Transcription
Hey guys, welcome back to the Hear Me Raw Pod. I am Toby and my co-host is none other than the Kate Save, but you might know her from Shark Tank. She's also founder of BFIT Foods and picked up Telra's business of the year award, too.
Kate. Well, Toby, you've got a super impressive CV. 25 years in global commercialization experience, and you founded Creative Cubes, Australia's leading co-working space and real estate business.
All right, let's get on with the pod. Welcome back to the pod, Toby.
Hey, Kate. Good to see you again. How's your week been?
It's great. What about your week? What's going on?
Yeah, a few challenges, quite honestly. Yeah. Um my oldest daughter has has been having panic attacks um and not wanting to go to school. Um we've got a train station that's literally I like one and a half kilometers from our house. Yeah. So I've actually taken the mornings to walk the dogs. Two birds with one stone, dare I say. Walk the dogs, take Maddie to the train station on foot firstly to try and just get blood flowing and oxygen to the brain for her. Yeah. Um, I'd already done my workout. Um, and then work walk the dogs, but she's not really been wanting to go to school. She's not being bullied, but she just doesn't feel like she belongs. And so, as a parent, I'm kind of a little bit stuck to be honest. Um, trying to figure out how to serve my kid. Um, and you know, also like have her deal with some tough stuff rather than just keeping her in Cottonwall. Yeah. sort of lean into the toughness, but know that she's not, you know, I think I've said to you plenty of times before, I I value myself as the bumpers on the bowling alley. Yes, she can throw the ball however she wants. Through her legs, upside down, doesn't matter. So long as I'm there, the bumpers are there, she's going to hit a pin. She's not going to fall in the gutter. Yes. But this one, while the gutters while the while the bumpers remain on for her, I'm just not sure what to do. We don't get taught this. There's no parenting school that we've enrolled in anymore.
Well, in the entrepreneurial world, if there was a manual, I'm throwing it out anyway and just kind of winging it.
True. That's right. But yeah, so these are some of the challenges which I think is opportune. Unfortunately, it's opportune because our guest today, uh, Dr. Zach is an expert in this space. Yeah. Just by literally by chance. Um, we've been having these challenges through term one and term two. Uh we're almost at the end of term two now. Um so he wants to come on the pod and talk about bullying um and some of the challenges. I'd love to take some lessons from him personally. Not that not that I'm a bully, but just kind of like how do I um so if it's okay with you, we'll jump to a break thanks to our great friends at the Rise Network and come back with Dr. Zach.
Guys, I want to introduce you to Rise, a business cohort like no other. So what is the Rise Network? Rise Network is a curated inner circle of 10 to 12 like-minded peers designed to provide a confidential high trust environment where business owners and leaders can gain strategic insights, actionable solutions, and lasting relationships. Rise isn't just networking. It's a game-changing business support system. It has strategic problem solving built-in expert facilitation, actionable insights, long-term impact, and authentic relationships. And it's based exclusively around hightrust cohorts. For your membership, you gain full access to creative cues. That means you can drop in when you're on the run to use the meeting rooms, breakout spaces, or even just dock in for the day. We wanted to serve the underserved, the people that do need the help, do need the support, don't necessarily have the funds to be able to do it, and don't necessarily fit into one of these other organizations. Um, and so that's where Rise kind of came from. So, there you have it, guys. Go to werise.auu and I hope to see you at one of our cohorts soon.
Zack, Doc, Dr. Zack. Thanks, David. Good day. Yeah. Uh, how would you like to be?
Zach's fine. Zach's fine. Great. Zach's fine. Welcome to Kate and my podcast. It's called Hear Me Roar, which in this case is a different roar to the roar that I want to talk about with you. It's R O A R RAW, but actually perhaps we can talk about the RA a which is, you know, bullying and and being vulnerable and and that sort of situation. So, do you want to just give us a high level or give the audience a high level on your background?
Yeah, thanks Toby. Um, so my background is in community empowerment. So I did a PhD. Um, I actually did the PhD on the relationships between people experiencing homelessness and volunteers. Oh. Who work in the homelessness sector. But about halfway through my PhD, my supervisor looked at me and said, "This isn't really about homelessness, is it, Zach?" And I was like, "No, it's not." And what it was about was how power relationships are reinforced or diminished. So I went from there. I was um working in a school and the kids came up to me and said, "Dr. Greg, uh we want you to bring a anti-bullying program into our school." So I went out there and tried to find one for them. And it was all just adults coming in and telling young people what they should say and do. But I knew how amazing my students were, what they were capable of. And I knew that the language they used and their understandings of the types of experiences they were having were much more nuanced than any adult would ever be able to convey. So we developed this program called the standup project. Um and now we work in hundreds of schools around Australia. Um, but what makes it unique is in our program the students are actually the owners of it. So they actually teach their peers about how to be an upstander. They actually teach their parents and their teachers.
Amazing. So they set their teachers homework, behavior, expectations. This is a school I want to go to. And it's so incredibly powerful. Yeah. Wow. Um and then they teach younger year levels um and really take ownership of what school culture looks like. Wow. so empowering and something that every school needs seeing these increasing incidences of suicide particularly in schools and I guess the sad thing is it's not just the secondary schools it is primary schools as well yeah we know that one in four young people experience bullying um Australian classrooms are actually some of the most disruptive in the world wow our year nine students experience some of the well actually the worst rates of bullying online bullying in the developed world. Holy crap, it's ridiculous. Um, so with disruptive classrooms, we know many teachers are experiencing secondary forms of trauma and 50% of teachers leave the that leave the job within the first 5 years of starting. So, so where's this all coming from? Are we are we that bad as a people or is it just that kids are learning from their parents or their parents aren't dialed in to what's going on with their kids?
Look, I think it's incredibly complex. I think social media obviously plays a role, but it's not solely social media. Social media is a tool used to enact power. However, it's purely a tool. Um, so from our perspective at the Standup Project, it's really about a lack of engagement with young people, valuing their perspectives and valuing their input, how to create safer and better schools. Um, we know the rates of bullying have got heaps worse since CO. We're not exactly sure why. Um, but it's a serious issue that needs to be addressed.
You know, I was on in the in the opening segment, I talked about Madison. Yes. Actually, Harper, my youngest daughter, um is having a really hard time at school at the moment. And my wife told me this morning that she's called a parent meeting, which I commend her for. I had no visibility of this, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. But uh my sim called a parent meeting with all of the kids parents that Harper has called out in terms of having a hard time. Yeah. And and said, "Hey, I think we need to do some adulting because our kids are doing stuff that need some adult involvement." Yeah. Yeah. Um and it turns out that all of the kids are feeling the same way that Harper's feeling from each other indirectly against each other. Yeah. Um and because there's no um guidance, it's just getting messy. It's just kind of like this infinite loop of messiness. And so the the moms are getting together, I think tonight on a on a hangout or a FaceTime to sort of just talk about, hey, what is your kid saying? This is what my kids saying in in a non-confronting way. My wife is also a social worker, so she's got a skill set to be able to un the problem without So is mine. Yeah. going, you know, like the Spider-Man sort of meme. Um, sorry to call that social media there, but like you get what I'm saying. Um, but I do wonder if it wasn't for Simmy in this situation. I'm like I'm blind to it. Yeah. You know, Harper and I talk a lot. She says that so and so upset her today and I've my my steer is like don't go into the rabbit hole. stay stay up and be proud and and do and don't don't turn into that. But that's about as deep as I can get with her because again I haven't read the manual on parenting.
Yeah. It's so interesting that it's so ingrained in somehow the Australian culture if globally we're the worst particularly in year 9. Is that what you were saying? Particularly in for online bullying. Yeah. So that's there's something in the Australian culture that's hiding it or letting it be socially acceptable and and the first thing that comes to mind is that toughen up mate like you'll be right that don't dwell on it all those sorts of things rather than actually down. And it's also parents don't know what to do. Um I've got two beautiful kids. They're both neurode divergent. Um, and there's no education for for families about how you constructively advocate to the school about your child's welfare. Um, so yeah, my partner's a a social worker as well. So, she's really good at it. However, we see so many parents who hear from their child that they might be experiencing bullying and then angrily email the teacher. Ah, so my daughter came home the other day and she said um she said, "Daddy, I'm being bullied at school." And so I ultimately I guess went into ultimate dad mode. Um I was really angry. I was frustrated. You know, I wanted to blame people. But after talking to her for a little while, what I realized was actually happening was her friend just kept coming up and giving her lots of hugs because they both loved unicorns. So I we use what's called friendship fire, mean on purpose, and bullying because young people do tend to categorize everything under bullying. So I had to say to her, "Darling, you're not actually being bullied. That's just a friendship fire and disagreement." But if you don't have that kind of language and you don't understand the nuances of those types of behaviors, your natural inclination is to get angry and really not know what to do.
Yeah. So, we we've talked about like sports before on the on the pod with different people that have come on. Um, sometimes, and I'm not sure if I'm being disrespectful, but my intent is to be respectful. Um, but give an analogy. Sometimes you don't uh the other team doesn't win. Sometimes you lose. Yeah. And sometimes in this situation it's very easy to go and say hey teacher or point or without actually reflecting and understanding. It's quickly it's very easy to quickly blame. Oh they you know, we they they were too good here. They were too good there. No no no we weren't good enough there. We weren't good enough here and we weren't communicating well enough which led to a failure in our defense which means we lost the game basketball sports and allergywise. When it comes to kids, it's in my in my lens, it's very similar. It's absorb the information, understand the context, then work out who the players are on the field, and then work out how to construct a a change in the offense that's coming at us. Yeah. Um and and I think that like it's very easy to to write a I think you make a really good point, which is, you know, it's very easy to write a quick email to the teacher and fire up, right? Yeah. And create blame. But actually what you've got to do is absorb and say is my kid either too soft and like just or misinterpreting or is there a communication issue? Most of the stuff that I've experienced not the expert definitely not the doctor here is lack of communication. Yeah. Which causes 90% of the problems that I'm trying to solve. And when people are able to communicate in an effective way or even just communicate more often than not, it's a miscommunication and it's a problem solve. Yeah. And our advice that we give to parents is that simply communicate. So as a parent, your natural instinct when your child might be experiencing bullying or indeed bullying someone else is to take decision-m power away from them and do something about it to protect them. But bullying is a form of power that is exerted over a young person. Yes. So taking decision making away from that child is another disempowering experience for them. So we encourage families to talk to their child and say how should we as a family deal with this? How should we contact the school? That's very very powerful.
I was in a situation a couple weeks ago where um I took advice from my sister. Yeah. I was dealing with a narcissist. Yeah. And I took advice from my sister. My sister was My sister's advice was do not go in there and shoot bullets. Yes. Go in there, tell them how you feel and what you're going to do, which disarms them. Yeah. And takes the power away from them, which is what they're thriving on in a situ. This is not with my kids, by the way. Um I wish it was as elementary as that, but you make a really good point around um not like throwing fuel on the fire, but trying to put water on the fire. Yeah. And trying to shift that power balance. Power balance. Yeah.
So we had this beautiful thing happen in in one of our programs where so our our sub leaders were presenting to the teachers of the school. They say that facilitators have 40% control over any given session. I argue that I've got about 10% control because it's the students who are actually delivering it. So we got there. All the student leaders were there. All the teachers were there and the students came up to me and said, "We we want to talk to the teachers. We haven't told you about this yet. Um, but we've got a plan." I was like, "Okay, this is your program. That's fine." So, they started by setting behavior expectations for their teachers and they got their phones to make sure they wouldn't open up their phones. But then one of the students got up and said to their teachers, "What we're going to do is we're going to ask you some questions. Every time the answer is yes, you need to do a move from the macarina." And the teacher said, "Well, we don't know the macarina." So the kids got up and they did the dance to show this to show the um teachers. But then the students said to them, "Has our disruptive classrooms ever impacted your mental health?" Most of the teachers indicated yes. Then the student said, "Have you ever been bullied by a parent?" Most of the teachers said yes. Wow. Then they said, "Can you honestly tell me how well you know our anti-bullying policy?" Most of the teachers indicated that they didn't know it particularly well. So then the student said, "How do you expect us to be involved in our own well-being when you don't even know our policies? and when you haven't included us in the development of the policies that relate to our own wellbe and you could have heard a pin drop where there was this collective understanding that we all experience bullying that the students are the main beneficiaries of these policies yet they are being excluded from the process of the development of them. And so what these students end up doing is redeveloping the bullying policies, writing it in simple languages, and then teaching it to other kids. Wow, that's so powerful. And it was about shifting the power back to those individuals who are experiencing the bullying in the first place. That is that is incredible. Really incredible. That was an aha moment for me, by the way. Yeah.
Um, who's your customer? Who who who who is engaging you?
Schools. Yeah. Schools. Um, so we're in um about 80 schools around Australia and overseas at the moment. So uh we work with the teachers, families and and um students. Mh. Um and we're on what's called the mental health menu here in Victoria, which means we've been independently evaluated. Um and we've just partnered with ME University. Great. Um because we don't think there's a program like this.
So you're doing it even at the at the university level as well, not just the high school level.
No, we we've partnered with ME to do research on our program outcomes because it's just so phenomenal what we're seeing. Yes. In our program. Yes. I mean, we've seen it is not unusual for to see tears from parents, teachers, and kids about the impact that we're having. It's so powerful. Yeah, I can see how challenging it would be for a teacher in the room with the expectations now with their academic performance, their um choice of language. Every word that comes out of their mouth can be, you know, used against them and then they're supposed to be disciplining the class without any authority to really discipline like they may have been in the past and then copying it. Yeah. If a kid receives that discipline in a different way to the administration [Music] going home and yeah, I've seen it like I like when I was in high school or even like I remember um so I was I was a great sumo as a kid and uh we competed in a sports carnival and um one of my oldest friends father he was a lunatic absolute lunatic lawyer but lunatic and and his and his kid couldn't couldn't on the table and and nothing could ever be wrong and you know what I mean like and so um and I understand that as a parent by the way but I'm also also ready to catch knowing that it's not all glasses or half full but um this this guy I don't want to expose his name but this guy went up to one of our teachers at the swimming carnival because the school was so full that we had to have some kids had to be two people in the same lane um in a race to just get through the heats. And this guy wanted his son in his own lane because he had a chance of actually going to districts and stuff like that. And so the dad went up to the teacher and said, "How dare you put my kid in front of everyone?" The teacher threw him in the pool. Yeah. And you could do that back then. You could do that back then. Threw the threw the threw the dad in the pool. Yes. Right. Okay. Threw the dad in the pool. My My cousin and I still talk about it to today. I mean, I'm bring it up on the pod 35 years later.
How long ago was this?
35. I reckon it was if it wasn't like 89, it would have been like 91 at latest. Yeah.
Well, this is the thing. Back then the role of teachers was to educate. Yes. Now teachers are expected to be psychologists, OT's, pediatricians, conflict resolution experts, everything. So, society's expectations of them has increased. Um, and the pressures they're under is huge. It is not uncommon as well for a teacher to start crying when I'm with them at talking about their students because of the pressures they're under. A lot of teachers ask me if there's if I have any jobs that they can
Are you seeing a difference in the teachers at a private school versus a public school? Is it worse at one or the other or is it just different?
It's just different. I think there the stresses they're under is really different. I I see at private schools they have a bit more capacity. Um, they've got more teaching staff where the public schools they're just they're at their wits end. Sure. Sure. And that discipline part is challenging in the public school where there's no real threat that they're going to be kicked out so much. Whereas in the private school there's a bit more of a threat. Parents may be a little bit more involved and that ability to really I'm going to call you parents. Whereas when they lose that ability to go to somewhere higher, how do they control the class and not take that personally? And so what we try and do is actually say the main stakeholders in what school culture looks like isn't the teachers or the parents, but it's the students themselves. Yeah. So the research actually shows us that students are considerably more likely to engage in behavior change programs when it's delivered by their peers than when it's delivered by us. Yeah.
Because did you guys see adolescence? Yes. Yes. So I could I made it to episode 3. I kept crying. It was too full on. But there's this moment in the second episode. I don't know if you remember, but when um the dad the boy says to the dad, you're you're just not seeing it. You don't really understand what's going on here. And that's what our program is about. Yeah, it's about asking the students, what are you experiencing and how can we help you to make that change and taking some of that responsibility away from teachers?
I think that's huge because I remember going to school and I wasn't spoke I wasn't uh in a discussion. I was spoken too. Yeah. We're going to go on this page and we're going to do this. We're going to do this and and like like don't speak up cuz I couldn't keep up, you know. But it wasn't there wasn't this dialogue backwards and forwards. There wasn't, and I'm not I'm not like soft or like a needy person, but like I saw a kid, ironically, on social media lashed out at a at a teacher saying, "You you know, you you want respect and you want you have to have a conversation with us. You have and the kid was like lashing out, but what he was saying was so on point." Yeah. It was, you're telling us to do this stuff, but you're not understanding how to communicate with us, and you're not do and was he wasn't violent. He's like, "I'm out. I can't do this anymore. I just don't feel heard. I don't feel like you understand. You're just running through your curriculum and the teacher's like, "Get out." And all the rest of it. Yeah. But the kid was actually on point. And I actually I don't know if I feel like that as a kid, but I can only imagine if we're not having conversations that have this feedback loop and teachers are delivering curriculum and saying you have to, you know, and rope learning for maybe or textbook learning or whatever the case may be. and they're not actually going backwards and forwards. We're missing out on so much.
And we we are that one of the reasons why I developed the program is because I was bullied really badly as a kid. So, you know, I didn't have any friends. I was called names. I looked a little bit different to the other kids. Um, and I was terrified. Like, I absolutely terrified. I would hide at lunchtime. I didn't know what to do. And I went to, so I went to my grandma because I live with my grandma and my mom and my sisters. Went to my grandma and said, "I'm being bullied really badly. What should I do?" She said, "What I want you to do is go up to the bully and hit him." And I was like, "Right, I've got this." So, built up my courage. Next time it happened, went up, tried to hit the bully, but he hit me back really, really badly. From memory, I ended up in hospital from it. So then I was like, "Well, that's obviously not the solution for me." So I went to my mom and said, "Mom, been bullied." And she said, "What we're going to do is send you to the doctor." And I was just thinking, "But this isn't my fault, is it?" Which is the way back then we used to frame bullying. So I went to the doctor and I remember to this day crystal clear. I was sitting like this and it was a psychologist and he said, "What I want you to do, Zach, is go up to that wall and bully that wall." And I just remember thinking, "That is the most stupid thing I've ever heard, but I'll do it." Cuz I was desperate. So I went up to the ball, start wall, started bullying it, and then just sat down at out of just embarrassment. And the doctor looked at me and said, "See what happens when you ignore the bully? The bully goes away." Wow. And I was just like, "Dude, you're just not getting it. You You're not getting it. You're not listening to me or valuing my perspective." And that's what I try now is to really listen to young people and value their input and their capacity for change while also taking some of that responsibility of parents and teachers, building their capacity up to better support these young people. Um, but I think we need to fundamentally change the way we frame bullying in our classrooms and the education system.
Yeah, I I fully agree. Important. Absolutely. Um, while you were talking um I was reminded of two ears, one mouth. Uh, which is listen twice as much as you speak. Yeah. Is a theory that I've tried to apply across my world in business. Right. Yeah. Because if you listen to the customer, the answers are going to be there. Yeah. And the customer's like, "Wow, how did you know?" Yeah. But I think that in this context, I think that it's um it's really important. Um and while you were talking, you know what struck me? I I I sat with a guy who who's awesome. I actually met him during co he was you were doing a lot of um a lot of posting about lockdowns and laws and stuff like that. and I asked him to come to Cubes and like just say thank you because actually he was when he put out his daily post, it sort of helped me get through my day. Yeah. Um and I sat with him and he said, you know, um you know what's crazy, Toby? I don't know how we got onto this topic. He's like, "I was parented by my parents who were parented from my parents' parents and my parents' parents were born in the 1800s and it's 2000. It's we're like early 2000s here. The world has changed yet that hasn't changed." Yeah. And so I'm like parenting my kids off 150y old's um way of what I what my parents learned and my parents parents learned and all the rest of it and and the notion of like um going and and bully the wall and not listening and not understanding. Like part of me is like wow that's like really disappointing but at the same time it's like who did they learn from? How did they learn? And how is that how is that outdated where we are in this world today? Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I think parents are under so much stress. I know as a parent I am. You know, you you never know where to go to or where to turn to. You see a 10-second Tik Tok thing that you think might be helpful, so you save it for later. You know, there's very few resources that are evidence informed that communicate it clearly about how you do support young people. Yeah. Um, I was talking to a parent just the other day and they were in tears saying, "My daughter's been bullied. I I don't know what to do." Um, because there's a lack of resources out there to to support them. Yeah. And we You're right, Tobies. We go off what our parents taught us. Whose parents taught them whose parents taught them in a world that is moving at such a fast pace because of all our connectivity. Yeah. Yeah. like you've you know this is not a new saying but like we've never been more connected yet more disconnected completely or more confused and and how and how does like my parents parents parents parents words of wisdoms play true to today and like I see with my father-in-law he's like you might be fancy with your tech and you're this and that he goes but the fundamentals of business haven't changed I was like the pace has and so the pace is a whole different level of fitness um but you know but the world has changed and some of that old stuff which is really really important from values and kindness and listening and sharing and caring like all of that is really important but how does that get applied today if it's not on social media and that's where people are learning or it's just it's it's not applicable but it's not applicable in this world yeah from back there and so I think the work that you're doing is fantastic I want to link all of the details of where we can find you how we can connect with you. How schools, you know, there might be teachers listening today, there might be principles, there might be parents association, council representatives, like I want you guys to seriously click on the show notes below. Uh, reach out. Um, this is not happening in someone else's neighborhood at someone else's school. This is happening in our own backyard. It is happening everywhere. And if you're not recognizing that, you're not having a real conversations with your kids. And and and there's no need to point fingers because I don't think that a fireman doesn't fight fire with fire. Sometimes he does. Most of the time it's fire with water. Yeah. And we actually have to also recognize that sometimes the other team didn't win, we lose. And if we can't lean in hard, which is a huge value that I impress upon my team, then there's going to be problems. And they're not distant. They're not happening in, you know, New York. Maybe they are, but they're happening here in your local neighborhood. And I think the work that you're doing is really powerful. I could speak to you all day about it. Thank you. I think it's really, really important that we lean in here, guys. So, after the break, uh, we'll hear from Luna, but after the break, Kate and I will come back, digest, and if you can click on the link, uh, in the show notes, uh, it'll take you straight to where you need to go.
We are luna.co. Co. is a great place for you and your business to start off with phenomenal accounting and legal services. So if you're a startup or a scaleup looking for legal and finance support or alternatively looking to raise capital, we are luna.co is where you need to be starting off.
Okay, skater. So good. So empowering and I think it's just something that's not being talked about enough. Um, as we expressed as parents, we don't know where to go, what to do. Yeah. So, how would teachers know? How do the kids know? And if you are an entrepreneur, because we do attract entrepreneurs to this show. Yeah. And you've thrown away the manual. Um, perhaps you can get the short notes very quickly from the links in in the show notes. Absolutely. Uh, really, really important. I pride myself on being a very present father, a very present husband. Um, and my kids are going through this. Yeah. So, it's not like it's happened to someone else's kid. I'm like very strong with my kids in as much as like I used before that bumper ball analogy like they will never fall in the gutter. They will never get hurt. They'll never get but I'll let them lean out there and feel the heat for a minute because I think that that's important but they're safe with me as a parent. Yes. Um, but I recognize that not everyone's like that. Okay. I love Sims initiative of getting the parents together just to to chat so the other parents know what's going on cuz it's hard if you just get a text message from one parent and you're kind of doing this texting thing without any context. It's good to put it out in the open. What was really powerful about that and she said it in passing this morning um like it was like a nothing conversation but it was like I walked away I was like you know really drove drove the car here thinking about it. So, she reached out to I want to say five Yeah. mothers. Yeah. Three of the mothers came back and said, "Actually, my daughter's feeling the same way, and you know, I've been speaking to her about this. I didn't realize was going on in your house as well." And two of the mothers wrote back and said, "Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. My daughter uh doesn't actually tell me anything. So, happy to jump on the call, but like this is all news to me." Yeah. So, I mean, just at a small sample size, two out of five people are disconnected. Three out of three out of five were engaged but actually didn't know how to take or didn't take the next step to sort of like hey is this also happening in your world. Um, and I think biasly it took a special person to sort of try and connect all those dots but it doesn't happen naturally I think is my point and I think that what uh Dr. Zach's doing here um give people the tools. Yeah and help them through and there's no shame. Yeah. So lean in guys in the show notes. Kate, thank you very much.
Thanks Toby. See you soon.