said, "I want the money for my children."

>> Did they know where the money came from?

>> If I think if you told him, I told him the devil, the devil.

>> Himself.

>> The devil himself said, "I'm going to exchange some dollars for you, your child's life."

>> Do you think you're the devil himself?

>> No, but I, I do have a good mirror.

>> It's a serious question. Do, do you think you're the devil himself?

>> I know. Why would you say that?

>> Because you have all the attributes. You're incredibly smart. You remember the devil is somebody knows what the, the devil's brilliant. You read Milton's, you read Milton's Paradise Lost. The devil.

>> No, the devil scares me.

>> This Satan is, Satan is the, he, he is the, he is at the number one or two archangel. And the reason he goes to hell and leads the rebellion is because he can't be the top guy.

>> And his thing is, "I'd rather, I'd rather reign in hell than serve in heaven."

>> I saw that in a movie once called American Dharma. I don't remember who said it. Okay, we have to go. Okay, good. Okay, that was good.