Transcription
Ned. Ned, how are you doing?
>> I'm doing okay. How's the How's the gain? Too high? Too low?
>> Uh, you're great, my friend. What's on your mind?
>> Well, I'll tell you what. Uh, after listening to all this stuff, you can have me on for an hour and a half and I tell you a bunch of details about masonry and how it relates to um the church and the concepts and principles.
>> You got your Masonic hat on, don't you, Ned?
>> That's because I am. a faithful Mason and a member of the church.
>> Do they wear that those hats in the the temple or do you call them the lodge or is it both?
>> The only one that's allowed to wear a hat in the lodge is the master when he's serving in that position.
>> Do you wear any kind of hat?
>> No, you you wear I think it's a um old bowler hat, but uh kind of a top hat type of thing.
>> Okay. This one's based on the three basic principles of masonry, which is faith, hope, and charity. For our faith may be lost in sight, and our hope end in fruition, but charity extends beyond the grave through the boundless realms of eternity.
>> Yeah. Faith, hope, and charity. And the greatest of them all is charity. Right.
>> Yeah. That's right. That's right.
>> It sounds like you're trying to Christianize uh masonry, Ned. I I I think that it's based on it because back in the days in England, it was the the Church of England and Catholicism and Protestantism and that was the true religion.
>> So folks may not know this in the chat. Uh I don't know if you're currently with Bear. Are you currently with them?
>> No, I'm not currently with them, but uh I was in the past. I know Greg Kernney well. We haven't talked in a while, but you and I work together on fair.
>> Yep.
>> And u
>> I I think what fair wants to do and the reason I'm not active with him anymore is they want to promote the institutional church as be the primary focus in all things. And whatever they says the uh handbook of instruction for all intents and purposes is official doctrine. You disagree with that?
>> Oh, uh I uh I don't recall.
>> You don't think the church should be the primary focus in all fields of endeavor?
>> Well, I think I got something for you that you might think that's uh appropriate. You you tell me if this goes with it.
>> Hey Ned, I can't have you playing music and we'll get we'll get an issue there. So, please turn that off. I I want to ask you
>> it's been enough having you on the show at all.
>> Yeah. I want to ask you a question. So I want to pin you down for a moment and and I want you to state what your perspective and I I can't have you go on for 20 minutes. So just clearly do you believe that Joseph Smith got revelation from God fixing a corrupted form of the endowment known as the Masonic rituals. and that what Mormonism ended up with in the endowment is what God wanted us to have there uh with all of that Masonic ritual in it.
>> I don't know. What I do know is that he used it as an adaptation for doctrine principles and covenants
>> just like just like he had Emma Smith go out and find Christian songs to use in the church.
>> Hold on. You're saying that he used it as an adaptation, but what he said is he told Wilfr Woodruff and others, I'm sorry, Hebrew C. Kimble and others, he told them that masonry is a degenerative form of the priesthood and that he was fixing it and restoring it, not that he was utilizing thing.
>> That's what he believed. That's what a lot of the early brethren of the church believed and wasn't thorough.
>> Uh so so then the endowment has untrue things in it.
>> No, the the principles and the doctrines and the covenants are true. How they're represented and how they're uh used as a symbolic teaching method. That's what's different. So
>> we should go ahead and shake someone's hand.
>> So penalties. Yeah. Yeah. But penalties of killing yourself if you reveal the things while uh well masonry um may not have been the God-given source for it. God wanted body harming gestures to be done and for us to make commitments to keep those promises lest we harm ourselves. Uh, and and Joseph just simply used masonry to convey those things because it had it too.
>> No, I don't think that's a principle at all. I think that the principle is if I give you my word, if I give God my word, I would rather die a horrible death than break my word. That's the principle of masonry. That's also the principle in the temple.
>> Yeah. And also the executions or the penalties that were used back in masonry are such that your body would no longer be whole. And it was taught by the religion back then if your body wasn't whole you could never be resurrected.
>> I'm going to ask you one more thing and then RFM if you got anything you can ask.
>> Go ahead. My last question is, don't you sense, Ned, that you come to every problematic issue in Mormonism, including this one, and it's only because things didn't unfold the way we expected them to, that you now have to create a new reconciliation for the thing that didn't turn out to be the way it was claimed to be. And I think it depends on how you view the situation. I see the institutional church as separate from the gospel of Jesus Christ.
>> That's a convenience you've used.
>> I don't think it's a convenience at all. That's my reality.
>> It's a convenience that you've used when the church didn't add up. If it would have just showed up adding up to all the things it told us it was, we wouldn't need any of these workarounds. We only come up with workaround when we're disappointed that it's not what we thought it was going to be.
>> Well, as long as you put your trust in the everliving God because he's the one that's going to decide where you are in eternity.
>> Those thought stopping techniques, they work beautifully, Ned. That all you have to do is
>> Isn't that the truth though?
>> So, you don't need Mormonism.
>> Say again.
>> You don't need Mormonism. You just need faith in God then. Is that We've never met before, right? I'm just trying to figure out what you believe, Ned. Well, I I believe that God is just and perfectly merciful and whatever he decides will be perfect in eternity and whatever that is is fine with me.
>> So, you don't need Mormonism according to Ned Scarsbbrick.
>> Oh, no. No. you whatever level of heaven or that
>> you don't need Mormonism to be exalted in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom according to Nars correct
>> wasn't it Swedenborg who came up with the idea the three degrees of heaven
>> it was it was another another coincidence
>> but still you don't need Mormonism you can be exalted without Mormonism correct Ned
>> I think that's possible sure especially people who are born before eight years old
>> no no No, no, no. Forget about it. You don't need Mormonism, Ned.
>> I don't need Mormonism to be exalted. Is that a true statement?
>> Uh, I think that's true. Yeah. And I'm going to get in trouble with that. I'm gonna start trying to corner. You know that. I want you to get in trouble. Are you You're an active member then, Ned?
>> Yes, I I do. I go
>> Okay.
>> retired from the United States Navy and uh I've served in the temple as a temple ordinance worker. And so I think the principles,
>> the covenants uh that we make are good. And if we live and abide by them and make them who we are and we have the faith in God that that um Mach
>> Shadrach, Meshach, and Tibeted we go.
>> Whose name? Sounds like a an Iraqi used car salesman, right?
>> I don't
>> I guess so.
>> I guess so. But I'm also understanding that I'm also understanding that you don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet.
>> No, I think you do. I received a witness from the spirit that the Lord told Joseph Smith to bring forth the Book of Mormon.
>> Okay. But I'm confused. I'm confused because you said he was mistaken about where he got the Temple Endowment. He was mistaken about masonry.
>> No, I don't think he was mistaken. I think he used it as a tool. So you think masonry does go back to Solomon's temple then?
>> Oh, of course not.
>> Well, that's what Joseph Smith said.
>> Well, and he was wrong about that.
>> So, you don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?
>> No, I don't. I I think that's a a false dichotomy.
>> What else might he What else was he mistaken about, Ned?
>> Oh, a lot of things.
>> Like plural marriage.
>> Wasn't a good idea. Wasn't a good idea.
>> Was it from God? didn't uh well he had a conversation with Bill Marx just before two weeks before he died.
>> Why are we Bill Marks when everywhere is William Marks? Why why do you do that?
>> I like Bill rather than William.
>> I got you.
>> So that's you said look I've been deceived
>> anytime everybody who's practicing it. You got to stop.
>> I love you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet even though he got deceived about something like plural marriage. He got deceived thinking it was from God and he was wrong.
>> That's so That's so messed up.
>> People make mistakes. That was a serious one. He was
>> Yeah, but prophets can't. Otherwise, they're not prophets, Ned. Right.
>> I don't How do you tell whether
>> Well, well, look about Moses and and the and the water from the rock. He was going to do it. He did it. No, God is
>> Ned. Ned, defending it the way you are.
>> Ned, the way you're defending it the way you are is to bring something else up. I want you to just address the questions. How do you tell the difference? RFM just pinned you down and got you to say that you you agree that there are with us that there are lots of things about Joseph Smith's behavior and life and actions that didn't come from God
>> and other things and other things you think did.
>> And yet, how how do how do you discern which is which? And how did you get it right? And all the saints in the past and the prophets themselves.
>> Okay. Do I'm gonna ask you a question. Do you believe in the radio waves?
>> I don't know how it is that you think that you're smarter than Joseph Smith as a faith. That's what that's what blows me away.
>> I don't.
>> You think you're smarter than Joseph Smith.
>> Do you believe in radio waves?
>> Ned, how do you know which teachings come from God?
>> That's the point. How do you tell? How do you know the
>> witness of the only one that's true and that's the Holy Ghost?
>> How do you witnesses?
>> Yeah.
>> Ned, how do you know the radio waves are false?
>> Ned, forget radio waves.
>> Ned, how do you know that polygamy practiced by Joseph Smith was wrong, but Heers C. Kimble didn't know?
>> I don't know. I wasn't born back then. I didn't talk to HCV.
>> It's a convenient It's a convenient leap of perspective that you've taken in order to resolve this for you which the saints prior to you had no benefit of doing such and just believed and did Mormonism in this corrupted way.
>> You could only do what you understand at the time.
>> I think
>> learn and grow and change.
>> Wow. True.
>> You could make Mormonism true out of anything, couldn't you?
>> No.
>> No. That doesn't apply to Joseph Smith saying that this uh it came from masonry. Either he was right or he was wrong. You're saying he was wrong, which means that you're you know more than Joseph Smith did, at least on this issue. Correct.
>> No, I don't believe that. Well, if he said it came from masonry and you're saying it didn't and that Joseph Smith was wrong, all of what you've already said,
>> you must mean that you are smarter. You know more than Joseph Smith does on this issue, right?
>> No, I'm saying the teaching method came from masonry, not the not the covenants, not the principles.
>> We're talking apples. You're going you're trying to get as hard as you can to get to the oranges. I I know.
>> No, no. I I like oranges.
>> Well, I do too, but we're talking about apples is the problem.
>> How How are you able to know polygamy is not from God? But Joseph Smith didn't.
>> He finally found out he was deceived. And then after he found out he was deceived,
>> who deceived him?
>> Two weeks later before, if he had not have been killed at Carthage, that would have been the end of polygamy.
>> Right. Right. In that alternate reality. But Ned, who deceived him? Who the hell deceived Joseph Smith about polygamy being a good idea if it wasn't God?
>> The devil.
>> So Joseph Smith couldn't tell the difference between a revelation from God and a revelation from the devil in spite of the fact he said he could.
>> Man, that's not leading the church astray. The church just could not ever ever be led astray. It's
>> I told you, Bill. I told you,
>> Ned. And I appreciate it. We're going to move on to other folks, but I really appreciate you helping us prove our point. Thank you.
>> Hey, Ned. You're a good sport. I appreciate you coming on the show. I've never met you before, but I'm actually kind of impressed.
>> Yeah. Have a great
>> mildly frustrated
>> as you were, gentlemen. Byebye.
>> Thank you so much.
>> At ease.
>> A Mormon can get themsself out of any box.
>> We got to clip this baby.
>> It's not quite a short. It's kind of a long short or a short long, but you got to clip this baby. That was great that Ned showed up. I think I've never met him, but I think that I remember hearing Geez, 10 years ago, I should have told him when he was here, maybe still watch it. Uh he would uh do this thing for Fair Mormon or I think it was for Fair and he would like play the the hymn from the Navy or I I don't remember the name of it, but I think I would have at the time because I listened to several of those and I thought they were interesting.
>> There are no Radio Free Mormon, that's for sure.
>> Well, no, thank God for that.