Transcription
Hey everybody, and welcome again to the Grow Leader podcast, where we grow leaders that grow churches by helping them reach their full potential. My name is Matt. So grateful to have you here.
If you're new to us, be sure and go and visit growleer.com to find out about all that we do and how we can help you. That's what we're here for.
Uh, sitting here as always with my founding pastor, Pastor Chris Hajes. I'm still getting used to that. The founding pastor. The founding pastor. Yeah. I I like that, actually. How you doing? I'm doing really well. I've missed you. I haven't seen you in a week. Yeah.
Well, as we are recording this, actually, hopefully both of us are on a little bit of a break right now, too. Uh, we record this in enough time to do what we're encouraging every one of you pastors to do, and that is, please take some time off and get replenished and refreshed. And so, that's what I'm doing right now. In fact, uh, at the time of the release of this podcast, hopefully um, my family is enjoying time together uh, on a little vacation. So, anyway, I'm excited. You've always told us, especially as we we lead the church, summer's not the time to to press for outward growth. It's the time to press in. Yeah.
I just was on a call with a pastor who actually asked me, he said, you know, PC, what can I do to grow the church during June? I said, kind of remove that expectation. I mean, I hope it does. Yeah. But I I've never seen it happen. I've never had May or June, mid-May to June, uh, as a really as a growth season. And it's a time where I think you should take some time off, but also a time where I I've encouraged pastors to focus on more of the pastoral side of the church, you know, care for people. That's why we put our children's, we call it a conference, but it really is our version of a vacation Bible school 3-day event, uh, that we call Summer Blast. But everything that we do this summer, Motion Conference, is about, you know, pouring back into the people of our church and strengthening the families and then get after it again in the fall because the fall really is a growth season.
I heard a a phrase this morning, I think Pastor Mark actually said it. I've never heard this before, but with graduations and end of school that families feel like it's Mayber that there's so much going on that that June is the time to rest. It's the Exactly. Mark actually texted me, you know, he's he's figuring out this this this new lead pastor role thing and and he after the Sunday, he said, "Oh, you know, we were down like a percent or two." I said, "Mark, that's that's actually good. It's usually much lower than that because man, May is just a time." Yeah. You have graduations, weddings, final exams, you know, all these things that really distract people. And honestly, um, I had to make my peace with it. You know the truth about it because you used to bug me. Yeah. Like, where did they go? Why why aren't they making church a priority right now? I just made my peace with it that it's it's what you call life, you know, and um and then so but you but then because that's happening, there are some opportunities you can realize again the opportunity to if they're going to take a break, why don't you? And that's why I always took my breaks toward the end of May, first part of June. Um I'm going to encourage again every pastor to do the same and then focus on the people that are there.
Let's let's let's we have this Wednesday night experience where we focus as much on what happens after the service as we do during the service. We call it Cokes on the Lawn because spiritual. Well, in the South, every soft drink is called a Coke. What kind of Coke do you want? I'll take a Sprite, you know. Yeah. So, but we have we had started this little tradition that is this after-service hangout time that has become a staple in our church and a time that people really love. But again, not we're not focusing on necessarily on growth and reaching. We're really just talking about strengthening the people that are there. It is a season where people when they do gather, they feel less rushed to get out and so take advantage of the linger. Exactly. And meet with people. Yeah. Because there's not school the next morning because because of summer. So yeah. So roll with the seasons is is is basically the the little message there.
Speaking of seasons, I want to get an update from you. Tell everybody about what this this new season for you. You've been reassigned. I mean, there there's so much going on. You know, I just saw our lead pastor, Pastor Mark, and he goes, you know, hey, how are you doing? I said, I feel the same way I felt on February 2nd when we made the announcement. There's there's been little literally no regret. Sat on the front row of the church this past Sunday, listened to the message, took notes, love every bit of it. Um I I'm very engaged in our college right now. I I am pouring already double the amount of time, effort, energy, prayer, uh, into enrollment, into buildings, and into um, our curriculum. And so, uh, I'm having a ball. It's what I was created to do. So, I'm very excited. Listen, you heard it here first. The future of Highlands College is is very, very bright. And let me say it this way, it has the chance to be something very special. And and as I said on last podcast, that I also have really a new assignment mandate from the Lord that we're to not only get this college and university really strong, but as we do to pass on what we're learning. I think we're going to need 20 to 30 of these types of universities across America to meet the need of the pastors. Um um I have a vision to raise up a 100,000 new pastors in the next 25 years. And so I think we can do it if we'll all work together. So well, and as always, if especially a bunch of you are coming to Birmingham for our our Grow Leader Conference is happening at the end of July. Uh, if you're ever in Birmingham, maybe for one of our one days, you have to see the college. Take some time and visit it and see it. And uh, love your heart. You Grow Leader started out of a a heart to help churches and to resource churches. And already there are some people listening right now that have a vision for a college in their church or in their area. And we're already doing everything we can to try to help them. Exactly. I'm very very very excited about it. Sorry.
All right. So, I barely know the topic today. So, and I did that intentionally. I usually don't do this to you where I don't tell you what I want to talk about because I want you to ask me questions because I'm I'm actually dealing with a dilemma right now. Okay. And the dilemma is, I think I'm teaching something to churches that should be very clear, and I'm finding out it's not. And it's a little frustrating to me um because I'm a teacher. I want people to go, "Oh, I got it. I could do it." But over and over we are we keep getting asked the questions about, man, I can't help me, help me develop leaders. I get we always get, I would say Matt, it's 80% of the questions that are coming to me um, you know, formally like through some kind of online request or just in conversation. What's your greatest need? Developing leaders. Like, really? And yeah, in discipleship, man, just really, we're struggling with developing leaders and discipleship. And and I'm thinking, it feels like this is all I teach, right? Is developing leaders and discipleship. And so I'm reluctant to bring more content to this topic because I think I've already made it really clear and it obviously isn't because it keeps being the question that everyone asks. So, I don't know if it's a knowledge situation or an execution issue, but now I'm asking pastors, where's the disconnect? In fact, I just got off of our monthly mentoring, which by the way, pastors, if you're not a subscriber to the monthly mentoring, we just had the best conversation. It's it's pastors who come on a monthly phone call with me. And unlike this format, it can be a two-way dialogue where you get to ask questions. I I get to answer them. And in this case, I asked them the questions. I said, "Guys, why are you still asking about leadership development and discipleship?" And they gave me some feedback. I I don't still feel like I fully understand it, Matt. And then we we just came out of the R conference. We had the Bara group there. Yeah. Who had that amazing ability to do live surveys of the congregation of the attendees and then the results in real time on the screen. And they asked the question, "Where does your church need the most training?" And and and my mind went to every place, but what ended up being the answer and there were 10 options. There were at least 10 options. And and and I was thinking, well, it's got to be that one. And it was the lowest. So it shows what I don't know about what pastors need need, which actually again insults me a little bit because I I I I want to be in touch. And the number one overwhelming response was leadership development and discipleship. And I'm thinking, why is this still a disconnect? And so for the past couple of weeks since the R conference, Matt, I've been studying. I'm bringing you content to the Grow Leader Conference uh in July. But I've got some starter thoughts that I wanted to pass on to the and I didn't give them to you because I want you to ask questions. And I think you might even have a better connect because you're a campus pastor on the development of leaders. You do it every day that I need actually. I'm on the podcast today not as the expert. I'm as the learner. I need to understand this better. I don't understand why people have a hard time developing leaders because to me, it's it's actually very simple. So can I can I ask a question because you've been doing this a long time? So 40 years in ministry. Do do the leaders that we're developing, do they change? Do do how how the developing leader does it, do they they change in the time they have available? Do they do you think that we have to keep adjusting as the developers of leaders? I don't think it's any different than it has been. You have yes, you always have to pivot and change and and and address the current cultural norms, but they we had our own set of them early on too. It wasn't like there were none. So I don't think it's any harder. I I again, I I I don't know where the disconnect is. I here's what I do know and that and and I don't know that I've ever taught this before and which I'm so excited to share this with the audience today that in my mind, I was kind of retracing like why is this so clear to me and not so clear to other people and here's what I've come up with. You tell me if I got it or not. Look, the pressure's on me. I'm a listener today. So before the podcast began, I said, Matt, I need you to step into the shoes of the pastor that's listening to this right now and ask me some questions and and connect. Okay. So the first, it begins, I've never really taught it this way. It begins with a theological foundation that I believe every person is a leader and to use the Bible's terms is a minister. That every member, every believer is a minister. So, it be in my mind, the reason why this is easy for me because I think they already are. And it's a mandate from God that they are supposed to take the gifts, the callings, the abilities, the passions inside of them and use it to influence other people. And I'm using the term leader. Let me back up and say the term leader is not how most people define leader. Most people define leader as the boss, right? The person in charge, right? The person on the stage. I'm using the John Maxwell definition of leader as it's using your influence. Leadership is influence. And everybody has the potential to influence someone. Even the shyest person, you know, the person who's not very sanguine, maybe not very outspoken, you still have a gift. And according to the Bible, you have a ministry that you're to use to influence other people. So if you don't believe that at the core that every single person in your church has a gift, the Bible uses the word in in the in the book of Ephesians uses the word grace. To each one grace has been given. And the word grace is charis. It's that divine enablement. There is something inside of every single person that God uniquely gave you and you are to use this to influence others for eternal and kingdom purposes. And I think it all begins with I truly believe that. And I also truly believe that's not my job to be the minister around here, right? That every minister is a member. The Bible goes on to say in Ephesians 4, again, you have to have this theological foundation or you won't be a good developer of leaders. That the main purpose of a pastor or the five-fold ministry, the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher is to equip saints to do ministry. So, I'm not supposed to be the minister. I'm supposed to be the equipper of ministers.
So, how how do you you tell a story that we've shown for years and years in the Step One portion of our Growth Track, which is when you tell a story about you and Buzz, right, out for lunch, you had to go on a journey of teaching this to everybody you came in contact with. Well, and that's what I'm again, I'm trying to retrace. Why is this not connecting with the audience? Why are they still asking something that I keep teaching? And I don't I don't think it's I don't think that is clear in their minds, too. I I don't no no no no clear than it was in Buzz's mind. That that story is the story of me meeting with this guy in the first year of the church. I was just going to lunches every single day trying to meet new people and trying to meet the new people of our church. And and he saw someone across the room that he knew and he goes, "Oh, I want you to meet my friend. He's over there eating." I said, "Sure." So he waved at his friend. His friend gets up and comes over to our table. Of course, I stand up from our table, shook his hand. And Buzz, his name was his name was William Borland, but they call him Buzz. That was his nickname. Buzz in introduces his friend to me and introduces me as his preacher. He goes, "Oh, so and so, I want you to meet my new preacher." And I have never been called somebody's preacher. Of course, he said in the Alabama vernacular, "Preacher." He's a preacher. You're my preacher. And I shook, "Hey, I'm his preacher." you know. So I shook his hand and the guy went back to his table and we sat down and I looked across the table. I said, "Buzz, I am not your preacher." And he goes, "Oh yeah, you're my preacher." I said, "What do you think that is?" He goes, "Oh yeah, but your job is to study for and give me a good sermon and so when we walk out on Sunday, I can say good sermon, preacher, and then you're going to go to the hospitals between between all of that." And I said, "That is not what I'm doing. If that's what you signed up for when you came to the church, you signed up for the wrong thing." I said, "Because you're the preacher." and his eyes got big goes, "Oh my God, no, I can't preach." I said, "No, Buzz, you need to understand that I am going to raise up every person in our church, regardless of their gifting, personality. You have something inside of you that I'm going to discover and you're to use that for kingdom purposes." And it's called ministry, which makes you the preacher. I'm going to be the equipper. I am not going to the hospitals. I'm going to find the people who have mercy gifts and who have faith gifts. And we're going to raise up an army of people who love being in those settings to pray for people. and we're going to find the thing that's inside of you. And this is a theological foundation, pastors, that if you don't understand and believe, you can't be a good leadership developer. And I'm wondering, Matt, if I've not emphasized this enough, if that I haven't taught the theology of you're not supposed to be the big deal, you're not supposed to be the minister. And on on the other hand, every person in your church has a ministry. There is a grace, a charis on their life. that they have to discover. It needs to be developed and then deployed to to make a difference for kingdom purposes. They are to use their influence and then therefore that makes them a leader. What's how do you do leadership development? You have to believe that.
You've said for years, "Never let vision outpace leadership." And I think I have some friends that are pastors. It is so easy for me to get so excited about what I want to get done that I'll start kind of forcing people into situations. Well, that actually leads me to the second thing that I've not taught. Okay. You and you don't even know my notes. I don't know your notes. I'm looking at them. So, and that is there has to be a shift in the mindset of the pastor that therefore gets communicated to the congregation that I'm not developing you because I have a need. I'm developing you because you have a need. That's so good. So, I think we have I think we have wanted to develop leaders and disciple people because it's going to help us run the church better. And I think we're we're filling dream team roles instead of developing people. And you cannot start this process of developing leaders and discipling people with you as the one who gets rewarded at the end of this. The goal of this isn't because I have a need. It is because you have a need. And the need you have is there's something in you that you may have not even discovered, right? But it needs to be discovered, developed, and deployed. So I have to I have to actually develop leaders not thinking about what the reward or the outcome is going to be. And there is going to be an outcome. Your your church is going to do better and there are going to be more people that you can use in those needs. But I think I think there needs to be a shift in your mindset because now if you're communicating anything leadership development, if you're announcing any Growth Track, if you're announcing any process and it even comes across to them that and if you do this, man, our church is going to run better and we need some help and my God, we don't have enough people in children's church. I think you you actually are working against the very process. And maybe that's the disconnect.
So you've heard me say and I'm I'm going to say it in the most extreme way right now. Okay? And I've said this on numerous occasions that if we go through a gift assessment process and there is no one in our church who feels called to minister to kids, then we're going to shut the nursery and children's church down. We won't have a kids ministry because I don't want to have volunteers and people serving in an area that they aren't gifted. Now, I can say that with confidence because I know right that Jesus is head of the church. By the way, the head is where the brains are. The this brain, the head organizes and develops all the parts of the body. We're the body parts. He's the head. And he will always make sure that everything that's needed in the body is there. Let me say it this way. Everything you need in your church is already in your church. Say that again. That's so good. So, so that you're not even having to recruit, you're having to discover. It's already there. God makes sure of that because he does the gifting. So, everybody that needs to do whatever. In fact, if you I've studied this so in depth to study where the gift mixes are on average throughout churches all across the world, literally. And it's interesting like 11% have some type of an outreach type bent to their gift mix, which is about the number of people you need doing outreach. We don't need 100% of it because then who's going to sing? Who's going to take care of kids? Who's going to sweep floors? Who's going to preach? So, so the gift mixes, the body parts are so important. And it's interesting, Matt, because just I think there's just enough people in your church who do love ministering to kids and care about that and have a gift mix that makes them good with children in those settings. And then there's others who don't. And then what would it look like if it didn't begin with my need? Man, we need somebody to be in our nurseries and children's church, but what if we just discovered knowing that it's automatically going to fill all those? I tr I so totally believe that. In fact, the only reason we have a prison ministry because there was a person named Randy Walker who had a gift mix, a special higher than normal ability to minister into that prison setting. And I didn't start it because I wanted a prison ministry. I started because I believed in Randy and I wanted to develop Randy. And out of it came a prison ministry. And I think we have to shift our mindsets.
So, even in the culture we have here, which we talk about this a lot, but even here, you know, I'll go to a Step Three of the Growth Track, which is where people pick a team where they get to choose their team. And people will walk up to me and they'll say, "Hey, Matt, where do you need me?" Right. And I'll say, "What do you mean?" Just tell me where you need me and I'll serve there. And I'm And I won't do it. I'll say, "Man, I'm I'm not going to tell you that. I really want the Holy Spirit to lead that." Exactly. And I think in most places, they would say, "Oh my God, thank you for asking. We sure need somebody to set up tables on Saturday for this event." or and and if they don't have that gift mix for organization and the Bible calls it the the spiritual gift of helps, then you're going to you're going to get a person who will say yes. Yeah. And then but the fire is going to burn out because they didn't they don't have that charis, that grace gift that God puts that actually has this inherent motivation. So why do we have 22,000 active volunteers at Highlands? It's because we didn't start with our needs, we started with theirs, right? Does that make sense? It does. But I I do think though, but even being in it, it's so easy to drift to the other side and start thinking plug people in. And I because it's slower. That's what I'm I'm trying to solve this disconnect. And I think it begins again with a healthy theology that you have to believe every person has a leadership/ministry grace gift in their life to be used. If you don't believe that, you won't you won't see people the right way. And then you have to start with developing them and what's in it for them and their needs. and and what God's put inside of them instead of your needs. And the third one is the process of identifying and now getting these leaders in a leadership development. So I had this discussion with a bunch of pastors and they say things like, "Yeah, we we do the Growth Track just like you said or whatever." But the Growth Track is a tool, right? It's not an end-all. Like it won't do the work for you. The truth of the matter is real leadership development and discipleship happens organically at lunches, hallway conversations, in small groups. And I think what we've effectively done first with our staff, then to our Dream Team is that we've taught people to to to see every opportunity um in small groups, lunch as you're in you're in the leadership setting now. Develop the leaders. And what does that mean? In fact, I had one of the pastors that I was I was trying to explain this to, he got hung up. It didn't it didn't land. He goes he goes, "Yeah, we're discipling people in Freedom Groups." And I said, "No, no, no. You can disciple people in get out of debt groups. You can disciple people in marriage groups, in parenting groups." That the group topic is the hook that gets them there. So, you can ask the questions, "Hey, how's your how's your relationship with God? How's your marriage? What are you struggling with? Where are you failing? Where where do you feel like you're succeeding? That that real discipleship and leadership development isn't the Growth Track. Now, we use the Growth Track as a tool, but real discipleship happens. For Tammy and me, it was in seven years of parenting small group that praise God, they learned how to be better parents. But that wasn't while they were there. Yeah. They were there so we could look at their marriage and ask them about, man, are you spending did you pray today? Are you reading your Bible? How's it going? You know, um, how you guys doing financially? The the the the are you is that making sense? And I think that's another disconnect. The more I talk to pastors is they're they're leaning too much on this this system, this Growth Track system, like, okay, that's the place where everybody gets developed. No, no, no. The development of leaders and discipleship happens organically when iron sharpens iron. And so every setting um, every setting you're in, you disciple. So that I did that with our staff. We I that's that's my story. We'd go to lunch, but we didn't go to lunch to have chips and salsa. We went to lunch to have conversation. We used chips and salsa to gather us, but it was a chance for me to say, "Man, how's your marriage going, man? How's your kiddos? Anything you're struggling with? Hey, is there any area I can help you with, Matt?" And and is that making sense? I mean, I think too, we we do get kind of we have great systems and you you are so systems-minded, but how organic everything is probably doesn't get talked about enough. Or organic ministry takes longer but has a much longer payoff down the road. And so I would even say though for the senior pastor listening or the pastor listening, when's the last time you said something into someone's life like spoke it into them? Because the Growth Track won't do that. Exactly. You looked at me and said, "Hey, man, are you really doing what God's called you to do?" And I was like, "Man, is it I'm about to get rebuked." It was a positive thing. You were saying, "Because I see more like here's some options. Let's if you want to talk about it later, let me know. We'll talk about it." And you have to say it to the person to get them to step into it. And and that's the next point is that now you have to create opportunities for that to happen. So, I was looking, pastor, I'm trying to teach you how to do leadership development. I was looking for opportunities to to put into my week um where I could ask questions like that. Hey, man, are you doing what you really feel called to do? So that because this is what leadership development is and then when they say, "Yeah, man, I really feel like I'm called to more." Hey, then do why don't you go jump on the Growth Track? So the Growth Track now becomes a tool, not the place that it actually happens. But so so what are those opportunities? Thought. So in my heyday in the earlier parts of the church when I wasn't leading a college and all these other things, man, I had four or five small groups. Most of them were on in the mornings. I would gather men, I would go to breakfasts, asking questions, developing people um, the Growth Track, small groups. My wife, as I said, had a small group, but we also had what I called a working date night. So we had a personal date night, just Tammy and me, every week. But then we reserve served one night of the week where she and I got with two other couples, sat at a table, enjoyed a meal together, but for the purposes of leadership development and discipleship, asking them questions. Man, tell me what you're dreaming about. Tell me what you're what you're I like to call it the holy discontent. What what what what's going on in the world that you have a hard time living with in that condition? By the way, it's a great question to ask someone to find out what where their core p What would be the answer to that question for you, by the way? Families, young families. See helping them. Yeah. And so, so then I now I know to lean into that. You know, Matt, you probably should would you like to lead a small group? I'll help you find the curriculum where you can pour into young families and because it's so hard. It's it's hard work, man. When you especially you got a big old family, kiddos and a lot of moving parts and and now now and this is leadership development and it the Growth Track didn't do it. A a meal together did it. Does that make sense? It makes total sense.
Can you talk about because you taught this to us too. You you can be a great leadership developer and overinvest in one person when you could be developing 10 or 15. I always that's a great point because I always I did some one-on-ones, but it was mostly in group settings because you can actually get a lot done in group settings like again, small groups, at at dinners and lunches. I mean, I did leadership lunches with the staff, get eight eight people at the table and just uh I told them, "I'll buy the meal if you'll come with a question." And and that and that's leadership development and developing if you develop a group, you're developing a culture where now they're developing each other. I was I was actually going to say that next. And then when you when you say, "Okay, man, we need to go back to the office. Hey, by the way, you need to you need to do a lunch. Oh, you need to you need to get a a table together and do the same thing." And now you get this ripple effect, this reproductive effect.
Last thing I want to say, I know we're running out of time, is one of the questions that I keep getting is, and I'm not trying to be demeaning to pastors who are desperately trying to figure it out, but it it shocks me that this is a question, Matt, that okay, I've got them in the meeting. What should the training be? Okay. Like, and they what they're asking is what is the curriculum? What should I teach them? What Okay, and this is and y'all know me. I I take complicated things and make them simple. I'm getting ready to make it so simple, it's going to be ridiculous. You start with what they need. Like what do I teach them what they need? Now, how do you find out what they need? There's only one way is if you ask questions. Yeah. So, I'll say, Matt, man, how how's your daily time in God's word? You know what, PC? I don't even know where to start. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm just I open it and I don't even know where to start. Okay. Then I stop there and I'm gonna disciple you in reading your Bible. If you answered, "Oh, man. NPC. I I um I read eight chapters a day. Take a bunch of notes." Like, dude, move on. Move on. You don't need a disciple. They're better at you in that area. Don't talk about it. I'm not trying to make this complicated. By the way, let me add this to it, too. Start with their spiritual life. So, prayer, Bible reading, just spiritual disciplines. Move to their relationships, okay? Marriage, family, dating, whatever it is. Then move to some of the the parts of life that all of us like finances, attitude, um, career, calling, move, then move into spiritual gifts. Now we're making it more proactive. Now we're thinking about, man, what what do you dream about? What do you care about? What do you want to change? What do you want? Are you following what I'm saying? Absolutely. And and where they give you great answers, move on. Where they they go, they don't know what you're talking about. Stop. Disciple and share with them. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think too, just to from being around you so long and just around the culture here at Highlands, you can't ever stop saying it. You say it every time you get in front of the staff, every time we met together, you have to say it all the time because it will drop off. People will stop doing it. There's a gravitational pull back to just I'm going to hang out with my people, the people that are already kind of that are developed. And it's so much fun actually to be a part of the development of someone's life. I want to close with this. If you need a grid to know how to disciple because one of the questions that people are asking in the church world right right now is what is discipleship and in my mind, it begins with what God wants for us. So what does God want for us? Well, he wants to be in a relationship. We call it know God. He wants to help you through your issues. We call it find freedom. He wants you to discover your purpose. So that's your spiritual gifts. And then he wants you to go do something, right? I would disciple people the same way. Let's start with their spiritual relationship. This is talk about you and God. You and God. You and God. And disciple them there. Move to their pain points, their addictions, their habits, their sins, their hurts, their wounds. Just tell me about your dad. Tell me about tell me about growing up. Tell me about the thing in your heart that makes you cry. Like, and hang and and help them find freedom. Then move into man, what are you called to? What are you dreaming about? And then finally, what are you doing? And if you decide, you want to disciple in my mind, you have to look no further than the four things that God has always wanted for people.
So, I know you've already said it. I'm thinking like a like a listener. Um, I'm a pastor who's listening and I feel like I man, I've not done a great job in this. Where do I start tomorrow? Tomorrow, what do I do first? I'd start two two places. I would start with my staff and I would start asking these questions, having these meetings, and discipling them. You should do an an audit of who they are, where they are, because you don't know how to disciple if you don't know where they are. Allow them to ask you questions, man. Uh, places they want to grow, and then also do it to the congregation. You before the Growth Track and before a Dream Team, I was I was doing this in small groups. I mean, yeah, we have a guy in our church named Dwayne. I led him to the Lord in a small group, personally discipled him, and now he's on the board of Highlands College and gives millions of dollars to Highlands College. Okay. But that was 24 years of pouring into a man's life. And that is something that all of us can start doing today is is just start a small group. And then you and all of us have the time to do it either in the early part of the day at lunch or in an evening. Find the time that works best for you and and and start spending time. Once again, you didn't do it because of what Dwayne could do for you. He did it because you love had no idea he would turn into the leader he is today. And that's key. Exactly. I was doing it because he was he was leaning in and wanting to know God. Yep. So again, such a great reminder. I'm I'm challenged even. I'm like, "All right, I need to step it back up in a couple areas." Great reminder for all of us because it will stop. You get so busy doing it, you'll forget to keep developing leaders. This way, this is the mo outside of you spending time with God and preparing for messages, etc. Pastor, this is the most important activity you'll do is is spending time organically developing and discipling leaders. PC bringing us wisdom. That's Papa Chris. That's Papa Chris helping us today. Appreciate that.
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