Transcription
So, Diverse CEO has now gone on to be one of the biggest podcasts in the world.
Second, the second biggest. What is it that you did differently that helped that become the brand that it is today?
Grace Andrews, once the marketing director for Steven Bartlett, is now making waves building her brand in the creator economy.
For us, it was never a podcast. For us, it was always going to be the biggest show in the world cuz we were going to obsess over it more than any other team in the world could ever. If you want to become the top 1%, the best in the world at what you do, there is not one person at the very top who is living a work life balance. I have zero fear, zero fear about failure because for me it's either a learning or a success. That is fundamentally one of the best lessons I could have ever learned.
To the decision to leave is quite a big decision. How did you come to that decision?
What's a nice way to put it with Instagram for example? Right now, what we're seeing is like a follower account matters less than ever before. The likes of for you pages on Tik Tok or your explore page on Instagram where it's not dictated by follower accounts. You can go viral tomorrow.
Why are you choosing to invest in YouTube? And again, what's some of the tips you'd give us?
What we didn't quite realize was, we found the secret.
[Music] Welcome to the madness.
There's a terrifyingly big photo of my face that I can see in my periphery, and I'll let you know it's here for the whole chat.
Yeah, we'll just keep looking that way. We'll keep looking that way. Grace, welcome to Business Mastery Life.
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
I want to start with the thing that obviously most people will know you for, which is Diary of a CEO, working with Steven Bartlett. You were, I believe, was it the third hire of of Diary of a CEO and you was there for nearly 5 years. Is that right?
Done some good research.
Oh, [laughter] yeah.
Yeah. I was um so I joined when so, it's funny because people uh knew Steven Bartlett back in 2020. Either if you lived in Manchester or if you worked in social media. I was the latter. I've born and bread in London, but I worked in social media. So, I'd come across this guy called Steven on LinkedIn a few times. Um, I was progressing in sort of my freelance career. I actually studied journalism, but we don't need to go back into all of that. Um, I found journalism very depressing, so I moved into social media. Um, and I saw this post go up on LinkedIn and it was Steven Bartlett on LinkedIn and he was like, looking for a social media manager for my own brand. And I sat there thinking I wasn't in the market for a job. I was loving freelancing. I had these amazing clients. I was just like finally felt like I was thriving in my career. And then I saw this post and I was like, if I'm going to learn from anyone in this space, it's probably going to be this guy. So, I didn't know too much about him, but I just dropped the application in the same way everyone else did. And um, yeah, two weeks later, I'd let all my clients go, was in the office, was being told about this new podcast he wanted to start called the Diary of a CEO. Um, and yeah, it was just me, the producer, Jack, who's still there, executive director, and Steve.
Do you know why he picked you?
Um, I I don't know the reason. He didn't firstly he didn't directly hire me. He's very much was like his manager was sort of hiring at the time. And um, I was extremely extremely persistent. Once I had my eyes set on that, I couldn't think about anything else. I'm someone who's like an all or nothing kind of person. And I had already sort of visualized having that. I that was my role. That was my job. That was my next job title. So I had already mentally, almost got the job. I I think there's a lot about visualization now and manifestation and that sort of world which there's probably speaks a lot, you know, a lot of truth to my situation, but I didn't really know about that back then. I was just writing in my journal like saying, well, when I, you know, I am now the social media manager for Steven Bartlett, you know, I hadn't even had my first interview, but I was like, so mentally there. And so the, I guess the visualization turned into action where I found everyone who was possibly close to Steven Bartlett. I messaged them on LinkedIn. I messaged them again on LinkedIn. I found them on Instagram. I was so annoyingly persistent that they kind of one couldn't ignore me and um, because, you know, it's rude and and I I I also, I guess in some ways made their job easier because I'd been building what is now known as a personal brand. Back then was very much just my port, my portfolio to attract freelance clients. So I had a lot of evidence built up in my favor. So I didn't need to do too much persuasion because they kind of could look at my Instagram and go, "Oh, she knows social media. She talks about it. She educates about it." Because I was using that as my lead magnet to generate freelance clients. So I think there's two parts to that why I was hired is one, I was aggressively persistent. And it's something I talk about when I I speak with a lot of university students and grads and like that sort of world and I say, like, that one email is going to get lost in the thousands. Like send 10 emails, but go above and beyond. Do something different. Turn up, send something, like just do something to stand out. And so I always understood that principle. And then I guess the other part of it was I I had the digital evidence sitting there. So I didn't really have to do too much selling. It already had done the selling for me, you know, through, I guess, what is my personal brand now.
I think there's so much we could all learn from that. And I mean, that that persistence because I think a lot of people feel like they fear being annoying or whatever. So I think there's a lot that can inspire us there.
So Diverse has now gone on to be one of the biggest podcasts in the world.
The second, the second biggest. And you were literally there from pretty much the beginning. What can you share with the audience today about why? Because so many people have podcasts, like what is it that you did differently that helped that become the brand that it is today?
For us, it was never a podcast. For us, it was always going to be the biggest show in the world. And I think to my point, as I was kind of speaking to earlier, I in the same way I knew that that role was going to be mine. We never had a shadow of doubt in our mind that this show, which we always treated as a show, which I can get on to, was was always going to be the biggest because we were going to obsess over it more than any other team in the world could ever. We were going to sweat the smallest of details to the point where other people would look at us and think we were completely insane. And I think that's something you can take in any industry, in anywhere you work. If if you are going to put in more reps than anyone else, the compounding effect of that is probably that you're going to come out near the top as long as you don't quit, you know, because what actually happens isn't that people are more talented or people just have that like spark or whatever. It's actually that they just put in the reps more and more and more than anybody else, but no one sees that, right? So like everyone looks at the Diary now and they see it's this big show. They want to replicate the trailers. They want to have the success and the the scale and the achievements that they've they've now had. But they don't see those sort of first three years or first two years where barely anyone was listening. Like, really truly barely anyone was listening.
Um, Ross was [laughter] he's from Manchester, that oh, that over that was our concentrated audience. Manchester and worked in the world was our sweet spot. Um, and it's funny because I think it's that classic iceberg model, isn't it? Where everyone sees that tip and they want to replicate the tip and they're obsessed with replicating the tip. I mean, it's amazing since I've left how many people are like, can you come and do what you did at the Diary of a CEO and copy and paste it onto ours. I was like, unfortunately, it's never going to work like that because we had those two years of about also a full-time team at that point of about seven of us working just on this one show. So, you know, that scale again, it's very hard to replicate when I go and work with podcasts who only have the host and maybe a freelance producer. It's a very different setup and I we we just worked harder than anybody else. We said like, we will become the number one show in the world and to do that, we worked, you know, we had breakfast, lunch, and dinner together every day for two years and most of everything else in my life was sacrificed in order to get to the show to number one. So it was never, I guess, a surprise to us when we would hit these milestones and everyone would like go crazy externally and we were like, "Yeah, we we kind of know that's where we're heading." It's inevitable for us that that success was coming. But it's founded on a load of sort of first principles, which I guess we can maybe get into. I you've probably heard people talk about the 1% mindset or this like compounding success or sweating the small stuff. Like we none of us had also for context, none of us had ever worked in podcasting before. None of us had really ever worked in media. So it's not like we were taking sort of shared knowledge. We were just applying first principles of how to gain people's attention through this new medium of this new podcast which was exploding. And so things like filming the thing for us was so obvious. Of course you would film the podcast because how on earth are you ever going to get in front of people who are consuming video content every day if you don't get into their feeds? So for us it it was things like that where, you know, people now in 2025 are still like, oh, maybe we should film our podcast. It's like, for us that was so it was so inevitable because we just based ourselves on based our thinking on first principles which was views equals filming and it, you know, when you get down to the basics, it sounds so simple, but so many people I guess overlook the the first principles in order to do what they think is right because everyone said podcast is an audio first platform. You've got to just make it audio, audio, audio. And we were like, no one's like discovering audio. Everyone's discovering video every day. So, we're going to transfer that into the formats that people are consuming. So, I guess it was that sort of thinking that allowed us to sort of stay ahead.
What was the cost? You spoke there about sacrifice. And I know a lot of business owners struggle internally to know, you know, I think you use the word they're obsessed.
Yeah.
Like they have these goals and dreams. They want to be the number one. They want to be the best, but they're worried then about the sacrifice. And we hear a lot about work-life balance. What was the reality for you and what would you say if people are unsure how hard to work or how obsessed? What would you your advice be based on your experience?
I've had the incredible honor privilege of working alongside people like Steven himself, but also all the CEOs we brought onto the podcast and I've worked alongside sort of CEOs and Spotify and all these incredible successful people, Richard Branson of blah blah blah. And um, there's not one of them who would ever ever ever tell you work-life balance is a real thing. It's it's simply not. If you want to be one of those people, and I'll make it really clear, you can absolutely have work-life balance. If you want to continue living a balanced life, if you want to become the top 1%, the best in the world at what you do, there is not one person, I promise you, no matter what any guru or course person is going to sell you at the very top who is living a work-life balanced kind of scenario. It just doesn't exist. And I've seen it. I've seen it with people who have all different, you know, all different stages of their life, uh, much older, much younger, but they're all the absolute top 1% of what they do. And all of them will battle away this idea of work-life balance because to get there, to become the 1%, you must must must sacrifice. And I always say that like we live our life in these different chapters and these different phases and each chapter comes with like different levels of sacrifice. You know, I was in a very privileged position where I had no responsibilities really. Like I was the only responsibility I had in my life was myself. And so I could be extremely selfish in my behaviors and go all in and be completely obsessed and all consumed by my work. And I saw, you know, people at different stages of their lives who had to sort of retract a little bit and then give back a little bit. And I think it's a constant give and take. Rather than thinking about work-life balance, which I've always found incredibly jarring because it suggests that work is one thing and the entire rest of your life is another thing and that you have to weigh them up against each other. For me, work is one element of my life rather than weighing them up against each other. I also have relationships. I also have family. I also have hobbies and things that bring me joy. And for me, it's a case of looking at all of those different buckets within my life and looking at how I'm spreading and filling those buckets at any one time. And if I feel really out of kilter at any one point, I'm going, okay, which bucket needs topping up right now? You know, it's a case of looking at it more holistically and really going, okay, I've really for the last few years and which is the truth, you know, been very selfish in my relationships. And so since leaving the Diary, I've absolutely prioritized that area. I prioritize that space because I was neglecting it for a long time. And I do think it comes to a point where you have, you know, whether life tells you in one way or another, it will trip you up somehow and go, you need to reset your buckets. Like I do believe that's the case.
But I love what you said because I I speak a lot about it being seasons. And I think it's knowing having the self-awareness to know what season am I in right now. I also spoke to Dr. Arya, that I know was a guest who's amazing, really early guest, who was on Diary of a CEO and I always remember him saying, we don't have to call it sacrifice. It's just a choice. Like understanding every choice you make has an upside and a downside. And as long as you're clear and comfortable with that, you don't have to call it a sacrifice because it comes with that connotation. Or I'm saying yes to this, but I'm saying no to my friends. Well, no, you're just choosing this. You're saying yes to this. And then there will also be opportunities to say yes to friends maybe in another season, things like that. And I think that can be useful when you weigh it up in your mind.
So all those years and that that you know, real intense workload working closely with Stephen, the team, the guests that you brought on and so on. I know this must be like a hard question to answer, but is there one like key lesson or something that you took from that that's now a real guiding force as you move forward? Like one of the main things that stands out.
Can I be annoying and say two?
We'd love you to like say 10. We just want to get as much as we can, Grace.
Okay. There's there's three principles that I would say are the things that I've really when I look at what I've taken from my time there that I'm now using every single day in everything I'm doing. So for context, I've left with like not really a clear, I guess, route or path of exactly where I want to go. I've given myself this grace period to sort of figure it out. Um, and but there are principles that I've sort of extracted and taken. The first one being failure is feedback. So for us, failure at Diary of a CEO was probably one of the most critical principles that allowed us to stay as far ahead of the competition as we did. We were so willing and in fact eager to fail as often as we possibly could. And I know a lot of companies and organizations say that they're like, we like failure, and then behind the scenes they're like, if they fail, they're getting fired. You know, for us it was like failure was actually genuinely within our infrastructure encouraged to the point where we had, they have, we had a head of failure and her entire job was to orchestrate as many experiments as possible to encourage the learning as quickly as we possibly could because our theory was, we're going to have to fail to find the right thing. If we can fail as quickly as possible, we're going to get to the answer before anyone else does. So failure for us was celebrated. We were incentivized to fail and I think that mindset is so rare. I think people, and I've seen it now since I've left, I've worked in sort of different organizations, whether workshopping consultancy or whatever, and they're like, yeah, yeah, we encourage failure, and then it's like, how are you incentivizing it? What's the support system so people feel actually encouraged to fail or safe to fail in an environment where they actually feel like if they fail, the world's not going to, you know, burn in front of them and they're not going to lose their jobs. So for us, we were just looking every single day for the opportunity to experiment and try something and it did not matter if that experiment resulted in success or failure because for us, it was just one step closer to the right answer. So we we celebrated the input rather than the output, which I think is a mindset I play with every single day. I have zero fear, zero fear about failure because for me it's either a learning or a success. And I think that is fundamentally one of the best lessons I could have ever learned. The second one is this idea of 1%s, which I spoke to earlier. The 1% mindset is, I'm sure you've all come across it in different schools, different things, to different people. Different people write about it in different ways. Essentially, the idea that every single day you're looking at edging 1% closer to your goal. So rather than trying to do 100% overnight, it's what's the one thing I can do to that's going to edge me closer to my goal. Because ultimately, if you look back in a year, you've moved x number of percentage along the uh along the way and it's not as scary or it's not as daunting. It's like, what's the what's the one little thing that I can change or alter or control today that's going to edge me closer to my end goal. And I guess that leads into the third principle, which is like sweat the small stuff. Most people will tell you not to. Most people say don't bother. Don't sweat the small stuff. Don't worry about it. Just go, you know, go big. Just like forget about it. It's fine. It will all figure itself out. We were obsessed. Like completely. You would absolutely think we were insane if I were to go into all the little things we obsessed over. We sweat the small stuff more than anybody else.
Like the temperature in the room?
The temperature in the room, the music that the guest, we would research the music that the guest would be most comfortable and relaxed to that they used when they wanted to calm down or relax. And we play that when they entered the room so that they were in the mindset to share more information, to feel comfortable more quickly, so we didn't have to do too much warm-up. We the CO2 levels in the room. We had a whole research department, you know.
Because I tried to find it for you and there's nothing anywhere telling me Grace's favorite. [laughter]
Oh, I've kept it already.
I keep some some things close to my attention.
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I think, you know, we had a whole research department and they were phenomenal. They do research calls in the same way you would if you were going on a Piers Morgan interview. You know, they would interview the mom, the dad, the sister, the girlfriend, the brother. They would do all these research calls before they'd find out all of the information that the person would sit in the chair and be like, "How did you find that out about me?" Like, almost a bit terrified. Um, and, you know, Steve would present them with photos and it it just created this depth of conversation that nobody could compete with. But we did. So, you know, we created we had this whole vehicle made with Mercedes that was the driver vehicle that we would pick up our guests in very specifically. So the experience started, we were controlling all of the sort of different environmental factors from the minute they were picked up, wherever they were picked up from. And there were messages in there. There were gifts in there that, you know, we we controlled as much as we possibly could from the minute they were in our in our um care to the minute they left. And I mean, we controlled the CO2 levels in the room. Like I you would think we were crazy. Like you would think we were crazy, but
But that's how you get your guests to cry, right? That's what you This is we found the secret now. How they break the toughest people. But I mean, people would look at at what you were doing there, Grace, and they'd be like, "That's the dream." Like, what an amazing life, job, and and position you're in. I imagine then coming to the decision to leave is quite a big decision. How did you come to that decision?
It's very hard spending every single day around incredible creative entrepreneurs who are building the most incredible exciting tech service, consumer product, everything, and not get the itch to want to do it yourself. I I remember I was in a taxi a few years ago and getting got chatting with him and they'd always, oh, you work for the Diary. You'd have a good conversation and um, he was like, well, surely you're going to go and do your own thing. And I was like, "What do you mean? Of course, I'm not going to like where would I possibly go? This is the best place in the entire world. How could I go and ever leave and do it? I have I don't want to be an entrepreneur. I've seen how hard it is. I'm not interested in that. I want to be behind the scenes. I want to be part of the team." And and then something and then that switch happens and you go, "Oh, actually, I do think I want to be the guy who the girl who builds something and I I do want to create something for myself." And I thought, I've been blessed with this crazy opportunity where I've been able to absorb either via osmosis or via learning or whatever it was, insight, knowledge, wisdom, experience that, you know, most people pay a lot of money to be exposed to. And I thought it'd be a real shame if I didn't sort of act on that. At the same time, I'd been encouraged within work directly by Steve to build my personal brand. Um, and essentially what happened is my I I mean my last week at work, I did I we work in the office five days a week. I was in every single day, but I also delivered four talks in person that week. So I was doing two jobs. I was doing I was living two lives and I I saw this opportunity where the speaking, the content, the creative, the personal brand had given me this this opportunity to go and have this grace period and this grace, pardon the pun, to figure it out. And um, I was also quite in I had we had really honest conversations at work, which I'm very grateful for. And they said, like, I think it's I think you've got to go for it. Like you've got to go and seize this opportunity. And they're like, "We'll always be here. I'm very much still involved. You can't, once you're part of that cult, you can't you can't get away." Um, but it was, I think it's a really interesting time for like employee brands, personal brands. Um, and I think I almost am a case study for what we're starting to see happen within businesses now where employee brands are encouraged to be built, but the the downside to that is the likelihood is that, you know, if they're any good at it, their brand will get so big that they will probably leave. But the reality is is your A players, your best people are probably going to leave anyway. So you might as well get them on board and allow [clears throat] them to become an ambassador for your brand during that time that you do have them. So it's it's a really interesting time.
So let's talk about being a creator entrepreneur and this kind of space that you're now operating in. People are not sure what that actually is. Do you want to just tell people what that is and kind of what the main things that you're doing now?
Yeah. So um I guess this term creator entrepreneur is quite new because what we've seen for the last 10 years within the creator economy is this emergence of the influencer. And the influencer was someone who shared content in exchange for uh monetization, right? So they would share links, brand deals, affiliate, all of that sort of thing, very transactional. They'd be used essentially to reach the audience that they'd created through their content and that was how they monetized. So this this influencer blew up and everybody sort of left their jobs to become an influencer. And it's now there was a stat that came out when the IAB this week, last week, that one in three people in the UK are now consider themselves like a creator or an influencer, which is just this huge crazy phenomenon. And what we've seen in that sort of industry in that space is people become very tired of being influenced. So the demand for influencers in this, it's just not the same as what it used to be. So whether you've built an audience of 100,000, a million, 10 million, the saturation within that space and the fatigue audience are feeling towards influencers mean that they're the demand is shifting. And what we're seeing in this shift is the emergence of the creator entrepreneur. So what's the difference between an influencer and a creator entrepreneur? An influencer, as I said, is very transactional. So it's a case of, hi, we would like you to sell X number of products. Can you post two pieces of content? Yes, deal done. It's very superficial. It's very transactional and it serves a means to an end. So the content is designed to sell to sell or to convert something. The idea of a creator entrepreneur is that yes, they might still sorry, they might still work with brand partners, but it's in a completely different capacity. So, we're seeing the likes of Alex L. Having, which is who's one of the biggest creators in one of the biggest influencers or creators in the US, one of the biggest people on Tik Tok, um, being given equity within Poppy, which then went on to sell for 2 billion to Pepsi last year. We're seeing Anna Archer, who's a running influencer from London, being given equity in Runner, the app, which then went on to be acquired by Strava this year. And it's it's much more about embedding the creators into long-term brand partnerships where they have equity and real stakes within a business because the business actually understands that that influence can push the needle far greater or move the needle far more than a transactional link in their stories or a sale. They actually have the power to influence at scale the ultimate sale price of the business if you bring them on board, bring them behind the scenes and allow them to uh dictate and communicate how how the brand dictates itself on social media, for example. So we're seeing a massive shift of how influencer marketing is working. And in that same way, these influencers who previously were getting all these brand deals through and it was, you know, the heyday of influencer marketing are also realizing that they built an audience that they can monetize themselves without needing the third party of a brand or a business. So they're going, okay, I built this audience who are very engaged with me and they're very interested in me. What can I build as a product or a business myself that I can sell directly to my audience that doesn't need to be sponsored by a third party? They have control back. So that's the difference between I guess an influencer and a creator entrepreneur. A creator entrepreneur is someone who is building audience first or they have built audience first and they're creating product second to sell to the audience they've created. It's why we're seeing this absolute boom in creator-led businesses and celebrity-led brands because what they've done for the last few years or what they're doing is building an incredibly dedicated high trust, high loyalty, engaged audience and they're now figuring what the product fit is going to be to sell to them. So previously we would have seen businesses be built that it would be product first, audience second. I'm building audience first. Whilst I figure out what the product is I'm going to sell to my audience. So, I'm building audience on Instagram, LinkedIn, and more recently YouTube, which I absolutely am obsessed with. And for me, it's build the audience first and let the product follow.
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So when it comes to building that audience and building that relationship with the audience and using things like Instagram, what are some of the tips you could give us in terms of what's working and what's not?
I think there's a lot of things not working right now on Instagram. Um, and I wouldn't let that um I wouldn't let that I guess like reduce your love for the platform or um like stop like algorithms come and go, right? Like there's always things in the algorithm. There's new features, there's there's new things to try. The Adam Mosseri, head of Instagram, is constantly introducing new features and tweaks and they're being led by user behavior. So, what we're about to see be introduced is the the um the menu bar at the bottom is about to completely be rearranged again, which will of course create this huge backlash and then everyone will get on board very quickly. Um, where it's all going to be prioritizing Reels and DMs because they found that that's where the most uh that's where the uh their audience is spending the most time.
What was the thing they did the other day with the little the little video?
So, that's nothing to do with Instagram. That's like a stupid trend that someone just created which no one could see and it was very frustrating. It's gone. Has it gone now?
It's gone. It's gone. Flash in the pan. These things always are. Um, and just on that note, like I would say if you're a brand owner, you don't always have to jump on every single trend that comes your way like please don't. Please, it's people see straight through it. And really, you should only be leaning into trends if they feel very aligned with the your audience. Gimmicky, doesn't it? If you're just jumping on everything, people you lose trust, right?
And I think so. Yeah. So, with Instagram, for example, right now, what we're seeing is like a follower count matters less than ever before. So the probably the last metric you should be measuring as a as a means of a KPI or success is your follower count because what we're seeing with the likes of for you pages on Tik Tok or your explore page on Instagram where most people are spending their time, it's not dictated by follower count. So it actually doesn't matter if you've got zero followers or a million followers, you can go viral tomorrow. So follower count has become less meaningful than ever before. It's why influencers are also sort of dying on this hill in some to some degree. Not the not the market, not the whole industry for sure, but the the way we've worked with influencers in the past because a follower count did used to dictate the potential ROI of the campaign, whereas now a follower count is almost futile. So, I would say when it comes to Instagram, yes, there are going to be waves of algorithm changes, and we're definitely going through one now where engagement is at like an all-time low. You've got to get super super clear on why you're what you're doing on that platform and who you're trying to speak to and then set your KPIs and measurements of success up via that goal. Because ultimately, if you're trying to convert, I don't know, three new clients a month or whatever it is, three new clients a quarter, you need three people. You don't need 500,000 people viewing your Reels. You don't need 400,000 people following you. You need to reach those right three people. So, I would be obsessing over how to get in front of that audience. And it's also worth saying like Instagram might not be your best platform to do that. Instagram is one of many free social media marketing tools that we can take advantage of. There is, do you know the the number one still most used social media app? Facebook. So, we're very quick to sort of jump on the platforms that everyone says we need to be on. We need to be on Tik Tok. We need to be on Instagram. All this new platforms emerging. We need to be the first people on there. Please be dictated by your audience, not by like your desires for where you want to show up and your goals. So, I'm I'm very aware that with lots of people I'm working with, they're all really struggling with engagement right now. And yes, I could give you a formula for like a viral Reel. It's not going to serve you because the reality is is virality is going to bring a load of eyeballs in and probably none of them are going to be relevant for your end goal, which is a conversion to a paying consumer. So, I think it's really important that we just get really clear on what we're trying to achieve on this platform as a marketing tool. Let's remember, we always drop the marketing part of social media. We're like, "Oh, we're on social media." It's social media marketing. It is a marketing platform. Whether we like it or not, we're being sold to the minute we go on these apps. So, you've got to get really clear on who you're marketing to and why you're marketing to them. and set up your please set up your metrics of measurement based on that because anything like a follower or a like, they're just vanity metrics. They're just serving the ego. They're not serving the business. I can assure you.
Why have you chosen to go down the YouTube route? I know you've recently started a vlog and it's like every single week and they're quite long, right? They're like 40 odd minutes, an hour long. My poor editor.
So, it's a lot, right? So, why are you choosing to invest in YouTube? And again, what's some of the tips you'd give us?
Yeah, I guess so. Look, I have a slight bias because we built the Diary of a CEO up on YouTube. It was our primary platform and we did that for two reasons. One, in the podcasting world, YouTube has discoverability, right? So, within podcasting, until very recently, none of the platforms have been set up for discoverability. So, if you're a new podcast and you set yourself up on the audio apps, there's very little chance that you're going to be seen unless someone in your WhatsApp group sends you the link to it. There's very little discoverability. Whereas on YouTube, the algorithm will put your content in front of new people in the same way as the other social media apps do. So that's why it was always a priority for us. The second reason it was because of the data it provides. There is no other platform. There is no other platform that provides the amount of data YouTube does. You get pages and pages and pages of insights and analytics and demographics and data. And data is power, right? The more information you have, the more personalized the experience can be for the audience. And so we were completely obsessed with gathering as much data as we possibly could. And so for us, that's why YouTube was always the priority in the early days. What we didn't quite realize was the value of a subscriber on YouTube versus the value of a follower on another social media app, like a short-form social media app. And so if you think about it, if someone hits subscribe on your YouTube, they may have watched 10, 20 minutes of your content. If someone hits follow on Instagram, they may have watched 3 seconds. So they've already spent 10 to 20 minutes with you, which you may never get from a follower on a short-form social media app. So the intensity, the loyalty, the engagement that comes from just one subscriber on YouTube, I think, and this is just my sort of analysis from from building it myself recently, I think is worth about a thousand subscribers or followers on another platform. The value and I I've been totally blown away and it's actually made me yes, I completely understand what we built with the Diary of a CEO. We built it up to 12 million before I left. And I mean the way they would convert when we would bring anything like a real life tour around or a product. We couldn't keep anything on the shelves for more than 5 minutes. The the loyalty was just incredible. So I did see that there and, you know, when they turned up to events, it was it was so powerful and it was so moving and it was so the parasocial relationship was very, very strong. But when I've what I've experienced for myself is is the same. And I think that's what's really surprised me because it took a really long time for us to build out that 12 million. But, you know, I've only I've been going for a few weeks and I'm I'm at I don't know what, 7,000 subscribers on YouTube. And the the intensity of a subscriber on YouTube I've already seen to be worth so much more than the audience I built up on Instagram. So, for me now, it's about going all in. And it's actually made me completely reframe how I approach the platform with uh brands I consult for. And for me, it's like, yeah, you may only have a much smaller audience on YouTube, but if they click subscribe, they are in. They're your bottom offunnel clients, bottom ofunnel customers, and I would be looking at creating a series for every brand I work with going forward on YouTube because I think one, the feedback you get, the data is phenomenal. But imagine like I so I put this vlog up. I've made myself accountable for 52 weeks. I'm putting a vlog up every Friday. Um, I have never in my life, and I've been going for five years on my own personal social channels, had people message me going at 8:01 on Friday, "Where's the vlog? Where's the vlog? Where's the vlog?" And I'm like, "Whoa, guys, [laughter] two seconds." Like, it's just uploading. Um, but it's that sort of it's that sort of level of loyalty that you develop over on YouTube. They just spend more time with you, you know? They just feel like they are they're part of it a lot quicker. And I I think it's just a phenomenal platform. I'm going all in. I'm going all in.
You said there's lots of data on YouTube. What are the key metrics we need to
It's I can't give you that blanket answer because I'd have to know what you're going after and who your audience are.
Um, things like uh at at Diary, we were really obsessed with like average view duration. Um, how long people were spending with us. Could we increase that week on week? Could we increase it by one second every single week? That's like the the the how how particular we get over the metrics. Um, average watch time, things like that that we were sort of really looking at. If we were being recommended, what keywords were being recommended. I mean, the the algorithm on YouTube is so amazing that you can go in the back end now and it will suggest you videos based on what your audience is consuming elsewhere and it will almost give you like a competitor analysis as well. So you can go in and it will go, okay, your top followers are also watching this kind of content. So you can go, okay, I should make more content in line with this. It gives you inspiration. They're very good. They do a weekly um inspiration video of or updates on the platform. They just keep you very in.
the loop. I mean, it's a phenomenal platform. I am yet to be sponsored by them. I know it sounds like it. Um, but it's coming. It's coming. But they, I really just would recommend exploring it and trying it out. And it doesn't have to be a vlog. You, it doesn't have to be a vlog. It can be a series you run that's just a bit more long-form than something you run on Instagram. And yes, you might only get 100 views, 50 views compared to maybe getting 10,000 views on Instagram or whatever. But those 50 people or those 100 people, I almost guarantee will be more relevant to you than the 10,000 people you reach on Instagram. So, if we are able to put our egos to a side and not worry too much about those sort of metrics, but really looking and investing in like who that is, I think that's where we're going to uncover like the real, real great opportunities.
What's next for you? And do you have a strategy? Is it just audience growth and see, or is there a long-term vision and strategy?
Speaking speaking to a strategist. Um, I, I a little bit of both. I think I'm very, I think there's a lot of things that have come my way in recent years that if I hadn't been open at the right, just open to opportunity, they wouldn't have landed in my lap. And if I tried to be strategic and plan too much, I wouldn't have uh been so open to the opportunities that presented themselves to me. I do think I'm now in a stage where obviously when you go out by yourself, you've, you've got to make sure there's, there's uh, there's opportunity and invest, you know, all the things coming in at the right time and cash flow and all of that sort of thing. So, I have to get a bit more strategic. So, I'm thinking about um, I'm thinking more a bit about it holistically though. I'm thinking about like, who do I, how do I want to, what do I want to be known for when I leave a room? How do I want to make people feel? Um, what's the three things I want people to think about when they think of me? Um, and then how can I build product around that sort of emotion and feeling and connection that I'm building with my audience. So I would say there's definitely elements of like strategic, holistic thinking, bigger picture thinking. Will I also post something that comes to me like that and I feel very emotion, uh, you know, connected to the topic or I feel very emotionally charged about something? Absolutely. And I think that's um, I think you've got to always have room for that, you know, that sort of reactive um moment or being willing to sort of pivot or change direction when something comes your way. But um, yeah, I'm just sort of sitting in this time where I'm doing a lot of this sort of thing. I'm creating a lot of content. I'm doing a sort of exploring a little bit of workshopy consultancy. Uh, working with different types of people so that probably by this time next year, I'll be like, "Yeah, this is who I am. This is what I want to do." But I'm allowing myself this time to explore because I spent the last sort of five years following my calendar every single day, minute by minute, hour by hour, and being dictated by lots of other people. And so now I'm just sort of sitting in this moment, allowing my gut to do a little bit of the talking as well, thinking and um, yeah, just really enjoying it.
And I find that that's where a lot of the magic comes sometimes where you pause and you actually have that space to explore, to try stuff. And I'm very excited. I feel like you join us at an interesting moment. It'll be, it'll be exciting to see where you are a year from now. Grace, thank you so much. I want to give a few moments to if anyone wants to ask a few quickfire questions, but I just want to firstly say, first time in Leeds.
First time in Leeds. Thank you for joining us, Grace. Welcome. [applause] And one final question from me before we do a quick fire Q&A. Get, get yourselves ready if you've got a question. Um, the final question that I always ask guests on my podcast is, Grace, what is your personal definition of success?
Um, finishing the day and feeling, finishing every day or any day and feeling that sense of fullness and fulfillment, whether it's with work, family, health, whatever it is. It's like feeling that sense of fullness. Um, where you finish the day and you're like, "Yeah, I did everything I could to to feel that sense of fulfillment and fullness today." Um, I think that's what success feels like to me. Give up for Grace, everyone. [applause] Right, hands in the air. Anyone got a quick fire question? We've literally got a couple of minutes if anyone wants to ask. Right, Helen? It's over. Where's my bloody mic? Right, here we go. I've got to be doing everything now. Am I on Darren? Am I? Turn me on, Darren. Right, here we go. Helen, over to you. I'm just going to say um, will you come back in a year and tell us how you get on.
Yeah, if you're having me. You have it back. Just watch her vlog. She'll tell you. Anyone else? Any quick questions?
Ross, come on. This is your moment, man. No, all I was going to say, Grace, is um, you said that and I completely agree with you. Everyone that you saw who was a CEO who had like achieved really, really big stuff had found there was no balance in terms of like they just gone all in on on on that thing and they'd made sacrifice. Is there any other was was like any other universal attributes you you just felt across the board these people had?
Um, what's a nice way to put it? Um, like psychotic obsession.
Like obsession to the point where I don't think they think about anything else at any minute of any hour of any day. Um, I, there's a, someone who writes on Instagram about it and they capture it really nicely. I can't remember that name right now. And um, might come to me. I'll share afterwards, but um, it, it's that sort of granular, like that just live and breathe and sweat and dream about the thing they're building and the thing they're working on. Um, I also think the other thing would probably be that the most successful people were all able to separate their ego from from what they were achieving. I think there was a middle, a middle group of people who had maybe not achieved the great heights of success of your Richard Bransons, your like Whitney Wolfs, your Emma Greeds, your those sort of people. Um, and they weren't able to separate their ego from what they were doing, which changed them down to wherever they were and they couldn't break through that ceiling. Whereas I think when you're able to remove your ego, you become less romantic about outcomes and it becomes much more dictated by numbers and people and and the reality of the situation. And the best entrepreneurs across the board, whether they were, I worked, I had the privilege of working with all of the um brands that Steve invested in through Dragon's Den. So some really early stage entrepreneurs and sort of more middle-stage entrepreneurs and um, as soon as they could stop being romantic about their idea um or romantic about the outcome and thinking that it was the best thing in the entire world, everything would switch and everything would flip because they'd be willing to uh pivot and change and let go of that one and actually go into this direction and listen to what people actually said as soon as they stop being, yeah, I guess romantic. But then you still have to be obsessed. They're different things. I think when you romanticize your product or your business idea, it's and your ego is involved, it's like you've got blinkers on and you know what, you can't hear anything else anyone's saying or any advice. You don't take anything in and you think you're the best at everything and you think no one could do it like you can. And then when you drop that, it actually just becomes about how can we make the best thing possible here. And that might be 50 iterations on from what you've currently got, but you're willing to experiment, test, and like be fed the listen to the results that come in. So I would say like unwavering obsession and then at the same time, losing, removing your ego from whatever you're creating. I think they were like the most common traits.
Amazing. We'll have to leave it there. Can we give a massive round of applause? Grace. Thank you. Grace Andrews, everybody.