Transcription
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Deep Dive. Otelli is not able to join us today, so you're stuck with just me, Stephen.
Now, a few days ago, Prime Minister Lawrence Wong gave his second National Day rally speech, and he spoke about an issue that is close to the heart of many parents. It's about keeping our kids safe online. And with artificial intelligence now very much a part of our lives, having access to technology means opening up to them both the opportunities, but also the risks that come along with using such technology. So that of course is a real challenge. So how do we keep our kids safe online while still letting them explore, learn new things, pick up new skills? How can we prepare them for this brave new world but in a safe way?
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To help us unpack all of this, I have with me Josephine Tio, Minister for Digital Development and Information. >> Hello everyone. Jane Fu, a parent of a 9-year-old and a six-year-old who is currently working in the tech industry. >> Hello everyone.
>> Okay, ladies, welcome. Uh, Minister, I'll start with you. In his rally speech, you know, prime minister said kids are having too much screen time and >> uh this is not new, but >> what do you think has really changed in the last 10 20 years?
When I I think about um the lives of children um and how they relate to parents, I think there are two things that make it so much more challenging. One is visibility. The other is familiarity. Let me just explain. Visibility has to do with whether you are able to see what your children are doing. And when they go online, um very often the activities are just not visible to you. Mhm.
>> Uh whereas in if you are going to a playground physically you can see what your children are doing in the neighborhood you can see what your children are doing at least you can talk to your neighbors and ask them about it right >> um and in today's context because so much of their time could be spent let's say on an online game or if they are on social media you have a lot less ability to peer into their lives unless they tell you about it. The second thing um to do with familiarity is that this is a brave new world that uh we ourselves are trying to come to grips with. We ourselves are learning to interact with one another in the digital domain. So it's quite unlike parenting in the past where the terrain that your children are you know having to navigate through is terrain that you yourself have been through. Therefore, you kind of feel more equipped. You kind of feel that I I have I have uh nuggets of gold, you know, I have life experiences that are also relevant to you today. You feel less of that because the world that they, you know, are active in is not quite the world that you are very familiar with. So, I think visibility and familiarity presents two big challenges for parents in today's context. And of course, sometimes when you're not familiar with it, it can pose or come across as a scary thing because you're not sure where they're going to go with it.
But Jane, you you were quite um if I may use the word, triggered by what you heard when when PM said, you know, really about limiting screen time for our kids. What is it about what he said that caused you to feel that way?
>> So, um limiting screen time, I think it has been something that's going on for some time, but I think it has been brought into the spotlight recently with the grow campaign and um a KKK study not so long ago. And so um though I agreed with um the limits of screen time being necessary for young children I also felt this sense of um conflict because as a working parent as a full-time working parent it's difficult to implement like limits as what PM Wong said like bring your child go out um to to to play to socialize because um factually when I come home at 6:00 at 7:00 it's dark and sometimes on weekends when I bring the child out it rains so we are limited by all is and um unless I have a lot of resources to bring my child from enrichment class to enrichment class or um bring them to activities I think um there's this parent guilt that I feel so um yeah so that was what was uh triggering to me what PMO said was only a portion of a bigger of a bigger issue that um it should be brought into a spotlight that um we have limitations as working parents but I don't deny the fact that we do need to put certain limits on the screen time um and that does not need to be um the timing. We can put boundaries um in the form of like telling the child a certain time limit and then taking it off or we can set routines for the child so that they know that after they do a certain bit of work they can have screen time. Right.
>> Yeah. So there are many more ways to doing this screen time >> and we want to explore some of those in fact and you were so triggered in that sense that that very night she wrote a commentary to us that's that's how we found Jane you know because she felt that what he had said seemed to be this almost blanket sweeping statement and to make all these parents who you know have no choice suddenly feel like oh my gosh I'm not doing such a great job you know
>> well you know um feeling guilty about how we raise our children is is just um part of of of being a parent. >> I I think in every generation uh parents >> will feel that they they would like to provide for their children more and there are different ways you know in which they think of their own um inadequacies in the in in previous times it was I I don't provide enough food for my children and then I don't provide enough opportunities for education and then now it is that I don't have enough time to spend with you. So I understand that and frankly I think we start from a point um of not judging people. It's um it's about acknowledging that they have these challenges. So as Jane says and I thought that it was >> kind of you know interesting that you said that you're home at 600 and I think that very often my goodness if you can get home by 8 you're quite lucky already. Yeah. I myself remember being in in those kind of
>> if I can ask you what did you do because you've been in politics for quite a while. So you'd be out for many hours a day including the evenings as well when your kids were younger. Was a TV their companion at some point in time.
>> Yeah. Please don't remind me of I think I think even to this day I will think back to you know occasions where I feel like I'm totally inadequate as a mother >> and you will never really be rid of it. you will always think about oh you know I should have been spending more time with them whether on a regular weekday on weekend or you know any anytime so these feelings are very natural and it all stems from the same place of care and concern it's only because we love our children and also because we want to do better with them and for them that inevitably we will feel this way um but coming back to this topic of uh highlighting it I think the objective really is to say that collectively we probably need to think of better ways to support each other and to acknowledge the fact that um uh on the one hand this incredible device and the world in which it opens up um brings many opportunities as we talked about earlier and it is also a world that we have to help our children learn to navigate and you know make sense of and be good at and yet at the same time is also acknowledging the fact that we can also go overboard is acknowledging the fact that if we're not careful, we end up uh encouraging or cultivating habits and behaviors that may not serve them very well in the long run. So, I think PM's concern and and I think the reason he wanted to >> um shine a spotlight on this issue at um at the most important, you know, speech that he makes every year is to say that as a society, we probably have to find ways to do better in support of each other. That's where I think he's coming from
>> and it's really challenging because we've talked about this topic several times in different formats even here in deep dive about how AI and technology are so much a part of our lives that schools students are also using them to learn to help them with do the work their research. So it's it's a question of at which point does it do the thinking for me and therefore I am not learning you know and that was one of the debates we had where where some felt that AI is taking away your ability to learn as a young student you know but at the same time it is filling a void that I could learn in a way that I probably never would have without AI.
>> Absolutely. >> Yeah. So, so how then do we bridge this in that sense because we need to use it but at the same time we don't want to use it too much and then it's like what Jane said maybe is it about drawing boundaries and saying when you use it how you use it what do you both think
>> from my point of view because my kids are still very young nine and six I personally I don't want them to go too fast into AI because I think that just as how we want to learn algebra our kids to learn algebra they need to learn the building blocks we wouldn't teach our kids algebra without teaching them addition and subtraction so I still go by the old princip example of okay um googling the internet finding out what are the sources um finding out what variety of sources and discerning what is accurate um and then helping them to discern which um information is the correct one so for personally for me for my boy um because it's learning science I use the internet to search for life cycles and yeah and I show him like oh this is the video of a life cycle I show you different videos so I don't use AI um to teach them and I don't think that there's a rush towards teaching AI at least for the primary school um because it teach them a foundational knowledge to think um yeah but beyond um secondary school I do acknowledge um the potential benefits of it um but again then um the owners also lies with the parents to teach the kids to remind the kids um how not to use it there's a lot of debate about just putting in prompts for your essay and having the whole essay out beyond what the school is teaching the parents must also um remind the kids that it is um plagiarism or or or yeah the values that the child the parents must teach.
>> I think Jane is actually a very sophisticated AI user and therefore able to get a sense of um how AI should or should not be introduced to the children at a very young age. Uh I think as a first step it goes to this point about familiarity. If you yourself aren't using AI in any meaningful way, you can't possibly understand the limits of you know its um its uh use and and you also don't know what are the risk that comes with it. And if you're then trying to figure out how to parent >> um you know with a limited knowledge yourself, I think that's already >> um a handicap.
>> Okay. So first things first, I think we ourselves need to play around with this technology and understand the extent to which it is uh usefully applied and the extent to which it makes mistakes and it and it really should not be used. So gaining that understanding ourselves is >> ground level first step must get there first otherwise it's really tough for us to then think about you know what are the right ways uh of letting our children be exposed to it. So Jane to me is actually quite sophisticated in the way she thinks because not everyone understands that this technology especially generative AI you know can make mistakes and it can spew nonsense while sounding very very very confident.
>> That's right. That's right. So therefore I think um as a nation um it goes in lock step uh thinking about you know parenting in an AI age goes hand inhand with understanding how you use this technology for good >> and what are the problems that come with it. So you you can't separate the two too much. Yeah. Your your your whole knowledge universe must encompass these two. If you you don't have a sense of how it's useful in the workplace. You also don't quite know how to tell your children.
>> I mean, you got to know how it works, right? You know, so so I imagine it's almost like I was just thinking as you were saying that it's like learning how to drive a car. I can't teach my kids how to drive if I could if I didn't know how to drive myself.
>> Can you can pay a instructor? >> I know. Yeah. But overseas the parents can teach, you know, of course, of course. But at the same time, >> but you must know, you know, the limits and the basics and how the car works, how the gears change. But at the same time, are you not afraid that because now I don't have to learn how to drive a manual car. I can straight away learn how to drive an automatic car.
>> So in the same way, technology is leaprogging sometimes. Do we really need to understand always the foundation? Are you concerned that your kids may be a little bit left behind that they're not >> No. Um I think they're digital natives. So whatever technology that you give them, they will pick up very fast.
>> Much faster than you can. Yeah. And frankly speaking, we don't know how AI will look like in one two years time. >> Yeah. Uh I mean truth to be told Chat GPT only came into existence like two years plus three years ago when when it started showing up um in the public space although AI has been around.
>> Yes. AI has been around for a long time. Yeah. So we really don't know how this will pan out and I don't think that is a rush to teach our kids because we really we don't want to teach them uh redundant technology. I do think that um you know as parents um even our own interactions with other people >> um have already signal to us that there are some skills that are enduring >> and they have to be taught consciously and you have to be intentional about it. So for example being able to interact with one another >> accepting differences >> but I'm interacting with you. I'm messaging you.
>> Yeah. >> All right. >> Okay. You got me there. But, you know, interacting in the real world, play. Yeah. Resolving conflict.
>> So, is that what we're saying in a way that we want more of that facetime, that human interaction, >> not just the the connection online.
>> Yeah. I I believe that the online world is a replica of the offline world. So just as how we learn values, what values that we face, what values that we we are learning in our offline world, it's actually applicable to online world. We need to be kind to one another. So in the offline on in the online world, we don't we don't cyber bully.
>> Yeah. We be a bystander on the online world just as how we would stand up for something that is not right in the offline world. So as parents um we must teach the kids these values >> so that they can thrive in the online world. That's probably the most challenging bit having those values taught and and in a way because online world you can kind of >> get away with it sometimes you're exactly whereas if I bully someone in the playground the other kids will see me you know what I mean >> so so let let's move the conversation on to bit to talk about what are some of the measures we need to take to to safeguard our kids I mean >> because we look at other countries I think in Australia you got to be at least 16 years old to have an account on social media >> the UK is also introducing an age verification system.
>> Is this something minister that we are considering a way to sort of try and police to a certain extent or to create some friction before >> kids can get online?
>> Yeah, this is a really interesting topic and we have been looking at it from various angles for quite some time. >> Um the fact of the matter is that there is no silver bullet. There is no one single measure that can help you to address your multiple concerns. If it was just a matter of passing a law or making a policy, um we've been able to do that. In 2022, we introduced the online safety bill. In 2023, we said online criminal harms. And then in 2024, we said okay, if you use AI generated content in the context of an election, this is what is okay and this is what is not okay. So, in terms of being able to bring about laws, that's not our handicap. It's it's something we can do, right? Then the question is what then do you want to be able to do to better support families? I think there are really two parts. Uh one to me is that d parenting in the digital age is really difficult. Why? Well, if you think about it, how does one learn how to parent? You didn't take a course in you know poly techchnic or university pass a test. Nobody said that you needed you know certification before you can be a parent.
>> So most of us parent our children the way we were parented as children. We observe what our parents did to us with us >> and then we more or less copy the same thing and do it with our children. >> The problem is that our parents did not deal with a digital reality. And actually, we don't deal with the same digital reality that our children deal with. So the skills that you require to parent in a digital age is something that we probably will benefit from learning.
>> Okay. >> And I think that is actually something that Singapore can strive to do better in. You know how to support each other to understand this whole new environment. And so for example, you know, when a child gets his first device, when the child first goes on social media, what are the things that you look out for and what are the ways in which you can gain the trust of the child so that the child is willing to share with you, you know, what's going on so that you peel away the visibility problem and then you yourself become familiar with what they are experiencing and therefore you can give them better guidance. I think the second thing that is worth our effort uh thinking about is even if you said less screen time, you know, um less device use, >> what are the children supposed to do with their time, >> right?
>> You have to find a way to fill the time. And so removing, reducing one thing without thinking about filling it, >> okay, >> introducing adding more things is just not a very balanced set of considerations. And the second part of it, I think when it comes to children is how we can reinforce return to a play-based childhood. If we don't want them to spend all their time as kids, you know, on the phone, then we have to say what else then is it a play-based childhood? And if it is a play-based childhood, what do we do in the physical environment, in in the home environment, in the school environment that helps to, you know, grow the desire of children? I want to go to the playground, you know, and more than I want to play with my >> okay >> phone or I want to go and see my friends, you know, or I want to go have a walk with a grandpa. How do we bring this about as a society returning to a play-based childhood? I think these are the things that are worth doing. Helping parents, okay, you know, become more skillful and helping the whole environment to be much more conducive to a play-based childhood. Reading is still a very good activity. And you know, a long time ago when we had no options, well, we read >> and um but in today's context, we can also appreciate that for certain parents maybe even taking the child to the library is a little bit too much. So actually NLB has a program they will deliver the books to the parents' home in order to expose the children to reading from a very young age. There are also many community organizations for example that run kids read programs you know to uh encourage children particularly those who are more shy to interact with one another and um to also fall in love with books um and so many other activities that are being organized on the ground. I I think there is room for us to do even more in order to better support parents in implementing the idea of a play-based childhood.
>> So, it's about creating a more conducive environment that will make yeah going out to play more exciting than hanging out on the phone. You know, >> uh but I guess that that is the real challenge because you say looking at parents as role models and sometimes we are guilty too of spending a lot of time on our phones.
>> What's the first thing you do when you get up in the morning? >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Guilty as charged.
>> Yeah. So, so it's really about a fine balance. If I as a parent say it's okay, you can go and sign up anyway and just pretend you're 16. Yeah.
>> Then it defeats the purpose. >> And actually, you don't even need a rule like that. You have parental controls.
>> Okay. >> And e even if we just shared more widely about the parental controls that social media platforms and devices have made available to us as users, you would already have empowered parents to a much larger extent. Yeah, I agree with minister because um there are only so many laws that you can put for the social media companies. It's like so many other platforms will avail itself.
>> Even though you banned um you put a ban on social media, how about the online space? How about the online games um the chatting spaces? To what extent do you cast this net? >> Exactly. There will always be unregulated um spaces that children could wade into. But having said that it I think it cannot mean that um everything on social media is free for all. It cannot be.
>> And so the question becomes the uh what the one that you raised if you introduce age assurance what do you want to do with this new intervention. So in our case we already have age assurance for app stores. Yeah. And the concept is that you know uh well even before they interact on an app they first have to download it. So that's one you know uh uh avenue for you to do age gating right. So certain apps they're not appropriate for ch children and use of a certain age. They shouldn't download it in the first place. So but after that you know it's like the apps that they can use >> there is also a question of excessive use >> versus okay healthy moderate use >> okay >> and and even if they have moderate use in terms of time >> well what are they seeing you know when they go onto these platforms okay and is there an understanding with the platform of what we can do you know um on a data driven basis. Do we do we are we able to observe and are we able to find a way to nudge? I think those are the areas that we want to explore >> uh what we can do better to nudge users and to also ensure that in terms of the content that they exposed to it is age appropriate. I think these are the two things that we want to find meaningful ways of intervening. This is therefore to say that uh yes acknowledging that in this domain there are many different facets to it. It doesn't mean that social media um it should be free for all. There should be some ways of moderating the content that is exposed to young people and to make sure that they are age appropriate. I mean we all I think agree that when it comes to things like pornography and violence in certain areas it's definitely no go areas you know but when you say nudge I mean what are you really saying?
>> We have been looking you know to um firstly have a better assessment of what kinds of age verification are robust >> and and how do you implement age verification. There's age verification at the point of account being set up, >> right? >> But there is also age verification in the process of use and there are other ways in which you do age estimation, not necessarily to ask for, you know, ID in order to prove the age and so on.
>> And so I think we keep an open mind as to which of these age assurance measures are useful for different contexts. Then to me the question is that >> well it's like if you go to cinema um there is someone who can stand there and say you know show me your IC you know and then if you're not appropriate I mean you're not the right age then you cannot go and watch this right >> you have to think of it in the digital domain too how do we find a way to you know moderate the extent that you are exposed now but that goes to whether well I have a way of estimating what your age is >> I guess some of us would ask Well, is there a right age? At what age is it is a child too young? At what age is a child old enough? Because different kids, different maturity levels. Some are more responsible overall, some are are not, you know. So, how how then do we move forward with this? And again, for many parents listening out, I mean, they are also asking and saying, I want some help. I use the device. But
>> so here is where I think we have to unpack and you know let the research inform us. Uh first to unpack is the difference between a device plus screen use um screen time versus content.
>> Okay. >> Right. So I think the science on the screen time is quite well understood and there was a set of guidelines that was put together by colleagues in the Ministry of Education together with colleagues in the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Social and Family Development. So below the age of 18 months, you know, um really zero screen time, don't touch the device. It's best not to expose your kids at all. And um don't don't normalize that behavior for them so early. Where it gets less clear is content. You know when the kids are exposed to for example social media what constitutes good exposure what constitutes bad exposure and there is quite a lot of debate around that. I think regardless of where the research findings take us, um even intuitively we know that we don't want children to be exposed to overly sexualized images. We don't want the children to become victims of cyber bullying.
>> We don't want children to see so much violence and um you know somehow form in their minds that this is normal behavior. So even within these limits, I think you know there is room for us to say how do you then either work with the platforms to try and moderate exposure or and or together allow the parents to peel away this you know opakqueness and and have a relationship with the child that actually is inviting to the child um in terms of being willing to share with the parents what they are exposed to. So that's one thing. There has to be a stronger sense that when we have online interactions, um there is a certain accountability. What you said earlier, what constitutes good behavior? Well, if you want to have good behavior be the norm, then antisocial behavior, bad behavior has to come with a consequence. Um and the consequence sometimes is just that this content should be made to disappear. So um when parliament reopens I think we are tableabling a new bill.
>> It's on online safety relief and accountability. The idea is that if people are harmed through their online interactions, >> there must be a way to get either the perpetrator or the platform to in the first instance remove the content.
>> So, so that you bring relief to the victim >> and then find some way of saying that look if you are a reculcrant then maybe this is antisocial behavior. you have to find a way to say that you you have to be held to account >> stronger measures for that. So so it really sounds like I mean with online harm and things like that yeah we want to hold people accountable but otherwise you're you're kind of saying that for the rest it's really about the parent and the child and that relationship where they need to a large extent be more involved and perhaps parents need to take on a bigger role. Is that fair to say that they need to be more involved? Jane what do you think?
>> So I think it's going back to the fundamentals of parenthood. What is our role as a parent? It is to teach the child. It is to guide the child. And so um to guide the child, to teach the child, you need to spend time with the child. You need to teach your child values. Um you need to know what the child is doing. So it's just going back fundamentally to that um on knowing what the child is doing online. And I think a very easy way to circumvent um or to know what the child is doing online um is to have the child um play the device or do the device in the living room >> until a certain age where he is old enough and is mature enough to understand the risk involved and um that takes regular talking to him or to her on to what are the potential risks that you will take um that you will meet online and and just having unfiltered um time um about addressing it. I think as a society we can do better in supporting parents. I'm completely sympathetic towards parents to say I'm at my wits end and I want to do this with my children with my child but I don't know how.
>> Okay, >> you know so can you help me? Can society come together to provide more resources more support in me trying to discharge my responsibilities as a caring parent as a loving parent. I think this is one part that is very worth our effort in doing.
>> I think all parents, you know, are in this space and trying to figure it out as it goes along.
>> And if I were to have to parent in the AI age, I think these fundamentals don't change so much.
>> Yeah. >> But I still think that I have to make an attempt to understand their world. If I don't understand their world, if I'm not able to speak their lingo, if I don't have any sense of what they experience, >> they will feel that whatever advice I give to them is very irrelevant.
>> Yeah. >> And they will feel you just don't understand me, us.
>> That's right. >> So that is the effort um that I think we have to put in. Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. No risk. I'm trying. I'm trying. Okay. Well, I mean, this is one debate where or one discussion rather that is going to be a debate for for the time to come. And with technology constantly evolving, I think we'll always be playing catch-up. So, I think while we figure it out, we also need to learn what it is that is in our environment today, which means understanding technology, understanding how things work so that we can better guide our children. Well, folks, if you also have thoughts on this issue, we do want to hear from you. I mean I I think there many parents out there who all have this debate at the dinner table you know so let us know your thoughts any opinions you have on it as well we do love to hear from you but otherwise that's it for deep dive today let me just give a shout out to my team Tiffany Angani Johari Joan Chan Sowin Hopaining Nathaniel Fetto and Allison Jenner video by Radza Raman we'll see you next week bye for