1 Michael Jordan Fan vs. 10 LeBron James' Fans

Michael Jordan is still the ultimate winner. Couldn't even beat a bunch of cartoons without Bill Murray. What about Space Jams, too? LeBron James w his team to win. LeBron is a choke artist. What was Jordan doing before Pippen? LeBron had more help to win less. He's the greatest athlete this earth has ever seen.

I am a diehard Michael Jordan fan here to take on these 10 LeBron James fans. I have five claims for you today and each one will be hotter than the last. Before we get into it though, big shout out to Threads. Make sure to follow House of Highlights on Threads to keep the convo going. My first claim today, MJ was the ultimate winner and LeBron is not.

If we're talking about like who the bigger winner is, right? You do have to also acknowledge that there are things outside of what happened on the basketball court that makes LeBron James a better winner because Michael Jordan. So Michael Jordan retired twice, right? The first time he retired, he went to go play baseball and sucked playing baseball. Then he became an owner of the Charlotte Hornets and they sucked for forever, right? So we're going to pull in like what he represents as the brand of basketball, right? Than the things that Michael Jordan did off the basketball court. The things that Michael Jordan did as the owner, the one that makes the decision, the the the thing that a lot of you Jordan's fans complain about LeBron doing, oh, because he sits in the back and he picks who comes where. Well, at least he's building teams that's winning championships.

My claim is Michael Jordan's the ultimate winner. Obviously, I'm talking about on the basketball court. You're basically saying he stunk at baseball and was bad at being an owner. Therefore, he is not the ultimate NBA winner. Is that what you're telling me? I just want to make sure that.

Well, didn't you didn't say NBA winner. You said what? Did he suck at baby?

So what did Okay. SO SO. DID MICHAEL JORDAN suck at when Michael Jordan was an owner, right? Were the Charlotte Hornets producing? Okay. So then if he's the ultimate winner, then all of these things.

Well, let's talk about then the fact that he won a collegiate national championship. Let's talk about there. You know why LeBron didn't go to college in high school and he got picked number one overall out of high school.

LeBron James played international basketball and he has two bronze medals. Michael Jordan never lost a single game in international play. 30 and 0 for gold medals.

Wait, last I checked, Michael Jordan was on the team with Charles Barkley and and and and he great players. You know when Michael Jordan's gold medals came by any chance?

Talk to me.

One of them came in 1984 when we weren't sending pros and it was still collegiate players at that point. You say that Jordan's been on with all kinds of great players. LeBron's been on those same teams with all these great players and he still has two bronze and Jordan has no bronze. He has four goals and not one single loss.

Can we both agree the discrepancy between US basketball and international basketball then and now is much different?

Sure.

Okay. So then what are we talking about if the talent over.

Also talking about 6 and 0 and four and six in the finals?

Michael Jordan's never stepped foot on a basketball court with a player that can shoot the ball as well as Steph Curry has. He's never seen a basketball player as gifted as a scorer as unique as a guy like Kevin Durant. So we can sit here and splice the 6 and 0 and the four and six. But let's also remember if Michael Jordan doesn't retire the first time in two years, he's not winning those two championships. So he could be six and two. We can also talk about that if Steve Kerr doesn't hit a shot in whatever game that was. They went a series that way, right? Michael Jordan comes back. They lost in the second round of the playoffs. So we're talking about being a winner. He's one and nine before Scottie Pippen arrived to Chicago. So how much winning really.

I'm not Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. You want to take away a Steve Kerr hit a shot championship? Uh LeBron James was down 3-2 and down five points in an elimination game when Ray Allen saved his ass in that game. I didn't I didn't take that away. LeBron James is also responsible for the greatest playoff run you've ever seen in your lifetime.

Also false. I didn't take that away. So, I'm giving LeBron a better playoff run than three and one in the finals.

And by the way, oh, and speaking of that, uh, there was a suspension and multiple injuries that we have to sort out, but I'm not taking that away. Hold on. Hold on. He's got four. Jordan's got six. LeBron's lost six times. Jordan's never lost. Listen, if he's in one singular moment where he can just flex his all-time greatness as you would to say the GOAT, don't you think then we can count that against him if he loses in those moments? Would you not agree with that?

Sure. But also in these moments when LeBron James has flexed his all-time greatness. How many times in those moments has he failed?

Plenty. In 2011, he was in his eighth season. He was fresh off of back-to-back league MVPs. He again recruited a top three player to play with him in Dwyane Wade from the year before. Dwyane Wade if he went to.

They went to each other whatever. And people say boss top 10 top 15. I'm not talking that idiocy but he's top 20. He was top 20. So a top three and a top 20 player in a series against one all-star in Dirk Nowitzki.

Look 2011 sucked. 2011 was a is is a massive on anyone's legacy. It's not.

Dwyane Wade averaged 27 points on 55% in that series. Chris Bosh was averaging 19-7 and LeBron James was the third leading scorer on his own team. He then also got outscored in that series by Dirk Nowitzki and Jason Terry who was coming off the bench and played 70 fewer minutes than LeBron James. They were up 2-1 the Miami Heat. They were up nine in the fourth quarter of game four to go up 3-1 in that series. And they lost that game 86-83 in that game. LeBron James played more minutes than anybody. 45 minutes. Three of 11 shooting eight points in 45 minutes for a back-to-back league MVP in his eighth season. THAT IS THIS IS YOUR GOAT. THIS IS YOUR ALL-TIME WINNER.

I'M NOT GOING TO SIT HERE AND try to make it more. Do you need more concrete example?

I am not going to sit here trying to make like the 2011 finals is a good thing.

Can you give me an instance of Jordan failing in that spectacular of a of a level?

I think being forced to retire after winning three straight champions.

How was he forced to retire?

He had a gambling problem. Yeah.

Oh man.

WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? HE HAD A GAMBLING PROBLEM AND THEY GOT HIM OUT OF THERE. AND AND IF MICHAEL JORDAN were playing, I will give you this. Michael Jordan were playing basketball in the 2020s when gambling is loved all over the place, he would have he would have been forced to retire. Here's the thing. I'm not going to sit here and spin the 2011 finals for you. That sucked. It was really, really bad. I watched my dad. I cried. It wasn't good. I'm not going to tell you otherwise. But what I am saying to you is LeBron James to be able to be who he is to live up to the expectation that he had to live live up to coming out of Akron Ohio being drafted number one overall. Who's the greatest game seven performer of any sport in your lifetime?

This guy's bringing UP GAME SEVENS. JORDAN NEVER EVEN PLAYED IN GAME SEVENS. THAT'S HOW GREAT HE WAS. HE NEVER PLAYED IN ONE SINGLE GAME SEVEN IN THE NBA FINALS BECAUSE HE'S TOO GOOD.

What was Jordan doing before Pippen? He He wasn't winning championships.

How many All-Stars did he play with before Scotty Pippen?

He was on me.

None. We're talking about what did Jordan do once he got one serviceable All-Star on his team? That's what we're talking about. More than serviceable.

Fine. But LeBron had two perennial All-Stars in Miami. He had two perennial All-Stars in Cleveland. And he had a top five player in Anthony Davis when he won in LA. So to say that, oh, Jordan just couldn't win without P. We just didn't have anybody else. LeBron couldn't win at all with anybody else either. In fact, two All-Stars.

LeBron have an 07.

Well, more All-Stars. More more. HOLD ON. HOLD ON. More All-Stars than Jordan.

Galactus made All-Stars. Mo Williams. It's more than all. All right. Okay. Well, you asked me who did he have. You asked me who he had. More All-Stars than Michael Jordan had before Scotty Pippen. Scotty Pippen came in the NBA and he averaged eight points and 14 points his first two years. Wasn't an All-Star. Became an All-Star in '89-'90. That was the first year he was classified All-Star. In that year, in '89-'90, Michael Jordan went to the Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons. In that series, Michael Jordan averaged 32, 7, and 6 in that series. His All-Star Scotty Pippen averaged 16 in that series. And then in game seven, Michael Jordan had 31, 9, and 8 in game seven. Scotty Pippen in 45 minutes, two points. So Jordan lost when he got his first one-time All-Star, he lost that ECF in seven. The Pistons went on easily, won the championship that year. Then the next season after that, as Pippen finally ascended to All-Star, Jordan won six of the next seven NBA championships. What did LeBron have in 2018 when he drew that 2018 team?

We're talk like I mean yeah they you know they got Swag Jeff Green they made it Jordan Jordan never faced 18. We'll get to this later. Jordan never fac anywhere near as good as the 2018 Warriors or any of those Warriors teams.

This is the fallacy of you people. And when I say when I say when I say when I say you people I mean LeBron jock sniffers and bootlickers. That's what I mean. This is You're bringing up a year where he didn't EVEN WIN. YOU'RE BRINGING UP A YEAR HE GOT SWEPT IN THE FINALS.

AND YOU BROUGHT UP the conference finals and you didn't discredit Jordan for you brought up the conference finals like stat.

You can you can take that you can count it against him cuz he didn't win that year. Whatever.

But but what did Jordan do otherwise? Oh, six championships in the next seven years. What did LeBron do after 2018?

Yeah. And.

Gallivanting all over the NBA. Two All-Stars. Two All-Stars. The top five player. Like look at Anthony Davis the year. So LeBron had two perennial All-Stars to win his first three rings. His fourth and final ring with Anthony Davis that year, Anthony Davis led the Lakers in points and rebounds in the regular season. He led them in scoring in the playoffs, win shares in the playoffs. He also was All-NBA 1, All-NBA Defense 1, DPOY 2, MVP 6. That's what he's a top five player, the ultimate winner. He had co-coach. He had Phil Jackson.

And LeBron has LeBron has eight guys that made 17 different All-Star the same.

Selections when he played with them. Jordan had one guy that made six All-Star appearances.

And one of the greatest defenders of all time.

Okay. But I'm just saying LeBron had more help to win less.

The fact that you just brought up the Detroit Pistons game as like a negative for LeBron. They were down by seven with three minutes left. He scored 25 in a row, 29 to 30. He scored all 18 points for negative.

He scored all 18 points in overtime. That's one of the most clutch performances of all time. They shouldn't have been. So now we want to discredit the Spurs series cuz he didn't play well. The team should not have been in that position.

But wait, the Pistons that year, they had the essentially the same number of wins. They were the same net rating in terms of net differential.

You want to know why? Because LeBron James was all team. You want to talk about Jordan being the third rated net defense that year that held the Spurs to 86 points per game.

Well, he was the one scoring 29 out of 30. YOU WANT TO YOU WANT to talk about the Bulls, the ultimate winning machine. That's because they went from 57 wins to 55 wins in 1994 or '93 when Jordan retired for the first time or retired. Who knows what happened, right? They lost two less games. They made it to they lost in game seven to the Knicks in the second round. That team in the Phantom call in game five. The Bulls fans don't like talking about it. That team should have went to the Eastern Conference Finals without Michael Jordan. They had a top 20 player of all time, Scotty Pippen, top three MVP, top three defensive player of the year, first team All-NBA, first team All-Defense. That was the guy. The greatest coach of all time, Phil Jackson. Greatest six man of all time coming in. Greatest re I mean.

HEY, WE I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT HELP. I WASN'T talking about supporting cats. Just But if you do, we certainly can't.

LeBron James failed seven straight years in Cleveland. Couldn't get it done. Fine.

What a failure to you.

He was the league MVP with the best record in the NBA in back-to-back years. And he didn't even make it to the finals.

BECAUSE THEY HAD NO WILLIAMS. THEY HAD NO WILLIAMS AND ANTOINE. Why do you think THEY WENT 66 AND 68? WHY? BECAUSE THEY HAD THE GREATEST player of all time.

So, let's talk about it then. He couldn't win in seven years. Whatever you want to call it, FAILURE OR NOT, HE COULD NOT. IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT. SO, WHAT ABOUT WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP? It's not all about winning a championship.

You sound like Giannis Antetokounmpo right now. Phil, there is no failure in sports.

OKAY. SO, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ULTIMATE WINNER. YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT You want to talk about supporting cast? So, let's do it. He couldn't win. Whatever you want to say. He He was great in seven years, but he didn't win a championship. He moves on to Miami. You want to talk about what what Scotty Pippen was doing the the year Jordan was there? Let's talk about Dwyane Wade. The year before the team up, Dwyane Wade was All-NBA 1.

Okay.

He was All-NBA Defense 2.

He was second in the NBA that year in PER, BPM, VORP, and Win Share. Second only to LeBron James. Hold on.

And he was MVP 5 the year before that. He was MVP 3. Dwyane Wade was a top three player in the NBA. Then hold on, they recruited Chris Bosh. What did Chris Bosh do that year? 24-11. He was fourth in PER, 18th in BPM, 19th in VORP, and 20th IN WIN SHARE, TOP 20 player in the NBA.

Why were the Bulls still a top five team in basketball when Michael Jordan left?

Why did LeBron have to bring in two top 15 players on every team?

No, they didn't. Yes, he did.

Dwyane Wade, WHY DID CHRIS BOSH HAVE 10 points in that game?

Kyrie Irving, KEVIN LOVE.

HE HASN'T QUESTION.

Anthony Davis.

Yeah, THEY'RE GREAT PLAYERS. HAVE YOU WATCHED THE NBA? YOU NEED LIKE FOUR ALL-STARS TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS NOW. I MEAN, HAVE YOU SEEN HOW good the NBA was?

Yes, we'll get into the we'll get into the the competition. Don't worry. Dwyane Wade before in the years before was more was a better player than SCOTTY PIPPEN BEFORE. THAT word carries a lot of weight.

You were talking about Scottie Pippen when Jordan's not in the league. So, I'm talking about Dwyane Wade before he joined with LEBRON JAMES.

BUT THEN SCOTTY PIPPEN THING SCOTTY Pippen did was when Jordan WAS PLAYING BASEBALL.

YEAH. WHEN HE WAS STRIKING OUT MORE THAN GETTING HITS. WHAT A SHAME BASEBALL. PEOPLE ACT LIKE HE RIPPED. HE B HE BATTED .190 SINGLE A MY COUSIN DID BETTER THAN THAT.

You got me. Jordan was not a great baseball player.

How many championships did Bill Russell win?

11.

Okay. How many did Robert Horry win?

Uh seven I believe.

Okay. 11 and seven are greater than six. Yes.

For sure.

He cannot be the greatest winner of all time if there's players with more championships than him just based off of that alone. Yeah. Also, LeBron James is four and six.

Okay. Michael Jordan 6 and 0 in the finals.

Right? Which that's a better record.

Let's do some simple addition. Four + 6 equals.

10.

6 plus 0 equals.

6.

So in order for him to go to 10 finals, he had to have won more than Michael Jordan did because Michael Jordan only went to six finals. So winning is not winning doesn't start in the finals. Winning starts game one out of 82. So then to get to the playoffs, now I got to win 16 more to win the championship. Right.

Yeah. So now I'm winning more games than you have won because I went to 10 straight finals.

There's a lot to unpack there. Can I start or do you still going? Okay. First of all, Bill Russell, there were anywhere between 8 to 14 teams leaguewide uh back in the day when Bill Russell was doing what he also played at the peak of that run. He had six uh to eight other Hall of Famers on the court with him. So um again, Jordan not even a single All-Star till uh the '89-'90 season. and he came in the NBA in '84. Um, okay. Finally, Bill Russell was anywhere between the third to sixth leading scorer on those teams. See, Jordan was and f and yes, Bill Russell is arguably the greatest individual defender, but Michael Jordan also has uh eight top six defensive player of the year finishes, nine first team defensive selections. So he's still so he is still an elite defender in his own right while leading the NBA not just his teams in scoring leading the NBA in scoring every year and in the playoffs every year substantially by a lot 33 and a half points per game in the postseason. Only one other player in basketball history is in the 30 point per game range in the playoffs. Luka Dončić 30 still three points behind uh Michael Jordan. So by far look no disrespect to Bill Russell I have Bill Russell higher on my all-time list than LeBron James. He he is he is an elite all-time playerous but absolutely but Michael Jordan is still the ultimate winner because once he got one single All-Star in his peak.

Right.

He won six out of seven he repeated he three repeated twice like to me and the fact that he was the best player on offense by far and the best player at his position defensively by far in the NBA over that span of time to me the the pool that he had the ask that he at the things he had to do, the responsibilities on those teams outweigh what you're talking about with Bill Russell and they certainly damn sure with Robert Horry.

I'm just saying we talk about winning, right? We talk about winning that context. There's also context to what you're saying about there's eight to 10 teams or whatever in the NBA, right? So now we're we're devaluing the competition that Bill Russell had to play with. We can do the same thing for Michael Jordan. There's nobody hitting a there's nobody hitting a step-back three when Michael Jordan was winning his championships. Allen Iverson hit Michael Jordan with a crossover. He almost fell out his shoes. What are we talking about? If if Michael Jordan had to go see James Harden, if Michael Jordan had to go see Steph Curry, Damian Lillard, Kyrie Irving, he would be looking like, "What the hell is going on? I don't know what's going on. I've never seen nothing like this." So, we can say the same thing we're saying about the era is not as good. The same argument applies. And that would only lead um to us coming to the conclusion that LeBron would be better because he's facing better talent. But that's a whole different argument. But I don't see the point. Look, ultimately in six finals appearances, Michael Jordan was 24 and 11. That's 69% win win percentage. LeBron James was 22 and 33.

Okay, now let's add all of the rounds that happened before the finals, which are wins, which are on his back. He never has.

LeBron LeBron James was in the easier by far of the two conferences. Vastly inferior conference in the Eastern Conference for the main majority of his career. And we're going to get into this with the competition. We're going to get into this and yes, but the East was better back when Jordan was playing. Basically, when Jordan retired is when the the West took over for this whole century. How convenient. It is convenient for LeBron. What happened once LeBron went to the West? He was going to all these finals. He went to one final. He went to one finals. He's been in He's been in the West in eight years. He went to one finals versus nine finals in 15 years in the East. See the difference? Nine and 15 years in the East and then one in eight years in the West. So convenient for LeBron. Prime of life versus aging NBA player.

Listen, so there's 15 All-NBA players every year. Yep.

All right. Not specific to conference. 23 of the All-NBA designated players over LeBron's 15 years in the East came from the West. 23. So the best players, the best teams by far were in the West. That's why he loses every time he gets to the finals against those. No, just just 6 out of 10 because he failed in the clutch time which substantially hindered his ring count. And we can get into it because I've got the numbers. I've got the receipts of how big of a choke artist he is in clutch time in the finals.

It sounds like we're moving the goalposts a little bit, but.

We're not moving them at all. The guy the guy is a miserable failure in clutch time in the finals. That's why he only has four and not six or seven.

And that's why Bill Russell has 11 and Robert Horry has seven. it.

Michael Jordan faced harder competition than LeBron James.

I did not drive three and a half hours to listen to this absolute blasphemy.

73 and N. The best regular season record of all time.

The best shooter in the planet.

My buddy Owen.

Yeah.

OWEN 32 WHEN WE'RE DOWN THREE GAMES TO ONE. Klay Thompson. People don't even want to say things in a postgame pressure anymore cuz Klay Thompson woke the beast. He came out and dominated the best team ever assembled 73 and N. Steph Curry WAS SHOOTING FROM THE parking lot and LeBron James w his team to win. I mean, there was the little inconvenient thing in that series of Kyrie Irving who outscored Steph Curry, who shot higher percentages than Steph Curry from the free throw line, the three-point line, the field. Uh he averaged more assists than Steph Curry. He had fewer turnovers than Steph Curry. He basically outplayed the unanimous MVP as well that year. The two best players on the floor were LeBron and his teammates Kyrie Irving. So and Kyrie Irving who had a 45-point uh game in game five to save off elimination on the road on 80% true shooting. Now there's also the suspension.

Who was who was right next to who who got hit? of of course it was of course it was LeBron mixed up with Draymond Draymond's hand gravitated towards LeBron's groin area. It's it's happening now too. I mean we see it we see it we can't I mean it's we can't blame we can't blame Dre for that. Okay. It's just like it's a magnet. Like it just LeBron's groin my hand is is flying through it. Anyway, also too much stuff on your feelings on your eye test. I'm talking just stone cold facts and data. All right.

Okay. I got you with stone cold facts and data. Okay. So, let's do it. So, LeBron James.

Was favored three times going into an NBA finals. He went two and one in those.

He was an underdog seven times.

And won two of those. Jordan was favored every single time. LeBron James willed teams to play in the NBA finals that no one could ever even imagine.

Future Eastern Conference. But go ahead.

All right. Well, I'm not even going to touch that because the fact that he would take these these players, it's LeBron.

These players, those eight guys that made 17 All-Star games while playing with.

Did Jordan ever win without Pippen?

Jordan had one All-Star that made six All-Star appearances when playing with him. LeBron had eight different All-Stars and made 17 All-Star games.

He's going through top 75 players in his playoff runs.

Oh, I'm glad you're trying to get into the the harder competition thing. Jordan isn't playing against Jokic and and the best shooter to ever grace this earth and Kevin Durant. Like I could suit up and play in the '90s. Like it's just completely different. Jordan went to the same practice facility, the same coaches, the same teammates. He won with so many so many players have rings because of LeBron and so many don't because of LeBron.

I'll tell you you people, I'll tell you.

It's a shame we don't have a statistic that can match an individual player in these.

There is and I have more.

There's points. There is more that I can give you.

EVEN TOP 10 IN POINTS. LEBRON'S GOT 10,000 more points.

Oh, because he played so much so many more games.

EXACTLY. CUZ HE'S THE GREATEST ATHLETE THIS EARTH HAS EVER SEEN. Nobody in the '90s could shoot and tactics were really rudimentary and bad and you know the last.

The defense was much better though.

No, it really wasn't.

Yeah.

Beating someone up is not really defense.

Well, wouldn't you admit that it's harder to score and make these highlight plays when you're getting beat up and mugged and grabbed? Wouldn't you admit that?

Well, I would. Those guys can't touch you and just running up and down making wide open shots.

They invented the game for the purpose.

That these players would not strike each other. That was the whole purpose of the invention of the foul.

Back in 18 whatever that was.

So if they were doing it by that intent in the '90s, then probably these guys would have looked a little more skilled and better.

That's really not what we're talking about. The general skill of the average player in 2026 for basketball is so much greater.

This is the problem with what you're what you're talking about.

Let's hear it. It's because it's all about your feelings and your individual eye test. It is. You keep making you keep stating all of these things that are not factual at all. You're saying we all agree. We all agree. I don't agree. I disagree. Kobe Bryant's the most skillful player I've ever seen. He was drafted in 1996, a year before you were born, so you probably don't even remember seeing him play in his peak. And then he retired. He popped his Achilles in 2013. So, we don't agree. Furthermore, Furthermore, how how was the the game play in the 1960s? Actually, I think I'm rather qualified to answer that question because I worked on the Bill Russell Legend documentary that's on Netflix now. So, I've watched a huge amount of that era. And how did Wilt Chamberlain play? He was like Omega Webb who was 300 lb and he kind of just said, "Throw me the ball and I'll just jump up and dunk it."

So, you would admit that Bill Russell was an elite player.

Absolutely. He's in the top five or six of all-time players.

So, Wilt Chamberlain was in an era with him.

Yes. And yet people like you in revision in revisionism will say, "Oh, well, he was just playing against 6'6 guys that couldn't defend him and that's why he was so great." He was playing in an era with Bill Russell. So that's an obvious fallacy.

But my my my point here is the problem is with you saying the '90s stink is like everybody's eye tests are different. They see different things. They've experienced and lived through different things. So I don't want to talk about So I don't want to talk about I don't want to talk about your feelings or your eye test. I'm talking about specific measurable things. So do you want do you care about do you care team and all he does is shoot. The entire team is function that hey everyone get out of Michael Jordan's way so he can shoot 25 or 28 or 32 times.

So what you're saying is he's not efficient.

Yes. He's the volume guy. And that's how in 15 years or whatever it was, including the two where he just was doing absolutely nothing and embarrassing himself at the end of his career and like falling over and getting dunked on by young men with athleticism. It was like he's just running it up. Like I don't understand what we're talking about here.

Okay, I understand.

And what does he do better than what does he do better than LeBron? Let's talk about that.

Score, defend, win.

No. No.

Okay. But but wait, but wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second.

Can I answer anything that you just said? I I I I can't even get a word in edgewise here. Look, Jordan scored what he scored in an era where scoring per game was substantially lower than it is right now. That's one. But you're talking about efficiency. Fine. Hey, I'm with you. Let's talk efficiency. Player efficiency rating, which measures. Absolutely.

Let's talk BPM, PER, efficiency metrics. You're saying Jordan was a gunner. He was inefficient. LeBron's more. So, why is it that, riddle me this, why is it that in all of LeBron James' peak, he never once eclipsed Michael Jordan in regular season PER, BPM? Never once eclipsed Jordan in playoff PER, BPM. And guess what? Nikola Jokic is number one in those things. So, Jokic was able to do it. LeBron wasn't.

You know, from the moment that LeBron stepped on the scene, there's been just gentlemen like yourself who This is the key topic of conversation. We all talk about the scandalless person, scandalless, this person who is fantastic and like has all these.

Attributes to him. He's under a microscope. So, he understands that if he goes out there and he shoots 32 or 35 times like the the GOAT, his Airness or whatever it is, he would just say, "Look at this guy. Doesn't he know he has teammates? Doesn't he know this, that, and the third? He's a selfish." You know, anything LeBron would do, they would do the opposite is.

Because he was afraid to to take those shots. Open shot.

Because he choked unequivocally in the biggest moments in the.

6' n flying tanks and to drive through the air and dunk on someone. Does that mean he's afraid of you? No, I don't think so. He's just making choke artist when it matters.

This is why he has the most buzzer beaters in history. The most clutch shots to go ahead in the last 30 seconds, last 10 seconds, 15 seconds, 5 seconds.

He is the antithesis of clutch when it matters. And we're going to talk about that at some point in this in this uh in this show.

Falsehoods.

Okay, welcome me here. I think about NBA history. It's like a story, right?

Mhm. And when you when you're telling the story of the NBA, the modern NBA, right, 21st century.

Right?

What teams are you spending the most time talking about? Right. What dynasties propped up in the 21st century?

Well, the the Bulls are the greatest dynasty in modern era. In modern era, post 1976 ABA NBA merger. The Bulls are the greatest.

There's an organization known as the San Antonio Spurs.

And the only time they lost during the Tim Duncan window.

Was to a LeBron James led team. You want to talk about the Golden State Warriors who almost had.

Lost twice.

Okay. But Tim Duncan's only finals loss came to LeBron James. And then you want to talk about.

But he beat him two times out of three.

Great. But I'm just saying if there is any argument, there's a flaw in their armor. LeBron James was the reason for that. And then you want to talk about the the Golden State Warriors who almost had the perfect season. LeBron James is the reason they didn't.

Curry beat him three times out of four in the finals.

But when he lost, it was coming off of the greatest regular season, right? A unanimous MVP, historic season. That story didn't end well because LeBron James had a different ending, right? You want to talk about the Boston Celtics? LeBron James put a knife in the heart of the Boston Celtics dynasty on their last legs and made sure to send Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce packing to Brooklyn, right? LeBron James keeps showing up uh in competition with these great teams, these great Hall of Fame players, and ending their hopes. I told you that we're writing a story. When you write the story of NBA history, I'm not spending a lot of pages on the Barkley Suns. I'm not spending a lot of pages on the Shawn Kemp, Gary. WAIT, WAIT. I'M NOT JORDAN. I'M not done. I'm not spending a lot of pages on the Karl Malone and Stockton Jazz, but I am spending a lot of pages on the San Antonio Spurs who LeBron beat. I'm spending a lot of pages talking about Kevin Durant and Stephen Curry, who LeBron beat. I'm spending a lot of pages talking about all these Hall of Famers and LeBron has.

How many times in Michael Jordan's career playoffs did he play either the MVP of the NBA or a year that he won the MVP, the runner-up to himself?

Would any of those players who were MVP or runner-up be better than Tim Duncan all-time or Stephen Curry all-time or Kevin Durant all-time?

Here's the problem. I'm not putting Barkley above those guys. I'm not putting those guys.

Karl Malone is the third all-time leading scorer in NBA history.

That has never mattered more.

Hold on. He's the third all-time leading scorer in NBA history.

He in in three straight years he went MVP runner-up to Jordan MVP MVP. He averages 25 and 10 for a 19-year career.

He also had a playoff playoff efficiency drop.

If he won championships, he would be a top 10 to top 12 player if he won championships. if though.

He didn't because Jordan didn't let it happen. He didn't eat on Jordan's watch. That's the point. Like these people's legacies are inflated in some degree because they're getting rings on LeBron's watch. Jordan didn't let that happen.

Jordan also didn't play for a quarter of a century, right? You want to talk about All-NBA. Wait, mentioned All-NBA. LeBron has the most All-NBA first teams of any player ever, right? I think another angle on the competition, LeBron is also competing with father time and he's giving him some blows because you talk about LeBron James.

Is this about his his competition?

Well, you're you're talking about All-NBA as a metric of greatness that I'm going to flip that around on you because LeBron has made All-NBA more than anyone. He is the youngest player to ever make an All-NBA All-NBA team. He is the oldest player to make an All-NBA team. He has done things throughout his career. We always talk about, oh, this guy was ahead of his time. This guy, if his game was a year earlier or a decade earlier, excuse me. LeBron has shown that. LeBron has played across all these different iterations of the NBA. He's played in the dead ball era in the 2000s. He's played in the pace and space era. He's played in the small ball era. He is still playing. A couple weeks ago, he played against the Houston Rockets at 41 and was the most impactful player in the series. So, if you want to talk about competing, LeBron is competing with conventional wisdom of what greatness looks like and he's winning that conversation.

Listen, if you want to talk about elite, right, and we're going to talk about longevity in a bit.

But LeBron has won his last MVP at 28. He won. He was last designated. Hold on. He was last designated All-NBA Defense at 29. Okay. He's been All-NBA 1, All-NBA selection one team once since 33. Jordan at.

Think about what you just said. Hold on.

33.

Hold on. In his last year, Michael Jordan before he retired three years and came back at like 40 to play the Wizards, which we pretend in his No, we can talk about those if you want. But in his la in his last year, he was 34 at the beginning of the year, turned 35 in February, 35 the second half of the year. Jordan was All-NBA 1, All-NBA Defense 1, MVP 1, Finals MVP 4, MVP of the Finals champion, right?

So, uh, LeBron James' his longevity pretty overrated in my estimation because Jordan was more peaked later than LeBron James was.

You know, Michael Jordan, we talked about killer instinct. LeBron has killer instinct too because LeBron continues adding to his game so he can adapt and play in the modern era. He's not just sticking around taking threes in the corner like he could be doing. He's 41 years old, giving you 21, 7, and 7, outplaying lottery picks and high draft picks in the playoffs in the Houston Rockets with Shangoon and all those guys. LeBron doing that is a testament to him being willing to adapt and evolve so he can be impactful as the first option, second option or third option. Whatever the Lakers need him to do, he's still doing it because he can still do it and no one else has ever done that.

That was a terrific soliloquy. It really was.

Uh first of all, you're a beautiful man. You uh I understand why it's hard to argue. I mean, your jawline is Hollywood. These lights are really.

Don't cut this.

This is your It's good lighting.

Go ahead.

I mean, you get pissed over there. You get up here, you're like, "Oh shit." Just don't look at me in the eyes. You know, um.

Don't you cut this. Don't you cut that out.

The Jordan playing better competition. I mean, you asked Jordan in The Last Dance, he laughs at all his competition. He said, "Oh, these guys are freaking bums." He never had to play the Kevin Durant Warriors. They were an NBA cheat code. You had a 73-win team and then you added Kevin Durant. I mean, that team beats any team in NBA history.

The 2018 playoffs, the second year they were together, that they ran uh LeBron off in four games, 4-0 sweep. What if I were to tell you that in the Western Conference Finals, we were talking off camera before the show started about what a loser James Harden is. What if I were to tell you.

That the Houston Rockets led by James Harden not only took them to seven, they were up 12 at halftime of game seven and then little game James came out and crapped in his pants but a.

And Chris Paul was great that series. Chris Paul was great. He didn't play games. He didn't play right but he was great for six games. They likely if he didn't get hurt probably they were up 12 at halftime and little game James came out and crapped in his pants and there was no Chris Paul. You're saying no team in NBA history could have ever beaten that team. James Harden led team almost beat them the series before.

Almost. And then he choked against the best team that was ever assembled in NBA history. Who who was LeBron James' running mate that year?

Well, the year before it was Steph Curry and they traded Steph Curry for 2018.

Who was LeBron James' running mate? 2018. Who who was his number two?

Well, his his only his only like All-Star caliber player was Kevin Love after they traded after they traded.

And was he an All-Star that year?

No.

No. So, he was All-Star caliber according to.

What about the year before in 2017 when they lost 4-1?

When he had Kyrie Irving.

And Kyrie for a second year in a row? Because remember in 2016, we already talked about it earlier. I said Kyrie outscored Curry and outshot him from every level. Three-point, free throw, two-point, right?

And LeBron James was the best player on that team.

Hold on, hold on. In the next year in 2017, that unbeatable team uh that that year in 2017.

They weren't they never got beat when they're healthy.

Irving still outscored Curry in that series and outshot him from every every range to standard, two, three, and free throw. So, and oh, and Kevin Love, who was a perennial All-Star then, gave you 16 and 11 in that series. The thing that was the big difference was Durant versus LeBron. Both those guys numbers look terrific in that series, but KD was the guy that was getting it done in clutch time. KD was the one that was cooking in the fourth quarters of th of that series. That's why LeBron failed in those in those series. But even still, even if I grant you that those losses weren't LeBron's fault, he's played 23 years. He's been in 19 playoff runs. Like, it's not about the failures. It's about the collective successes and what you do to offset the failures. LeBron has had more time than LeBron than than Michael Jordan. Way more to to answer some of these questions to the ones that oh weren't his fault or the 2011 epic choke job. And he just simply hasn't done enough to outweigh all of the failures in his career. Jordan's peak trumps LeBron's longevity.

What specifically are are we are we comparing from?

I don't want to No, please you you lead the way and I'll respond to you. You want you want me to lay it out to you?

I would love for you to lay it out for me. Yeah, it's easier for me to beat you if I just know what I'm doing step by step.

Perfect. Well, LeBron James, because he is so elite in terms of his longevity and the fact that he's been basically peak from oh, I don't know, 22 now, so 21 years worth of it. Um, I would expect him to have been far more accomplished. We're not even talking about winning. I would expect him to be far more accomplished in terms of an individual and has shown his individual dominance over Michael Jordan with all of the additional years that he's had the ability to be out there accruing these things.

He's got the the longest peak in eSports ever seen. That's not a showcase of his individual dominance.

So 22 actual qualified years because he only played 45 games one year. He didn't he didn't register for awards and year-end things and stuff like that. And same with Jordan. He broke his foot in year two. He came in at age 21, broke his foot in year two, played missed all of that season, basically played only 17 games.

Then he retired at 30. I know you think you have some conspiracy theory thing that he was forced out, but they called him and said he left at 30 and then missed that whole season and most of the next season. He came back only 18 games at so that so those years don't m like the broken foot year where he played 17. Those are unqualified years. So 13 total qualified years for Jordan and 22 total qualified years for LeBron.

Sure.

In 22 years, let's talk standard because LeBron's the king of stats, the king of the of the box metric. So let's talk standard things, right? How many times did LeBron James win a standard box crown being points, rebounds, assists, steals, or blocks? How many times in his 22 qualified seasons?

Not often.

One time he led the league in scoring, one time he led the league in assists. How many standard crowns did Michael Jordan win in his 13 qualified years? A lot more than two.

10 times he led the league in scoring 10. And he led the league in steals three times. 13 standard crowns in 13 qualified years for two standard crowns in LeBron's 22 years.

Which era of scoring was better? LeBron's era of.

Scoring or Jordan's era of scoring? Well, it was way harder to score when Jordan. I didn't ask you that. I didn't ask you was harder to do. First of all, we just talked about how there you couldn't double. You couldn't play zone. I'm not talking about I'm asking which era of scoring was better. Which era? Whose era of scoring had better scorers? Which era are we talking about? 2004. LeBron and Jordan. Whose era had better scorers? Hang on. If LeBron, which which years do you want to look at for LeBron? The existence of LeBron James's career versus the existence of Michael Jordan. Whose time playing basketball were there better scorers? Apply the term better. Who's What era had better people putting the ball in the hoop? I don't understand how much simpler this can be. Better scoring. What do you mean? More guys who had better scores. I mean, Jordan is the all-time leading scorer in NBA history per game and he and he's has led the league in scoring 10. So, I guess if that guy played in the 90s, that's better, right? I'm saying aside from LeBron and Jordan, cuz LeBron's the greatest scorer the game's ever seen. Aside from those two players, aside from them, who else in their eras were just as good, if not better at them than scoring as what I'm asking?

Okay. Well, let me let me turn this around on you real quick. No, he doesn't answer questions. Hold on. If I were if I were to concede that maybe that it was LeBron's maybe. It's not maybe, that's a fact. Let me ask you this though because when you ask me what was the best era of scoring? I didn't ask you. Hold on. That's not the question I asked you. That is not the question. In the 1960s that was the best era in scoring. I didn't ask you that though. But I didn't ask that. Can I make my point? You're answering a question that wasn't asked. Your inference is this. It's not an inference. Well, look, if I'm not allowed to answer the question, then I'm not going to answer your questions then. How about that? You you're answering a question. I didn't ask I didn't ask you the best era of scoring ever. I asked you between your point between your point. If there are better scorers when when LeBron's playing basketball, wouldn't it make more sense that LeBron doesn't have as many scoring crowns as Michael Jordan? And let me pass. If there are better passers in LeBron's era than Jordan's era, wouldn't it make sense? Also, LeBron's not a point guard. Talk to me because I know what your inference was that oh well, there's just better scorers now. That's an inference. That's a fact. So, let me follow up with that. How many Kevin Durant were running on in the '90s? Are the best scoring era in NBA? Because I'm trying to answer your point. The 60s was the best scoring era in NBA history. And Will Chamberlain lived in the 1960s. You don't even like the 60s. So, you would think that because the 60s were easier to score in that Will Chamberlain should have more scoring titles and better scoring than Michael. It's better. No, it's not. You you had Elgen Baylor running around there averaging like 33 and 15 and he was like the fourth or fifth best player in that era. Will Chamberlain averaged 50 in a year. Jerry West taller than everybody. Jerry West Jerry West career numbers. Hold on. Jerry West put you in a middle school basketball league right now. You'd average 52. Do you know that Jerry Do you know that Jerry West's numbers are the same as LeBron James? That's why he's the logo. The same does that mean? What does that mean? All those guys lived in. What does that mean? I'm trying to tell you. We're talking about LeBron and Jordan. Neither of these guys played in the 60s. Because this is your point. I'm trying to answer your point. Your point was LeBron only led the league in scoring once and Jordan did 10 because it's so much harder to score today and there's so many better scorers. Well, okay. Full stop. In the 1960s, that's the best scoring era. Will Chamberlain should have more scoring crowns and be a better scorer than Jordan? He's not. Jordan averaged more points per game than Chamberlain and he has more scoring crowns than Chamberlain 10 to seven. So it completely negates and refutes your point of oh which era is better at scoring. What does it matter? Wasn't the question I asked you? Jordan has 10 scoring crowns. That was not my question. That's the answer. Okay. Can we both agree that you've answered a question that I didn't ask you? Can we agree with that? Cuz I didn't ask you the better scoring era. I actually. So what does it matter? What does it matter what scoring you scoring about? What does it matter? If I put you on a team with a bunch of people who are better at scoring a basketball than you, and I go play on a team with people who can't score for [ __ ] I should lead the team in scoring more often than you do if I'm playing with crappy scorers and you're not. He wasn't running around with a Kevin Durant, with a Steph Curry, with the all the with a James freaking Harden, like people who are good at putting the ball in the hoop. Michael Jordan is an exceptional scorer. I'm not saying he's not, but to act like just because Michael Jordan led the league in scoring 10 times or whatever it was and LeBron did it once when you're talking about an era that has some of the best scorers. That's fine. He's an exceptional scorer. 23 years. How many if if Michael Jordan if Michael Jordan played basketball in LeBron Jordan in in LeBron's era? How many times would Michael Jordan have led the league? Every year. Every year. How do you figure? How do I figure like 40 points per game? He averaged 40 points per game. Kobe and Jordan would easy 40 per game. Kobe didn't average 40 per game. And he played in LeBron's era. Uh, no, he didn't play in this today era. He played back when the era was still difficult. How much How many points will LeBron average if he played in the '90s when you didn't have to double and you didn't play zone? I don't know. There was a lot. It was just one-on-one the whole time. The pain was 69 260. He can't shoot. The pain. Neither can Jordan. Jordan's a better shooter at every level. No, he's not. He is. He's he's a better mid-range shooter. I will give you that. LeBron James is not a good mid-range shooter, but he's a better. He's not good anywhere other than. He's good everywhere. He's the most all-around basketball player you've ever seen in your lifetime. But he's not. Jordan was much better in the mid-range. Much better. I would argue that I think LeBron, if you know the team was fully around him because he had to pass. And by the way, much better passer than Jordan, much better rebounder than Jordan. If we want to get into that, we look at. Sure. You know what? I'll I'll even say that that is the case. But Jordan, better scorer, better defender, better winner. LeBron could have had those stats, but he, as we said, adapted around his team. He was passing. Yeah. Jordan had 35, five and five. LeBron had 20. He his career averages are like 298 and seven. You've get the extra assists. You get the extra rebounds. His career 27. I think he's dipped to 26. I want to say 27. See, here's the thing. I again with you people. I love how like LeBron LeBron could do anything. He could do whatever he wants. That's what you say about Jordan. That is what you say about Jordan. He could triple doubles. But look, we've seen six different triple double seasons in LeBron's era. Now, four Russell Westbrook triple doubles. Back-to-back Nikola Jokic triple doubles. All I've heard about for all the years leading into Russell Westbrook and and Nikola Jokic was, "Oh, LeBron could he could average triple double if he wanted to. He could, but he did." Russ did. I have a quick question for the audience. Did I audience? Did I mention triple doubles at all? You're talking about triple facts. Did I say the word triple double? You're talking about stats. You are saying he changed the topic with every single person you talked to. I'm tired of this. You're saying he could the same numbers as Jordan. Did you not say that? And and the thing is if you add the assists the points created off those assists. He's right there. It's even 35 and five. 29 and seven. You are creating the same amount of points outside of that. LeBron. So, could Jordan do what LeBron did with longevity? Absolutely not. Do you know Do you know what Jordan was averaging at 37 years old? It's like 20 was like 21, you know, five and like he was on like 419 where scoring was like 98 points per game versus 116 points per game. And his efficiency was terrible. LeBron 20 points per game. You know what LeBron did at 37 years old? He was averaging 299 and seven. Okay. Do you know can 38. So why was it in his MVP his last MVP season at 28 he was only averaging 26 points per game. Cuz he he changes three there was less scoring etc. And and it was harder than the 90s. Definitely. It's definitely like Jordan Jordan had years off and he couldn't do what LeBron did. LeBron could do what Jordan did. Absolutely. Without a doubt. Michael Jordan was the clear GOAT of his era. LeBron James isn't. So, who who is the GOAT then to you in LeBron's era? I would say Kobe Bryant was the best player in the NBA till 2010. LeBron had had higher MVP finishes uh than Kobe starting in 2006. Nash stole one from him. What was that, '06? He was second. Yeah. So, okay. So, so starting from '06, he had higher MVP finishes than Kobe. Um, Steph's unanimous MVP year, he came back and beat him in the finals and he was the best player on either team. Led both teams in statistics in every category, which isn't the first time he did that in the finals in his career. Um, so is it arguable? Sure. But there there was just less talent when Jordan was there uh in his in his era. So high test like feeling specific things. Well, no, I mean like you were saying stats are up now. There's higher higher uh average for team scoring, higher average for uh shots per play, for points per minute. Uh, so skills are set up. Defense is down. There's no handchecking. There's no hand checking, but you can play zone, you can double, you can pull guys by the hair and not get thrown out of a game. I mean, you know, a lot of things happen. I think we need to start looking at some intangibles, right? Like, who would you rather hang out with? Jordan seems like a jerk. You know what I mean? And jerks are losers. That's a loser. LeBron seems like a cool goofball. He's a funny guy. That is winning mentality. I didn't see this going in that direction. You look at their Hollywood career. You give me LeBron and Train Wreck next to Bill Murray all day. He crushes it. He's one of the funniest actors to ever come out of the NBA. Space Jam 2. Space Jam 2. How old were you when you saw Space Jam 2? You saw it, you creep. Why would you go to the theaters and see that? It's a kids movie. That's a kids movie. If you're not a six-year-old kid, then of course it's a bad movie. We were all young when when Space Jam with Jordan came out. That's why we liked it. I liked Bugs Bunny back then. I don't now. Can you name Bill Murray won the game for those guys? It wasn't even Jordan. You know what I mean? He couldn't even beat a bunch of cartoons without Bill Murray. Guys ate at the early stage of of Michael's career, right? Like you had Magic winning titles and MVPs, Bird winning titles and MVPs in the early part just like Kobe and Duncan were eating on LeBron early on, right? Like Kobe was winning MVPs and titles. Uh, Duncan with a stacked team. Kobe's team wasn't stacked. Dude, Pau Gasol, Ron Artest, Lamar Odom. That's a really good team, dude. Pau Gasol made one All-Star appearance in his entire career before he got to LA in year seven. How many All-NBA teams before he got to LA? Zero. And how many with Kobe? Exactly. He got better with Kobe. Then when he left Kobe again, not good. So maybe it was Kobe was the one. You guys talk about what LeBron does for teammates. He's also a power forward in the West. So he's not going to make it over KG. He's not going to make it over Tim Duncan. I mean, Yao Ming had healthy years out there. So, how many All-Star games did Ron Artest play in his career? With Indiana? Probably one. He played one All-Star. How many All-Defensive teams? He played one All-Star. He's one of the best defenders when he played with Kobe. So, when you have Kobe and Artest, that's very similar to Jordan and Pippen. Right. On defense, they're shutting down the wings. How many All-Star games did Lamar Odom play in? I think 15, 16. Zero. How many All-Star games did Derek Fisher play in? Derek Fisher isn't in the conversation. He's a role player. He's a very good role player. Those teams are are elevated now to diminish Kobe Bryant. Not at all. Kobe couldn't win without before Pau Gasol got there. He look at his look at his team. He had Smush Parker as a Brown as a center was 18 and 10 with Memphis as a young man. And what was Chris Bosh? Chris Bosh was before he joined LeBron. He was like 20 22 24 were similar players before they joined. Before they they played very different games. They played very similar players. How's a much better defender? Bosh was LeBron's Chris was soft in the paint. Gasol was Kobe's second option. Those weren't stacked teams the year. If you put LeBron on those Lakers teams, if you take out Kobe, you insert LeBron James, they they three-peat. They win championships. Not even close. Because LeBron is a choke artist when it really matters. I think this is a time where LeBron's longevity, he's almost a victim of his own greatness because you're using arguments from when iPhones were new and then you're using arguments from when Wimy's in the NBA to hurt LeBron's case, right? Okay. The fact that he's been great for this long gives you more to work with, but what he's done in his era is an outlier. LeBron is top 10 in total playoff points scored in the 2000s. He's top 10 in total playoff score playoff points scored in the 2010s and the 2020s. No one else has done that. LeBron is far and away the all-time points leader while being top four in assists. How many points do you think LeBron has created in the history of basketball? How many guys have made a shot because LeBron found them? Yeah. Yeah. Like for him to know when I can jump in, but keep going. Go ahead. Okay. Um, I'm glad you brought that up because I don't want to use his longevity, which is excellent, against him. Like I said, Duncan and Kobe ate at the beginning of of LeBron's watch. Right. Just like the Celtics did in the 80s and the beginning of Jordan's career, right? And then Jokic has eaten at the end of LeBron's career. He's won three MVPs. He won his championship by sweeping LeBron James. Okay. In a series in the West Finals where Anthony Davis averaged 27 and 14 in that series against D'Angelo Russell playing in crucial minutes. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. What were we supposed to do? I'm just I'm just saying. So, but look, if we even take D'Angelo Russell I got Okay. All right. Okay. If we say when LeBron is primed, okay, you would admit that he was primed when he won back-to-back league MVPs, right? And he probably should have won five in a row, but they punished him for the decision, but whatever. But so he was primed in Cleveland when he when he won back-to-back MVPs. So he won 61 62 games one year, 66 games the other. Both number one in the league both years as the league MVP. Okay. He then was eliminated in the playoffs both years by Orlando and then Boston. And Kobe Bryant beat both of those teams. So Kobe's eating Yeah. In LeBron's prime. Then now let's we'll even say 35 and on is not LeBron's prime. So I'm not even going to count Jokic against him. So let's look at when when LeBron in my estimation became the best player in the NBA 2011 and then I think he was till 2018 because in 2018 you had Giannis Antetokounmpo who MVP 1 DY 2 then the next year he was D1 MVP1 and then Jokic started right after that. So, let's say just in his prime, just in LeBron's peak, 2011 to 18, he won three championships on three super teams. Steph Curry also won three championships in that same window. Only he won all three head-to-head against LeBron James. Like I said, no one ever ate when Michael Jordan got primed with one other All-Star. People are getting damn right obese in this era on LeBron's watch. You got all-time greats running around like it's an all-you-can-eat buffet out here. Okay. Okay. It's crazy. Speaking of running around, I want to talk about how LeBron strategically adds impact to every team that he goes to. Right. And all-star players as well. Sure. Right. But there's challenges that come with that because LeBron every team, every time he's changed teams since the decision, they win within the first two years, but they don't always win right away, which tells me two things. Number one, the talent is not so overwhelmingly stacked in LeBron's favor that they can win easily in year one like the Warriors with KD did. But it also tells me LeBron figures things out because when you look at a guy like Michael Jordan, my my man said uh the the way he won in the triangle system with uh Phil Jackson, nothing. Again, I'm not I'm not downplaying his greatness, but that's just a continuity that he had. Kobe won all his championships with Phil. Uh, Steve Kerr, all Steph Curry's championships came with him. Tim Duncan, all his came with Pop. LeBron won with Spoelstra, who is a great coach, but has not won since him. He won with Ty Lue who has done nothing since and I can't really point to much else besides 2016. Um, he won with Frank Vogel who is not a head coach currently. Right. So we talk about LeBron switching teams but there's risks that come with that. And we talk about the Heat years and at the time I was a LeBron hater as a Kobe fan, but I've come to appreciate LeBron because those super teams weren't so super after year one. You look at uh they were they were still in 2014 they were still. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Because you you saying that because of the names, but when when Dwyane what they did when Dwyane Wade's knees went out, he was not the same player. When Chris Bosh had the abdominal strain, he was not the same player. If Chris Bosh was so super, why did he have zero points in game? And then what did he do? What? Like other people like Michael Jordan, like Kobe Bryant, like Steph Curry, like Tim, like all the great players. No, they stay and they have to fight through rebuilds, fight through other guys coming in. And then LeBron doesn't do that. When thing when things slip away from LeBron and LeBron teams, he runs to another ready-made super team. But that also comes with risks because you're playing in a new system with a new coach, new teammates. He literally played with Anthony Davis who was notorious for being injury-prone and then proceeded to get injury-prone. And I still believe the Lakers go back to back in 2021 if Anthony Davis wasn't hurt. But that's that's a side point. Anthony Davis not we talked about his top five. He was phenomenal. I loved the other two years that they lost to the Nuggets though. The two years they lost back-to-back to the Nuggets by four in the West Finals and by five in the first round the following year. AD 27-4 on 52% in the West Finals and then the first round the next year 28-4 on 64%. That was LeBron's second option on that team and he's losing one game total in two series. I mean, you can't expect him to win every single year. The Nuggets were at their peak. You're right. He hasn't won. He's won four times out of 23 years. But he does it on different teams. And we talk about all these different situations he was in. He won in the 2020 uh in 2020 with the Lakers. Lakers were 57 and 0 when they had a lead after the third quarter. That's never been done before. They were 24-3 through the first 27 games. They were on a 60-win pace. They had statement wins against the Clippers and the Bucks before the season was closed. And on top of all that, LeBron James led the league in assists in year 17 because he adapted his game once again. And that's why that's why he can change teams because he also changes his game to fit those teams and no one else does that. The continuity and all the All-Stars the continuity the continuity that Jordan and Kobe and Tim Duncan and Steph Curry had. LeBron never had but he didn't need it because they didn't have the great players LeBron had either. They had tons of great players. What are you talking about? They all LeBron has had more. Do I have to say it again? No, you don't. Because I'll say this 17 All-Stars versus Jordan who has had one guy that made six All-Stars. I don't I don't evaluate players solely on the All-Star game, but if you are ranking their careers, I guarantee you you're not putting Scottie Pippen below Chris Bosh and Kevin Love. Why is that though? What do you mean why is that? Because Scottie Pippen is decorated more and thought of higher because he was on those teams with Michael Jordan. Okay. All right. Well, I'll give you that. But I just think that LeBron's talent, while great, the league has also been great. So, he had to have talent to keep up. And his ability to keep up is predicated on his ability to adapt, evolve, and add to his game, which he undeniably does at every team he goes to. Michael Jordan is only the clear GOAT of his era. Well, there's there's really two reasons. One, because there just wasn't anybody that else that was good enough. And two, it's it's by design. It's a marketing plan that Michael Jordan is almost credited with saving the NBA. The NBA before Michael Jordan, before Magic and Bird, right right around the NBA. Okay, they saved it. He elevated it to a crazy level. Correct. This is because the NBA was a fighting, cigarette smoking, beer drinking league that nobody wanted to put on TV. That wasn't a a marketable product back in those days, right? So, now we have this guy who is almost like uh comparable to a LeBron James in his athleticism who can jump out of the gym and do all these crazy things. So, it it makes perfect sense that David Stern uh commissioner of the NBA, whoever powers that be, let's push this guy and make him be the clear GOAT. Also, you think getting that same. Hold on. No, I said LeBron LeBron gets the benefit of now coming into the NBA that has already been saved. But if it was market the hell out of him. Yeah, they did. And they also but they he was not the only guy. This is my point about Michael Jordan. There's nobody else to market. There's nobody else to market because dominant. He was the clear undisputed GOAT isn't. And there are hundreds of more NBA players at the time like how today in today's NBA there's a Steph Curry, there's a James Harden, there's an Anthony Davis. Like you keep bringing them up. There's all of these different players now who are marketable and who can be pushed to be the face. Maybe better than LeBron or like Steph Curry maybe had a better run than LeBron in LeBron's peak like I'm saying that there is no guy. Steph Curry doesn't lead the NBA in all-time. Maybe that guy in Jordan's era you guys just diminish everything that Jordan played against in in the first in his first NBA championship that he won in '91. He beat the LA Lakers with Magic. Who are not the Showtime Lakers anymore. Fine. They're not the Showtime Lakers anymore. Kareem was not on that team wasn't there on the team. But guess who was? That was in June of 91. Let me Can I Can I answer? Oh, you you've been talking a lot. That was in June of 91. Correct. I'm trying to to talk about championship was in June of 91. Correct. November of the team. Yeah, I know. November of 91. Do you know what Magic Johnson sat down at a little table like this and said to the world? Yes, you do. So, this is my point. Magic Johnson was not Magic Johnson in '91 when he won that championship. '92. Let's go to. Hold on. Hold on. Let me tell you what Magic Johnson was when when they when they played Michael. That's what he was. Well, goodness gracious because good goodness gracious because first of all, Magic Johnson, shout out to you, Magic, who's still thriving now, like 30 years later. He did whatever he had to do. Salute. But secondly, in that year, Magic was All-NBA 1, MVP 2, runner-up and MVP to Michael Jordan that year. And you had James Worthy. Worthy. Did you ever hear of him? I did. He was 29 years old. He's a top 50 all-time player. And he was an All-Star that year, too. Better than Michael Jordan. So Jordan beat that team first. Then he beat the second his second chip against the Trailblazers. He beat Clyde Drexler who was all. Hold on. He was nobody. He was All-NBA 1. And Drexler. Not Clyde Drexler. I'm talking about the other 11 guys. Nobody. Come on. Then the next year the Phoenix team's Charles Barkley MVP won All-NBA. The first good team that we've named so far. All-NBA 1. Then he comes back and he plays the Seattle SuperSonics. A dude named the Glove with two All-NBA second team designations in Kemp and Payton. Payton Defensive Player of the Year that year. They won 64 games that year. Then the next year, two more 60-win games in 90 60-win teams in '97 and '98 with MVP Karl Malone runner-up then to Michael Jordan and then MVP the following year with that AND A TOP 10 ALL-TIME POINT. 60 WIN and you guys just dismiss all of this competition, all these elite all-time players. So, the last time that I sat down here, you told me that when Michael Jordan was running through the East, the East was better and the East was more competitive. So, now you're trying to tell me about these Western Conference teams that were so good and they had all these wins playing against the weak ass Western Conference in the '90s. Do you want me to Do you want me to reaffirm Jordan played 27 50-win teams out of his 37? You want me to You're conflicting yourself. No, I'm just saying Jordan played better teams in his in his conference finals run to get out. And then you guys say he played by far better competition in the finals. It wasn't by far better competition. I'm saying Jordan played insanely good competition, too. The only difference is they didn't win because Jordan didn't let them win, whereas all of these teams are winning against LeBron James. That's why LeBron isn't the undisputed GOAT of his era. I think I think it what makes him the undisputed GOAT of his era is him being 40 years old still doing things that prime 25-year-old men who get paid hundreds of millions of dollars can't do. Not only did LeBron James not surpass Michael Jordan as the GOAT, he didn't even get close. Didn't even get close is crazy. We're all up here for hours talking about the fantastic accolades. We're going to talk about single person accolades, most All-NBA selections, most All-Star selections, most points in NBA history. Let's just say we have a player in a vacuum. Let's say he played for 20 years. That player has more made threes than Reggie Miller. He has more steals than the Glove. He has more rebounds than Charles Barkley. Like, what are we talking about here? Yes, he played forever. I guess you have to be on the court to accumulate these stats. Cuz he also has more turnovers than anybody else ever. More missed shots than anybody else ever. More Finals games lost than anybody else ever. More Finals games lost. What about 33 losses? Wow. He has more losses than Jerry West. 33 losses. 22 and 33. And see, that's what I really want to focus in on because the GOAT, the GOAT, like it encompasses more than just stats and how long you play. It's about the moments. It's about those fleeting opportunities fades over white guys from middle Europe that like couldn't jump either. It's about killing Craig and like that's your biggest career moment. It's about answering the challenge, rising to the. The challenge of winning, my friend. The challenge of winning. You want to know why LeBron James didn't get close? Because of four and six. And do you want to know why he's not? Do you want to know why he's four and six? They're trying to hear the members of the Pantheon that Michael Jordan was lording over in the 90s. Cuz I can tell you the members of the NBA basketball Pantheon that LeBron played up against. And not just the ones we've mentioned here. We've talked about now we got Kobe that we had Tim Duncan mentioned a number of times here. Kevin Durant, I feel like his name has not come up enough. That's one of the greatest players of all time. Uh, Anthony Davis, his somebody he played against and his teammate Harden, Westbrook, Chris Paul, like these are contemporaries of these guys. I honestly I cannot name those person that is in the Pantheon that challenged my first because you were born in like '98. So that's first and for you didn't see any of them. That's why but secondly, they did. I know that they had no wait a second. But wait a second. Secondly, the reason why these players today's their legacies are elevated is because they built their resumes by beating LeBron James. None of the guys in the 90s were capable of doing that against Michael Jordan. Let's just say that you can't use the cudgel of 6 and 0 in this argument. Who are these players that Michael Jordan was, you know, keeping his hand on their forehead. We just talked about Charles. If Charles Barkley had championships, he would be a top 12 to 15. Hold on. If Karl Malone, the third all-time leading scorer in NBA history, 25 and 10 career averages in 19 years, two MVP awards, if he had two championships, he would be a top 12 player, maybe top 10. He's not because Jordan that he couldn't. We never got to play Hakeem Olajuwon in the finals cuz Oh, we burnt the tapes on when he got dunked on by Shaq two years in a row in '95 and like '96 or. Well, what what happened when Kobe and LeBron play in the finals? Oh, right. They never did because LeBron show about the other year when Kobe didn't make it or whatever. You know, we can play this game a lot. But he's the better player because he's a winner. When you talk about Michael Jordan, what are like like real quick one sentence, why is he the GOAT? Because he had the greatest peak, he did the most with the least, and he won more championships in peak with less than anybody ever. That's that's pretty much why I was. Okay, I'm a baseball fan. Okay. I think Shohei Ohtani is the greatest player of all time and he doesn't always have the accolades to match up with other guys. Baseball's hard to comp to basketball. My point though, my point is that ability 11, there's five in basketball. You play both ways. They're not comparable sports, but I'm just saying Shohei's ability to pitch, to hit, to steal bases. It makes him a special special figure that transcends the norms of the game. LeBron's the same thing. LeBron puts the ball in the basket. You talked about his longevity like he's just hanging around, but he was also the youngest to every benchmark, too. He was the youngest to a thousand, 5,000, 10,000 women. He came in at 18 though. Yeah. Because he was great at George started at 21. And not only did he come in, it's a different time though. Not only did he come in at 18, he came in at 18 with serious expectations placed on him by the media. He was literally called the chosen one. And he lived up to all of those. He's playing with his child. The chosen one on his back. He's playing with his child. He's playing with himself the GOAT since 2016. He calls himself the king and the prince is on the court with him. He puts this expectation on his own back. Literally. Okay, I can give you that. Sometimes LeBron can be a little bit cringe, but overall I have to say for him to play this long, to be this effective with this many different iterations of the way the game is played with different players and personnel, he's cooked people's fathers and sons and played with his son, right? Technology was way different when he came in. Sports medicine was way different when he came in and he's still effective. If LeBron was a role player just hanging out in the corner, we wouldn't really point to the longevity the same way. But he's effective. He continues adding layers to his game. He's playing with Luka Dončić, one of the highest usage players in history. And LeBron as a great teammate, adapted to that. He's playing as a third option. He's playing off-ball. He's getting more assisted buckets than he ever has. He's cutting more. He's using transition. I just think he's done too many things great to where we can discount that as just longevity. And yet there are many other guys in NBA history that have won more with less and have been able to answer the bell in those elite moments, those clutch time moments, the ones where LeBron James has failed in over and over again. And that's why he has the most game-winning shots in the world. I'm glad you mentioned that. Let's talk. We can talk about it because again, it's about moments. That's what I'm trying to tell you. like coming back from a 3-1 moments and LeBron James like scoring 29 out of 30 against LeBron James is 22 and 33 in the NBA Finals. That's 55 games he's played in. Sure. Now look, you hear a lot about clutch stats in the NBA. The NBA defines clutch moments as a game in the final five minutes within five points either way. No, I'm going to dial it down to an even clutcher time of the of the game. The final two minutes of a game within a one-score game. So in those ultra clutch moments, LeBron James played in 21 of them in his 55 finals appearances. 21 times, nearly half the time he's in these clutch moments. So all the things you guys have talked about before about how, oh, his teams weren't as good, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't matter because in the last two minutes of the game, he's in a one-possession game. So just be great, LeBron. That's all you have to do. It's hard to be great. Eight of 29 shooting in those in those moments. That's 27% shooting. And in those 21 games, his teams 10 and 11 as a result of his failures and chokes. And that's the difference right there. That's the hold on. That's the difference between four and six and six and four or seven and three. Those are the moments in which they would enable you guys to sit up here in front of me and say it's close, but it's not because he failed over and over again. And as a result, he's a loser. He's four and six and losers don't get to be close to the GOAT. So, I have I have a quick question for you because I have a feeling that you're going to say something that's going to silence this room. Okay. So, you've got MJ 1. Correct? Where do you have LeBron in that order? I I have a sneaky feeling it's not two. It certainly isn't two. I'll just I'll just leave it at this. It's not Mount Rushmore. So, okay. So, who's So, who's on your Mount Rushmore? I'm glad you asked because on my Mount Rushmore, I have the best of the best two-way players that exhibited elite playing statuses on both sides who won very either challenging rings or the resume is just even better than them. So, the and the guys I'm talking about is Jordan, Kobe, and Duncan. And then the fourth guy who didn't win the challenging rings just like LeBron didn't, but he won so much more than LeBron. And his resume is the best resume actually. Like people talk about LeBron's resume. It's not even the best resume. The best totality of a resume is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He's been to 10 finals, same as LeBron. He's won six, two more than LeBron. He has six He has six league MVPs, two more than LeBron. And he is top three in three standard box metrics. That being points, rebounds, and blocks, better stats than LeBron. So, this this is great. But I'm just going to attack because you said he's not even on Mount Rush. We're not even not even top four. I want everyone to understand the audience. He said LeBron is five or worse. This is Skip Bayless level. Not even It's not even five, I'll tell you that. Yeah. But go ahead. Go ahead. So, let's attack one of those players, Tim Duncan. We're talking about LeBron gets all this help this and that. Do you know how much help Tim Duncan had? Well, let's talk about it. He had Tony Parker. He had Manu Ginobili. He had arguably the greatest coach of all time. He had an incredible general manager, incredible front office that I mean to get not one but two incredible draft and stash players. And he had all this help but all and and all of a sudden, you know, oh, he's better than LeBron, but he had all this. Did you know that there are three players in NBA history that have won multiple championships without a top 75 player? Three players. That's it. Do you know who they are? Uh, I'm assuming MJ's in that. No. Who Who are the? Because Pippen is a top 75 Pippen top 50. Great point. So yes, there are three players. That would be Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, and Steph Curry. That's it. So that's all that that all the help Tim Duncan got is he's won multiple championships without a top 75 player. But that's and the thing is that's yes he didn't have a top 75 player. He had but LeBron has top-line players though. Co Tim Duncan also had great depth. I mean, who was hitting all the big shots or them? Robert Horry was hitting incredible shots. Well, not playing with the Lakers before Duncan was winning two two of his rings, but you know, but it's still it's still that's that's But LeBron had good good depth, too. Yeah. Am Look at that. LA. Can you name Mario Chalmers? Name me some players on that 2020 team uh that that LeBron won outside of top five league-wide player Anthony Davis that year. Can you name me some of the other ones? There was Rondo. Yes. There was JaVale McGee. Dwight Howard. Caruso. Caruso. Caruso was very good back then. He's better now. Um, but regardless to not even have him on the top team is what I'm saying. Yes, and that's and that was his way he got that was when he was 36 years old. Have him top four because he has failed time and time again when it matters most and those are the moments that really define different non differentiate you because like I say again I keep bringing them up. Karl Malone top three all-time in NBA scoring 25 and 10. So, because he's terrible, you then take him down several notches all-time. He's not he's not even top 20 for most people. And I probably agree with that because he failed when it mattered most, just like LeBron James. The only difference is Karl Malone stayed on his team through most of his career. He ring-chased at the end at 40. But LeBron started ring-chasing at 26, stacking the decks and stealing these cheap rings. And he still fails more than not. The 3-1 comeback is a cheap ring. Cheap ring. How cheap. How in the world? Cheap ring saved by the bell, my friend. I respect it. This isn't really going to be much of a debate. I just have three quick questions for you. I'm done. Okay. Okay. So, LeBron James won the championship in 2016. Do you know what month that was? Well, 2016 would be June. It was June 2016. Okay. Do you remember? Can you say what he said? I want to hear it. Can Can I say it real quick? What? Cleveland, this is for you. Okay, great. Sorry, I had to say that. So, the Last Dance, the the Last Dance documentary that we all watched when the world shut down that we all know and love, right? Came out in 2020. Do you know when that started production? Yeah, it aired on 2020. Yeah, but it started producing a couple months after LeBron James came back from a 3-1 deficit. So, you're saying that was a great documentary though, wasn't it? It was an exceptional documentary. But here's But here's my point. You're saying that LeBron James you're saying that you said you said he's not near Mount Rushmore. Yeah. I'm gonna assume by your tone that he's not even top 10, which is insane. He's he's he's top 10 for now. Yes. I've gone for now. For now. Yeah. This is disgusting. Okay. But your your your claim is that LeBron James has never come close to being the GOAT. Correct. But the person who you think is the GOAT had to start producing a documentary about the last dance after LeBron James passed him to be the GOAT by coming back from 31. Something that your GOAT's never done. So, all I'm saying is if I were And wait, you're saying LeBron became the GOAT in 2016? Is that what you're saying? Yes. What I'm saying is here's the thing. Here's the thing. Here's the thing, right? If I as a secure man were secure in my status as the greatest of all time, right? And I watched someone do something that I'd never done. If I was really secure in my status as the greatest basketball player that ever lived, I wouldn't have to go find a production team to produce a documentary about my my last in the NBA. Let me follow that. So, it's not nobody. Michael Jordan has never once ever said that he was the greatest player of all time. LeBron James has chosen one tattooed on himself. He calls himself the king. He calls himself the GOAT every chance he gets. He showed up to a party once that he threw himself with two actual live goats. All right. And you're telling me that Michael Jordan's the one that's insecure in his status as. So, let me ask you a question. Me do think the gentleman pretends too much. As an athlete or as any to aspire to any level of greatness. Don't you have to have a little bit of self? I think they're great. Okay. So, what's wrong with LeBron James thinking he's going out of their way to say LeBron James goes out of his way over? Of course he does. Did LeBron James call himself the chosen one? Yeah, he tattooed it on his back. But did he call himself that? I don't know if the Sports Illustrated he didn't call himself that. So, if you're calling the chosen one the chosen one, he did call himself the king. He is the king. He calls himself the GOAT. He's both of those things. He's neither. I call myself Dwayne Marcus. It's on my birth certificate. This is who I am. If I am these things, I'm going to call myself these things. LeBron James has failed too much in the most important moments of his career to be considered the GOAT. There are many people that have answered the the challenge and the bell more closely to Michael Jordan, way more closely than LeBron James. If there were more aliens from whatever planet Victor Wembanyama came from and they came down here right now tomorrow and said, "Send us the greatest basketball player you've ever seen for the fate of the universe." They wouldn't send Andre Iguodala. They wouldn't send Michael Jordan. They would send LeBron, Raymon, and James. But wait a second. LeBron James couldn't even beat his peers in the NBA. You think he can beat aliens for the fate of human existence? He didn't need Bill Murray to beat HE DIDN'T NEED BILL MURRAY TO BEAT THE aliens for human existence. That's all I'm saying. That's a wrap for us, but the debate is not over. Basketball on Threads. Get into it.