Deadlines for the Dead: Understanding the Expiry of Letters of Administration.Part 2

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Good afternoon and good evening to everybody who has joined us. Sorry, I'm I'm told there's something wrong with my sound. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to everybody who has joined us from wherever you have joined us from. It is our honor and privilege to be having, for a second week in a row, Mr. Maxim Mutingua, a senior advocate by any measure, uh, who has come to discuss this topic with us: deadlines for the dead, understanding the expiry of letters of administration.

We are first of all very happy to have you all here. My name is Ellison Kohhunga, otherwise known as the lawyer's lawyer. Honored and privileged to be here with you all. I'm here with Alfred Muyaka. I think Marci will be joining us shortly. And uh, we are really going back on the conversation we had last week. For those of you who joined us last week, um, in two days' time, many people's letters of administration in this country will be expiring. Letters of administration and grant of probate are things we were told last week that they, when you die, the law recognizes you as having died in only two ways: You die with or without a will. You die tested or intestate. And we were told about the different is, and for those of you who are not conversant with the legal processes, we are here for you. We shall help you, walk you through these processes as simply as possible.

As you all know, this is a lawyers' forum. We try as much as possible to provide as much information to the legal fraternity and to our colleagues at the bar and to enrich the discussion of law in the Republic of Uganda. So allow me first of all to welcome Mr. Mutabingua. Mr. Mabingo is a senior advocate; he has been in practice, he told us, since 1998. He has been in the courtrooms every single day. At one time, he was well known for representing the mighty Red Pepper. Um, he never got any suits for Mr. Hina, but I think other other people may have had a suit here or there. Um, but more than that, he has been a very prolific and prominent advocate in the courts of this country. And on this particular subject of family law, he's known as the coa of the family law specimen in the country, this family law group. So there's no better person to answer these questions.

Now, the purpose of why we have repeated this conversation: Many of you sent us questions, and we felt, and many people told us, that it would be important to have this conversation again as the letters of administration start to expire. And the idea is that we will have this conversation again, and today more than last time we shall try as much as possible to include as many of your questions as possible. We are live on X, on YouTube, and on Tik Tok, and uh, there are people here who do these things, and so we're live on all those platforms, and as much as possible we want to bring the information to you. So otherwise, thank you so much from joining for joining us from wherever you're joining us from. Welcome to this nobody can stop reggae discussions, and uh, over to you Mr. Mutabinga. How are you sir? And we hope you've had a wonderful week.

I'm fine sir. Thank you very much. Thank you very much and team, and I'm very honored and privileged for being invited again to talk about this important topic which has generated a lot of debate. Thank you very much Ed and team, and and I'm very privileged, I'm very privileged and honored to be called back to talk about this important topic which has generated a lot of debate in the population. Uh, after our discussion last week, uh, there is a lot of debate which has been generated in the population, in the whole country actually, people are calling me from very far, as far as Kungu, as far as Guru, as far as Ara; everybody's calling me because of that discussion, and it is because this law of succession touches everybody, it touches everybody, the state of the of the touches everybody, there's no— if I can hear you clearly, yes, maybe let's just give it a minute and try and fix that. I don't know if you— me a thumbs up, but I think um, we were missing a lot of what you said, Mr. Um um, let me just make sure that we are all on my hope uh, I I don't know if you could all hear Mr. But uh, in case you couldn't um, we are um, in case you couldn't um, please Um, I think this is— Are we on? You seem to be muted. Okay. Hope you can all hear me. Can you hear me? M, wait another link this where I saw that there were connection issues, actually I saw the stuff when that's when I started asking you [Music] whether first it's okay, it's— Oh, change now. Way the problem. Okay. Okay. I've is but he's a listener. Speaker is slow.

Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to everybody who has joined us from wherever you've joined us before. But like we always say, when Elon Musk hosted Donald Trump on Twitter, the thing crashed. So I think Mr. Mutingo is like Donald Trump, or I don't know, or maybe Elon Musk. But again, welcome to everybody who has joined us. Sorry for the technical glitches we are having. Uh, we are discussing the topic deadlines for the dead, understanding the expiry of letters of administration, and uh, last week we had this conversation with Mr. Maxim Mutabingua. Mr. Maxim Mutabingua is a senior advocate of the courts of judicature of Uganda. He has practiced law all over the country. He has a deep and proper understanding of the law. He has a feel for it. We don't know the the the where he was legally formed, but wherever he was formed he has come out to be a powerful legal advocate and very knowledgeable on the subject that is before us today.

Um, just as a as a as a as a takeback, we are looking at the issue of expiry of letters of administration and section, I think it is now section uh, it is now it is it is now section I think 341 of the succession act uh of of the succession amendment act um which provides that uh a grant of probate or letters of administration issued by a court of competent jurisdiction before the coming into force of this act shall remain valid for a period of 3 years after the coming into force of this act. The act came into force on the 31st of May 2022, and three years have come, and the three years are going in two days, and so we have with us someone to take us through this subject, to hold our hands and help us understand them. We've received many questions from many people, and we decided to have this conversation again. Today we want to mainly focus on your questions and not ours. Please feel free to ask questions, send them in the chat, but for now allow me to first and foremost welcome Mr. Sorry for the technical glitch that we had. You're most welcome to our regga spaces and uh, as you know sir, nobody can stop rea, but maybe if you could just say uh hello to everybody and um your your opening remarks.

Good evening listeners and viewers and team. Thank you very much for inviting me back to this forum. I'm very honored and humbled to have been called back to talk about this important topic. Uh, after our discussion last week, I got so many calls from all over the country. Almost everybody was calling me to ask me about this important topic of succession. And as you well know, uh, succession touches almost everybody. So every every citizen, everybody is concerned, especially the lawyers and non-lawyers alike, everybody's is interested in this topic. So I'm very glad to be invited back, Edison and team. Thank you very much.

Okay. Thank you. I think maybe we'll hit we'll hit it off immediately. We hit off immediately. And one of the questions which has really um come up is still a what I would call a a a definition question. You could just help us. I know I've said it, but if you could just take us again very briefly through an overview of of of of the law of succession. And the primary question is what we are really asking is when do letters of administration expire, and after they expire what happens next? Over to you Mr. Minga.

Thank you very much. Last week we talked about probate and administration. But now I'm asked to explain about letters of administration and when they will expire, and probate and probate letters, administration and probate, and when they will expire. Uh, letters of administration and probate uh of two different categories. We are talking about two different categories. One, we are talking about letters of administration and probate uh which were granted by court before the coming into force of the succession amendment act. And the succession amendment act came into force on the 31st day of May 2022. And those grants are provided for in the succession amendment act under section 341. And those grants which were made before the on or before the 31st day of May 2022, according to the amendment act uh section 341 subsection 2 and subsection 3, all those grants are going to expire on the 31st day of May 2025. When the 31st day of May is it Monday or it is Sunday? So they're expiring on Saturday. Then we have another category of letters of administration which were granted after the coming into force of this succession amendment act, which were granted after the 31st day of May 2022. Those ones have a lifespan of only two years only. So the one, the other ones have a lifespan of 3 years. Then these ones which were granted after the coming of this act have only a lifespan of two years. So these ones now they will expire on the 31st day of May 2025. So what happens when the the letters administration expires? Everybody's asking me about this question. What happens when these letters expire? It's becoming a very big issue. Everybody's worried. Actually, there is a stampede now. Yes. Now, can court, does court have power to renew these letters or legislation? Everybody's asking himself about that one. Actually, I took trouble and even I moved to family court and asked you people what is going to happen, are you going to renew? Are you going to extend? But my personal view, according to me, these letters, when they expire, this is my personal view, when they expire, I don't think court has any authority to extend them or to renew them, have already died. Now you see under section 341 uh subsection four, you see what it says, this is about extension about these grants. Actually, there is a law: A grant of probate or letters administration referred to in subsection two and three may, on application to court by the executor of an estate, be extended for a reason of a period determined by court. So they can be extended. But which grants can be extended? In my opinion, the grants which can be extended are those ones which have not expired. You cannot extend or renew a grant which has expired because it is no longer a grant. So if you want your grant to be renewed, you must apply for extension before expire thereof, before before the 31st of May uh 2025. So it means you have only uh you have only tomorrow and Friday to apply for extension of these grants, otherwise the expire does not have any authority to renew them or to extend them, and then it means uh you have to go back to apply for it as verification, aration, ar— that is my view, but when I went to family court and I asked the judicial officers they said no, we shall have power to to renew, not to extend. But can you renew the grant of letters of administration which has expired? In my opinion? No. So we have only two days to apply for extension of the life of these grants of letters of administration. Otherwise, we we have to go back to the whole process of applying for a fresh grant, either by the administrator whose grant has expired or a fresh person can apply for a fresh grant. Okay, that is my view.

Okay, I I've and and that view is very interesting. But there I don't know there's even decisions I think of the court. Someone has told us of a decision of of the court in Barara, the high court in Imbara, that rejected an application before and said you must only apply after they've expired. So the question is, is there a a a uniform interpretation of of the law on this thing or is or is the law going to is is the law still unclear and undefined?

Yeah, the law is very unclear. There's no uniformity because each judicial officer is interpreting the law in his or her own way because I I I heard there is somebody who applied, David, for extension of these of the time of these letters of administration, but the judicial officer said no, the the grant has not expired, that you cannot apply for extension of of a grant which has not expired. That is the understanding of regal visa, that if the letters have not expired, how do you apply for renewal for extension of time, but in my opinion you apply for extension when the grant still has life. So if it is dead, you cannot you cannot apply for extension. Now I give you I give you an example: We advocates, every year we apply for renewal of our practicing certificate. You understand? Yes. So if my PC has expired then I don't I I apply for for renew, but I go through the same procedure. Yes. Yes. There must be a proof of chambers. You must file your NSSA for Korean certificate. You must do ABC. So actually you get a new one, like now we have got the ones of 2025. You cannot you cannot refer to the one of 2024. So you see it is no longer operative. It is no longer in operation. It has died. M, so this is what is going to happen to the letters of administration, legally maybe use it in powers I don't know from from where to renew. In my opinion, does not have any authority to renew these grants which will expire on 31st day of May 2025, that is my opinion, and which I think is right. Such a day is end of the dead will die properly on Saturday; they die on Saturday. So everybody over there, you have you still have two days, you still have tomorrow, you still have to even on Friday to apply for extension of uh these grants of letters of administration, otherwise on Saturday you are no longer an administrator, another person is going to apply for a grant, and then you'll be granted— you are you you are no longer an administrator after Friday. And when they're making this application, there's this thing called an inventory that you spoke about last week. Yes, there are some people who are saying why do I have to do any of that? Why should I allow— I think there was a question on on Tik Tok where someone was saying um my I I don't need any of those for us we are going to organize our things away from that system. So tell us first of all why do they need to apply for these letters? What's the legal effect of if it expires and you leave it alone and nobody's administering the estate? What is the legal effect? And then for those who want to apply um, say some a lot of people have been holding property for for decades as administrators, there's no problem with the beneficiaries, they're handling the estates together, when the property when when the grant expire before Saturday, if this person has not filed an inventory, what is the inventory, why should it be filed, and can you apply for these extensions without the inventory? I think that's a question I'm seeing coming up.

Uh, thank you very much. Uh, last week we talked about an inventory. An inventory uh when somebody has become an administrator or executor of the will. Uh, he compiles a list of the properties of the deceased. List of the properties. List of debts. List of credits of the deceased. He compiles them into a list and he files that list in court within 6 months. It is a requirement of the law. That is what we call an an inventory. Then an account, he compiles the list of the properties of the deceased person in a list and how he has distributed those properties to the beneficiaries. Actually, I have seen the format of the of the inventory, even the beneficiaries sign against the properties they have taken in in what in the final account, and he files that that that document in court; that is what you call the final account. It is a requirement of the law, you have to file an inventory within 6 months from the date of the grant. Then it is a requirement of the to file uh the final accounts within one year after the the the what the issuance of the grant. It is a requirement of the law. So you are talking, you are saying that to extend, do you need the inventory? Do you need the the the uh the final accounts? Uh, you see if you didn't file those documents within the prescribed time, you first have to file them, but you must apply for extension of time also, you must file an application for extension of time to file an inventory. Actually, now what we we do, like what I have been doing, I make an omnibus application, I I even I made an application today and I'm going to file it tomorrow on behalf of my client because he came with a lot of stamps. So I had made an omnibus application, one to um an application to extend the the lifespan of the grant of letters of administration. Then I also applied for uh extension of time for filing an inventory and also I applied for extension of time for filing the final accounts, and I put them in one application. So I'm filing that omnibus application, and it serves the the purpose because you cannot do anything, you cannot administer of the deceased if you have not filed an inventory. First of all, an inventory, you cannot, they cannot allow you to do anything, you have first to file an inventory. Even even these people who have been having uh the letters of administration which have not expired, even to get a certified copy of the grant of the letters of administration from court, they ask you, have you filed an inventory? Did you file an inventory? No. First apply for extension of time within which file an inventory. Then when that application is heard and you are granted time uh then you first file an inventory and then you can go ahead. Like now I I have a client. He had not filed an inventory and he came to my office and then we applied for extension of time to file an inventory. Then the judge said I will send my decision on on what on on online. So the decision was was sent online, but my client did not see it and he was given only two weeks to file an inventory. So by the time he saw the the the ruling, the two weeks had expired. So now I'm again now applying for extension of time because he was given a period of two weeks to file an inventory, but by the time he saw the the ruling online, the two weeks had expired. So now I'm repeating the the application, but I'm making application so extension of time to extend the grant, extension of time to file an inventory, even I have the inventory and I have the the final accounts, but I cannot file them because there's no extension of time, so you have first comply with the law and apply for extension of time to file an an inventory. And now I'm repeating it because the two weeks which was granted have already expired, so we have to comply with the law, you cannot administer of the deceased if you don't follow the law, and the law, the first step after after getting the grant is to file an inventory. Then the second one is to file uh the final accounts in one year, and then that final accounts is also followed by an affidavit. You file the file accounts in court followed by verified, they say verified by an affidavit, that's what the section of the law says, and then when court receives that affidavity, it sends two copies to the administrator general, and then that is when the estate is is wound up, so we have no shortcut [Music] okay, thank you Mr. I have one comment from here from the lawyer who doesn't accept bribes as if okay, now the first question is expiring on 31st May, so we are talking of applying, so this one is asking what's the process for renewal administration and the cost involved, what's how do we apply, is it by letter, what do we need to attach, how much is involved, and how how long does— Does it take? I think this is this Madame Hope is asking the process of renewal of letters of administration. What how do you apply, the judgments we need to to to have, even the cost involved? Uh, how do you

Apply for renewal of letters of administration? By renewal, I mean those letters, a grant which still has life. Yes, as I have already explained. So how would, what would we do to renew? Uh, according to the law, you know, there is this general, all applications to court, uh, they must be made by notes of motion. So you don't make a letter; there is a legal document called notes of motion. So we make a note of motion then supported by an affidavit.

But if you look at section 54 of the amendment act, section 54 is very clear and very strict. You see now the framers of this law wanted to protect the beneficiaries because the administrators have been cheating the beneficiaries. Actually, last last week I made a comment here which generated a lot of of of comments and bet when I said that the lawyers were cheating the administrators and the beneficiaries, and I was very right. Lawyers are freeing beneficiaries because, like I told you, of administration, it is not a lot of money—talk about 1 million shillings, 2 million shillings—but the the the lawyers have been have been asking for payment in kind, and it takes that is a lot of money because he capitalizes on the ignorance of the what of the of the of the client who doesn't know the law. Because like I I have seen many clients, they think that going to court and get there and getting the latest valuation is a big deal. It is a small deal according to the remuneration and taxation of rules; even the fees are provided there, but the lawyers don't want to show that one, so they go ahead and they charge exorbitant sums of money and they cheat the the beneficiaries of the estate. And somebody has died, has left orphans; you cheat them, then you see, God will punish you. So there I was right; whoever has been asking me, especially the advocates, have been attacking me that you don't you get money. I have never cheated any beneficiary. I have never cheated anybody. I have never cheated any administrator.

Uh, then back to the the the question: renewal of letters of administration. What does it take? Everybody should know this. Somebody wants to apply for extension of time. What does it take? Apply for renewal. The framers of this wanted to protect the beneficiaries, and they made very very stringent section 4. So what I want to to say here is that one, you must make an application by way of note of motion, then you make an affidavit supporting it. Yes. In addition to that, now hear this: you must get consent of all the beneficiaries; all the beneficiaries must consent to your application of extension of time. And there's a problem which has arisen here. Some beneficiaries are staying in Uganda. Some beneficiaries are staying outside Uganda. But the law says all beneficiaries. So you have to hunt down all the beneficiaries, and they have to consent to your application. And I have seen in quotes what happens. All the beneficiaries have to be there. There's no out; even these ones who are outside the country, they put them online. They use Zoom and other other methods. But they must put them online. Then another requirement: you must pro you must prove to court that it is in the interest of all the beneficiaries to extend the the the period. You must prove that it is in the interest of all the beneficiaries. Don't prove that one; extension is not going to be granted to you. Then you must have also have complied with the provisions of this act or any condition of which the proet was granted. You must have uh complied with all those; this subsection is consent of all the beneficiaries. So you can see now it is very stringent. You you you just you just don't walk to court and then you apply for extension, and it is granted to you. No, there are conditions now, yes, which conditions are very stringent. Like imagine, how do you get all the beneficiaries? Like today I was applying for for extension; uh, the beneficiaries are seven, but two are outside of the country, and we are left with only two days, so what do we do? So that I don't know what we are going to do, but I have said maybe they can bring them by email, and we are expecting them tomorrow, but they have to consent, and you have to attach the consent; your application has to be followed by the to to be accompanied by the consent of the beneficiaries. So this law, uh, the framers of this law wanted to protect the interest of the beneficiaries, and now everything you do as an administrator, uh, the beneficiaries have to consent. So that is what it takes to apply for extension of the grant of letters of administration. Yes.

Maybe just to add on that. Yes. If allies are consulting and then you saying initially you mentioned of having them as respondents. Yes. Yes. So they give you the consent before applying and even they come in court as respondents. Yes. Yes. Because one you attach the consent of the beneficiaries and then of course they also respondents to the application. They also respondents to the application. Of course, as parties, they are required to be in court. And I have seen judicial officers are very strict. They want all the beneficiaries so that they ascertain whether they have consented or not. Yeah. Yes. So there was this argument that if they respond to the application instead of having their consent attached to the application, since they are going to be since they are respondents, they supposed maybe fair enough that they reply to the application. So what if they respond in that application, more or less consenting to the grant? Would that suffice instead of having the consent attached to that? What I have seen, what I have seen what courts do—the question you are asking is maybe form and content. The most important thing is not the the form but the content. What the courts require is that the beneficiaries appear in court, and even they are identified in court, they are seen in court, and even they are asked. So this form of saying whe that one is not material. The most important thing before you are granted the the application, before the application is heard, the beneficiaries consented; the the judicial officer has to ascertain that that they have consented.

All right. Then another question I received was from this was from Rita. He says where a joint grant was granted to four individuals in 2012, administrators have since passed passed away. So what remedies are available to administrators? So I hope you get it. Actually, this I have been asked this question by many people. So uh, if administration of all property is granted to several individuals, yes, m, and now before the the winding up, completion of the process of of administering the state, then some one of them or some of them die, but others remain, what happens? So the law has an answer. The law has an answer in the section uh section 269, 269 of the word of the succession act, and it states: section 269 states: hear this: upon the death of the of one of one or more of several executors or executrices or administrators or administrators. I have never heard of this word, and it stresses I am here because now you see this creation of he she him her; you see now because of equality of men and women, because this word is new to me—all the powers of the office become vested in the survivors or survivor. So the law is very clear, but what happens, what the the courts do is not what is stated in the in the law because like in family now when you you are administrators and one of them dies, if you go back to court and show them that one administrator has died, for them they revoke your grant; that's what I have seen; they revoke your grant; they say now when you are granted the letters of administration why the administrators were several or many. Other administrators were catering for for for some groups. You find somebody has died. He had about three wives or four, and they had chosen an administrator from from from each family, each each wife. So like one of them dies. So he's going to represent now the other family. That's what the courts are saying. But the law is very clear. The surviving administrator should continue and administer the state. And what we have been doing when an administrator dies, then you apply for a cert of death. You get a certificate of death. Then the the whatever the surviving administrator does, he attaches the certificate of death to show that the uh the the other administrators have died, and then even in land they have been transferring the, but now they don't follow this law. The law is there, but courts are not following it. So if you uh you have uh a joint grant and some administrators die, the courts now require you uh they they first revoke that one and then they want to issue another grant now. They call the beneficiaries now back; you don't go back to the administrator general. No, they call the beneficiaries now to court. Yes. And then they ask them: do you want him to continue administering this later on? If if some beneficiaries say no no no, then they choose other administrators and add them on the grant, and they give you a fresh grant with other other administrators, but which is contrary to the because the law is very clear. So what is done in practice is not practice in the law, but the law is very clear as I have read it. So she loses not lose her question. So what what what is supposed to do? Should you apply for revocation or for renewal now because we have lost some—that question. I don't agree. I don't get the question. Okay. The question was there were four people. Yes. Four people. Two have died. Yes. So two are remaining, and now they think it has expiring on 31st. Yes. So they now apply for for revocation, revocation, or they apply for—according to the law, if some administrators have died, the surviving administrators are supposed to apply for extension, but they attach the certificate of death of the of the deceased administrators; that is the correct procedure, but not to apply for revocation, no, because how can I apply for revocation of of the grant which is granted to me? I'm capable and supports me, so why do I want the other has to be added onto me—over applying for amendment. What about the amendment? No, but the road does not talk of amendment. Okay. You see me, I'm a person of the law, and the law is very clear. Even if it is one surviving administrator, they should let him do the the work and complete the administration of the state. Okay.

Um, I think we have, but I'm warning that is not what is happening at the family court. No, they don't follow this law. They don't follow this law. They don't follow it. Okay. So I think maybe we'll take one question from Noat before we go back to our other questions. No, if you could just ask one question in under one minute. I don't know if No, but you're asking a question. I've muted him. No, but um Okay. As No, but is is organizing himself. Uh, I think there was a question about where the grant of letters of administrations are set to expire on Saturday, and during the course of administering the estate, new properties were discovered. Uh, so maybe the inventory was incomplete or something like that. Uh, so the person is asking in that case what should happen in respect of the newly discovered assets. So uh, newly discovered properties—if the properties have been discovered during the subsistence of the of the grant of administration, the administrator the administrator has a right of administering that estate because uh when somebody is given uh a grant, his work is to the properties of the deceased and administer them. So if the grant is still subsisting and you have come across other properties, then the grant is still is still subsisting, then you can file an inventory, and you also administer them; you apply for—if the the time of filing an inventory has expired—in my opinion, you apply for for extension of time because you have just fine because you have come across other properties of the deceased, and you are the administrator, then you you can administer them before they expire of the grant. Yes. But if the the grant has expired, then it means you need a fresh grant of the what of the of the letters of administration as an administered what administered part of the state; you apply for a fresh grant. If the the administrator had wound up, you apply for a fresh grant to administer these properties which you have discovered after the expiry of the grant. But if this the grant is still is still subsisting, then you can you can administer it. I think maybe to to add to this to this question, the question because he was imagining when I was applying for administration, my petition had three properties. Yes. So it means it gave me powers to go and administer those three properties. Yes. So now I have a fourth property. Yes. So that's why he was having the: should I go back to court to give me power to administer the fourth property? Should I use the same grant to administer the fourth property? What should I do? You get I hope you get the question. You have got letters of administration. Yes. Then maybe in the application you listed three properties. Yes. M, then uh after the grant you trace the properties; you make an inventory and you file it in court. So have you divided this state or you have not? Not yet. Yes. So if you are still within time, in my opinion, you can include it in what in the final accounts because you have come across it. You are an administrator. You have the the the power, and the grant is still is still valid. M, but the problem comes after the grant has expired; there you need a fresh grant to administer the the estate, the part of the estate which was not administered. Yes, I think it is very clear there because once you have been granted letters of administration, you have power over all the properties of the estate of the of the deceased which you knew or whichever property you come across; yes, it doesn't mean that you you administer only the properties which you included in the in the petition. No, because those are the properties you knew. But the work of the administrator is to trace all the all the properties. So if you come across them during your it is your duty. If you come across them during your duty, then you administer them but within the time of your grant. If the grant has expired, then you have to apply for a fresh grant to administer that unadministered part of the state.

Okay. Um, please um for all of—if you're just joining us, welcome to our discussion today on regga spaces. We are joined by Mr. Maxim Mutabingua, a senior advocate discussing deadlines for the dead. What happens to the estates after the um letters of administration expire? Do they remain um do our dead remain dead and do the estates now die with them? Uh, those are the some of the questions that are being asked. Please, if you have a question, feel free to type it in here. If you wish to speak, please ask for the microphone. We'll be giving you just under a minute to ask your question. Um, but we are very happy and privileged to have you here. We are discussing a topic that touches on the lives and deaths of many people on the estates um around the country, and we are honored and privileged that you've um that you've you've joined us. Um, one of the questions Maxim that people are asking is is um I think there's a lot of concern about this expiry, and some people are asking—I've seen questions coming from TikTok where someone is asking: do the courts have this time, will they have time for anything else? And another person is asking: how long does it take to actually get letters of administration if all have to apply right now? And if we have an expiry, will it will you be able to get these letters quickly enough to go back to the administering of our estates, or is there a risk that time is going to be taken out of course? I know that's a question we should probably throw to the judiciary, but as an officer of the court and a senior member of the bar um and then other people also asking—I think a third question I'm seeing here is: there are questions about what are small estates, and are smallest—how are small estates managed? Where do you go to the high court? Where do you go to a court lower than the high court? I think those are um some of the questions coming through for us. But please, if you wish to ask anything, feel free to type it in the chat box; otherwise, feel free to ask for the microphone. Thank you very much, Ed. Now this question of expiry uh must generate a lot of concern, and it is generating a lot of concern, and rightly so, because after expiry of the letters of administration, what happens? There is going to be a lot of commotion and stampede, and it is already there. So to ask uh do our courts have the capacity to handle all these matters? Like I I I told you, I have already told you, like the case backlog in our courts. Our courts are burdened with cases. We have a lot of cases even at family division, even without these other applications which are coming. The family court has already a big a big backlog of cases, and now to handle all these applications for extension and renewal, it is going to take a lot of time, and the judicial officers as we have uh they I don't think they they are going to manage because they are going to be overburdened; the applications are so many. Like this week, I think me myself I have filed like—now imagine all the firms in Kampala, they are filing these applications. So even it is going to—you find that extensions, some—to to get these extensions, it will be taking like 3 years, 4 years to to reach your application because there are so many applications. Now, how many cases are in court because the courts are not handling only these cases of extension because there are divorce cases; there are other other cases; there is separation; there are matters in family in family division. Maybe the division of the state has gone bad and it has resulted in two suits. There are so many suits. So uh now if you add all these applications for extension, even if they say now we don't want people to go back and renew, I mean to to go and apply for fresh grants, we shall entertain the applications for renewal. The applications for renewal are going to be so many; let me tell you, there are not many people who have administered the estates of the deceased. The grants we have—grants as old as 20 years—people got grants and sat on them, and you know why. I have seen many people, and I have had so many people—when somebody dies, the family says: no, we don't want to divide the the land of of the deceased; we don't want to divide the estate of the deceased. Actually, last week I was interacting with he said: no, how do we divide our our our father's land? How do you divide our fathers' estate? And it is titled land. It is registered land. So people have that feeling—a deceased died, but they don't want to touch his estate, and they think maybe they are pleasing the the the deceased, and they—but by pleasing the the deceased they are displeasing the beneficiaries; they don't want to touch the property. Like when my father died, uh, people said: no, we shouldn't distribute, but I said: the the owner has died, so what happens to his estate? Distribute it. They distributed it, so other people started to sell their their shares. They said: you man, they are selling your father's land. No. I said: no, it is not my father's land. My father died. It is his land, and and my father is lucky that the land has been sold by his son. So what's wrong with that one? So you cannot own property forever and ever. Even the properties we are owning, they were owned by other people. So that's how the world is. The world must I mean life has to to continue. You cannot hold on on the property for for for years and years. Somebody died; he cannot own the property. He cannot go with the property to heaven or to hell. So distribute it and then officials get their life. M, actually I have seen people suffering—the person died and left chunks of land, but they cannot sell—our father's land—now somebody can sell a portion and get capital and start his life, but they say: no, this is our father's land, but your father died a long time ago; what do you want to do with with the land? So those are...

The problems now because of that, people still have grants as old as 30 years. Even the administrators, they are granted the letters and they die for disputing these things. You find in many cases the administrators even died, and even the beneficiaries have never even attempted to get the other letters. I mean, the the the other administrators, so administrators are granted; they also die, and the is there the so that's what the problem is. The government which passed the law has also been going around encouraging people not to divide; you see the the the the state or the land, um, and I I think the would it be correct to say there's a conceptual show problem in the law that for some people asking that the law assumes you must divide the estate, but someone is saying that Madvani is an estate.

Madvani died in 1920 20. Yes. Yes. The estate has has remained undistributed, and that is that is its growth. It has grown while as opposed to being divided. Does the law require us to divide and not to grow the the the the asset base? I think that's but you cannot you cannot compare capitalist like with in how do you do that? It is not comparable; how do you do that? And actually what I've been telling my clients, those ones who don't want to distribute the properties, to provide I have been giving them very good advice. What you do if land is registered, you make sure that it is it moves from the names of the administrator to all your names; you are registered so that you your your name is there; joint owners; you can use it jointly because it is in your names, but it is it is it is it is not proper and it is illegal for the land to remain in the name of the deceased or the administrator.

So for the administrator to wind the estate and to show that he has finished, then he will show that he has given the run to all the beneficiaries and even has registered it into the names of the beneficiaries. He will have finished his work. Then if your name appears on the title, it means you have you have a share. You have a share. Maybe you can own it as as as tenants in common. M so that after a beneficial has died, then what his sons and daughters can take his share, but also that poses a danger because I had a client; their father died, and they were about six, so they said, "No, we cannot divide our father's land," okay, so they said, "We shall use it communally," but some were rich; others who are poor; those who who are rich they brought cows, now very many cows, and they were grazing there. But other people didn't have any cows. They didn't have even a goat. So this is your share. But somebody is grazing his cows there. But you don't have anything to graze. So what happens now? They started grumbling. They said, "No, these people are cheating us. These people now are using land, and for us we we are not we are not benefiting. Can you give us our share?" They ended up in court now because the other people didn't want to divide. These ones we didn't have cows. They said, "No, now in that case give us our shares." They end up in court, and court said, "Divide the the land," and they divided, and each one took a share, and those ones even sold the their shares, but the the other ones who are grazing they are still grazing on their shares. So you see it is very hard, especially in this country; the beneficiaries don't agree; in most cases they start fighting; you have seen so how do you own community? And I have seen even some people uh uh they come to make wheels and they make wheel and they make a company and make all the beneficiaries shareholders, so and you know the beneficiaries after that a war will break out; who will become a director of the who will become a financial director.

Yes. So now you see the the the what the deceased has his own program on earth. You cannot impose it on the on the beneficiaries. If he he had a farm, how sure is he that me I also am interested in in the farm. Farming. No, me I might I might be interested in real property. I'm not interested in farming. So you make it as a farm, and me I'm practicing I'm practicing here in campa, and you want me to go and manage a farm in you see that commun is very hard; it is very hard to manage; so that's why when somebody dies, the property of that person should be distributed; if some beneficiaries have money, then they can buy up to the the other ones.

Yes. Yeah. Mr. No. No. But are you able to speak now? You could ask your question before you ask other questions. Sorry. I think he's unable to speak. So yeah, I have two questions; I will join them. The first one is if I apply for to renew datation and my application is dismissed, do I appeal or what do I do if the is dismissed? Then another one is we only have three judges at the family division of the I code and considering that there are very many people who are applying for renewal. So all those who as administrators or tutors are they supposed to apply to different divisions of the IT from like where they are litigating from or they supposed to go back to family division of the court to apply from there? What I don't understand the question is we only have three judges at family division. Yes. But I got I got my from the court but now I'm getting from ABC division using those letters. So now they're going to expire. So am I supposed to apply for a new first go back to family division or I can apply from the same court where I am litigating from as of now because you're looking at a point where court is having very many applications as of now; we have three judges and almost just imagine the company is applying to those that same court and already have their backlog. So if I'm not getting another court, can I apply to that court or you need also go back to family division. Thank you.

So the question is you have applied for a grant. Yes. And your application is dismissed. In most cases what I have seen like in my application where my client was given an extension of two weeks, they give you a reason for dismiss of of dismiss. So you rectify; they give you a reason of dismiss, then you rectify yes that reason. And you see now court also you see court is court and there is this requirement and which court must put into account, and I don't think if this this requirement is put into account they they dismiss your application; is it in the interest of the beneficiaries? If court has that one then it cannot dismiss your application because uh you administer the state for the beneficiaries. So if it's in the interest of the beneficiaries then cannot refuse. Maybe court has refused. It has seen a danger against the beneficiaries, and also in the in the reasons of dismissal there is I mean in the ruling there is always reasons and they tell you even what to do. So you can apply a fresh; I mean you can apply for you can bring another application like I have told you; I have brought another application. M the other one has he was given two weeks but they have expired now; I have applied again for what extension. So when your application is dismissed, depending on the on the reasons you can bring about to another application then somebody says that can you make a renew an application for renewal like in a civil court. Yes, that is not possible because uh you make an application for renewal from the court which is which issued the what the grant because that is where the file of the administration cause is. Yes. Actually before considering the the renewal court must first see that original file of the AC called the administration cause because that's where all the important information is. That's where the important information from administrator general is uh also on that file uh that's where in the petition uh all the beneficiaries are. So now how do you bring now an application for extension like in in a civil court? Then yes, it is not allowed. That one cannot happen. So you have to go to the court which issued the grant. Yes.

Then if you're just joining us, we are with Mr. Maxim Mutingua. We are taking questions on the the upcoming expiry of letters of administration and grant of probate. Um, as you may as you may or may not know this the the lifespan of many of the grants of probate expire within two days. Um, they expire on Saturday. So if you have a letter of administration, you should look at it and g it jealously because on Friday it is likely to have expired. Um, Alfred I think you had a question.

Yes, I had a question. This one was asking this one doesn't want to find himself in the fraas of applying for administration. So he's asking what are the different modes of estate planning that I can do to avoid any ofation at one time. Maybe you can apply before you die. Maybe I think that's what he he's talking about. Before you die before Yeah, that one you can plan. Let me refresh the question. You can you can distribute before he dies. Okay. The question could be you know like if he dies he doesn't want his children to undergo through this whole hustle yes of applying for probate before they manage his estate. So what can he do so that his children avoid that hassle. Yeah, a person can manage his estate even after he has died. Yeah, you can manage your estate when you are dead, and you can do that when you have made a when you have it. You make a will and you provide for everything everything how you want your your property to be managed and you put it in a document called the will, and your will speaks after your death. No, but yes but Mr. will alternatively there is another alternative. You distribute your properties before you die. And then that one is what you call gift interiors. You give all your properties. Each one gets a share. I have seen very many people they do that before they die. You see death comes just abruptly. It does not want you cannot have a meeting that you see now I'm going to die. Let me give you this. Let me give you no it not. So I have seen some people especially elderly people. Mhm. They they distribute most of their properties and they remain with with few properties. Yeah. You understand? So that when he dies all that fus is not there. Each one knows his property, and you know when you give property before you die that one cannot be included in the administration because it belongs to that person whom you have given it. We call it gift interals. Yeah. Or you make a wheel. You make a wheel. Once you have made a will actually you see in this country we have a a very bad culture. People think that if you make a will that that you are going to die. No, the will is a very good thing. Like my father wrote a wheel before he died. He went to a lawyer and then he left the wheel. So some days after then they brought us a wheel. Everything he had wanted we did, and we have never had any in our family. He was a rich peasant in we divided our land according to the will actually for us we didn't even run to courts; no, the will is there; you he has given you his your part; he has given you a share; everybody takes his share; he died in 2002, and nobody has even ever fought another person because of that wheel, but you were a big family; if that will was not there, I don't know what would have happened to us; you see you can manage your properties before you die by making a will or by disputing the properties before you die. But those are the only two ways.

Maybe another you might forget this question also because it is in the questions you had given to me. Disposal of the properties of the what? Of the deceased. Listeners out there, you must understand this. There is a danger in buying the properties of the deceased. Actually there are people who have bought properties of the seeds deceased even they have not transferred them into their names, and now this amendment actu has has come up with a very tough role now a very tough tough provision, and that one now because you may you may forget it and it is very very important because people should know this; what do you have to do to buy property of the what of the of the asset of the deceased? Section 267 of the succession act cap 268 states you hear subject to section 23 and 30 subsection 2 an exeutor exists or administrator or administrators as may be applicable may with may with the writt consent of the spouse and all the descendants of the deceased person, dispose of the property of the deceased either or in party. Have you heard? So if you want to buy the property of the deceased and they have made this section subject section 23, section 23 of the of the succession act is about the percentages about the division of the properties of the what of the interstate. How much percentage does each take? So it is subject to that. So you need written consent of the surviving spouse. Actually now as we talk the administrators who are selling the properties of the deceased even without the the knowledge of the what of the spouses they don't know the law. Now the the spouse has to consent. Not only the the the spouse but all the linear descendants of the deceased. Linear descendants who are linear descendants of the deceased. When you go to the definition section, line descendants means a person who is a who is descended in a direct line from the deceased and includes a child, a grandchild of the deceased and any other person related to the deceased in a direct descending line up to six degrees descending. You hear? So you need consent of all these people. So by now it is going to be practically impossible to buy the property of the of the deceased. It is going to be very very very hard. Very very hard. How do you buy the property of the the deceased under such an actual business is going to come to a stand. You want to buy the property of the deceased. Some beneficiaries are not residing in this country. Mhm. Or some reficiaries they vet your what your idea they say, "No, no, for for for us we are not interested in selling," or they put conditions you know not and they don't give their consent so how will you sell the the property; you cannot so reason out there if you are buying the property of the dis you have to be very careful; this section is very very tough; section 267 of the succession act; disposal of the property; you need consent of the spouse; you need consent of the line descendants, and it is not a consent but it is written consent. It must be in writing not oral. It will be very difficult. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Section 27 uh 267 subsection 8 states that you hear this now any dispose of the property belonging to the state of the deceased person in controversial of this act shall be void. Have we heard listeners if you don't follow this section anything you do with the property of the deceased then it is void, and as we talk now even today even tomorrow people now they think that it is still business as usual; the administrators have been going to the lawyers or where then they make arguments without even the beneficiaries knowledge, but you can see how the law has changed now; if the property belonged to the deceased you have to follow the law; if you don't follow then whatever you have done is null and void, then I don't want I don't want you to forget this section is very very important for the listeners; yes, just now in addition to that same question if I bought property from say following that look the section as you mentioned 667 but we have not yet finished the transferring like maybe some money is spending to be paid; we have not the transaction but probably the person who was saying had the mindset of me of my money. So he refuses now to apply for renew of the grant or apply for a fresh grant. But I bought from this state. So as me as a buyer, what do I have?

As a buyer, you have if you bought, did you buy before the coming of this act? I bought during the coming act before. Just imagine I bought last week. Yes. Last week and I've not finished the transaction are going are going to expire on 31st. Yes. Yes. So and then the person who sold to me maybe just want to renew your interest. Exactly. That is one of the problems now which uh the the citizens are going to face. Somebody has taken your money but has not has not registered the land into your names has not given your property and then now his grant has expired. Yeah. The man will go to prayer and start celebrating. He will celebrate. You cannot you cannot force him now to you cannot compare him now to do what you had wanted. He may even be be reluctant. So the only remedy you have is sue him in court. With agreement because you made an argument with him. So you go to court and sue him and then maybe you get a court order. You understand? So if the administrator has neglected to do his work then you sue him. We have we have many suits against administrators then court can compare him but all of you council you know the process of of getting judgment from court; the backlog; how long it takes; it is very cumbersome. Yes. Um okay. Um thank you. I think for anyone who's joining us we are with Mr. Maxim Mutingua discussing um all things administration. You've just heard if you buy property from a dead from the estate of a deceased person without getting the consent of the beneficiaries, you are likely to have been you are likely to be in a dead deal. Your deal may may not may not succeed and um the law is also nullifying. So it seems the law the new succession amendment act seems to I think the mischief that it seems to cure is it seems to protect beneficiaries. I think previously the assumption must have been that administrators were very powerful, and I think it's now seeking to cartel them to make the grants time bound, the work clear, the distributions clear, and any dealing in estate property must be done with the consent of beneficiaries; that is the ultimate driving um force; would you agree with Mr.

I'm telling you that's the ultimate driving theory that the legislature was working with; making sure that it reduces the power of the administrator and moves further and further to protect um the the the beneficiary; of course some of the dangers for example what happens to mortgaged property if an administrator walks into the bank to mortgage property does he go against the spirit and letter of those particular sections I think section 267 that you've that you've Uh now under this law the administrator cannot mortgage the estate property without the consent of the beneficiaries. If there are 20 beneficiaries, all of you have to talk to the bank and they have to sign all the the the consents all the documents to mortgage the estate the estate property. So that's why business is not as of the decision; actually by the way I see it guys the way I see it actually there are not many people who are going now take this month of becoming becoming administrators; people are going to decline yes because the the the obligations the obligations are very tough; they are very tough, and even they don't even create some offenses against same; I don't think many people now would be be willing to apply for letters; okay; it seem it seems the draftsman was in a dispute a property dispute at the time that there must have been a problem because the responsibility which is put on the administrators now too heavy; it is too heavy; then just before we leave banks we saw you know with banks imagine I go administration and I've been administering asset of he has a bank account so that I've been administering now have expired; what is it f when I'm renewing you know that time lag when I'm renewing and that account maybe as you've been receiving money pension you get and I've been getting money from that account using the same letters so what's my fate as I wait to renew; keep on being the one that account getting accessing the money; then visav for the banks now it's out their customers to comply to tell them to keep applying for renew so that they can still manage of the deceased. So those are two duties now on the customer and the bank. How how can the banks play around that because now okay start with the banks now. Okay.

Let me start with the banks. The banks—now, I don't think now, practically, it is going to be possible to manage the land of the deceased, the property of the deceased. How now? Because you are supposed to divide it in one year and file an inventory and an account.

Let me start with the bank to make it. You see, I have—was receiving maybe pension and deposited on a bank account. So I was this administrator of the state, and I took those letters. So I was managing that account. So I keep getting money from that account. Now, the letters have expired, but now they keep sending in that money. So, this time between applying for renewal by abd of state without now proper letters—ah, uh, this amendment I have—there is a section which I have not read, but it is there. It caters for that situation of the pensions. There is a specific section, but which I cannot get readily. So people should not fear because that one is provided by the amendment. There is a solution in this law. They shouldn't get worried. I could get it quickly. Yeah, you could get it for you. Just because even now the banks need to add 554, as we're getting the section 554 now—you can unmute—25, 2, 3, 4, subsection 2 and 3 shall not apply to letters of administration granted under section 212 or person's pension forming part of the state. So pension is—yeah, yeah, yeah, I had seen this section—you know, this is a new law, we have not—so section 255, subsection 4, subsection 2, subsection 2 is about the grant of property, and section 1 shall be divided for a period not exceeding 2 years, but pension is saved under subsection 4. B. persons forming a pension forming part of the state is exonerated. Yes. Is exempted, and I say yes. I see Mr. Chairman is saying 256. 256, 256, uh, 4. What is wrong? Subsection 2 and shall not apply to administration granted to A. Administration granted under section 212; B. the portion of the state administered under section 232. 232 is about—232 is 232. Not with sub—20% of this shall not be distributed but shall be held in trust for the education, maintenance, and welfare. So it doesn't apply to this state which is not distributed but is for the education, maintenance, and welfare of the following categories of lineal descendants until they cry as such: a minor child of the interstate, and where he or she attains 18 years of age, until he or she ceases to qualify under paragraph B. So you can see these ones are exempted, then 256, uh, uh, 4C, pension forming part of the state. So pension is exempted. So, uh, people, administrators who are who are receiving pension, they are catered for under the law, and they shouldn't get worried.

Okay. So, so okay, so thank you for everybody who has joined us. Um, we are now reaching half past 8. Uh, so we've done one and a half hours um on this very important um subject. As you can see, the framers of the law decided to protect the beneficiaries. Um, and I think the law was written realizing that a lot of people who administer estates have been very unfair to a lot of people on whose behalf they are administering. That being said, the law still has its challenges. I think that's my takeaway from this conversation. Uh, the administrative challenges are a burden imposed on the courts that are already overburdened. Last week, if I can just digress to our normal programming, I think it was last week or the week before—last week there was a commercial justice conference where his Lordship, the Honorable the Chief Justice, said that Uganda needs 20,000 judges to dispose of the cases that we have now and 50,000 magistrates. He was saying that before the biting effect of the succession amendment law. He was he was saying that without taking into account the kind of problem we are dealing with, and actually we shall come to address that I think in later discussions, but I I heard very clearly the Honorable the Chief Justice saying that we need 20,000 judges. He also was kind enough to tell us how many of the 20,000 we actually have. He said currently we have less than 100. So we have a deficit of 19,900 judges before the coming into force of the succession amendment act. Today I saw the High Court in Mukono issue a a a cause list for criminal cases uh that they they were deciding to try people who have been on remand, and they decided to resolve it. And the first case was a 2015 case—a decade—a Ugandan has been waiting one decade to be tried. I don't know if the witnesses against him can remember what happened or if their memory can survive a forensic cross-examination if they if they ask serious questions. So I don't know if those witnesses and those victims of that crime may get justice. I don't know if that person himself may get justice. And I think there were about 20 cases on that cause list, and all of them were between seven to 10 years—five, I think five to 10 years waiting. So here we are introduced. So, while this law is intending to protect, or with one hand, does it also take away from these beneficiaries with another? Is a question that remains to be answered, and we shall see in how the judiciary approaches this issue, especially seeing that the 100 ladies and gentlemen who serve in our judiciary are carrying, according to his Lordship the Chief Justice, the burden of 19,900 people.

That being said, um, it's time for us to close this space. And before we do, as we traditionally do, we will ask Mr. for his closing remarks on this subject and any other subject. But also before you do close, I just allow me on behalf of everybody here to thank you for giving the last two weeks to this conversation and to really bringing this subject into the bedrooms, the sitting rooms, the cars, the dining tables of many families up and down um the country who are now listening to lawyers and to non-lawyers alike who are listening, who are understanding their their their challenges and who are making decisions that are relevant to them. So thank you. Allow me to thank you on behalf of all of our listeners and also uh viewers and um um and maybe we can hand over to you, Mr. Minga, for your closing remarks. So maybe just also before you close uh before we actually hand over to you, maybe let me also thank Alfred Muyaka and also invite him—maybe if you can give us a closing remark, and then we hand over to Mr. Mutingua. Well, just wish to thank Mr. for joining us for two weeks, and after last week I think he had to go and make more research now on the questions which were left behind, and even today he has been answering that, so we thank you for your time—or people will be paying for this device, but you have done enough pro bono, and I'm sure people even come to you—this one from—do for demo—so thank you so much for your time, and yeah, for everyone who has been on the space even for two occasions last week and this week, and for who have always joined us. Thank you for giving us your your evening, your Wednesday evenings, even on even when you call you on short notes, you always come on board, and you have to go on engaging—thank you—that's from me and the team. You can have the parting from Mr. having after 2 weeks of the dead are not dying. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for inviting me. Uh, you see, I was a teacher. I taught DC for 8 years. So I like teaching, and especially when people get information, when they get knowledge, I become happy. Uh, I always tell people that you see uh in this legal practice of ours, we shouldn't run after money, but we should run after service and uh to run after justice. So whenever justice is done, me, I feel so so happy, and you know I have been fighting for justice. So where there is a war for justice, I'm the first one on the front line. So when I I I feel that the citizens have learned uh an important topic like this, when the citizens have known, have learned their their have learned the law and they have known their rights, I feel so so happy. So what I'm telling uh the citizens over there who are listening, especially non-lawyers, you people, you should know what it takes, what it takes, what it requires to get as administration. So you are so that you are not cheated or—eries because administrators and beneficiaries have been cheated by people who know the ropes—something which which cost a very small amount of money. You end up uh giving out almost all the estate to the the beneficiaries. You know what it takes to get that grant of letters of administration so that when you are negotiating then you you have knowledge, you have information so that you are not cheated, so that you are not fed—so you can approach, you can approach a lawyer. Now, in this country, there are so many lawyers—I think advocates now we are going to 7,000—yeah, you can approach a lawyer, or even now every sub-county there is a court, you can go to court. If you are in the village, you can go to and ask instead of being cheated. Then uh another category I would wish to warn are the people who are buying the properties of the of the deceased. As you have heard from the—it is now very very tough to buy the property of the deceased because it requires all the beneficiaries, the consent of all the beneficiaries. It requires uh the what, the consent of the spouse and the descendants. So the administrator should divide this state very quickly. So buy from somebody who has got his is what his his share. Mhm. And he must be having all the documents, and I think by if we follow the law, these disputes of estates they are going to to use in court if this law is strict, is strictly followed. But what I can see also this law is very is very complicated also. It might be very hard for—and the way I see it—and the team, I see this law going back to parliament for amendment for some uh relaxation because some some parts are not going to be to be practical. For example, somebody was asking me, and they had asked me this question last week—now I have letters of administration, I'm in court, the grant expires, do I still have a a right to pursuit like that one is still debatable. Yes. Because me, my work as as an administrator has ended, or you apply for new—they don't even—and then an administrator now a prize and he's is granted. So do I add that? But so now is he is he going to be added to the—so those issues now are coming. So the way I see it, I see this law going back to parliament uh for panel beating so that it becomes practical. Uh, otherwise, listeners, I thank you very much for listening to me, and God bless you. Thank you very much.

Thank you so much um Mr. Maximingua for taking your time to come and join us in this conversation and for really discussing with us. Um for for all those who are joining us and from wherever you have joined us from, we are truly honored and privileged to have you here. Uh we are honored and privileged that you've taken time off your evening to join us, and it's been a great conversation—in my view, a fantastic discussion—illuminating, bringing light into this issue of estates, probate, letters of administration, and matters that concern many families up and down this country, and we hope that the information that you've got from this space you'll find it useful in your families and in your legal practices up and down the country. Of course, here at this space, we are very very committed to—I know Mr. Mutabinga last week said that sometimes when you lose, we may when we're looking at recruitment of judges, we may end up um removing a thug from the from the bar and putting him on on the bench. But um that that notwithstanding, for for for many of us at least we are we are holding fast to the view that the the constitution of this country needs to be respected, and one of the issues which has come out very clearly from this discussion is we are likely to see an an increment of cases in our courts. We have heard that we have three judges in the Family Division of the High Court in Kampala who are going to sit on so many applications. We have judges in the circuits up and down this country who are—some of them already are burdened with 1,000, 2,000 cases. I don't—they're just going to have their dockets double easily um in the next few weeks and months as families go around trying to bring themselves into compliance with this law. We have heard from the Honorable the Chief Justice himself who has told us that the state of the business of the courts of judicature so requires because he has 100 people and he needs 20,000—if he if he had every lawyer according to him and made every lawyer a High Court judge, there would still be backlog. Uh, this is according to the Honorable the Chief Justice, and so there is absolutely no reason why we cannot now come to the realization that we need to invoke the provisions of the constitution that allow for—at least in cases like this where we have emergency attacks on the courts—at least to call on the bar to call on those who are qualified to rise to the occasion as mission-based judges to sit and determine some of these matters because the business of the court so requires, and that has been said by no less than the Honorable the Chief Justice himself. Otherwise, for those of you who have joined us from wherever you've joined us from, whichever part of the world or the country you've joined us from, thank you for joining us. We are blessed, we are privileged, we are honored to have you. Um uh we're honored to have you, and it's been a great and insightful discussion. As Shila Ankunda says, thank you, Sheila. Thank you, everybody who is joining us. Thank you for all the comments we are seeing, and if you're joining us from where you're joining us from, as we always say, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night, and to those of those of you who are members of the Uganda Law Society, it would and even those who are not, it would only be good if you went to bed listening to a very good song that speaks about our election which will soon come and also speaks about me. None other than Major.