And if you demonize those people, and if you drive them to the right, and you, but you tell men like there's something innately wrong with them, you destroy a whole population's revolutionary potential. So, do you think that's the factor behind the gender div? No, no, no. I disavow that completely. But I think that second-wave feminism is, um, about creating a gender divide that leaves women in the white-collar world more competitive than men. If you look at socialist feminism, it's all about trying to create universal programs, working with men to create better conditions for the working class. PMC. Second-wave feminism was about optimizing workplace situations so that women could compete with men for the uppermost jobs.

You're listening to One Dime Radio. Become a patron at patreon.com to support the show and get access to extra content. We think that ideology is something blurring, confusing our straight view. Ideology should be glasses which distort our view, and the critique of ideology should be the opposite, like you take off the glasses so that you can finally see the way things really are. When you talk about a revolution, most people think "v" without realizing that the real content of any kind of revolutionary rust lies in the, in, in the principles and the goals that you're striving for, not in the way you reach them.

They call someone a relativist, by which they mean it's a person that holds that any view is as good as any other view. My simple response to that is, there's no one who holds that view. No one believes that every view is as good as every other other view.

Welcome to One Dime Radio. Today I'm here with Katherine Lou, author of the book "Virtue Hoarders: The Case Against the Professional Managerial Class." Uh, Katherine Lou is a professor at the University of California, Irvine. Uh, and I think, uh, your book was part of a broader array of books, uh, that sort of made me jump from the position of, "There's something wrong with the left, but I'm going to ignore it because the right is a bigger problem," and, you know, "The culture war is a distraction." The latter of which I, you know, still kind of agree with. Um, but then increasingly it became clear to me that, no, there's a serious problem on the left, and it's actually, it actually has a material basis. It has a basis in class itself. And, uh, your book, along with the work of Christopher Lash, was very instrumental in sort of clarifying this to me and really, uh, that sort of awakening. And, um, you know, many people say, "Is the, is the left too white?" You know, "Is it too this?" And I would say, "It is too white. It's too white-collar." Right? And that's something you talk about. And, um, I guess there's a lot of clarification there. But you're obviously of a PMC background yourself, right? Yeah. And I'm curious, first and foremost, kind of what led you to write this book? Because it's, there, there you have a scathing critique in this, and it's a short, and I want to say to the audience, it's a short book. You have no excuse not to read it. Um, so you definitely should. But yeah, what, what made you, what was the kind of tipping point for you to write this?

The tipping point was probably, um, the 2016 election when, um, Hillary lost. Trump, Trump, Trump 1.0. Um, I've been sort of doing straight-on intellectual history, cultural theory, critical theory, and I'd always been very critical of this, um, cultural populism in academic writing. I also became much more critical of the way that critical theory had given up on Marxism and, you know, embraced post-structuralism and postmodernity. But, you know, I think I was sort of in the closet about being a kind of died-in-the-wool old-school Marxist in terms of understanding class as the one motivating contradiction that can change the relations of production in a society and that can, you know, really oppress people and exploit the majority of people with an ideological framework that keeps the majority of the people oppressed and exploited and a minority of the people profiting from their labor. And I've always kind of believed this, but I have to say, like, I came of age during a time of total reaction against, um, against leftism. You know, it was the rise of the right, Reagan, and then Clinton. And I'm mostly, like, I tried to be very careful and, um, play the game, um, within academia and make, you know, good arguments and criticize cultural populism and the culture wars as a betrayal of economic populism. This was in my last book, "In Academic Idol, American Idol, Academic Elitism," is, um, cultural critique. And I'd always thought that we have to be more critical of ourselves within academia, our, our place in society.

Um, the long background to this probably has to do with the fact that, you know, um, I went to China very often as a kid because my father was working at the UN. And one thing that I saw, you know, front and center with the Cold War was the reality of the Chinese situation and the Cold War propaganda that I was being taught in schools. And I got into really big trouble in my, um, AP World History class when I raised my hand and I said, "This textbook is just not true." It said the Chinese were like little worker bees filing in and out of factories, you know, much the way that we characterize North Korea today. And, you know, China was a very messed-up place with the Cultural Revolution, everything else, um, going on well into the '70s. But when I raised my hand in class and objected to the textbook, my teacher, Mrs. Schwartz, actually said, "Kathy, you open up your mouth again, I'm going to put my size 8 shoe in it." Like, she literally silenced me. And, um, I walked out of the class and I said, "I'm not coming back in until you apologize." We had the counselor come in. My mom took my teacher's side because she's very authoritarian. And somehow we made it up. But that was a moment when I just thought, "I'm not trusting anything." You know, um, the ideological veil is something we need to throw off. But it takes a long time to do that when you're 14, 15, and no one's really supporting you and everyone's telling you, like, liberalism is good, take, you know, we, freedom is good, America is a democracy. I, I wanted to believe. You know? And you, you kind of have to.

This is a really long way of getting back to, um, my leftist roots. Also have to do with the fact that I am related to people who are workers, blue-collar workers. My uncle worked his entire life in a factory near Wuhan, in a city of 30,000 people outside of Wuhan. My aunt is a member of Unite Here Now. Um, she's a hotel worker in New York City. I challenge you now to find any, um, academic in America or Canada who has, like, working-class relatives within the extended family. I think that the class construction of academia and the liberal elites is more and more segregated and, um, more so than it's ever been. In fact, and that kind of economic and credential segregation is, um, as bad as, um, racial segregation or gender segregation, if, if we have that in our culture anymore. We don't really. So, but nobody talks about it. Nobody talks about it. So, it makes, so I'm not saying, so the other thing that people don't understand about my, uh, the PMC is it's not a moral judgment. I dislike the cultural, objective, um, ideological aspects of this class. But it's not like, "Oh, yeah, you're a white supremacist." It's a class position. And your class position can change. It's a position with regard to other people, other classes, and the means of production. We are very high-level wage workers. We do not live on interest, except to the very top of us where we become rentiers, right? Where we live on interest. We make a living. We have to go to work. Our paychecks might be higher than the people on the bottom of the wage work scale. But this class and its dynamics with regard to the lower strata of wage workers has been super detrimental, has been terrible, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has been, um, and has 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Like liberal means like progressive, big government, uh, sort of like pseudo-progressivism. But I, I also think in the more like Enlightenment liberal sense, there's a lot of it. Actually, I think that is part of the problem of what we've lost. Like, I think a lot of the moral relativism and a lot of anti-small-l liberal, not big-L.

I see. Well, yeah, I get what you mean because, like, I'll have people I meet who I think I agree with, they'll be like, "Yeah, yeah, you know, these these [ __ ] libs," uh, you know, "they'll be against them." But then they'll kind of have that same sort of like, um, you know, "The US should be Balkanized," "America and Canada, there's all a bunch of settlers," uh, and they'll give up on the working class and kind of implicitly or explicitly endorse a sort of fetishized third-worldism, which, uh, you know, it sounds like Stamman. But I've, you know, I've, the more communists I've met, the more I've seen that, and that's when I really realized this was actually a problem. It's not just a matter of someone not being radical enough. Some of the radicals are totally have this sort of mind virus.

Also, yes, yes. Well, we can't use those terms anymore. Okay, anti-liberal leftism for you. Okay, they've had, you know, anti-woke left, anti-identity. I just feel like there's, yeah, I, I'm with you on the wokeism being a difficult term because of the right. The right kind of will use it to incorporate just like any kind of left-wing politics, any kind of social justice politics, and they will sometimes, not always, but sometimes actually be against like progress of the civil rights movement and the women's movement. Uh, whereas a lot of people, I don't think mean that. But, uh, the problem is, I do think the term is important because leftists so often sweep it under the rug, we'll say, "This is just a right-wing attack, and we don't need to deal with this." But it's really hard to find a master signifier to tie all these phenomena that you, does that woke does that?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe. No, no, no. I, to go where the M, like to figure out this is not, yeah, it's not my, um, project right now. But I think the best thing to do would be to look at how it's used, um, historically, like where it comes from, how it evolves, um, uh, you know, how it functions as an anti-class, um, strategy within the left to police and put down class problems of class. Because the thing about the settler colonial argument and the Balkanization is that it totally takes out any idea that there might be classes within the settler population, people who never got very much from being a settler and who are, who work for the profit of the capitalists who settled. And so that, like the elimination of class distinction within the, um, um, white, within whites, even that is, um, I don't know, like you want to call that wokeism? I, I, okay, you know, I'll, I'll concede that. But I just think it's reactionary. There's nothing liberatory. There's nothing critical about that position when you erase the class distinctions like that, right? And you make it into just one, um, you create a demographic that is iniquitous, um, without making a class distinction. Like it, when you think about women, think about like second-wave feminism, for instance, you know, like the fact that they were working-class women, they totally ignored. And that's how they produce this kind of like woke feminism.

You talk a lot about it's not like it's not a battle. Like I'm gonna have. Norman Flin went so far in that book. I, I kind of agree with him, but, um, I, I think I, I think it's so bad the way that it's come to dominate institutional, personal, and political relations, this kind of hypervigilance about offense. And if you want to call that wokeness, that's okay. That I just think it's, it just really sucks. And it really is a kind of liberalism, and you're right to say small-l liberalism, that wants to adjudicate difference over material contradictions. And it's like a very complicated way of saying that, but it's the only way I can figure out how to confront it.

I see. No, um, the other thing that, you know, in a more analytic way, I could talk about is that within this kind of woke interaction, the super ego is a totally PMC human resources manager, right? Exactly. That's the PMC mode, like in the sense that people who aren't actually, you're pleasing that person. Yeah, yeah. Who are you pleasing? Who are you, who are you talking to when you take that red-lip position? Yeah, they say words, we need to be united, we can't seed ground to the right. It's like, we, this big other of like, yes, a left. And who's part of this imaginary left? It's a very, it's almost like a PMC cathedral. I mean, this is, I'm careful, that sounds like right-wing arguments, but in, is there not, is that not exist, right? Like I didn't think this existed because the PM, this is kind of brings us to distinction between the right and left PMC. I kind of went to a school originally that was sort of right-wing PMC or centrist PMC. It was very like technocrat, managerial, policy analysis, like center. Oh, the line go up. And that's why homeless people need to still be homeless, right? Whereas I didn't quite see the problem with that. The left was like in the academy, of this sort of like hyper-liberal, hyper-progressive, woke left, whatever we want to call it. I didn't see it was a problem till I went into grad school where I actually wanted to like study with Marxists and and stuff like that, right? Whereas, oh, I was very surprised to see all that and I was like, oh, there's some of this stuff I've heard about about the left in the, true.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, okay, so about the, we're talking about rejection of universalism, and that's part of the reason why I tend to prefer like hyper-progressive as opposed to hyper-liberal, just because so much of the left today is very illiberal in terms of literally handling contradic. Absolutely right. Absolutely right. But also, you talked so much about the, uh, rejection of universalism. I kind of want to, you elaborate on that. Why is that actually a bad thing? Because moral relativism, uh, is traditionally usually been critiqued by the right. Like the right usually critiques moral relativism, like Leo Strauss, for example. But why is that actually a problem? Uh, because some people will say, well, Foucault and Nietzsche, they say that you, it's all about power, and that's true. What would you say to those people?

Yeah, I think I've done a lot of critique of Foucault, Nietzsche, because, um, Foucault really wanted to replace the Marxist paradigm. Nietzsche does a, has a great critique of Christianity and, um, the Christian will to power. And, um, you know, really, um, tries to create a kind of a sense of positive sovereignty in a time of, um, industrialization and standardization. And his worldview is purely aristocratic, and that's very appealing. As Foucault is very appealing when you think that you can just talk power, that's power, you can identify power and denounce it. Nietzsche has this aristocratic sensibility, it's about creating the sovereign agent. Um, for Marx, there are objective situations within history that have to do with material struggles for supremacy with regard to the means of production and the means of subsistence. These are objective things that can't be reduced to my subjective experience or power. Um, in fact, Nietzsche, from a monarchist point of view, could be understood as a bourgeois, brilliant mind was trying to create a kind of Superman and, and, um, escape from the standardization that he saw coming through, um, the rationalization of work in the capitalist workplace. So that is very appealing because we are all being punished by this kind of increasingly regimented, disciplined workplace. I mean, since the 19th century, our work is more surveilled, our, um, our freedoms are less and less, um, possible. And the two of them, we're thinking about as kind of freedom, right? The freedom of bondage and sadomasochism, sexual perversion, non-normativity with Foucault, maybe, um, and Nietzsche, pure aristocratic will to power that renounces Christianity and the virtues. Totally appealing. What Marx was looking at was the fact that for most of human existence, the working class, the peasant, not even the working class yet, the peasants, the majority of people, had short, brutish lives. The conversion of the means of production within agriculture and industrial production produced both new forms of oppression, but the possibility of liberating people from short, brutish lives. And within the Enlightenment, one of the things that had to do with scientific observation, it wasn't, and they used this and, and, um, experimentation, was the introduction of the smallpox vaccine, which changed the survival rate of children from before vaccine to after vaccine in an enormous way. And also improved, um, the lives of women because they didn't have to give birth to so many children so that one could survive. The, that process of rationalization and scientific method did not come out of nowhere. It came out of certain principles of experimentation, objective observation of phenomena, and rationalization. That rationalization has turned into instrumental reason, so that we use it to extract profit and oppress people as much as possible. But none of these things are possible without the exercise of objective reason and an, and an agreement between human beings that we live in a shared reality which can be observed and measured. And that is universal. The universal exercise of reason and the scientific method doesn't change if you move from one latitude to another. Gravity is still gravity. Light still operates like light.

I think, to sum up in one sentence, the kind of difference between the non-universalist left and, I guess you could say, aspects of the classically Marxist left is the new left is all about difference as such, like a fetishization of difference. Different things are different, and, you know, they're against the grand narratives that Marxism has. And even if, like, we are to accept, which I don't really, but even if we were to accept that the postmodernists or post-structuralists, be more accurate, I guess, are true or correct in, like, that aspect of like being truth being really hard to nail down, it's a total disaster politically. Like, it's the worst political strategy imaginable. I mean, you tell people like to not have any kind of grand narrative, to be against sort of common standards. Instead of a sort of universal, um, grand narrative, you go for this intersectionality, which I'm sympathetic to those folks because they will add class to the equation, unlike the, you know, Hillary Clinton neoliberal identity politics people. So they at least talk about class, but they do it in this way where it's like they feel every time you mention class, you have to mention gender, you have to mention race, you have to mention all this. And, and if you object to that framework, they think the argument you're making is that you were saying we shouldn't care about race and gender, which is, you know, I don't think that's the argument you're making.

No, no, no, no. Not at all. But I do think that we're, we're in a dark moment. But if you think about, um, things in a more epic historical manner, the life expectancy in China in 1900 was 30. That was before the Chinese, the first Chinese Revolution. The life expectancy in the United States was 37. The United States now has seen a period of time when, um, its life expectancy as an industrialized nation has gone down. That was only the only time we've seen that happen is in Russia in the breakup of the Soviet Union. So in terms of public health and public well-being for the masses, there's been incredible accomplishments in the 20th century and the 21st century. And I don't know if you want to call that a grand narrative, but there has been an epic amount of transformation in terms of the liberation of the majority of human beings on Earth from absolute abject poverty. Now, there is absolute abject poverty in great parts of the world, but Marx really felt that capitalism would unleash the productive potential of human beings so that we could give everyone the possibility of enjoying the leisure time and the life conditions of the bourgeoisie. And that could only be done through the transformation of the productive powers that capitalism unleashed in the 19th century. And yes, there was terrible colonialism that allowed for exploitation of all the, um, all the, uh, British colonies, they were the main, um, empire of the time. But if we want to be anti-imperial, we can't trust ourselves to just be micro, um, niche types. We have to have a bigger plan and a bigger vision. So it's not even, you know, the difference thing I'm just tired of, but it's not even that. In terms of, um, the historical narrative, it's not even grand narrative. You know, what's embedded in Marxism and historical materialism is an epic view of the human struggle for liberation.

What do you mean by that, exactly? Like epic, expanding thousands of years about the transformation of different modes of production from, you know, um, from hunter-gatherer to agricultural to feudal to early mercantile, first industrial revolution, second industrial revolution. Like that's an incredible view of history that everyone should understand. We're all part of it. To post-industrial capital. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Then yeah, it's [ __ ] epic. We're talking millennia of history. It's not just this past 100 years, but we've got to understand our position in that. And we don't because no one has any, um, historical imagination. And capital has wanted to destroy it. And, you know, what this is my problem with a lot of Fury heads too, is that your, the understanding of history is extraordinarily shallow. You know, what makes his, and the way history is taught is extremely boring. But if you think about it from an epic struggle for dignity, for liberate, for mastery of the world, it's [ __ ] epic. What we've accomplished, it's amazing. We've survived this long. I don't know that we'll survive much longer, to be perfectly honest. But, um, it's pretty incredible. And instead of being like, "Oh yeah, we're just settler colonials, we're so bad," that's white supremacy. It's like, let's look at this as part of a human struggle to liberate people from abject poverty and subsistence reproduction of the systems of life to a kind of leisure and intellectual, um, autonomy and agential, um, mastery over their world. So let's take something of what Nietzsche wanted and free everyone, not just like the exceptional few, but free everyone from the, um, oppression of work discipline and standardization.

Very well said. I, I think one of the best examples of that epic history, like works of epic history, is Neil Faulkner's "The Radical History of the World." Uh, a book that I'm not quite finished yet because it's enormous, but it's, I love the way he tells history because he tells it through a Marxist lens, but it's very detailed and it, it's very rigorous. And it's kind of a, it's the antithesis of the problems I've had of the ways leftists have taught history recently with these kind of, um, certain tendencies I've seen come out of postcolonialism, which will say that Marx's view of history is ethnocentric and completely, um, like good example actually is certain academics who have sort of tried to, or not even academics, certain journalists, some one of which you mention in your book, try to portray the American Revolution as actually like just a counter-revolution by slavers and nothing else. Without impact, it was. And, of course, looking at history in that, for not very historically accurate view, but in that sort of view, divorced from any kind of narrative of its global significance, it undermines even that Marxist narrative. And some, a lot of the times they'll explicitly say that they'll say, well, you know, this wasn't, you can't view this progress if it had some dis-emancipations along the way, if it, if black suffered, you can't say that, uh, there was nothing that there was anything progressive about this event, right? They, they have to look at like teaching history in this activist way that is more about reducing how much pain you cause people or how much pain you think you, uh, you, uh, might evoke in telling that history than the actual accuracy and holistic significance of it as a whole, right?

Yeah, it's a kind of anachronistic application of woke politics onto the past. And that's part of the ahistoricism and the historical amnesia that's promoted by, um, like woke retellings of history. Want to use woke or, you know, liberal, neoliberal, or ever, like really bad, really bad neoliberal PMC modified, um, views of it. But that is been rewarded by that view. That bad history has been rewarded by a lot of the most powerful cultural agencies in America and about Canada. But, you know, in America, it's like, yay, that's that's that's good history. It's like telling a story of micro, um, micro experiences and, um, making, uh, claims about grievance that, um, you know, work on PMC white guilt. And, um, we need better history, or this, we won't have history as a, um, um, as a way of understanding the present any longer. And then we'll just be sleepwalking into the future and embedded in infernal repetition, which is I think what we're going for now. I can't, the way that the, um, the Democrats are so trapped in their technocratic authoritarianism just makes me think, oh, we're going to cycle through populism and technocracy, tech populism and technocracy. There doesn't seem to be a way out. And the only way to understand the cycle, I think, is to step out of the whole thing and see a longer historical progression.

I have so many funny things I want to ask related to that, but we'll save that for the back room. Uh, the last question I just want to ask for the public segment, real quick, is because I forgot to ask at the beginning, was the difference between, is there a right and left PMC? Because like people who come out of the academy, for instance, and people who might work for corporate advertising might have very different worldviews. And even engineers, people who work at engineers at Google, for example, are kind of PMC, but, you know, there's something kind of different. Like I think a lot of the PMC that we're talking about is very much the academy and NGO world. But I'm curious, you know, you know, all of, um, the banks and everything, they accepted a lot of these, um, identitarian categories. The, the right-wing, um, man, right-wing managerialism wants to give space for, a kind of explosive entrepreneurial sensibility that is like Teal or Musk, you know? And they still, they still need, they still trust expertise and they still need their credentials, but they want to break through this bureaucracy and this kind of like, what you know, they think of as this, um, oppressive managerial, um, regulatory state that's suppressing this explosive inventive, um, carnivalesque figure that, um, Trump has become. Like they enjoy life, they understand, um, um, they understand, um, risk-taking. And the left liberal elites are just embedded in this regulatory dynamic that's all about suppressing their, um, their creativity and their, um, their explosive future-oriented, um, accomplishment-fueled ideas. But this, you know, capital-fueled ideas. But both represent two different faces of like, um, um, proposing that capitalism is the best mode of, um, human production.

So within the PMC and the regulatory state, you have like the credential institutions, the media, academia, which are really being questioned right now because of COVID, because of Trump, because of all the corruption that is taking place. But they say that they can preserve within this regulatory machinery and the credential machinery a market-free space that has professional standards, like professors and doctors and lawyers, you know, that were free from, um, the marketplace pressures. It was absolute [ __ ]. We are completely oppressed by the rules of the marketplace now. But that we create a better, kinder form of capitalism because we protect certain kinds of expertise from the depredations of a marketplace that is managed for maximum growth. Then you have this idea on the right that you just have these geniuses who have, you know, these, um, tech ideas, engineering ideas, you know, X, Tesla, eBay, and they're just creating wealth and they're creating dynamic growth. And, you know, they're, they're delivering information to us in all these different ways. And they're subverting and they're reacting to you all the time by putting down the left PMC through this, you know, um, um, right-wing dynamism. And Trump has become their avatar, right? Like he's this sort of rules breaker and just this sovereign agent. And he's gonna, you know, [ __ ] things up and [ __ ] up the government. And because that's the best way capitalism works is if you just let a few individuals unleash their potential and their ideas, step back, let the losers lose, let the winners win, let the winners take the most stuff. And it's still a mode of management. It's a mode of management that minimizes regulation. But somebody's still managing these engineers and these workers in terms of workflow and everything else. It's just saying that this mode of management for the dynamic, aristocratic, libertarian visionary is more efficient for capital. And the left PMC is like, no, our pseudo-regulatory liberal institutions, that's the best for capital because we are democratic. And the other, and we represent the democratic institutions. The other side is like, no, you guys hate the people, which is somewhat true. And we really represent the spirit of the people. They're going to come into a lot of problems because MAGA and as we've seen, the tech billionaires have different, um, interests, but so far they've made an alliance. The Dems, I don't think they understand this out of pure hatred of the liberal left PMC. Their politics are about the pure hatred of, um, the left liberal values that have been dominating hegemonically in academia, in the government, in NGO world, in, um, media, in Hollywood, in journalism. They've had a lot of power. And the people, and the people on the bottom who [ __ ] hate them. And then there are like a couple of billionaires who realized we can weaponize this hate, and it's worked. And the, and the Democratic punks are like, "I don't know, man, you know, Pete Buttigieg's numbers were pretty high at the end of the thingy, and we, we, you know, really focused on seven states, and her numbers really went up. And those seven swing states, they have no idea how much people hate them. But you see, it's only, it's because it's because she's a black woman, she's a woman of color, and and people in America are just too backward to accept that. And what do we do with that? Nothing. But we'll just say that as an excuse, doubling down. This is why we're just going to cycle between the regulatory state and this like kind of non-free market tiering.

But actually, it is 2:30 and I have to get to cooking. Okay, let's do 10 minutes of, um, behind the play all. Yeah, we'll transition to the back room right now. Uh, if you're not part of the back room already, you know, we get, you get access to tons of very interesting conversations. And you can, it's cheaper than a price of a Starbucks latte. So stop buying, stop buying that [ __ ] and become a patron of One Dime Radio. My only hope is that when enough people become pessimists, then out of despair, somebody maybe does something. But, you know, why I also like to be a pessimist? Because it's the only way to have a nice life. If you're an optimist, then always bad things happen, and you are always disappointed. When you are a pessimist, then you look around, okay, they are bad, but from time to time, something nice happens. And you, as a pessimist, you are a little bit glad all the time. No, you are listening to One Dime Radio. Become a patron at patreon.com to support the show and get access to extra content.

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Catherine Liu: Why The Left is Out Of Touch | 1Dime Radio

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