Transcription
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Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Let's Be Blunt with Montel, your go-to source for in-depth conversations around cannabis, wellness, and the incredible people advancing the space. I'm your host, Montel Williams, and today we've got an absolutely fascinating guest who's shaping the world of cannabis-based healthcare. Joining us is Dr. Jun Chin, a leader in integrative medicine with over two decades of experience. She's been pioneering medical cannabis protocols, educating patients and professionals worldwide, and helping millions understand the healing power of cannabinoids. Dr. Chin is the Chief Medical Officer of Leafwell, the leading virtual clinic for integrative cannabis care and education in the United States, a professor at two prestigious universities, and the author of "Cannabis and CBD for Health and Wellness." This woman has done it all, from medical acupuncture at Harvard to advising the New York State Office of Cannabis Management. Today, we're going to talk a little bit about her role of cannabis in healthcare, Leafwell's cutting-edge services, and her book, and how medical cannabis is changing lives. Dr. Chin, welcome and thank you so much for being a part of Let's Be Blunt today.
Thank you so much, Montel. I'm honored to be here.
Oh my goodness, I'm honored to have you. I'm looking forward to our conversation because I think, I think I have multiple, I have so many questions for you. I think we'll end up having to do this at least two times. So I'm gonna beg you right now, before we even get started, I want to have you back.
Sounds good.
All right, for sure. Look, it's an honor to have you here today, and you've had such an incredible career, combined traditional medicine with cannabis and cannabinoid science. Can you start by telling our listeners about Leafwell? What motivated you to join them? What sets it apart from other health platforms? And maybe while you're talking, just tell me, what drove you towards cannabis to begin with?
Of course. Well, Leafwell is the largest virtual integrative cannabis clinic in the United States. So we are a leading telehealth platform dedicated to providing patient-centered, science-backed medical cannabis care. And what sets Leafwell apart is our emphasis on our three pillars, which is education, research, and access. So, you know, if you think about it, we're not just facilitating medical cannabis certifications. We're providing 360-degree care to patients and consumers. We're ensuring that patients receive tailored guidance from knowledgeable providers. We have over 100 providers in 30 different specialties, so rheumatologists, oncologists, orthopedic surgeons that understand how to integrate cannabis care with their specialty, and so they truly understand how cannabis can be integrated to overall health and wellness. And you ask, how was I drawn to Leafwell? Because of my own journey, my own journey as a chronic pain survivor, my own work as a physician, you know, building, um, traditional medicine, so conventional medicine with cannabinoid science. And Leafwell's mission aligns with my belief that patients deserve expert guidance, they deserve compassionate care, and leveraging telehealth, we make it easier for people to access, uh, evidence-based cannabis care regardless of where they live.
You know, I got to tell you something. I, I, I'm honored that I have an opportunity to do this podcast. Uh, unfortunately, you know, we, we have a, a really lovely following, and it grows every single week. Um, have we had the amount of money we need to promote? No. So therefore, our growth is a little slower than it should be. I'm hoping that your presence here today will bang us up and and garner so many more viewers. However, one of the things you said, you know, you guys are, are strong, strongly believe in your three pillars. Number one, which I was so impressed and so happy that you said, number one, education, education, education, education. To me, I've been saying this time and time again for the last 20 years. And something that I think that this industry has done a disservice to. As a matter of fact, honestly, personally, because, you know, what I'm doing now, we've been doing these little shorts where I'm giving, you know, cannabis, uh, factoids. So I'm just throwing them up there on the internet, trying to put them everywhere we can so people can understand some facts about cannabis. But this is something that this industry, I think, I don't understand why we can't come together and say, and, and just hear me out when I say this. I'm making this up, but let's say everybody decides, let's give 1% of what we're bringing to the education pool, and then let's start doing some feature films. Let's start doing some, some dramatic, uh, dramatic and also documentary-style feature films and putting them in theaters so people can get the truth. That's been the biggest part of this that I think is has really done the industry a disservice. And the reason why it's so stagnant, flat right now, because, you know, there are so many more people out there who could, who would gravitate towards this plant if they only knew. And I know that state laws and, and every state has a different law about what you can and can't promote. And so often in this industry, we're too busy trying to promote our individual little fiefdoms rather than promoting the overall. I mean, we have the ability in almost every single state to run public service announcements or even run public service programming. I mean, I think it's time that this industry wakes up and and figures out that until we start educating the consumer, we won't get enough consumers coming in the doors. What do you think about that?
Absolutely. I think education is key, and I know you've been talking about it for a long, long time. Um, and that's why Leafwell, you know, we've been direct to consumer, but we recently started talking to employers because we figured, you know, there you can only get so far by talking to consumers and educating. But until we, you know, widen the funnel, so to speak, and talk to their employers, um, we can really get somewhere and democratize cannabis medicine. And, you know, I mean, I think right now, I think from a societal standpoint, I am really 100% convinced that the nation, the world, is ready to listen. They've been ready to listen. It's just some of these beanheads in control of legislative bodies that want to see if they can squash the information because they are so beholden to, you know, the pharmaceutical industry. We know what's going on in Israel. We know that in Israel, you know, it's almost become a geriatric drug. I mean, basically, if you hit the age, I think it's 65, you can walk in, show your ID, and they can fulfill a prescription for you even if you hadn't had the doctor write one for you. So, and why? It's based on truth. The reality is that seniors in Israel who use more cannabis use less pharmaceuticals, and they're no, no greater risk of any health issues. They just found an alternative to some of the standard things that are costing so much. And here in the United States, as we watch, you know, we're about probably to go into a recession. I believe that cannabis will have an impact on, you know, the medical bills for a lot of us baby boomers, me, baby boomers out there who are on multiple medications could probably limit some of those by using more. I use no sleep medication whatsoever. I use cannabis. I use cannabis for my pain. I use cannabis for my, you know, a little, I, I don't have true anxiety, but I do have some anxious moments in my life. So cannabis is what keeps me on the even keel. And, you know, there's not this, you know, dysfunctional part of me that can't think or can't cooperate or can't move. I mean, I use cannabis all day long, and I can have, I can go right from this, this podcast and go do an hour-long speech, and nobody's going to know that I've been using cannabis all morning. But, and I think the consumer needs, like you just said, you've done a lot of outreach to consumers. But I mean, honestly, it's a model that the pharmaceutical company understands very well. I can walk out here in my living room right now, cut on a television, and I'll guarantee you within the next five minutes, I'll see at least four different ads for some medication. I have no idea what that medication does, but I guarantee you in 45 minutes, I'll remember the name. And that's what they're doing. They're shoving the name down my throat. So I walk in my doctor's office and say, have you ever heard of this? And they say, oh yeah, I got some of them right here. Take those home and see how they work for it. That's how they do it. We need to do the same.
100%. And it's interesting, you talked about the different, you know, polypharmacy, different pharmaceuticals. At Leafwell, we have this opiate taper. So basically, we help patients get off opiates, um, that have chronically been on it, and it doesn't serve them anymore, but they still have chronic pain. Um, and we will use cannabis medicine and integrate it into their opiate taper to get them off, um, the withdrawal medications.
So this is back, this is back for those people who are listening and tuning in right now. Dr. Chin's not talking smack. She is talking validated research because I know at least what, 10 years ago, uh, NYU did a study that proved that cannabis could be a good exit drug for opiate addiction. Recently, just now, the study just came out in Europe, in the EU, and this was a double-blind study that proved that cannabis was more effective in pain relief for cancer patients. Not just helping them with their diet and helping them with their, their appetite, it was actually proven that it had, did a better job than all the other pain pills that they were using.
Right. And that's what our data shows. We cut out clonidine, we cut out buprenorphine, gabapentin, you know, we cut out, um, anti-diarrhea medications, you know, because there, with, you know, when you go on withdrawal from the opiates, you have diarrhea, you have runny nose, you have itchy skin, your, your blood pressure, your autonomic system, you're sweating, you know, there's are, that's six or seven different prescription medications to help you with the withdrawals off of opiates. And by, yeah, people don't understand that those opiates are doing nothing but binding you up. I mean, you know, it destroys all your flora and all the, you know, phytonutrients in your digestive tract. So therefore, you don't, and so like in my case, it literally almost stopped that peristaltic reaction. So my, you know, my, my intestines weren't actually pushing the waste out. And people don't get this, but as soon as I shifted it over and started using cannabis, I was like, wow, I'm so relieved. I can go to the bathroom. Well, come on. Yeah, you can go to the bathroom. More people need to know about this.
Absolutely. Well, you know, I mean, in, in your journey, I understand that Leafwell doesn't just stop with individual consultations. Talk a little bit more about this employer program that you were working on, and its benefits, both for companies and employees.
So our employer program is designed to integrate medical cannabis into employee healthcare benefits. So you think about an employer offering a vision, uh, benefit or a dental benefit. Well, they can also offer integrative cannabis care. And it's because surveys show that 50%, so half of your employees are already self-medicating with cannabis. Whether you're pro-cannabis or not, you know, there's increased access. And so forward-thinking employers aren't ignoring this reality. They're getting ahead of it. They're providing structured support while maintaining workplace safety and compliance. So with our program, employees can consult with cannabis-knowledgeable providers, like I mentioned, um, specialty providers that understand cannabis care. So you might have a rheumatologist, you know, treating you for MS, but your rheumatologist doesn't understand at all how to integrate cannabis. You can get on a Leafwell platform, see our rheumatologist, and our rheumatologist can collaborate with your local doctor. So there's 360 care. You'll receive personalized treatment recommendations and, you know, access to medical cannabis. Um, we also partner with dispensaries for reduced cost through their benefits package. So we're really looking at integrating cannabis with your conventional medication, if, if needed, and, and, you know, educating your own doctors.
And right now, while we're on that point, why don't you give out the stats of where people who are tuning in right now, listening, where can they go to get more information about this employer program that you're doing?
Right on our website at leafwell.com.
Okay. And it'll, it'll guide them in the direction that they want. Maybe give them some talking tools that they need to talk to their, their in-house doctor.
Exactly. You can talk to their in-house doctor. They can ask their employers to offer this as a benefit plan. Um, our data shows that employers that adopt this as a benefit plan, lower their own healthcare expenses. So it reduces ER visits by 48%, reduces primary care doctor visits over 50%. So you're thinking at decreasing healthcare utilization, um, and of course, decreasing the pharmaceutical medications, like you had just mentioned.
And, and I know you're, you're well aware of the struggles that our veterans, veteran communities go through. As a veteran myself, I have seen firsthand how medical cannabis can provide relief for things like PTSD and chronic pain. How is Leafwell supporting our veterans?
So we, we actually just published a study on PTSD and helping patients get off benzos, um, through for PTSD, and how much integrating cannabis can be very, very helpful. We also actively support veterans. We offer discounted consultations, we advocate for policy changes, we expand access for medical cannabis within the VA healthcare, um, and then we educate veterans. We educate veterans how do you talk to your doctor about cannabis medicine, how to reduce your reliance on opioids, pain medication, sleep medication, like you had said, anti-anxiety medication to improve quality of life.
Absolutely. I mean, it's incredible what Leafwell is doing because you, right, really are kind of leading, uh, in this whole effort. For anyone listening who's curious about turning on to cannabis for things like, you know, symptoms like stress, anxiety, insomnia, it now, they can start with your book, right? That's one of the things that they could do is to reach out and get a copy of "Cannabis and CBD for Health and Wellness." Do you cover a lot of these topics in your book?
I do. It's a very good, basic, practical guide for anyone curious about cannabis but really unsure where to start. So, so it breaks down the science behind cannabinoid, uh, benefits, how to safely integrate cannabis into your wellness routine, and then, you know, what you had mentioned earlier, um, education, dispelling myths, providing clear, evidence-based information that in a way that's really easy for the layperson to understand. Um, the book also talks about pain, sleep, stress, a step-by-step guidance on how to select products, dosing, and responsible use.
I mean, I'll throw one out there to you. I gotta tell you something. I think the first organization that does a theatrical release or a stream release, you know, full feature film in a documentary or docu-drama style that talks about the facts behind cannabis and literally shows some of the information out there by the fact that we know that, you know, cannabis has, and the cannabis plant, the hemp cannabis plant, has probably well over 3,000 different usages. There's been over 30,000 written peer-reviewed studies published about cannabis in the last 15, 20 years. Almost 3,500 of them every single year, there's more written on cannabis and research on cannabis that's been done, and even on aspirin, which is kind of crazy. You can look up aspirin, probably find, you know, four or 500 different. You had to kind of dig to find them. There's more, more like maybe 150 peer-reviewed published documents on aspirin, but you've got 30,000 peer-reviewed studied, uh, documents published on cannabis.
Right. That's right. That's right. How ironic is that?
That's absolutely crazy. I mean, what, what are some of the key factors that, you know, somebody should consider when choosing the right cannabis products for, say, a specific health condition? I know they can again reach out to Leafwell at leafwell.com, but, you know, what else should they really keep in mind?
Well, some of the, I would say four basic things that a patient can think about is symptom, you know, what type, what type of thing are you trying to treat? Are you looking at chronic pain, anxiety, inflammation? Because that may respond differently to the different cannabinoids, like you mentioned, THC versus CBD, um, is what I'll talk about for simplicity. Um, you think about the desired effects. THC is psychoactive, while CBD, um, is not, non-intoxicating. People, and people need to understand that you're just naming two of the cannabinoids, and we know that there are probably well over 250, 250 of them that exist in the plant. We are starting to find out about CBC, we're starting to find out about CBN, U, CBG. We know about those. And, and every one of those minor cannabinoids when combined with say, CBD and THC, and then some of the terpenes that go along with this, this is a very, very robust plant. It's got constituent parts that, you know, part of the reason why, I guess, the Godfather of the cannabis movement, Dr. Molem, said in the very beginning that this was a, you know, an orchestra effect. It's kind of like, you know, the effect, you know, the entourage effect. You need all those other components, parts together. And it's going to take us, you know, people, I, I hear it all the time, well, you know, when the research is done. Research has been done. Yes, but there needs to be more research done because, you know, we are leaving out some of the other constituent parts that may just be as effective treating some of the medical issues that we face that we even know about.
Exactly. And some patients, you know, prefer a balanced ratio of those minor cannabinoids and THC and CBD without intoxication. That's why you're able to take, you know, cannabinoid medicine and still be able to function. You know, I have a professor who is a patient, and he can't miss a decimal point. He's a physics professor, and he's able to use cannabidiol and was, and able to teach, you know, four or five classes throughout the day. Um, so you have to think about the different cannabinoids that are beneficial, and it doesn't mean that you're high all the time. It, it doesn't mean that your cognition is affected if you're taking the right formulation.
Absolutely. I mean, I, I literally am a consumer. I, I, I vape. I also use some flower from time to time, and I use concentrates from time to time. I do eat, uh, I have some edibles that I, I take on, um, I have my own product that's in the marketplace in Georgia right now, and I'm getting ready to launch another product down there that's a, a, a mucosal absorbing product. One of the first, I think, that'll be in this marketplace. Though a lot of people have come up with, you know, different types of tinctures and things that they think are mucosal absorbed. They normally go through the liver and the kidney. We've got a product that literally is absolutely absorbed mucosally if you just hold it in your mouth for long enough before you swallow. And, you know, the speed and rapidity of, uh, how it comes on, I think has been far superior to any other product that I've ever tried to use. Uh, we're going to launch that in Georgia in the next 30 days. Um, so patients have to understand that there are a lot of misconceptions about the cannabis that people frequently encounter. And, you know, some states, some of the budtenders do a better job than other states, budtenders, and actually educating a client or a person or a patient when they walk in the door.
Well, I think the biggest thing is to start low and go slow. So if it's something new and you've never used it before, and let's say you want to take an edible, you want to take the smallest possible dose. You know, with your rapid release brand, you know, you want to take a microdose. Uh, you might want to start with CBD that is less intoxicating, you know, or non-intoxicating compared to THC. If you decide to take THC, you start with a small dose and you go slow. I would tell the patient to start with the same dose for at least three to five days, see how the body reacts, let your receptors get used to it, and then titrate your dose up until you get relief. Um, with the different form factors, and understand that the reason why you're going slow is because this is, lot of people, people will put something in to go slow, and they go, well, I waited 20 minutes and didn't do anything. But that could have a lot to do with what you ate all day long. Has a lot to do with you individually. You need to take your time, slow it down. If you, at the end of the day, if you tried, let's say a five milligram piece and it didn't do anything, where you had a five milligram piece and you cut it in half, and you didn't feel anything, well, wait till tomorrow to add the next five on.
That's right.
Because, you know, by the time you, because you didn't feel anything, you had that other five, then all of a sudden, bang, upside the head.
That's right. That's right. And it could be scary. It could be scary, especially for, um, a new cannabis consumer. So if you've had that half, 2.5 milligrams, and it didn't do anything, and you decide half an hour later, take the 2.5, you could be panicking, you could be sweating, you could be, this room could be spinning, and it could be a scary, a scary moment for you. So you want to wait until the next day. And I'm one of those people who have overtime, you know, because of my, you know, I guess over time, my body has gotten more and more used to me actually eating cannabinoids. So cannabis. So, you know, I, I have, for listeners out there, I have consumed as much as 100 milligrams in a five-minute period of time. But that's me. That ain't you. Don't you even think about it. Don't you even think about it until you've been down the path of of titrating yourself up to that and understanding what can happen. Because I tell you, I've done a hundred, I've done 105, and literally, even me, I had to sit in the corner and go, oh my goodness, what did I just do? Realizing that, oh no, my body wasn't ready for 105. It was ready for 100. Wasn't ready for five. And now, like, I truly consume about 10 milligrams every night, um, um, about an hour and a half before I go to bed, and it gives me some of the most relaxable, restful sleep that I've ever had in my life.
Wonderful. Well, it's like prescription medication. If I were to prescribe you a high blood pressure medication, I'm not going to give you a high dose. I'm going to give you a small, small dose, measure your blood pressure, see if it's controlled, have you come back to the clinic in a few weeks. You know, diabetes medication, I'm not going to give you a large dose of Metformin to begin with, right? We do start slow. And, and, and with prescription medications as well. The beauty is, this is herbal medicine. So, you know, if you're in tune with your body and you can keep track of what's working and and optimize your dose, this is beautiful. It could be a really beautiful thing. Um, you're proactive with your health, but same thing, you would start slow and go, go low.
Have you noticed cannabis, cannabis's interaction with other medications? Has there been any deleterious kind of effects, or are there medications that you should avoid when you're using cannabis? I mean, I've heard the rumors of, you know, sometimes cannabis can spike, and some people can spike blood pressure. Yes, heard that as a rumor. And then, you know, when, and some, same people who have said that they had a spike, they try it again, and there is no spike. It might be be based on the type of way that they actually consumed it.
That's right. I mean, it's, yeah, and it's something, you know, it's new. It's like, if you use skincare, if you use a new skincare, you're going to patch test a little bit to make sure you don't get an allergic reaction. So if you're using cannabis, it might spike your blood pressure, might your heart might raise for a little bit, but then it goes back down to baseline. Um, if you're combining it with other medications, just like any nutraceutical, any herbal medications, you want to separate it at least three hours apart from your prescription medication. It can affect the metabolism of blood thinners, epilepsy medications, for example. It can work, um, you know, and interact with certain anti-anxiety medications, antidepressants. So just take it about three hours apart. And also understand, you know, how you need to take it. Some people can actually consume in a vape or smoke, some people can actually consume better edibles or topicals or tinctures. I mean, each individual, it's an individualized thing because we all have our own individual endocannabinoid system, correct?
That's correct. That's correct. We're very unique. Our own endocannabinoid system is very unique. And, you know, for the, for the layman out there, why don't you explain a little bit about that? I love having experts like yourself being able to explain that to our listeners. Tell them what that endocannabinoid system is. All mammals have this system in them, right?
Absolutely. And the endocannabinoid system, if you think about it, it overlays all of the other systems in your body. So in science, you've learned about your digestive system, your respiratory system, how you breathe, you learned about your immune system. Well, this endocannabinoid system affects all of the other systems in your body. It helps bring your body back into balance when you're sick, when you're nervous, um, when you're trying to sleep, it brings your body back into balance. And that's how you do it with cannabinoid medicine.
And for those people out there who are trying to figure out, well, okay, I got you, I get you, Dr. Chin, but now when I go into a dispensary, there's like thousands of, there's this stuff up there, and I don't know which one I should pick. You know, how do I, how do I understand how to navigate the current way cannabis is being, uh, sold or being sold? There are hundreds and hundreds of SKUs, hundreds of products right out there.
You're right. It's very, very overwhelming. Number one, you want to make sure that you are going to a regulated state dispensary. You want to make sure that those products are third-party tested. They come with a certificate of analysis, meaning they've been tested for pesticides, for solvents, um, for fungus, for mold. That's very important, especially if you're using inhaled, uh, cannabis medicine. Um, and then, um, certain dispensaries have pharmacists, certain dispensaries have very knowledgeable budtenders. But if you don't feel comfortable and you don't understand what's going on, and you want to talk to someone that can, um, give you some expert advice on your other medications or how you integrate it with your health and wellness, then you can come to Leafwell and see one of our health providers.
So anything else you'd like to add, Dr. Chin? Especially, number one, I want you to give your stats out again. Let people know where they can go to get more information.
Yes, they can go to leafwell.com, and we have all of the information there. We have a research dashboard that you can actually walk into. And let's say you're want to pick chronic pain, or you're want to pick rheumatoid arthritis, um, it can tell you all of the, um, the, the, the science out there, the published research on your ailment, and which body type, you know, which, uh, which body, um, system, uh, is affected, and what research is out there.
And maybe one more question for those people that are listening right now who've tuned in just because they're kind of curious, but they also are a little trepidatious. They don't know, you know, what advice would you give a person who's skeptical about using cannabis for health and wellness?
You know, I mean, cannabis is not a cure-all. It's not a silver bullet, but really, the research shows that its potential for managing conditions safely is compelling. So for someone that is unsure about it, I would say tune into, you know, your obviously, uh, your podcast, but if there's, there's a lot of great, you know, um, tangible research out there that is understandable for the layperson. Um, and take, take your time. You know, don't grab your grandson's gummy, I would say that, you know, or, or if your friend makes a brownie, you know, don't start there. You really want to start with a product that is well-labeled, you know, that is microdosed, a small dose, you know, maybe a fast-acting one, like you had mentioned, but you want to start with a reliable brand that's third-party tested. I wouldn't start with things that someone has gifted you, um, that someone made at home because you can really overconsume and you can take a dose that's much higher than what your body is ready for.
Yeah, I always say, if it doesn't have a COA, stay away. Right? Because the truth of the matter is, there's enough stuff out there right now in the marketplace, black market. You know, we know that, you know, what is it? In 2021, over, we sold over $25 billion worth of cannabis in America in the, in the green market, but we sold probably $75 billion worth of cannabis in the black or gray market. And that still exists right now. So I, I suggest to people, be very careful, you know, what you consume, and make sure that what you get comes with a COA, you know, from a dispensary, a licensed dispensary, so at least you understand what you're getting.
Dr. Chin, I can't say thank you enough for being here. This conversation has been extremely enlightening, and your expertise and passion, you know, for patient care shines through everything you do. Please, I'd love to have you back at another time if you have time. I'd love to chop it up again some more so we can continue to give our patients as much education and knowledge as they can, they can absorb. Thank you so much.
There's always lots to talk about. Absolutely.
You be well. You take care of that family of yours. And you guys make sure you keep tuning in. Let's Be Blunt with Montel. Thanks for joining me on Let's Be Blunt with Montel. Please make sure you're subscribed and hit the bell to be notified when new episodes post each week. We'd love to hear your feedback also, so please send us your comments.
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