Pavel Tsatsouline: The Correct Way to Build Strength, Endurance & Flexibility at Any Age

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Pavel Tsatsouline. Pavel Tsatsouline is considered one of the premier strength training and fitness coaches in the world. He has pioneered the development of various programs to improve strength, which he calls the mother of all fitness. Indeed, today you will learn about strength as a practice, as a skill that can be applied to sports, that can be applied to general fitness, to getting leaner, to getting faster, and to improving your endurance.

As Pavel Tsatsouline explains, by building one's strength through bodyweight exercises, free weight exercises, and occasionally machines, one can develop incredible levels of fitness at any age. We discussed some of the spectacular examples of people in their 70s and 80s performing strength feats like 100 pull-ups per week. And we emphasize that one does not have to be seeking hypertrophy, one does not have to be seeking getting larger muscles, in order to get exceptionally strong. I myself these days am focusing primarily on trying to get stronger and build endurance for the sake of health and for general life reasons, and because getting really strong turns out to be very beneficial in every aspect of life.

Today, you're going to learn how to get extremely strong. You can add muscle if you want, in parallel with that, or as Pavel Tsatsouline explains, you can pursue strength and flexibility for their own sake, and there's tremendous value in doing so. So today's discussion pertains to women, to men, and frankly, to people of all ages. I do think that pursuing strength as its own thing, independent of muscle growth, right, which we hear so much about these days, everyone wants hypertrophy, grow muscle, this and that. Pursuing strength as its own thing is a tremendously valuable endeavor. Today, you're going to learn how from the world's premier expert on this topic. You're in for a very special episode with Pavel Tsatsouline. He is truly in a class all his own when it comes to fitness and strength training.

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Pavel Tsatsouline.

Pavel, welcome. Andrew, uh, pleasure to be on your podcast. I respect your work a lot. Thank you. Likewise. Thank you. I will say that you, and perhaps one other person, have truly changed the way that I think about fitness, the way that I train, and I'm super excited to talk to you today. So, I'm withholding excitement. There are a bunch of different ways to think about this thing that we call fitness: strength, endurance, hypertrophy. And there's so much information out there now. How do you conceptualize fitness? Meaning, do you look at things through the lens of, are we focused on nervous system, bone, connective tissue, or muscle? Do you look at things through the lens of anterior chain, posterior chain, hypertrophy, strength? I would just like to get your sort of high-level conceptualization of this thing that we call fitness, with the idea in mind that most people would like to have some level of endurance, some level of strength, and feel healthy, and presumably look however they want to look. But let's set aesthetics aside for the moment. How do you think about this thing we call fitness?

Well, first of all, Andrew, is, uh, strength is the mother, mother quality of all the other qualities. So, this is, again, it's a statement by Professor Yuri Verkhoshansky, going way back. And without a foundation of strength, you cannot build anything. So, any athletic event requires a base of strength. Of course, that, uh, shot putter is going to need much more strength than a triathlon, uh, triathlon athlete, but they all need strength. Speaking of which, uh, in triathlon, in marathon running, in distance, uh, in cycling, it's been proven that putting athletes on a heavy, low-repetition strength regimen, the kind that doesn't really add muscle, but just makes you stronger neurologically, and, uh, it makes them race faster. So, once you're stronger, everything becomes easier. How much stronger you need to get, that will vary. In the Soviet Union, they had something called the model athlete. So, they figured out that for every particular event, uh, your odds of succeeding are going to be much higher if you're able to, you know, squat this much, or bench this much, and jump this high, and so on and so forth. And this is easy enough to find these numbers for your individual sport and talk to various coaches. For people who are not competitive athletes, who just want to enjoy life, you just need to think about, uh, having a reserve of strength for whatever it is that you might do. So, look at some PT standards, and let's say in the military or in law enforcement, and possibly apply them to yourself. I don't want to impose my set of standards because there are many different. Like, I might prefer, you know, pull-ups and X and Y and Z. But if we're looking at strength as the foundation for general physical preparation, right? So, there's such a thing as general strength preparation. That's part of that. There's also, you know, special strength, which is sport-specific work. That's different. And, uh, there are different ways of getting this done. But as you and I know, that, uh, certain exercises are going to have a great carryover outside these particular exercises. So, as long as you're mobile, as long as you're symmetrical, and those are the things you have to address first. You need to look into work of, uh, Gray Cook, for example. Then strength has to be your priority. Once you have reached a certain level of strength that's appropriate for your sport or appropriate for your lifestyle, at that point, you can just maintain it and focus on other qualities. So, I will, uh, give you an example. Soviet scientists researched in the 70s. They observed, they measured a number of athletes in 20 different sports, athletes of different levels. So, they evaluated various qualities. One was absolute strength, and another was rate of force development, pretty much power. And the third was, is the rate of muscular relaxation, so how quickly the muscle can relax after contraction, which is very, very important. And they have found that, uh, strength grew just very little from the intermediate level to the advanced level. There's not a lot of improvement. Power increased a little bit more, but the speed of relaxation just, just shot up as the athlete became more advanced. So, it's again, so strength, it is the modifiable quality. But that's not the end all for everybody. So, reach the level that is appropriate for your sport or activity, then just maintain it efficiently and, uh, focus on something else. If we talk about strength, if we talk about other qualities, well, we'll get to them later.

What movements do you believe, if they exist, all people should include in their weekly routine someplace when thinking about how to develop, perhaps maintain, but but for most people, it's going to be the goal of still achieving some strength. Excuse me, strength increase.

I think there has to be a very low quantity of exercises, just very few exercises you want to focus on. And, uh, I'm going to give you some options to choose from. So, what we try to do at StrongFirst, in my company, my school of strength, is we try to provide people with various simple, very low-tech, high-concept ways of addressing reaching their needs. Because for one reason or another, for this individual, the barbell is the preferred tool. For another, it's the kettlebell, or bodyweight, or some, or something else. So, I'm not going to say that if you don't do kettlebell swings or barbell squats, you'll never amount to anything. That's just not true. But you can pick some, you can pick some events. So, you definitely ought to do something for a posterior chain. You absolutely do. If we are looking at, uh, at the barbell, I would start out with the narrow sumo deadlift. So, this is narrow grip, but not narrow grip, pardon me, but your stance is just wide enough to let your arms through. Uh, your arms stay parallel to each other. And, so, you just find a very comfortable stance for yourself. So, Professor Mill has been on your podcast, he explained to you about the, you know, different hip architecture and so on. So, you have to find whatever works, whatever works for you. And when people talk about functional strength training, and then they start standing on a ball and juggling oranges, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Because that doesn't look like my life or yours, probably. Right? But if you have to get a heavy bag of groceries or something, you got to deadlift. And the narrow sumo deadlift, so if you look at powerlifters, an example would be, classic example would be Ed Coan. That's a narrow stance sumo. I'm not talking about wide sumo, that's a very sport-specific event. And, uh, you practice that first. You learn how to hip hinge. It's extremely important to learn how to hip hinge. Again, Stuart McGill stressed how important it is for your back health and for your longevity. So, you learn to do that. Then, whether you decide to pursue deadlift or not, if you decide not to pursue high numbers in the deadlift, maybe it's not appropriate for you, or maybe you're liking the coaching. A fantastic exercise for everybody is a Zercher squat. So, in the Zercher squat, you hold the bar like this, in the crooks of your elbows. So, it's resting right here. It's possible to pick it up off the ground, but it's, you know, it's an advanced skill. That's it's an advanced skill. Better just to walk it off the rack. The advantage of the Zercher squat over, let's say, the back squat or the front squat is, even if you have messed up shoulders, wrists, elbows, you still can do that. Coaching, uh, the Zercher squat is very easy, very simple, and you have tremendous reflex of stabilization, uh, of your midsection. It's just very, very powerful. So, you acquire that skill of getting tight. So, getting high numbers on that exercise in the Zercher, so, let's say an athlete could shoot for double body weight. That's, that's a really good goal. And the bar, for those listening, not watching, is cradled in the, in the crooks of the elbows, in front of the body. Are the arms, uh, crossed? You can hold them like this, you can hold them like this, or different ways of holding them. You definitely would want to get proper coaching. You don't want to, you know, you don't want to bruise yourself. You want to be comfortable. You want to do it right. But it's not, doesn't take a lot of skill to do that. You find some pressing exercise. And again, if we're sticking with the example of the barbell, the bench press has gotten a better reputation, you know, thanks to the Gym Bros and, you know, all Gym Bros do is they bench pretty much. Well, these days, they also check out their phones, I guess, every set, between every set. The 11th rep, I joke, people checking their phones. Yeah, there we go. But if you look at athletes, they, athletes who also do some lower body work, some posterior chain work, and something for the midsection, and again, Zercher squat could address that. They are making a great use of the bench press. So, it's nothing, it's a very simple exercise. Well, not very simple, it's a relatively simple exercise. And, uh, unlike other pressing exercises, it allows you to make strength gains with a very low volume of training. So, you can do several sets of five, once a week, in the bench press, and keep getting stronger. Good luck doing that to the overhead press or the one-arm push-up or something like that. So, those are just a couple examples. Uh, there are many other examples. You can do snatch grip deadlifts. You can, list as very, very long. We can address the same thing in the same way with kettlebells. You can look in the bodyweight exercises. But you need to find several exercises that have a reputation for building strength that reaches beyond the ability to do this exercise. If you just do curls, you know, you're going to do, you're going to get better at curls, but not at much else. Canadian, uh, Canadian scientist back in the 80s, the Duell and his team made some interesting, uh, some interesting discoveries. And again, they just found that doing something like leg extension is not going to carry over to the squat. It's just not. The coordination is so radically different. So, you find several exercises that you enjoy, that don't hurt you, that you, uh, have the equipment available, that you got the proper coaching for, and you pretty much stick with them. And there's absolutely no reason for you to change these exercises. It's possible to change them on the margins, you know, from a wide grip bench press to narrow grip bench press, squats with a pause, and so on and so forth. But you don't really have to do, uh, a great variety of things. Variety, it's a good topic. We can discuss this later. But, uh, like looking at the example of weightlifting, as much as we can find many reasons why variety could be beneficial, improved neuroplasticity, reduced, uh, reduced risk of repetitive strain injury, and so on. But the, so did the statistics in weightlifting, there's no correlation between the number of exercises and the platform results. And for people outside the sports, it's going to be the same. So, find this limited, just limited battery of exercises that you can, ex, you can do well, you can do pain-free, and just enjoy them for years.

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Would a combination across the week of some sort of squat, let's say the Zercher squat, a, um, perhaps a kettlebell swing or something else for a posterior chain, pull-up, and dip be a fairly comprehensive program?

Absolutely. I'm a fan of dips. I like dips a lot. I heard you say that you, uh, were some years ago, you said that you were using dips for economy of time. Um, and I started getting into dips. I, um, haven't quite figured out the best way to load dips. Once, because once you get past 15, 20 repetitions of the bodyweight dip, it gets, I, it turns into something else. Sure. Absolutely. Uh, it turns into aerobic exercise, perhaps. 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Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou, uh, Lou,

Not explain that because in the 50s, the Soviets were very anti-hypertrophy. They were just doing doubles, triples, singles, pretty much. So if we look at what's going on, it's, uh, the Heian mechanisms. So pretty much every time that you activate a particular connection, synaptic connection, you know, between the neurons, that connection becomes, uh, stronger. So if you do it over and over and over. So "grease the groove" is the analogy. That command that's coming in from your brain to your muscles, that's the groove, that's that pathway. And the more you use it, pretty much the more grease it becomes. So it's like it becomes a superconductor. So in the future, you don't have to try as hard to lift the same amount of weight, or you can try the same amount and you can lift it harder. So we're not, we haven't even addressed the neural drive yet. We just pretty much made the motor neurons more responsive, more responsive to it. And, um, it's a very easy and very simple way to train, and, uh, strength comes very easily and very, very unexpectedly.

To make sure that it does happen, you have to address, uh, the issue of specificity. So specificity pretty much means, without getting too, too much into the weeds, to get stronger, first of all, you need to lift weights that are heavy enough. And, uh, if you're looking about percentages of one rep max, we're looking at like 75 to 85, typically. If you go too light, you don't make the impression on your nervous system, and it's just not specific enough. If you go too heavy, very quickly, you're just going to burn yourself out. And, uh, so pretty much like it's a weight that's heavy enough to respect and light enough not to fear. And second of all, and this is very surprising, is you only do about half or fewer reps that you possibly could do. So, for example, let's say that you're lifting 80% of your one rep max, and let's say that you're able to do eight reps maximum with it, that's your, that's, we're just fairly, fairly common. Well, you're only going to do about three, uh, three to four reps per set, and that's it. And the gym bros at this point go crazy, like, where's the intensity? Well, intensity and strength training is just how heavy the weight is. It has nothing to do with the, uh, and it's been proven over and over that that's much more important than how hard you're exerting yourself. There are times for that, there are absolute times for that, but if the weight is heavy enough, and if you have the repetitions that you possibly could do, you're going to get stronger. It's very safe, and you're not going to burn out psychologically, and it's also very easy on your body. So, um, also that builds muscle as well, purely because you're able to do a very high volume of work. I'm not able to explain the mechanism why it builds muscle, but as the Soviets found out in weightlifting research, there's a correlation between the volume and, uh, Robert Troman, between the volume and the hypertrophy. Everything else being equal, you're going to get bigger. So almost every day, you're doing the sets of three, four reps, maybe even five, and they start adding up. And before you know it, you're stronger, and at the same time, you have developed muscle.

So to summarize, "grease the groove" is you're trying to train, uh, moderately heavy as often as possible while staying as, staying as fresh as possible. And, uh, if you decide to do it in the gym, a very simple protocol would be a set every 10 minutes. It sounds really bizarre, like, why, why, why would you rest for so long? This apparently has to do with initial memory consolidation. There's so much that is still unknown. So we do know the "grease the groove" works great, but we speculate that some of it has to do with some of the same phenomena related to, uh, to learning in other fields. So if you're doing something over and over, like, like you're saying, 2 plus 2 is 4, 2 plus 2 is 4, you're just using your short-term memory, you're not memorizing anything. But if you say, 2 plus 2 is 4, you go get a coffee, you come back, and you try, 2 plus 2 is 4. So there's that desirable difficulty that you have in there, and you have to process that instead of just go through the groove that, uh, that apparently helps, helps this adaptation. So rest for at least 10 minutes, do sets of about the repetitions of half of what you're possibly able to do. And, you know, listen to your body. Typically train two, three days in a row, and then take a day off, but listen to your body. Incidentally, this "grease the groove" is the topic of, uh, my next book. I have completed it, it's not published yet. If, if you look at, uh, I can't pronounce the Hungarian professor's last name, Csikszentmihalyi. Thank you, thank you. I appreciate that. So he's talking about that perfect, uh, challenge, perfect practice lies in that channel between boredom and anxiety. So if you put yourself in that channel, and if you keep lifting these moderately heavy weights with a moderate effort over and over and over, you're going to get strong. That's one of the many ways to get stronger.

Are you doing anything in the, um, rest periods between these 10 minutes? So is it, uh, let's say, uh, bench press, wait 10 minutes till you bench press again, but in the meantime, you're doing Zercher squat 5 minutes after the first bench press? That's one of the ways to do that. You can do up to three exercises, three exercises at the same time. So let's say, like Zercher squat and the bench press and maybe a third thing. But I say those two are enough. And, uh, another option is you can do that, you can incorporate this into, if you do only one exercise, you can squeeze it into your lifestyle or your athletic practice. So, for example, in, uh, let's say you're teaching a track, uh, track, uh, practice or martial arts class, and every 10 minutes on the clock, you just have the class do, drop and do three hard, let's say, three one-arm push-ups, okay? And then get back to the class. So there's no interference whatsoever. In fact, it's better than no interference. Back in the 60s, Soviets found out something called the, uh, strength after-effect. So if you do strength work that's not exhaustive in nature and that's not novel to you, it has a tonic effect, uh, just for any, any, uh, anything that you can do with your brain or with your body, anything. So what they would even do, some coaches, they would do a sort of strength warm-up. Let's say they would, uh, warm up as usual for a track class, let's say track practice, then they would do, let's say, three sets of three of something like with 80% max, which is not much. And they start, they start their practice. Then the coach noticed that the athletes are starting to droop a little. He'll repeat that. You know, he might repeat that up to three times. So what you have is, by having this short, very small dose, like a nano-practice of strength, you rejuvenate yourself, and your productivity increases so much. So whether you want to just do the strength exercise, several of them in that one hour period, or whether you want to combine that with writing a great American novel, that's, you know, that's your business, I suppose.

If someone has access to the appropriate equipment at home, you could incorporate "grease the groove" into your entire day. That's ideal. Yes. And obviously, it's difficult with some equipment. But what you could do, you could use the heavy-duty grippers, you could do, uh, one-arm push-ups, you could, uh, uh, you could keep a kettlebell under your desk and do press it at, at every opportunity. And again, the idea is really just practice. You just try to hit it perfect, perfect rep. And notice that, uh, if you have some issues, if you're a warm-up dependent person for orthopedic issues, I'm talking about warm-up in the very much in the, uh, body, not the mind, in this particular case, then it might not be appropriate for you. Although, you know, with 10-minute rest, it might still be okay. But practicing a skill without the warm-up, that means rehearsal, is very powerful for improving that skill. People think they automatically equate performance with improvement with learning, but it's not so. Not at all. When you are doing something that's just out of the blue, it's, you know, the way a sniper would take a cold shot, that's so much harder because you have to produce that solution. Or maybe an example that's closer to most, uh, viewers, uh, you go to the driving range, you start hitting it, and like, wow, you, you're amazing. You just get yourself fine-tuned, you hit, you're perfect. Then, then you go and you play the game, and you cannot replicate that because suddenly different club, different topography, everything's different. And you didn't have the luxury of that tuning yourself up right there. So it feels, it doesn't feel like you're stronger, but you are going to get much stronger.

I've been eager to share with you some recent findings that are not my own, but that I think you might be curious about, and then I think most people hopefully will be curious about as well. It's not "greasing the groove" specifically, but it provides a, at least partial mechanistic understanding of how particular types of physical movement with this high motor neuron and attentional engagement can generate high levels of alertness that can be devoted to, as you say, writing the Great American novel. Perhaps, uh, there's a guy at the University of Pittsburgh named Peter Strick, who for the first time started to map the connections between the adrenals and the brain. And he was able to do this using some really cool technology. The basic takeaway is the following: adrenaline released from the adrenals, as, uh, some of the listeners may know, doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, but turns out it binds to receptors on the vagus, which then stimulates noradrenaline in the brain and provides this increase in alertness. So then the question is, how do you get your adrenals engaged? You know, we can sit here and we can, we can do a staring contest, which I'll lose, uh, for certain. But, you know, there are all sorts of psychological tools, we get, you know, caffeine, etc. There are all sorts of ways to, cold water. But it turns out what Peter found was that there are particular locations in the motor cortex that send a two, basically a two-synapse connection, disynaptic connection, directly to the adrenals. And the areas of motor cortex that engage the adrenals cause them to release adrenaline, but just by sheer movement of particular muscle groups, or the core, as you were talking about before, like bracing the core, causes the release of adrenaline, which then via the vagus, uh, causes the brainstem area, uh, to release noradrenaline, wake up the whole brain, essentially, increase learning and performance in anything. And as well, the stronger and stronger activation of the motor neurons, deliberate activation of the motor neurons, seems to engage adrenaline release. Now, to me, this was a wonderful way of, um, trying to persuade people that they have internal control over this thing that we call motivation. That movement itself can increase adrenaline, which can increase the tendency to want to move. As long as, again, you don't want to have too much adrenaline either, right? Right. And, and I'd like to talk about that, um, but I think I, and so many other people, were kind of raised and conditioned, at least in this country, to think, oh, if I want to increase my level of motivation, I need to like, um, I don't know, watch an inspiring video. That could be great. Or I can, uh, drink caffeine. And that, or an energy drink. And certainly that will do it. But to me, the, the discovery, uh, that particular movements and particular muscles being engaged in activity itself changes the neurochemical milieu, I mean, of course, it had to be right, it's a big duh. But I think that, um, anyway, I was excited to share with you, uh, these data. I didn't discover them, that is new to me. So I read "The Naked Warrior." I was closed when I read it, but it's a wonderful book because it talks about bodyweight, uh, only exercises and this concept of, for instance, like trying to crush, um, one's fist on, you know, making a really strong fist on the other side, and how that will increase your, uh, your gripping ability on the other side. This kind of thing. Yes. As you know, with your background in neuroscience, obviously, there are so many, uh, neurological phenomena. Like, if you can think of like muscle software that we have access to, that if we become conscious about accessing that, we can be so much stronger. Yeah.

So when you talk about, you know, doing a, a set of three or four repetitions or two to three repetitions at about 85% or 80% of one rep max, waiting 10 minutes, and then the intervening 10 minutes going and trying to learn something important or physical or cognitive, this makes perfect sense to me because of the relationship of adrenaline, but also the way that your tired nervous system has changed in the, in the intervening period. And plus, you have the contextual interference. So, one of the "grease the groove" is not something that I invented. It's something that I was able to codify and explain and possibly refine, but it's been around since the day of Ecclesiastes. And, uh, specifically in strength training, Paul Anderson. Paul Anderson, one of the greatest weightlifters of all time. He was, uh, he was a big favorite of the Soviet public, you know, very tough group to impress, but they called him "The Wonder of Nature." He was so strong. And Paul Anderson would do a set of squats, then he would wander around, drink some milk, half an hour later, do a set of presses, then go do this again. And so he, reinv, not, should say reinvent, no, he invented, without knowing neurons from Nyland, many of the training concepts are just cutting edge today. And again, so this concept of contextual interference, remember I talked earlier how if it's harder for you to produce a solution, if you're trying harder to remember 2 plus 2 is 4, or how to throw the ball, then you're going to learn more, as opposed to if somebody just hands it, "Oh, 2 plus 2 is 4." So Paul Anderson had both the spacing, time came like, so the, the groove has been forgotten in the sense of time, and the contextual interference. He did another exercise that erased whatever previous groove right there. And it's, uh, it's very fascinating how looking at some of these old-timers and just how, how genius they were. MH. Yeah, the unconscious genius aspect of it is, is so cool. And of course, I don't want to be disparaging of common, um, gym programs these days, but I do feel like the way that most people train, yeah, you'll do that, yeah. The way that most people train in terms of thinking, okay, I'm going to hit the gym, you know, three, four times a week, or I'm going to train chest one day and chest and biceps. While that has some value, I feel like, um, for creating all-around strength and hypertrophy, there's just such an incredible treasure trove of other things that you're sharing with us today that are just not discussed as much because people don't take the lens of the nervous system component.

One, one thing that I'd love to ask about the nervous system in terms of training adaptation and recovery is that I was weaned somewhat under the, uh, thought patterns of Mike Mentzer. This was in the Dorian Yates era. And I knew Mike a little bit. I paid for a consult with him over the phone. We never met in person. So that had my mother asking, you know, why is this grown man calling our home? And why are you wired? In the old days, you had to wire somebody money. I do. But it was so worthwhile because Mike taught me that the goal of training was to induce an adaptation. Anything additional was not necessary. And in his case, he felt was counterproductive. Very infrequent training, etc. And it worked tremendously well to take me from like 150 lbs to 210 lbs, which I had no need to do, but my body just reacted like crazy. But then again, I was 16, 17, and 18 years old in that time. Probably could have done any number of different things and experienced similar results. Who knows? But the concept, of course, is that you train to induce an adaptation, then you rest, and then you allow the adaptation to serve the, you know, moving higher poundages in good form, this sort of thing. The problem, however, is that, and Mentzer highlighted this, is that training of any kind, running, lifting, etc., taxes both the nervous system as a whole and the muscles locally and the connective tissue. How should we think about training and recovery? So when you describe "grease the groove," I could imagine if I had a home setup or I'm going to the the gym, I could maybe do four or five rounds of this training. But at some point, it becomes counterproductive. So, wow, a lot of great questions. I'm just trying to think about how to schedule this sort of thing, keeping in mind that the nervous system fatigues as a whole, and then there's also the issue of local muscle fatigue, or or even the propensity for injury if you just overdo it. Sure. Yeah. So if we could just riff on this, if you don't mind, Andrew, I'll break it up because a lot of great questions right there. So one, as you mentioned, there are different ways of training. And again, we, the "grease the groove" load parameters, apart from the long rests, are very much based on the Soviet weightlifting system. And I'd like to talk a little bit about that later. Another system that's completely and radically different, and it ties very much to Mike Mentzer's training, for reasons that will become obvious, is the classic American powerlifting system from the 80s. And when people argue about training methods, what they need to understand is, there are many ways to get the job done. You know, at his research in Estonia found because there are so many different combinations of stimuli and the different, different adaptations that result, you can arrive to similar outcomes in a lot of different ways. So to say this is right and this is wrong, you cannot sometimes do that. I mean, I can say most things are wrong, but I can also say there are multiple right ways of training, and they can be radically different, and they're different because they rely on very different phenomena. So in this particular case, you're talking about recovery and frequency, which is again, a great way to address it. I'm going to talk about two systems that are completely different, and yet have that same pedigree that they have brought so many gold medals. So one system is the Soviet weightlifting system, is again, where athletes would train several times a day. And the Bulgarian system is a more extreme example of that, and every day. And the other extreme would be the American powerlifting system, exemplified by, uh, Hassid, Marty Gallagher, Ed Coan, Kirk Karwoski. So starting from the 70s through the '90s, those are really glorious days for years of powerlifting. And in that system, they would pretty much do one or two heavy sets per lift, once a week. So it's kind of a little bit like Mike Mentzer's work, kind of, but not. But we'll, we'll address why. So how can that be, and how can both systems work? So you address the recovery. There's a concept called heterochronicity, which hetero means different, chronicity refers to time. So the different systems in the body to recover, recover at different rates. And if you don't take that into account, then, uh, you're going to have some serious problems. So the Soviet system took, uh, if you look at the Soviet system with frequent training, they looked at, okay, we want to do frequent practice, which is exactly what we do. We don't want to beat the muscles up so much that they, that takes some very long time to recover. You know, not too much eccentric stress, not too much acidosis, avoiding things like that. And they were able to adjust the loads in such a way. So let's say your weights are heavy, but not too heavy. The reps don't go too high, so you're able to recover pretty much, pretty much overnight. And the benefit of that is, it's been shown that if you fragment a given workload over more days, over more sessions, you get better results. And it's, your body is able, and your nervous system, endocrine system, your carcass, everything is able to handle much more if it's split into small doses. So let's use an example of a meal. Let's say if you're trying to, an eating competition, how much you can eat in 24 hours. So it's not like those Coney Island, you know, how many hot dogs you can eat in one sitting. No, but you would probably eat a lot more if you spread it throughout the day. And this is the same idea. So it's like that parable from Nim Talb about, uh, the king that got angry at his son, and he says he's going to crush him with a big rock. And he realized, well, what did I do? I don't want to kill this kid. But the king's word is the king's word, right? So he ordered his, uh, peons to break up the rock into pebbles and then just dump his pebbles on the kid. So that's the same idea. So fragmentation, the load, always allows you to do more and do it safer. So something else is related to that. In some training systems, some training systems rely on adaptations, let's say for strength, that go in the muscle, that go beyond just the contractile proteins, just, you know, the part, you know, my part that make, uh, that create force. So, for example, the Soviet system, they also tried to increase the storage of creatine phosphate, with which is the kind of immediate fuel for muscle contractions for this type of work, we're lifting heavy weights over and over. And so by training sometimes easier, you're able to keep stimulating that creatine phosphate adaptation, but without the, still allowing muscles to recover. So this kind of a dance, and it's fairly complex. Then on the other hand, the American system did something completely different. And, uh, the explanations for what happens in the muscle with this, within this American system, we don't know for sure. But there's a hypothesis by Russian specialist Vasa that seems quite credible. So here's, so again, the system, here's the system. You train hard, you do one hard set once a week or two hard sets. So the satellite cells, that are immature cells in the muscle, they're sitting there waiting to jump in, you know, if you need to replenish the messed-up ones. In order for the satellite cells to get their job done, they try to figure out, scientists try to figure out what sort of a stimuli are required. And one, they can make a strong case that a very particular damage to the microstructure of the muscle can provoke that stimulus. But that damage has to be very, very specific. If you beat up the muscle with a baseball bat, you're just going to get a whole lot of scar tissue, and, you know, some satellite cells will just die, and others will just become scar. But if the cross-bridges in the muscle, the cross-bridges is that part that does create force in the muscle, if they do tear in a very specific way, it seems to do the job. So the way the muscle contracts. So there is, imagine that you're rowing a boat on the water. So water is one proteins called actin, and myosin is the, the oars that are moving in there. So the oar dips into the water, hooks, and pulls. And that oar relies on available energy in the muscle. So these, ATP molecules of, you know, stored energy, they're floating around. And the myosin head needs that ATP in order to both to hook to produce force, but it also, it needs ATP to unhook as well. And it's in this, in between stage is called a rigor. So whenever the muscle has produced force, but there's not enough energy for it to relax. So the muscle is stuck in rigor. So think of rigor mortis. So if you tear a dead body's muscle, you know, it's going to tear. And supposedly this is going to happen only when you're able to, when the consumption of ATP is really high in the muscle, but the, but the supply is not. And so if you do that in the first, let's say, 20, 20, 30 seconds before acid does set in, that's what, that's what should happen. Because if you wait longer, when there's a lot of acid in the muscle, acid, uh, kills that reaction, that, uh, it kills that reaction that uses ATP, so you're not using as much anymore. Sure, the demand is down, the supply is down, but it's on demand, so it's not so good. So if you erase that fatigue point, so if you try to deplete that creatine phosphate, that kind of rocket fuel of the muscle, within about 20, 30 seconds, then presumably some of these hooks, some of these oars are going to get stuck, and when the muscle is lengthening, and they're going to tear. And that's a very specific tear. It doesn't happen in the outside of the muscle, it happens just on the inside in there. Whether this is true or not, I do not know. But it's a pretty good theory that does explain Mike Mentzer's method and explains the, uh, American powerlifting method. Interestingly, about about Mike Mentzer, and again, to the listeners who are not aware of the method, that means training muscle really hard, very infrequently, with very low volume. Professor Yuri Verkhoshansky, before he died, you know, famous Soviet sports scientist, known, known in the West mostly as the father of what is called plyometrics in the West, but he's also done many other things as well. He spoke very highly about Mentzer. He thought Mentzer was brilliant. Mentzer was an innovator. But many people, some people get good results from it, like you did, and a lot of people do not. And so pretty much what Verkhoshansky suggested might happen is eventually, you'll reach the limit of adaptation of how much you can deplete, how much you can deplete the creatine phosphate in that window. That's when you hit the wall. And this is where the American system comes in. This system is called cycling. The history of cycling is fascinating. The relationship, the interaction between the Soviet and American strength schools is absolutely fascinating. So just to go back for a minute, Soviet track athletes in the 50s were using the typical stupid high rep, high rep reps to burn. Then in, then in the late 50s, some very sharp young specialist, Vitaly Volkov, he made a case at a conference, what are we doing? Let's look at what he said. Let's look at Paul Anderson, D. Hepburn, Bruce Randall, these North American strength guys. Let's look what they're doing. They're lifting heavy stuff for sets of three to five reps. Let's knock this down. So off, Soviet track athletes started doing that right there. So this is how the Soviets, for example, learned from Americans. That's an example of how it went the other way. The classic periodization, as is known, periodization, in which you kind of start out with higher volume and less specific to lower, you know, to lower volume, more intensity, and so on. That periodization is not used by lifters in the Soviet Union. Lifters thought that's just completely not, it's just not usable, it's just inappropriate for their needs. Arad, the professor and Olympic champion, made a very strong case why. But Americans who got some limited information about it, American powerlifters, not weightlifters, were able to develop a training system based on that premise, something that the Soviets didn't do. And the way it worked is, is like this. You don't necessarily have very high volume, but you start. I'm going to give you the most classic example of this type of cycling. Again, this is again, Cassidy, Gallagher, Coan, and Karwoski. Four-week blocks. Let's say they're, there's like going to be three, four-week blocks, maybe four. So you do lift once a week. On week four, you go for a PR. Let's say this is a month of fives. This is on your week four, you're going to do a PR set of five. You plan for it. Week three is somewhere around your old PR. Week two is lighter. Week one is lighter still. Okay? And then after that, you may increase the weight, but still, relative effort is going to drop, and you're going to kind of repeat the process. So it does multiple things on the muscular level. What Verkhoshansky explained, you pretty much decondition yourself temporarily and you progressively increase that creatine phosphate use. So initially, when you decondition, it doesn't take as much to get the stimulus. You don't have to push really hard in the first week. You push harder in the second, and harder and harder. There's a concept, their concept in, uh, periodization. So sports science of reactivity versus resistance. Reactivity means how responsive your body is to the stimulus. And resistance, kind of like in medical terms, you know, how much it can, you know, it's, it's not affected by it. When you're starting light after a layoff, your reactivity is high and your resistance is low. It doesn't take much. So boom, suddenly you build this muscle. And then you can build it up. And when you reach, when you reach a peak, then you just, then you just, uh, step back again. And on the side of the nervous system and endocrine system, much later, Soviet research said you can train hard maximum two weeks out of four. That's it. More than that, you cannot handle. So for every month, you're training two weeks hard, the other ones you're cruising, you're not as hard, sometimes easy. Sometimes, uh, there are different ways of programming it. The typical one that you hear about in the West, as you're kind of building things up for three weeks and then down in four, it's one of about 16 different possible arrangements. Doesn't have to be. There can be, here's one brilliant way, Franco Columbu, who passed, unfortunately, was not just a great bodybuilder, he was a great chiropractor and great strength athlete, super strong, very strong and brilliant. So he told me about one his deadlift cycle. Week one moderate, week two heavy, week three moderate, week four very heavy. Again, this is a different way of arranging the same concept. And these American powerlifters were able to build a system that built the muscle, probably exactly in this manner. What was happening at the same time? Oh, yeah, and there's also another angle how that system possibly has worked. This is fascinating. Any type of exercise that you do makes your muscles more slow-twitch. It's just the way it is. It's very, very bizarre. Yeah, even explosive, even explosive, even just trying to crush the bar and drive the deadlift up, even that, the more you do it. So Goldspink's research back in the 80s, that any cycle of stretching or contraction resets the, uh, heavy chain myosin, you know, the contractile proteins that makes it towards slower time. So any type of work, if you do biopsy on somebody who is a couch potato, you're going to find that person probably has a higher concentration of white fibers than you and I. Wild, very counterintuitive, very counterintuitive. And so that's like a default setting for the fibers. However, if you take time off, it something changes. And it changes, it goes beyond the change. So this, this research came out of Sweden, I believe, when they trained a group of subjects in strength, they saw a predicted decrease in the ratio of type 2x fast fibers. Then they took a couple months off, and then they experienced, they called it MHC overshoot. MHC, myosin heavy chain, again, like fast fiber overshoot. So they had something like 70% more, uh, fibers after that. Wild. Nobody takes two, three months off these days. And but they figured out, Verkhoshansky figured out that is not needed for athletes because obviously you get deconditioned in other ways, right? So remember we're talking about heterochronicity, different processes take place at different rates. So it's like you're constantly playing whack-a-mole. So this is getting out of shape, but this is not recovered yet. It's, it's a game that's, that's a game of, uh, training programming. So in the American system, first of all, the infrequent training, it reduced the stimulus for the conversion of the fibers towards towards a slower isozyme, slower types. And the second, all the taper that they did later. So suddenly switching from fives to like one triple, one double for a few weeks. If you do that for just a few weeks, you're doing like a one triple, one double, you're not going to lose muscle mass because it really takes over a month. But there's enough time for the, uh, for the myosin to configure itself to a faster type. So that's probably what happens. Interesting. And neurologically, I think what happens probably they exerted themselves very strongly once, once or twice a month. So it's again, you know, neural drive, probably with strength and disinhibition and other things like that. And the irony is, the system has lost its popularity. Some records in deadlift, like Dan Austin's record, and possibly Lamar Gant, back in the 90s and 80s. There's, oh yeah, Lamar Gant, Lamar Gant is this, the strongest deadlifter pound for pound in history. Like 683 at 132 or something like that. And it was done back in the 80s. So he trained that way. Dan Austin and other lifts, records have increased in part because of the equipment changes and some other reasons. But at Cone dominated the platform for decades. So there are some great, great lifters who trained this way. But then the system lost its popularity for reasons that have nothing to do with its effectiveness. It doesn't mean it's appropriate for everybody, though. Because training a lift once a week for one or two sets, there's not much practice. And that's a problem. So unless you're training under a very high-level coach, or you're already coming in with great skills, it's really good. Second, if you need any kind of level of endurance, or if you're playing other sports, you're going to be very sore from this type of training. So it's a great system for certain types of people.

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Juve is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Juve products. Again, that's Juve, spelled J-U-V-E dot com/huberman to get up to $400 off based on what you just told us about Franco's training and the rest, it seems that shorter training cycles might be advantageous, even just conceptually and practically. Like, I've tended to break up my year into 12 to 16 week training cycles. Been doing that for a long time. And now that I'm 49, this is the year that I decided I was going to start modifying my training a bit because certain little things aren't working for me as well. Okay. Um, you might laugh. I'm actually curious whether or not you'll laugh or approve. Um, I switched at some point to, uh, using the belt squat. These belt squat platforms. I just feel like that. You may want to explain it. Yeah, the belt squat is essentially you stand on a platform. So you're on, uh, unfortunately, you're on display for everybody there, but that's not why I do it. You step up onto a platform. Sometimes it's called a pit shark. Rogue makes a belt squat. There are others, of course. Have no relation to any of those companies. And you wear a big thick, um, lifting belt, but it's kind of sagging in the front. And then you, uh, as if you were going to attach a weight to it, but you attach yourself to, usually it's a cable or a, um, or a lever between your legs. Sounds scary, but that lever or cable can drop below the level of the platform you're standing on, and you can load up quite, quite a bit of weight on this. What I love about it is, um, you can get, uh, very vertical if you want, or just a little bit of forward tilt because you can place your fingers on the on the handles. You can grip them if you like. The point being, there's a lot of degrees of freedom in terms of stance. And, um, I like that you're not loading the shoulders. True. I, I, you know, I don't want to sound like a wuss, but I'll do it. Um, you know, I, I moved from standard squats, back squats, to front squats, then to hack squats, and then now I've been, um, playing around a lot with, uh, the belt squat and really enjoying it because you can go really deep. You can blast out of the bottom position. You can load up lots of plates on there if you have the strength to do so without the feeling that you're just compressing your whole spine, or worrying about dropping the weight. So I'm enjoying working with it. I love your thoughts on belt squats. True. Um, but in general, I, I am hearing you and I'm thinking that moving away from this, uh, 12 to 16 week cycles is going to be advantageous because what I'm finding is that it's hard to account for life events in that way and plan training and travel and all this. But four weeks is kind of a manageable thing. This month, this is what I'm going to do. And of course, the months work together. The body doesn't know the difference between February and and March, as it were. Well, in California, it doesn't. Places it does. It does. Right. Exactly. The seasonal cycles are real elsewhere. Um, but I'm thinking shorter training cycles might be a, a strong conceptual and practical framework. Um, and, um, yeah, I'd love your thoughts on both of those. The belt squat, or a leg work that's non-spine compressing, and shorter training cycles as a general theme that people might think of incorporating into their training.

The belt squat and this leg work that's not spine compressing, I'm going to address healthy people like yourself. So if somebody has medical restrictions, you got to belt squat because the doctor says so, that's what you got to do. As long as you're also addressing the rest of your posterior chain, as long as you're training your lower back, your upper back, obviously your neck, which obviously you're doing that in some other manner. There's absolutely no problem with that. So let's say you're doing some shrug pulls or something, you got that taken care of, or you're doing some deadlifts. And also for powerlifters, what powerlifters do, it's a tactic. Is when you're training the same lift, especially if you train the same lift very frequently, there is always that that heterochronicity, something's not catching up quite as fast. So you're going deadlifting, and your hands are beat up, use straps, you know, or you come into the deadlifting, and your back feels like, well, it's time to deadlift, my back, my back is not quite ready. Well, you could go do a neuro-sumo or something like that. So there are ways of modifying things this way. So you're able to, if let's say you hit some hard deadlifts or hard squats, and you need some additional leg work, sure. You don't need any extra stimulation for your upper back and mid-back. However, if you are a person who has more of a minimalist, who does fewer exercises, then you just can't afford that because then you're going to have to do some additional exercises, you're going to do something else. So may I suggest for your listeners and viewers to do Zercher squats? Again, a fantastic exercise. It does not beat up your shoulders. It does not beat up your elbows or your wrists. It may leave some bruises, you know, but it's okay. You can live with that. And does that answer with the belt squat? Yeah. And by the way, machines in general, here's also a very interesting observation about machines. Machines are very useful for advanced trainees and fairly useless for beginners. Oh, I love that you said that. I barely touched machines early on in my training. I dare I say, call it a career, but I've been doing it for more than 30 years, so I'll call it a stage of, yeah, it's a decent run. But if you imagine, but imagine the scenarios, what people do, what do people do? Oh, it's safer. Get in, climb into this machine right there. You're not developing any stabilizers. So you get out of this machine, you get crushed somewhere. But on the other hand, if you are more, if you're more, uh, advanced lifter, so like, you know, Marty Gallagher, one of the top powerlifting coaches in the world, he might recommend leg presses in a very specific deadlift stance to a lifter. And this is going to increase strength on your leg drive without beating up your back. But you're already doing your deadlifts, you can definitely do that. So advanced lifters may make a good use of machines, and they don't need to be taught how to do that. They can figure it out. But beginners really should just use exclusively free weights. I'm not saying everybody should do squat, bench, deadlift, kettlebell snatch, and this and that. No, there's a large menu of exercises to choose from, but you got to choose just from that menu where you discover the weight that's free, that's truly, truly free. Should we move on to the cycle, shorter cycle? Yeah, the shorter cycle. A lot of it depends on the type of programming that you do. So the type of aggression that you use. So if I may, may I step to the side on that? So in strength training, you can look at the typical linear progression. We just progressively increase the weight. It only works for beginners, obviously. You look at the wave progression, where, you know, you're going up for a while, then backing off, and then going up again. And interestingly enough, in this classic American cycle, there's a wave there, even.

Though the weights keep going up every week, but if you, uh, if you did a set of five with 500 pounds on the fourth week of your fives, and then you went to 520 for a triple, 520 for a triple is a lot easier. So there's a D-load built in there, just people don't realize it. So it is a form of wave loading as well.

Then there's also the step loading. Step loading is a very interesting way of going about it, and I believe it's the preferred programming choice for do-it-yourself people who not necessarily aspire to records, but want to train in a very simple manner. And step loading pretty much means where you start out. It's kind of like reverse, think of George Costanza's approach to, uh, progressive overload, right? So it's like regressive overload. Do the opposite. Instead of starting light and going heavier, start fairly heavy and then stay with it, and then stay with it, and stay with that until it becomes fairly, fairly light. And then increase. In that case, you're staying this longer. So that's a good approach for less experienced people. More experienced, there are limitations. Advanced athletes run into limitations of this method.

And finally, there's variable overload, which is what's used in the Soviet weightlifting system and later in Russian powerlifting. And there's no progression there at all. It is just based on pure absurdity, irregularity. So it's like, imagine muscle confusion, but the smart kind, and nervous system confusion, where it loads whiplash like at least 20% every time in volume from session to session or week to week, and exercises are changed and so on. So there's no progression whatsoever.

So if you're using a fairly conventional linear or wave progression, the shortest cycle is generally a good idea, at least for older lifters. Like in, uh, using the American powerlifting experience, older lifters, uh, with came back at Ernie France, Rick Crane. Rick Crane, especially, who passed recently, unfortunately. So they were observing how an older lifter can't afford to start as light because he stops losing ground too much, and he can't afford to go as heavy as well, or not for long. So they pretty much switched to shorter cycles, something like eight-week cycles, even possibly six-week cycles. So it's, uh, it's a legit, it's a legit approach. But there are many different ways, obviously, because you're looking at the, at the big picture, you kind of have to look at it, uh, you know, from up close and from, and from afar. But overall, I'd say yes, if, uh, for older and more experienced lifters, it's a, it's a good idea.

Great. Most people, I think, who do resistance training these days, uh, would like to also have some degree of cardiovascular fitness. In fact, I think one of the great things that's happened in the last five to ten years is that most everybody, men, women, we can talk about kids and kid training, but, um, adult men and women thinking about muscle, the importance of having muscle and being strong in particular as part of their longevity and health. This is a great progression that's so very different than when I was growing up, where the only people, at least in American gyms, that lifted were preseason, uh, football players, bodybuilders, and maybe a few other, you know, uh, niche groups. But now things have really changed.

Earlier, we were talking about what, um, you know, why the Soviet system and, uh, training for strength is has been the tradition, and here why things are just so different in how we conceptualize resistance training. And I'll just go out on a limb and say what I believe and have thought for a long time, which is that what screwed up everything in terms of people's conceptualization about how to use resistance is bodybuilding. That, you know, I mean, no knock against people that want to make bigger muscles. That was a screw-up number one. Yeah, that was, yeah.

It seems to be that the idea is, you know, you go to the gym multiple times per week, you get a pump. I mean, the notion of the pump, like it always feels, it feels aversive to me. Not the pump itself, but when people talk about it, it just feels a little inappropriate. Like, "Let's get a pump." Like, it just feels weird when people say that. In any event, um, but this whole notion of just flushing the, the, uh, the muscle with blood and getting it to, you know, sure, you get some window into your potential future self if you go home and and eat a bunch of food and sleep. But somehow, it's so, um, unathletic, sure, in its approach. And I have friends who've done competitive bodybuilding and that sort of thing, not too many, but so I, I've have respect for the sport at some level. But I feel like the way it's spilled over into quote-unquote gym culture has, um, done equal harm and good. And, and what I like so much about your work is that it's really about strength as a skill, strength as an asset for longevity. Yeah.

Um, and I guess when I think about somebody who wants to be strong, somebody who wants to be healthy, I also have to ask, should people be training for strength and endurance? Like the two opposite ends of the spectrum? Because it seems to me that would be the answer. Great question. As opposed to what most people do, which is, "Hey, I'm going to go to the gym. Maybe I'll push a sled, and then I'll, I know, I'll do some kettlebell swings, and then I'll also do some pull-ups, and then I'm, you know, I'm going to like take a picture of my tricep in the mirror." I mean, it just seems like while it's better than doing nothing, yeah, it's clearly not making America that much healthier. Um, and I just think there's such a vast landscape of opportunity in training for strength and endurance, but they seem at such odds with one another for most people. So maybe we could just kind of throw up on the on the whiteboard here, this notion of training to get strong, strength as a skill, strength as something that's valuable for longevity. I think we touched on that a little bit earlier. And then endurance, the ability to carry two suitcases to the airplane without coughing up along at the end, also the ability to take a hike with your partner or your kids, maybe actually have a backpack on your back and not have to stop every fifty paces, just being a fit overall person. Which one, forgive me for the duration of this question, but when when travels to Europe, I haven't spent too much time in Eastern Europe, but when you get over to, uh, you know, Switzerland or Austria, you see people who are strong and they have endurance. I mean, I imagine a Sherpa is strong with endurance as well, right? By the way, Sherpas are really messed up. Their mitochondria are truly messed up. This is excessive hypoxia. It's very interesting. Their metabolism is quite severely anaerobic. It's very weird. Oh, weird. They're the markers of oxidative stress is is really, really high. But sorry, that's off-topic. No, no, we can touch on that because it's interesting. People who live at altitude, and up to a certain point, Denver is good. The Himalayas is not good. Okay. Well, yeah.

I have Scandinavian relatives and, and, um, you go to Denmark or Sweden or Norway, and you just look at these people, they're so healthy. Their posture is great. They're strong, and they're not spending a lot of time in gyms. Sometimes they are. So what's going on in terms of strength and endurance? And maybe how bodybuilding and this notion of building muscle has perhaps, um, caused some issues that we need to help people reconceptualize once again? Several great questions. Let's talk about bodybuilding. And then before getting to endurance, uh, what you said, it's, it's absolutely true. But I'd say that there are different types of bodybuilding. If you look at bodybuilding historically, it was guys were strong. I've had the honor of knowing some, uh, Golden Age Arab bodybuilders like Franco Columbu and Dave Draper and Clarence Bass, and these guys were formidable. They were not just, uh, pretty boys, they were absolutely extremely strong. So I think something happened in the culture where bodybuilders stopped, stopped valuing strength. Some bodybuilders, there's still, there's still a number of guys out there who are following traditional methods and are strong. Also, interestingly enough, the bro split, you know, hit once a muscle, a muscle once a week, it's not necessarily bad if you, again, follow more of an into this classic American powerlifting model. So instead of training three times a week, you train five. You know, in addition to your squat day, deadlift day, bench day, you can have shoulders day and arms day and whatever. But you go heavy. You know, look at Reg Park, you know, with his, uh, sets of five. And if you focus, if you emphasize this medium reps, and again, Soviets eventually came to the conclusion that, um, for strength, you should stick in the one to six repetition range, and you shouldn't do a lot of singles and doubles. Threes and fours should predominate, but fours and especially fives and sixes. This is where you get both hypertrophy and strength. That's that beautiful combination. And fives have a great tradition in American powerlifting as well. If you train with fives, you're going to get muscle, and you're going to get strength, and you're not going to complicate things. So there are some bodybuilders out there who train in this particular manner, and they're fantastically strong, just not many of them, unfortunately.

But I also would like to add that there's another influence that messed things up. I would take the bros of the '90s with a big bench press and the chicken legs to these guys who standing balls and juggle oranges and what, whatever the hell they're doing. I mean, this, the idea is, so there's the concept of neuroplasticity, which obviously you know so much more than I about. That's always throwing her out. Oh, you need variety. And so they throw every circus trick at the, uh, at these poor clients. And by, I use the word clients purposefully. Like at StrongFirst, at our school of strength, we have students because, uh, lot of clients. But in that world, they're definitely clients. Well, today you're going to stand on one foot, and then you're going to pull on this cable, and then tomorrow you're going to kneel and you're going to do this kind of thing. While asymmetrical loading and symmetry are absolutely something that's needed under certain conditions. You need to do it in a professional way. Like if you look at Gray Cook, Gray Cook will tell you, just get yourself symmetrical and start lifting, instead of resorting to this unlimited, what, uh, colleague of mine, Mark Rippetoe, called random acts of variety. So I'd say that's the other. There are way too many choices. And when there are no constraints, when everything's available, you go to a store, everything's available, you don't know what to pick, and you can't stick with that. So that's, that's a very big problem, I would say. So I would say the less time people spend on the internet, unless you know, you're looking up research papers or doing something else valuable, or fine, watching a good movie, that's all right. So unless you're looking up a research paper or watching a movie, forget about it. Or your podcast, or my website, that's it. The rest of it is off limits.

But strength and endurance, uh, endurance is a very broad term. And if we talk about, let's talk a little bit about training for athletes for endurance, and let's talk maybe a little bit for the general population, we're trying to do for health and again, for just going for a hike. So the endurance of being able to do a triathlon or swim a very long distance, the adaptations are primarily taking place in the slow fibers, and you have some very specific, uh, adaptations to the capillaries and the mitochondria. So many things, but in a very specific way. And that's not going to help you, let's say, if you're a fighter. It's happened over and over where a guy who's been a marathoner, he takes up MMA, MMA, and he starts getting gassed really rapidly because while he has, uh, his slow fibers can keep going forever, but not at the intensity that's required for this particular sport. So, and also, we're talking about there's endurance that's peripheral and central. So you're talking about obviously your heart, you're talking about your lungs, you're talking about the plumbing. But then you're also talking about the extraction and use of the oxygen, which is huge, and it's totally different. It can be trained with the same methods, but adaptations are very different. So then when people realize that, "Oh, let's start smoking these MMA guys, martial arts guys, and BJJ guys, let's just make them puke." And that's going to improve their endurance. And it does improve their endurance, but at a very high cost. So in the Soviet sport science, there's a term, the cost of adaptation, comes from Felix Me, Professor. He was well-regarded, a cardiomyopathy or, but later again, his research and stress is amazing. So there's the cost of adaptation. And it's the same thing as, uh, pretty much as buying, buying a car or table. You can get the same table for, for a lower price, or you can pay the top dollar. So you can increase your strength while at the same time blowing your back out, or you can increase your VO2 max while, uh, getting arrhythmia in the process, or you can do it in the healthy way. So one of the issues you have to look at the trying to lower the biological cost of the adaptation. So in strength training, we do that by very careful and not training hard too often. So again, the American system, it's two weeks out of four. The Soviet system, pretty much the same, although the planning, the planning is going to be different.

First, if we look at the cardiovascular adaptations, the, before, before we're looking into the, um, into the mitochondria and into the muscle, most of the work should be done below the threshold, pretty much. So what's the threshold? So for runners, let's say you're running and you, you're able to maintain a conversation. And when you start running too fast, and you cannot maintain the conversation, you pass the threshold. It's like you're going faster and you're breathing harder linearly, and suddenly it goes like this, like a hockey stick. So at that point, your body is no longer able to, uh, process all that acid, and, uh, things are starting to get hard. So there are certain implications. There are certain implications for your muscles, for sure. We'll discuss that in a few minutes. But for your heart, there are two things we're primarily trying to train. One, we're trying to train the stroke volume. So pretty much how much, uh, blood the heart can pump out with each contraction. And it's a very simple thing to do. You get up to like, um, you know, 70 to 70 to 85% of your maximal heart rate. So the heart starts stretching, literally. So, so this blood is incoming, and the heart starts stretching, and it requires volume. Some, uh, to marathon riders, they might throw the, throw the food in the back of the cycle, and they ride all day because that's what they've got to do. And that's requires that adaptation. For people who just do it for health, you don't need to do that much. You know, 30-40 minutes several times a week is enough. But for a high level, you have to stretch the heart. If you start redlining the heart rate, the heart starts twitching. So there's no time for it to, uh, to, to fully, to fully relax and stretch. You're no longer really increasing your stroke volume. And what you're doing right now, you're strengthening your ejection fraction, which is like the strength of the heart, which is needed for athletes whose sport requires redlining heart rate. You know, if you're a fighter, if you are a 400-meter runner, you absolutely need to do that. But what they found, it went back to German research, going back decades later, and then the Soviet research, if, um, you start redlining your heart rate before you have that volume that you put in and built up the stroke volume, you're just heading for pathology. So there are arrhythmias, there's all sorts of different things that that the AIBs, all sorts of things that can start happening that are bad. And also your performance is not going to be very high because again, your stroke volume is not there. And even for athletes who do that, they should do it for a very short period of time. It's just too stressful, and it's just not needed. Typically, it's a peak, it's a peaking phase for some weeks before leading up to the competition. So pretty much steady state, steady state, I, uh, exercise like riding a cycle or jogging or hiking, when you're still able to talk, it's the best, most efficient, and healthiest way to to promote that quality when you're increasing your heart stroke volume. If you decide to get a little more intense at some point, interval training is appropriate. But unfortunately, it's completely and totally messed up and misunderstood. It's like a catch-all term, high-intensity interval training. And Brent Rushall, a professor out of San Diego, said this is nonsense. This term is nonsense. What does it even mean? Like, what's high intensity? And also, here's a question, what does low-intensity interval training mean? Going back to taking a, taking a step to the side. But that's discussion will help us when we discuss what happens in the muscle.

Terminology. So there are different rest periods between sets. There is, uh, there is the ordinary rest period. So which means you pretty much recover your function. It's like you're just as strong or just as enduring as from the previous set. There is the, um, uh, supra-maximal rest period, when you, if you rest extra, sometimes you get some extra performance out of it. And there is this stress rest period, when the next set is going to be harder. Your performance may or may not be compromised, but it's going to be harder. So with ordinary stress, ordinary rest periods, that is called in track, is called repeat training. You know, so you run 100 meters, then you rest for, you know, whatever, 10, 15 minutes, as long as you need, longer possibly, then you repeat it again, and your performance stays this way. Interval training, again, it's established that just means that things are going to get worse from set to set. So that's the definition of interval training. The irony is, interval training was designed to increase the intensity of exercise while reducing the demands on the body. So if you look at the works of, work of, uh, Fox and Edwards, uh, their, uh, pioneers of interval training in the United States, they give some great examples. So let's say you're running for 30 seconds, and you're at this speed, and you're going to produce this much acid, and your heart rate is going to be this high. Well, if you run for 10 seconds with short periods in between at the same speed, you're going to produce a lot less acid, and your heart rate is not going to climb to the stratosphere. Here, and, uh, that type of training is very, very useful. And interval training can be used for promoting any type of adaptation. You can use it for, uh, hypertrophy. So here's, uh, here's one training method I learned from my colleague, Fabio Zonin. It was designed by Professor Mason, an Italian Mr. Universe. And Professor, okay, you take 80% of your 1RM max. So let's say, presumably, a max set of five, rest for 30 seconds, set of five, rest for 30 seconds. If you cannot do it anymore, you're done. And then you come back maybe 10 minutes later, do it again. That's an example of interval training. Again, I see. And you can structure interval training to, uh, for adaptations within the muscle, the mitochondria, and you can also do that for your heart. So here's how you do it for the heart. Today, there are a lot of fancy popular protocols, but all you have to do is go back to what the Germans did many decades ago. Here's the premise: your vegetative system, your heart, your lungs, your plumbing, they have inertia. So, for example, imagine yourself as a kid, you run really, really hard, you know, you run for, you know, 100 meters or something, or less, maybe, and everything's fine. And then you're talking to your body, and something you start sucking with. So that's an example of, uh, of this inertia. So if you get your heart rate up to about 85 to 90% of one rep max, and then you suddenly switch to jogging, you don't want to stop because that's just way too, way too hard for your heart without getting that venous return from muscles working. What happens is, uh, the heart slows down, but there's that blood keeps on moving, and the blood literally stretches the walls of the heart. I see. So sprint, perhaps, uh, 100, 200, 300, 400 meters, and then jog back. Traditionally, it was not quite a sprint. The duration would be typical 60 to 90 seconds, uh, the intensity is such that you get to top off at 85, 90% of your heart rate max, something like that. And then you jog until your heart rate goes, goes to about 60, 70%. So that's roughly about the same, probably. And, uh, to look things up, it's like German interval training that was done. It is based on very definite physiological events. Like this is what the heart does, this is what we're trying to do with the heart, and it's instead of inventing some things that are simply trash the body for no reason whatsoever.

And part of the problem also, Andrew, is it's very easy to get, uh, misled by quick gains. So, and it happens in the strength world and in the endurance world. Let's, uh, let's remember, uh, the years when you and I and every other male listener bench pressed their max once a week. MH. You're strong, next week you're stronger, third week you're stronger. Like you're doing the math, you're doing the math, like, okay, well, I should be setting the national record by Christmas and maybe be going to the worlds by by summer. And then at six weeks, you're done. And for experienced athletes, it happens sooner, like after three weeks. The same thing with endurance. When you start doing glycolytic work, when you start redlining heart rate and increasing the acids, your performance jumps so quickly. It's very contagious. It's like, oh, not contagious, pardon me, it's very exciting. And you think that you're going to keep going forever, but you really absolutely will not. So for, if you want to train for, if you want to train, uh, your heart, a good way of doing that is steady state work. If you decide to do some sort of intermittent, intermittent work, there are several different ways. One is, um, intermittent exercise that's more of a repeat in nature, not interval, which is very bizarre to people. Let's say that you go moderately hard, hard for 10 seconds, you go easy for 10 seconds, and you do this for 30 to 60 minutes. Imagine doing that. That's good work. It is good work. But you know what? To be shocking to you, that you're not going to produce that much acid, or you're not redlining your redline your heart rate. Better would be like, like 10 seconds of work, 20 seconds of rest. That, that would be a fascinating research that Swedes did back in the '50s and '60s on that. It's amazing. If you keep the work periods short, you're able to not produce a lot of acid, but just go very, very hard, and you're going to be able to, uh, train your heart and your lungs in this manner too. You can also do, and you also have peripheral adaptations in the muscles, mitochondria, and so on, vascular, some capillarization happening too. But, you know, it's also interesting, there's one particular type of, I hate the fact that it falls onto the high-intensity interval training umbrella, because it's not, because everything that sounds like HIIT, it's not good to me because it's just a made-up label. But there's one type of training that delivers great benefits to your, uh, cardiorespiratory system, and at the same time, it also does that for, you know, for your mitochondria, and even builds muscle in the same time. In track, it is called glycolytic power repeats. And in, uh, the last 20 years, there are several good papers that were done on that. Dyballa, Burgmaster, I think, pardon me if I'm mispronouncing their names. But pretty much, you do a Wingate, like a 30 seconds of hard exercise, followed by approximately five minutes of rest, and you repeat it several times. Here's what's unique about this, this type of method. It gets your heart rate up to about that 85, 85, 90% or something. Then you're going to walk it off after that. So you are going to get adaptations for your heart. It's not the most effective way, but it's, uh, for healthy people, it's a healthy way, and it's a very efficient way at the same time. We'll discuss later what happens at the mitochondria level. But also, what's interesting, you're also likely to get build some muscle as well. And, uh, typically, there is the conflict, which we're getting to this point about like strength versus endurance. Typically, there's the conflict of strength versus endurance because, you know, if you're looking in the, uh, mTOR on one side, AMPK on the other side, things seem to be like, okay, this is pulling one way, this is pulling the other way. But somehow, this particular load, while promoting peripheral and central endurance, also, endurance, at least in the fast, in the fast and intermediate fibers, also does promote muscle growth. Interesting. And what sort of exercise? This is not sprints. This would be kettlebell swings, for instance. In, in the studies that were done, they used Wingate, they used cycle, they cycled sprinting. If you are a, going uphill, you could certainly do that. This 30 seconds is hard, you're, you're pushing, you're pushing. Yeah. Uh, going in a track, it's too easy to get something messed up. So going uphill, you can do that. We do the, with kettlebells, we did this work in my first kettlebell school over 20 years ago, where we would do a set of, you take a heavy kettlebell, moderately heavy kettlebell, like, you know, for, you know, for you or me to be like a 70-pounder, and we would snatch it really hard for a set of 20, 25 reps, and then we just jog. The heart rate comes down, and then we take this leisurely powerlifting rest, and we're going to do it again. And it's a fantastic way to promote, uh, various, uh, aspects of fitness. So you're going to get cardiorespiratory endurance, you're going to have get peripheral adaptations, endurance in the muscle, and you're also building muscle at the same time. The reasons for that, here's the theory. Again, all we, all the conversations we have about this is what happens in the muscle. All these are theories. We, we know pretty much if we do X, we're going to get, you know, Z, whatever, or Y, some kind of result at this point, but we may not necessarily know for sure. So the following is another one of the theories, but it's another good, credible one. So this is Professor Victor Sanov. So according to him, the preconditions for muscle growth, in addition to the obvious, like food and food and things and hormones, so when you reach a certain level of acidosis, only a certain level, level of acidosis, it's not necessarily very high, that those hydrogen ions will make the membrane permeable to the hormones. So they're going to enter and go into the nucleus and start doing their job. So that's one of the part of the explanation. Then at the same time, also the free creatine, when creatine phosphate, that hot fuel gets burnt off, that's also anabolic for one reason or another. So there are some explanations, whether that's how it is or not, I don't know. But the fact is, doing a hard 30, 40-second set followed by a very generous rest, we're talking about 5, 10 minutes, and repeating it five times, possibly more, it, it works very, very well.

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What should I do during my rest periods? All right, well, first of all, whenever heart rate is high, the very first thing is to not to suddenly stop because, uh, you want to, uh, there are valves, one-way valves in the veins that whenever you contract the muscles of the legs, they help to milk the blood back through to the heart. So basically, they reduce the stress on the heart. So just walk it up first. The first step, if, if your heart rate was high, uh, then the second thing is you want to do exercises, you want to do relaxation, myo-relaxation, muscle relaxation exercises. What they are is, if you watch boxers, how they, you know, shake off their, shake off their shoulders and drop, drop their hands and do things like that. These exercises go back to the '30s. Soviets used them since the '30s, and they used them with elite athletes, kids in grade schools, and everybody. So these exercises serve several, uh, functions. One is, if you are doing an exercise that is strength exercise in nature, some of the cross-bridges are stuck, pretty much. And so your muscle is thick, atropic, it's like gel. So by moving your muscle in a passive manner, you get, you get it unstuck, and so you restore circulation, obviously. And, uh, the other reason is, again, control of muscular tension is very, very important. It's important to learn how to contract the muscle for strength. It's very important how to relax for, uh, speed, for endurance, just for a happy life. If you look at the best sprinters, note how relaxed their faces are, when they're on their jaws, relax, how relaxed their necks are. So relaxation is something that's practiced, just like tension. So regardless of what exercise that you just did, shaking off, we call this fast and loose drills, shaking like passive, like turn your muscles to fat. So you want to do this for a little bit. Then after that, it, it depends how long is your rest. So if you're taking a, and depends what exactly that you're doing. In some extreme examples, let's say that you're a sprinter. Let's remember we talked like doing sprint repeats with, let's say, 100 meters in 15 minutes. You think, wow, sounds like a great, great training session. Well, the problem is, these guys do need these 15 minutes to get the acid out of the system and have some other functions to recover. But after a couple minutes, the CNS excitability goes down. Mhm. So what the Soviets figured out back in the '40s still is, what you do then, after you walked it off, after you shook it off, you hear and there, you insert some very kind of like a light and easy hops or whatever, using the same muscle groups. So these poor athletes really have a complicated rest protocol. There's really no, no rest for the wicked. If you are a lifter who's taking very long rest periods in between, let's say you take those 10 minutes, then after your heart rate is down, and after you shook off, and after you walked to the loo, you can just sit down. You can do whatever you want. Do not sit a slouch, because obviously Stuart McGill explained why that's not a good idea. And speaking of slouching, one reason that runners get their backs jacked up after running or some endurance event is again, they go into their knees, and they, you know, get into that collapsed posture, and their discs are really pliable and warm after the run, and then suddenly put them into flexion, and they get messed up. So yeah, you also got to, like you point out, watch our posture. But you really got to watch your posture during recovery, because you slump between your sets of squats, and then, you know, you could blow something out right there.

Interesting. I used to think that I would, this recurring sort of lower back hip thing that I finally feel is under control. And I used to think that it correlated with travel and something about maybe not sleeping as well and traveling, perhaps. But what I've noticed is even if I just sit too much after training my legs hard, I end up with this back issue. So just moving to standing desk configuration after training legs, irrespective of travel, has really helped. And I think, um, I mean, nowadays, there's all this excitement about walking. I don't know if you, you know, I don't know how much time you spend on social media, but like walking is the new thing for 2024. You know, people discovered walking to lower, you know, post-meal blood glucose. I mean, all stuff that was great thing to do. Um, we'll see what happens in 2025, what the, what the new, and I'm, I'm a fan of walking. But, um, no small part because it just feels like it loosens up everything after training. And I like to train early in the day, if possible. And I know it's a, a dramatic reduction in kind of aches and, and strains as the thing you can do. I remember when I watched your podcast with, uh, Stu McGill, you mentioned that, um, upward-facing dog, cobra, or cobra helps you, right? Putting yourself in extension, into extension. So for people who, for whom that works, it's, uh, you can just lie on the, lie on the floor on your elbows and just read a book. So, for example, at StrongFirst, uh, courses, when people do exercise, and then we teach them, so we have several authorized postures. So you either have to sit ramrod straight, you know, you can sit in the lotus or seiza, or something like that, or you can, you know, half-kneel, still upright, or you can lie on your stomach. So we do not allow this, this collapsed posture, because this is a great, great way to get hurt. Plus, you know, you look like a slacker. When you're a slacker mentally, you're not going to be focused on whatever you're supposed to be doing. So I think that's, I think that's a good idea.

And to bring us back to, do you want to talk a little bit about the peripheral adaptations from endurance? Okay. And then maybe we can talk about like, what should people, uh, what should people do who are not athletes? So a much bigger thing than the VO2 max is the adaptations, the ability of your muscles to extract and use the oxygen. So this again, call this revolution, anti-glycolytic revolution, comes from also Yanski. Again, he's known as the father of plyometrics, but he's so much more than that. And back in 1980, he looked at the typical endurance training protocols and he says, okay, everything everybody's trying to push the athlete to the greatest degree of discomfort and make the athlete accustomed to that degree of discomfort. And he says that that's just wrong. Instead, we need to figure out how to postpone the fatigue and how to fight the mechanisms that produce the fatigue. And he says glycolysis, anaerobic glycolysis is the primary cause of that. We could split a lot of hairs whether it's, you know, it's the glycolysis itself, or it's, uh, the acid from coming from ATP breakdown, or whether it's, uh, inorganic phosphates, or whatever. But whatever it is, it always happens when the acidosis is running high, when acid becomes high. So that doesn't really matter which, which exact, uh, exact factor is. So he figured out, you need to promote aerobic metabolism in the working muscle fibers. So he decided that endurance training for, for high-level athletes, and people who are not athletes, it will apply to you as well, has to be specific. That's exactly why like that, uh, that marathon runner who joined the MMA class and then sucking wind, his endurance is totally not specific. Here's an example of, uh, specific endurance, where you're using the same muscle fibers that in your sport, and in the mode that's consistent with that sport. So Vasyliyants would have people like skiers, for example, do this very long push-off on the ski, and then glide, push-off and glide. And, uh, yeah, Sanov, who came after him. So an example of that, you have this really powerful contraction of the muscles that are used in your sport, and then there's that relaxation during which the muscle recovers. Is it myoglobin oxygen? That there's a small amount of oxygen in the muscle, and it requires that creatine phosphate fuel that is used for the short term. So pretty much instead of relying on that acid-producing metabolism, glycolytic metabolism, that you start using on one hand to use lifter metabolism, you know, creatine phosphate, that's what fuels, you know, a set of three reps. And on the other, using this marathon runner's aerobic metabolism. So you're like putting glycolysis in a vise. And a great example of that comes from, Vasyliyants is not the only one who came up with this idea, it's being reinvented by others. So in boxing, Leon Spinks, to the viewers who don't know who he is, Leon Spinks, a professional boxing world champion, and he defeated Muhammad Ali amongst others. So he's a great champion. And he hired, uh, Arthur Lydiard, who's a great running coach from New Zealand, to work in his conditioning. And Lydiard had him do work on the heavy bag for an hour and a half to two hours, non-stop. And he says, no, of course, you're not going all out, sometimes harder, but you're definitely not tapping the bag, you're not shadow boxing. And so if you're putting your muscle fibers in a very specific metabolic window, and do it over and over and over, that, uh, they start adapting to it. Fast fibers start developing mitochondria, fast fibers start developing capillaries, fast fibers don't lose their strength, but they start developing the plumbing and the ability to use the oxidative system to recover rapidly.

But going back to again, this larger periodization idea, is when you start with a new stimulus, it's, your body is highly reactive, but the resistance is low. You cannot take much of it. Then that teeter-totter goes the other way. You'll no longer, you have to figure out how to restore that reactivity. And different training systems do it differently. So an example of the American powerlifting system, you basically go, go lighter, start over with a lightweight. So you decondition yourself purposefully, like two steps forward, one step back. MH. And that's, uh, another example would be to use what, um, the Soviets called specialized variety. And this is something that you could see in the Soviet weightlifting system with Medvedyev and Alexeyev, one of the scientists and coaches, and also the Westside Barbell powerlifting club. So specialized variety, as opposed to random variety, is when you have the same lift, and with just very slight modifications. So the motor program, the intention stays the same. But again, imagine that instead of deadlifting, deadlifting from the platform, you're deadlifting standing on a, off a plate. MH. So it just slightly increased the range of motion, but you're still doing the same thing. Or imagine that you, uh, bring your grip in the bench press a couple of inches in. Or imagine that you use a block, just as a popular exercise in powerlifting. You put a, like imagine putting a brick on your chest, up to the size of a brick, lowering it to that, pausing, and pressing back to work that very specific sticking point. So you're still benching. So what you're doing is you're resolving this conflict between accommodation and specificity. And like, you on one hand, it's novel, but on the other hand, it's really, it's like same but different. It's a very good tactic. It requires, it requires, uh, the knowledge of, knowledge of the iron game. It's not some, because if you go from the bench press to the military press or dips, you might see improvement, but or might not, because that's not specialized variety anymore. But if you look at, like in Medvedyev, Alexeyev, when he coached the national team for the clean and jerk and snatch for the two competitive lifts, they had 100 variations. Wow. All these variations were like, okay, so now we're snatching from hang, now we're snatching from blocks, now we're jerking from the rack. Do you see what I mean? They all, this reminds me of, this reminds me of this humorous book about Scandinavians written by a Scandinavian explaining how very different different Scandinavians are. And so this book has pictures of the same guy wearing different sweaters. Sounds about right. So yeah, that's my Scandinavian relatives will chuckle at that.

I feel like one of the, again, I'm not trying to point out the ills of, of, uh, the fitness culture, but I feel like if I were to put up on a wall, uh, the two or three things that have caused the most confusion and, and, you know, reduction in people's potential results from fitness would be seeking the pump as its own thing, and seeking soreness as its own thing, and then confusing panting hard and sweating a lot with intensity. Yeah. You know, I feel like those three things, you know, people think, "I had a great workout," or "My new trainer is, you know, I finished just completely depleted." This, and then these are the same people that are complaining about an injury, or they quit, or they don't have the motivation because, you know, they're not taking whatever pre-workout as required to generate that kind of quote-unquote intensity. Um, I'm not looking for agreement, but would you agree or disagree? I mean, you know, and then maybe by comparison, we could sort of throw up on the wall the things that we should be seeking when we train, as opposed to these kind of, um, you know, before I answer this question, since we're talking about the peripheral adaptations, you made a great point about seeking pump. I'm going to give you a great example of how when not seeking pump is going to deliver great adaptation for you. So do you remember that idea of punching the bag for an hour, let's say, or two hours? That's how that promotes muscle endurance development in the fast-twitch fibers. That can also be done with strength exercises as well for wrestlers and MMA fighters. So you can do the bench press, you can do bench press and develop endurance in your fast-twitch fibers. The nature of endurance is very, very peculiar. You know, in, uh, team sports, there's a term, repeat sprint ability. So repeat sprint ability means that, let's say that you sprint for 20 meters, rest for less than a minute, sprint for another 20, you know, just something like that. So sprint, rest, sprint, rest, which is, which reflects the nature of, uh, team sport, football, soccer, and so on. On the, it's totally different from running 400 meters around the track. In strength endurance, it's the same thing. NFL combine, you know, that's it's a fine test, whatever it's nice, bodybuilding exercise, good pump, but on the field, you're not doing 30 reps, you're doing one rep, and then it'll be later, you're going to do another rep. So your conditioning for fast fibers can be structured in the same manner. So there's Russian research, researcher named Bikkin, he put his, several groups of athletes in different protocols. So one of them was doing the typical high-intensity, whatever circuit training, smoker, right? So you take 70% of your one rep max, and you do this for 30 seconds, and you go push hard, and then you do the next one, and very typical. Then the other group, anti-glycolytic group, the athletes would lift the same 70% one rep max for three reps. Uh, they do one exercise, second exercise, third.

Exercise rest for one minute. Do it again and again and again.

So, to the listener, a 70% rep max. An average athlete can probably crank out about 12 reps with it. A fighter is probably going to crank out 20 some reps with that easily. So they only do three reps. And so, three reps. Uh, another exercise, another exercise. Rest for one minute. Do it over and over and over.

And the end result was really fascinating. The outcome there is one particular test discovered by the same researcher that like correlated, has the highest correlation with competitive performance for MMA fighters. So this test was R 0.888. It's very, very high. And a very interesting thing. What it is, it's the rate of heart rate recovery after an all-out set was 70% one rep max deadlift. It's a hard set. It's brutal, very, very brutal. Interestingly enough, the reps was 70% one rep max correlation was not so good. Even the deadlift strength was not so high. But it's that recovery from that was was very, very high.

So the group that did the Santa glycolytic work, never did more than three reps, completely blew the traditional training group out of the water. Then, in addition to that, they were able to bang out a lot more consecutive reps as well. They weren't even in training for that. Then after that, they also saw competitive better results in competition and so on and so forth.

It's, uh, it's a great way to train because you're able to. So you take, imagine taking a weight that's that you can lift maybe, uh, 12 to 20 times, and you lift it about three times. Rest for a minute and do it again and again and again. This is very much like a blue-collar worker's, um, day. And you're not seeking pump whatsoever. But as a result, you're going to develop that that type of endurance, that repeat strength endurance that very much is applicable to most combat and team sports. And also for real life, whenever you are moving, uh, furniture. You're not trying to look, "I'm going to try to get a pump. Let's see. Get this piano up there." And I get another one. Then we're going to rest for 20 minutes. Then we're going to start over. No.

Swedish work, occupational strength. They found that old and crafty and wily workers, like loggers and others, they were able to like, they, they keep their efforts very brief and then they rest for a few seconds and do it over and over and over. So that intermittent nature of rest is, uh, is very powerful.

Seems like this is a repeating theme. And by the way, thank you for spelling that out. So for people that perhaps want to try something like this, and I intend to. Four exercises. Three, um, three exercises, excuse me, um, done each at roughly 70% of your one repetition maximum. So what you could do for about 12 repetitions, but you're only doing three repetitions. Rest a minute in between. Active again. Just walk around, shake it off, and do this for, do this about 15 times, possibly later. 15, 15 rounds, up to 15 rounds. Um, and so this could be, uh, Zercher squat, uh, pull-up, um, dip, um, deadlift, or something like that. Maybe going, not do the dead. You know, you use really good examples.

So this is, this is a protocol that I did for, for a couple of friends of mine for their high-level BJJ competition. We did exactly that. They did Zerchers. They did pull-ups on towels, and you know, more, more specific and more grip. And they did the close-grip bench press. And the reason it's close, it doesn't put on mass, but it, you know, works at triceps really quite nicely. But yeah, but you can even do it with one exercise. Three reps, rest for a minute. Three reps, rest for a minute. Uh, and so on.

How many times per week is one repeating that? Uh, you can repeat this three or four times a week easily. But it depends on what else you do. Twice a week is enough. Even twice a week is enough. And it fits your strength training regimen. It doesn't take away from your strength day. So it pretty much, you can treat that as your light day for strengths for the same lifts. Okay. So and this would, uh, is going to increase endurance. But is also going to increase strength somewhat. It's going to increase strength somewhat. In Bin's experiments, definitely did, at least on fighters. But realize, fighters typically are not that strong. So up to a point, up to a point, it is going to increase your strength as well. And it, the very least, is going to support your strength. And it's, uh, it's a great way to just perfect your technique, perfect your skill. It's wonderful. It's very, very meditative.

My colleague at Strong First, Brad Jones, he even just, uh, uh, wrote a book about it, "Iron Cardio." Because he took a protocol, strength aerobics protocol, like this Russian protocol developed by another one of my colleagues, Alexey. Another of our instructors. And he just used the whole system. And people are loving it. Because, sorry, I'm going to go back from the beginning to Alexey. So he's, um, he lives in France. And he was coaching some, he was coaching some, uh, uh, law enforcement. Some law enforcement personnel. And they were on a stakeout where they absolutely had no ability to train normally. And they wanted to do something, something effective. So he said, "Okay, take this kettlebell. And you keep it in your hotel room or wherever is your stakeout. Do one clean, one press, one front squat. Put the kettlebell down. Shake it off. One clean, one press, one squat. Put it down." And like a metronome, in a very rhythmical manner. You're not trying to breathe hard. You're not trying to get a pump. With singles, you won't. And you do this for, you do this for about, you know, 30 minutes, or whatever amount of time, amount of time that you do. And it does develop that repeat strength endurance fantastically well.

There's an additional secondary effect of some cardio because you're, you're breathing in between. Pretty much your recovery, your heart is recovering. And, um, you're not getting sore. Because you talked earlier about like people seeking pump and seeking soreness. One of the reasons soreness comes from is obviously, you know, a lot of eccentric contraction. That's very true. But what people don't realize is that soreness also comes from too much acid. In the past, the coaches used to tell, "Oh, you know, acid burns holes in your muscle." It doesn't. But what it does do is when the acid levels are high in the muscle, it stimulates production of free radicals, which pound the cellular membranes. Later, it also stimulates activity of lysosomes and phagocytes that just eat up, eat up the tissue, the muscle. So if you do too much, if you do too much acidic work, you're going to be sore as well. So seeking that makes no sense whatsoever. Especially as we know, not even from scientific studies, but from athletic experience, some people get sore all the time, see no progress in anything. Some people don't get sore, they keep getting stronger. And everybody in between. So there's no correlation.

If you're looking for pump, on the other hand, if you're trying to build muscle, one very, while building strength, one very simple guideline would be: I achieve some pump with a heavyweight and low reps. So if you keep your reps five and at fewer, even three, but you achieve a little pump, that means you've performed a sufficient volume of work to stimulate the adaptation. What exactly happens in the B, I cannot tell you, but it absolutely does work for both strengths and both, um, both hypertrophy. So many theories about what causes hypertrophy. At least you and I know that we don't know. We're just speculating here. Just a, I really appreciate that you, uh, always acknowledge that, um, that we're sort of, we're not totally in the dark about hypertrophy might, might be. I like this theory about the hydrogen, um, creating a permeability of the of the cells. And you mentioned that then it gives the hormones access. Some folks might know, and some people might know, you know, that the steroid hormones like testosterone, estrogen, and others, they combine to cell surface receptors. But they can also go into the nucleus of a cell itself and cause changes in expression. Which is sort of, if you just think about puberty, is the most salient example right there. There's all these latent potential in the cells of the body. But then once the testosterone and dihydrotestosterone and estrogen arrives in the body, depending on the, on the, the sex of the individual, then you activate hair growth, you activate breast growth, you activate muscle growth, thickening of the vocal. Anyway, that's through gene, uh, changes and gene expression.

In this configuration that you described before, you know, of doing this, um, three repetitions and repeating. You may be doing that three times a. Up to three. You can even do one, as you mentioned. Yes. Right. Three times a week. Could I also train for strength simultaneously? Same days or other days? Other days. Other days. So on the intervening days, I could go in and do my, my real strength work. Yes. And you look at your priority. If, uh, if your strength is more important, do this, do this type of a strength aerobic work no more than twice a week. Mhm. And, you know, then you do strength like an additional three times or four times. If that type of endurance is more important, do real strength work once a week, and then three, four times of the other kind. This is also a very good idea in general for planning for training, planning for planning training different qualities. Because trying to develop everything to a high level at the same time, it's impossible. It's simultaneously training in parallel. Everything only is good for young kids when they're developing. Because, you know, you got to try everything. Nothing's at a high level. Later on, uh, there were different models of how to structure addressing different qualities. So one example would be training. So here's one really good example how strength and hypertrophy can be, uh, can be addressed at different periods. The experiment goes back to the 1970s. It was done on Ivanov, Kova, I forgot the third, uh, third author. Experiment done on throwers. And they were doing squats and bench presses. And, uh, one group was doing 85% for five triples, you know, typical heavy type stuff. The other was three sets of 10 with 60%, which is fairly typical hypertrophy work. Gym bros would say that's too light for sets of 10. And I say, no, it's not. Because you still have to throw the shot put the next day. If you, if you do 10 sets of 10 reps to failure, you're going to be completely done. Your strength will be down by about 40% for for the next few days. So, and so they, one group did this, the other group did this. They both made good gains. But up to a point, then they, they plateaued. The third group, they alternated two weeks of this, two weeks of that. And they, in the quad, interesting, I have to say, didn't make that much difference. But in the bench press, there's a huge difference. That alternating these two types of stimuli. So that's an example of block training. How you can do that.

But what you can also do is you could simply maintain a quality. So fortunately, it takes a lot less work to maintain anything that you reach than, than to, um, to get there. So typically training some quality once a week at a moderate effort is enough to maintain it. Like in strength, example of strength, if once a week you lift 80% of your max with three sets of three reps, you can maintain your strength easily for months. Easily. It just, just doesn't take much at all. And you don't want to stop your strength training ever, totally. Because again, it has that, um, it will improve everything that you do, even your endurance. But then you can switch the priorities in the same manner. And people can do that in their own way. Oh, okay. Here's a great example. So I love Stu's biblical week. So where Stu McGill, he trains two days a week of strength, two days a week of mobility, two days a week of endurance, which is, uh, which is a very good and balanced, balanced model. But what you could do for a while is you switch to doing one, two, three. So let's say one quality gets three days a week, one quality gets two, one quality gets one. And then you shift the priority. So this sort of a serial specialization is a very good tactic for for experienced trainees. Maybe switching it up once every month. Perhaps once a month is good. Once a month is good. And maintaining that, you know, moderate hard. What was it? Moderate, very hard. What was, uh, Franco's, um, what was the cycle? Forgive me for forgetting. You know, you can do that as well. Yeah. What Franco had four weeks of deadlifts, moderate, heavy, moderate, very heavy. And again, we can define them a lot of different ways. But we definitely need to vary the effort, not just the intensity. Somehow, somehow in our training, it can be done differently in different, uh, in different training systems. One very simple way is just to stop, stop your sets earlier, before long before failure. And, you know, later on, and some weeks, just get a little bit closer to that. So that's an example of that classic American cycling, powerlifting cycling. So when on your week four, you're going to do five reps with your five rep max. But on week one, you're doing five reps with your perhaps 10 rep max. So that's, that's a very simple way of doing that where you go easy, and then you go harder, and then you start over. But there are many, many different other ways of of structuring it.

But generally speaking, I'd like to warn people that training hard has to be done. But it's not something that has to be done in really small doses. It's like, let's use singles as an example. Heavy singles. Heavy singles are the special sauce of strength training. They cannot be used as the foundation of your training unless you are, except for some very few genetically gifted individuals. You know, we all know that Bulgarians have done that in the weightlifting. But again, these guys were specially selected, specially assisted, and they were broken very quickly. Soviet champions stayed there. From Soviets who won the Olympics at the age of 36, like Vasily Alekseyev, and Grigory. And David Rigert said, I think, what, 63 world records? Because they were very careful about when to use this, uh, near maximal stimuli. They figured out this. And the system itself, the Soviet weightlifting system, was totally empirical. Which is really fascinating. They just looked what works, what doesn't, compared it, and just kept trying. So they've experimented with everything. And they simply have found that certain observations like, okay, lighter lifters can do more heavy singles than heavier guys. Intermediates can do more than the advanced guys. It's going to vary from lift to lift, a lifter to lifter. No difference between guys who are on drugs and guys who are not. But you have to individualize it. And they found that if you do too many heavy singles, you're going to not progress rapidly, you'll hurt yourself, you don't do enough, you don't progress as quickly. So it has to be, have to find that sweet spot for yourself. And they also were very definite that the singles are maximum. So that's what competitions are for. So they would go to 90, maybe 92.5%, once in a blue moon, 95. But you're not there to test yourself. There's even like, like Russian powerlifters, what they do, couple weeks before a meet, they have this work up to a weight that's kind of max. So the word for it is "preeka" and "prute." It translates kind of like estimate. It's like an estimate. This is not, you're guessing. Like you see, this is where I'm at. That gives me an idea what's going to be my first attempt, what my opener is going to be. Instead of, "Oh, I'm going to test myself." "I'm going to show them." Gym is not the place to show anything. That's what the platform's for. So you need to find, if you're interested and serious about strength, you need to find how often you can go heavy in the different lifts. Start with, you know, start with something maybe once a month, about 90%. And then try to see you doing it more, doing it, or doing it, uh, fewer times. But the meat and potatoes of the training has to begin with this moderately heavy weights, heavy enough to respect, not light enough not to fear. And most of the work has to be done with that. So it's like those sets of three, four, maybe five reps with 80, 80%. Something, something like that. And that's fairly universal across the training systems. Because the American powerlifting system, you know, is organized, the cycling organized totally different. But that's again, there's going to be, no fives and threes and fours that's going to be a big deal. Soviet system different, but a lot of threes, a lot of fours, some fives, some variations. But why it is so? Some of it possibly has to do with skill practice. Because this goes to an example, it's a Western study of a discrete skill. A discrete skill to listeners, that means something that happens once, kind of like a throw or a lift, as opposed to continuous skill like running. And in an experiment, they tested these athletes, do this discrete skill for six sets of one, three sets of two, or one set of six. And two sets of three did much better. So supposedly, it's like there's a certain amount of repetitiveness. Like when you hit the perfect trap and then you die. Mhm. Again, three triples have that very special quality. And presumably, there's a drop-off of ability to concentrate and really execute properly.

Absolutely. I mean, one thing that keeps coming through here is that whether or not one's talking about high volume or low volume or endurance or strength, quality, quality, quality. Oh, no doubt about it. Everything else is potentially detrimental. And frankly, has added a lot of confusion to the fitness literature where people, I think, you know, they're doing, you know, five sets of five, or do I do 10 sets of 10? And it, I, if I may, you know, this isn't my, my field of expertise, but again, having been in and around it for a while, I feel like the message that keeps coming through that's going to deliver the results is every single repetition, high quality. The rest period, high quality, whatever that may be, walking around, shaking it off. The the structuring of the program, high quality. I think people are far too haphazard and seeking the pump and soreness and some sweat so that they can have their post-workout shake. Well, I'm not trying to be, and a selfie, and a selfie, uh, between every set. Um, and just kind of check the box. Even for people that aren't competitive athletes, I think there's just such an enormous range of things to be gleaned from taking one's fitness training seriously. Even the word "fitness" is kind of a strange word. Training seriously. I've never even called it a workout. I think I picked that up from Menor. You train. You don't, like, I've never. Or you practice. Or you practice. I like that very much. I also like the distinction between students and and clients. That's that's a very. These are not just, these are not just labels. I think they really. No, they really not change our cognitive frame. In the Soviet system, when you're talking about your training session, often times it was referred to as a lesson. When various qualities were developed, like strength, endurance, and so on. Vashi, for example, often mentioned that like education of qualities. And at Strong First, we talk about a practice, not a workout. And great line that was written 100 years ago by Earl Lidderman, and his "Secrets of Strength." And back then, strength athletes understood the importance of not training on the nerve. So they understood, you just train, and then eventually you're going to go for a PR. But the rest of the time, you don't kill yourself. And when he's describing kind of this, uh, early adherent of this high intensity, whatever, ever, and he's referring to him, he says, "He has literally worked himself out." And he says, "That's something that a strength seeker cannot afford." So semantically, when you're trying to work yourself out, that's you're trying to exhaust yourself. Or are you trying to practice to excel, to get better at something? And that applies to quality. Because endurance very much has a has a skill component, just like strength. Because the ability to, uh, reuse the elastic properties of the tissues, the ability to relax between the contractions, to restore the circulation, the ability to maintain the proper posture, and so on and so forth. These are all skills. The breathing, breathing skill, huge, extremely important for strength, for endurance, for absolutely anything. And if you're going through this mindlessly, it's, uh, yes, yeah, nobody's going to get very far this way.

Okay, so while one could use resistance training in order to generate strength and endurance, you explained how to do that. There are a good number of people out there, including myself, that sometimes like to get outside for a run or to hike. As you mentioned earlier about the rucksack, I'm not such a fan of the rucksack because of being pitched forward. But I like this idea of carrying the kettlebell and switching sides. Nowadays, they also have some weight vests that are a little bit more, uh, you know, close to the body, that distribute the weight. What are your thoughts about going into the gym in order to do the strength training and then generating the endurance work elsewhere? To be blunt, like how would one combine lifting and running in a way that allows one to get stronger and develop endurance, perhaps simultaneously?

If we're talking about right now, uh, people who are just active people who are not athletes, there are several things they need to keep in mind. One is, uh, the timing, relative timing of strength work and endurance work. If the strength exercises that you're doing are primarily neural adaptations, which you're targeting, which means lower repetitions, heavier stuff, then it's important to be fresh when you're doing the exercise. It's not really, doesn't matter as much what happens afterwards. So which means that you could do some heavy deadlifts, you know, heavy deadlifts, uh, and then a few hours later, you can go for your hike. On the other hand, if your, uh, lifting is more hypertrophy oriented, it's less important if you come in tired. It's okay, even if you just hiked in the morning and then you went, did your curls. But afterwards, for 36, 48 hours, it's ideally to restrict endurance exercise. So because you're really going to have a massive conflict right there. And it's not a good idea to do that. If you're doing our preferred work of, let's say, sets of five reps, five reps again, they address both endurance and strength. Well, I guess you better keep a window on both hands right there. There's always a conflict. You know, Thomas Saell said, "There are no solutions, they're only, uh, they're only, uh, compromises." So you just have to decide which way you want to compromise. But that separation in time really does help. The other thing is spending different times when you focus on one thing versus the other. So the next two months, you're going to spend on hitting your strength hard. And you're just going to do two hikes a week, just to, just for your health, just to maintain. And then summer rolls around, and you put your lifting on the back burner. You lift less, not necessarily lighter, just less. And you spend a lot more time outdoors. And, uh, and do these different things. Keeping in mind also the duration of, uh, the duration of training. So the longer your training session is of any kind, the more you are triggering adaptations that are, uh, that are more in favor of endurance. So your cortisol level goes up. And there are some other things that do happen that drive you towards endurance as opposed to strength. So even in your, your strength training, don't make the sessions too long. What's too long? It's really hard to know at this point. In the Soviet weightlifting practice, the top guys would spend two, two and a half hours. They would, for them, that work that seemed appropriate. But then again, don't forget that at that point, they're juicing. And in the pre-steroid eras, those times are shorter. And this is one of the differences in steroids, by the way, that's in your training when you use steroids or not. The, as I mentioned earlier, Soviets established the correlation with the volume of lifting and muscle mass. That's one thing. But they also established correlation between volume of lifting at 80% or higher and strength. And the correlation is very strong, 0.84. However, if you're talking about the muscle mass with that lighter stuff, some lifters would just get great results. And some lifters would just get more endurance. And they found that guys who are juicing, they can keep doing higher volumes and still, still getting more muscular. But the guys who are not, who are clean, they're just not able to do that. So trial and error, probably like Marty Gallagher says, "Fill an hour." I think that's a safe, I think that's a safe guideline. Fill an hour. Yeah.

I like the "fill an hour." I don't think I've ever spent more than an hour of actual work in the gym, maybe a 75 minutes or so. I notice if I train longer than that, I pay a serious price in terms of post-exercise fatigue later in the day. I'd actually like to talk about this concept. I looked it up before sitting down today. There's a little bit of literature starting to emerge, not as much as I would like, about post-exercise cholinergic depletion. You know, so much of our ability to hold our attention is dependent on epinephrine, norepinephrine, and acetylcholine release in the brain. And of course, muscle, muscular contractions, acetylcholine being the dominant transmitter from nerve to muscle communication. But this idea that if we exercise too intensely, or even if we just do cognitive work that's very intense for a period of time, that there's this post-exercise cholinergic depletion. And then we get this, what people typically call brain fog, although that's not a real medical term. So I think from the practical standpoint, a lot of people who would like to train more for strength, train more often for strength, do strength and endurance work, the challenge sometimes isn't just scheduling it, it's that we feel depleted and tired afterward. Have you observed this? And is there a way to use strength training or other forms of training to improve cognitive function? Because I, you know, again, as you pointed out, only compromises, not solutions. But I do see a world in which one could use their physical training to give them a, for lack of a better word, a boost into the day. So you're getting stronger, you're developing your your health, and you're also able to then lean into your day with with more focus and attention. That would be the ultimate scenario.

Yeah, well, there's obviously, we're looking at a zero-sum game. So there's, you only have so much, you know, your resources are limited. One thing that will absolutely help is fragmentation. It's been proven that dividing up a given workload into smaller chunks allows, doesn't matter what it is, whether it's endurance training or strength training or some cognitive work, you're able to, you're able to do more. And that's one thing to consider. The other is, uh, obviously the, um, feedback. You know, you have to listen to your body, pretty much. Soviets stressed very much that you have to take the cybernetic approach. You have to have the feedback. No matter what the training plan says, says, you have to listen to, you have to listen to that feedback. And freshness in the Soviet system of strength training, and not just in weightlifting, freshness was paramount. It's even better. Let's talk about how track athletes in the Soviet Union trained for strength. And that's more, that's would be even more applicable to a lot of the listeners. Because they definitely didn't spend two and a half hours in the, you know, in the gym. So Professor Vladimirov, he was a head coach. And he was one of the first to implement heavy lifting for the, for the track. After right after the Soviets decided, "Hey, look at these Americans, you know, lifting heavy." We have Bruce Randall and Paul Anderson and Canadian Doug Hepburn. So these lifters, he has absolutely says, "Always do low reps." So they would never do more than three, four reps, even with the lightest weight, even with a warm-up weight. They spent a lot of time doing just singles and doubles. And it was absolutely essential that they stayed fresh. And part of it was just the how they felt. Part of it is the performance, how well they jumped and so on. And how they felt after. So they found if you're really obsessive about it, you have that tonic effect that lasts at least until the next day. And the tonic effect is both for your strength, for your power, but, uh, also for, you know, your cognitive functions as well. But it's also very, very interesting that here's an idea. Do a bench press before the next day before you're competing in a jump. Or do a heavy squat the day before you're competing as a thrower. So it's again, it's very interesting how the opposite part of the body stimulating that was, uh, was very, very helpful. Very interesting phenomenon. So they found if the strength work is is familiar and non-exhaustive, it absolutely facilitates whatever it is that you do afterwards. And, uh, restricting the, this is where the difference, this is where track athletes were very different from a lot of other people. They tried to restrict their volume as much as possible of strength training. In part because, well, they had to do other things, and because they had to stay fresh. So if you look at the volume, if you look at generally speaking, how many repetitions that you want to perform per exercise, per, uh, per training session. And again, these are purely empirical numbers. They come from Soviet weightlifting, but they were also applied in track. So the minimal volume is 10 to 20 repetitions total. So minimum. And optimal is 20 to 30. Maximal, it becomes 30 to 50 in that window. So when you're looking at 20 to 30 reps, maybe on the lower end, right there, you're going to build strength. And if you also are going to not go to failure and rest sufficiently between sets, unless greasing, unless you're greasing the groove, you need to look at at least five minutes, pretty much. And that's both for neural and biochemical reasons. But more is really better. Unfortunately, really a lot of it is just comes down to listening to your body and just using your judgment. I wish I had any better, I wish I had any better answer here.

I think it's a terrific answer. I like to leave the gym with some gas in the tank. H because, well, I get paid to think and to speak, as it were, not to lift. And many great thinkers in the strength world, starting from Lidderman back 100 years ago, to, uh, to Soviet weightlifting, authorities like, you know, Romanov and Roman. And, uh, later on, somebody like even Steve Justa, was a very colorful individual, just brilliant, brilliant strength, strength athlete, a farmer from Nebraska, who just came up with some fantastic protocols. But he would say that you've got to finish stronger than when you started. I love that. And that seam is very much permeates, uh, professional or high-level strength training. Where this mentality of a workout, or try to get smoked, or pumped, or throw up in the bucket, they would look at you as that's insane. One of the reasons that also Soviets restricted the number of reps in the squat because you do sets of 10 in the squat, you're going to definitely put on some mass, no question about it. But one of the reasons they restricted that, very few people did sets of 10 except for heavyweights who were had a hard time bulking. And even more is like, okay, that's too much cardiorespiratory stress. And even though Soviet weightlifters did some general physical training, like cross-country running or playing soccer, but they're not trying to get their cardio in the, uh, on the lifting platform. That just made no sense whatsoever. So restricting the reps will go a very long way. Restrict, increasing the rest periods to at least 5 minutes would go a very long way. And restrict the number of exercises. Because people don't realize that you're using different muscle groups, but still using the same brain, you're still using the same adrenals, and all that stuff really adds up. And so I would say two during one practice, one training practice, maybe two, maybe three exercises, max lifts. And nothing wrong with doing just one. And yeah, if you want to, you know, do your curls and whatever calves later, that's fine. But you can tack it on in the end, or you can do it totally separate. Those things don't really zap you. You can just come in on a separate day and just do your, enjoy your calf burn.

Love it. There seems to be an overreliance nowadays on pre-workout stimulants. I'm a big consumer of caffeine in the form of yerba mate and coffee. I'm old school that way. Not that I, my coffee. Yeah, you still drink coffee every day? Yes, I do. Yeah. But only twice. Got a moderation. Moderation, right? These days, there's a lot of emphasis on just trying to get, as you know, absolutely wired and and geared up for training. And I think in part contributes to why people feel this post-exercise fatigue. You know, they go hit the gym hard after a pre-workout, and then they're doing their post-workout shake and a bunch of carbohydrates to replenish their glycogen. And then of course, two hours later, you want to take a nap. I mean, it's amazing anyone could study or do anything at that point. I think that's very different than the kind of training you're describing. I also, just so, I'd love your thoughts on stimulants generally, and how they can support or hinder performance. And I'm also curious about just the, what's lost in that model in terms of learning how to cycle one's energy up and down, you know, several times today, you've mentioned this thing of of the ability to relax the muscles and relax the nervous system in between sets. Maybe even in between reps, who knows? But usually between sets, and certainly and sometimes between reps under certain circumstances. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so maybe we talk about stimulants before we started today, we were talking about, you know, when stimulants can actually hinder performance, when they can help. And then maybe we talk about this cycling of, um, tension and relaxation. Because I look at training physically as a, as a, as a venue for exploring nervous system function and control over nervous system generally, that one can apply elsewhere. So that's the kind of theme I'll just roll, roll out onto the table.

Well, first of all, I'll preface it by saying that stimulants and any kind of pharmacy are totally out of my wheelhouse. So what you're about, what I'm about to say is purely reflected knowledge. You know, with your neurobiology background, you can tell the listeners so much more than I could possibly can. But top athletes, when they compete, after a competition, I'm talking about power strength sports like powerlifting or weightlifting, for the next two weeks, they're, they're just gone. They're completely flat. Because there are two adaptations that take place in, uh, in, in strength training. Proper strength training. So on one hand, it's much more economical function of the adrenal glands. On the other hand, it's much higher capacity as well. So these are the guys and gals who are able to crank it up really, really high when they want to. But they're also able to really keep it, keep it down when they don't have to. And they do know that for the next two weeks after, after the competition or after some idiotic gym max, you know, that might take a week, they are, they're going to be flat. They're going to be completely gone. So you really have to spare your adrenaline. The lifters who take heavy lifts in, in the gym, they still typically, they stay at the training max, not the competition max. So what's the training max? A training max is, uh, the heaviest weight that you can possibly lift without, uh, getting too excited about it. And, uh, back in the 50s, uh, Luchkin, he was, uh, one of the fathers of Soviet weightlifting. He came up with a great, uh, tactic how to find that weight. If your heart rate goes up before the set, that's too heavy. So that you got to, like, you got to monitor yourself, unless you're in competition, of course. That's that's a different game. If I will defer to others about how much, uh, one should or could take stimulants before training, lifting, I'm talking about. But generally speaking, you got to do it in moderation. And especially, you got to save it for the times when you really need it. Like in the American powerlifting system, when you have during week three and four, that's a good time to do it. During the weeks one and two, when the weights are lighter, let your adrenals recover, and you don't need to push yourself as hard anyway. So it's just one example how to how to go about this. If you have to drink some stupid energy drink to just get yourself up to training, there's something wrong in your life. Possibly. It is something that's lifestyle choices, and you need to address it. If you always feel exhausted after training, you're missing out on life. I mean, if you're doing a very, a desk job that does not require high cognitive ability, something that's really mechanical with pen and paper or computer, and you choose to just destroy yourself on a daily basis with, uh, a lot of sets to failure or metcons or whatever it is, well, it's your choice if you want to destroy your life like that. But again, if you look at your adrenal profile, if you look at, uh, your sympathetic dominance, if you look at your how you're just feeling, it's going to be really, really awful. The other angle to this is, as we talked earlier, in learning and skill training, skill practice is learning. Current performance is not indicative of learning. So just because you're able to lift five pounds more because you got yourself all jacked up and some drink doesn't mean you necessarily got stronger. So you just need to come in and put in your practice and walk away and come back. And then when there's time and it's the day to go heavier, that's, that's when you do that. So don't want to discourage you from drinking coffee. In fact, if you drink a stimulant, coffee should be the only thing. The rest of this stuff is, I don't know. Yeah, coffee, tea. Coffee, tea. And, uh, then, uh, figure out again, figure out what is that moderate, moderate amount. Figure out how to use it when you truly need it as opposed to be relying on it all the time.

Would you mind before we go to the next question, if I, if I just share with you a result that I just wanted to plant in your brain, because I've been excited to tell you about this, because it's new results from the field of neuroscience that I don't think anyone's discussed anywhere, but I think you might find interesting for your sake of discussion here, but also for looking forward. I didn't do this study, I wish I had. The study very briefly is interested in the neural basis of choking. Not choking someone out, or not anything else related to choking, but when one feels that the stakes are really high, and suddenly ability falls away. What is that? So what they did is they developed this game where essentially the potential payoff in this game, while recording from neurons in the brain, is either low, medium, or very high, or the occasional jackpot, like you could just win the whole thing. And the payoff is, is very, very considerable. Then they looked at the amount of upper motor neuron recruitment. So essentially, the areas of the brain that drive coordinated muscular behavior or action. And what they found is that it basically scales with the level of reward. So you get more, um, neuronal engagement as the reward scales up. However, every time the jackpot was offered, it over-engages too many motor neurons. And so that this notion of cho, of like choking when the stakes are really high, has irradiation that you cannot control. Exactly. It's like spillover of, like, it's like too much. We could call it too much excitement, but it's not adrenaline in this case, although that's probably associated with it. You think, "Oh, great. You know, I'm going to, I'm going to get an award. I'm going to get bigger, or even bigger. Okay. Oh, my goodness. This could change everything." And all of a sudden, performance just tanks. And so it turns out it's, it's a brain thing at the level of over-recruitment. Which just speaks to this idea of being able to maintain arousal within a certain range is an essential skill to any performer. I just, I'll share that. It's a fun set of results. All I learned something, I have to share it with somebody who I think might, might care. So if ever people wonder about the, why people choke, it is, it is a hyperarousal at the level of the brain, not apparently so much the body.

Well, being able to control arousal, it's such a key skill for an athlete. And part of that, obviously, should be directed as sports psychologists. And there are some fantastic techniques. For example, Dr. Jud Brewer, who is an author who published the book with Strong First. Dr. Jud squatted 602 at a body weight of 132, and that was back in the '80s. He was in his 40s after serious back injury surgery. And he was, he was a sports psychologist. And he discusses these various, various skills. As fascinating, his control of excitation, inhibition was such that he would sleep between attempts. A couple minutes before the attempt, his handler or coach would wake him up. He would wake up, he'd get himself into a frenzy, he'd lift the weight, go back to sleep. Nine times a day, throughout the day. Now, that's a mastery of excitation, inhibition, your on switch and off switch. So part of that are is sports psychology. There are tools in sports psychology for that. Part of it is, uh, training. Is whatever you do in the gym, some of your habits, and some of your practices. Like, for example, okay, David Rigert is one of the greatest weightlifters of all time. Some people would say the greatest weightlifter of all times. And, uh, when he was discovered by Rudolf Plyukfelder, his coach, who was another Olympic champion, world champion, one of the things that the coach was impressed with is that Rigert would do his set, and then that after he set, he would just go completely limp, like a rag. And he was very impressed with that. Later, in Rigert's career, when he was a world champion already, in the United States, so there's an American coach. Rigert writes how he saw him in Columbus, Ohio, or Cleveland, Ohio, competing back in the '70s. He was, uh, lying and smoking a cigarette. And then he gets up, he snatches 60 kilos, like 135 pounds or something, once. Then he just picks up something else equally trivial. And then he goes and does his first attempts. And then ends up with a superior performance at a different time. Rigert bet Box of Kanyak to that he would snatch 90% of his max, which was his max was probably around 370 or something. So he was able to snatch 90% of that, no warmup whatsoever. And so this is this ability of that incredible control. So part of it is whatever you're born with. Part of it is sports psychology techniques. But part of it is developing some habits. As soon as you're done with your lift, just power down. Incidentally, after training, a strength athlete ought to perform a cool down. And Russians did some, did some numbers on powerlifters. And they found that the top powerlifters, they spend time in cool down. And the guys who are not so good, they don't. Because not only it just allows you to bring your excitation down, get your parasympathetic, get you to start recovering. So you do some easy stretching, you do some meditating, you do some breathing exercises, whatever you do. But even after each set. So you, so you put up that heavy deadlift or squat.

You just immediately come down and then you walk around and you chill. So you just try to tune your uh switch. So much breathing exercises come in handy for that. There are breathing exercises to increase your excitation. Uh, there are breathing exercises that are able to very much uh put you in a state of inhibition, very deep inhibition even. Some of them are hypercapnic, some hypoxic, which means, you know, you try to increase carbon dioxide or you're trying to decrease oxygen. There are some very sophisticated, yet really quite simple techniques that that uh that can help, that can help you do that.

I love this concept of just learning to push on the accelerator, um, push on the brake, and to, and to play with disinhibition. As the first person to come on this podcast, even among the neuroscientists I've spoken with, to talk about disinhibition, thank you for bringing that. Well, the history of that's a beautiful concept and an important one for how we function. That's a, that absolutely is. The original research was done in the '60s, EAI and Steinhouse, uh, 1961, I believe. And then later on, that was a big part of the training method of Dr. Fred Hatfield. Fred Hatfield is a legend in the, uh, in the iron game. He was, uh, one of the first to squat a thousand pounds in competition, and he was, uh, he was just a fantastic lifter and a, and just brilliant scientist. So he tried to direct a lot of the training, uh, towards this inhibition. So he even developed special techniques that are largely forgotten, ironically. But yes, disinhibition is huge. And it's, uh, also one of the, one of the things about disinhibition, to it's also very important to avoid failing. Because never failing a lift, that's part of disinhibition. So like we talked about Ed Cone, early, another one of the powerlifting greats. Ed Cone competed over several decades, set over 70 world records in several weight classes, uh, only missed a couple lifts in competition, never missed a training lift whatsoever. Always calm, always composed, an amazing lifter, amazing guy. And what's very likely happened is that his inhibitory pathways just shriveled and got pruned and died.

What people don't realize that, you know, greasing the groove, that's the term. Proper term, long-term potentiation is like when you are getting better at, like that transmission gets stronger. It's like your nerves become superconductors. But there's also its evil twin, long-term depression. So pretty much what happens is now you're trying as hard, but your muscles are not jumping in response anymore. So one of the ways to, uh, get this long-term depression is by, by failing. So whenever you're attempting certain thing and if it doesn't happen, that, that's a way that pathway starts, starts firing weaker, and the inhibitory pathways start become stronger. And it becomes even worse if you're emotional about it. So you said quite a few things about adrenaline, but, uh, adrenaline has, adrenaline does promote neuroplasticity, but not always in a good way. So if you look at the PTSD treatments, you will find that if, uh, a person re-experiences that bad, whatever thing that happened, and then it gets into the feedback loop, that positive feedback, positive doesn't mean good, positive, it just means it keeps increasing it. Because every time that there's a spike of ADR, adrenaline, that reinforces the memory. So if you missed the attempt and you also got really upset about it, and you remember, remember it again, so you're making yourself weaker and weaker.

Which reminds me of a very fascinating way that the ancients used for, uh, to record some events before, before there's writing. So let's say there's a wedding between VIP families. They bring a kid, young kid, seven-year-old, let's say, and make the kid watch the whole thing. And after, after the festivities, they throw the kid into the river. The kid crawls out of the river, and it was, he doesn't know to, he doesn't expect it. And the kid climbs out of the river, he's going to remember that wedding for the rest of his life. He's going to hold that record because of the adrenaline spike associated. So that really did increase the neuroplasticity. So that memory became really deeply ingrained. So, yeah, part of, uh, part of disinhibition is not promoting inhibition, is just not failing. So Fred Hatfield had a beautiful line, "Success begets success. Failure begins failure. Train to success, not to failure."

Do you recommend actually avoiding training to muscular failure? Absolutely. There is really no reason for that. If you're doing that with, uh, single joint bodybuilding exercises like curls, it probably does not make, doesn't matter. And if you're doing it for bodybuilding, but I still don't see the point. Because every rep closer to failure, that it's going to increase exponentially your recovery time. So you're not going to get quite as much, uh, yeah, you might get more muscle gain from that particular last rep, but your recovery is going to be increased so much. And also, as you start training to failure, you also, you're converting more of your fibers to toward slower, toward slower types. So on the other hand, if you don't train to failure, you don't. So there's an interesting Spanish study when, uh, they found that when athletes train to failure, again, they're some of the mein and type 2x fast fibers, they convert it to 2A. So they, they became slower, probably because now it's an endurance event. When you're training for as many reps as possible, it's really an endurance event. On the other hand, the athletes that trained with half the maximum possible repetitions, uh, they did not experience that decline.

Which goes back several decades to when Arad Vario, Vario, Olympic champion, scientist, head coach, incredible, incredible person, uh, he said, "There is a big difference between six sets of three and three sets of six." Because, and you think like this sounds like the most obvious thing to say, but the fact is, you build just as much strength with six sets of three as three sets of six. You get a lot less tired, you get to practice for three extra sets, and you can train sooner. So that's, uh, that's fundamental. So pushing to failure also, the other thing is about the control of your technique towards the last reps. There's no control left. But imagine that you always have that perfect technique. So you grease that pathway, that becomes a reflex. In fact, early on, the Soviet sports scientists very much viewed strength adaptation as just the development of conditional reflex, kind of like, you know, Pavlov with the dogs, drooling dogs. And then you go into the competition and you psych yourself up, and you don't even know what's going on. You're not aware, but you only have one pathway. There's no plan B. You only remember how to do your deadlift in this particular, you know, any other way. The neurons are trained to to complete the execution of the movement exactly, and all in a very specific way because there's no plan B. When you start failures, so you start, "Okay, this is the stressful situation." So I re, I revert to plan B. But for, there's plan B for amateurs. Top athletes don't have plan B. Watch a top lifter fail an attempt, he or she is going to shake with that bar, shake, shake, shake, shake, and finally it's going to come down. But it's not like the butt's going to shoot up or something ugly is going to happen.

So going back to that point you made earlier about the quality of practice, quality is absolutely paramount. And it's, strength training is a skill practice. Any athletic training is a skill practice. Maybe writing the elliptical is not a skill practice, but it's not a, it's just not a sport anyway. It's not anything, any, you know, even hiking is a practice. You're trying to stay tall, you're trying to breathe in a particular manner. All practice. The crossovers between physical training and, um, mental pursuits are astonishing to me. You know, as we're talking about this, avoiding going to failure, um, I'm in the process of writing my first book. I know you've written several books, and I'm finding it to be very different than anything else I've ever done. And the experienced writers tell me that you should, you know, end on a, uh, end on a sentence where you kind of know what the next sentence could be, perhaps to see the unconscious mind for the next day. But, but that you don't want to run right up into a wall and then bang your head against that wall, metaphorically speaking, because it places a kind of frustration into your nervous system that you arrive to the page with the next day. I guess the opposite could be argued too, but, but it fits very well with, um, with what we're talking about here.

I, because of the early Mike Mentzer training, or the influence, I should say, um, I've tended to train to failure purposefully and used to do forced reps and drop sets and all that stuff. As the years have gone by, I've started only incorporating a few sets to failure, and my volume has increased somewhat, and I'm training heavier at lower repetitions, and my progress, as I get, you know, toward my fifth decade, just continues to, um, just continues. And so I, I just decided, as you were saying, the last couple of sentences, that for the rest of the year, um, I'm going to not train to failure because I really want to experience what it's like to do that for a long period of time, as opposed to just reducing the number of sets that I take to failure. I'm also, I'm very stringent about form and always have been. And I do want to ask, what are your thoughts on, um, unless somebody's training for isometric or eccentric specific training, full range of motion, not just for the sake of building strength, but can using a full range of motion also improve flexibility without some dedicated flexibility training? And I'd like to use this as a segue to talk about flexibility training.

Yes, it can. So sarcomeres can grow in length as well. So the contractile part of the muscle, they can grow lengthwise as well. It's, uh, something that needs to be done carefully and cautiously, of course. And it's, uh, with not with heavy weights. Eventually, it's possible for a person to perform, you know, flexibility feats with heavier weights if it's desirable. But initially, something go lighter. So yes, absolutely, you can. And, uh, it's, it's one of the easiest ways to promote flexibility. And, uh, flexibility also has a very much a neural component as well. So part of it, obviously, you know, you're looking at, you're looking at what's happening in the joints, of course. Part you're looking at, uh, you know, the length, the length of the, the length of the tissues too. But a lot of it is also the ability to reset the regulation of muscle lengths and tension. So it's, like the ability to do a split, for example. It's part of it is, yeah, well, if you're provided your hip joints are built for that sort of thing, a lot of it is really in your mind because you're experiencing defensive inhibition. You're just afraid you're going to get a torn, torn in half.

Which brings us to a very interesting parallel. As we kept talking about, uh, quality, and has also talked about that flow channel by Professor Csikszentmihalyi, exactly. Thank you. Between, uh, boredom and anxiety. So when you're trying to do a split, for example, so you see somebody trying to get into that stretch, and that person goes, "Oh," sitting there and panicking and being in total pain, and nothing good is going to happen. You're pretty much just, uh, facilitating these pain pathways, and you're just learning to hate this exercise. A smarter individual would get to the point to the edge of pain and then stay there for a while, owning it until this, the, until the spindle is reset, you know, okay, accept the new range of motion, add some contraction, relaxation, contraction, relaxation, you know, isometric stretching, you know, progress, progress, even further. So in any type of training, forcing the adaptation is just not going to work, whether it's flexibility, whether it's strength, whether it's endurance. There's time for very high level of effort, but there's never time for ripping yourself in half, right? There's never time for hurting yourself on purpose. So, but yes, do, do, uh, long range of motion work to increase range of motion. For the upper body, I'm obviously very partial to his kettlebells. But one of the great many benefits of kettlebell training, you know, a bow, the handle is, uh, the way it's designed. So you press it from here overhead, that offset center of gravity helps to pull your arm back. So you're just improving the shoulder flexion, you're improving thoracic extension. It's so much easier to place yourself in exactly a good position and then just stay there. So it's very important to stay open, to keep that, keep that useful posture and keep that good, uh, good shoulder function. So, but yeah, with squats, you can definitely do that, just very progressively. One warning about squats, if you're going for parallel squat, like it is in powerlifting, it's a parallel defined as the top of the knee is a little higher than the crease on the hip, not a right angle. People will argue about this, in some comical ways from time to time. So when parallel is not a right angle at the knee, correct? It's parallel. The top of the, the top of the thigh. I, I realize you said it very clearly, but I'm just making sure because debates abound on the internet. The top of the thigh should be parallel to the floor, well, or deeper. Yeah, yeah. But, but when you do go for that depth or somewhere in that ballpark, that's, uh, you can go wide in the stance. You can progressively increase the width of distance. If you do it for flexibility, there have been people who are doing squats like in, you know, almost like a horse stance style squats and progressively developing a great level of flexibility. It's possible to do that, but, uh, you are doing that, you're going wider, but not necessarily deeper. So it's okay to go wider, but you still, you're still your femur should not be dipping too much. So if you're trying to go rock bottom in the wide stance, your hip architecture is not designed for that, right? Like Tom Platz, like famous for squatting very, very deep, like he was narrow, but he used a narrow stance. Got it. So glutes on calves, practically. But he was a shorter guy, right? But he also, he was, but also he was also squatting in a pretty narrow stance. So in this particular case, you're not experiencing with the hip, you know, with the hip limitation right there. So it's okay for you. But imagine if you try to go wider and then you try to go, it's just again, this is not, not a good idea. You could end up on the floor, literally on the floor.

If you want to develop, here's a great way to develop flexibility for this type of rock bottom squat, if you're not there yet, uh, initially, even without resistance, assume your normal squat stance, and I'm talking about a narrower stance, you know, shoulder width or somewhere there. And approach the wall, face the wall, put your arms out, and start squatting. And you will find the wall is going to teach you. So it is the feedback from the wall. If you start doing something funny with your spine, you're going to hit your head on the wall and fall back. So it is, it provides terrific feedback. It is something that I learned originally from, uh, uh, from Shakun, a Shakun practitioner. And again, quite a number of skills that my system are picked up from, from martial arts, but we applied the strong first to use that for teaching people that upright squat and developing the, developing the mobility for deep squat. It's a, it's a foolproof. It's like, uh, Greg Cook would call this a self-correcting exercise. And those are really the best when the coach can walk away and, you know, have a cigarette, and the student is still going to be able to do it, right?

I love your book, "Relax Into Stretch." I think it's a really important concept, this idea that the nervous system and our mental state is preventing, inhibiting a good amount of our natural flexibility that we can work with the mental state and progressive relaxation and contraction of muscles and related tissues to... Well, absolutely can. And it's very much minded over the matter. I have a great success story. So one of, uh, one of my senior instructors, Strong First, Steve Fredes. So met him a couple decades ago, and he had a severe back injury. So he spent eight or nine months in bed and paraplegic. And he's not, he was not athletic. He'd done some jogging or things like that in the past. And he decided to get serious about getting strong. So he healed up until he was healthy, he started, uh, lifting kettlebells. Then after that, he started powerlifting, and he started doing, uh, proper stretching like this. So he's, uh, right now, Steve, in his late 60s, holds a, a bunch of American Masters records in the deadlift, even though his back was totally messed up. Lifts without a belt. He's, you can break your fist on his abs. I like having people punch. Would you please punch Steve? Just don't hurt yourself. But he also worked out, had to suspend his SI splits. And, you know, that's at that point, he was, uh, probably in his 50s when he did that, and maybe 60s, possibly. And then he even competed in these crazy all-around meets where there's one lift where you hang between two chairs, then you pick up a dumbbell from the ground. You can find the footage somewhere on the internet. So here's a man who took, who did not take his injury lying down. So once he was cleared to train, he decided to approach his training with the, uh, attitude of a musician because he's a music professor. And in my experience, that people who, who become very successful and, uh, in strength, musicians and martial artists are among the people who, who can succeed because they're used to practice for many hours, they're used to paying attention to small details, and they're used to doing whatever other people consider boring, over and over. So again, here is this 67-year-old man with abs, deadlift records, and full splits. That's, that's what a human mind is capable of.

Love this concept of a practice, or of practice, not of a practice, but instead of training. I always thought training is such a better word than working out. And it probably is, but I think practice, uh, is such a better verb than training. Is also good, of course, but practice is, uh, it puts you in the mind, in the right frame, frame of mind. You imagine the word "work out." Like Littman quote, he literally worked himself out. As long as you're highlighting, um, remarkable instances of people in the second half of their life, let's say, um, getting quite strong, developing impressive skills. Before we started recording today, you were relaying to us, uh, that your, your father has, um, acquired some significant strength. Could you just share some of his, um, his abilities to inspire both the, uh, the people, um, in the second half of their life, or so, and to, um, motivate, slash intimidate the younger ones, and, um, get them going, because they really have no excuse.

I'm very proud of my parents, and, uh, they're both 87 years old. And, uh, my father has always been an athlete. And then at the age of 71, I brought him to a powerlifting meet. And I see him in the warm-up area picking up, you know, 225 pounds with bad form. Like, "Dad, what are you doing?" He got interested. So fast forward a few years, and, uh, by the time he was 75, he had several American records in, uh, several weight classes. And he deadlifted, uh, in the low 400s, uh, without a belt, body weight of 198. And in fact, when, um, uh, back at that point, when Professor Stuart McGill, who is a very good friend of mine, he, uh, came to watch my dad, I think he pulled like 385 for a triple before competition at Gold's Gym Venice. And, uh, Stu examined his back, back, and he said he had a, you know, muscularity in the back of a 40-year-old. So I thought it was pretty, pretty, pretty cool. So he's not deadlifting right now because an old injury caught up to him. He fell off a track vehicle, you know, like imagine a tank without a gun, a military tractor vehicle on ice in the winter, about 40 years ago. And there are some things that caught up to him. So he cannot deadlift right now. But he's still twice a week, he does over 50 pull-ups in total. And, you know, and at least twice a week, he does over 100 perfect bodyweight squats, like powerlifting style squats, you know. And he does that, he does push-ups and things like that. So he just stays on top of that, and he's still maintaining very good strength, very good muscularity. So the approach to building muscle for him is, it's that same volume with medium reps and the medium effort. It always works because it builds strength, it builds muscle, it's very safe, it's, uh, it's very enjoyable. And, uh, my mother, she, uh, she used to be a professional ballerina, and she got started training since she was six. So she, because she had to train all day, she hates exercise. But she still does it because she must. And she came up with a great anti-glycolytic training protocol for herself. So this is something she invented. I had nothing to do with it. But it's just totally goes with Vas's work. She climbs stairs at a high-rise, and she will climb stairs from one floor to the next. She'll walk the hallway, come back, and then go to the next floor. So that's the same idea that Vasya had, intensify the intensity of contraction, and then give a little time to not. So in order for the acid not to pile up, you keep that effort creating phosphate powered and aerobic powered. And, you know, so she does that for 17 floors or whatever, a few times a week, plus other things. But yeah, I'm very fortunate, very proud of my parents. My father-in-law, Roger, he's a great example and a great greasing the groove success story. So he is a retired firefighter and Marine. And at the age of 64, and he always, uh, lifted very unusual for his generation. He started when he was 15, and never stopped. But he couldn't quite do 20 pull-ups when he was a Marine. So at the age of 64, he got on the greasing the groove protocol. So, so at that point, his max was 10 reps. So I said, Roger, every time you go by the pull-up bar, hit, hit five. And when they become really, really easy, and then you can add a rep. Well, a few months later, he finally, he worked up to nine daily reps. He tested, he could do 20 pull-ups. So at 64, he finally aced the US Marine Corps pull-up PT test, something that he couldn't do as a young Jarhead. And, uh, yeah, seeing these older folks who are not taking their age lying down and taking their training very seriously, it's just, uh, very admirable. And, you know, you see much younger people start complaining. Some 30-year-old comes, "I'm aging, I'm getting older, what should I do?" It's like, "What's wrong with you, son?" You know.

Yeah, I completely agree. These are inspiring stories, truly inspiring. And people of all ages should pay attention. It's, um, not done in one leap. There's the progressive nature to it. And I think not training to failure, um, just has resurfaced in my mind now as we have this discussion. You know, the idea isn't to to grind, it's to just grease the groove, get in there and do it as a, that's right, practice. Actually, I'm going to change my language around this. I realize that when I call it a practice as a noun, it's not as effective as practice as a verb. I'm going to practice. Okay? Not that, just for me, this is just my own internal thing, you know, my neuroses insist that I share this, but I do think that semantics are important, as you pointed out before, because it has a lot to do with how, uh, we feel about ourselves, and what we think we're capable of. Um, it starts with being inspired to try something. But also, like, I didn't grow up in a particularly athletic family. You know, none of us are unathletic, but I didn't think I could be, you know, reasonably strong, have decent endurance. And I wouldn't consider myself an athlete by any stretch. But you were being too modest. But my consistency, like I have, I have confidence in, like, if I bite down into something, there's a good chance I'm going to do it for the next 30 years. Well, in consistency, my, uh, my friend, Jim Wright, who passed, he used to say, "Consistency over intensity." And that that's absolutely true. If you're doing, if you're doing things correctly with proper form, if you do it over and over, you will win over the long term.

Which also, interestingly, kind of brings me to an interesting point. You made me think of the long-term development, athletic development. Here's what I'd like to see in a perfect world. Nobody has tried that yet. But I imagine a strength athlete starting out using the Soviet system. And later, by the way, the Russian powerlifting team uses exactly the same training methodology derived from that. Which means you're training many times a week. Let's say squat four or five days a week, and you're doing a lot of reps with this moderate effort. And you do this for for years, and you achieve a high level. And then at some point, you switch to this American powerlifting system, because your skills are already fully honed, and you're fully adapted to the type of stimulus that that first system brings. And you switch, switch to this once a week cycling method. It would be very interesting to see what, uh, what would happen. How far one could go. So folks in your 20s and 30s, get going on it now, and we'll have a podcast in a couple of decades to check back. Send us a note or put in the comments.

I'd love to talk about bodyweight training. I love, love, love the book "Naked Warrior." Thank you. I got that book initially because in the early days of starting my laboratory, I was traveling a ton, and I didn't always have access to gyms. And I wanted to try and grease the groove when I arrived in my room in the middle of the night in Germany or whatever. So, I still have not succeeded in doing pistol squats on both legs. One is, I have some dominant and weakness as it were. But, without any natural strength ability, to speak of, was able to learn one-arm push-ups, uh, one-arm pull-ups. I'm not there now. I have to return to that level of, of upper body strength. But it's remarkable what one can do with bodyweight training. And you describe some really beautiful progressions in the book. I highly recommend this book, folks. So maybe we could just take the push-up as an example, and a handstand push-up as the extreme of that, right? What I love so much about that book is for, and you talk about doing a push-up against the wall is trivially easy for most people, doing a handstand push-up, free, freestanding, very difficult. But there's a series of progressions in between that. Maybe you could describe to us that once you realize that, "Oh, I can work through this over time, and if I'm not in a rush to get through it, and I just do these a few times a week, or more, ah, or a few times a day, a few times a week or more, I could do a handstand push-up freestanding, or a pistol squat, or a one-arm push-up, or a one-arm pull-up." It's not outside one's reach at all. Absolutely. Yeah. So could you fill in some of the gaps that, so getting people to think about the, the kind of physics of this and the principles behind it? It's such a valuable system and, and one that, um, is a lot of fun too.

Before talking about the system, Andrew, may I speak about the relative benefits of different types of resistance, please? Okay. Yeah. So the bodyweight resistance, I'm going to talk about, uh, bodyweight, kettlebells, and barbells. And obviously, there are other things as well, but, you know, it's going to take too long. So bodyweight training, the great advantage of bodyweight is its accessibility. So you can do a push-up absolutely anywhere. So that is, that's a really huge selling point because for some people, somebody who travels all the time, and, uh, somebody who's in places where gyms are not available. So that's, that's a great asset. Some people just simply enjoy it greatly. That's that's just fine. The downside of bodyweight training is it's a lot harder to learn these skills than it is, let's say, to learn some many kettlebell skills or even some barbell skills. So it seems very innocent and so easy, but the, uh, it may take time to really get some of this. So that may take time to do it. Long may, might take a longer time. The beautiful thing about the barbell is, well, for first of all, the satisfaction of lifting really heavy stuff. Some people find it extremely satisfying. If you don't, maybe it's not for you. But if you do, it's, it's incredible. Then the ability to adjust, adjust the weights in small increments. So you can prescribe 87.5% one rep max, and you can do that. You cannot do that with bodyweight. In fact, with bodyweight, it's very hard to calibrate resistance. That's another one of the problems because you do need to have some skills to figure out the regressions and progressions, how to do that. And, uh, the other thing, the other great benefit of the barbell is some of the lifts, especially the three power lifts, allow you to make great gains in strength. And if you choose muscle mass with a very low volume, it's, uh, it's possible to do three sets of five once a week in the squat and get very strong. Try to do that with pistols, it's just not going to happen. So reasons for that, we can speculate, we know some reasons, we don't know others, but it, it is what it is.

The beauty of the kettlebell for strength specifically is it's very easy to teach the body language of strength. Of the kettlebell, you would think that with a, with a bodyweight, it should be easier because a lot of the skills that I teach in, uh, in my book, "The Naked Warrior," they are either gymnastics or martial arts based. So it's like, "Okay, here's the hollow position from gymnastics," or "here's this little trick from hard-style martial arts." So there all both use bodyweight. Nevertheless, it's, it's takes a lot more processing to figure out how to do this right from scratch. Like especially contracting your abs properly, especially if you don't have abs to start with. By the time you have them, that's good. But if you don't have them, it's hard. With a kettlebell, for example, you take, uh, you start doing double front squats with a pair of kettlebells. It's going to be like Zerchers. You're going to, your abdominal wall is going to light up. You suddenly learn exactly, "Oh, this is what it means to get tight." Or you stick your elbows inside the knees and do goblet squat. "Oh, this is what the proper, proper squat feels like." And just very easy to, uh, very easy to integrate, integrate all your body in one lift. And there is an, an apparent disadvantage of the kettlebell, which also can be an advantage. There's no, you can't program 87.5% bodyweight, I mean, one rep max, because kettlebells jump in large, you know, like for example, from 53 to 70 pounds, for example, that's a big jump. And I mean, these days, some companies will manufacture kettlebells with small, like, you know, small jumps. What's the point? You are defeating some of the, uh, reasons for the being for this particular piece of equipment. And here's what they are. One is simplicity. You only can have a couple bells and do a lot of things. But the other is, when you go, when you suddenly, let's say that you've been pressing a 53-pound kettlebell, and you're doing a lot of sets, and your goal is to press a 70-pound kettlebell, and it's a big jump. So what you're going to do is, first of all, you're going to have to put in a very significant volume of work. That foundation of the pyramid, many strength, uh, authors throughout history, Bill Starr and many others, use that analogy of volume as being the foundation of the pyramid. You're going to have to press that 24 kilos many times properly before you're going to have a run at 70. You have to develop the confidence. The other thing is, you're going to have to acquire the skill of tension, total body tension. Everything is linked up because when you go up a couple pounds, it doesn't make a difference. You're doing the same thing, you're not noticing. When you go up a lot, everything has to be just so. So as you're doing going through your sets of five with a 53-pounder, you're also doing just cleans with a 70-pounder. You're starting to see what it feels like. You're doing get-ups with it. You're starting to see, acquiring, see how that weight feels like again. We're talking about disinhibition here. You're planning and owning this weight. So you're forced to put in a very significant volume of work, which means which is very healthy. It will lead to a lot of really healthy adaptations, and you will force to develop the skills to make that transition. And plus, you're also having that desirable difficulty in skill in learning. There is that concept by Robert Bjork about desirable difficulties for learning. If, uh, learning is very easy, something is presented, you don't learn much. If you have to struggle, like even if you're reading something and a font is illegible, ironically, you end up learning better. So that's is an example of a desirable difficulty. As you're progressing this way, so that is for strength, obviously. Kettlebell have their benefits for for endurance and for for other things as well. But just for adjusting the resistance, often times it's just a matter of preference and a matter of accessibility. So I'm not going to say you pick this tool, you pick that tool, you pick the other tool. But if you decide to pick the bodyweight, uh, my recommendation would be just be ready, patient for a long road because you have to patiently learn these little subtleties of micromanaging your body. Again, you watch the body language of gymnasts, you watch the sun-in in, uh, some styles of karate, and you'll see that amazing, uh, linking of the different parts of the body into the one chain, how the tension is used. So it's, um, it's very rewarding. But I would say that's probably the most attention demanding, even though it seems so innocent and so simple and so safe, but it demands a lot of attention. But if that's your speed, and if you enjoy practice, true practice, that's that's a great way to go.

I haven't explored kettlebell training so much. Whenever I've tried the standard kettlebell swing, just kind of, if there is such a thing, but, you know, between the legs, two-handed kettlebell swing, I tended to get some right side, lower back pain, medial glute thing. And I'm sure I'm not doing it correctly. And I, um, I've wanted to learn kettlebells properly. You have an online kettlebell course? Yes, uh, we do have several resources. So we have the, uh, book "Kettlebell Simple & Sinister," which is available on Amazon. We have an online course under the same name. We also obviously have, uh, uh, workshops, live instructors that you can find locally at our website, StrongFirst. But I can tell you that, of course, some people are not supposed to do swings. As is true for every exercise. For example, in McGill's work, say some people who have problems with shear, sometimes they might have issues. But a great, great number of people, majority of people can do swings very successfully. We have seen some really pretty broken people when they're cleared to do that and when they're coached properly. The big issue is you have to hip hinge, not lift the kettlebell with your back or with your arms. And for that, we have very, very specific progressions. You cannot go move beyond this until you do this. Okay, here you are doing this particular hip hinge drill with no weight. Okay, good. You got that down. Now you're going to do a kettlebell deadlift, which is just a, you know, sumo deadlift with a light kettlebell. Then you're going to progress with a very particular type of swing. So it's about patience, but the benefits are really worth it.

So what are the benefits, let's say, of the kettlebell swings as opposed to or snatches? Again, snatch is more of a less democratic exercise. Like the dips, parallel bar dips, fantastic for those who can do that, but, you know, if you can, that's too bad. But there are alternatives. So again, the snatch is great. If you cannot do snatch, you can do swing. So the swing, it allows you to train power and power endurance in an extremely safe manner. Because if you try to develop power in a lot of conventional ways, uh, you will find like, "Okay, you try doing Olympic lifts." It's very skill-intensive trying to learn how to do that. And besides, for some athletes, it's not appropriate. Racking the bar and, uh, overstretching the wrist ligaments, like for example, for fighters, that's a kiss of death. That's a really bad idea to stabilizing the wrist in this manner. And for many athletes, other athletes too, you know, a pitcher doesn't want to do that. A baseball pitcher. So high, you know, then you try to do things like sprinting. Sprinters require a lot of coaching, proper coaching, much more than a kettlebell swing. And it's very, very easy to rip a hamstring or something like that. So it's, this kettlebell swing allows you to train power and power endurance at a very safe manner. And what's also very unique about it, you don't have to use a lot of weight. What's unique about the kettlebell and kettlebell swing and another thing about the design, you can swing it back between your legs, but you don't have to let it passively swing between your legs. You can choose to accelerate it. This is called overspeed eccentric. So some years back, our colleague, one of our instructors, Brandon Heller, he put, uh, me and several other, uh, our colleagues, instructors, on the force plate, and we started doing swings with overspeed eccentric, which means accelerating in downwards and upwards. So we were using just a 53-pound bell. So the most experienced guys, we were able to generate over 10 Gs of acceleration. So basically, we made that 50-pound bell weigh 500 pounds. But if, uh, to the listeners who know about how, uh, how the tissues, how the passive tissues can handle the load, when the loading is really rapid, it's amazing how these tissues can handle it very, very safely. So you can apply tremendous amount of load. Of course, you don't start with that. It's not how you start your swings. So, and you can develop power endurance. So you can do a whole lot of different, many different sets, many sets. You've had Megan Kelly VAB, our, uh, certified instructor out of UK, you know, she set a Guinness World Record for a crazy number of swings done in an hour. So she would just go, her training is, she would go and do swings, she would do a few reps, pick up, set it down, and she would do it for, let's say, 90 minutes. And she would do it with a heavy kettlebell, and the adaptations are fantastic from that.

In the kettlebell world, we refer to the "What the Hell Effect." So what's the, "What the Hell Effect"? What the Hell Effect is when you're getting an adaptation that's not a beginner's gain, but it's an adaptation that's totally unexpected. There's some collateral benefit. How suddenly you're able, you're able to do something. And the improvements in fat loss, improvements in resilience. So res, like for example, speaking of resilience, so some of the tactical teams that I worked with in the US here, when they added either swings or snatches to their training with the kettlebell, plus one-legged, uh, kettlebell deadlifts as well, they stopped tearing their hamstrings. So you have this amazing way to do eccentric loading for the hamstring, but it's very safe. And just really prepares you. One of my friends, he's still playing baseball in the 60s. He says, "Thank you for the kettlebells." You know, he went through the course in, what, a federal agency, 20 years ago, and he's still doing that. He's retired, but he's still, he's still doing that. So that's a great benefit. The amount of pure workload that you can do in this amount, that's why you can burn a lot of calories, you can, uh, develop cardio, whatever. But also, like, why would anybody want to do power training who's not a power athlete? Because for so many reasons, right now, I don't need to speak about it. That your other guests have for the reasons of longevity, how important it is to to have high levels of power. And the kettlebell swing is one of the ways, one of the ways to develop it. And interestingly enough, going back, like, you know, these acceleration patience, Professor Yakov Nikolai Yakovlev, Soviet biochemist, he was just talking about sprints. During added sprints when you were adding sprints just to a jog, you know, this kind of a fartlek work, he was saying how important, how good it is for elderly and for teenagers. How good it is. So the kettlebell, even if you're not sprinting, if you don't know how to sprint, you're able to get so many of this, uh, youth-promoting benefits. And again, you have one tool that can train all the qualities. You can develop mobility. You know, the bent press, that's a tremendous exercise. The bent press, where the mobility of the T-spine, the, uh, mobility of the shoulder. So like, you were watching, and watch, for example, Dr. Dr. Pope Mosley, he is one of our instructors, and he's also a doctor and bed researcher. I mean, the gentleman is 70 years old, and he's doing this beautiful bent presses, getting himself in the range of motion that young guys, you know, on phones, can possibly get into, and is doing it in a healthy manner. So you can develop mobility, you can develop strength, you can develop endurance, and resilience in all one, one package. So obviously, I'm biased, and I'm not saying it's the only way to go, but that's one relative benefit, one of the many relative benefits of kettlebells. But in the overall lifelong journey, like if you're looking at three things right now, your newest strength, what should I start with? I would say start with the kettlebell. It's the best entry point. We find it so easy to start coaching people in powerlifting or transition to some bodyweight strength after training them with kettlebells. It's, uh, it's extremely easy because they've got that body language of strength down.

I'm going to have a few questions, uh, in the upcoming months about kettlebells. I'll try not to bother you too many times, but I'll, uh, thank you. I'll use the course as a guide, but I, I'm determined to to derive some of these benefits of, of kettlebells because, uh, kettlebells have been around me for, for over a decade now, and I, I just haven't quite taken to them, not through some aversion, but I'm, I'm going to approach it correctly. I love the bodyweight work. The bodyweight work, um, I don't know, maybe it takes me back to PE class when I was in high school or something when we do these fit, fit tests. Is usually some pull-ups, some push-ups, a reach, and a, and a run or something like that, like a, like a straight-legged toe reach. Who knows if it's a meaningful metric? But in any case, something so satisfying about going from struggling with push-ups to being able to do a one-arm push-up or something like that. And you describe it in, in how to make that progression in the book for people. Me, just to interrupt you, and it's also cool that you're a bigger guy and you're doing that. This is what I love to see. And we're seeing that as StrongFirst a lot. We'll have to see, uh, bigger guys and gals getting into the bodyweight exercises because that's not typical of their strength. We like to see skinny people getting into the barbell and just go against, like, for example, seeing somebody like, uh, Dr.

Mike Hardle, one of our Master instructors. You know, he's a former American bench press record holder and coach for the Powerlifting Team USA. I mean, watching him do one push-up, you've got to love that stuff. Because normally, big guys hate bodyweight work. It's humbling. And little guys hate barbell. And we just get, and not just guys, women. We have, we have these ladies, these skinny little ladies lifting amazing weights. That's just always awesome to see. That it is awesome. And I love that strength training, resistance training is starting to really make a showing here in the US and the general public. I think it's one of the best things to happen in the last few years. And this discussion, uh, your knowledge is going to put even more momentum behind it.

If I may just guide people, just briefly, on a very high level. Uh, great news: you have so many choices. Bad news: you have too many choices. So pick one program with an established track record and just stick with it and follow it for a long time. Do not try to over-customize everything. Daniel Kahneman spoke how much algorithms outperform humans so often. I've seen this over and over: how a properly designed strength program or endurance program that was, uh, generic design, but with certain, uh, you know, feedback loops in there, okay, if this happens, you have to go back and make some changes, deliver much better results than customized programs very often. So find something that's simple. Find something that does not have a lot of moving parts. And, uh, and just stick with it for a long time. If it's working, do not look for the for the next thing. Because the next thing, maybe it's as good, maybe not. But also, do keep in mind that every time you change gears, you lose momentum.

You know, you're, uh, you're a neuroscientist. I don't know if you spoke to your audience about the law of neural Darwinism. But the, there's a competition between the synaptic sites. So, you, the pathways. So you can only do so many things well. So a child can do everything, but not, but poorly. But as we get older, some, you know, some of these pathways get pruned, but others get reinforced. And unfortunately, we can't excel at everything. So there's this classic example, uh, with, and not just physically, mentally as well, cognitively as well. This classic example with taxi drivers. Uh, back in the days before GPS, taxi cab drivers, they were supposed to pass an extremely challenging test: how to navigate through the city that was not designed to be navigated through. And, uh, they found that, uh, certain part of their hippocampus was more developed than than in others. And so this, you know, so they thought, well, maybe it's just pre-selection. Maybe whoever made it through the test were the guys with more muscular hippocampus. You know, and then they monitored, then they monitored two groups of students over several years. And they said, they start with the same size. And in the group that passed, their brains, so to say, got bigger in that part. And the others, they didn't. Okay. But then, at the same time, in a different test, of a different test of memory, the guys who passed the test, they were not so good. So they lost something in the process. It's just life. It's, uh, many things in life are zero-sum games. You want to seek some balance up to a point. But there comes a point where, you know, you cannot do it all. We are limited in time. We're limited in our adaptive capacity.

Yeah, amen to that. And I appreciate you highlighting the London cab driver's, uh, experiment. Um, your, your knowledge of neuroscience is truly impressive. You're way too generous.

Thank you. No, it's true. Uh, no other guest on here has discussed long-term depression, which, uh, it's, uh, my dad said, and you know something, my dad early on, that is good things happen at junctions of fields. If you always stay exactly just in your own narrow field, and you're just, you know, it's just the same thing is repeated. But when you start going to somewhere else, a little bit outside, as adjacent, whether it's neuroscience, whether it's, okay, how do they, you know, what are the martial arts skills? How do the martial artists do for striking? Or somewhere else. I think that's just really interesting to kind of step a little bit outside your comfort zone. And sometimes you see patterns. That's what happens. Your father's a smart, smart man.

Thank you. Kids and young people training. Uh, I don't know what the going word is now as to whether or not there's a, you know, too young to, to resistance train age. You know, some people say there isn't. Um, when I was growing up, it was thought that if you squatted heavy or you deadlifted heavy before you reached your, um, natural, uh, limits of your height, that it could quote unquote stunt your growth. Like your comments on that? But based on what we were just talking about, it seems that if a young person is interested in developing a super skill in one area, one sport, okay, but there's a real trade-off to that. And perhaps what we should do as kids, um, is a little bit of soccer, a little bit of swimming, a little gymnastics. Seems like a wonderful all-around sport. Maybe a little archery. You know, try a bunch of things. Some ballet. You know, try, try. Well, that's the time to do that. That's explosive neurodiversity and the things that you can possibly do. And then find the things that you click with. And for the physical body, early specialization destroys athletes. It is really terrible because early on, kids absolutely need to do a wide variety of different activities and really pursue a fairly balanced development. You know, there may be a bias towards strength or bias towards endurance, but they really need to do it all. And, uh, specialist athletes break. They, they break. They're really do. So that balance between general and specific, uh, it's a tough balance.

Yeah, and psychologically sometimes too. We had a guest on here who's, uh, become a psychologist, but she was a concert-level, uh, violin player, then injured her finger. And it was like the most devastating thing. You know, when we put all of our sort of identity into one thing. Sure, you get your Michael Jordans, and you get your, uh, Tiger Woods. And that's, and seriously, there's no right answer or wrong answer. So I remember, um, Ivan Abadjiev, who was the head coach for the Bulgarian weightlifting team. He says, if Paganini played, whatever instrument, you know, in addition to his own instrument, playing 15 hours a day, he would not have become Paganini. And that's true. But I'm not saying that specialization is necessarily the right choice for everybody. Some, some people prefer to be decent in many things, and it is healthy. But you still have to decide. You still have to make decisions. Very much. You're looking like at a budget. Do I want to buy a couch? Or do you want to go on a vacation to Italy? Or do I want to go on a much lamer vacation and buy a lamer couch and do both? And I'm not saying what's the right answer right there. But just people do have to understand there are, there are limitations. They can't successfully compete in two sports, for example. It's not going to happen, especially if it's a power sport, an endurance sport. And, uh, they can't study everything to a high level, just, just as well. If you want to be a polymath, that could, that was fine in the 18th century. Right now, it's a little bit tougher.

Yeah, a previous guest, you may know him, Josh Waitzkin, of, you know, chess prodigy fame. He's gone on to do several things, uh, at world-class level by severing from the previous endeavor completely. He hasn't picked up a chess piece since he was 16, which is remarkable, pivoting to other things. But when one looks at the data on, uh, child prodigies, very few of them are like Josh. Most of them don't actually succeed in doing anything else at a very high level, except hopefully survive and thrive in their personal life. Who knows, after being ultra-successful as a young child, probably because their nervous system is so, you know, they grease the groove so heavily for one endeavor, it's very hard to cross over. Josh is exceptional in that regard.

Well, exceptions prove the rule, usually. Exactly. Not to say too mechanical and specific, but I'd love to talk about abdominal, or rather core work. Sure. Another thing that I love in "The Naked Warrior" are the abdominal exercises. I must tell you, um, after years of doing some crunches here and there, in different, you know, for whatever this class or that class or trying to, I never really cared about having my abs defined, uh, for its own sake. One should probably be, uh, able to at least contract their abs. Okay. It's a, the level of, we assess them by punching them, right? Right, right, exactly. But there's some wonderful exercises in there about learning to brace the entire body. And some, dare I say, some, uh, rather, um, unorthodox ways of assessing stability at the level of the core. I'm thinking about the, the plank, where somebody tries to either kick you over or push you over. This might sound violent. This is not where you start, folks. Kind of gentle. But I never thought I could do like hanging pikes, for instance. And like now, pikes are a standard part of my weekly routine. I love doing five sets of five of hanging pikes. And, um, and I will tell anyone that decides to go down this path, that when I first tried to do a pike, I failed miserably. I, um, tried an L-sit, failed miserably. Tried to the, you know, hang from the bar and just getting into a chair position and could just barely hold that. The progressions are what matter, right? Slow progression and patience. Now, now five sets of five pikes, trivial for me. But when I, I just want to emphasize that when I started, I was far, far away from that. And it's the progressions in the book that really helped me. And I've maintained that pike ability. So thank you for that. And I say it not, not to necessarily, um, to highlight what I can do, but that to highlight what I do believe most anybody can do if you put the work. They can't if they put a lot of attention in.

So, midsection training is one of the most misunderstood, messed up areas of physical culture. There are a thousand different exercises and people like, "Oh, you got to have variety, this many reps." That's not the point. The point really is tension and attention. So that's, those are the two things. And, uh, ideally, your best first step is really learning abdominal tension through something like a Zercher squat or double kettlebell front squat, where the load distribution is such that it forces reflexive stabilization. And you feel, "Oh, that's what tight abs feel like." And getting somebody just weak in a plank, it's hopeless. There's absolutely not going to help. It's not. There are ways of building up to it, yes, by rolling in the back and so on. But if you don't have that option, or if you choose not to exercise it, you have to be extremely attentive to the details of what's going on with on your abdomen. So you need to learn things like, for example, you need to learn to contract the pelvic diaphragm, pull your butt up because you're trying to con, you know, trying to constrain the intra-abdominal pressure. Then you need to learn how to direct attention to the different parts of your abdomen, almost like a bodybuilder, but really not quite, more like a gymnast. There is this argument about in the strength world about, you know, internal focus, external focus, and cueing. And the agreement is in motor learning, well, external focus cueing is so much better than focusing on, you know, whatever happens within the individual muscle. It may be true in the beginning, and maybe through outside of the strength game. But any top strength athlete that you will meet, they have their own internal cues how they do something. Later on, they may forget them. It dissipates. And, you know, but they know how to, this is how, this is how I engage the lat in the bench press. George Halbert, bench press world record holder, famously said it took him many years to finally understand how the triceps is used in the bench press. Many years. So there's a lot of internal component. And for the abs, very, very, very much so. You have to learn how to very much direct your attention there to get high tension. You have to keep the rep slow, like you said, five sets of five, perfect. High reps are not necessary. You're not going to burn off fat by doing more reps. You're just going to irritate your back, that's all you're going to do. Nothing else. So you treat your ab training very much like a, like a, like a strength, strength event. And if you do that, uh, you're going to get those results. And finally, the final detail is you need to use that intra-abdominal pressure as your friend. Because in lifting, like a deadlift or squat or something, intra-abdominal pressure helps you. It supports you. When you're doing abdominal work, you work against that abdominal pressure. You're just creating that pressure and contracting again. It, this is something called internal isometrics. So it's kind of interesting. It's just a combination of classic strength work with very internalized, kind of almost like a martial art approach to it. Then you need to learn also how to obviously use your abs in lifts and lifting. And once you do, and this is the beauty, you don't really have to train your abs anymore. So Franco Columbu, for example, great example. In addition to winning, you know, being super strong, strong, and winning Mr. Olympia, he won "Best Abs." He didn't train abs. He said, he told me, "I hate ab training." He just would stay tight whenever he did his heavy lifts. And this is pretty much what happens when you reach a certain level of strength and a certain level of awareness. Simply staying tight during your strength work and also employing power breathing, which is very important, you're going to be able to to get as strong as as you need in the abs and get your six-pack, or whatever, provided, you know, you don't need the Twinkies.

So how do you pressurize the? In fact, may I show an abdominal exercise right now that is just sitting at this table that's also going to teach you how, uh, teach your audience how to properly pressurize for lifting? Normally, it's better standing. So, and it's not for people with high blood pressure, heart concerns, you know, check with your doctor if that's the situation. So you take a normal breath in your abdomen, and you, uh, pull up your butt. Pretty much like imagine you have to go to the restroom, and you're trying to, you can't quite, you know, it's far away, you're trying to stop yourself. Then you put your tongue between your teeth and you start, and you start hissing. And you do this in this ratcheting kind of manner. So try to keep all the pressure out of your head, out of your neck. Direct all the pressure. It's all this pressure. You're just really staying below. And so this type of hissing, you will notice that very rapidly, you're going to contract everything around your waist. So everything around your waist is going to contract. And you're going to strain your abdomen. You're also going to start learning how to properly, how to properly stabilize yourself under under heavy weights. The difference between using this technique for lifting and for just training the abs. When you're training the abs, there's going to be some spinal flexion, not a whole lot. You don't want to do a lot of that. There's going to be some spinal flexion. When you're doing that under a heavy barbell squat, you're maintaining your spine is neutral. It's like your body stays a cylinder. And, uh, you're going to hold your breath, pretty much. But the idea is the same. So it's like, so the Valsalva maneuver. One, uh, Russian coach called it. It's a, it's an exhalation that didn't happen. Okay? Because people don't know how to hold their breath properly. They just, and then eyes are bulging out. Well, there's no stability right here. So first of all, you got to inhale low. And how do you do that? If you watch top lifters, how they do that, they will do it through pursed lips. You can also do it through the nose, but you cannot do it through a big wide open mouth. So I'll show you why. So if you, you can, you folks can try it at home. So if you put your hand on your stomach and try to do an abdominal breath, doesn't go very well. Now, for contrast, pinch off one nostril, take an abdominal breath. Or you can do that through pursed lips. Try it again. So you see more resistance. More resistance. And again, you're engaging the diaphragm instead of just, uh, just your, uh, thorax right there. So you take that breath into your abdomen, in like through a small opening, through your nose or through, through your pursed lips. Draw it in right there. And then, you know, down below, pull it, pull it up. And then after that, it's that, that exhalation that didn't happen. Do you see?

I, I'm familiar with sort of bracing my abs. What I've not done before is the, uh, resisting going to the bathroom thing that you mentioned, the pulling up of the butt. And then, and then so you're creating compression from the bottom and from the top and also from all around. That happens reflexively as well. I see. So that's the position to get into before, say, like a, a hard, a Zercher squat or something like that.

Abs, absolutely. And if you're doing that for an exercise that's long, long in duration, you know, if you don't want to be holding your breath too long, then, uh, we have an expression that comes from one of the Kestle tiles: breathing behind the shield. So, right now, I can speak to you, but I'm still just as tight. So you see what you're doing? So the way we tested it, our, the way we teach it in our workshops is, you lie on the ground, I tell you to tense up, and I'm going to stand on your stomach. I'm going to have you sing a song, and you're going to have to learn to properly maintain that pressure while still containing, containing, uh, continuing to breathe. So you're able to stabilize your spine, but you're not going to pass out from maintaining that by, uh, by holding your breath for a period of time. And then finally, what you got to learn to do is you got to learn to match the breath with the force. So synchronize, synchronize when you're punching, when you're throwing, when you're lifting, you have to learn how to match that contraction, the timing of the abdominal contraction and the pressurization. Sometimes exhalation, sometimes just pretending to, with the effort. Once you learn how to match the breath to the force, it's like magic. And what people don't realize, it's not just purely mechanical. Mechanically, yes, of course, it works. You know, Stu explained this so well about the stiffness of the structure, the analogy of the bicycle frame. It's the same thing. You're getting an expensive bicycle frame when you have strong abs, as opposed to the cheap one that rattles and wiggles. But there's also something that it's never, never spoken about in the West for some reason. The Soviets studied that decades ago. This is something they called the pneumo-matic reflex. Pneumo is p-n-e-u-m-o, so air. So there are baroreceptors, receptors for sensors for pressure inside your abdominal cavity and thoracic cavity. So whenever these receptors are stimulated, what they do, they automatically increase the sensitivity of alpha motor neurons. So which really means to the audience is this: if you imagine your brain is the music player, and imagine your muscle is, uh, is a speaker, the amount of intra-abdominal pressure is your volume control. So by, by increasing that pressure, you're increasing the strength. But by, by releasing that intra-abdominal pressure, you relax the muscle. So that's why in stretch, as I mentioned before, you can be sitting in a half split and groaning. No, you need to release. If you release that passive breath again, you're going to, your muscles are going to relax. So controlling your breath is, uh, very much, as it's known in martial arts, it's very much synonymous with controlling your body and your mind, very often.

Fantastic. When one throws a punch, um, is it true that exhaling is actually providing additional power?

No question about it. Yeah. It's been, it's been measured. It's been measured on fighters. Uh, it's also been measured in lifting as well. There was a study that was done in the West, even when screaming increases strength significantly. And again, this is not just a psychological component. I mean, there may be some psychological component to that, but again, there's this very distinct, uh, increase of strength through, through, uh, through that, through that reflex. And it's very easy for the, uh, listeners to test that. Get a dynamometer, hand gripper, and just test yourself on that and just see, test it out on different, uh, with different breathing patterns and just see what happens. And whenever, you know, this idiotic practice at some gyms, "Oh, you can grunt right here." And it's just, well, I guess you can be strong here. And yeah, of course, if you're doing this on purpose, you're walking in with the bros and you're just trying to just to make noise to attract attention, that's wrong. But, uh, strength is a noisy endeavor. So there may be some hissing, there may be some grunting. It's, uh, it's just absolutely unavoidable. And it's, uh, if, if you're, if you're trying to be quiet and if you're trying to be a lady or a gentleman, well, maybe it's not for, it's for, it's for somewhere else, not for the gym.

So some potentially, uh, trivial questions, but I think they are not trivial. I hope they're not. In any case, where should we place our eyes when we're in exertion? Close our eyes and grind it out? Look at form in the mirror? I'm a big fan of gyms without mirrors, yes, because I have to concentrate on the form. Vision is a powerful tool and and source of feedback, but also, um, a source of a lot of things. There must be a rule about this, or at least a set of guidelines for, are we eyes closed and grimacing? Are we, uh, checking our, uh, bicep vein in the mirror? Just kidding, don't do that, folks. Um, during a lift, where should our eyes be? Is there any idea that looking up makes it easier to drive up out of the bottom of a squat? Has this been explored?

Well, there, there has. There are several, there's several sides to that. Part of it is the, uh, spinal safety. So Stu will tell you that extending the neck is going to facilitate the entire posterior chain. And he also tell you that lifters with longer necks may be able to get their heads up, and that might work better for them. For some other lifters, especially those with pronounced lordosis, where they're very arched, big arch in the back, that may arch them too much. That might be inappropriate, or it just kinked their neck. It's, it's all possible. And so a lot of coaches these days, and lift, like a deadlift, they try to, including, uh, Andy Bolton. Andy Bolton, he's the legend, uh, deadlifter. He's the one, the first, uh, lifter to lift over 1,000 pounds in the deadlift. And Andy and I, we co-authored the book "The Deadlift Dynamite." So Andy's got the most beautiful deadlift, just the most incredible, beautiful deadlift. So Andy, what Andy does is pretty much what the standard recommendation for most people is these days, where you're maintaining a neutral neck, and your eyes kind of go with that. So you get yourself in the position, you know, on the bottom of the deadlift, like where your head is the continuation of your body, like you're an insect or something. And then you look at the spot on the ground that's appropriate. And your eyes will come up. So that's a good general standard recommendation for people. With long necks, looking straight ahead, it's a good recommendation. Some lifters succeed with crazy ideas. Lamar Gant, that, again, pound for pound, the biggest deadlifter. He was in tremendous hyperextension, he was looking at the ceiling. Uh, then at a high level of competition, there are some other subtle ways, some things people try. So Konstantin Konstantinov from Latvia, he was another great deadlifter who passed. He, uh, he would look down at the start. He would look absolutely down. He was pretty much, and if you look at, if you look at it from your perspective, when your neck is in flexion, interestingly enough, that facilitates the knee extensors, which is really, really weird. Yeah. And I, my chin towards my chest, uh, not all the way down, but, yeah, yeah. You will find that your quads are going to be stronger. Yeah. But it's not for everybody. For somebody else, that's a great way to mess up, mess up the back. So there are some, there's some subtleties. And there are also some people who really get fancy with the eyes, eye movement, you know, follow the bar, do these other things. Like I count from gymnastics. Good rule of thumb is, if you look straight ahead, more often than not, you're going to be okay. But from that, there are a lot of fancy ways to do it. As for for closing your eyes, closing your eyes is not recommended. It changes the coordination of the lift. But for advanced lifters, lifting blindfolded is a really good idea. So Robert Roman, one of the top Soviet, uh, specialists, he pioneered that. And you would have his lifters do some of the sets blindfolded. And it's really amazing at how much not relying on your vision, relying on your kinesthetic sense, what that does. It's, uh, it's quite remarkable. And also, just to add one more thing, in a competition, at least in powerlifting, a lot of, I mean, the top guys, they don't see anything, really. You know, they're just deep inside their rage. They're not, it's a total tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, everything. So it's, uh, whatever they had, some they had in whatever remembered position. But don't ask him to look at you or see you. It's not going to happen. They're someplace else.

Yep. Pavel, I must say, this has been a spectacular voyage through. You're very kind, Andrew. Has been, it's been a real pleasure. Very a very stimulating conversation.

Oh, thank you. And, um, I'm going to just embarrass you a little bit further by by telling you more, uh, positive things about you, um, because I notice it makes you uncomfortable. It's perhaps the only thing that makes you uncomfortable. But in all seriousness, I don't think I can sense any discomfort. I, I want to just thank you for a number of things that are reflective, I'm sure, of what other people are thinking. First of all, the level of rigor that you've approached this whole thing of strength and fitness and flexibility and breathing and, you know, every one of these topics, too many to list off just now, is it's remarkable. It's really fantastic. I love my job, so that's, that's easy. This comes through. And, and it's rare these days, but it's rare in any age to find people that are so dedicated to, um, this level of rigor in a given area. And, and it's so appreciated. Coming from me, it means a lot.

Yeah, we really, we need people like you. You're, you're truly a scientist and a practitioner. You embody the principles that you, uh, discuss clearly, which is also important.

If I could blush, I would. Russians don't blush. No, no. Got it.

A topic for another podcast. So that the rigor and the quality of the information that you put forth in your books and on this podcast and elsewhere, your online course, is just absolutely spectacular. And I hope people notice. You know, I couldn't help but notice as an, as an academic, but your attention to proper attribution for people that have done the work and accomplished the various feats from whom you've gleaned various aspects of this knowledge is not to be overlooked because that's something that's so lacking. These things, it's just, it's so, it's, it's remarkable and it's important to highlight. It should go without saying, it really shouldn't.

Yeah, it should go without saying, but it doesn't. You know, these days, it's more about who can glean the most attention as opposed to shed light on others. And, um, and their work. And in doing so, as, uh, as we've observed, there's absolutely nothing lost, and so much is gained. It's for everybody. So thank you. That, that's proper attribution is, is spectacular. And I really look forward to, um, sharing the resources where people can learn more. But already today, you've just provided such a wealth of knowledge for us. And, um, it's a real honor to sit here with you and to learn from you. I plan to listen to this podcast several times over and and take detailed notes. Uh, we timestamp it all. And, and I just hope that we'll have the opportunity at some point to sit down again. Um, and as well, perhaps, uh, to get the opportunity to train together. Uh, so I personally could learn from you. But in the meantime, on behalf of myself and everyone listening and watching, thank you ever so much, Pavel.

You're, thank you, Andrew. You're a real pleasure. You're a real. And thank you for spreading the, spreading the word of health and strength. Strength and health. Wonderful. Thank you.

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Pavel Tsatsouline. I hope you found it to be as interesting and as actionable as I did. To learn more about Pavel's work, including his books, his online courses, and other resources, please see the show note captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please click follow for the podcast on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Threads. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Pavel Tsatsouline. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

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