Transcription
Here's something the liberal media frankly is just not talking enough about. And I get it. There's too much to focus on. But we're going to focus on this one here today. And that's the Venezuelan boat. The Trump administration destroyed an operation that the US says targeted drug traffickers but left 11 people dead. Now, reports are surfacing that the video used to show the successful operation, the explosion may have been AI generated. But what does it mean when the US can launch a deadly operation like this without any congressional oversight? Why has it received so little attention? And can we really believe an administration that just lied about the impact of its own bombing campaign in Iran?
To dig into this and so much more, I'm joined by Steve Schmidt, one of the sharpest political minds I know and my old boss, actually, from my time as communications director at the Lincoln Project, where he, of course, was a founder. This is a really important interview because from there, we widen into American democracy, the American spirit, and the looming collision between Trump's assault on both and the country's future. So, as these forces move toward a direct clash, the American spirit and Donald Trump's unwillingness to follow the Constitution, the question really becomes, will American democracy bend, break, or endure? Here's Steve Schmidt.
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Thank you so much for taking the time, uh, to join the channel. Uh, I am, I am, first off, just a huge fan of your insights, but also your writing. I think no one writes like you on your Substack. There's something very poetic about it and, uh, you're also extremely intentional with how you say things. And if anyone isn't subscribed, I recommend they do it. You are, from what I understand, everything's, it's free and, you know, if you pay, but >> we do like it when people, when people do do the paid subscriptions too. >> Yes. Well, it, yes, it's important to support democracy, but >> it is free. It is free. >> Um, well, I wish >> but I appreciate that. >> Yeah. Yeah. It'll be linked below. So, uh, for anyone who hasn't seen it, and, and I do really appreciate your, uh, the way you frame things. You're, you're not just, uh, hysterical, you're intentional, which I think is important at this moment in time.
So, uh, I'm sorry we're meeting under these circumstances, but I'm glad we are meeting because there's something that I think is really eluding the liberal, the liberal side of all of this that's happening. That's the, this Venezuelan boat, which I think is kind of, maybe a, it feels like it's a small thing in the grand scheme of things of everything that's happening. But I actually think it's part of like a really larger problem, which is like the Trump ad, and tell me if I'm wrong, but the Trump administration is just starting laws. They're deciding who and who gets murdered and why for no reason. There's no, there's no like trial. It seems completely un-American that the largest government in the world killed 11 people without any due process.
>> Well, the most disturbing thing about it is the flippancy by which Marco Rubio talked about it. Um, the bluster with which he talked about it. And I'm old enough to remember all of his pining biblical quotes from his Senate account. And so a couple years back, I said something about Marco Rubio that upset him a great deal and it got Ted Cruz involved in a big Twitter exchange. Said was that Marco Rubio is completely full of [ __ ] and that if Marco Rubio was alive in Cuba in 1959, he would have been not on a refugee boat. He would have been dressed in olive drab and carrying Fidel's briefcase. That's who Marco Rubio is. And that case is closed. Period.
And so, couple of things about the boat. Does it make sense to you that there's 11 people on the drug smuggling boat? Do they usually travel in >> a football-sized team configuration? I wonder who the left end was, right, on the on the boat. Two. Um, I am not an expert at interpreting satellite imagery. Um, but I do know a lot about boats and that boat to me. Um, again, it could have been a much larger boat than it seemed, but I'd like somebody to explain how that boat at that size was going to make it to American waters on a single tank of gas from Venezuela, right? Bad idea to drive your Tesla, right, across the Mojave Desert. Same, same deal there, right? Uh, doesn't look like there's enough gas in the boat. The Venezuelan minister, who is, uh, part of a corrupt narco-state, and I don't dispute that at all, but I do think he has more credibility than Marco Rubio and Pete Hegseth. And so what he said is the explosion was an artificial intelligence depiction. It's not even a real explosion. And because I'm not an expert on being able to depict the difference between an AI explosion and a real explosion on a satellite image, I don't, I don't discount that as a possibility. He had no congressional authorization. The use of the word terrorist, uh, as the enabling mechanism to kill someone, something, anything, anywhere, for any reason, is, is not a novel, uh, thing. Certainly the Nazis did it. And all of a sudden, um, we're going to call all of these drug cartels terrorists like they're Al Qaeda, which is dishonest, confusing, and misleading. You could make an argument that these drug cartels kill scores more Americans by, by exponents and multiples than Al Qaeda, and they're worse than terrorists. If that's your position, I understand that you have 100,000 fentanyl deaths in the country, million people killed by this poison. I, I have no problem killing these people. Zero. But if we go to war, it's not on the word of Donald Trump, Marco Rubio, and Pete Hegseth. And when the government kills in a military action, you don't talk about it the way a scriptwriter would write it for a cheap episode of network television. And that's what the problem is with the Venezuelan boat. It's the use of force, likely on the basis of a lie by people who never tell the truth. And so the same people who say that, uh, Garcia is this and that without any evidence, are now the same people who have labeled the 11 blown-up people terrorists absent evidence, and I don't trust them, and nobody.
>> Couldn't it be though that I mean, I, I will disagree with you that I don't think we should just be killing folks. I just don't >> I didn't say Keith, I want to be clear. I'm saying I don't, I don't have a problem, right, with the president, Obama, Bush, Trump finding, signing a finding and killing the heads of a cartel. I'm not losing sleep over that, right? I mean, these, these people have killed tens and tens of thousands of of Americans. They're, they're evil. But the way that he's going about it, the way that he is serially dishonest about all of these things, look, he lied about the effects of the military strike in Iran. >> Yep. >> Right. And and that suggests to me that they're lying about this because he lies about everything. And what's most dangerous now is the lies that are being told are no longer about justifying detention. Awful though that may be. Now the lies are justifying killings absent the evidence that's required to justify killing. That's what I'm trying to say.
>> Got it. That makes, that makes sense to me. Um, I think, I guess you, you wrote about this in your Substack and I kind of want to expand on it, but you, you try to imagine where we're going to be a year from now. You know, imagine it's a year ago and it's perhaps, you were, I don't know how you were feeling. I don't know if I was feeling hope or anxiety, but I certainly wasn't feeling how I'm feeling today. I don't think I could have imagined necessarily we'd be here as quickly as we are. Um, so I do think in order to know how to get out of somewhere, you got to kind of know where you're going. So where do you think this is heading in a year, two years, three years?
>> Nowhere. Nowhere good. >> Nowhere good. I mean, I don't think it's up to me or on me to answer the question about what happens if Donald Trump tries to suspend an election, which there's no authority, no mechanism, legal or otherwise, to do. If Abraham Lincoln had lost the election in November of 1864, the country would have been divided. But the idea that there wouldn't be an election in 1864 because the country was at war was anathema. And so I guess my question for any purpose, for any person who posits that Trump may suspend elections. Okay. And then what do you think would happen? Because I know the answer to that question.
>> What do you? Well, what would happen? >> There'd be violence. >> People would be killed. >> I kind, I mean, I hate that I've become conspiratorial, but I think that's kind of what happens when you are >> take up arms. >> You, you're absent any information and facts from the, you know, our government, um, our leaders. We start to fill in the blanks with rumors and, um, speculation. But it feels to me as though we'll see if he puts the military in other cities where he really shouldn't. But it seems to me as though he's doing this as a way for us to get used to the presence of the military so that when it comes to election time or some other big event, they're there, we're used to it, and we're not fighting it.
>> Well, again, I'm going to deploy the National Guard and I'm going to have them mulch the flower beds, which is what they're doing in Washington. >> Yeah. >> Right. Or the National Guard will be there mulching next to your election precinct place. Does not stop an election. Okay? It doesn't, that shouldn't intimidate anyone from voting. But if you listen to Gavin Newsom, and I'm listening to Gavin Newsom, and if you listen to JB Pritzker, and I'm listening to JB Pritzker, they're either crazy or they're right. And I don't think they're crazy. And what two serious people, governors of mega states in this country are saying is, I think, the president of the United States is going to deploy the military in an effort to prevent Americans from having a say on who rules over them.
>> And if that is something they're just saying to whip up the Democratic base, and I don't get the sense that it is, it's deeply irresponsible. If they're saying it because they believe it and think that that could happen, then responsible leadership demands an honest conversation about what comes next in the next moment. We live in the United States. This is a country with 300 million guns, and it's a fiction that only MAGA extremists own the guns. If the government says that government of the people, by the people, for the people is extinguished, the republic has fallen. Your leaders are your leaders. And maybe the next one will be Eric Trump. What does anybody think will happen? And the government has more guns, and they'll kill a lot of people, I suppose. And then more people will fall in line to fight, and more and more and more. What we're talking about here is part of our history. It's part of our national character. And I think there should be a deep appreciation for a country that has a monument to George Washington about what happens when a president named Donald Trump says, "You don't get to vote anymore." Should be no loose talk about this stuff.
And the reality of what's happened over the last 10 years, and you know, you and I have known each other, um, for years now, Keith, and you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a little bit older than you, right? It's, you know, I'm 54, and the single thing that has changed in my lifetime, right, the, the most, the most vivid thing is the, the disconnect that has arisen between the concept of actions and consequences. We're not living in a reality show. This is real life. Militaries on the streets, extraordinary violence and abuse being committed by government employees. And over the 10 years' time, um, from the moment he came down the escalator, I said, take him seriously. >> And he, and he could win. And when we think about actions and consequences, our entire American civilization, our society, all of it is built around the radical concept of we pick our leaders. It was the breach in history that separates the before times and the modern era. This rise of freedom, and Donald Trump attacked the cornerstone of American civilization, and then he was elected president again. >> And that is fair to contemplate all of that. >> And to say, will the country survive that?
>> Well, and, I mean, you're, you're more of a student of history than I am, but history shows that when you elect someone who previously tried to overthrow the government, it usually doesn't turn out great for the democracy. So, thank you for censoring us because I do think that we can get very distracted by the circus that is happening. But there is something very deeply serious happening here too. Like you said, military in the streets, Donald Trump in the Oval Office with Zelensky saying, "Oh, you're not voting during, during your war. Isn't that interesting?" So, certainly, it does feel like something is being set up. And I like that you are also saying that there can, there can and should be a reaction to this assault on our way of life.
>> There's an inevitability to where this all goes. If what happens is what people are saying happens, and an adult society should be able to have that conversation. The president of the United States is faithless to his oath, does not believe in the Constitution, and is assaulting the liberty of Americans. And if he tries to take away a right to vote, there shouldn't be a lack of discussion around what happens. The society burns. It's a very, very, very serious moment in the, in the history of this country.
>> So, you think this is very bad, to put it plainly?
>> Well, I mean, I think it's, what, what I see Donald Trump is becoming more unpopular by the day while simultaneously becoming more powerful by the hour. >> Mhm. And what we're talking about here is ultimately the severing of popularity from power in a system where the power deals with the popularity problem. But right now, the economy is seizing, right? It's, it's in congestive heart failure, right? And it's going to go down. It's going to get much, much worse. And you look at everything that's happening. You look at the trend line on the special elections. This is going to be repudiated electorally. But the abuses, the corruption, the insanity, all of it has the potential to create terrible events. Donald Trump promised peace. I think he will bring us war. >> Donald Trump promised prosperity. I think he will bring poverty and misery. Donald Trump said he would make America great again. I think Donald Trump is going to take away a lot of liberty from people. And we've gotten confused on all these terms, right? You know, democracy, you democracy, democracy, democracy. Um, the South had democracy. It was for slavery, right? The North had democracy. It was for liberty. And what we believe in in America is liberty, right? And freedoms that don't come from Donald Trump. And they come from a higher power. So tonight, you know, Donald Trump sits with the tech oligarchs. Um, you look at the abuses of power, you look at the cowardice in the society, uh, standing up to it. There's a lot, there's a lot to be worried about. Lot to be worried about.
>> Yeah. Well, I am, I am very worried. And my, my thing is I just don't, I don't see the way through. Um, and I don't know if there is a way through without it getting pretty bad. But, uh, I guess the fact that Donald Trump is also, I mean, here's, here's something I do want to actually talk about because I think the clear sign to me that we're in authoritarianism right now is that is all the wishcasting about Trump dying because that's something they have been doing Putin for like 10, 15 years. He's got cancer every other day and they're kind of always, there's always these rumors that he's just going to croak. And that to me is a sign that a majority of Americans either know it consciously or subconsciously that Donald Trump's not just going to go away in three years like every other president in their second term. That this could be a long-term thing. And that to me is the greater rot of what's happening is that people realize it that he's trying to hold on to power and he most likely will not leave without >> I don't, I don't, I don't know that I accept that. Um, or that I'm willing to consider it beyond kind of what we, what we talked about. I mean, I, I recognize that what you just said is true, right? That there are that there are scores of millions of people who believe a president of the United States won't leave. >> Mhm. >> So, but what does that mean? What does that mean then? So, I, I'll say this because you and I have experience with the with the Lincoln Project. I, I'll tell you what depressed me over the summer in a in a second. Beating Trump is. Well, we did it. We did it. I mean, we ran an organization that had a billion dollars of impact. And the fundamental insight of the Lincoln Project in 2020, and not, not what it became after, which is a grift, right? But, but when you and I were there, played a decisive role in beating Donald Trump. And, and after five years, you finally have one Democrat who understands >> who gets it. Yeah. But that's how you fight Donald Trump. >> It feels very us five years ago. Yes. >> And so imitation is the best form of flattery. And every fool Democratic consultant, and there are a lot of them, >> who doesn't understand what he's doing or what we did, right, is part of the reason that Trump is sitting in the White House. But that's how you fight in the American, in the American culture, right? That, that you must mock him. You have to degrade him, and you have to weaken him. >> Mhm. >> Because fundamentally, right, the country perceives the Democratic Party as two things: weak and weird. And weak and weird will never beat strong and corrupt, not in America. And so the Democratic Party has to be a strong party, not for the sake of the Democratic Party, but for the sake of America. And this is what John Kennedy talked about. What's the purpose of a great national party if it doesn't serve a great national purpose? So I know how to beat Trump. I don't worry about that. Here's what I worry about. The most depressing thing that happened this summer to me is, uh, what went on around the Texas Democrats. Um, their 12 days in Illinois. And you look at that and you see Abbott, who I consider to be a fascist, >> Mhm. acting on Trump's orders in a way that destabilizes the whole of society, the whole of the democracy, degrades trust in government. Hey, I'm going to pick up five seats, right? And, and really what he's saying and he's standing for is the proposition is the politicians will pick their voters so we don't have to ever worry about, um, the voters. Democrats rightly said, "My God, we have to stop this," and they left the state. An extraordinary action, uh, a full use of their power to stop an abuse of power. I think, I do think you're right that Gavin Newsom is showing the way to do this. It's about being relentless. It is about mocking him. That is something authoritarians, uh, just can't stand. Is being mocked. And it pierces a hole into their, into their armor because humor has a way of kind of exposing the truth in a way that just telling facts on over and again doesn't, it doesn't work. And so I do think what he's doing should be the blueprint. I don't, I don't think everyone should do it in his way. It's kind of cringe to me when the random Democratic senators are doing like the all-caps stuff. It's like, just, just let him do his thing, you know. But, but that is how you, how you take down an authoritarian, and certainly how you take down someone like Trump.
>> Well, it's, it's, it's also on the part of Newsom, right? It's such an indictment of the media, and I'm not even sure that most of the people in the media appreciate that. That what, what he's doing is, is really a three-pronged attack, right? It, it certainly mocks Trump. It, it, it, it, it brutally indicts the journalists of this of this moment. >> How? >> And on the >> because of the ludicrousness of it, the farcical insanity of it. >> Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes. >> The all-caps and then >> because they act like it's, Yeah. >> You watch, uh, you know, you watch a, you know, you watch a baseball game and you, you watch the, the best pitchers against the best batters, and sometimes you, you'll see a pitcher throw a ball where you have a major league ballplayer, right, can hit a baseball like few people in the world who literally loses their balance and falls over the plate swinging at the pitch. And that's what the Fox News hosts look like when they criticize Gavin Newsom. He's not being serious. Like Dana Perino looks like a fool. >> A fool. >> A fool. And she is a fool, right? Um, but these people look like fools. In, in the most important thing that anybody can do politically regarding people that Americans are scared of is to make them look like fools because no one is scared of a fool. And the number one weapon in Donald Trump's arsenal is fear. It's to create a sense of anxiety, right? When I cross the border back into the country, am I going to be [ __ ] with, right? Am I going to be taken into a back room? And when you look at what happened to the Irish comedian in, in Heathrow, arrested for three jokes on Twitter, I would say that there is a chilling of free speech across all of the democracies and here in America because of the combination of cowardice and greed. You have people who are terrified of saying what they believe in America for fear of retribution. And, and the single most important thing you can do if you're involved in politics in this moment, in the fight, is take away that fear by making people laugh at this guy. Well, I don't know if you watch the content here, but that's what we try to do here. We're never as serious as we are in this interview, but the interviews tend to be more serious because it's a serious time. But we do >> try to be lighthearted about it and to make fun of it where we can because it is very serious, but they also are absurd, and in the absurd >> is humor.
>> Um, well, Steve, thank you so much for, um, for joining. I have, I feel inspired and at the same time overwhelmed by the severity of everything, but I do think a lot of people watching right now, um, are going to feel like they, um, like this is, this is something that they can handle, you know, and I think sometimes we can get hysterical, and it, and it is a time, it is a time that is very serious, but it, it is, it is, we can, we can handle this. So, all, all of the, one, one last thing I want to, I want to say, like, for example, I, I am not alone in this, right? I, I, there are, there are, there are no less than a 100 million people who share this, this position. I will never capitulate to this. I will never get on my knees to an American king, an American dictator, an American autocrat. I will oppose it by all peaceful means. I will oppose it until the end, and I'll give my life for it if necessary. The people who have rolled over, right, the silliness of these first nine months, all, all those people were the low-hanging fruit, right? The people that will never give into this are on a higher branch in that proverbial tree. And Donald Trump's successes have come from the harvest of the low-hanging fruit, right? Uh, Sheryl Redstone, Joe and Ma, right? >> Ma, [Laughter] right? No one should be surprised at the rollover. But as a general proposition, we're not a rollover people. >> No, we're a [ __ ] you people. >> We put it hard, tough, [ __ ] you people. >> Yes. >> And, and Trump hasn't encountered the hard, tough, [ __ ] you side of the opposition yet. >> But he will. >> He will. That is, that, I think I learned that from you. America is instilled with [ __ ] you energy. And he hasn't even really encountered it yet, but he's about to.
>> Yeah, I think >> and I, and, and, and truly, like Marjorie Taylor Greene is a great example of that. >> Yes. Actually, >> right. Yes. Absolutely. Right. I mean, she's, as you know, she's the mayor of, of Crackpot America, you know. Um, you know, they said Rudy was a mayor of America's mayor before he became a crackpot, but she is truly the, she is the mayor of Crackpot America. And even a crackpot can, can look at the abuse of, of children by power and see the immorality of it. And, and because of that, right, yesterday, you know, two people I look at, I laugh, right? Like a Thomas Massie and a, and a, and a, and a Marjorie Taylor Greene. If whack jobs had armies, right, they'd be field marshals. And yet, right, basic elemental concepts of right and wrong, as in it's wrong for the richest people in the world to be raping 14-year-old girls and for the government to be covering it up, that there still is common ground to be had on some issues between people that until yesterday I thought were completely irredeemable whack jobs. Today, I know that they're whack jobs, but they have a redeemable quality. >> Mhm. >> When it comes to pursuing justice for these Epstein victims. >> And it's also a sign that, that to Margie Taylor Greene, there's life after Trump. And she wants to be, she wants to be on the side of the base who also believes that powerful people should be held to account, which is why Donald Trump was originally elected. It's one of the reasons because, uh, he, he kind of, he kind of understood that, though I think they didn't know that he was just >> he, he was elected, right? And this is, this is the most important thing. This is the, this is, this is the single most important thing in the room, right? In the room with the campaign, right? You, when you're sitting around, you know, around the people who are going to be the, the team around the next president. I, I hope to God there's someone in that room who's going to say, "Let's drop the [ __ ] everybody." You know why Donald Trump's sitting in the White House? He sits in the White House because 49.5% of the country, even after his coup, decided in 2024 on the three big issues, the economy and the border and on Biden's health, that the biggest liar in American history was the more honest candidate in the race. And that's the greatest failure by a political party in American history. And it's the reason why there's no elasticity in the Democratic Party's numbers. So the Democratic Party will not regain its popularity fully as an institution until there's a new nominee. But that isn't necessary to roundly defeat Trump in 2026 because there's only one question on the ballot, and it's a very simple one. You can ask it in a very calm way, in a very quiet voice. Do you think it might be a good idea to put a check on his power? Yeah. Yeah, it's a good idea. And because people don't need to be beaten over the head to understand that, you're going to see one of the great electoral wipeouts in, in history. In the Trump presidency will effectively be brought to an end in 2026 in November by Democratic Congress. Then the rubber stamp is gone. And then, then you're going to have a battle between the Article I branch and the Article II branch that's mediated by the Article III branch while his popularity craters to unprecedented levels. And this is where it's important to remember something that Abraham Lincoln said: In America, with popular sentiment, anything is possible. Without it, nothing is possible. And over the next 90 days, there won't be a person in this country who doesn't understand how bad the economy has been wrecked by his insanity. And, and by the time we get to New Year's, right, that'll be perfectly clear. And if you know kids in their 20s, and you do, job market's not good right now. Um, things are falling apart. And, uh, we're all going to see it. We don't have to tolerate it. Uh, we can cancel his reality show. We have >> I think let's end that there. That is hopeful. And we can cancel his reality show. And there will be a huge uprising in 2026 whether he likes it or not. And then, yes, this will effectively be over. And this is as bad as it's going to be. And it'll, there will be some fighting, but he'll never, he'll never has as much power as he does today. Maximum danger we are in from him, in some regards, is between now and next November.
>> Well, um, Steve, thank you so much for joining. I really do hope you come back. It's so good to see you. So glad you're doing well, and I will talk to you soon. >> Good to see you. Take care, Keith.