Transcription
It seems like St. Petersburg and Moscow are completely unconcerned about the war, and Kyiv is not like that. This asymmetry is precisely what constitutes the perpetrator and the victim. Perpetrators, after all, do not realize they are perpetrating. Even though they are domestically located, people go out with their families and go on dates even during wartime. If you look closely, there are very few young men. Goods that parody that war are being produced in large quantities. [Music] "We are bringing the war to Russia." [Music] "Look at how many Russians I've killed!" Everyone is getting excited about that. They are likely conducting Russian air raids with political objectives. If we don't all embrace and share the images and rejoice, we will be swept away somewhere. It's the same with Corona. [Music] [Music] There are times when bombers fly overhead, and times when infectious diseases come. There might be unrequited love, or other troubles. Among those troubles, it probably becomes just one part of everything, or rather, if you don't push it into your mind like that, [Music] [Music] you can't live. Hello everyone. I am Groiwalina of Fugge Harujyu Pu. This time's topic is "War and Peace in the 21st Century." I would like to introduce our two guests. Our first guest is Mr. Aju, a philosopher and critic. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. And our second guest is Mr. Yu Koizumi, an associate professor at the University of Tokyo's Advanced Science and Technology Research Organization and a military expert. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Mr. Aju, as many of you may know, published "Peace and Folly" at the end of last year. This is a substantial work of 500 pages. It is a collection of essays on peace concerning Ukraine, Yugoslavia, and China-Vietnam. This is the first time in four years, since 2022, that the two of you have had a discussion. We invited Mr. Koizumi to speak with us in April, prompted by his visit to Ukraine. We welcome both of you. Thank you. Both Mr. Aju and Mr. Koizumi visited Ukraine before the war began. Mr. Aju visited in the fall of 2023, and Mr. Koizumi visited this spring. You both witnessed firsthand the Ukraine that is currently at war. As you all know, the Russia-Ukraine war has been ongoing for four years. It is estimated that the total number of casualties on both sides exceeds 2 million. Today, we would like to hear from both of you, based on your direct experiences, about this "Peace and Folly," and about war and peace. First of all, the two of you... What's wrong? You should relax a bit. [Laughter] Yes, it's been a while since I've seen Mr. Aju, so I'm a bit nervous. Even though we're talking about war, let's try to relax a bit. Yes. Regarding "Peace and Folly," when you read it, it begins with descriptions of towns, and Mr. Aju talks about whether these towns are in a state of war. We would like to hear from both of you about the routes you took and the scenes you witnessed. Mr. Aju, you went to Ukraine. Currently, and I believe it was the same in 2023, it's not possible to go directly to Ukraine from Russia. So, I went via Poland, entered Lviv by bus, and then took a train from Lviv to Kyiv. I believe it took about six hours. I wrote in this book as a tourist, so to speak, with quotation marks. Of course, I went with the intention of reporting, but I didn't have any special accreditation or qualifications. I simply went to Ukraine from Poland with my passport. Therefore, my impressions are those of an amateur, both good and bad. Lviv and Kyiv are quite different. Lviv is a city in western Ukraine, so even though the war is happening in the east, the sense of it is probably quite weak. The atmosphere in the city is quite bright. And Lviv is probably a very beautiful city for Ukrainians. I think Ukrainians come here. In the central square of Lviv, there are tourist trains, small buses shaped like trains. They are like the ones you see in amusement parks or for children in Japan. They were running quite full, and many people were taking commemorative photos with their children. The city was very bright. I was very surprised by this, and at the same time, I realized that, of course, daily life continues even in wartime. People go out with their families and go on dates on holidays. When I went to a shopping mall, there were Hollywood movies playing, and there were quite a few people there. However, if you look closely, there are very few young men. [Cough] Hmm. Ah, I see. For example, it's clearly visible in such places. But if you just glance at it, take a single photo, and show it to someone in Japan, they probably wouldn't notice. I see. Hmm. Hmm. That's how I thought, "So this is what war is like," and I was a bit discouraged. When it's actually happening, it's different, isn't it? From the moment the train arrived, there was a sense of tension. Walking through the city center, there were barricades, and when I pointed my camera, I was told to stop in a loud voice. [Cough] Hmm. And perhaps it was my own sense of intrusion, but even in restaurants and shops, although they were open during the day, I didn't feel the brightness of Lviv. I see. This was in 2023. How was it when you visited in 2023? Yes, I only went to Kyiv during the wartime in Ukraine, so I can't compare it with other cities. What surprised me was that it was surprisingly not that different from before. Of course, there are various wartime scenes that you saw, and there are tense places, but for example, there are no scenes like people wearing patched clothes and helmets, which we associate with wartime. People are doing things normally, and it feels like they are trying to maintain their daily lives somehow. My case was that I drove to a town right on the Polish-Ukrainian border and then took an overnight train. So, I gradually went closer to Ukraine from the west, and then finally entered Ukraine. I imagined the scenery gradually changing to look more like a war zone, but of course, it didn't change. It was just a continuous forest in Eastern Europe, with the train rattling along. And when I arrived... Well, it's true that there were fewer men, and military posters were plastered everywhere. And yes, there were barricades here and there. I think when you were there, they were probably just placed around normally. When I was there, they were often moved to the roadside or hidden in the woods where they couldn't be seen. But I really felt that the Russian army had come this far. I think the difference between Lviv and Kyiv might be due to whether the Russian army had actually come there. After all, the Russian army had entered Kyiv once, almost reaching the city. I think there must have been a difference in the sense of tension. In 2023, there were quite a few buildings destroyed by missiles. [Cough] Ah, I had the real feeling that this place had actually been attacked. However, as you mentioned, the citizens were earnestly trying to regain their daily lives. I also felt that sense of civic resilience. I wrote about this in my book: a large number of goods that parody the war are being produced. Ah. For example, in my book, I introduce a T-shirt that likens HIMARS to a metal band. On the back, it says "National Tour" with city names and "2022 Tour" or something like that. This is just one example. In Japan, goods that make light of war are often considered disrespectful and are not readily accepted. However, in Ukraine, such things are being produced in large quantities. Another thing that surprised me, which I also wrote about in my book, is the air raid siren. When entering Ukraine, you are required to install an air raid siren app. When the app goes off, you are initially very surprised. [Cough] It's coming. And the official text says that when the app sounds, you must evacuate to the nearest bunker or air-raid shelter. The first time I heard it was in Lviv. I was eating a sandwich or something at a cafe when it started. Naturally, I stood up, thinking I had to leave. But everyone was still calmly drinking coffee and eating sandwiches. I wondered what was going on. Even when I went outside the shop, everyone was walking around normally. [Sniffle] Hmm. Hmm. So what was that? But it seemed like no one was going to a bunker, so I just walked around. When I returned and asked someone at the hotel, I was told that there are several types of air raid alerts. When the air raid alert sounds, everyone checks on Telegram or other social media to see how dangerous it is. I see. And since it was determined that this was not a major threat to Lviv at that time, no one reacted. I see. So, the response to air raid sirens has become more sophisticated. It's like Japan's earthquake early warning system. "Oh, it's a magnitude 3 earthquake." Yes, it's very similar to Japan's earthquake early warning system. And similarly, although it sounded many times during my stay, even in Kyiv, some people evacuated, but many people ignored it and walked around the city. I think it's quite different from what is reported in Japan, where people always go to the subway and spend the day in anxiety when the alarm sounds. [Cough] You mentioned the word "disrespectful" earlier. From a Japanese perspective, the distance from war... What kind of feeling is that? Is it because it has become a part of daily life? Or is it perhaps due to the national character and historical background? I think it was probably the same in Japan. When war breaks out, war becomes daily life. So, people will try to find enjoyment in their daily lives, or even when an alarm sounds, they will try to figure out if it's a real threat or not. The citizens will also discern this. So, I imagine similar things happened in Japan. Hmm. Hmm. May I take a look? [Sniffle] Regarding the air raid sirens in the latter half, for example, in Futaro Yamada's diary from the war, he writes about incredibly absurd things. He says that he was supposed to have a math exam that he really disliked today, but thanks to the air raid, the exam was canceled, and he was happy about it in his boarding house, but the landlady scolded him. There are incredibly disrespectful stories like that. [Cough] Hmm. But perhaps, to live as a human being, like with Corona, there are times when bombers fly overhead, and times when infectious diseases come. There are also math exams you dislike, and perhaps unrequited love. Among those troubles, it probably becomes just one part of everything, or rather, if you don't push it into your mind like that, there might be a limit to the capacity of the human brain. That's one point. Another point is that you visited in 2023, didn't you? And after that, Russia succeeded in mass-producing drones. The CSIS in the US has created a chart tracking the number of air raids in Ukraine, and it shows that there weren't that many major air raids in 2023 and 2024. I see. Hmm. Cruise missiles and ballistic missiles take time to produce, so they don't fly that often. As of 2026, they can apparently produce about 8,000 kamikaze drones per month. So, they can conduct 10 air raids per month with 800 kamikaze drones each time. That means 800 drones fly every three days. Mixed with these are cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, and hypersonic missiles. So, the tension regarding air raid sirens has changed. Ah, I suppose so. I see. But it's natural for ordinary people to try to figure out which ones are not dangerous. During my stay, there were frequent air raid sirens, but people in Ukraine would say, "This is okay." Another thing that was a bit scary was that when the bombers fly overhead and launch high-speed missiles, they tell you to go to the bunker, but it's useless, so just sit here. What if it happens to hit here? But they say, "It is what it is, so there's nothing we can do." A kind of apathy is probably born from that. [Sniffle] In that sense, perhaps they've gotten used to it. Hmm. Hmm. And the other point is that the "HIMARS National Tour" you mentioned earlier was a topic you discussed extensively in your book. Hmm. Hmm. So, there's a kind of compulsion to play with it like a meme, isn't there? That's probably the case. My daughter, when she was very young, would start doing strange things when she was sleepy. She would start smiling strangely or acting out strangely, and then she would fall asleep. It's like a kind of mischievous behavior when people are under extreme stress. It's a defense mechanism. Hmm. Hmm. Or, while HIMARS might be harmless, there's also the aspect of people getting excited about "Look how many Russians I've killed!" [Sniffle] Hmm. Hmm. It feels like if we don't all embrace and share those images and rejoice, we might be swept away somewhere. It might just be peer pressure, but I felt that there was also that at the same time as I read about your experiences. Ah, thank you. One of the motivations for me writing this was that I am not a military expert or a political scientist, so I went to see the lives of ordinary citizens. I thought that such reports were surprisingly rare. As I said at the beginning, there are many reports about people living in fear of air raid sirens and in constant anxiety, portraying them as pitiable people. But I wondered if that's really what citizens are like in wartime. And when I actually went there, I encountered many surprising scenes. And as Mr. Koizumi mentioned, I also felt a sense of compulsion, as if I couldn't do anything else. [Cough] Hmm. For example, as I wrote in my book, the recruitment posters for each unit of the Ukrainian army are very similar to game designs. They are like Hollywood movie posters. So, even though they are recruitment posters, they are like, "Let's play a game together!" And the catchphrases are like that. This is not to trivialize war, but it is a kind of defense mechanism. Hmm. [Cough] I felt that very strongly. Hmm. I also saw posters that made me wonder, "Is this really okay?" There were people in camouflage uniforms sitting on a sofa, looking very relaxed. And they were operating drone controllers. And what was written there, although I may not fully understand the Ukrainian, was something like, "You can work in a protected area." But in reality, drone operators are targeted. [Cough] At the Ground Self-Defense Force's Fuji Comprehensive Exercise this year, they apparently simulated attacking the command post of a drone operator. In reality, being a drone operator is not safe. It's not. But it seems like they are casually involved, thinking, "Let's defeat the Russians together." And I felt that perhaps, if they didn't think that way, it would be scary to join the army, even for the sake of defending their homeland. But it seems like they are gradually getting used to it, and the sense of excitement is increasing when recruiting citizens for the dangerous mission of war. [Sniffle] So, in the first part of your book, and in the second part about your visit to Ukraine, you discussed how the narrative about Ukraine and the war in Ukraine should be. You probably felt a lot of stress writing it, even though you might be called idealistic or naive. I also felt that the question of how to narrate it is a very important issue. So, in your book, you discuss how to narrate past wars retrospectively, and how justice can be easily overwritten later. This is discussed from the perspective of corrigibility, which has been discussed in philosophy for a long time. [Sniffle] But then, how should we narrate a war that is currently ongoing? That's another issue. And I think you, Mr. Aju, probably felt a lot of stress about how people like me, who are in this business, talk about the Ukraine war. And yes, I think there's some truth to that. But for those who are involved in what is happening right in front of them, professionally, how should they have spoken? [Sniffle] I read it repeatedly, and I still feel like I haven't found the answer. So, thank you for taking the problem so seriously. But I myself don't have a clear answer to that. Hmm. Hmm. However, let me give you another example. Recently, my company's representative, Ms. Yoko Ueda, who often accompanies me on interviews, went to Russia. She visited St. Petersburg and Moscow. [Cough] In a word, in Japan, people say Russia is cornered, cornered, but at least in those cities, the lives of ordinary citizens are still prosperous, and there is no shortage of goods that could be found in Japan. This was about a month ago. [Laughter] We had a program where she reported on such things. [Cough] Then, as expected, on Twitter, people said things like, "She's not seeing the whole picture," or "St. Petersburg is different from other parts of Russia," and so on. As you wrote in your book, Mr. Aju, the burden of the current war in Russia is heavily distributed in the regions, so it's true that you can't talk about it just by looking at St. Petersburg and Moscow. However, what's important here is that the fact that St. Petersburg and Moscow seem completely unconcerned about the war, and Kyiv is not like that. This asymmetry is precisely what constitutes the perpetrator and the victim, I thought. Ah, I see. In other words, perpetrators do not realize they are perpetrating. Hmm. Hmm. So, for Russia, the Ukraine war is something happening somewhere on the side, and St. Petersburg, although there have been drones recently, doesn't need to worry about it. Hmm. Hmm. So, if we think, "They are strong," then it's truly a wolf. And hmm, [Cough] isn't this the most frightening thing? In your book, you emphasized that the perpetrator is included within peace. In other words, the reason you can look back and say, "We had peace," is because you were the perpetrator. And when you bring up this topic, it's as if all past peace is washed away. But because of that, people who enjoyed peace in the past become even more resistant to that flow. This is the modern version of that, isn't it? Yes. So, people in Moscow and St. Petersburg are, in a sense, at peace. Hmm. You might think, "That's ridiculous," if you're in Japan, but that's precisely the essence of war. Hmm. You know, "Western Front: No unusual activity." After all, the German homeland was never a battlefield until the end of World War I. Hmm. So, the protagonist, I forget his name, when he took a leave and returned to his hometown, it looked somewhat like wartime, but his hometown was completely peaceful. And the locals asked him what the battlefield was like, and he felt despair returning there. This might be the difference between Lviv and Donbas. Hmm. But perhaps it's more the difference between Moscow and the battlefield. Or perhaps between Moscow and Buryatia. Hmm. Or a region. So, the Ukrainian side is constantly launching air raids against Russia. One is to attack fuel terminals and disrupt Russia's war funding, which is a practical objective. But they always say, "We are bringing the war to Russia." So, that makes sense, doesn't it? That there is such a difference. Hmm. The Ukrainian side, which is being attacked, understands this, and therefore, they are likely conducting Russian air raids with political objectives. I see. I don't know how this war will be resolved, but the asymmetry between the perpetrator and the victim is still very evident. Therefore, I believe it would be better to report that Moscow and St. Petersburg are not being cornered, even though it is a very difficult thing to do. But if we report it as is, it will make Russia seem strong. That's where the cruelty lies. Yes. I have relatives in Russia, and many of my old friends, although they no longer speak to me, are in Russia. And I can still see their lives on social media. [Laughter] [Sniffle] Moscow is truly normal. I couldn't go and see it in person last November because I was banned from entering the country, but even from satellite images, Moscow and St. Petersburg will not be cornered until the end. And Ms. Ueda, who is an expert on Russia, is probably speaking with that as a given premise. [Laughter] For example, there is a fuel shortage in various parts of Russia. This is a fact. And in some regions, all the men have left the villages. This is also a fact. But perhaps Moscow and St. Petersburg will remain prosperous cities until the very end. This is written with the premise that it is natural, but if you remove that support, it leads to the argument, "Oh, Russia is still okay?" Hmm. So, Russia as a country... I'm not knowledgeable about Russia at all, but I think St. Petersburg and Moscow are special. In fact, liberal intellectuals were only there. And unlike Japan, [Cough] Japan is originally a federal state with a dictatorial regime, so even the regional cities have their own history and culture. Russia is a bit different in its national structure. [Cough] So, Moscow and St. Petersburg will be protected until the end. That is, in a way, very cruel. Ah, yes. For example, when the February Revolution occurred in 1917, the social circles in St. Petersburg were perfectly normal. They were having dance parties. Hmm. Or during the spring offensive of the Russo-Japanese War, the residences of the Russian commanders in the city were still living aristocratic lives until the day before the fall. I believe they were having a birthday party for the commander's wife at that time. Hmm. So, there is a privileged center, and those people will probably be fine until the very last moment. [Cough] Hmm. In some cases, they will remain fine. Russia itself is unlikely to collapse due to this war. I can't imagine how it will end stylishly, but I think Moscow and St. Petersburg will probably get through it by saying, "It was tough, but we managed." I think so. Is it a matter of disparity within Russia, rather than simply a problem between Russia and Ukraine? The disparity in Russia is very large. Russia has been at war with someone since the Chechen War. That's true. So, with the Ukraine war, for Ukraine, it's a full-scale invasion. Of course, it depends on when the war began, but the entire country has changed drastically since the invasion in 2022. Russia has been at war somewhere, in Chechnya and Syria, and now in Ukraine. In a sense, it's a country that is constantly at war. This is also a completely different point. I see. So, peace in Russia, I don't know how Russians say it, but it's probably different from the peace we think of from the beginning. Hmm. In your book, you pose the question of "peace by coercion" versus "peace by isolation." And I'm not sure if I've fully grasped it. [Sniffle] The first part of the book is set in Yugoslavia, so it's about how to achieve peace between people who are physically close to each other. However, as you pointed out, Russia has also been at war for a long time, but it has always been fought in distant places, so the battlefields themselves have been isolated. From Chechnya, it spread to Dagestan and then to the North Caucasus. So, from Moscow's perspective, it's a distant place, although it's geographically close. Psychologically, the Caucasus feels distant. It was only in the 19th century that they conquered it. Culturally, it's inhabited by Muslims, so it's a war fought in a distant place. Syria is also like that, and the war in Ukraine, which began in 2014, was also fought abroad. Furthermore, in Syria and Ukraine, they have used groups like Wagner. Especially in Syria, the ground war was entirely carried out by Wagner. Although the Russian army provided some artillery support, it was a war in a distant place, making it a peace in a distant place. [Sniffle] So, it might not be easy to definitively say whether Russia is entirely the perpetrator in these wars, but there is no doubt that it has been a perpetrator. However, because that perpetration is not very visible, Moscow and St. Petersburg are probably at peace. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. In that sense, perhaps Moscow and St. Petersburg were also at peace until around last year. Hmm. And then, finally, something like being blown up by a drone in the suburbs of Moscow happened. Perhaps the war has finally begun for Russians. Hmm. Hmm. When there is a dichotomy between war and peace, such as "war" and "peace," perhaps until now, everyone has been on the side of "peace." Hmm. And that's true for Tolstoy's work as well. The nobles in St. Petersburg were living a peaceful life. That's exactly what Tolstoy's work depicts. Yes. And you know, the protagonist, Nikolai, gets tired of war halfway through and returns, but they are still at war with Napoleon, and he starts living a life of hunting in his territory. [Cough] So, even though their country is at war, there's a feeling of being separated by a thin veil, which is common in a large country like Russia. Yes. That might be a characteristic of the country. Indeed. Hmm. In Japan's case, you know, when we go to war, it's far away across the sea. So, even if four aircraft carriers are sunk at Midway, it's just a story. Until 1944, when Japanese territory was actually attacked, people didn't really feel the war. Furthermore, the experience of foreign troops invading their living space was limited to places like Manchuria and Sakhalin. They never experienced that until the end, or rather, they only saw the US military, which was relatively peaceful. So, I feel there are several reasons for this lack of ownership of the war. [Cough] But if, for example, Japan had not been subjected to the Tokyo air raids or atomic bombings, and had somehow surrendered and the war had ended in some way, then Japan might have also experienced a similar lack of ownership of the war. It might have. For example, if they had failed at the Battle of Leyte Gulf, and around 1944, the Emperor had said, "Stop this," and dismissed Hideki Tojo, ending the war, then we might have remembered the war in that way. Yes. In fact, in the 1940s, the national life was still prosperous. It only became rapidly impoverished in the last year or two. Yes, yes. If that had happened, the way we talk about World War II would have been completely different. Hmm. After all, the innocence with which we talk about the Russo-Japanese War is because the war was fought on someone else's land, in Korea and Manchuria. Hmm. Hmm. They didn't experience the suffering of their homes being burned down themselves. Or, Japan participated in World War I, but they only attacked German fortresses in Tsingtao and sent escort ships to Maruta, so there was nothing on the mainland. Hmm. So, it seems that the wars in the early 20th century have been somewhat overlooked. For example, military otaku like me, [Sniffle] don't get angry when I talk about the Russo-Japanese War. [Laughter] Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. But if I start talking about World War I or World War II, people tend to say, "What are you talking about?" Hmm. It's only in World War II that Japanese people, or rather, people today, might have a sense of ownership. This is what you've been talking about. Based on that, how should we, as Japanese people, talk about the war that is happening now? What should we be able to talk about? Mr. Aju, who has actually been there, what do you think? I think it's very difficult, as I said earlier. Hmm. One of the themes of my book, "Peace and Folly," is how to define peace. It's about how much of a broad area can be secured where one doesn't have to think about war, or rather, war, which in this case is almost equivalent to politics. I'm saying this in a complicated way, and sometimes I write it briefly in the book, but not thinking about politics is not peace. It is necessary to think about politics. It is absolutely necessary to think about war. However, the area where you don't have to think about it is how large it is. Hmm. This is not an abstract discussion at all. For example, when you decide to date someone and get married, there are countries where you think about the other person's nationality and countries where you don't. And I think the state of not thinking is better. Hmm. A country where you can marry anyone you fall in love with is better than a country where you can't. And peace is built on the accumulation of such things. For example, who you support as a writer, whose music you listen to. If you start saying, "Listening to Chinese music means you've been brainwashed by cognitive warfare," and so on, then the area where you don't have to think about politics will gradually decrease. Hmm. And I think Japan is in that situation now. And I have raised this as a problem, saying, "This is not good." [Cough] And when talking about war, how can we secure an area where we don't have to think about war, even though there is a war? In other words, hmm, this is a very strange way of putting it, but what I wanted to do with this essay was something like that. When you look at the city of Lviv, if you see it as a city at war, then what you can see becomes limited. And when you take off that feeling and look at it, you see something else. And within that something else, there are of course the limitations of war, but the citizens are, in that sense, seeking an area where they don't have to think about war. And that's why they go to shopping malls and movies. And that part is also a cross-section of a country at war. And I think it's important to see that. Well, as for me, I would like to see more reports on the daily lives of citizens in Ukraine and Russia, not just Moscow but also in provincial cities. Hmm. Hmm. And regarding cultural exchange, the term "cognitive warfare" is very broad. In reality, artists, creators, and intellectuals are all acting with their own thoughts. Hmm. I would like to see a more detailed analysis of that. Originally, in Japan, I, well, by chance, I was doing tours of Chernobyl, so I had been to Ukraine about six or seven times before. So, I think I've been there quite a bit as a Japanese person. But most Japanese people were not aware of Ukraine, let alone the war. Regarding Russia, well, there was an image of a military superpower like the Soviet Union, often described as "old Russia," and on the other hand, it was a subject of subculture, so it wasn't connected at all, and many people didn't really understand Russia as it truly was. And then this war began in that state. And as a result, I think a very simple understanding has spread, such as, "Russia is inherently evil and must be defeated." So, um, anyway, I want to complicate the way we see things, because being able to see things in a complex way is what brings us closer to peace. Hmm. Hmm. Indeed, in your work, and in this book, you mention the complexity of the victim and perpetrator, and you also wrote that Ukraine is the victim and Russia is the perpetrator. No, I think Ukraine is the victim and Russia is the perpetrator. Regarding this war, yes, but in the way history is narrated, it seems like things that are not like that are all mixed up. That's probably what the installation part is about. Yes. Ah, that's right. Well, that installation part, um, it happened to be at the same time as Israel's invasion of Gaza, so there were exhibitions in solidarity with Israel. Hmm. And I thought, "Is this okay?" Hmm. I still think so. [Cough] Hmm. But that's also very complex. So, the more you research European history, the more you realize how unclear it is who is the perpetrator and who is the victim. It's very complex. But, and also, we easily say "Russia and Ukraine," but in reality, there are countless couples of Russians and Ukrainians, and people have mixed together and lived. Hmm. And they have many relatives. That's right. Russians and Ukrainians are constantly calling each other, and the Russians who attacked are asking if the air raid yesterday was okay. There are many such scenes. So, the way of narrating war that assumes absolute evil or absolute good victims, while perhaps understandable for those involved in the war, is not that clean or simple in reality. Hmm. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] However, it has become difficult to say what is right or wrong. For about a year after the start of the Ukraine war, it was very clear: the authoritarian states, Russia, China, and the Western alliance defending liberal democracy. It was as if our vision had suddenly cleared up. But around the time the Israeli invasion of Gaza began, our vision gradually became clouded, and what seemed clear for a moment now seems like an illusion. [Music] [Music] Hmm. The inherent messiness of war has returned. What is the situation for ordinary people? What is their situation regarding war? [Music]