Transcription
My name is on the slide, and Ordain Women is on the slide. They are listed as enemies to the church. And of course, local leaders are going to be excommunicating people like me and Kate. Anyway, Lindsay, keep going. Sorry about that. You guys are criticizing the data, which, I agree, I'm sure it's not scientifically gathered. But I feel like this is a pretty accurate chart. I mean, I feel like in the issues that I deal with, these are, there's not really any that I see that I'm like, "Oh no, that's not true." Whether we place a moral value on it is a different story. But I think that this is true, especially in this time period. And I think a lot of us, it's easy for us to forget the momentum. These are issues that were, and still are, affecting people. And I think a lot of us, it's easy for us to forget the momentum. You know, in 2014, there was a lot of momentum. 2013, there was a lot of momentum around these specific orange issues. So I think it looks accurate. So you're saying Ordain Women, John Dehlin, Denver Snuffer, Church History issues, LGBT issues, you're saying those are the main issues? I mean, I think they're super reductive and they're dismissive of people's pain, but for a slide when you're trying to explain people's issues, I think, yeah. I think they're, I think they're all symptoms, not issues. To me, they are symptoms of the underlying problems, and that's what I'm going to get to.
Okay, so Jessie, we're going to hit that at the end in about seven, eight minutes. But John Hamer, what's your reaction to the orange, to the orange bubbles? Well, I think your interpretation, you know, that they disagree with current policies as LGBT stuff, 'cause I'm like, "Gay doesn't get one bubble?" Well, Gina got one bubble that was just like "ites," right? Right? I know. I mean, so Gina got a bubble. They say it's just grafted(?), it's not gay, just so we're clear. Gayites, there's one for gayites! ... and Lamanites. But, yeah, uh, you know, in terms of all of these things, like, like you say, are these? I didn't think, well, when you first showed us this slide, you know, we went through and you said, "Hey, would you make us some slides about how you think it would really be?" And so I put in, you know, slides that I think were more causal as opposed to, uhm, you know, that these things that were symptoms or something like that. But, I mean, in some ways, a lot of these things are, are the issues that obviously they're dealing with on all these different sides. But I think that, uhm, some of these things, especially in the middle. We're not doing the blue ones, but the things in the blue are supposedly, guess overlap, and everybody has these problems, you know, with pornography, with going to stores on Sunday, you know, not committing, not being righteous, that kind of thing. So I think that those are them just telling themselves their own, you know, that's what they want to hear, right? That the people who aren't staying loyal, it's because they just have trouble with porn, they just can't commit, or they just want to buy stuff on Sundays or something like that. You know, and so in those kind of ways, I think that those are kind of the old answers. You know, it's called issues and ideas leading people away, and there are three of these that are, I guess four if you count false prophets. You know, there are four of these that are people-focused, individual-focused. It's as if, as if they can identify just one enemy and go after that enemy, that that's somehow going to make everything right. You know, whereas what really is the only one of those things, almost, uhm, that they could actually address is the one over in the far corner that says "Need something more." That's actually, that's actually, you'd think of that instead of it being something to squelch people about, you know, and step on them, you could say, "Hey, maybe we aren't offering anything other than Wonder Bread without the crust every week." You know, maybe we could actually be doing something that would be interesting, that would actually address that kind of need that people have.
Does it bug, okay, so none of you were mentioned on this slide, but I was. Does it bug any of you that they are naming names? That people's, like, imagine thousands of stakes all over the world. They are actually naming people's names as enemies of the church for potential targets, let's just say. Does that bug anybody? I was going to say that. Does it bug you that you're their pornography? Like, people are like sneaking under their sheets at night to listen to John Dehlin. And when their mom opens the door, they're like, "What? What? I'm not listening to anything." Like pornography. Does that bother you? I mean, it's, you know, we have a kind of sometimes scary history. Sometimes when religion is involved, people can do scary things. So, do I like the fact that apostles and Seventies are running around naming me as an enemy? Especially when I feel like what I'm trying to do is save marriages, prevent divorce, prevent LGBT suicides, help people with depression and anxiety. Like, yeah, it's true that the stuff we talk about on Mormon Stories can sometimes be correlated with people leaving the church. But I'm not the one that slept with 14-year-olds. I'm not the one that forged, uh, the Kinderhook plates, or the, pretended I could translate the Abraham papyri when I couldn't. So it's like, it's the stuff I'm getting blamed for. I don't think it's really me. It's just that we're talking about it. And the stuff that I'm trying to do to do good, I don't think makes it so that I should be on everyone's mouths and lips as an enemy of the church. And who knows what safety or practical implications it has for people like me or Denver to be named as enemies of the church all around the world. It's, you're not an enemy to the church, you're an enemy of public affairs. *chuckle* And I'd be willing to vouch that's, that's the case. Uh, that Public Affairs is worried about you, and they've made it, uh, they've made the point to the Seventies as well that they need to be concerned. It's just a pissing competition. The whole thing.
I would, I would just say, you know, I think Lindsay and Jessie and everybody is really onto something. John, I think you're making the mistake of not looking at it from the believing Mormon perspective. I mean, you're right, that at the end of the day, they're like blaming the messenger here. But from the faithful Mormon perspective, that's not the way they see you. They, no matter what you say, what your motivations are, that you're trying to save marriages or, you know, whatever the fill-in-the-blank is. No matter how sincere your statement about that is, your podcasts are seen as tearing down the church. Just like, anecdotally, in 2013, your podcasts had a huge role in me leaving the church. You know, whether that was your intention or not. So I think from the believing Mormon standpoint, I think that, you know, when Lindsay says, you know, they kind of have a point with some of that, that is the point. People are listening to some of your podcasts, and even if it's not your intention to lead them astray, it is opening, it is opening the door to information that they never knew about, and it becomes a springboard. And so that's the way the church is looking at it. That's the way I see it.
Hey John, can I talk about them naming you? I know that this slide was not made for public consumption, so this, I guess this does not count within context. But in the way that they have talked to you, it is no secret that you are, uhm, a problem or a thorn in their side. And I back up what you say about it, that it is dangerous. Some of the worst, ugliest, most violent things that were ever said to me online was when I was involved with Ordain Women. Certainly, the Ordain Women board can attest to that. Death threats and those kind of things. I know, I know I saw some terrible things said to Julie Rowe about it. People take this stuff seriously. I just recorded a podcast on the history of violence and Mormonism, so I take this very seriously. I think that that's a legitimate concern to be named as something like that. I really wish the church would be more introspective and thoughtful about this. I know people, and I know them. I've met some of the people that take this stuff very, very literally and very seriously, so that is a concern. Any, any other people want to jump in on that really quick before we kind of get in some other summarizing thoughts?
Okay. Uhm, alright. So, go, and thank you Lindsay, thanks everyone so far. Uhm, there's a blue bubble in the middle which is pornography, chastity, blue bubbles in the middle. Pornography, chastity, lack of righteousness, lack of commitment and Sabbath. So, so if it's not these evil boogie men on the left or the right that are ruining the church, or boogie women as Ordain Women might be, then it's that the members themselves can't stop having sex, can't stop masturbating, basically can't keep their pants on. Uhm, aren't righteous, aren't, you know, respecting the Sabbath enough, just aren't committed. So this is just the typical, uhm, you know, uh, that they left the church because they weren't committed, didn't believe and wanted to sin. Is it anything more than that? I'm just surprised they don't have Word of Wisdom issues. I guess that's just lack of righteousness. Whatever. Uhm, yeah, no, I think that those are just their excuses. The fact, the, uhm, you know, the fact that of all the different things, there are a bunch of gatekeeping issues, and that there are things that are tough to be LDS or active LDS. The fact that you have to pay all of this money in tithing, the fact that you are avoiding alcohol and coffee and this kind of thing. The border issues are actually, you know, Sabbath and these kind of things. Are actually strengthening, they strengthen the border, right? So that actually keeps people in. So even though people like, like to list that as, "Oh, they were just so weak, they had to do those things." It's in fact, those border issues for an organization as actually strengthening. I agree with John Hamer completely. This one actually makes me sad because I think in my experience, the biggest supporters to the church that strengthen and are most loyal to the church are the people that have these issues. Uhm, we call them Jack Mormons or whatever they are, people that struggle or drink, have Word of Wisdom problems or pornography problems. And yet, and maybe they stop attending church or fall away from participation, but they never stop believing. They carry this like calcified shame over their shoulders of like, "The church is true, I know it's right, I just know I don't fit. Someday I will. I'm going to make it work someday." But they have to put, I mean, I was just going to say, they have to put them in the bubbles on the slide to make that shame effect work. But it doesn't! I just also want to add that it's not just Jack Mormons. I think that most Mormon men and probably a huge chunk of Mormon women are struggling with pornography. In part because the church, as Jessie helped us to understand, the church actually exacerbates the pornography problem.
I'm sure there's a good chunk, you know, two-thirds of Mormons are inactive, so there are a ton of inactive Mormons that aren't super committed or enjoy football or boating on the Sabbath. Chastity, I'm sure that... What about how they're putting pornography up with John Dehlin, Ordain Women up with like breaking the Sabbath? These rhetorical uses they are doing here are very effective, and they are used for a reason, and it's coded to all of us, and we get the message that all of these things are dangerous, right? All of these things are dangerous. And that's the part that makes me upset about it. And again, the slide wasn't made for public consumption, but it was made to, given to leaders who are supposed to be spiritual guides to help members. And this is how we're framing issues as dangerous? Like? That goes back to my radio show, we can talk about more in a second. But in that these are all symptoms, I mentioned and I've written about that my obsession, my personal obsession with pornography ended when I stopped, when I left the church. And, uh, these are all symptoms of underlying problems that I wish they'd focus on. Something to keep in mind with this is it's called "Issues and Ideas," and wording matters in these types of presentations. My guess is that this presentation wasn't even made by the Quorum of the Seventy or the Twelve. It was probably made by a church employee, as we discussed. Uhm, and, uh, likely was passed on to a member of the Seventy who then passed it on to the Twelve, and I doubt much got changed other than a little of feedback here and there, back and forth. So I do think we have to take some of these with a grain of salt. But they do sound like, it just tells me the church is focusing too much on symptoms and not looking for the underlying problem.
Okay, really quick, because we're almost out of time, uhm, I'm going to ask you to prepare a closing statement. But before I do, John Hamer, if it's okay, I'm going to bring up the one slide that you put together, and I'm going to have you just sort of read off what you put in your bubbles. So here is, it's on the screen. Can you read us your bubbles? You're muted, John, you're going to have to un-mute yourself. Sorry, yeah. So, so I, uh, took the same thing to understand, like, this is even the far left, far right issues people are having on the different sides, and then things in the right bubble, all of the people who don't live in the United States. So for the red bubble, I wrote, "Church totally USA focused." *chuckles* Gina loves that. Okay, that's the Gina bubble. And then I wrote for people, that kind of, that affects people on the left and the right. In the blue bubble, I wrote: "Church lies about history," and that's, I think, inarguable. "Church acts like a corporation." I'm sorry, correlation makes church so horribly bland. I think that that affects people on the right and on the left. "Church work is busywork." So everything the church calls you to do feels so hollow, meaningless, and pointless. "Poor apologetics backfire." And I think that affects both left and right. So people are trying to toe the church line with apologetics in the right and the left, and they both don't do it very well. And so then on the left, I wrote, you know, things that are big issues that people have problems with. With those, being born lesbian or gay, because I thought I did not make a circle, but I guess it did. Uh, Temple stuff, so freaky. Joseph Smith's polygamy, which does seem like a central issue that always affects people. Uh, Book of Mormon not ancient, and really, the big one, believing that women are actually people. And I think that is obviously affecting people on the left an awful lot. On the right, uhm, what I wrote, uh, was, and I can't see it entirely in terms of this covering up, anyway, "Current teachings contradict scripture." And so that's what I think, uh, what's his face, the institute teacher, he's going through the Old Testament and showing all of these things where current teachings don't go with scripture. "There's no new revelation in scripture." "The church lacks gifts the Spirit describes in its history and scripture." Denver Snuffer is constantly saying, you know, "Why aren't we feeling all of these gifts of the Spirit? You can do that, you can see Christ," you know, those kind of things. Uhm, and then, uh, "Church teaching is lacking divine authority." The leaders do, but the prophet never speaks prophetically. And finally, uh, "19th-century teachings have just been silently eliminated." And so, uhm, if you like, I was saying, if you read the Journal of Discourses and are a right-wing thinker, you will immediately notice that every single thing about the current teachings of the church is contradicted by things Brigham Young said over the pulpit. And in fact, Brigham Young or John Taylor frequently say, "If the church ever did this or that, it would be in apostasy." And so that's why if you start doing that, if you start having a Wednesday night scripture reading group with your right-wing friends in Mormonism, you're about a year away from being in your own church. You're about, you know, a year and a half away from having your wife being married to your friend, and then everybody being, you know, and you're just being one of the followers in this new fundamentalist church.
Alright, John, I want to count this as your goodbye statement. Do you have any other just quick closing thought to add to that? The only other thing I was thinking is that for the whole rest of this slideshow, these are all the issues, and we focused in on this money shot slide that you were talking about, but one of the ideas of it is that our answer to this, the whole point of this slideshow, yeah, we have all of these problems, but the answer is we are going to have these rescues. You know, rescue weekends. We're going to have the boys' rescue, the Sweden rescue. And I think that again, this is just showing that when you're doing this internal preaching to the choir, you think that these rescues are actually going to do anything. If you address any of these problems, it's a problem by being surrounded by yes-men. It just isn't, I don't think it's a solution that has any legs. Beautiful. Thank you, John Hamer. Gina, you go. Well, I think if you look at this graphic, you could just about swap out just about any of these bubbles with a major issue the church is having. And this is what bothers me. Instead of problemitizing the organization and the church itself, it is problemitizing everything outside of it. So you can change Ordain Women into patriarchy, John Dehlin into social media, secularism into just a lack of spiritual depth. You can talk about disagree with current policies, well, actually, we've got dumb policies. Incredulity over church history? Well, they tried to turn church history into mythology, and it didn't work, so they needed an outlet to get that back. Chastity and pornography? Excessive purity discourse. This sort of lack of commitment, lack of righteousness? It is emphasis on a very pressurized, muscular fiction, and it's exhausting. There's this, we missed one thing in there, boredom. It's boredom to hear the same thing year after year after year, right? John Dehlin: That's "Need something more," isn't it? "Need something more" is saying, "Oh, you actually want to enjoy church?" That's ridiculous. Yeah, ridiculous. You should just endure church and then count your many blessings. Uhm, you know, you've got mixed family systems, lack of diversity, you've lost Jesus somewhere in the call. I don't know where Jesus got to. Maybe lost on the sixth floor? Who knows. False prophets, well, yeah. How about that? How about that that we do have some false prophets? You know, too many of them. What about a lack of robust theology? What about the fact that the church has actually lost its way? And those two bubbles on the right-hand side which say "Church has lost its way" or "It is deficient and need something more." I like that it says in quotes, "How about that?" And I'm not sure if that's a rhetorical thing or maybe they're taking that seriously. I would hope that they are. So, I'm, uh, you know, flipping all around, church people flipping all around. Start pointing some fingers in the right direction. That the crazy notion, maybe, that you have gotten these, these wrong, and that you, as an organization, are failing the people. Beautiful. Amen, Gina. Alright, Jessie, you close and tell us if Jesus is on the sixth floor. *chuckles* I can confirm that Jesus is not on the sixth floor. Maybe in pictures, but in a lot of prayers, but that's about it. And that's one thing I was going to point out, and I mentioned the title. It says "Issues and Ideas Leading people away from the gospel." I don't see Jesus anywhere on this slide, and that's an issue in and of itself. That, uh, that, uh, there is not a focus, even on the slide, of Jesus. I've, I've mentioned, and I don't know if you want to show, show my alternative slide, but I'll show it somewhere if you don't here, John. But I did my own alternative where I put "symptom" on just about every bubble except for the two on the right of the church's loss, its incredulity, and false prophets. And I don't mean that in a way that the right might be doing it. I mean it as Gina said, that they could genuinely be an issue. And I hope we're questioning that and in trying to decide how we lost our way, and has the needle moved away from that, Christ, Jesus, and I argue even beyond that to God. Uh, and where is the church at the moment? I had one other alternative bubble that I listed that summarized what I think the underlying single problem of people leaving the church at the moment is. And that is that it eventually, I think for every single person that leaves the church and actually stops going, leaves the church, removes their records, or even that just stops going, is that eventually at some point, it becomes easier for them to leave than it does to stay. The alternate name I gave that was, was, uh, the "Don't let the door hit you on the way out" philosophy. Uhm, almost every person that I know that has personally left, and I'm not going off of any statistics either, has eventually hit that in their life. They may have been willing to accept the faults of the prophets, they may have been willing to accept issues here and there, but when it became easier for them to leave than to stay, that's when they left. Either they were excommunicated or they chose to leave at some point. And I think that's what it's going to come down to. I want to see stats though, I want the church to study this. And come down to what the conclusions are. They will, it's just a matter of when.
Alright, Ryan. And then Ryan, Ryan must leak the study. *chuckles* Yeah, that's right, Ryan will leak the study. Ryan, give us a quick summary, we're out of time. Yeah, okay, I think everyone here has done a great job putting their flavor on the slides. I have probably done a little bit more of my personal opinion than I like to when representing Mormon Leaks. I just want to say that I'm extremely proud of our team at Mormon Leaks and the hard work we've put in for the past two months to be able to have discussions like this. And I am grateful for the people, the many sources that we have, like the person who was willing to share that with us so we can have discussions, because they are important to have, no matter what side you land on. I'm sure there will be active Mormons who will have no problem with the slideshow and are going to agree with all of the bubbles, and that is fine. We just want the conversation to be had. Beautiful. And thank you for having us on this podcast, John. Thanks, Ryan. Alright, Lindsay, you have the last word. Lindsay's gone. No, she's not. Un-mute yourself, Lindsay. Uhm, you know, last week I sat across the dinner table from a man and his daughter. And the daughter showed me on her inner thigh she had carved the word "wrong" into her skin. When she was worried about her worth in the church and feeling guilt. John and Gina and I and people like us hear these stories every single week. Every single week people come to us. And I'm sitting here hearing this conversation and I think, I'm just sad thinking about that now because I think, "Wow, the problems that the people in the church are dealing with are not church history." Church history is painful when you find out about it, but those aren't the issues you need help with. We came to the church, we came to God needing help, and to me, it's not that hard. It's like, brethren, if you want to help, just infuse more love, more grace, and more empathy into the bureaucracy you've created. To me, I feel bad for them. I feel bad for us, and I feel it's so misguided, so hollow and empty. They have such a good position to help people that need them, and people need them, and they trust them. And to me, I feel like they are not being good stewards of that trust, and so it just makes me feel sad. Gina: Yeah, here, here. Alright, well, I love each and every one of you. I think it's been a fantastic conversation. I'll thank each of you. Ryan McKnight, keep going with Mormon Leaks, thank you. Gina Colvin, you're brilliant, please keep up A Thoughtful Faith and Kiwi Mormon and all the great things you're doing. Lindsay Hansen Park, Sunstone is a treasure. You've brought it back from a not-so-healthy place, and it's thriving, and it's because you're amazing and all the people that help you. So keep it up. Support Sunstone. John Hamer, Church of Christ, you're my hero, as are you. So please keep up the great work you're doing. Please come to Sunstone Toronto in May, I think it is. Uhm, uhh, April, April it is. I'm so sorry. Sunstone, Sunstone in Toronto in April? Please come. And, uhm, Jessie Stay, thank you so much. It's always good to have you. You guys were awesome. Uh, please comment on mormonstories.org, email us at mormonstories@gmail.com. Thanks everyone that supports the Open Stories Foundation and makes this possible. We love you guys. Uhm, more soon! So take care, and again, thanks panelists for joining us. You guys are amazing. Thanks, John! Alright, see you later, take care, guys. See you later. Alright.