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It seems like you're working towards a metaverse of your own, which in one sense you could say all artists are or should be doing. But in your case, you're you're involved with making your thoughts and observations literal or giving them a sense of image, a sense of shape. You're not conducting a theater in in the in in the oceans of abundance paintings and images. You're not creating a theater, but you have created a stage. a stage where everything from dream projection, see dream projection to cinematic fantasy like Star Wars can take place without any sort of visual dissonance. or I should say contextual dissonance because you want visual dissonance. You want there to be a a kick to the image. And the kick comes in the surprise that happens between those images that are just blue and white and those images that contain red and yellow. that th those images with those colors in them, are they turning from oceans to fields of flowers? Perhaps that's one dream. But what you're saying is that that may be the metaphor, but it's the dream that counts. that you're not preventing people from taking what you do lit reading what you do literally but you're saying to them there's more than what you see. What's that Zen slogan? Things are not as they seem. things are as things are not as they seem nor are they otherwise >> right >> but there's an easier way to say it things are also as they seem >> and in that case I think that you're at that point where you're trying to bring together the the the visually seen and the metaphorically seen the visual understanding and the metaphoric understanding and the fantasy, the sense of the fantastic that abides all the way around. I think it's too easy to call it surrealism. Surrealism as a as a as a visual language or conceptual language is universal now. >> We don't have to be convinced of it. But what do we do with it? Artists no longer have to show us what surrealism is. They have to show us what to do with it. >> Mhm. And I think you're doing that consciously. So you you're not indulging, you're not indulging yourself, nor should you, nor can you. You have to speak to the audience. Indulge them a little. That slight indulgence allows them in and they ultimately complete the work of art. Like Duchon said, but you started the work of art. You're first audience, >> right? >> Don't try to put everything in. Try to make sense of what's in there. Yeah, that's so true.
Is there any influence uh of religion or spirituality in your work? Specific religious beliefs or spiritual sensations. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I was born in a fairly religious household and it was uh predominantly a Hindu household. So I tell people this. I like well listen I grew up in a household where I uh women had you know goddesses had eight arms, avatars were blue and we worshiped a monkey god. So when it comes to visual identity I don't really have much on the you know there's not a everything's up for grabs kind of we've conceived. But for my own sense uh I had I've developed a a pretty natural yoga practice. So I do believe in this one. My central thesis I would say is I paint to I paint to explore the power of hands. the shadows of the ego and the beauty of the mind in order to reveal a universal soul. And for me that allows this idea of the hands while they may not be now as evident figuratively as representational they do represent that action and karma like that which we can bring to the work. The shadows of the ego has always fascinated me. It used to be destruction of the ego, but I've realized in life that you need ego and and your you need it to fuel and to ego is really important because it helps you >> bring attention to to things where you you want to emanate more light and there's something that's saying holding you back, >> right? >> So, I never thought of that as as a to as a real tool. And then I think the beauty of the mind I I'm just grateful that I get to express what's you know somewhat in my mind.
>> How much of it is do you think is expression? How much of it is uh investigation? >> I would say a large portion is investigation. I I often say this is that at least since for many well I would put it this way up until 2020 2013 I had a I had an kind of an out-of- body religious experience I I had a l Vishnu a dream where I witnessed the birth of Lord Vishnu and that um was probably the most egoless moment of my life and then I didn't sleep for about 60 hours trying to explain it to people and ended up in a psychiatric ward. I was diagnosed with bipolar. I've been managing that for 12 13 years. So I would say all the art from when I was young up until that moment was about expression and I and I can look at those work and they I value them differently because I was trying to express something hidden in me and I just wanted to be known. I honestly just wanted to be known by the world or have someone see me and see a portion of me that I couldn't express verbally. After that moment, I actually felt like I owed it to the I was trying to I wouldn't say teach, I wouldn't say uh invoke, but there was a more conscious effort with the audience. Like I was physically creating a work to invoke some sort of relationship with an audience. like I I no longer needed my ego satisfied in a way that I needed like I was like a child or like something petulant where you kind of needed to be quelled or or attentive to. It's like I can take an ownership of that or take some stance. So I I used that distinct midpoint in my or not even midpoint just life of like there was a view of expression and then there was a view of investigation and and what I can bring and share.
>> That's remarkable to have that kind of inflection point in in your life and your career. I mean, I think it was probably they always say there's like the day there's like your you have two important days as a person. It's like the day you were born and then the day you find out why. And and I I now can I can now articulate that my purpose, my rais, the reason I'm on this earth is to uplift truth through art and help people. And how effective do you find you think yourself at uh at at doing those things at this point? right now you kind I I look at it like sphere of influence. So you know I'm stepping out of kind of hopefully emerging to the ne I want to get to that next level in terms of just the art scene as well as just a larger audience. But I think anybody who's got who's known me who's had an interaction with me says this kid is creative. This kid has a point of view and he he does what he's wants. He he expresses and he creates art and that may be inspiring on a micro basis right now or smaller interactions right now >> much like a teacher in a classroom like it's you have your thing but I envision a larger platform building. >> Yeah. It's not easy to be an artist with a me with a message but it doesn't sound like you could be anything else. or one can argue without the message it's hard to be an artist. Um, well, if you if you define message liberally, >> some artists would say that exploration of color values all by itself is a message or doing so is a message. paying homage to the square like Alers did for the rest of his life was a message. So yes, in that case in that in that context art all art has a message and artists are we can judge artists as good or not so good by the effectiveness with which they communicate that message. But how and the question is how do how does the artist get to that message? How does he or she formulate it, understand its content and formulate its presentation, its form. But then it becomes again a dialogue between the artist and the audience and the art the triangulation artist audience and the artwork. But um clarity of imagery is finally what the the technical thing to keep in mind. It's even in the in the dream you had of Vishnu the clarity of image. The saying is God is in the details. >> Well, they sure are. >> Yeah. >> And you have many gods, so you can assign each one a detail. or they're probably already assigned that. >> I've definitely prayed to all of them for help and I've got them working overtime. I think if I get to the next when I transition over I think if they'd be like, "Listen, you were a lot of work down there. >> Are we done yet? >> Really? You want to go to the next one? You want to go to the You want to go to the next universe? God, we don't have enough enough PR team for you. >> Right. Exactly. Those last 10 years were kind of hairy. I would We're going to have to recycle you as a >> actually.
So this this is speaking of like past or at least this is that in that week leading up to that dream with Lord Vishnu. Um my when my mom was pregnant with me, she she had a dream that my grandfather visited her. He had died in 1960. I was born in 1981. And my grandmother thought that that's a a sign that I'm that I'm my grandfather's reincarnation. And then leave I had was leaving my corporate job at the time and I was going to work on that strip of life art full-time. I was going to see if I can get that off the ground and he had he was in Germany at the time and or like in his in the 30s he was working on a on an engineering project and trying and brought that back to India and he was set up his own factory. So I started channeling that energy and he used to was attracted to this angel number 555 and he used to s drink uh smoke a 555 cigar and that week I just got more and more interested in his story and I was like I just felt a very strong connection. I was like finally I feel like somebody in the family I can relate to who's like adventurous and like you know taking like risks and like making their own business or taking something off the ground. And then I kind of asked and I was like, am I his reincarnation? And that was where the dream happened.
>> So you were already focused on thoughts of your of your grandfather. There was a there was a a familial context to the dream. >> Yeah. There was like living somebody. It was like it was like a parallel. You're like living someone. You're reliving something in a deja v. >> That was the first time I'd ever felt that. So now it becomes an interesting thing when I if you ever like have awakening like that and now it's like I was like okay well this makes sense this is why I was chosen to come to this particular family and this particular set of parents and I was like is my was my grandma so like when my grandmother was alive it was like are you my wife from another life and I'm like was were you my son in this past life and I'm your son in this life and like this is why we have such a complicated relationship So human relationships are >> well do reincarnations tend to stay that clo that close into individual families. >> Yeah, they do. >> I wonder about that. >> They do. I I mean what I've been from what I've been read about I had to I wrote a book on when I was right out of college. I got a I got a book deal and one of the subjects was like this yoga reincarnation love story. And it tends to be that the all those what they call some scars like your your desires every time we have an interaction you have like some scar some infantismally small desire or attachment impression is what it's translates to and that trans that carries on with you on your soul's journey from lifetime. Yeah, that that that's attachment. >> Yeah, that what they call that. Some scars are the impression and then your some scars form inclinations. Like I don't know if you've ever felt like I mean you've obviously been in the art world for so long and your eye has been trained so deeply but if there's ever been a certain type of art or a certain particular color or particular something that you gravitate towards without really understanding why sometimes it could come from that some scar impression that you have and that leads to tendencies. Tendencies lead to habits. Habits lead to character. character leads to then persona and then persona then leads on to your actions and then you're you carry that forward into into a new avatar. >> Yeah.