Transcription
Hi guys. Hey.
I'm Kalia. And I'm Chinasa. And we are, yes, two girls who happen to be matching for the third week in a row unintentionally. The third week in a row unintentionally. It's so crazy.
Yeah. Great minds think alike. Seriously, I even got the black beanie on my head. Like that's wild. That's so crazy. God is good.
We won't have to have any like, um, branding discussions about what we should or shouldn't wear because we're always, we always there. We're always on point with it.
Have you heard of, um, this is an icebreaker. Have you heard of, um, different worship teams like where they'll send out like a wardrobe packet to the leaders on the team so that they all are in the same colors? They're color-coded?
But I've seen that before. I've seen that at a church that I visited recently and everyone was wearing blue.
Everyone was wearing blue. It looks cool.
Yeah, it does. But it's interesting that it's like an intentional decision. Right. Oh, speaking of choirs, I'm trying out for my church choir. Everybody pray for me. Actually, I think, no, if one of my church, anybody in my church is watching, they're like, "Girl, it's not a try out." I found out it's not a try out. It's an acceptance. It's an all-inclusive doctrine of singing.
Oh, so anyone in the choir?
Yeah, I, I literally just found that out yesterday. So, I was practicing like I was practicing, y'all. And it's just like, it's not a point anymore. But I'm going to still show up to the interest meeting.
Anymore? Did you used to be in the choir? Did you used to be able to sing?
I've never been able to sing. I've, I've, you know, when I was a kid, I was in the kids choir, which was so fun to me. And then as I got older, I took singing lessons in 2020. And I've been told, people tell me like, I can sing. I've heard that. But I feel like people that tell me that are just being polite.
So, cuz I hear myself and I'm just like, "Yeah, no."
Well, your mom. Moms are honest.
No, my mom is not going to know how to tell me that because I think my mom is kind of tonedeaf. So she would have no clue. Like she thinks I can sing, sing to the end of the world, but I don't think she also thinks Agatha Moses can sing. If you know who that is, if you're Nigerian, look, look her up. And then come back.
Okay. So, she, you didn't think she's qualified to give you?
Oh, no. No. Not at all. Sorry, Mom. Sorry, Mom. I love you, Mom. But not at all.
Okay. You're trying out for the choir just in general. That's what you said. Or is, okay, that's great. So, you'll be on, how often? How often would you serve?
Who knows? That's the question. Probably maybe regularly. Maybe like twice a month.
That's great. You guys send me some pictures. Make sure you first. Do you guys do robes?
No. No. They just, they do the, the regular gear, whatever you feel like coming in.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I got to see some photos. That's exciting.
Yeah. We're having a, uh, Easter production and I, I asked my worship leader what they were doing and she said, "We're gonna have a choir." And I was like, I could be in the choir for the Easter production.
Yeah, I heard you sing. You can sing.
Yeah, a little bit. But don't tell people that because they gonna be like, you be on Facebook, on YouTube singing, girl, whatever it is, Instagram. You be singing. You get a, a clip on and you start off singing a song. I said, okay.
That was one time and everyone in the comments was like, "GIRL, WE DIDN'T KNOW YOU COULD SING."
Right. Right. Right.
I do love music. I really do love music. My sister is a self-taught keyboardist, pianist. She taught herself how to play the piano at 17 years old, which is insane to me. She's like a superhero. And then, um, we've been on worship teams together. So I've always like sung alongside her, which has been cool. But I haven't done worship in a few years now since, like I want to say like 2023. I just feel like there are other things that like I have more grace capacity to do on a Sunday morning. You know, I'm, I'm very like social and personable. So, I'll be out there, y'all. I'll be out there with the sign.
That's so cool. Oh my gosh, that's interesting because I feel like I used to be more social, but the pandemic changed my personality and now I'm just like, I'll just go sit in my seat and mind my business and sit there.
We got to break out of that. Do people walk up to you and ask you about the show at church?
Yeah. Yeah, they do. They definitely do. So,
How does that feel?
Uh, not too bad. It just, it's regular conversation, so it's not, it's not nothing shell-shocking. So,
Used to it. How about you?
Yeah. Yeah. People come up often and ask me about it, but I feel the same. I feel like it's just, it's like a part of catching up, like, yeah.
Right. Exactly.
Yeah. So, it's pretty cool. People are chill about it, though.
We, you know what would be fun? We have to visit each other at church. No, for real. And then make some content from it. Like Chinasa at church.
Chinasa in the wild. Being boring, looking at my phone, just like minding my business and like taking my little notes and running out of there afterwards.
Yes, we got to get some clips. That would be so fun. I think it's good too, like for people to see, I guess we're content creators, but for people to see content creators like at church and in their local bodies, I think is like a good example to set too. So maybe one day coming to a city near you.
Right?
Okay. So we're talking about, um, something big. Something that made waves, actually. Did you see when it made waves in December?
Is that December?
Yeah. Christmas.
Okay. I saw, but I, I didn't click on any video. So I, I don't know. What I like generally know is who started it and their perspective, but I didn't watch anything about it.
Yeah, I haven't watched anything all the way through about it. So, I'm kind of coming into this. I mean, I've heard, I've heard things, but I'm, I'm coming into this a little bit green. So, Chinasa, would you like to introduce the topic of the day?
Yes. Oh, my yogurt. We are talking about a very serious and sobering topic. We're going to be talking about eternal conscious torment versus annihilationism. Essentially, we'll be talking about hell today.
Yep. Yeah.
So, yes, very sobering, like you said.
Yes. I, I, I literally have moments, I haven't had any recently, where I will have visceral reactions falling asleep thinking about what I believe to be the concept of hell. So, it's, it's a really a serious, bone-chilling concept. So,
Yeah, why do you think it's important for Christians to talk about hell? Because Jesus talked about it and he talked about it often. And it is, I think, I personally believe that if you present a gospel that is a partial gospel, then you do a disservice to truth. So if someone were to just walk up to you and say, "Jesus loves you," there's a time and a place for that, that's fine, but it's not the whole story. You know?
I think it's important to be evenhanded with our presentation of the gospel because you can allow people to really understand God, make an informed decision, understand what they are saying yes to or no to. In the same regard, in the same way we would want to make an informed decision on anything else and we want to know all the facts. I think that's how the gospel should be presented.
Yeah. No, I 100% agree with that. So, yeah. Annihilationism versus eternal conscious torment. And we are very curious about what you guys think about this topic because, um, people tend to have very strong opinions about it. So please share with us in the comments what your thoughts are too because we want to hear. Um, but yeah, I grew up with, kind of, I grew up with eternal conscious torment as the default. Like, I didn't even know what annihilationism was probably until a few years ago. Um, and I grew up with, like, did I talk about this before? Like the "To Hell and Back" plays on Halloween.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Where we would be in those plays. I wouldn't be in the play. I wasn't, I wasn't of age. I wasn't at the age of accountability, as the saints say.
Oh, wow. Really?
They would just let like the kids 12 and up or like the teenagers be a part of the play. So I was too young at the time that we were attending that church. But the whole point of those plays was to kind of convey this idea of eternal conscious torment. Um, if you don't follow the Lord Jesus Christ, then this is where you will end up and you won't, there will be no taking it back. There will be no repentance once your life ends. And so, um, people need to be made aware of the fact that hell is real and hell is a very scary place. And so, that's kind of the perspective I grew up with. Um, I still hold that to an extent. Um, I think I'm still trying to process like what the second death is. Um, as far as the lake of fire and what that means for eternity. I think that when people die now, anyway, they are in eternal conscious torment. Um, but yeah, I'm still wrestling. I'm still wrestling with it. You guys will see me hold a lot of things with eschatology pretty loosely just because I feel like I grew up with people holding it very tightly and it was a salvation issue. So I kind of swing the other side where I'm like, "Okay,"
Wow. Salvation issue. I didn't know that. Cuz I'm not that versed in eschatology. I just, I would say I just kind of found out the word for it like probably a month ago, you know. So, um, but I grew up similarly. I have never really been exposed to anything other than eternal conscious torment except very recently. I didn't know that was even a thing.
Yeah. And I didn't have this hell and brimstone upbringing, but for me, it was just a reality or a fact or it was a part of the duality of God. Like he's loving, but he also has wrath, right? So I never really understood it to be this, honestly, I was never afraid of hell. And even now, I'm not afraid of hell. Not in the sense that I want to go there, but it wasn't this big spooky boogie thing. It was just like, that's a place that exists.
Yeah. Um, it's a reality and of course, who wants to go there. So that was my, that was my upbringing as it relates to it. I didn't hear a lot. I don't think I ever heard any hell and brimstone preaching or message. I feel like that was before, and I'm older than you, but I still feel like that was like the preachers in, I don't know if you've ever heard of like S.M. Lockridge. I haven't looked at or like David Wilkerson, even though David Wilkerson was, yeah. So I don't, I haven't, growing up, I didn't hear preachers talking about like hell and, you know, all these things. Sorry if I'm going dark. That's why I tried to use my, my phone last time so that my laptop for, forgive me, gosh. Anyway, so yeah, that was my upbringing. But I've been doing some research and so I've, I've come to some thoughts and conclusions that I would like to share.
Yes, share them. So I started looking into the history of the concept of hell and I found some interesting things. So the concept of hell comes from a place called Gehenna. And Gehenna is an actual valley right outside of Jerusalem. The name "Ge" means valley or the word "Ge" means valley in Hebrew and then "Ben" is son and then "Hen" is an unidentified man in history. The name was eventually contracted to just be Gehenn in Hebrew and then it was transliterated to Gehenna in the Greek and then it took another turn by taking on the word "hell," which was already a word in existence. And so that's the English word, but that was the history of the, of the actual name. But the actual place started off, like I said, outside of Jerusalem. Outside of Jerusalem, there was this valley and within the valley, there was a certain ritual spot where Judah, Judeans would burn their children and pass them through the fire, burn them to the god of Molech. And so this is talked about throughout scripture, but then it stopped in 2 Kings. And I'll try to put the verses up because I know I've had some comments. 2 Kings 23:10. There's a king that comes along, King Josiah. If you guys are not familiar, he's one of the few good kings in Judah. Out of the 20 or 21 kings, there were only five. And he was one that was good from start to finish. Anyway, he came into his kingship, he was exposed to the law because he didn't know the law at, in the initial part of his kingship and they found the book of the law at one point and he realized like, "Oh wow, we have not been following the law." So he did these crazy reforms, like literally burned the city down and burned all these things down, burned down the Ashteroth poles. And one thing that he did in 2 Kings 23:10 was defile Topheth so that they specifically would not be able to sacrifice their kids to Molech. Now, some people say, Jewish traditions say, well, specifically a man named Rabbi Raak says that the Bible doesn't tell us explicitly what it meant by Josiah defiling Topheth. Some people believe that he turned it into like a trash pit, like a dumpster fire. This, like perpetual fire that was constantly burning so that no one could continue to burn their children there. And then the legend grows even bigger to the whole idea of like there were worms that didn't die and the fire didn't quench and, you know, they tie it back to scripture. Fast forward to Prophet Jeremiah and Prophet Jeremiah associates Topheth with judgment. So Jeremiah 7. He talks about the fact that from now on, it's going to be called the Valley of Slaughter. It's going to be basically like this overgrown graveyard and all the things. So I was thinking that the three things that are associated with that valley in scripture to me are the same things associated with what I think hell is.
Okay.
Number one, it's associated with sin, the sin of burning the children. Number two, it's associated with it being defiled, which, yes, this is not biblical, but Jewish tradition says that that means that it was turned into a constant fire, a dumpster fire. And then lastly, it was associated with judgment. Jeremiah made it a place associated with, um, perpetual judgment.
Right?
I think those elements are still true today. And I think the most problematic element for people is not sin. It's not that hell could be associated with judgment. It's the second part where it says it's like a constant fire and all of these things. So that's the history of the concept of Gehenna.
Okay.
What do you think about that?
I mean, that's, I didn't know any of that. So that's really, that's really interesting. Um, I guess my, what, from what I understand is what you said about that last part, like people don't have an issue with God's judgment, they have an issue with eternal suffering.
And I think it's hard for people to kind of see those things being parallel with each other. And one thing that, I actually heard this from, um, Mike Winger a couple months ago. One thing that I, like, that I thought was good that he said was like, we should not be, um, quick to make character judgments about God, regardless of where you stand. And I think that's what the, I think that's the issue is for people who are like hardcore annihilationists is like, God can have his judgment, but his wrath shouldn't be eternal because an all-loving and an all-merciful God would not allow something like this to be perpetuated for all of eternity. Or, I, I've heard, "Why does finite sin require infinite torture and damnation?" And I would just caution people against that because our righteousness is as filthy rags. And so to say to the potter, for the clay to say to the potter, "This is how you should carry out justice," and if you don't carry out justice in the way that I think that justice should be carried out, therefore, you're bad. And I, I think that's one, that's just like bad and, uh, borderline blasphemous. And I'm not saying that you can't wrestle with the Lord, but I just think we need to keep God in his rightful place. And he is a God of justice and wrath and goodness and mercy and all goodness and, and morality. We have because God put that morality inside of us. So we can't look to him, the author of all morality and goodness, and say, "You're less moral or you're less good because this makes me feel uncomfortable." The second issue I think I have with that line of thinking is that, um, your faith unravels if you don't make space for God to be judge or if you don't make space for God to be anything other than what your line of thinking is. So now all of a sudden, you're saying that God can't be merciful and you're deconstructing your faith because you think that God isn't merciful because of how he chooses to carry out justice. So not everything is detangling because you can't submit. And I think that's the biggest thing in this conversation and just eschatological conversations in general is like, are we humble enough to submit what we think is good to God?
Right?
Are we humble enough to say, "Okay, I don't understand this, but I know you're good."
Right. So whatever you choose to do, I'm going to believe and trust that that's in my best interest and that's in the world's best interest. So I just think that's a good framework to have having this conversation in general because, um, yeah, people try to put God on trial. They be trying God and God.
God will try you trying.
Yeah. No, it definitely takes a level of humility to walk with God, which is the reason why a lot of people fall away. I've come to believe that the way that you believe the gospel or understand the gospel is significant to the way that you live it out. Which, which means I've seen a lot of people that come to the gospel just purely based on logic only logic. But the problem is when things begin to be illogical to you in scripture, then you drift away. Or something come only based on the fluffy and fuzzy feelings and love and all these things. But when you are in, confronted with something that doesn't seem loving, then it's like, I can't serve that God. So to walk with God requires absolute humility, which thankfully is not something that we engineer ourselves, but it's something that he works in us, but we have to be willing to let him do that. So I agree with you. I, I, I'm always an advocate for letting God be God, even if that means that we look silly or confused or whatever the case may be, because God, the Bible says his ways are higher and, um, are higher. So at the end of the day, we have to understand that God is smarter and he's wiser and he knows best.
So he knows best and he's holy. So whatever he decides to do with what is unholy is his business.
Right. And then to that point that you made, I've heard that before, um, recently, the whole objection that you can't have or you shouldn't have a finite, um, an eternal consequence for like a finite sin. But I just feel like that's a bad starting point because if you think about sin in that sense, then you don't really understand the pervasiveness of sin. Think about just your thought life. I think the average person thinks maybe 30,000 thoughts a day. How many of those thoughts are actually pure, holy, and the Bible says, "May the meditations of our heart be acceptable to you, O Lord." How many of them are actually acceptable? Most of our thoughts are probably about ourselves, which is being preoccupied with yourself, which is pride. They're probably, sometimes we have angry thoughts. We have all manner of thoughts. And the point is, if you were just judged on your thought life alone for a week, I mean, you, I think that would be, what is that, 30,000 times seven? I can't do math.
Crazy.
350,000. It's a lot. At the end of the day. And so when people reduce it down to just like, "Oh, I just sinned for this moment," they don't understand the magnitude of sin. The Bible cautions us to see sin as exceedingly sinful. Beyond that, me being a pro-former prosecutor, I understand that it doesn't take a long time to shoot someone. Or, I mean, not even me being a prosecutor, just common sense tells you that in real time, a crime can be committed in a second, but in regards to the punishment, you're looking at several years, even just to get before a judge and get and get a trial. The process of that takes time. The wheels of justice is known to turn very slowly, and we don't gripe in that regard and say, "Well, this is unfair," or whatever the case may be. So I would submit to people who think that, just to really understand how expansive sin is, how, how real and, I guess, consequential it is. I mean, it literally brought Jesus Christ to this earth to die for our own misdeeds. So to think of it in those terms, I think, is just not understanding sin and the extensiveness of it.
Yeah. And I think too, like people limit sin to themselves or even their lifetimes, but they don't consider the fact that sin actually has a very long-term, if not eternal, impact influence. Like Adam and Eve's sin in the garden is the reason why we struggle with our sin today. It's like you said, it's, it's incredibly pervasive. Even though you feel like your little sin isn't something to warrant infinite punishment, your little sin created a domino effect for the people around you. Like you getting angry and cussing somebody out made the person you were cussing out stumble in anger and then maybe they're taking that home and they're they're lashing out on the people that they love and now the people they love are dealing with rejection because of what they received. Like it is continual. But we see this in generational curses, right? So it's like there's no just one-time thing and it doesn't, it, and there's no one-time thing that doesn't warrant the justice of God.
Right. Point.
I agree with that.
And I am of the belief that, I know Kalia, you said you're still wrestling, but I do believe, I just wanted to put this out there, that there is an eternal conscious hell tormenting. And I, I really don't like the idea that anyone would go there, but I can understand it and I can appreciate it because of the fact that it, it literally, without it, takes the, to me, it takes the sting away from sin.
Yeah.
Because if there was no place, if annihilationism is, is really true, then at the end of the day, you're not really losing much because you just cease to exist. And I think that God's justice is thorough. It's sweeping. It's exacting. And it's nothing to be played with. So to have an idea that I can be Hitler, if you know, for example, and then just disappear, I don't think that would align with God's, God's justice. So I just wanted to express my position.
Yeah. Do you have, um, passages that you want to pull? I have a few that I wrote to that I'm working through. Do you want to, um, pull some and then I can share them to screen?
Yes. Yes. I wanted to start with Genesis 2:17.
Okay.
And do you have a, a preference for translation?
Uh, no. I think I usually use KJV, but I'm fine with everything except.
Except what?
Except The Message.
Okay. The Passion too, girl.
Oh, girl. I heard about. I be turning up. I'm like, "Look, y'all give me my good old-fashioned regular daggers. I don't want no hood speak in my Bible just yet." You know?
Hood speak is insane. Okay, here we go. And at the age. Okay. Okay. So, I thought about this verse when defining death because it says, "But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. For when you eat of it, from from when you eat of it, why can't I read? You will, you will certainly die." And actually, in in New King James, it says, "In the day that you eat of it, you will surely die." And the significance of that to me is you get the clearest definition of death because in that day, they didn't drop dead. They didn't become annihilated. What died? It was a spiritual death. They became anxious. They became fearful. They began to lie. So you see that God defines death. So when you see passages about, um, this person goes to eternal life and this person goes to eternal death and people use that as proof to try to say, no, death means a literal death. You cease to exist. You're going to die. I'm like, well, how does the Bible define death? Because in Genesis 2:17 and another passage, Ephesians 2:1, you see that what's being referenced is not a physical death. Though physical death does occur with Adam and Eve and it occurs with human beings, but what's being highlighted is the spiritual death.
Right? I, I think that should be taken into consideration whenever Ephesians 2:1, whenever we are having the conversation about passages that highlight the word death and you looking at it from a very literal place. It says, "And you were dead in trespasses and sins." And so, I, again, same thing, you were previously dead, but were you literally dead? No, you were dead in the sense that Adam and Eve died. So, I think that is a good starting point to try to figure out what God means when he says death, um, and and how that affects our eternal destiny. So, those are just a couple, but you go ahead and go because I have a couple more I want to look at as well.
Um, okay. And just to clarify, you're saying that there's a distinction being made between spiritual death and physical death, right? And I think that when I, whenever people try to use verses to argue that, like, I believe, I don't remember it off the top of my head, but it's in, it's in Matthew. It says, "Some go away to eternal life and the other to eternal death." Um, or John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that whosoever believes in him will not perish." Um, when you see words like that with death and perish, a lot of times people that have the perspective that lines up with annihilationism, they advocate for like a literal, a literal perishing, a literal death, hence annihilationism. And I don't believe that if you look at scripture and see how God defined death from the very second page, Genesis 2:17, it says, "And in this day you will certainly die." They didn't drop dead. They didn't, they didn't physically die, but things within them died. So when we see scripture that says death and we want to use it as a proof text for annihilationism, we have to consider what death is being discussed.
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, I'll go to John 3:16 because this is, I was reading this to you and we all know it. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." So that word "perish" in the Greek is *apollumi*. I think I'm pronouncing it right. And it, and it means destruction. It means literal destruction. But the destruction of what is the question. The destruction of the soul or the destruction of the body? But here's where I'm wrestling because it says, "but have eternal life." So, does eternal life by default mean eternal life with Christ? Because an eternal life in hell, like the afterlife, that's still an eternal life. So it's, it's interesting to me that perish and eternal life are juxtaposed to each other like that because if people perish, if they're, if they're literally destroyed from the annihilationist perspective, then they would say, "Yeah, eternal life is reserved for only those who will dwell with Christ because eternal life is in Christ Jesus and Christ Jesus alone." Um, but obviously from the ECT perspective, it's that people will perish in the afterlife. Their souls will will be subjected to suffering and torture. But how is that different than eternal life? So that's one of the, that's one of the passages that I'm wrestling with. What are your thoughts?
I think that's a good, that's a good point to find some tension. I would define perish similar to how I define death. Um, I also, I think that when it says perish, it means that you will be destroyed, right? But destroyed doesn't necessarily have to mean obliterated. Like maybe I'm equivocating or going back and forth, but let's say you walked into your house and somebody ransacked it. The house, the structure is still standing, but the inside may be destroyed. So it doesn't necessarily mean that something is completely gone. But I feel like what essentially it could mean is, uh, that a constant decay, um, a persistent decay of of the soul in hell. Um, one verse that comes to mind with with this kind of, I guess, tension is 2 Thessalonians 9, I believe.
Search. What? What did it disagree like that? Thessalonians.
Oh, I think it's.
You're right. You're right. You're right. You spelled it right. I don't know why I tried to correct your spelling because I know I can't spell no Bible books.
I don't know why I even tried. So yes, they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction. See how that sounds conflicting? Like you have something that's eternal, but you have something that's being destroyed. Which one is it? And it says, "in the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." And I think that, um, the duration is being described and the quality of what's being experienced is being described. So again, it takes me back to my definition of destruction. Destruction doesn't have to mean obliteration. If somebody runs over your cell phone, it's destroyed. It's, it's, it's been through a lot. It's experienced unimaginable, whatever, but it's still physically there. And just, and imagine if that was something that happened for eternity. So I think that the two can actually coexist. I think you can have the duration of something with the perpetual loop of destructive.
You've been destroyed eternally.
Right?
And you are in eternal destruction.
Right?
So, it's, it's describing an action and a place.
Yes. I think it's describing an action and the duration or like you said, it could mean place. I think it's describing the length of which this is going to happen. But destruction, I don't think that destruction means obliteration.
Now, if it would have said that, I feel like there would have been a better case for annihilationism. Granted, I, I'm not saying that, I don't agree with it at all. I think, you know, logically, scripturally, um, and just all the other leagues, I don't agree with it. But I can understand why someone would have paused and say, "Hmm." Um, but I do believe that if it was something like eternal obliteration, that would be more of a tension that I couldn't reconcile. I couldn't reconcile. I know that's extreme, but I do believe that destruction is just, it's not, it's not, it's not in totality. It is the quality of something being reduced, but it doesn't mean that that thing is no longer there.
I understand what you're saying, but is the word obliteration used at all in the scriptures? Like, what word in the scriptures is being used to describe ultimate destruction or obliteration?
The words that I see are just destruction, perish, and death. But you don't.
And do you think they're synonymous?
Do I think those words are synonymous with, um, obliteration?
With each other or too?
I do. I do think perishing, dying, and destruction are all interchangeable. I think they're describing, um, essentially a separation from God that feels like a destruction, that feels like a death, that feels like a perishing, a wasting away, a drying up, whatever you want to call it, because your life source is not present. When you are near to God, you have God's peace. You have God's ability to rest. You have all of these things. But when those things are withdrawn, the soul, I believe, still exists. The soul is eternal. If Ecclesiastes 3:11, it says that he puts eternity in the hearts of men. So, I don't understand the purpose of putting eternity in the hearts of men when only some people are going to experience eternity. It's a concept that he gives us because we are eternal beings. We have a soul that doesn't ever cease to exist. So all of those words, I think, are interchangeable and they all, to me, describe ultimately a separation from God that feels like death, that feels like perishing, that feels like destruction.
Okay, I'm gonna push back.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
Okay.
Okay, so I think that there's a distinction between immortal and eternal. So, I think that eternal, only describes one person, that's Jesus Christ. Like he's existed, eternal. Jesus existed eternally. So before his incarnation and then he exists post, obviously, are eternal. So I think that we're immortal. Our souls are immortal in that once God creates them, they continue to exist past this life. Um, but I think that that's an important distinction because one argument that I did see for annihilationism too is that some of it is like, um, Greek, like philosophical or even mythological thought, um, that's kind of being read into the text that says, well, when God created our souls, we were with him forever and then we got a body and then we'll be with him in the end. But I actually believe that, like, I think the Catholics call it ensoulment, but I believe that ensoulment happened at conception. Like, I don't believe that we just were floating around before we had bodies and then we'll be floating around forever. I think that God creates us because we're created beings, right? So that means we can't be eternal for created beings. And then once we give our life to Christ, then we are given eternal life in him. Um, but that's not to say that I don't believe in eternal suffering because I do. I do believe in eternal suffering. I think for me, I just think that there's probably a distinction between what people are experiencing now and what people will experience in the second death. Like the Bible makes a distinction between the first death and the second death. So, what is the lake of fire and what happens to all the souls that are currently in Hades or Sheol once the lake of fire happens and that final judgment day happens? Um, and I would be okay if, I mean, it's very sad, but like, if God decided that everybody needs to suffer in the lake of fire forever, that that would be fine. But I just don't know that that's what the text says. I don't know that that's what the text says. It's Revelation, is it 20? And it's, and it's my thought on that particular verse is that obviously no one is in heaven or hell right now. Okay. We are, um, people are in a waiting or holding pattern that preempts their final destination. They haven't been judged. And I think in Revelation 20, it, it talks about them resurrecting and then, um, there's the first death, they resurrect and then there's the second death. My understanding of that is that the first death is the literal death that has to occur to humans. The resurrection is for the purposes of knowing finally your judgment. And then the second death is the continuation of that separation. So I don't know if that, that makes sense, but Revelation also speaks about Revelation 14. There's a verse in there that talks about, um, the smoke rising up eternally. And so the second death to me is similar to the first death. It's a death that is, um, separates you from life. God is life. The only distinction is that there is the resurrection so that you are judged. So I don't know. We can look at that text too. But yeah.
So what do you think about people who have like hell testimonies?
I don't give credence to any heaven or hell testimonies. I think it's all baloney and malarkey. I really do. I'm going to be honest. I'm going to just be stay with my chest. And this is why, and I'm, I'm happy to be wrong, y'all. We, I am not an expert on anything. I'm just giving my opinion, okay? So, if, if anybody takes beef with that or takes issue with that, that's perfectly fine. We can always disagree and still be Christian. But I don't like heaven tourism. I don't like hell tourism. I think it's very nonsensical because when you look at scripture, uh, Apostle Paul says, "I know a man who was caught up to the third heavens, whether in the body or outside of the body, I do not know. God knows. And what he saw was not lawful for one to utter." Paul is talking about himself that he had this vision or this experience where he's caught up to the third heaven because there's levels to heaven. The first heaven is the sky, the firmament. The second heaven apparently is the courts where Job, uh, kind of takes place, the backdrop of Job. So in this second heaven, Satan still has access to go to and from and all of these things. But the third heaven is God's temple where no one is or no one exists. And I believe that if Apostle Paul was caught up to the third heaven, and I don't know where these people are going in heaven, are they just going to the first heaven? I don't know. Maybe they're going to the second heaven. I don't know. But whenever I see these things, it's as if I saw Jesus and I saw God. And I'm like, well, Apostle Paul said he got caught up to the third heaven where God lives and what he saw is not lawful for him to utter. Why do you get to utter it? You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't think I don't give credence to any of those things. And beyond that, all of them contradict each other. I saw God and he has blue eyes and I saw God and he has green eyes and he's six foot and he's 42. I like to stick to what's in scripture. We can wrestle with scripture all day and we're pulling up text and comparing them and that, I think, is the best and safest foundation. But when you get off into the weeds, you get into these very fear-driven and like hyper, um, I don't know, mystical mysticism type of like theologies. And I, again, I'm big on the proper motivation to come to Christ. And I know a lot of people who have used these things as a basis for them to come to Christ and they don't stay. They don't last because what you're basing your understanding of the gospel on is somebody's perspective of hell and there were so many rats on the wall and no stop. Their hell don't even exist yet. First of all, the Bible makes that clear. So where did you go? Hell don't exist.
I don't know that I agree with you. I think,
I think that hell, I think that hell currently exists. Um, I think, and and maybe, maybe the common ground is like, maybe people are having visions of hell and that's what's propelling them to come to Christ. Maybe it's a hell that God is showing them will exist in the future. But I've heard way too many testimonies. I went to our church growing up, one of the deacons, like he was in a horrible car accident, lost his arm, had his whole arm come off, went to hell. I don't know how long he was in hell, and then came back. And to this day, he's still the armless deacon. And he tells that story and like it changed and transformed his life. He's been walking with the Lord for probably 30, 40 plus years now. So I just feel like, and Revelation 21 also says, "We overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony." So I don't feel like we can discount people's testimonies. I do agree with what you're saying like scripture is authoritative and we should line up people's testimonies with the word of God. What you're saying about like people meeting Jesus, I 100% agree with you. Like the word of God talks very clearly about the glory of God, how people fall before him, how you could die just seeing his glory. But like everybody, and also to not make images of God. So like I know that people who are constantly saying Jesus has blue eyes, green eyes, he's a Hebrew Israelite, he's a black man. Like, yes, I throw, that goes, all up. I 100% agree with you, sis. That's all going over my head. Like, yes, God's throne room is holy and majestic and the seraphim are around it according to Isaiah and Ezekiel saying, "Holy, holy, holy." I, I agree with you on, on as far as that. Like, but I don't think, I think people going to heaven and coming back with all these visions of what Jesus looked like in God's throne room is a little different than people going to hell, right? Because hell is a place of defilement. It's not holy in the way that God's throne and God's kingdom is. So to me, it's like there would be no barrier to someone going and seeing hell, in the same way that there would be a barrier to going and being in God's presence.
What do you think about Luke 16 where it talks about Lazarus who was taken up to Abraham's bosom and then the rich, uh, ruler who, not the rich ruler, whatever his name is, um, he was taken to, um, Sheol, the realm of the dead?
He wasn't taken to hell, he was taken to. So yeah, we could definitely read it. So Sheol, I could be wrong, but Sheol to me has always been synonymous with Hades.
I agree with that.
And I think the distinction is Sheol and Hades are essentially like a grave. Um, hell, what I understand hell to be is the, is the ultimate place of judgment that Revelation talks about when it's, it's thrown into the lake of fire and there torment rises and the worm doesn't die. I don't believe, I personally don't believe that place exists. I believe that on either side, you have a holding pattern. You have paradise, which is Abraham's bosom, and then you have, um, Sheol or Hades, which is a holding cell for hell. The reason is because the Bible talks about the final judgment. The final judgment is necessary for you to know without a shadow of a doubt that this is where I'm going and this is where I'm going to spend an eternity. Without that, I feel like it would make God unjust because you just, you know, you didn't have your day in court. So, I believe that you can know where you're going. You're going to know where you're going when you're judged. The Bible says, "It is appointed onto man to die once and then the judgment," in the book of Hebrews. So, I think that you can understand where you're going to go, but as far as the existence in the current reality of heaven or hell, I don't think those have been created yet. Even in, um, John 14, Jesus says, "I go to prepare a place for you." Had it not, had it not been so, I would not have said that I'm going to prepare a place for you. So, heaven is being prepared for us. The new heaven, the new earth. Those are not here yet. In the same way, hell is going to be a place that.
Death is cast into according to Revelation, what is it, 20 or 21? >> 20, I think. >> So, that's another beef that I have with the hell tourism. I think God can use anything. Kind of how we talked about in the other episode, once saved, always saved. God can use anything to get someone to where they want to be. I personally believe I came to Christ through false prophecy, through a personal so I I believe that if someone went and saw a video, it's not such a a a horrible thing to me. Like I don't cringe and die. I just don't give you can tell me that till you're 85. I will look at you smile and in the back of my head I'm like I don't believe any of that is literal. Did you have a dream? Did you have an experience? Sure you might have. Mhm.
>> But because of my perspective that hell is not yet in existence, where are y'all going? And because of my other perspective that even Apostle Paul who went to the highest heaven says it's not lawful for him to even discuss what he saw, then why are y'all discussing it? So I I thumbs up. If it brings you to Christ, I'm not I'm not going to knock it, but do I believe it? I the first book I started reading in line with this and I was just like, "No, this does not there's nothing in scripture. I'm a very black and white. Let me find it in scripture. Let me see in scripture." um 23 Minutes in Hell by by Bill Weiss. I remember reading that book when I was a kid and it was like, "Oh, there's rats on the wall everywhere." And I'm like, "Bro, what are you talking about?" Like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, but that's my perspective. But just so y'all are watching and see and know, we don't agree about everything because there's some common sense like, "Do y'all disagree about anything?" Yeah, we do.
>> And we didn't know we disagreed about this until this conversation. So, this is a treat. This is a treat.
>> Okay. But I was g So let me read this really quickly and then I had a question a clarifying question. So it says this is what's getting me. It says the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades being in torment, >> he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame." Get out of here. But Abraham said, "Child, remember that you in your lifetime receive your good things and Lazarus in like manner bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish." So it's describing a place of anguish. It's saying and it's and it's associating even flames with this place of anguish. It's associating the place Hades >> with fire. It's talking about being unquenched, needing water to cool the tongue. Um, and in Hades being in torment, then he lifts up his eyes to Abraham and then is taken to Abraham's bosom. So to me, I feel like that's obvious that there is a hell that currently exists and has existed for the wicked since the beginning of of time. I believe since people started dying. Um I believe yeah I just believe in one judgment and then another judgment which I heard what you said about maybe the first death like the actual physical death we die is the judgment of our sin and then there's that second judgment. But I feel like there's enough in scripture to describe a spiritual afterlife. And then also in Hebrews 12 where it talks about the great cloud of witnesses. The um whatchamacallit the hall of fame. Is that Hebrews 12 or Hebrews?
>> No, that's 11.
>> Oh, Hebrews 11. There it is. Okay. It's tested through Isaac. I'm looking for I think it's surrounded by great cloud of witnesses. So, so cast off every restraint. Um,
>> where is that? What vers 12? I I don't I don't think that's Hebrews 11.
>> Yes, that is Hebrews 12.
>> 12. Let me look it up. It up in here. Great flat of witnesses. Hebrews 12:1. Yeah,
>> I don't know how I missed that. Okay. Hebrews 12:1. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely. And let us run with endurance the race that is set before us. Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfector of our faith, whose joy was set before him and endured the cross, despising the shame and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. And then the previous chapter is about all the different w like the the elders in the faith. So
>> I think I think that heaven currently exists and I think that hell currently exists
>> and I believe on judgment day people are going to receive their final like status. So if you're currently in hell, you're going to stand before the white throne of judgment and be thrown into the lake of fire and either completely be annihilated. you will cease to exist because God is life and I don't really know how you have life without him. But it you could suffer forever. I'm not, like I said, I'm not completely decided on that. But I do think that there there's a distinction between where we go when we die currently and where we'll go on judgment day. And I think there's probably a passage about this in Revelation somewhere. Hm.
>> Yeah. I've always understood it to be that um that those two locations are that we see in scripture like Abraham's bosom and Shil, they're similar. They're holding patterns. You you're going to know where you're going, but they're not the eternal resting place because the Bible talks about create. What do you think about the fact that he says he's that he's creating a new heaven and a new earth? Isaiah 66. Um that's obviously in Revelation, but um would you pull up Isaiah 66 22- 24? Isaiah 66. I agree that it's not the final place. Like I agree with you in that. And maybe maybe we're communicating the same thing but saying it differently. 24-2.
>> 22 through 24. The last two verses.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. It says, "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain for from the new moon and from the Sabbath to Sabbath. All flesh shall come to worship before the Lord." And 24 says, um, Oh, would you click off of it? Okay. And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be in abhorance to all flesh. I think you get all the the eternal places, not necessarily. You have the new heaven, you have the new earth, and then you have an illusion to a hell that is tormenting in this particular passage. And this is what Jesus actually quotes in the book of Mark. And so I think that based on that and other places, I do think, you know, you don't die and just have a a field day and a party if you're if you never receive Christ as your Lord and Savior. I think it will be very similar, but it's not the final. It's kind of like it's I would say it's more akin to being in a holding in a holding jail, like a holding cell. You're not actually in jail. You're in a holding cell. You know that you have no freedom and you can't go anywhere and it's not fun. is very similar, but you haven't been sentenced to know, okay, I'm on death row or I'm on this cell block and I'm here. So, it has similarities, which is why you see that the man in the the rich man in Luke 16 was tormented and then you see that Abraham was with, you know, Lazarus and he was comforted. But, or could it be that? So ultimately I think that Hades is similar to the final destination of hell and Abraham's bosom is similar to the final destination of heaven. The distinction is that God's judgment is required because he's a just God.
>> So that's why I think
>> it doesn't it doesn't exist just yet.
>> But I mean no it's not it's not actual a big deal. I haven't ever had a conversation like this specifically, but I appreciate it because how many times do I even have a conversation about hell with anybody who's willing to have a conversation with me about
>> I think I think I feel like we're kind of saying the same thing, but the thing that's tripping me up is you saying that it doesn't exist at all. Like to me, the fact that there's a there's a jail cell that has torment and flames and other creeping crawling things. Like, that's hell enough. Like, but you're saying they know that they're going to hell because they're experiencing a version of hell. Like, that's that's what I think the middle ground is. Like, they are experiencing some version of hell and they're experiencing some version of paradise, but they're not in their eternal placement yet. And they'll be in the eternal placement after judgment day.
>> Right.
>> Right. So, we kind of agree.
>> That's bigger.
>> That's not too far off.
>> We kind of agree. Like whether it's whether it's hell or not, it's it's hellish. People are in I think that people are in a hellish place awaiting judgment.
>> Exactly. I can agree with that. And yeah, I think people are in a in a resting like place or heavenly place, Abraham's bosom, awaiting to be in that new created heaven.
>> Yeah. Because the current heavens implicates that there's some version of a heaven now,
>> right? And the current heaven is defiled because the way I understand is Satan still has access to the Bible says he goes to and fro where have you come. So he has access he's the he's the accuser of the brethren. Where does he make those accusations? I always see the second heaven as you know the backdrop of Job. I always see it as literally a courtroom where Satan is the prosecutor and he's constantly bringing charges. And so obviously that is a defiled you know heaven that he has access to. So it's going to be recreated. So yeah, but yeah, we're we're we're similar. We're not so far off and it's not a very very significant disagreement. So
>> no, it's interesting though because I feel like um Yeah, like you said, people don't really talk about hell.
>> Yeah.
>> People don't know what to make of these passages, so it's fun to wrestle through them. And this ended up being more about hell than annihilationism.
>> Right. Right. Yeah. And so because I don't I mean I think annihilationism is pretty straightforward. But we we did cover it. It's the idea that you do not exist because God like you said um which you know he's the giver of life. He gives eternal life and if you are not with God for eternity then you no longer have life. So that's essentially I think their understanding in the passages about death and um being juxtaposed with eternal life as opposed to just like not it doesn't say eternal death or eternal you know but then how would you even say that like oh eternal like you think the Bible really gonna say eternal conscious torment like you know I don't know but that's a it's like how would you how would God write it so that it would communicate to the reader that on this end it's eternal life and then oh which there's another passage that I want look at really briefly while we pull this up. Daniel 12:2 um eternal life and then these other people are going to go away to eternal um I don't know I don't know how so 122 yes so it says this is a good passage to to and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt.
>> So that's a good juosition. Maybe if it said that everywhere throughout scripture, maybe people wouldn't really have a issue with it because I think that's pretty clear. You have two everlastings
>> and you have people waking up to one of them being an everlasting good place and one of them being an everlasting bad place.
>> So yeah,
>> shame and everlasting contempt. Yeah, that is a good passage.
>> That's a good one.
>> Yeah.
>> Um well that's annihilationism guys. annihilationism and eternal conscious torment. Let me
>> all of that is a mouthful. I like I just like I I like oh lord I just I again I grew up thinking hell was just everybody understood it to be one thing but now we have to make distinctions and say all these
>> but I think that's the dividing line too is like if somebody doesn't believe that hell exists currently then I could see why it's very easy to come to the conclusion that hell is eternal conscious torment in the end of days because you don't necessarily believe that people are receiving judgment. now versus the annihilationist perspective. Well, actually, I don't think this is an annihilationist. This is probably my perspective. I saw a comment that said eternal uh eternal conscious torment unto annihilationism. So, like I'm of the belief that people are receiving conscious torment and suffering now for the weight of their sins and then maybe they will be completely annihilated in the end when they're thrown into the lake of fire. Or they won't be. But, you know,
>> but I think will not find out like on personally and I and honestly by the grace of God for real for real none of our family will find out Lord let neither of our friends find out I don't want to be a part of that science experiment I don't want anyone I know to be in that field test Lord because it's not it's not good and it's not
>> it's not worth it. I remember my sociology professor used to come into the classroom he said you know I want to go to hell because I want to do a sociology experiment down there. I'm like, are you really on crack like that?
>> Yeah, that's crazy. That's what I have to say.
>> And to think this will even have agency in hell is wild. Like, you think you're going to walk around and do what you want. IT'S LIKE THOSE I'MMA PARTY WHEN I get there.
>> Oh my gosh. Like, hey girl. No.
>> No, you won't.
>> Yeah.
>> No, you won't. The grace of God, we need it. We need more of it. Especially in these days, the days of Noah. Yeah. Yes, indeed. So, you want to do our Bible thoughts or do you want to do Bible trivia? What are you thinking?
>> Uh,
>> because we have to take the edge off with that. We have to do something a little
>> lighthearted. We can do trivia. We can do trivia.
>> Okay.
>> That was really fun. I enjoyed myself.
>> Yeah, that was I love how chill the conversations are
>> cuz you come in thinking like with the one saved always saved. I told you I was like I was a little nervous cuz I was like I've never aired my perspective on that.
>> Yeah.
>> Publicly. But it was just it was a cool chill conversation. I mean we were just just two girls trying to figure it out and trying to converse on things that are important to us. So I like that we can do that in a very neutral and respectful way.
>> Yeah. It was a little Bible study
>> pretty much.
>> Okay. I'm going to share my screen. $1,000. But I share screen.
>> Okay. Share. Um.
>> Oh, wait. Do I have to make Oh, okay. I have to put it on or something.
>> Okay. Chinasa, what do you want?
>> Okay. I will take I'm not good with numbers. So, I would take uh Joshua, the promised land for a thousand.
>> How many spies did Joshua send out to the city of Jericho? Was it
>> Are you kidding me? I thought this was 12. How How is it more than How many spies did Joshua send out to the city of Oh, to Jericho. So, 12 spies is when they were going to spy out the land of Canaan. I'm mixing that up. Okay, I'm gonna take a wild guess and say 40. I don't No, wait. No, I I know the answer. I know the answer. Please don't click 40.
>> Okay.
>> Withdraw your hand. As he as Do you know where that comes from? Withdraw your hand.
>> No. What is that?
>> When Saul was um going to uh prophet Samuel and Samuel was about to start praying. He said, "Withdraw your hand." I'm like, "That's your problem. You can't take the prayer out of Israel, BOY. THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM. Don't tell him to withdraw his hand. THAT'S WHY YOU HAD TO GO TO THE WITCH indoor
>> struggling the way you are." Okay. Okay. For real. So, he sent two spies. I'm going to say two spies. What if I'm wrong? It was 40. I'm going to cry.
>> So hard. Wait, that How was that a thousand? That's one of those things that it was too hard that it was kind of too easy at the same time.
>> Yeah.
>> You said the two spies and she hid them. Rahab hid them in the
>> Yep. With the scarlet. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm gonna do Who said to whom New Testament for 800?
>> That's a good one.
>> Who spoke the following words? And when ye shall see this is does it say New Testament
>> and I saw Ezekiel and Isaiah got confused. who spoke the words, "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is near." I'm going say,
>> "Come on, that that would so these questions are very inconsistent because sometimes a thousand will be like insanely hard or 800 and then now they're like very straightforward." It's like I actually read that yesterday, Luke 21.
>> Oh, that's cool.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that was crazy. I'm like, what? I thought I clicked the wrong category for a second.
>> Oh, click to continue because that will help you. You're right.
>> Okay, but next time. Okay, so I'm gonna do who said
>> I think I can go forward.
>> Oh, true. Click. Okay.
>> Okay, good. I'mma do who said what for a thousand. Let's see.
>> A little bit more challenging. Who said purge out there for the old leaven that she may be a new lump? That's Isn't that Paul? Like Paul said that a little leven the whole lump to the Corinthian church. I'm guessing. Let's see what
>> we did it. Okay, I'm gonna do
>> a thousand is easy. Like stick is they they're giving us some some lowhanging fruit with a thousand.
>> All right, I'll do life of King Saul and David for a thousand. Which one of the following was not David's son?
>> That's really in a thousand.
>> Ahoam. I think that was his son. Huh?
>> I think that was his son.
>> Uh, Shepha.
>> I don't think so. But I mean, this is your Yeah.
>> Chilab.
>> That I think. I'm sorry. I'm getting excited.
>> Chiliab. I think that's one of his sons. Mhm.
>> Eith doesn't sound very familiar. Shepha, I'mma go with Esther. Sure, I'm gonna be wrong. A Heno. That's crazy. Oh, a Henam of Jezro. That was his wife. Wait, click on that. Let me see because I need to a Heno was a a woman. Okay. C Can you click on 2 Samuel 3:25? It'll take you to the bottom.
>> Yeah, I'm letting it load.
>> Oh my gosh. Oh, I think that was his girl.
>> He had too many. How are we supposed to know?
>> Exactly.
>> He had too many.
>> I definitely was. I was going with Chef D in my head, but you know. Okay. I think share the screen. tricky.
>> That's crazy. Share this tab instead. Can you see that? Okay.
>> Okay. Oh, yay. I was Okay. And David were born. He his first born was Amnen. See, I got it right.
>> Henowim. And Amnen and Henim kind of have the same letters in it, too.
>> I remember Amnen is the one who raped or sexually assaulted. Maybe we can't say that.
>> His sister.
>> His sister Tamar. Shame on him.
>> Tisk tisk. And David didn't do nothing about it.
>> Nothing at all. And the second of Abigail, the wife of Nibal.
>> Wow. Well, the more you know.
>> The more you know.
>> Okay. Do you want to do another one?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Let me stop sharing. Oh, I have to go. It's 609.
>> Oh, okay. Yeah, we can. Here, we can do one more. Okay. We'll do one more and then we'll close out in prayer. Okay. Oh, you can't see it yet. Share.
>> Okay.
>> Can you see?
>> Uh, no. Is it It's not still up there yet. Okay, there it is. Okay, we'll just do New Testament for a thousand.
>> Okay. Oh, is it going to give us
>> No, no, the top one. The very top one. The first Yeah.
>> Okay. Who helped Peter write his first letter? Wasn't it Mark? Wait, let me Well, actually, I don't know. I have no clue. Peter had help. Dang.
>> I haven't I Who I can't even tell you. I'mma have to say, let me just take a wild guess and say I don't know. You can guess on this one because I have no clue.
>> Peter.
>> I didn't know he had help. Peter wrote his first book for Let me try to think. I have no clue.
>> Peter, Luke, John.
>> I don't think it's Titus. Who is John? Would it be John Mark? Let's say John Mark. Maybe John is short for John Mark. It was Silus. Lord Dang, that's wild.
>> It was Silus.
>> We tried our best. We did pretty good.
>> Listen, we tried, guys. All right. Well, let's pray out. That was a very fun episode. Keep it cute in the comments, okay?
>> People can lovingly disagree. It's fine. And do your Bible trivia alongside us. Lord Jesus, thank you so much for the time to be able to come together to study your word, Lord God, and to just learn more about you, to have fresh perspectives and fresh understanding, God. God, I pray that you would just um continue to be present as we do these conversations, Lord God, and as we study your word. And we pray that it would be edifying for everybody who's watching, Lord Jesus, God, that you would go um behind us and beside us and above us, Lord God, and that you would cover each and every one of us, Lord Jesus. God, I pray that you would continue to stir the hunger in the generation of people who are watching this show and who are a part of this movement, Lord God. And I pray, God, that you would just increase our desire to know you, know your word, and know you more. We worship you and we glorify you. In your might, mighty name we pray. Amen.
>> Amen. Amen. Thank you for watching, guys. Bye, guys.