Jamie Winship | Finding Your People

Who are your people? Who are your people? And what experiential relationship are you in with God where you sit with him and go, "You know what I did last week? You know what happened to me last?" And then you do it. That's a witness. That's a witness. Yeah. I I'm telling you, when a 10-year-old and a seven-year-old understand what you're saying, that is the highest compliment. It really is. And um yeah, that's just such an honor. be be with the little kids that Donna was walking them through what she does with our own grandkids and um just how quickly they can hear and how quickly how open they are to it and um how they dream and how they imagine things and how the world was just going to slowly take it away from them, right? As uh unfortunately and so you really do need to foster that in your kids. um it it just builds creativity. It locks creativity into how they think about things. Um so that's really important and I'm glad that we have the opportunity.

I just also want to say that um last week we were in Seattle doing a a week-l long it seemed like a week long. It was four days or something long thing um for our own um organization. And uh I just want you to know I was not the main speaker. Donna was the main speaker and uh yeah and she's phenomenal. The problem is I said this on Friday night once Donna speaks like I don't I they don't ask me to come back up anymore. That's really true because she's a teacher and she's really concise and if you notice my style is well we don't really know what it is. It just kind of goes all over the place. And so I I do what I do and then Donna comes up and explains what that all meant. And so then they say it would be just shorter if just Donna did it. Like so that's what happened. So I have to like take the limelight when I get an opportunity to. But she is actually speaking in our church. When you're It's coming up, Donna. She's not even paying any attention to me. Look at that. See, when are you speaking at our church? March 3rd. March 3rd. Yeah. And she's a great speaker. So absolutely. And in the first service, I was talking about how we met and um and just how because Donna is from a Jewish background and I'm from a Christian background and how we met and how God is God is always weaving things together. So incredible. And and God is all about timing and we're always in a hurry. We have expectations and God's always about timing and weaving things together and the right pace. And in Mark when Jesus says this is the gospel of God, the very first thing he says is is the time is right. The time has come. Think of think of when Paul says at the right time Christ died. Not too soon, not too late, at the right time. And so one thing you can trust God with is timing. But we have to wait on his timing. And it's worth it.

You know, I'm I'm 64 and a lot of what Donna and I are doing together after 40 years is stuff we dreamed about when we were 19. And it's what those little kids are thinking about now. It's in there. God's building it into them. And at the right time, it'll come out, right? And so you want to guard it and protect it and nourish it like as parents and help them help them understand who they are and then and you understand who they are. We're not trying to make them into someone that's dangerous. But to help them discover who God has made them to be and how to release that into the world. That's what parenting is. The greatest gift you can give to any other human is your identity. Let me say that again. The greatest gift you can give to any other person is the identity that God knit together in your mother's womb because it's God's gift to the world. Is you in your identity. So if you're going to give a great gift between me and Donna, the greatest my identity is untie of knots. So it's a journey. It's a process of understanding your identity. Like when God says to Gideon, "You're a mighty man of valor." Remember the position Gideon was in when God said, "You're a mighty man of valor." He was living the life of a coward. He was fully committed to living the life of a coward. And when the angel of the Lord shows up and doesn't even just just starts with you're my man mighty man of valor and just continues on and Gideon's like wait who are you talking to I'm talking to you and then Gideon goes to explain why he's not a mighty man of valor. Can you believe that? Can you imagine a prayer life where in your prayer life you're explaining to God why you're not who he says you are? That's what we do. And and Gideon's like, "Wait a second. Wait a second. If I'm a I can't be a mighty man of valor because God's abandoned us. God has forsaken us and I'm from the least. I'm from the smallest tribe and I'm the weakest and the lowest in the tribe." And everything he says about himself historically is correct. We're from the smallest tribe. True. And I'm the least of the people. Yes, that's correct. And therefore, I'm a coward. Incorrect. That's not true. You're a mighty man of valor. And the angel of the sword go says, "Go in the strength that you already possess." It wasn't like the angel of the Lord was coming to give us some magic power. Like that's that's not realistic. Go in the strength you've always had. You've always had it. You've always been a mighty man of valor. You just didn't know it. And you let the world tell you who you are and you agree with it. And so you're hiding in a cave. And a lot of us are hiding in a cave. And our whole strategy is survival. That's it. That's all we got. Survival. And Gideon is being brought out of the cave because he's the one guy that can turn the country. Where's the one guy that can turn this country around? We don't know. We haven't met him yet. He's hiding in a cave somewhere. It's none of these famous people. I'm telling you. Otherwise, we'd have turned around. And we're not turning around. the people the people that can turn this thing around are sitting right here. Really, I'm not joking.

So, I said earlier that that when Don and I come to do these sorts of things, the reason we come and we're, you know, we're careful where we go, our question to God is always, are you inviting us into this? Are you inviting us into this? Because if you're not inviting us into us, we're not going. That's Moses's statement. If you're not going, I'm not going. And if you're staying here, I'm staying here. I don't care who's asking. I'm asking you, Lord, show me your way. And so we when we pray and like, God, are you inviting us into this, whatever it is, and we get the go-ahad from the spirit of God and from our community, it's always word of God, spirit of God, people of God. always word of God, spirit of God, people of God. So be in community and we live in Don and I live in community. And so when we think, "Oh, here's an invitation." We think this is the Lord. Our community has to agree. This is how you protect yourself from the world. And so, so when we, you know, when that's clear and we say, "Okay, we're going to go to Witchah." We know that the reason God wants us in Witchita is for our benefit, not like we're coming in here to impart this amazing wisdom on you. It's because there are people and identities here that me and Donna need to meet that continues our journey that we can't go forward in without you. So then we can't wait to get here not to speak to see who's here. And I'm telling you, I I've met those people and it's been hu it like helps clarify the next step in what me and Donna are doing with our team because we've met you here. That's the value of being here for us. I I don't know how to thank you enough for that.

Right. So, um, so what I just wanted to go out with, and I was really asking the Lord like what what would what would he want me and my identity to communicate, you know, on on the way out, but I I'm looking forward to coming back here again. I feel quite attached here. I really do. It's great. I love it. Yeah, I do. Yeah, that's not always the case, but I don't want to name the places where I didn't feel attached. Um, yeah. So, uh, but I really do, and it's it's a it's a really interesting feeling when we're in different locations, just how you feel, how the like it's the spirit. You can tell when the spirit is in a place very clear. You can tell when it's not really present there or it's grieved. It's there but it's grieved or quenched. That's frustrating, but like that's God invites us into sometimes. Um, but so I'm glad about being here and I'm glad to be back here at some point. There's a there's so much happening here. You guys are really I think I I think what Tim said is like really true and Donna's been saying it is like you're really it's it's like you're really at the into the flow of something large, right? And it just takes time. We we call it being in the river because you can't push a river. You can only go with the river, right? And so when you're in the river, the flow of the spirit, the river, our thing is we always say that to each other, just flow with the river. And sometimes the river is fast and turbulent and it may flip your little boat over. But here's the only thing you sh you can't do. Don't swim upstream too hard. Don't get out. Stay in it. Don't Don't get out of the river. Then everything stops. stay in the river and some I was one one of my writing partners in Seattle out he's a he's 30 years younger than me and he's like so good at what he does and I was asking him the other day because we're working on this film project and I said how do you feel like tell me what's going on in your spirit are you in the river how's the river and he said he said the river is like almost not moving you know those times you get in a river and you just it's like it's not moving moving, but it is, but it's really slow. He said, I feel like it's not moving. And I said, I don't know. I felt like that was negative. And he goes, which is like sometimes right before a waterfall. And I think that's where we're going to a waterfall. I think that's I think you guys are going to a waterfall. I think so. I think that's what's happening. And um it's a it's cool to feel the flow with you, right?

So I wanted to I wanted to Lord what do you want me to say and then this the word this word witness just kept coming to my mind witness you are we are his witnesses right so this is Acts chapter 1 um 1-1 and so in the first service I was just talking about just kind of how me and Donna met and how we got on this journey and we our first assignment was on this island in Indonesia and it it's a it was a radical it's not today, but it was back then. They called it the missionary graveyard island. It's a welcoming feeling going there. And um but um and it was it's you know Muslim a Muslim island. It was a it was radicalized. It was um by different outside countries were radicalizing the island to destabilize Indonesia. This is back in the 90s. And um and that was our first assignment. and I worked for the Ministry of Education of Indonesia. So we weren't that's how we went. And Donna worked for the government of New Zealand there. So that's that that's the way we operated. Um so I worked in the university there. I taught in the university. I taught grad students initially grad students because they wouldn't let me near undergrads because they had never had a foreign professor in this university and it was 98% Muslim. Um, and so that was my teaching position. And so I went into that university. Um, I had taught at the University of South Carolina right before that and then went over into the work for the Ministry of Education of Indonesia. Went into that university and I just did everything wrong because when I was a police officer, I could move around and I had this very intuitive sense of God when I was in the police department. I just it was just like I was just moved by God to become a police officer when I was in eighth grade. And by the time I got there at age 23, I was just so ready for it and I just loved it. And I just I talked to a Witchita police officer last night and like just two minutes of us talking. It's like, yeah, that that that we didn't even say what it was. It was just that thing. Like you know you belong there. And it's joyful. It's hard. It's frustrating. It's sad. It's tragic. but it's you belong there and there's a kind of joy in it and so he like yeah it was just beautiful and that's how I felt and I never wanted to leave I was totally happy there and Donna was teaching in a school in in her education degree and I was just happy and Donna wanted to go overseas and for five years she would say to me I want to go overseas and eventually and I want to make this point strong to you when God invites you into something he will invite you in a way that makes sense to to you. So beautiful. He will not manipulate you with guilt to do something. Boy, I was raised that way. And so, uh, he'll call you and you will recognize his voice in whatever it is where your identity is. So that's why when you're reading through the scriptures and you see all all these characters having experiential interactions with God or Christ, they're never the same. Do you notice that? There's no formula to it. I wonder why. Because it's about mystery and it's about God being personal to you. So for Moses, a burning bush. What did it mean? It meant so much to Moses that it was a burning bush beyond what we would even know. Some Moses was consumed to be a deliverer. He was consumed with it, but the the consuming destroyed him. It ruined him because like to be a deliverer, I'm going to kill people. And that and that was like, no. And so then he sees this bush that's on fire but not consumed. Like is there a fire that can burn inside of me? White, hot, holy, but it doesn't burn me up. There it is. He can God is showing it to him. I want you to burn like this, but don't murder people. Like that's not how I do it like that. And so how God comes to each of us experientially and personally is so powerful. And so my I told Donna, I'm pretty sure God is not going to ask me to come forward in a missions conference because going forward in a church when I was raised was pure guilt and like something's wrong with you if you don't go forward. You know, I I just don't find that in scripture. But um but that's how humans manipulate things. But for Donna going because she grew up in the temple in the synagogue and going forward was hugely meaningful to her and Christ was new to her. So it's very she wanted to go forward like that and for me going forward was a completely different scenario. And um and so I knew that if God called me like he did in a movie theater that he would call me again in a similar way. And so my invitation to go overseas with Jesus was from a State Department interview. And it was just as powerful as Donna going forward in a missions conference. You see that? That's the beauty. like relax, calm down, pay attention though because the calling can come anywhere. But it will play it'll be in a place where it makes sense to you. Like we don't have to manipulate people ever. Let the spirit do what the spirit does. And it's saying jump in the river. Come on, jump in. And so when the state department's like, "Can you do what you do overseas? We have a job for you." That's what they said. And the Lord's like, "Jump in that river because this river is going way beyond what you're doing in the police department. It's exactly what you're doing in the police department, but it's a much bigger river." The the police department was like a stream that I loved flowing into a river that was bigger. That's all it did. It just was so beautiful. Like, how did we get in this river? This was so smooth. And they're like, "Can you do that overseas?" Because And I came home after meeting with those guys. I met with them late at night because that's where they do their work. And I came home late at night and Donna was hugely pregnant with number kid number two. And and so I I get into bed next to her and I kind of wake her up and I go, "Guess what?" She knew I went to this meeting. Guess what? And she's like, "What?" She has to get up, you know, and teach. And I'm like, "Guess what?" She's like, "What?" And I said, "We're moving to the Muslim world." To my Jewish wife. I wake her up to pregnant wife to tell her we're moving to the to do we all. She thinks she's having a nightmare. That's what she thinks. She says, "What?" And I said, "This is how what a good husband I am. This is why we never do marriage conferences." And I go, I go, "Ever." Our kids recommended that we never do parenting or marriage conferences. They I said, "We're moving to a Muslim country and I'm going to infiltrate militant Muslim organizations and pacify them. We're moving to Egypt." And I don't know why she just burst into tears. I don't know why. Like, are you that happy? Because I'm happy. Are you that happy? Oh my gosh. She said, "I'm not going." Okay. All right. All right. I thought that's just the hormones talking tomorrow. It'll all make sense to you tomorrow. It did not make sense the next day, too. It was worse. Anyway, but I knew I knew that was God's invitation and how it went from there was like unex I couldn't it was just unexpected how anyway end up in Indonesia and our first assignment over there first term five years we spent there and um and I got arrested this is how good I was at this I got arrested and put on trial for insulting Islam um which was 10 years in prison and I went to the trial offer service if you weren't here. I'm just recapping. If you've heard it, just hit skip recap. And and went to the trial ready to go to prison for 10 years. And um this Muslim leader interrupted the sentencing part of the trial and say rescued me. And he turned out to be this very powerful guy who when he was working on his PhD in the US, two grad students were the ones that poured their life into him. Two grad students who were followers of Jesus who he loved. And when he came back to Indonesia, he read he he he was in Jakarta and he read about what was happening in my situation and he flew there to intercede on my behalf because the previous leader had died the day before in a car accident and he had been promoted to leadership. It was funny after it was over. Well, so he comes in, he intercedes, and he says, you know, he I come outside to I didn't know who he was. And I come outside, I'm like, "Who are you?" And he tells me he tells me who he is. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, you're so that was so kind of you to come." And he said, "I want you to know that what you're doing here is offending and insulting my people, and you better find a different way to say it." Basically what he was saying with is what the apostle Paul says in first Corinthians if you remember he says you can have all knowledge you can be the best evangelist on the planet you can speak with the tongues of angels and the tongues of men you you can you can even be willing to die a martyr's death but if you do any of it without love. It is an irritant to people and a waste of time. That's what that guy was saying to me. This Muslim guy, he's saying to me, "These two students that I met at Arizona State loved me and my wife and they sacrificed on our behalf so that I would graduate as high as I did in the PhD program." To their own detriment, they did that. They loved me. What you are doing here is not love. You are here because you think you're better than us. And you think that you're gonna tell us why we're wrong and why you're right. And I'm telling you, it's going to get you killed here. Say what Jesus wants you to say. Say it the way Jesus would say it. Man, that stung. And I was greatly humbled by it. And the Lord that I'll It's like Jesus himself was saying it to me. So I we spent three more years there. But it was hard repairing the damage done. Once you insult a person, it's hard to go around and go, "I'm sorry. Let's talk again because I've already made it a war." And so in fact later after we had left there, eight years later, Don and I went back to that island and I looked for as many people as I could find that I had met with and apologized to them. And I said, "Things I said to you were not correct, and I apologize." They were said with pride. They were not said because the spirit of God asked me to say them. They were said because I was trying to prove I was smart and I apologize. And some of them received that ap. They were shocked. You came all the way back here to say you were sorry. I didn't know Americans do that. And some of them said, "We don't care. We're never talking to you again." Okay. and a few of them had become Christ followers in spite of it was like God you still did it in spite of me and he's like yeah you're not going to stop me even you oh my gosh but he wanted he wanted me to know how he works not just in out here but in me and so one thing I learned you know, being on trial in a on an island that with back before there's internet, there's nothing to make a phone call. We had to like call the operator and make an appointment. Like there was no contact with anyone and you're going to prison for 10 years and no one knows. I called the state department. They're like, "Good luck." That's all they said. And um and so you're just you the belief is like we are completely powerless and alone here. Like even God can't do anything here, right? Like God's really strong and in the Midwest and the South. That's it. I mean, there you go beyond those regions, he weakens. You get to Europe, he used to be there. He's not there anymore. And man, you go into the Muslim world, he's never been and he's not going. That's like what we think. So like if you going over there, you're on your own. And so when you're in that situ, what the Lord wanted to teach me experientially was, I will never leave you nor forsake you. And there is nowhere you can go where I'm not with you and I don't need any people to defend you. I can do it. Once you believe that, you'll go anywhere. And that's what he wanted. But I've got to teach you experientially. You can't read it in a book. Can't read it in a Bible story. You got to go experience it because once you do, you become my witnesses.

So here's Acts. Look at this. Acts chapter 1. In the first book, O Theophilos, Luke writing, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach until the day when he was taken up after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself speaks through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs appearing to them during 40 days and speaking to them about the kingdom of God. The message that Jesus wants to communicate in his last days incarnate among the apostles is the kingdom of God. like not how to establish a new religion. No, it's the kingdom of God. In Mark chapter one, when he says this is the gospel of God, this is what he says. The time has come. The kingdom is here. It's his opening words and it's his final words is kingdom. The opening of the Bible when Moses is talking to the Israelites is kingdom rule. You are rulers and reigners in the kingdom that God has established on earth. And it ends in revelation with the kingdom. The kingdom of God is the meta narrative through the whole thing. And so the question is what is the kingdom of God and how do you enter the kingdom of God? And it is amazing. The whole thing is amazing. And and why do we pray, "Thy kingdom come now on earth as if it was in heaven, not in the future." Now, that's the prayer. Like, well, I'm waiting for the rapture. Then you don't get it. You do not get it. Right? So, the book of Exodus, I said the book of Exodus is not an evacuation plan. The book of Exodus is a transformation plan of how to get out from under empire and live kingdom. Now, that's what it's about. And that's why Jesus is baptized in the Jordan. He's reenacting Exodus. Only now the Exodus is I'm going to die to the old and rise to the new. When? Now. The old has passed away. The new has come. now. And then Paul talks about it. Like when does the Exodus occur for me? Every day because I am so used to living in the empire under the rules of the enemy that I have to I keep going back to it. Just I don't even think about it back in it. Money is the main thing. I'm worried about the future. I'm worried God's not in control. Back in Egypt in my brain, in my heart. Here we go. Exodus again. How many times will God lead you through the Exodus? Every time. Every time. Want to do the Exodus again? Yes, we just did it at 9:30. I know. Let's do it again. If any man is Christ, he's new creation. Old things are passed away. Behold, the new has come. The new has come. Stop living like you're in the old.

So, the disciples, hilariously, my favorite people on the planet. It's about the verse four. And while and while staying with them, he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem. Don't go anywhere yet. But wait for the promise of the father which he said you heard from me for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the holy spirit. So don't go anywhere. Wait for the holy spirit to come and empower and direct and all the things the spirit does and lead you in all truth and point you towards Jesus and all the things the spirit does. The spirit critiques and energizes within you all the time. Anything prophetic in the Bible, the prophets themselves or the spirit or the the the the formula of prophetic is critique and energize. It's never just critique and it's never just energize. It's critique and energize. It's God's kindness energy that leads us to repentance, critique, critique, and energize. So the whole thing I go through in Lombok in the trial and everything is God critiquing me in his kindness and then coming out and being energized that even when you screw up at that level in a place where there's no one but you and Donna and your kids, I'm still with you and I can still run this whole thing. Even though there's not a single Christian in this place, it doesn't matter. That is reassuring. That is reassuring because we were like, we don't have any prayer support here. We just have God. Like these things hit you hard and you're like that is not a smart statement. Like and um so wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit. Six. So when they had come together, they asked him, here they are. They're so hilarious. He's just giving them all this a stunning information. And they say, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" They're like, "Okay, so you're talking about kingdom. So that means you're going to make Israel the kingdom and we're going to be in charge." Are you going to do that today? Is that what you're talking about? Like the is it now? Is the escaton now? Is the esquetology be is history ending at this point? which is what Paul thought when he was Saul of Tarsus that what would happen is that in his brand of Phariseeism they would meditate on the Ezekiel throne room of God. This is what happens to him on the Damascus road. And they believe that that they the highest level of meditation they would encounter God on the throne. History would end. They would be established as the leaders in the kingdom and his it would be over. And so, how shocked was Paul when he's on the road to Damascus? And the vision actually comes and he's like, "Here we go. I'm going to find out that I've been right the whole time. Everyone else has been wrong like I've been telling them the whole time. My team's going to win. They're all going to lose. And I'm going to be in charge." Go ahead, God. Who are you? Jesus. Like, that was a shocker. History is not ending. You are in fact wrong about everything that you believe. But fortunately, I forgive you. And there's a whole new plan. And it said he went blind. He went blind in every way you could go blind because everything he knew and understand stood about religion and history and esquetology was wrong. A lot of us are going to have that same blindness. So the disciples are like, I mean, is it ending? Is it here we go? Here we go. And what happens is we get consumed with the end. Like what happens in the end? What happens in the end? When is the end? We get consumed with it. You know why the enemy loves for us to be consumed with the end? Because we don't live in the present. We give up on the present. And that's what the enemy wants. Y'all just go over there and argue about what happens in the end. I mean, get in a good argument about it. Argue about how many days and what that means. Argue and I'll just take over your city while you do it and I'll run your schools. You guys try and figure out when the end is and I'll run your schools and I'll run your government. And Jesus is like, it's, look what he says. It's not for you to know. It's not for you to know times or seasons that the father has fixed by his own authority. Get out of the future. Now, back to the present. But in the present, you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, which is a place you don't want to go because you don't like those people. You're going to be my witnesses there. And even in way into the gentile world, which you guys call barbarians. That's what how they refer to gentile barbarians, the scourge of the earth. We're going there. We're all going there. You mean you're going to lead us to the table of our enemies? Yep. Have you not read the Psalms? I've been telling you this the whole time. It's the great mystery that the Gentiles are coming in. Even though you don't like them, they're coming in. And when you watch the in in Isaiah when you're watching the nations come in and God says I will glorify I will beautify my beautiful house with the nations and the nations start coming in. The first four nations that come in are the descendants of Ishmael before the descendants of Isaac the descendants of Ishmael come in. And God is beautifi. One of them is Yemen. Yemen. And he says, "I will my beautify my beautiful house with these nations, these ethnic, these families." I'm telling you, man, it's it's incredible. Wow. We read this so selectively. Don't do that. It's why we need the Holy Spirit. Okay. So, you're going to be my witnesses. And then he said these things as they were looking on. He was lifted up and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into the heaven, as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes and said, "Men of Galilee, why are you looking at the heavens?" Like, okay, forget we're done. They're like this. Ah, what are we going to call that? Let's call it the ascension. Let's argue about that, too. Let's argue. Okay, let's we let's line up the topics. We're going to argue about the end, the escaton esquetology. Let's call it esquetology. and we'll argue about when it is. And then where did he go? Let's argue about that. They're so distracted from the present tense. And so the angel like, "Men of Galilee, men of Galilee, why are you standing there looking up into the heaven? This Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven. Let's go. Let's be witnesses. Let's go. Pay attention in the present tense. Look around you. Let's go. How are you a witness? Where are you a witness? Let's go. Stop looking up there and looking into the future now. Present tense. Let's go. Witchita. It's our place. Who's your people? Let's go. I'm a teacher. Boom. Good. I'm a police officer. Fantastic. I'm a stay-at-home mom. I don't know what that is. Uh, it's a thing we made up. a stay-at-home mom. What is that? Are you locked in a house? No. Well, kind of. Uh, that's not an identity. That guy. Are are you discipling the next generation? Yeah. Well, say that. Say that. I'm discipling the next generation. That's one of the great Wow. You got the heavy lift then. You got the heavy lift. Okay. That's your people. This is your time. Let's go. Who's my people? Where's my place? Who's my people? Where's my place? What are you doing? Bringing the kingdom into this people in this place because I've witnessed it myself.

So our our four or five years our first four or five years in Indonesia was God saying that's not the way to do that and that's not the way to do that and like what happened what happened when you were a police officer you knew how to do this stuff. What happened? I went to seminary. Yeah, I know. And in seminary, I started looking up at heaven like this and wondering about the end times and Calvinism and Armenianism. And I love just sitting around arguing about those things with people. And the angels are like, "Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, let's go to Indonesia." But what I went to Indonesia with was all kinds of head knowledge. And I let them have it, too. Wow. I let them have it. And they were so impressed. No, they weren't. They weren't at all. And it was a disaster. And I got in trouble. And God said, "You better say it a different way." What way? My way. My way. How did Jesus talk to people? Did he walk in and insult people, make fun of, mock their religions? Never. Paul says when he's in Ephesus and they arrest him because the idol guys are burning their idols and they're and he's ruining their econ. He's destroying their consumeristic economy is what he's doing. And that's why they're mad. That's why they want him stopped. You're taking away our income source. And so they drag him in and the magistrate listens to him. And he this is what the magistrate says to the people. These are guys are burning idols. He says, "This man is has in no way blasphemed our goddess." Because Paul doesn't go in to attack the goddess Athena. He doesn't care about that because once you lift Christ up, none of this makes any more sense. That's all. You know what? Athena worship was the predominant religion of the entire Roman Empire. The Christian movement happens and Athena worship although never vocally opposed by believers vanishes from the face of the earth. They didn't you don't have to go in there and sult people in what they believe. Just lift Christ up. It's so much greater and it's real. That's all. That's what you do, right? Do you understand that? Stop insulting people. Just lift Jesus up. We didn't know you could be whole. You can. You can be whole. We're afraid we don't have a go. There's no God. We make our own. We know it's called the economy and political parties and military and we have to have those gods cuz where is that one? But once they see him, oh, we don't need that, right? Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as in heaven right now.

And so when we moved, we we left Indonesia under very bad circumstances. Not wanted, not not the Indonesians were happy that we would never come back. Um and we were happy never to go back. But the problem was when we weren't there, we were dying inside because we were made to be there and our identity couldn't function outside of the vocation that God had for us. and he wouldn't let us rest. Like, we're not done. That was just you learning. Failure is learning. Failure is learning. Stop calling yourselves failure. We're going back. And so, eventually, we end up back in there back in Indonesia and different, changed, humbled, saying to God, "What do you want me to know? And what do you want me to do? What do you want me to say to this person?" And we go back in back into the education field working in an international school. And two of my students, the ones I during the weekend I was talking about my students learning their identity and all that stuff. And two girls in my class, one Australian and one American, their their fathers were missionaries. So it was an international school, lots of different most of our students parents were oil industry people, but there were missionary kids in there. And these two girls, they were 10th graders, would be talking about their dads, and I'd hear them in the hallway. And the Australian girl would say, "Where where's your dad this week?" And the American would say, "He's up in the islands out in the the islands of Indonesia." And he what's he doing there? Another whole village came to faith. The mosque and everyone, all of them have come to faith. And the other girl is like, "Oh, another one. Here, here's something. Here's things I've words I've never heard together in a sentence. Another village and the mosque have come to faith. Not one. Wow. Amazing. Another. And two 10th grade girls that think that's normal. And I'm like, "Wow, what? I never heard that before." And the Lord's like, "I know." So I asked this American girl, "Can I meet your dad?" And she's like, "I don't know if he's going to want to meet you." And I know, jeez. Like, Lord, I'm trying to do the humble thing, but like, wow. And so, finally, I meet him. I meet him. McCullum, Dave McCullum, and uh and I ask him, you know, I mean, here all the the Muslims talk about him like he's the greatest person they've ever met. They called him Nasarani, which is a Quranic word that means a person who knows God, but they're not Muslim. It's a very high honor term for a non-Muslim. I've never heard a foreigner called that, but they called him that. Nasarani. Wow. You know, Nasarani. Yeah, it's that guy. And so I meet him and uh he's a super funny, hilarious guy. Loves life. He's just one of those guys, man. He just thinks everything's hilarious and life is to be lived. And we'd be like laying on a beach in some island and there's no people around and the water's crystal blue and he's laying on his back going, "God, whatever you do, don't send me to the mission field."

So we ne we would never be in this place if we didn't know God, this beauty." And and so I I meet him and I say to him, you know, is this true? You know, you're and he's like, he's not he's not me. I have a great team. Um I said, would you mentor me? And he said, oh no, no way. And I said, 'Why not?' And he goes, I don't want to waste my time with you. That this is like, have you do you not know about like Paul, Timothy, like disciplehip programs? You know, have you never heard of that? You don't want to waste time with me? He goes, "Yeah, I'm not here for you. I'm here for Muslims. I'm not here to tell argue with some American about evangelism strategy. I don't have time for that. I'm here for the Muslim people. I don't care what you think about it." Now I really want him to mentor me. I'm like, "Please mentor me." Four times I have to ask him. I mean, not I have to go back to him four times to get him to mentor me. And he says, he goes, "All right, I'll think about it." But he said, "Have you been fired from three jobs?" And I said, "I have." And he said, "Okay, you're qualified then to be mentored by me." Do you know why he said that? Cuz he wants humble people. He said, "What happened in your Where were you before I was in Lumbok?" He said, "That's a tough place. What happened? I got arrested." Okay. Yeah, you're perfect. Okay, come on. You know what doesn't work good. And so, four years I spent with him. So, in this last couple minutes here, I want to tell you what he did to me. Like, it was so I'm so happy to meet people like this in the world. This be and I had to go 10,000 miles to meet this guy and go through five years of horrible failure. So God would say to me, "Okay, now you're ready to receive. Now you can receive. Are you done?" "Yes, I'm done. Okay, now I can teach you something. I want you to meet this guy." And so I Oh boy, the antics of Dave McCullum unbelievable. But so he says to me one day, I said, "Okay, we can you just like I know I I saw he took me to a mosque with I don't know two two 300 Sundanese Muslim men in it." He goes, "Have you ever been in a mosque?" "No. He goes, "You're in the most populous Muslim country in the world and you never been in a mosque?" "No." "Why not?" "I heard demons can jump on you if you go in a m" He's like," he said, "what are you, independent Baptist or something?" Like, I'm like, "Well, uh" he goes, "Oh my gosh." He goes, "We're going to a mosque." So, so I pour holy water all over myself and we go into the m and he goes, this is how he always talk to me. He goes, "Sit in the back and just don't say any. Don't even talk to people. Please just sit there. Sit in the back." He goes up. They all know him. Sundines are hardcore Muslims and and they're like, they call him Dave, you know, he's friends with all of them. He sits up there with them. the imam comes out and starts speaking. So at that point my Indonesian was like 70%. And so I'm listening to the imam speak and I'm like what in the world is he saying? It sounds like he's preaching from the gospel of like Matthew and keeps going keeps going and the whole time he's like talking about Christ. And then when it's over, you know, and then Dave comes out and I'm like, because Dave's fluent in all the tribal languages and everything, I'm like, "Was that a gospel presentation?" He said, "What what do you think it would be?" Like he I said, "Are these guys believers?" He said, "Not all of them. 80% of them are followers of Christ." Like why are they in a mosque? He said, "It's their place." He said when Jesus when Peter and John walk into the temple with the lame man who's been made well the temple is the most corrupt place. It's the place that murdered Jesus. But they still went. Why? It's their place. They're Jews. Where are they going to go?

To an independent Baptist church? They hadn't built one yet there. Like it's their place. Where else are they? It's their community. If they're going to go win their community, there they all are sitting right there. Why wouldn't they go in there? And that's what they do. And they lead those men to Christ and that place is transformed.

If you pull them out and put them over there, you start a war. But in here, you like, "Haven't you read about the Samaritan woman? Haven't you read the Gospels?" And I'm like, "I'm not sure I want you to mentor me." He goes, "I'm not sure I want to mentor you."

Anyway, so he says to me, he says to me, "Okay, look here. I'm going to try and teach you how to do this." I'm like, "Okay." He said, "Do you have any Muslim friends?" So, we're in the most populous Muslim country in the world. I teach in a school with lots of Muslim students in a city of 5 million people. Do you have any Muslim friends? And my answer is no. He's like, "Oh my."

He goes, "Okay, this is going to be really complicated, but here's step number one. Make friends with a Muslim." I'm like, "Okay, all right." He goes, "Now, let me tell you what kind of Muslim to make friends with. Find a Muslim that loves Islam more than life itself." I'm like, "What?" And make sure he's been on the Hajj to Mecca at least once, preferably twice. Why? And make sure he's so rich he would never meet with you that he doesn't need anything from you. Okay. Yeah. Make sure he loves Islam more than life. That's it. Find that guy. Make a friend with him. Ask him to study the holy books with you and I'll lead it. Go find him and make friends with him. I'm like, you're asking me to locate the most resistant, rich, we don't like Americans guy I can find, right? I said, because if you just get some disenfranchised Muslim that hates Islam, that's low-level fruit and it's great, but I want to teach you how to win Saul of Tarsus because if you win Saul of Tarsus, you'll get this whole place. I don't want I don't want to win all of Tarsus. I want it easy.

So I say, "Okay, Lord, where is that guy?" Said wasn't hard to find in our school. Is a guy um his son, two of his kids, three of his kids are in our school. I meet him. He's a Malaysian guy. Hugely rich. Went to school in the US. Um been to Mecca a million times. Loves Islam more than life itself. I meet him. I'm talking with him. I'm I said, "Hey, um we're going to do a study of the holy books." Just called it that the and um and I have a friend that's well known. Here's your friend. I tell him, he's like, "Yeah, I've heard of him." I said, "We're going to study the holy books. Can you would you come and be a part of that with me?" And he said, "I'd love to." And I was like, "You would? You would?" And he was like, "Yeah, I would love to." Okay.

So, I call him a call. I'm like, "I I got one." He's like, "What? Don't talk like that. You got one." Like, don't say that. It's a human being. You didn't get one. We got one of them. So, yeah. Here we go. I want to finish this. So, stop slowing me down, you guys. I'm trying to get through this.

So, uh, so I, so I Dave says, "Okay, meet with me. Let's meet him in the lobby of this really luxurious hotel because he's wealthy and he doesn't even want to come in your neighborhood." But so, let's go to this hotel. Let's meet him there. And when we get so you and I will get there, and I'm telling you, he's going to come. He's going to have Quran. He's going to have taps. He's going to have the Hadith with them. He's going to be armed and he's smart and he knows and he loves his the holy books and so he's going to be ready. So, um when we get there, meet me there an hour before he gets there and I'll tell you what's going to happen. So, I'm all excited. I go McCollum's there and I sit down like, "Okay, what's the game plan?"

He goes, "Okay, first thing is you don't say one word the entire time. That's not crucial crucial step. You do not talk at all because you don't know what you're talking about. And he's gonna ask questions and you think you know what he means. You don't know what he means and you're gonna answer in a way that you think he understands. You're not going to understand. So you don't talk. Okay." And I'm like, "What kind of disciplehip program is this?" I don't talk. Yeah.

He goes, "Yeah." He goes, "And then so here's what's going to happen. We're going to start and in the first time together, he's going to agree that the Bible's not corrupt." And I'm like, "He is? Yeah. He's going to bring that up. We're going to get rid of that right away. Then next we're going to he we're going to talk about Jesus and he's going to agree immediately that Jesus is in fact the divine word of God that's come in the flesh. He is in the first Bible study. Yeah. And and I like, well, how is that? And see, he said, that's why you're not talking. See already. So that's what's going to happen. And at the end, he's going to want to go on all night. I'm going to cut it off right when he's the most interested because we want him to be hungry to come back again. He's going to want to keep going, but I'm going to cut it off and he will beg us to meet again. And I'm like, you're kidding.

He said, "Now, one other thing. I'm going to ask him. I'm going to hit him with a couple of hard kind of subjects for him, and it's going to embarrass him a little bit, and I don't want you there when that happens because it's dishonoring to him. And so, when I like tap your leg, I want you to go to the restroom." Like I can't see Jesus tapping one of the disciples at a critical moment saying, "Would you leave now?" And he said, "Jesus just left the whole group." That's what he did. He just walk away from the whole group. He would say, "Get in that boat. I'll meet you in the middle of the lake." That's what he would do. Um, so just do that.

So, okay, the guy comes, he's got all his books with him. Sits, he's got on his hat from being on the Hodgej. Sits down. He's a great guy. And um we get into it and McCollum he is a master and he he said this is the way we're going to go and we always just leave room for the spirit to adjust it but he choreographs it. It's so beautiful and strategic but then he lets the spirit I've never watched an artist like this. And then he and I was so I was leaning in and the Muslim guy both of us were just leaning in and we're just the Muslim guy's like that's in the in jail and I'm like that's in the in jail and Dave's like I'm okay all right and then he said and they were going into it and the guy's like so it's incorrect to think that the Bible's corrupt. Yes. And Jesus is really the divine Allah, the divine word of God. Yes. And the Muslim guy goes, "Wow, that's like that's difficult for me to hear." And Dave said, "I want to ask you a question." And he touches my leg. And I'm like, "Ah, can you excuse me? I got to go to the restroom." And so I leave. He did it to me three times in the meeting. And finally the Muslim guy when I come back he goes, "Are you you okay?" He's like, "Are you having stomach problems?" I'm like, "Yeah, I'm having stomach problems." Yes.

Anyway, at the 3 hours in, Dave's like, "I'm exhausted. I got to stop." And the Muslim guy like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. Let's go. Let's keep going. No, no, no. I got to stop. I got to stop right now. Um, and he goes, "Well, your friend is feeling sick, so well, let's stop, but can we meet again next week?" The Muslim guy says, "Can we meet again next week?" I tell our guys today, if you ever have to beg a Muslim to come meet with you, you're not sharing the kingdom with them. So, uh, but I learned it all. And so we go the next week, come back in, and we met for 14 months.

The guy would come in, the Muslim guy would come in. He comes in and he sits down and he looks at Dave and me and he says, he goes, "You know what happened to me this week?" He said, "I went home and it was like, you know, I have more than I have more than one wife. I have a second wife, but my first wife doesn't know it." But he goes, "I went home and I just felt like that was wrong." And so I got my wife and I confessed to her and apologized to her and said I was dishonoring her and I got rid of the other person. And um and I don't know, my wife wants to meet your wives because I I don't know how to like have love like romantic relationship and I want to know how to do it. And I I was like after it was over, that session was over, Dave got tired and shut it down finally. And I said, "You didn't say one word about marriage in the study." Not one word about it. What made him do that? And he said, "Who who do you think made him do that?" I'm like, "I don't know because you didn't do a marriage seminar." And he said, "The spirit did it." He said, "Didn't you go home from the study and get with Donna and tell her how much you love her and that if there's anything in between you, you wanted to make it right and you wanted to be more romantic because that's what I did after the Bible study, too. Didn't you do that?" And I was like, "No." He goes, "Are you being an Are you paying attention to the Bible study?" And I'm like, "Yeah."

Go through the next one. The next one he comes in, he The guy comes in, the Muslim comes in, he's the vice president of an American company in Indonesia. He comes, he says, "Dan," he goes, "You know what I did last week? I realized I'm a good successful boss. But now that I think about it with God in the spirit, I realized I'm not a good boss. So I told all my employees, I'm going to have a dinner and I'm going to invite them all, even the janitorial staff, which you do not do in that country. I'm bringing them all in and I'm going to cook for them and I'm going to go around and serve each one by myself on my knees. Even the janitors, will you guys come? But thank you for helping me understand that. He leaves. I'm like, "Did you do a talk on business while I was gone?" Like, how did he come up with that? And so he has a dinner at his house. And that's what he does. He cooks a goat. He gets down on the floor with the janitors who are horrified that he's in front of him and he feeds them. And he stands up and he announces to his whole company, "We're instituting a educational program for these people here. we're going to pay for all your kids' education and I'm going to put you into university or whatever we can do so that you can replace these. And he points to his executive staff. He goes, "So you can replace them because they don't get it." And these people start crying. It was like being with Jesus at a feast.

And then one day he doesn't come. He doesn't show up at the meeting in the month. and and his driver comes in and his driver hands me a present, two presents and Dave two presents and then the driver says he'll see you next week and he leaves and we sit down and open the presents. We're in the hotel and open and the first one is this beautiful silk shirt with gold buttons that you wear in Mecca and the other one is a Cuban cigar. So, uh Dave immediately fires up the cigar. He's leaning back. I'm like, "What does this mean?" And he goes, "He's telling us that he's in the kingdom, that he's made the decision." And I'm like, "How do you know?" He goes, "This is Cuban." Like, this shirt is the is the highest level of prayer shirt that he could wear. He's giving them to us in thanks for introducing him to the king. And I said, "I've never heard him say it." Dave got so mad at me. He goes, "What do you want him to do? Say a little prayer in front of you. Every week he walks in here more transformed. His marriage has been saved. He's transformed his company. What do you want him to do? Say a little prayer so you can write home and say, "You got him?" How dare you insult the process that God is doing, walking this guy into the kingdom. How dare you?

The next week, the guy comes back. I didn't think Dave was gonna invite me back, but he did. And the next week, the guy walks in and he goes, he sits down. He's all excited, the Muslim guy after 14 months. And he goes, "You know what I did last week? I resigned from my job." And Dave's like, "Way to go, man." Like, you resigned from your job. What are you doing? I'm moving my family to Saudi Arabia. Why? To do to them what you guys have done for me. They need to understand the kingdom in Jesus. And you've taken 14 months to love me like you have. Well, Dave has and now I'm moving my family to Saudi Arabia because that those people need Jesus. And I was like, we didn't have the missions conference yet. And he moved. And that guy today has led more Muslims to faith than anyone I know. And and yeah, and he has never set foot in a church ever in his life. And when when he talks about it, he always says, "Jamie, you go to your people and I'll go to my people and we'll rejoice in heaven together." That's what he says. Yeah.

Who are your people? Who are your people? And what experiential relationship are you in with God where you sit with him and go, "You know what I did last week? You know what happened to me last week?" And then you do it. That's a witness. That's a witness.

Father, thank you for that man. His wife came to faith really quick. His sons, his his entire work. God, no Christian will ever know of him because he's not in our world, but he is in his world and he's in the place where you had him born in the family where you had him born. And he has led those people into the kingdom because they are his people and his family. And when in Isaiah the nations come in, his people will come in and you will beautify your beautiful house with his family and with our families. And Lord, make me a witness. I pray to God, make me a witness. Empower me in Jesus name. Amen. Amen.