Is Faith Alone True? Protestant vs Oriental Orthodox

Explicitly Paul thought you need works in order for your faith to be genuine. Not just that, but love. Here it says he's not saved by works because he's talking about baptism in Titus chapter 3. And baptism is >> not talking about doesn't mention baptism one little bit here. He's saying he saved us not because of works done by us in righteousness. Cuz when you say you are 100% sure you're going to heaven. >> I don't have assurities. >> Hello Agent. Is that how you pronounce your name? >> Aen. Anthony. Whatever you like. >> Anthony. Okay, cool. Are you you say apostolic orthodox? Is that oriental Orthodox? >> Yeah, I'm oriental Orthodox. >> Okay, fair enough. Yeah, good to have you here. Um, so you would have seen my Eastern Orthodox ski I did recently. >> Yeah, I I just saw that and uh yeah, it it was interesting to say the least. >> Okay. Yeah, because obviously Oriental Orthodox is a little bit different to Eastern Orthodox because you don't hold to the seven all seven ecumenical councils and stuff like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um but but also very similar with eastern Orthodox in a sense of view of salvation. Would you say like from your perspective salvation's faith and works? >> Yeah. It's what I that's why I'm here. I wanted to to ask you about faith alone. Uh I'm not here to to be pmical per se or you know go for a gotcha. I generally want to have a cordial conversation on that if you're willing. >> Sure. >> Yeah. Sounds good man. >> So I want to just start with what people commonly start with. Um, I've heard you say before like there's no really explicit faith alone verse uh just like there's no verse for the Trinity. Um, so I was just curious how you interpret James 2:24 because you do have faith alone uh in that passage explicitly laid out. So how would you interpret it? It basically says uh you're not justified by faith alone but by works. How would you interpret that passage?

>> Yeah, because when I say faith alone, let me define what I mean by that. uh faith alone means simply trusting what Jesus done to save me apart from trusting in my works to save me. That's what I mean. So therefore, I don't need a verse that says the phrase faith alone. I just need something that says it's by faith and not works and therefore that shows faith alone. >> Right? >> So what's your interpretation of of James 2:24?

>> Yeah, James 2:24. Let's bring it up for people so we can read it. So James 2:24 says, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." And so I would see looking at the context here of James is saying, he is describing how we get justified in the eyes of people around us. >> I think the key verse to understand about this is verse 18 in the context. He it says, "But someone will say, you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works and I will show you my faith by my works. So how we get to show to other people that we truly have faith is not just by having faith because they can't look inside our heart to see if we do but they can look at our works and that can then be an indicator that we have faith. >> So so you take James 2:24 it' be um James here is talking about Abraham justifying himself before men showing the e the external manifestation of his real and true faith. Yeah, I think that's a a good a good example. And it wasn't even just then like he he was obeying God with getting circumcised in Genesis 17. Like clearly this is not him getting right before God in Genesis uh 22 because he was already right before God back in Genesis 15.

>> Okay, I understand. I have a a question on that specifically that interpreting this to be justification before men. If you can put in another passage, Luke 16:15, and I'll I want to show you how I interpret this passage. >> Uh it it says >> it says, >> go ahead. >> You want to read it out? >> It basically says, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God." So if you take James 2:24 to be justification before men, it seems here there's a principle Christ is laying out. Justification before men is an abomination. So how would you deal with that? Because I take James 2 to be justification period.

>> Okay. So this is he's rebuking here the Pharisees who are lovers of money and didn't like the teaching Jesus was giving about can't serve two masters. That's the context here. Verse 13. You cannot serve God and money. And so when it says you're justifying yourselves before men, he's rebuking them for the fact that they didn't care so much what God says. They cared more so what people say. That's why they always tried to take the best seats in the synagogues. They wore the long robes to try and show themsel how fancy they are amongst people, but inwardly they're full of dead man's bones as Jesus says in Matthew 23. And so it's not bad to do works so that it's not bad people find out that you're doing works. Jesus and Paul Peter talks about it but also Jesus talks about he says let your light shine before others so that when they see your good deeds they may glorify God on the day of visitation. So that is a way of people seeing our faith. But that's not a bad thing. That's actually a good thing. But what the Pharisees are doing they couldn't care less about what God's thinking. They're more caring about what people think about them. And that's problematic. I just think true faith we care about what God thinks but because of that just naturally a change of behavior is going to flow out and people are going to recognize that.

>> Yeah. I'm mainly interested with that latter part. It it seems to be a general principle Christ lays out. What is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God in the context of justification before men. And obviously we'd all agree in James 2, Abraham isn't doing an abomination. And on top of that, you mentioned Genesis 17. Uh James makes another point in James 2. He he mentions how it says >> so just just before you go back to James 2. So because you you said this phrase here, what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God, right? Yeah. >> So things that ungodly, wicked men exalt, which is often like just Yeah. sinful practices, that's an abomination to God. But things that are godly like Abraham obeying God to sacrifice his own son, that's not an abomination in the sight of God because that came from God. So it matters. Does the command come from God or does the command come from men? The Pharisees, they just cared about what men said when they should have cared what God said.

>> So here's where I'm going with this. No one was there when Abraham sacrificed his son. Nobody was there. He was by himself. And on top of this, if you read James 2, this was where I was going. He mentions the verse Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness. That's mentioned in chapter 15. I believe it could have been mentioned in Genesis 12 where Abraham first started believing on the Lord. But instead his justification here now when it says his faith was made righteous. Now his faith and his works are being paired where no one is there. He's not attempting to justify himself before men because he himself says he's going alone with his son. So I see in Luke this is a universal principle. He doesn't say you know wretched men try to justify themselves wretchedly. He makes it clear that there's there's a universal rule before men. If you try to justify yourself before men, what men consider to be justification is an abomination. So there's no one with there with Abraham. And then it lays out the verse. Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

>> Yeah. So I think there's a couple things you said there. First thing was about no one was there when Abraham sacrificed his son. Well, I don't think it was just for the people that were there. Like first you do have Isaac there and Isaac seeing amazing demonstration of faith. So that's already someone else who's there besides Abraham. Um but it's not just Ab uh it's not just Isaac seeing this. We see it's recorded in sacred scripture. And so for the potentially millions if not billions of people who have now read this story of Abraham and what he did Abraham has is justified in our eyes vindicated in our eyes as being that is a man of God. We see Jesus talking about Abraham. We see uh Hebrews talking about Abraham. So he's his actions vindicated that he really did have true faith. But when was he counted as righteous? Paul, you quoted James 2:23. It says, "Abraham believed God and was counted to him as righteousness and he was called a friend of God." So, this is quoting from Genesis 15:6 when God gave him a promise of offspring as many as the stars of the sky. And he believed at that very moment. And that's the the time he's counted as righteous. He wasn't counted as righteous 30 to 40 years later when he was willing to sacrifice his own son, Isaac. And the reason why he's counted as righteous, Paul tells us in Romans 4:21, it says talking about Abraham here, he was fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was counted to him as righteousness. So it's not because he's obedient doing works. It's just because he believed God would fulfill his promise. That's why he's counted as righteous.

>> So you you wouldn't be saying his work did anything for his faith? It didn't make him be counted as righteous before God. Sure, our works can sanctify us. Sanctify us maybe, but not in terms of I'm now in a right standing before God when before I wasn't.

>> So, I'm not saying um I'm not making the point like his work would have now saved him. I'm talking about the relationship between the work and the faith itself. Would the work of Abraham here, the work of Abraham here, would it have done anything to his own faith? Not in a sense that he didn't have faith before. He's he had faith. But I think the works that we do do benefit us in terms of our sanctification. >> What about God >> specifically? >> Depends what you mean. Depends what you mean by faith. So it's not because he was already fully convinced prior to Genesis 22. So it's not like he's now fully fully convinced. >> You hear what I said? Why was it here said in chapter 15 and not in chapter 12? >> Because God saw fit to justify him on the basis of believing the promise of Genesis 15, not based on believing the promise of Genesis 12. >> Okay, I understand. >> Cuz they're two different promises. >> His work itself did nothing for the faith. Cuz here's where I'm going with this. Uh I'm sure you would know verse 22 of James 2. I think it shows that it's not the work here isn't an external manifestation. It's doing something innately for his faith. It says exactly completes it. Just like the body and the soul, they need each other for the body to be living.

>> Yeah. Completes it in the sense of brought it to its intended aim. End. Faith is not an end in itself. It's a means. It's a means of justification. But it's not just a means of justification. It's also produces good works as a result. And so therefore, Abraham's faith was completed, brought it to its intended end by the fact that this is what a man of God does who believes the Lord, even if he's told to go and sacrifice his only son, that's what a man of God does. He goes and sacrifice own son or he's willing to at least because God commands it. That's all it's demonstrating there. And he's contrasting people who say they have faith, but they don't have works. That's what James 2:14 says. Um, you will say that you have faith. Well, that faith can't save you if it doesn't produce works because true faith always does result in works. So, we're both on favor of doing good works. We should be obedient to God. I just don't think that the good works play a part in God accepting me into heaven. I'm accepted only because of what Christ did on the cross for me, received by faith.

>> I want to make sure I heard you right. Uh, you cannot be saved without good works. When you cited verse 14, if a man says he has faith but does not have works, can his faith save him? Do you think his faith can save him if it's lacking good works? >> What I'm saying is that if a man says, cuz the key word in that passage is in that verse is says, James 2:14, I'll bring it up. >> Uh what good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works, can that faith save him? So where it's simply a profession of having faith but actually not really possessing true faith because it doesn't produce works. That kind of empty profession cannot save a person. Now if somebody gets saved today, they hear the gospel, they believe that Christ paid for their sin and they die like 10 2 seconds later, they've done zero good works, they would go to heaven without any good works. Um but if somebody doesn't die straight away and they have like 50 more years, of course they'll be producing good works in that time. It's just that the good works are not playing a part in God accepting them into heaven.

>> So you make an emphasis on the says here. Uh would you make an emphasis on uh such faith? I know some translations say that faith or such faith or this kind of faith. Uh so is he professing a true faith you would say or is there a different quality of faith here? What do you what do you take that to mean? >> I'm not sure what he's prof like he is professing to be a Christian. He's professing to have faith, but the fact that it doesn't result in works, that kind of faith can't save him, which is evidencing it's not a genuine faith because not all kinds of faith save you. >> Like, you could believe God exists and God made the universe. But that fa that's a faith, but it's not going to save you. >> You need more than just believing that God made the universe. You need to have your trust in Christ alone to save. >> So, they're claiming they have a true faith. Uh there's no works to back it up. And therefore, it was never a true faith. And that's why you would say the works aren't needed for his salvation. It's really the works manifest whether or not he had a true faith. This is where actually >> I take it back to verse 22. Uh you see where it says that faith in your translation here. >> There's an article there in the Greek uh the eestos epestos. I don't know how to pronounce it properly. >> But the same article is there in verse 22. >> It would literally say if we're going to follow that faith, it would say that faith was completed when it's joined with works. >> Yeah. >> Yes. You see that faith was active along with his works and faith was completed by his works. >> Right? So >> that that's consistent with my position. It's not saying that the works gets us into heaven. It's just that works is a way of completing your faith because faith's intended end is works. God wants us to do works.

>> But the point I'm trying to make because of the article here, it doesn't seem like there's a quality like when he a man says he has faith but does not have works. And then there's the same article here. You say, you see that faith was active along with his works and was completed by it. So I'm seeing here there's not just a relationship. Let me steal man what you're saying. So you're saying like um for for everyone listening. You're saying the works themselves don't supply the faith per se. They manifest whether or not it was a real faith. And it's the the genu the genuity of the faith which is what saves you. The point I'm trying to make according to James, I see it as the works are what satisfy the genuity of the faith because of the analogy he gives two verses earlier. Just like the soul and body, the body is dead without the soul. And likewise, a faith without works is inherently dead. It's it's the mark of whether it's a genuine or not genuine faith and not some invisible aspect uh that's not listed out by James. I think that's ad hoc. It's adding something into the text that isn't there.

>> So, let me just clarify with the that faith here. I think that's talking about different this is now talking about Abraham's faith when verse 14 was talking about the man who says he has faith and so that that is actually talking about two different kinds of faith but Abraham's faith was one that justified him because we see he believed God and was counted him as righteousness and therefore 40 years later he was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac but the man who says he has faith but say 40 years later he's still done exactly good work zero good works to me that's not someone who I would say has faith. It's I like giving an analogy of a lemon tree. A lemon tree we had in our backyard. It initially didn't produce any lemons for about almost 2 years and then eventually it did. It was still a lemon tree before producing the first lemons. But because it was a real lemon tree, therefore it did produce lemons as time went on. And even if let's say hypothetically someone cut it down like uh 30 days in, it was still a real lemon tree for those 30 days. they just didn't have time to produce the works. And so I think if someone dies instantly after conversion, they got zero time to do good works. They're still a true Christian and going to heaven like the thief on the cross and other people like that. Um but if they are given time, works will be a result. Bible reading, praying, serving one another, loving neighbor as oursel.

>> I I like that that lemon tree analogy. Um, let's say it didn't have fruits. Uh, would the fruits make the the tree alive? >> No. So it evidences that the tree is alive. >> So how would you take James 2 to say just like the soul makes the body alive so to without works the faith would be dead. >> Yeah. It's that if somebody I think this is not presuming someone's just right at conversion. I assume we both agree you you can be like a thief on the cross and go to heaven without works. But let's say this is somebody who's in the church for a long time and just nothing, no works are being produced. We can I think rightly conclude that guy's probably not a Christian. >> Yeah. But I have no attach to the vine. >> So we both agree on that point. It's just for us the order is different. I think the work accomplishes completes the faith, makes it alive. Like the the soul is the form for the body. It makes the body alive. You're saying the works are some external manifestation and it's some third party, some third quality, whatever it may be, that makes the faith genuine and then works is what reveals whether it had this extra quality. I don't see that in James. And I can give you one verse why I think >> because I think we have to because I think the way that I interpret James fits really well with how Paul explains similar concept. Say if we go to Romans 4:5 for example, he says, "And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." So James, I mean, Paul here doesn't think that working and believing gets a person justified. He's saying you don't work, you believe. That's the man who's justified. Even verse six, he goes on to say, "Just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works." So not because he's doing works, the works are making him alive. No, he's apart from his works, he's counted as righteous. I I would say uh I think Paul agrees with me and the reason why there was no chapter divisions in the Bible until the 13th century. If you just read the last paragraph of Romans 3, this is immediately would go into Romans 4. It's talking about works of the law. I think explicitly Paul thought you need works in order for your faith to be genuine. Not just that, but love. And I can give you a verse for that.

>> No, he's not talking about works of the law here because one, he doesn't say it. >> I agree there's no chapter divisions. There's no chapter, but he he goes on to talk about a different person in chapter 4 than what he was talking about in chapter 3. >> So in chapter 4, he's now talking about Abraham. What shall we say then was gained by Abraham our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God and was counted to him as righteousness. And so clearly Abraham lived prior to the Mosaic law. >> But we don't. >> And he's simply saying that >> he was justified on the basis of doing works whether that be works of law or not. Because obviously it can't be works of the law if he exists before the law. But if it's just works per se, it gives him something to boast about. Right? If you got salvation because you did X, Y, or Z, well then glory goes to you. But if you're not getting salvation based on what you do, but just based on a promise of God and believing the promise, all glory goes to God because he's doing the work.

>> Yeah. What's happening here, the the audience to whom Paul is writing, they're posterior to the law. And Paul makes this argument many times. For example, if you take Pauline authorship for Hebrews, I think you might. He makes the same point for the people who have the priesthood through the ironic descent. He makes an appeal to Abraham because he pre-existed it. The same applies here. Uh why are you tempting to be justified by works of the law? Talking to his audience. If even Abraham prior to any of the works of the law found justification. So his audience is after works of the law. And once again, the last paragraph like the immediate context is works of the law. And if you check 2 Corinthians 6:1, he makes it clear. Paul believes not only works but love are needed otherwise your your faith can't do anything. And he makes that clear as well. >> No, but that's again not thank for salvation. Of course, as Christians, we ought to have love. Very important in the Christian life. But just before we go to a different topic, because I'm happy to answer that one, but I I think what you've done here is you've just inserting things into the text that aren't there because Paul's not afraid of when he's talking about works of the law to say works of the law. >> Right? In Romans 3:28, he says that we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. So he'll repeatedly say works of the law in his letters, works of the law, works of the law. when he's referring to works of the law. Like a good example of one verse where he says it three times is Galatians 2:16. He says, "Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ. So we also have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law." Because by works of the law, no one would be justified. So if he's wanting to talk about works of the law, he's very comfortable in always saying works of the law. But in Romans 4, >> which he did, >> he's not doing that. He doesn't say works of the law. He's just broadening out to works in general that you're not justified by. And he tells us what you are justified by. Just believing believing is sufficient.

>> My my friend, I'm going to say one more time and I'll also show you from chapter 4. If you're just taking like you're reading this in the first century up until the 1300s, the last verse of chapter 3 talks about works of the law. The first two verses uses the words works again. And even in chapter 4, starting from verse 13 onwards, he invokes the word law again. He invokes it again. So this is assuming there's like some pre-existing chapter division. I agree. He would say >> no, we're not we're not we're not doing that. >> He did not say, remember chapter 3, he says here, let me read out chapter 3:31, the one that you cited. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means. On the contrary, we uphold the law. Now, what does that mean uphold law? Does that mean Paul's saying that we're actually bound by the Mosaic law? No. He said in chapter 20 uh so chapter 3 20 just a bit earlier on for by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight since through the law comes knowledge of sin. >> So Paul is upholding >> 13. So Paul is upholding the law of what he said in verse 31 by using the law for its intended purpose and that is not justification but bringing knowledge of sin. That's how he's upholding the law. But then in chapter 4 he tells us that you would have Abraham would have a reason to boast if he was justified by works. Would that apply just for works of the law or would that apply just in works in general? >> Works of the law. He says it in verse 13. He mentions Abraham again and says law. >> You didn't answer my question. >> Would Abraham if let's say let's say Abraham >> got justified before God because he gave uh a hundred sheep to somebody. If he got justified because he gave 100 sheep as a generous donation to somebody, would he then have a reason something to boast about? >> He wouldn't have something to boast about because it would have been God's calling prior. you would precise because then if he's justified, if he's going to heaven, he's given a hundred sheep. >> If he's justified on the basis of giving a hundred sheep to someone, a donation, just like someone today says, I gave a $1,000 to charity and so therefore that's why I think I'm going to heaven, >> they would have a reason to boast and say, "Look, I gave $1,000 to charity. That's why I'm going to heaven." If that was okay, I got it. And so >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so I don't think it's possible to be justified by just works. That's impossible. Like let's say if he was just by those works, yeah, he would have something to boast about. But as James says, he wasn't justified by the works alone, nor by the faith alone, but he was justified by works and not by faith alone. Meaning faith and works. James 2:20.

>> No, no, you've missed what he said. So the point is we I'm glad you agreed that if it was whether it's works of the Mosaic law or any works, if you justify it on the basis of them, you do have something to boast about. But then he contrasts it by saying he didn't do works, he just believed. So according to Paul here, on what basis was he counted as righteous? >> You're making a particular appeal. So if if Paul just said uh if Abraham had, you know, just justified himself by works, you know, uh then you'd have something to boast about, but you did a a sorry this might sound mean. Uh this is just the first word to come to mind. You did a slide of hand. You cited the verse saying to him who does not work, which is a different claim. So I'm saying to him who does not work that particular context applies to works of the law. He says it in verse 13. The chapter before talks about works of the law. >> It's not you you inserting >> look at verse 13. >> Verse 13 again he's talking about later on how it's not just the adherence of the law but those who share the faith of Abraham who's the father of us all. >> Exactly. >> I understand. I understand. But Paul's very particular here in explaining the basis of Abraham's justification because he is a model for all of us. So according to Paul on what basis was Abraham having his faith count him as righteous? Like why was he counted as righteous before God? >> Faith and works of faith. >> Is that what he says here in Romans 4? >> He says all through >> or did he or did he believe God and it was counted him as righteousness as it says here in the text in front of you? >> Yes, he believed God. It accounted him righteousness and it was included by works of faith. So was he counted as righteous >> in Genesis 15 or was he counted as righteous only when he hit Genesis 22? >> So he was counted as righteous in chapter 15. That's where it's written. >> Okay. So then he u without any works was justified before almighty God at that point. And so therefore going to heaven without any work. >> Three chapters of working there. There's three chapters of working between chapter 12 and chapter 15. But he wasn't declared righteous in 12,3 or 14. He's only declared righteous in 15. >> And there's works between 12 through 15. >> But was he counted as righteous on the basis of those works he's done beforehand? Or was he count as righteous on the basis of believing God? >> Believing God, which includes works. >> There we go. No, believing God does not mean including works. You're just inserting something in the text when it says that. >> Look, >> I can show you verse four. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. So what does that verse mean? >> It means it's not some debt that he's paying. He's not earning his righteousness by the works. >> All right? So if someone does works, their wages are not a gift to that person. They're due to them. Correct? >> If they if they attempt to be justified by those works solely, >> right? So if they think any works play a part in their justification, it's not a gift anymore. Correct? >> No. Works can play a part. Works can play a part without it being the telos of the justification. So I don't think you're thinking it's a requirement. If you're thinking I'm not going to be justified until I do this work, then you're seeking to be justified by that work. >> No, it's not seeking to be justified by that work. It's seeking that that grace is not received in vain. As St. Paul says in 2 Corinthians chapter 6 verse one, if you want to pull it up, >> it's not received well in vain. He says keep on believing, for example. And we should let that gospel message have an impact in terms of it should produce works >> and work together with him. >> But Paul's point is if you work, if works are part of it, then it's not a gift. It's due to you. So like maybe an example for you is if I say, look, I'm only going to give you dinner tonight if you cut up the vegetables. If you don't cut up the vegetables for me, then I'm not going to give you dinner. Well, then dinner is not purely a free gift. If it's contingent on your labor of having to cut up the vegetables for me, right? And so if Abraham had to do a certain amount of good works in order for him to be justified, then it's not a pure free gift. It's on the basis of what he did.

>> I I don't think Abraham has some goal and then has a quota of reaching that goal which are works. My position is that Abraham is justified by faith. I agree with you in the there is an external aspect but that that continuous process of working constantly mo motioning his will towards the god he believes in that is what ultimately justifies him because it's the faith working through love >> no but Paul's point is that it wasn't his working it was just his believing and that's why verse 5 says and to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is count as righteousness >> and it's actually important because Paul goes on to talk about when he was justified. If we go to scroll on even to verse 9, uh he says, "Is this blessing then only for the circumcised or also for the uncircumcised?" So, Jew or Gentile? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he'd been circumcised? >> It was not after, but before he was circumcised. So, it's an exact specific moment in time that he was justified. And so, it wasn't after It was before. >> So therefore his future actions of getting circumcised, sacrificing son Isaac is after his justification. >> Paul doesn't mention binding >> the basis of his justification. >> Paul mentioned circumcision which is a rule people had to keep under the law to whom his audience is being addressed about. As he says in verse 13, >> do you know when when did Abraham get circumcised? Abraham got circumcised way after I think chapter 15. I think 17. Chapter 17. >> Yeah. So this is his argument. Justified in chapter 15. >> Told to get circumcised in 17. Sacrifice his son in 22. All right. In Genesis. >> So his argument is it wasn't after circumcision. It wasn't after sacrificing his son Isaac. It was before that. So before he had done the most amazing things that Abraham did, which was circumcision and sacrificing his son, he's already counted as righteous just purely based on believing God's promise.

>> It was before, you're right, it's before 15, it's before 17, it's before 22, but it's after 13,4 and 12. 12, 13, 14. >> But Paul, Paul does not make the point, and neither does Genesis make the point that he's counted righteous based on what he did in 12, 13, or 14. >> It's based on his faith. It's based on his faith. And Paul defines faith as one which is constantly working. If I can show you, >> that's not how Paul defines faith. >> Can I show you? >> Paul defined faith. Remember Romans 4:21 I brought up before. >> He was fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised and that is why his faith was counted to him as righteousness. It wasn't Abraham did a whole lot of good works and that's why he's counted as righteous. He was just fully convinced. I'm going with the text here. >> Okay, let's go with the text that Abraham believed it was counted for righteous. What would you call that? Would you call that a gift? What do you mean the the righteousness? A gift or what? >> Like when God declared him righteous? Would you call that a gift? >> Yeah. To be Yeah. It's a gift to be declared righteous before God. >> Did he profit that by his faith? >> Faith was the means. It's the instrumental cause of how you receive justification. >> But faith is not works. Faith is not you producing some sort of good deeds, trusting in the promise of God. >> I'm not agreeing. It's like a exchange. But we could use the word prophet like it it's what brought about this ultimately brought about >> it was the instrumental cause. It was the means by which he received it. >> Does Paul say faith can profit anything without love? >> Well again faith, hope and love. You're talking about 1 Corinthians 13. >> That's talking about how we are to act in the Christian community. And in fact even mentions in chapter 12 of that same letter that there is a spiritual gift called good faith which not every Christian has but that's not talking about a a saving faith of how to go to heaven only those people going to heaven all the other people are not. No it's just talking about c certain people have unique faith in a different sense being able to trust God in certain circumstances in their life when not every Christian has it. Other Christians may have the gift of prophecy or the gift of tongues but these Christians have the gift of faith. Why does he say all faith in one Corinthians chapter 13:2? If I have all faith but have not love, it profits me nothing.

>> Yeah. So even if so in terms of how you are to use your spiritual gifts because that's what he's laid out in chapter 12. Even if you've got such great you got the gift of faith as mentioned in chapter 12. If you don't do this with love, it's pointless, worthless. The whole point of all the spiritual gifts >> is to do things with love. Do it with love so they can help the body. Without love, does it profit anything? >> It doesn't profit you anything in terms of the community. The believers are not encouraged. >> So, it couldn't have profited through an instrumental cause. Abraham's gift. >> No. Again, you're you're making a mistake here. You're using seeing the same word and you're seeing it in a different context and thinking that it means this exact thing in that context. >> He qualifies all things. >> That's a fallacy. >> He says all things. >> No, no. Have a look what he says. >> Go ahead. If I have prophetic powers and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. I am nothing. >> Gospel, what kind of faith was that? When Christ said, "If you have faith like a mustard seed, you'd be able to move mountains." What kind of faith is that? >> Correct. Correct. But remember, not all kinds of faith justify you. Not all faith is talking about saving faith. As we talked about in the last chapter, there are certain Christians who have a gift called faith which is different to justifying faith because other Christians have justifying faith and they don't have this gift of faith. Right? So he's saying even if you've got these are all hyperboles anyway. If I have prophetic powers and understand all mysteries and all knowledge no one's got that. God's got that. We don't have that. So he's giving hyper even if you could do this. Even if you could speak in the tongues of men and of angels but have not love, I'm a noisy going or clanging symbol. He's just showing how the spiritual g gifts should be all done with love. Look at the last verse of the previous chapter. I will show you still a more excellent way. This is the more excellent way is that you do all your service in the church with love for your fellow Christian and love for God. And if you don't, you're just a noisy gong and a clanging symbol. You're not helping anyone. So you can't take that chapter and therefore saying, "Oh, that's the same thing as what Paul's talking about in Romans 4." Different context, different thing.

>> I'll prove it. He >> that's not how you read the Bible. Well, man, I >> I'll show you. He He gives the type of qualification. He says it's the faith that moves mountains, which Christ defined it in Matthew 17. Matthew chapter 17 verse 20. He says because of your unbelief. In the Greek, it's the literal contrast of faith that he says in the same verse. Because of your unbelief, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to there, it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. So that's the type of faith because in one Corinthians 13, if I have all faith, even to move mountains, the one in contrast to unbelief, if it does not have love, it profits nothing. Which is why Christ says, >> still not talking or you'll be cut off. It has to be not talking about justifying faith. No, because it has to be. >> Do you agree that Christians can have unbelief, right? >> But I'm talking about the unbelief. The cont for example. Yeah. Yeah. You can have unbelief. Christians can have unbelief, but it's not talking about justifying faith or not. Because >> I'm talking about the contra opposite of unbelief. When you worry, when you worry about the future, when Jesus says, "Don't worry. Don't be anxious." But you do worry. >> Well, you are in a sense expressing unbelief at that moment. You're not expressing trust that in God's promise of I will never leave you nor forsake you. Those >> exactly you contrasted in yourself. >> Okay. So, but that is not justifying faith. So, that person can still >> the trusting faith. That is a justif. That person can still be trusting that Jesus took the punishment for their sins and still 100% be going to heaven when they die and yet still struggle with anxiety, still struggle with worry, which is a form of unbelief, which is a form of unbelief, pray that God gives you faith. What kind of faith is that? >> Help my unbelief. >> What kind of faith is that? >> You simply not have it seems like you don't have the category distinctions that Paul makes when he makes a distinction because the word faith can be used in different context. Sometimes it can be talking about a justifying faith. Other times it can just be talking about the Christian faith in general. Like if you don't provide for your family and your relatives, it says you've denied the faith. It's talking about not that they don't have saving faith in Jesus, but it it's just you're denying what Christianity is all about. If you don't actually want to care about your family, care for your family. And then the third type of faith is the one talked about in chapter 12 of of 1 Corinthians when he says it's a gift of faith and and just trusting God in different aspects. We're all growing in our faith. We say that >> we're all growing in our faith. >> The one from Matthew, the one from Matthew 17, the one that moves mountains in contrast to unbelief, like you just made the point, the one that's contrasted to unbelief is the trust in God. That's a saving faith.

>> No, not necessarily. You can trust God. Like for example, someone can trust God, trust the word of Jesus that he's going to return. There's going to be a second coming. He's going to return. And and they may live in light of that. They like, I really believe he's going to come back. That's a trust in God. Sure. But is that in itself going to save them? No. Because if they still trust in their works to save them, they're going to hell. So, it all depends what kind of faith we're talking about. We need to look to the passages in scripture that talk about how do you get counted as righteous? And so, Romans 4 is the perfect passage on that. And Paul links it up with us in regards to Abraham. I quoted um in Romans 4:21. I won't read that again how he's fully convinced. But then Paul links it with us in verse 23. But the words it was counted to him were not written for his sake alone. So not for Abraham's sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead, Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. So Paul says, "We're going to receive the same righteousness that Abraham received if we also just believe in him who raised Jesus um from the dead."

>> So you would take Romans chapter 4 to be qualifying a specific faith that one Corinthians 3 isn't qualifying? >> One Corinthians 13, you mean? >> One Corinthians 13, sorry. Yeah. >> Yeah. I was talking about two different things because I think we can't take things out of context. Paul's making an argument about justification here in Romans, but in 1 Corinthians, he's talking about how to act in the Christian church and use spiritual gifts with love. >> Is the mustard seed faith one for salvation, one unto salvation? >> Uh, it depends in the context. It depends if it's count is that person counted as righteous. Are does it say that you receive eternal life? Now, there are passages where Jesus does talk about how to have eternal life. >> Like John 6:47, he says, "Truly, truly I

"Say to you, 'Whoever believes has eternal life.'" So, the faith that he's talking about here is one where you get eternal life, but not every time. Um, you can have people believing Jesus is the Messiah, but that's not necessarily going to give them eternal life if they don't believe that he's paid for their sins. If they still reject him being their savior, even if he's the Messiah, they still wouldn't be saved.

So, I think maybe for you, I want to ask you about why do you think God should let you into heaven? Very simply, I am undeserving of heaven. It's a free gift. He shouldn't let me from heaven. It's what he did for me. That's why I should go to heaven. But also at the same time, what he did for me should be manifested in my love towards him and in my love towards others. Because he says, "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments. A new commandment I give to you. Love one another."

"Keep the commandments."

"Yes."

"Matthew chapter 19. If you want to enter, keep the commandments."

"Which you haven't done."

"None of us have done that."

"I know. But that's why I have to confess."

"So then how could you go to heaven on that basis?"

"Through his grace, he has to empower me to love."

"But if you haven't kept them, even if you're like, 'I'm trying to be better,' that's still not the same as keeping them, right? You're basically you think..."

"But no, it's you. 'Cause if it's him keeping in you, well then you're going to you don't blame God the fact that you break them. You blame yourself."

"Yes."

"Okay. So that is good though."

"All that is bad is my own. All that is good is of God's. That's why he says to abide in his love, not his love will be separated if I, you know, do bad. I'm abiding in his love. So the the negative applies to me. The positive applies to him."

"When Paul talks about his works, he says he's does it."

"He says, 'I am I have reason to be proud of my work for God.' So he calls it my work. His things."

"His own labor, which is why he didn't receive grace. So therefore, so therefore, if you want to make your commandment keeping part of the basis of why you're going to go to heaven, that's glory goes to you. And it's not all glory to God. It's glory to you because it's you keeping the commandments. But the issue is you haven't kept them. You're relying on the law to get you to heaven. The very thing that the Bible says you can't be justified by."

"I'm not relying on the law. As St. Paul says, 'By the grace of God, I am what I am. His grace toward me was not in vain. I labored more abundantly than than they all. Yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.' So again, all that is good applies to God. It's not my own glory. Even though I labored abundantly, the glory goes to God. That's why St. Paul says, 'Yet not I.'"

"So when Paul says here, and I mean Jesus says here, 'If you would enter life, keep the commandments.'"

"Yes."

"He's talking about the Ten Commandments, for example. Right?"

"Yeah. And he also also is further commandment in John that you love one another."

"Oh, but no, no, but in this is the the commandments."

"And then he's asked, 'Which ones?' And he lists specifically the Ten Commandments: 'Shall not murder, shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, you shall love your neighbor as yourself,' which is from Leviticus. So Ten Commandments plus what's in Leviticus. He's saying that you have to follow. So therefore, if you're trying to gain salvation or get to heaven by your keeping of the commandments, you are relying on the law because this is the law. This is the law. Mosaic law."

"What does he say in Matthew? 'What is the law and the prophets?' He gives a verse."

"Yeah. But this is the law. Correct."

"But but do you know what verse he says when it says 'this is the law and commandments'? This is the law of..."

"Prophets. He Yeah. He talks about he gives a a summary of the heart in in terms of like justice and mercy and love that talk."

"And Paul says Paul says this contains all of the law."

"That's a fulfillment of the law. You're quoting Romans 13 there where he says love is the fulfillment of the law. But you're trying to quote Jesus just wait."

"You're trying to quote Jesus here who says, 'If you'd enter life, you got to keep the commandments.' So that is the Mosaic law. That's at least part of the Mosaic law is the commandments. But then we contrast that with Galatians 3:10 and it says, 'For all who rely on works of the law, which would include the Ten Commandments, are under a curse. For it is written, cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law and do them.' So as soon as you make any part of the Mosaic law a basis of your entry to heaven, you got to keep the entire thing to get there. And so then he says, 'Well, you can't.' Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law. For the righteous shall live by faith, but the law is not of faith."

"Can you just show one verse? Matthew 7:12. If you can show it on screen."

"Yeah. So do before we go to another passage. Do you understand? By you relying on works of the law, you're under a curse because the very thing that you think is going to get you to heaven, your commandment keeping is the very thing God's going to say, 'You broke it here, here, here, here.' Just like me, I've broken God's commandments. I'm not I'm not the thing is I'm not relying on all those commandments listed one by one. I'm relying on how they are manifested in the new covenant which is what I'll show you in Matthew 7:12."

"So then to enter life, do you have to keep the commandments like Jesus said?"

"Read Matthew 7:12, you'll see the answer if you just look it up."

"Matthew 7:12."

"Yes."

"'Whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets.' This is a summary of it. But that doesn't mean that therefore the other parts are negated. Terrible reading."

"Matthew 22:40. The same the same place. Use a different word. Matthew 22:40."

"But again, you what you're doing is you're basically Jesus is giving a summary here of what the law requires. And you're like, therefore, I can maybe hold to this, but I can ignore whatever what else Jesus said. That's a dishonest reading."

"And these two depend all the law and the prophets. And now what were they? One was to love God with a whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Have you done that, by the way?"

"I I hope to every day."

"You haven't, though. If you're honest with yourself."

"I'm I'm I would say no. I've not done this a single day of my life. Because to love God with my whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, it would be to never sin ever again. Unless you claim sinless perfectionism, I hope you don't."

"I don't."

"But unless Okay. Well, then you would have to admit that you don't love God as much as you ought to love him."

"I don't. You're right."

"So, you fail on that. I fail on that every day too. And we also fail the second one. You love your neighbor as yourself. We fail on that every day. We often care more about ourselves than other people."

"Do you see how these two are all summarized contained in one law which he repeats in John? 'A new commandment I give to you that you love one another as I have loved you.'"

"So that's..."

"Which you haven't done. You have not loved one another as much as Christ has loved us. So therefore, you fail on that one too, man."

"Not to the same extent, but as God works in me, that is how I'm assured of salvation. As it says in 1 John from chapters 2 to 5."

"Wait up. You haven't loved God as I've loved you. As means to the degree of..."

"Not not to a complete degree. I agree."

"No. No. Jesus requires you to be perfect. He says, 'You must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect' in Matthew 5:48."

"Right? So my encouragement is look, you can look at God's law. See even the summary commandments, loving God, loving neighbor. I haven't done that. I failed. I should be in hell. So therefore, I'm not going to trust in any of those things as playing any part in getting me to heaven. I'm going to trust in someone who has loved God perfectly and loved neighbor perfectly, Jesus Christ. And so just depend on his finished work and then you can be 100% sure you're going to heaven because you say you are 100% sure you're going to heaven."

"I don't have assurityity. St. Paul says if you did have assurityity, you will fall. 'He who thinks he stands will fall.' He says that one Corinthians. That's 1 Corinthians chap 10:13. I think you've just taken that out of verse 12. He says, 'Therefore, let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.' That's in regard to temptation. So, if you're like, 'I'm going to let my guard down. I think I'm I've overcome that sin. I'm not going to put up a defense.' Well, then you're probably going to fall."

"And that's why it's in the context of temptation. No temptation has overtaken."

"Well, not in the context. You took a verse out of context. The context is all about temptation of fighting sin. chapters the chapters before it's talking about some assurance you have in the chapters before."

"He says, 'The one who has knowledge, knowledge puffs up, love edifies.' So I don't ask myself, 'Do I have this mental comprehension of where I'm going?' Why would I think I stand? I'll fall. Why do I have knowledge which puffs up? I focus on my love in the here and the now."

"In the context of first Corinthian, that knowledge is knowing that you can eat food that's sacrificed to idols and that could destroy somebody who thinks if they have a weaker conscience. That's what the knowledge is. And he's like, 'Therefore, I'm willing not to even eat meat around them if it's going to cause them to stumble.' That's what he's saying there."

"But it was only you have all knowledge. That's when he said it."

"So of course applies that particular context about the idols. I agree. But the whole point is a general rule that knowledge puffs up and love edifies and that thinking you standing."

"But this is about fighting against sin and therefore don't let your guard down. Don't think I don't need a I can watch that movie that may have smutty stuff in it. No, don't do that because you could fall into sin. So, don't do that."

"And he then goes on to say..."

"Covered by Christ. Why should I worry?"

"Well, because if you love what if you trust in Christ, you love him and you therefore don't want to displease him. You want to try honor him as much as you can."

"Couldn't I be saved without loving? Couldn't I be saved without loving?"

"Well, as a result of having trust in Jesus, it it makes you have love for him and therefore that love will grow and you'll be sanctified as time goes on. So, it's clearly about temptation."

"So, why would I ask myself if it will gradually happen? Why should I ask myself not to watch such a movie? It'll gradually happen. Why should I have that inner conflict? I'm covered. I have a genuine faith. It'll just happen."

"Yeah. Just like if God promised that I'm going to have my daily needs met like in Matthew 6, 'Don't be anxious.' And he says, um, 'Just seek first his kingdom and all these things will be added to you.' Does that mean I don't have to eat food? It's going my belly is going to be filled with food because no clear means."

"Go. All right. God uses means for that to be fulfilled. And that can be either employment, right? Otherwise you'll perish."

"And so in the same way, God uses the means of us daily Bible reading, prayer, and other things like that, avoiding sinful or potentially sinful things in order to please Christ better and grow in our faith more. Um, but assurance of salvation, I think, is something if you don't have it, I want you to have it, right? Because first John 5:13 says we can have it."

"I'll just read this out and then you can tell me your thoughts. 'I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know you have eternal life.' So God wants us to know. And if you don't know, come to believe what John's saying. Can you give me 30 seconds just to answer this?"

"30 seconds."

"1 John 2:3-5 right before this. 'By this we know that we know him if we keep his commandments. He who says I know him but does not keep his commandments is a liar.' And then verse 10, 1 John 2:10, 'He who loves his brother abides in the light. There's no cause for stumbling.' And then chapter 3:10, 'In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest. Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God.' Chapter 3:14, 'We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren.' In 1 John 3:17-19, 'Whoever has this world's goods, he is brothers in need shuts up his heart from him. How does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and truth. By this we know that we are of the truth and shall assure our hearts before him.' And then last ones if you read chapter four it says, 'Love has been perfected among us in this. There's no fear in love. Perfect love casts out fear. He who fears has been made perfect in love.' And then he says, 'This is how you know you'll have eternal life.'"

"So those so those passages I all agree with 100% of them. They don't go against my position but this goes against your position. It does. That's why you weren't able to explain it. You just went to other passages but you weren't able to explain the passage. 'This is how I know I have eternal life.' No. But you don't think you have eternal life. You don't know. You said, 'I'm not sure if I'm going to heaven.' That's not knowing you have eternal life."

"I don't have 100%. I have a confidence."

"That's not knowing that you have eternal life."

"It's having a confidence as as St. John says."

"Cuz but that's not knowing. I I know. For example, if my wife says, 'Dinner, be ready at 6 p.m. tonight.' Right? And I'm like, 'I'm not sure. I'll find out.' Well, then I don't trust my wife, right? So in the same way if I'm saying if someone asks me am I going to heaven I say I don't know I'm not find out in the end if he lets me in or not then I don't trust Christ's promise of eternal life that he's given to me."

"I trust him that every day I have to constantly examine myself if I'm loving my brother and if I'm loving God. And that's why he says this is how we have a confidence. 1 John chapter 3 he says in verses 20 to 24, 'If our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things.' So even if I have a doubt, God is greater than that. He knows all things. And then he continues, 'Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence towards God.' So there could be a chance my heart doesn't condemn me. But even if I did, my heart condemned myself, God knows whether I could still be saved or not. And then you can."

"I think the reason why you're not sure though, I just quickly say, the reason why you're not sure, go ahead."

"All right. Is because you are basing it on how well you keep his commandments. And realistically, you'd be like, 'I don't know. We'll see. Hopefully, I'm keeping I don't know. I fail all the time and stuff like that, like we all do.' But as soon as you get rid of the commandment keeping as part of what's gaining you salvation, get rid of that and you just rely on what Jesus did on the cross to save you. Do you see why I can be 100% sure I'm going to heaven if I don't make my commandment keeping part of what's going to get me to heaven? Do you see that?"

"Well, why did John say? That was the last verse I was about to read. You cut me off. John says right there, right right where before you went on that monologue, he says, 'This is his commandment that we should believe on the name of his son Jesus Christ. Amen. And love one another as he gave this commandment. Now he who keeps his commandments abides in him and he in him. And by this we know that he abides in us.'"

"That's consistent with my position. Can you answer my question now? You didn't answer my question. That's perfectly consistent with my position."

"Can you abide in God without love?"

"Well, because abiding in his love is different to abiding in Christ. Yes, there's a distinction in John's gospel even about that. But can you please answer my question?"

"I am."

"If I don't make commandment keeping as part of what's getting me to heaven, but it's just based on what Jesus did for me on the cross. Do you see why I can be 100% sure that I'm going to heaven?"

"You would have a false shy. I could be 100% sure I'll make a billion dollars tomorrow, but I'll fall. 'He who thinks he stands will fall.' It would surprise."

"What if God promised you something? How sure could you be it's going to happen if he promised you something?"

"I'm sure as far as his part."

"As far as his part. As far as my part. I'm unsure because I'm a sinner."

"But hold up. But he could promise you something not based on your behavior. He could just promise to do something. God does that. Like even with Noah with um the rainbow. He says, 'I will promise that I will never flood the earth ever again.' That wasn't contingent on Noah doing something. He's just never going to flood the earth again. So God can do the same thing. We call it a unilateral promise where God is the only he's the only party making the promise. I don't have to make a promise back to him. He's the only one making the promise. And so if I just believe his promise, I can be 100% sure he'll deliver on that."

"You yourself believe. In order for him to deliver, you need to believe. That's your own party. That's a conviction yourself."

"And if I believe, therefore, can I be 100% sure I'm going to heaven?"

"If you also love one another and love God."

"That's what John says."

"Again, he said the condition was believing. 'For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.'"

"So if I believe and I can know if I'm believing, therefore I know I have eternal life. But the reason why you're not sure is because you add extra conditions, performance, behavior."

"Which gives you reason for boasting."

"I don't have reason for boasting because he's the one loving me."

"Was Paul sure of his own salvation? He said he's sure in so far as he labored more abundantly as he says in 1 Corinthians 15."

"So as in he was so could Paul be 100% sure he was going to heaven?"

"In so far as he labored and loved."

"Is that what he says? I can only be 100% sure if I labor in love."

"I mean, he says that's how you don't receive the grace of God in vain. But doesn't he say, 'I buffet my flesh lest I be disqualified?'"

"1 Corinthians chapter 8."

"Yeah. As in disqualified for ministry. That's the context there."

"From the crown. Says from the crown."

"Which is rewards in heaven. Which is rewards in heaven. There are rewards that Christianalified disqualified from rewards."

"No. Yeah. But not entry to heaven. Paul was still certain of his entry into heaven. Let me show you Second Timothy."

"Why does Christ conflate them in Revelation?"

"Second, let me show you Second Timothy chapter 4 about Paul's assurance. He says um he says I'll go bit of context verse 17. 'But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion's mouth.'"

"'The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever.'"

"Go to vers."

"Go to verse seven."

"So Paul was Yeah. But I understand before you want to skip away to some other verse. Do you see how Paul."

"Paul is saying that he the Lord will bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom? He was sure and I've got the same certainty that Paul does because I share the faith the same faith that Abraham has. The same faith that Paul has."

"Go to verse seven."

"If you go earlier on, you want to go verse seven."

"Yes."

"And 8. 'I have fought the good fight. I have finished the race. I have kept the faith.' So he's kept on trusting in Jesus because I believe we do have to keep on trusting in Jesus."

"But he he does keep us. Paul says that verse 8, 'Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord the righteous judge will award to me on that day and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.'"

"All so you see he conflates he conflates being saved with the crown and he himself says he can lose that crown in 1 Corinthians chapter 8."

"So in so far as he's not disqualified he knows he's saved but he can't be disqualified from the crown."

"He says all who love appearing. Is there going to be such a one who does not receive that crown?"

"Paul does not say crown of righteousness in 1 Corinthians chapter 9. You've added to the text in first."

"It's a race and a crown."

"He's talking about two different things there."

"Again, notice you don't even want to go to the text there. Like."

"It's the same."

"He's talking about two different things here. The crown of righteousness will award God will award to me on that day. Right? Not because Paul's been laboring hard enough."

"He says it."

"But because he believes. It says because."

"Paul even describes about why he he's saved. He says in Titus 3:5, he says, 'He saved us not because of works done by us in righteousness.' On your view, keeping the commandments, loving one another, they are works done by you in righteousness. And so Paul's wrong on your view."

"The works of God manifested through me."

"Paul says, 'I work.' And so you do works. We, you know, I do work. He'll do works."

"He says, 'Work out your salvation.' He says, 'Work out your salvation. It is God who works in you both to will and to do for his good pleasure.' Philippians chap 2:12-13."

"He saved us working because of works."

"His working is God's working. And I agree here. It says he's not saved by works because he's talking about baptism in Titus 3. And baptism is a."

"He's not talking about it doesn't mention baptism one little bit here. He's saying he saved us not because of works done by us in righteousness. He denies works."

"It talks about the regeneration of of the Holy Spirit and water."

"Which is no, it doesn't say of water. Let's read the rest of the verse. 'But according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.' Nothing about water here. This is talking about the Holy Spirit softening our heart, bringing us to him."

"Man, you believe honestly, you do believe in a works at least a partly works based salvation."

"Not partly. You yourself like if if we're going to play that if we're going to play that."

"You said it's faith and works. You said it's faith and works."

"Let's take that. Let's take that word 'partly.' Even in your system, there's partly works involved. It's the external manifestation. Don't you? Isn't there a part of working?"

"No, but that still doesn't play a part in getting me to heaven. It plays zero part in God accepting me in."

"But it plays a part in showing the genuity of your faith. So without it, you never had a genuine faith. Therefore, you're."

"Sure, it can help others. My good work could help my neighbor, but that doesn't mean that's getting me to heaven."

"But it says it completes your own faith."

"Because it brings it to its intended end, but I'm still saved without it in the sense of if I have faith and I die. Yeah. If I have faith and die, just like a thief on the cross, I'm going straight to heaven. In fact, 1 Corinthians 3 talks about people who have all their works burnt up."

"If you have a look at 1 Corinthians 3:14, uh it talks about people having their works survive and they get a reward. It's a treasure in heaven. But if anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. So even if someone's good works are all shown to be lousy works, they are still saved if their trust is in Christ. This is about being saved from annihilation in my position. As it says in Isaiah, 'the worm is undying.'"

"Saved from the wrath of God. Correct?"

"No. Saved from annihilation because the works were burned up. They were annihilated."

"So, as in they're still going to heaven then, right?"

"No, they're going to hell."

"Hold up. Hold up. They're going to hell. Where does it say 'though he himself will be himself will be saved?'"

"You think that person is still going to hell?"

"Yes. The word save, the word save can mean exempt. Like I was hungry. I love all foods, save burgers. It's an exemption."

"Where does it say this person goes to hell?"

"It's talking about fire. It's safe from annihilation. Saved as fire."

"Where does it say this person's going to hell?"

"I'm telling you, it's an exemption from annihilation. That's the usage of savior."

"That's what you're asserting. But I'm saying where does it say this person's therefore going to hell?"

"You want the exact word? I'm contextualizing."

"Something along that. No, some sort of any sort of indication where it says this person will be going to hell."

"Do the works go eternal burning? Do the works undergo eternal burning?"

"No. The works tested by fire and they're burnt up, shown that they're bad quality. They're made of wood, wood, hay, or straw."

"So, they didn't remain."

"But the person themselves are saved. Where in the text does it say that this this person is going to hell? Again, it it's a a contrast to the passage right before. He himself will suffer loss. It's annihilated. It's it's completely brought out of existence. But in so far as he has an eternal conscious torment in hell, he's exempt from that annihilation. That's how I."

"He's suffering loss because he thought that maybe the good works were going to get rewarded in heaven, but they didn't because they weren't maybe done with right motives."

"But also because the works themselves were shown to be nothing. They were annihilated. They're reduced to nothing. But I'm just asking you and ask you one more time. Where does it say that this person is going to hell?"

"If it says they'll be saved."

"There's no shown the context. I can show you. Let me read. Let me read a bit of context."

"Alone."

"Right? This is talking about Christians here. This is not talking about non-Christians going to hell. This is talking about Christians and about laying a foundation."

"Right. One builds. Paul says, 'I planted, Apollos watered, God gave the growth.' That's the context. Right."

"Right. He says, 'If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work,' this is the work of Christians, building upon the foundation. Each one's work will become manifest for the day, so the day of judgment will disclose it because it will be revealed by fire. And the fire will test what sort of work each one has done, what each work Christian, a Christian has done. If the work that anyone has built in the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. Said treasures in heaven. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.' So in what we've read, does there any indication this person is going to hell?"

"Uh, in one corin 1 Peter chapter 1:7, I think it makes that connection clear."

"It's the same point. It's not about fire, the the wood, and the hay being tested."

"It's not different. That's a different author and that's not the context. I'm saying anywhere in the passage itself where it indicates that this person's going to hell."

"Yes. It's talking about the day of judgment. This is so everyone's being judged. Correct."

"Christians are being judged. This is about Christians, not about non-Christians."

"Sure. Sure. It's talking about people who relied on their works. I agree. So that's going to include Christians. They're going to be."

"It's not about people relying on their works. This is about Christians laboring for the Lord."

"It's about ministry. Yes. The works themselves are going to be burned up."

"Fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building. And so he's talking about labor that we do in as Christians, particularly evangelism is talking about here. And he's saying all that's going to be tested. Make sure we just lay the right foundation. Otherwise, the work gets burned up."

"On what day?"

"On the day of judgment because Christians are going to be judged for their work, not for entry to have reward."

"Every other pl and it does talk about entry in in one in one Peter chapter 1 vers7. It mentions."

"Not in 1 Corinthians 3. Notice how you're having to import a different context to try and bring into analogy of Paul, which."

"Different context."

"Every instance of fire and day of judgment is like almost always hell in the in the Bible, New Testament and Old Testament."

"Uh day of judgment doesn't have to just be um for non-Christians because Christians are going to be tested. Our works."

"And judged."

"Um."

"Yeah, judge. Exactly. Our works will be judged."

"Yes. So the works themselves will suffer loss. He himself will be saved but as through fire meaning he'll be exempt from that annihilation."

"But you think that person is still going to hell."

"Yes. As it says on the."

"Text doesn't say. I think people have seen the text doesn't say that. But can I encourage you just to reflect on this because I want you to go to heaven. I just know that if you do trust in your commandment keeping other things like that you won't make it in. Please do change your mind. Find that rest that we've got that you just realize, okay, it's all Jesus. Nothing about me. All Jesus. That's why I'm going to heaven. Otherwise, you succumb to a system like Islam where they're not sure about where they're going. They're unsure, wavering about am I going to heaven? Not sure. Find out Allah's going to decide. Christianity is much superior because it's based on better promises. And God promised me eternal life. So that's why I can know I've got eternal life. I believe him. I believe his promise. So I've got eternal life. So I appreciate you coming up, man. Thanks for the good conversation. We pray for you."

"Have a good one. God bless."