Oprah and Kristin Cabot in an Exclusive Interview about the Coldplay Kiss Cam

Hi there and thank you for joining me here on the Opert podcast. My guest today is Kristen Kat. And while you may not recognize her name, I am guessing that you will recognize her face from the most viewed video of 2025. The so-called coalplay kiss cam.

Either they're having an affair or we have this very shot. >> This would be the only on camera interview that you're planning to give. Why did you decide to be here today? >> So, Coleplay's Kiss Cam just broke the internet. You've seen this video, right? >> Uh 1,000 times. >> Yes, I think everyone has seen it. >> Take us back to the night of the Coldplay concert. Growing fallout from the kiss cam moment seen around the world sparking dozens of memes and videos. >> It is crazy how big this is. >> That was the first time you all had physically touched. That's what you said to us earlier. You hadn't even touched. >> This has captured my imagination so much. I have been watching it like if it was porn over and over and over again. >> I did not know the crucial part of that story that was missing from all of the Tik Toks. I'm going to let you share that. Sometimes people call just to harass her and call her a home wrecker. >> Do Do you still talk to Andy Byron, your former boss? >> Death threats. Who Who's sending death threats over this? >> Why do you think there was so much hate?

Either they're having an affair or it is very shy. >> Has been watched 300 billion times. Doesn't that shock you? It shocked me. And when I was told I Your mouth is open. That's exactly That's exactly what I did. When I was told it had been watched 300 billion times, I said, "How is that possible? There's only 8 billion of us on the planet." Well, it's because people watched it over and over and over. It was made into countless Tik Tok memes and recreated at sporting events and concerts around the world. And in just 15 seconds of footage, Kristen found herself in the eye of a public spectacle, a storm that swept the internet in a matter of hours. And she is the woman seen on the jumbotron at a Coldplay concert in Boston in the arms of her boss and CEO Andy Byron. And Kristen was the head of HR. And for Kristen, those uh 15 viral seconds, really 15 viral seconds opened up an unstoppable floodgate of people mocking her, vitriol, and even death threats. And this past December, she first broke her silence to Lisa Miller of the New York Times, and the headline read, "The ritual shaming of the woman at the Coldplay concert." Kristen Kat, welcome. Thank you for agreeing to do this. >> Thank you for joining. >> Thank you.

So, after reading Lisa Miller's article, I asked my team to to reach out to you and you were hesitant, but then uh we had a conversation on Zoom. Yeah. >> And you decided that this would be the only on camera interview that you're planning to give. Why did you decide to be here today? >> Yeah. First, I want to thank you for having me. Um I I was reluctant to come, but I'm really grateful to be here. For me, my mom always taught us silence is acceptance. I think I mentioned that in the article. Um and for me and my family, what happened was not okay. And I felt like by remaining silent, it was somehow accepting what had happened. Um, and I really felt also there's a lot of people out there that experienced something similar that didn't either have the strength to come forward or were too traumatized or lost their lives due to some of the things I experienced. And I feel a sense of responsibility for those people to speak out and share what it's really like when people carelessly comment, forward, click, like, and the damage that it can really do.

So yes, you and I spoke on Zoom. I said, first of all, before the story and the times, I didn't know the story. I I was like everybody else. I didn't watch it hundreds of times or even more than once. But I made the judgment that you had made a mistake and you're out with your boss. >> And I did not know the crucial part of that story that was left missing from all of the Tik Toks that were shared. Uh I'm going to let let you share that. So, take us back to the to to the night of the Coldplay concert and the decision to go to the Coldplay concert. >> Yeah, it's a great question. Um, so, uh, I had been going through I'll go a little bit before that. That's okay.

So, maybe four or six weeks prior to the Coldplay concert. Um, my husband and I had decided to separate and were living apart and planning for a divorce. And um Andy Byron, my boss at the time, he and I um had a very close working relationship. For anyone that's worked in tech in a high growth startup, they'll understand that the chief people officer and the CEO are partners. We work side by side around the clock. It was a it was a a high growth startup that was growing at 100% year-over-year. We were hiring like crazy. Um and so we were really in it um together and spent a ton of time together. And it was >> yeah it was about it was about around the time that Andrew and I uh my husband had separated and andy the same name so forgive me try to keep up here. Um Andy and I um had gone out to grab sandwiches during the workday and he he asked me I seemed a little off and he just said what's going on and I said well my my husband and I are separating and planning a divorce and um he immediately let me know that he was in the exact same situation that he and his wife were living apart. they were planning for a divorce and it had been uh many years in the making.

So that became like a really instant kind of point of connection for us and >> over the next you know few weeks to month that was a place that was really great for me to be able to go to talk about what I was going through and I was a good safe space for him. >> Um and I think probably my friends >> did you both talk about what it was like going through the separation? that was where we we started to build a bit of a stronger connection and I you know I was really surprised when he told me um I just we didn't talk a lot about our personal lives prior to that so I didn't expect to hear that from him right >> um he had been married a long time so I just assumed all was well so we >> leading up to the concert like at that point we started talking a lot more about personal things and kids and how it's going and all of that >> in addition to the busy and frequent work conversations and >> were you having more lunches was it becoming Yeah. Yes, we were. We It just felt like a really familiar like safe place to talk about what was going on. And it's so much easier when someone else is in it in the same experience. We could share that. So, so we developed feelings for each other during that time.

Okay. Yeah. Were you attracted to each other? >> Yes. >> Yes. Absolutely. Um and that's why like you know when people would say oh they didn't look like friends on the video like that was the culmination point of feelings that had developed over the course of you know four to six weeks I would say.

Okay. So when we spoke over Zoom you said that was the first time you all had done anything >> publicly. That's the first time you actually shared any kind of >> physical touch physical touch. >> Yeah. Yes. So >> at the Coldplay concert first time it touched you. >> Yes. I'll explain. I'll explain. I'm I'm here to share what really happened. So >> Okay. I know. I know. There's a lot of there's a lot of context there. So, um I had friends that had gotten tickets to the show. >> They asked if I wanted to join. They had two extra seats. I never go out, so it's kind of a joke amongst my friends, let alone on a week night. Um usually with my kids or I'm working and I had just gone through a pretty tough period and I was like, you know what, it's summer. It's a week night. Like, I'm gonna go see I love Cold Play. I'm gonna go or I loved Cold Play, but that kind of got ruined for me. I'll be honest. Like, not the biggest fan anymore. Um, but and it was it was like such a no-brainer to invite Andy. We just we we when I say we would talk like 10 times a day, that was even before this connection started. It's just the nature of our job and our working relationship. Plus, we were, you know, enjoying spending time together. And it just seemed like we've been >> I just want to be clear, what time had you spent together before? >> Lunches. We would lunches at work. I live >> So, everything had been business up until the Coldplay concert. >> Yes. Yes. Absolutely. though we had had a lot of personal conversations and had acknowledged that we had feelings for each other.

Okay. >> Also, it was becoming apparent to me that we were putting ourselves in a situation where it was going to get risky from a work standpoint. I mean, I reported to him it's, you know, it's my role is to actually like be aware of those things happening at work and flagging when it might cause Yeah. a problem.

So, was there I always say that there's a whisper and then there's a pebble and a brick and a brick. Was there a little whisper saying we should tell somebody or we should? >> It was more than a whisper. It was like a real conversation where we sat down and said like we have to figure out a plan for this because we're these feelings are real. This wasn't like a fleeting thing. And >> we decided that we put kind of a plan together, but we wanted to propose to our board of directors that would change the reporting structure. >> Didn't you tell me that you were thinking about going to the board or you all were going to go to the board? We ironically met probably uh five or six days before the concert. We had we had a lunch that was a lengthy lunch to talk about this and to make a plan. >> Um and >> the plan was to go to the board. >> Go to the board and let them know that we had developed feelings for one another and that we wanted to change >> it was consensual. >> It was consensual and which is an important point 100%. And we wanted to propose a plan for what might work to make, you know, take this reporting line out of the equation. >> Meaning you reporting to him, >> meaning no longer reporting to him, perhaps reporting to one of our investors, something like that.

All right, that makes sense. >> Um, seemed like it made sense at the time. Felt it felt like the right thing to do. Um, and >> yeah, and then I got the invitation to Coldplay. I invited him to come. Um, it was sort of a non-decision. It was just kind of like, hey, we got tickets. Do you want to come? And he's like, great, let's go. And I thought, you know, we've we've kept it. >> Why didn't you ask one of your girlfriends? >> Well, I was already going with my two best friends who may or may not be in the audience right now. They were um one of them was already going and the other one is the one that offered me the tickets. >> Okay. Yeah. >> And it just he's the one I wanted to hang out with. We had a blast together. >> Okay. >> Um and we've been keeping it together. Like I I can go to work and be normal. I can go to a concert and be normal until I couldn't obviously. Um but it was just um it seemed like a fun plan.

Got it. So he said yes obviously >> and this was the first time >> you all had done something socially other than meeting for lunches and discussing business >> grabbing like drinks after work with colleagues and things like that. Yeah.

So you get to the concert and what happened? Well, I was walking into the concert and my daughter messaged me and said, "Oh, it's so great that you and Andrew were both at Coldplay." So, she let me know that my aranged husband was also at the concert. >> So, I think it's very important. This is what I did not know before the story and y'all can obviously didn't know either that she was separated from her husband and that her boss was also separated or said he was separated from his wife. Did you all know that? >> No. >> Okay. >> All right. Or that or that her husband was there. >> This is the this is the thing. So you get texted you get texted from one of your children. >> Yeah. My daughter was like this is so fun. Great. I was like And in my mind I thought, well that's is this going to be weird if he sees me with Andy. Like that cross or >> you run into him. >> Yeah. If I run into him. But then I was like I'm in Gillette Stadium. There's 55,000 people here. I'm probably not going to run into him.

But doesn't m I mean that would have been better at the end of the day if I just run into him. Um but >> it's you know he knows he knows how closely Andy and I work together. He knows we social and got lunches and drinks. It it was fine. >> So he knew that there was a relationship there. He just >> He knows the nature of my work and the way the rel shared desks with the CEOs I've worked with. Like it's just a very close and so it didn't matter to me at all.

Okay. I got to get to the moment. You all hadn't touched you. That's what you said to us earlier. You hadn't even touched. >> Well, we did that evening before we got I mean we started to touch before it was on camera, but that Yeah. >> Okay. But that was the first time you all had physically touched. >> Correct. Correct. Correct. >> Other than like a, you know, tap, you know, when you're chatting with someone and you >> Okay. Yeah. >> So, what made you do it then? >> I had a really big crush on him, Oprah. And so did he. I mean, we these these were like really >> incredible feelings. And I don't know women that could relate to this, but I had been going through a really tough time. I was coming out of a separation and it felt really good to get attention and affection from an awesome man. You know, it felt good. You're leaving out a key point here that you shared with me on the Zoom high noon. >> I would love to talk about the high noon. Yeah. Can we can we take a moment? >> Look, look at Gail going, "What is that?" >> Gail Gail is Gail has never drank anything other than uh what >> I like a good Shirley tail. >> Oh, she likes a good Shirley tail. So, she just looked I saw you look what is a high noon. >> I want to talk about the high nudes because that became a big big topic on the internet for some reason. I told Lisa Miller in the New York Times article that, you know, I'd had a couple of high noons and we were dancing and we got swept up. >> All you need is a couple. >> I only had two. So, >> well, I mean, two that make you feel like Gail used Gail used to ask me all the time, I see you getting yourself all liquored up. What does it do for you? >> I'm not getting liquored up, Gail. It's just a vodka tonic. Okay. So, it does make you Gail. Alcohol makes you feel a little looser. >> Whiskey. Frisky. Not not even frisky. It's just it's just a little looser. >> Yeah. A little looser. And my only Yeah. My only point in mentioning it to Lisa Miller, had I known what would have happened that you know, because suddenly I'm blaming it on alcohol and suddenly none of that is true. I simply mentioned it to like set the tone of the vibe. Like you're at a concert, it's summer, a couple high noons, you're dancing, you're having fun. Everybody maybe except for you, Gail, has done that and knows what I mean. Like it's a good it's just an easy like a fun feeling. And that's that was the vibe that that we had and that's why I shared it. And by the way, I think >> Will said, "Do you have a lemonade with with and could you add a dash of cranberry juice?" >> Yeah. So wild. >> So a couple of high noon. You're feeling really great and you're at a concert and you love Cold Play and everything's going well. >> It felt really good. >> Yes. >> It also I should note it felt really anonymous and I feel like I need to explain that too because it didn't look that way on the video. where we were was at the complete opposite end of Gillette Stadium from the stage. We were in an area called um I think it was called the pavilion, but it's a big general it's a it's a sectioned off area where there's no seats. It's general admission in this section and it holds about 250 people. So, we were in that area and we were kind of up at the front of the near the railing, but we were with a like with a group and with friends. So, we were dancing and talking and it was really dark and it just we got very swept up and it didn't feel in any way that we were risking being and it wasn't even calculated where we thought to ourselves like, "Oh, no one's looking. Let's like put our hands on each other." It wasn't that. It was just it just was a natural.

Okay. So, let's go to that moment that we have all seen. Have you all seen it? >> Okay. Let's go to the moment we've all seen. So, you're swaying. I don't even remember the song. Do you? Yes. >> What was the song? >> Yellow. >> Okay. You're get That's >> Gail. Love >> yellow. >> I used to love yellow. Gail yellow. >> So you're swaying to the song and then you suddenly see yourself on the jambatron. You turned around. >> He ducked. >> Okay. So you see yourself. Take us to that moment. >> Yeah. That was a moment of total horror is really the best way I can describe it. My immediate thought was, "Oh my god, my husband's in the building." Um, he he was there with someone else and I knew that and that is that was great and fine. But he and I were in the midst of our separation, incredibly amicable. Like to this day, he's been the one of the biggest supporters of me through all of this. He's an incredible man.

And the last thing I wanted to do was embarrass him. And that was my first thought when I saw myself in that in that um moment. Isn't there an instance when you're looking at yourself uh on the jumbotron because I remember Gail and I had gone to an event Gail Maria Shrivever and I and for the Pope and there's uh Gail on the remember you saw yourself and you said who's that redhaired woman and I go that red-haired black woman that would be you and so is there a moment when you say to yourself oh my god >> that's me >> yes yeah There was like a split second where it was like almost I mean to me it's like surreal. I can't even really remember but I I do remember looking and being like oh my god like I said worse than that I mean in my head but my initial thought was oh my god Andrew is here and my second thought was oh my god I'm in the arms of my boss and I'm the head of HR like this is a really bad look. >> Yeah. >> Everybody assumed I was horrified because it meant somehow I got busted having an affair. Like that is not what was happening. I felt like those two reasons were big enough for me in that moment to be really horrified.

Did you even hear >> No. So, I wanted to share that too. So, we were all like dancing and you know when there's music playing, you're talking, you're kind of whispering in people's ears or yelling in their ears. We were talking and um with my friends too and we didn't hear Chris Martin say we're going to pan the audience. Like we never heard him warned that he was doing that and we never heard him say they must be shy or they're having an affair. I had no idea he said that until like days later >> um or the next day. I don't remember from it was a blur after that night, but I didn't know that at all. I whipped around like Oprah, if we were at a Celtics game and we got put on the jumbotron, I'm going to whip around. I'm not a jumbotron girl. Even on my best days, it's not my thing. So, I would have probably done some version of that. But in that moment, >> I was just horrified at >> and your first thought was Andrew, your husband >> and my job and your job. >> Yeah. And on and the ir irony of the whole thing or the naive of the whole thing is the entire ride home we were in an SUV with a few a few group of us. I was all I was worried about was Andrew. I kept saying maybe he left early, maybe he didn't see it. That was what I thought was the biggest problem I had on my hands. >> Why were you worried if you were already separated? >> Because we were in the middle of going through our divorce planning and he it was going really we were doing it in a really amicable way. >> He was there with somebody. >> He was there with somebody. But I didn't. Andrew comes from an incredibly private family um in the Boston area and I just knew in my head like the public embarrassment is not something that would have gone over well.

Okay. So your first thought was Andrew. What did you all do immediately afterwards? So you turned around and >> Andy Byron ducked, your boss at the time ducked. Yes. >> And then did you all immediately leave this? >> Yeah. So he and I left um the area the general admission area behind that had indoors had like a bar area and some like tables set up. >> Did you leave with your friends or did you >> No, he and I left the standing room area went through the doors and sat down at one of those tables and we're just like what just happened? Okay, what is going what could this what is going to happen and or what what is what happened? Yeah, I don't know how to explain. And that's when I was like oh my god Andrew you know he was going through his head of what he was worried about. I was thinking about my stuff and then the it was really towards the end of the concert and in about a the end of that song I think my friends came through the door and they're like let's just get out of here and so we all left the stadium >> and what were they thinking? >> They were just like oh my god I cannot believe this is like getting struck by lightning. How did this even how on earth and I can't believe that just h happened to you. That's like the worst luck. And then we were in the elevator heading down and a woman in the elevator was like, "Wait, was that you on the jumbotron?" And I was like, "No." And then my friend Elena looked at me and was like, "Is that what we're saying? Like are we we're saying no that wasn't you?" Like what? So we should we huddle up on this? Like I But we just didn't know what we had no concept that this was >> Okay. So you were worried about your your husband who you're separating from. Yes. >> And the woman that he's there. >> I wasn't really worried about that. And I was just I didn't want to embarrass him about your husband. You worried about your husband that you are now separated from. >> Was he worried about anything? >> No. You mean do you mean >> Andy Andy Andy Byron? >> Oh yes. >> What did he say he was worried about? >> I mean I don't want to speak for him, but I I think you know we live in that area. I think you know he's going through his own separation and divorce. I think he's not looking to embarass your boss. That was the other big I mean it's it's really not it's really bad in our roles to have been caught in that position.

Yeah. And that was, you know, we live, we do live in the area, the company was based in New York, but we've both had 25 or so, 30 years in our career in that area. And >> the one thing I want to share with you all, when I had I had only one other conversation with Kristen um on Zoom uh prior to this interview a couple months ago now, >> and the one thing that I appreciated in that conversation, which you can share here, is that you kept saying, "I made a mistake. >> It was a mistake. I shouldn't have been out with my boss, but it wasn't a mistake that I deserved to die for. Correct. It wasn't a mistake that I deserved to have people coming up to me on the street and saying I should die because of it. It wasn't a mistake that deserved people threatening me and threatening my children. It was a mistake. >> So, >> that's what you told me. Do you still feel that that it was a mistake? >> Absolutely. and I've been telling anyone that will listen. You know, I I own the poor decision that I made in that moment. And >> I've paid a unimaginable price for that. Um I also, you know, that was why I chose to leave my job because I think I put the company in a position given how viral and toxic this became a position you can't come back from.

Okay. So, let's go back to it. So, just walk us through it. You all leave. You're like, "What just happened?" >> And then what happened? So we all piled into a SUV we had all ridden together and there were six of us and I mean it was a pretty tense car ride home but it was I was hand ringing over >> my Andrew seat I mean it was just ridiculous looking at it now what I was most worried about. Um Andy was pretty quiet in the car. >> Yeah. >> Um and our friends nobody nobody thought it was like oh that was such bad luck. Like hopefully no one really saw you.

Okay. So tell tell everybody you get home and you thinking >> we're going to tell the board tomorrow. We're going to go to the board and tell them. >> So you all come Didn't you come up with my apartmenty did? Yes. >> And we were like we have to >> come up with a statement. >> We have to talk to the board immediately. >> Yeah. Did you come up with a statement? >> No. We we um drafted an email to together to send to the board from both of us to say we need to speak very first thing in the morning. Most of our board actually all all but one on the west coast. So, we wanted to make sure they woke >> drafted an email to send to the board. >> That's right. >> And then you go home and you >> go to sleep. >> Go to sleep. And >> again, not >> really >> thinking Yeah. >> And in the middle of the night, >> in the middle of the night, I got a message from Andrew, um, my husband. I feel like I need to keep qualifying because they're the same. Um, and he sent me a text with a snapshot of a Tik Tok of the Tik Tok video and said, "I you need to basically I don't remember the exact words, but it was like there's like Houston, we have a problem here, you know." Um, and he really wanted to get to me so I could get to my kids before they who were teenagers before they woke up and got on their phones and saw it.

Right. So, your teenagers are not his children, >> correct? >> Yes. But the your children have a great relationship with him. >> Incredible. >> Yeah. Cuz you all had been married how many years? >> Less than two years. Um, we met during co and he immediately built an incredible bond with my kids and they're they're very close still today.

Okay. So, how did you find out that the video had blown up the internet? >> I'm trying to remember. It's like such a wild that next day was so hard. Um, >> so when Andrew calls you and says >> we have there's like this is happening on TikTok. I'm not on any of those apps. So, I didn't see it. I couldn't see it personally. I had no sense for it initially personally. Um I don't I've never had TikTok or anything like that, but he he let me know. >> You didn't know what it was. >> Yeah. And then in the morning by 7 or 8 a.m. >> Can you all imagine this? >> Can you imagine? >> It just my phone started, you know, a lot of phone calls started coming in from my friends. All my close friends were just like, "We, you know, this is something's going on here." And it I can't I wish I could remember how long it took from being kind of a problem to like realizing it was >> no need to hit send to the board. >> Yeah. Well, we did we did have a call with the board immediately. Um and they had already heard about it at that point. Um but we had they were they were actually really understanding and we had a really good conversation about it and they were very um >> he resigned. >> He hadn't resigned yet. He did that a few days later. Okay. Um, >> and then did they offered you they they wanted you to stay? >> Yes. Yes. >> They wanted you to stay. >> Yes, they did. >> How are you going to stay? >> Well, that's the pro. I mean, that was the conversation I had with them. Had it not gone so viral and gotten so toxic, I would have gone back in and taken the punch and stood up in front of the company and said, "I'm, you know, I'm a human. I made a really poor choice, but we're building something incredible. I'm like, let's get back to it."

Um, and hope that they would be okay with that. But I had I that was not an option. Um, I did not feel like I could go in and say, "Hey everybody, like, do as I say, but not as I do." And I felt like it would put everybody in such a bad situation and it just wasn't fair to the employees. Um, I appreciated that the board was behind me and I appreciated they did go through an HR investigation and it yielded nothing and I appreciated that at least internally there I got that um that support >> but it wasn't viable. It wasn't fair to ask the employees of >> So why do you think that this went off like a like a bomb? Was it Chris Martin's comments in that moment that maybe you were having an affair? Was it the fact that Andy Byron duck or that you turned around? Was it that he was the CEO and you're the head of HR? What is it? What >> I think it was a I thought a lot about that. I think it was a whole combination. It was a combination of all of those things. I felt in the in the initial moments, I'm sure it was funny to people, you know, I can appreciate that. I've certainly seen funny things online and forwarded them around and clicked on them. I just don't think people think people really stop and think about there's real humans behind this. There's a life there >> and it is incredibly um destructive. Um and and I I you know, listen, I've I've seen funny things in sentiment round too, probably not giving it a ton of thought before this happened. I'm very thinking very differently now than I was. Um, but I think people thought it was funny. I think our world is, you know, news is a really sad thing to watch. I think we are constantly inundated with bad news.

I've heard some people say that that video seen 300 billion times by only 8 billion people on the on the planet was the thing that united people, that people were united in their judgment. >> And I feel bad for us as human beings that that's what we did to you. >> Thank you. We were all united in the judgment of whatever it is you were doing, you shouldn't have been doing it. And we could all actually agree on that >> without knowing the story behind the story. >> And I heard that there were people that advised you that everything would blow over in 3 days. Who the hell told you that? I wish I could say because you'd all be shocked, but it's is a very prominent person in public relations that I spoke to that that said to me, you have triggered such an avalanche of hate for whatever reason that people are not going to be open to hearing from you right now. They're not going to believe what you say. Your best bet is to stay quiet, keep your head down, and then let some time pass and then speak up. And I I this is not my world. I don't know. And I I really believed what she said, and I I guess it makes sense. >> I could tell that there was so much hate. I I thought maybe this maybe that is better. >> Why do you think there was so much hate? >> That's been one of the hardest things for me to reconcile because none of the pe nobody knows me. Those nobody that judged this knows me. So it wasn't me. Um you know it was I think it was Listen, I think a lot of people have had not great interactions with HR. I think there's some piece of it that's like stick it to the HR lady. Like I get it. Um that's kind of funny. I think, you know, it was incredibly cliche on every level, like the CEO and the chief people officer. And I think, you know, I don't know. I just think people hurt people hurt people. And I think, >> well, there's a lot of hurt people 300 billion times. So, the New York Times wrote that she's been called, the quote, she's been called a [ __ ] >> a home wrecker, >> a gold digger, a side piece. The usual tags for shaming women is what Lisa Miller wrote. And you told me that you believe that women are apt to quote, eat each other alive, >> and that most of your criticism has actually come from other women. that other women are the only ones who dare to come up to your face and say horrible things. >> That's right. Yeah, >> that's right. That was for me, I think, one of other than obviously my concern for what my kids experience, that was to me the most upsetting piece of all of this was >> I had no idea how how unwell we are as a gender still. Um, I think I I was living in a really lovely naive bubble in some ways where I have surrounded myself with and am so fortunate to be surrounded by incredible women >> that support have supported me, you know, through thick and thin. I do the same for them. And I I I don't know women that tear each other down. That's not been my own experience. and at work like I've been really intentional about the women that work with and for me like bringing them along in their career, giving opportunity, mentoring and helping them. Um, it's just not it was such a shock to me. I think I was told that 90% of the online comments and hate came from women. Every single interaction I had in person and there were many were all women like you said. you know, uh, since we had our conversation, I was thinking about this. Um, and I say this, you know, not just because Gail is here, but it's pretty publicly known that Gail went through a divorce and her husband had an affair. And Gail always says that there is a lot of members of that club. There's a lot of women who are a part of that club of uh who w with partners who betrayed them with other women. And I think that for a lot of women, you became the face of that. Do you all think that that you became the face of the woman who took my husband? The woman who would take my husband, the woman who That's where the hate was coming from. And I also think that if you look differently, you would have probably had another outcome. You know, I think you are the blonde ideal, the girl next door, the all all of that. Am I am I being truthful here or what? I think it's I think it's the whole package. It's not one thing. It's everything. >> I do think there was something people attached to me that triggered things within themselves. I I don't think, you know, now that I sit here, I don't think they don't know me. It can't really be me, but it's something I represent. And I >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. I I think that, you know, I think about my own triggers and things that are like unhealed inside of me. I try to think of like what's what makes me feel a certain way or what it's my own fears that are that are not quite healed. I think when I >> So the question is did he get the same kind of vitrial Andy Byron your boss did people were people coming up to him for >> No at all. >> Attacking him attacking his children? >> No. Yeah. >> And I mean just thinking about you know starting from the very beginning I was every single part of my physical appearance was picked apart.

Um there were stories written about jewelry I was wearing and who bought it for me and how much it cost. when one of my best friends is a jewelry designer and I've bought everything for myself that that she made me and it's you know my hairdresser somebody found and that turned into a whole thing where she was dragged for giving me crappy root or crappy highlights and she got lit up for that and just everything about how I look to how I was dressed to how I behaved to you know the sleeping my way to the top to the gold digger to this you know all the words that Lisa used the husband stealer which by the way I just that expression really bugs me and I I'm not trying to make light obviously of adultery it's It's it's not that. But this notion of women stealing men, like I would walk in and duct tape and zip tie a guy and like unwittingly drag him out and steal. Like the man has no role in this. This is, >> you know, and for me, like I I was the face of all of this. There was no one talking about Andy's hair, shirt, watch. There was no one questioning in I mean, maybe anyone here can correct me. I never read or heard anything about, wow, did he become a CEO by sleeping his way to the top? >> No. And that's all anyone would say about me. It was unfathomable that I might have achieved and worked and hustled and built an a career I'm incredibly proud of. That was not on the table.

Your best friend, I heard told you that these people hated you before they even knew anything about you. >> Uh do you think that's true? What do you think that is? >> Yeah, I think that's what you touched on a few minutes ago. I think it's I've represented something for people that they were afraid of in that moment. And I I can have empathy for that. I think if you're going to snap to a judgment, you're going to have I don't have empathy for people snapping to a quick judgment and just assuming and using zero critical thinking skills, but I do have empathy or I do have understanding for why that would trigger people. Um, so I'm trying to >> cuz you look like you look. No, because I think you know I'm the way the story was narrated for me without my input was I'm you know having an affair with my boss and we're running around and we're on the company credit card buying to it's probably what a lot of women worry about when their husbands are out on you know I get that. I can understand that.

Yeah. So you share custody of your your two children with your first husband >> and how has this impacted your children? >> That's the this is the tough one. Um it's it's it was a nightmare. >> How old are your kids? >> They're almost 15 and almost 17. >> So they're at an age where every you know >> So they were 14 and 16 when they >> 14 and 16. >> We're still in it. Um they're really they're doing really well. Um >> tell us about the place. You went some You went someplace and your daughter said, "Mom, can we just leave because >> Yeah, we were at the the local pool. This was a few weeks after I decided it was probably in later August when I felt like safe to I tried tried to going out, you know, trying to go out. My daughter and I went to the pool, big hack glasses, all the things. And um a woman at the pool started taking our picture in a really not subtle way. And my daughter just she just lost it and she's like, "We need to just leave." And I was like, "I'm so sorry." I and I didn't, you know, I was not in a position. It's funny that the version of me before this concert, I would have marched right up to her and grabbed her. I mean, I'm not a shrinking violet, >> but in I became, you know, a very >> a different version of myself and I I just we packed up and left.

Do you think that you were taking on the guilt and shame that other people were trying to put on you? >> Um, yes and no. Um, I felt tremendous guilt for the effect it was having on my family and I felt responsible for that, but I did not I knew what really happened and I didn't feel shame for something I didn't do. Um, I wasn't questioning. I knew the mistake I made. I was really clear on what that was. But I was also really clear that it doesn't deserve the treatment that I got. It doesn't deserve, you know, being made to feel that you should die.

Can you share with us what those first um hours, days, and then weeks were like? I mean, how how low did you go? >> I I mean, yeah, those it was dark. Um, the first weekend after the concert, I I rented an Airbnb and went up to the mountains in New Hampshire with my dog thinking I was just going to let it blow over and come back. I really didn't understand cuz I I cut off all access to the internet and social media and everything. I did. I I went away thinking, oh, it was sort of like the beginning of co when you're like, we'll close the office for the week and we'll see you in a week and then you're like, see you in 2 years. It was sort of like that. I thought I'll just go disappear for the weekend. But when I came back, >> do a self-care day. >> I did. Yeah. I was like, I'm just going to regroup and relax and not >> You thought it would blow over in a few days as you had been told. >> As I've been told. >> Yes. >> Um that definitely didn't happen. But I I came back to my house that had was a place that was really like my safe space as your home home typically is >> and it became a place that was as unsafe as any place could

be because a local radio station gave out my address on the air. Um, and for whatever reason, the whole world has access to my phone number. And I guess that I don't know how people do that, but so from that day I returned, there was well, there was paparazzi there for weeks. They wouldn't leave.

Um, there was I had people trespassing and looking in my windows. We had people doing drivebys and yelling and honking. Um, we had my phone with your children home. Yes. With my children home. my my phone was ringing around the clock and just vile text messages and voicemails. That's probably a couple days in when the death threats started, but they were also just perverse, disgusting messages. I've I got emails constantly.

Um, were you afraid? Were you scared? Yeah, I was really I was terrified. And your children were really scared because your children overheard you speaking to your mom. They did. And they heard one of the death threats. Um, I my kids asked me not to spend too much time talking about them today. Um, but I'm there's I'm comfortable talking about portions of it and that's one of them. They were terrified for me. Um, they're really protective of me, but they were also really scared for what this meant for all of us.

Um, we're not used to having We're really private. Like when your kids are hearing that you're getting death threats, kids think we're going to lose our mom. Yeah. Mhm. That's what kids think. Yeah. That's exactly what happened. think we're going to lose our mom. Then they have to now be afraid for you. That's right. That's right. And you know, I've been a single mom for a while and they I think already lean in to taking care of me more than I'd like them to do at their age. Like I've got it, you know, until I I'm good, but I they've always been they're really like sweet and um I don't know, empathic people. So they really like they're always kind of keeping an eye and making sure I'm okay. So this kind of elevated all of that, you know, in all this.

I mean, I every I think a lot of people at this point have experienced online vitriol or people saying horrible things and sometimes there's something that just is said and it it just it cuts you. Yeah. Especially if it's untrue. Do you have one of those moments where something is was said and it just like brought you to your knees or you made you not want to get out of bed or Yeah, it was. And there's actually a few um but the one that just came to mind first was was the piece around sleeping my way to the top at work.

I've spent I've worked in advertising and technology which are really male-dominated industries and I've spent my entire career fighting against the stereotype of you know I must be sleeping with someone or you know there's and I I've been so intentional about how I move through my work life. I've never been involved with anyone I've worked with before. Um, I've been working since I was 13 and you know, my mom had us out probably legally working early on and um, I never stopped and my career was my identity for better or worse and this has been a wakeup call around that. But that was my I had tremendous pride in what I had built. I I love what I do and for that to be a whole entire narrative to be written that takes that away from me um, felt it just gutted me in a way that I can't explain. And so it it was really that one. I think you know obviously being called all these horrible names is it hurts. Um I have a friend that said to me recently like why would you take criticism from people you would not take advice from? And that really hit home for me. Um and I thought about I'm like it's a great point. I don't but I did it's a great point but when you're in the middle of it it's hard to feel. That's right. And it hurts like the you know and it's easy to say oh ignore the trolls or ignore but it's really you know I mean you it's really hard to ignore that and it's it gets really personal.

Yeah. Where's your Did you have family that were there for you? Yeah. My family's incredible and I just you asked earlier like how how low did it get and and I do need to say that if I didn't have the family that I have and the friends that just wrapped a big warm blanket around me like I don't know that I would have made it through this. And had I been the 25-year-old version of myself, I would not be sitting here. There's no way. Yeah. It was really horrific cuz Yeah. When you hear the number, I think it was you who told me the 300 billion. When you hear the 300, how is that even? And by the way, that doesn't include social media. That's just the internet. How wild did it get on I don't know how wild it got on social, but I think it was wilder than just like, you know, different tabloid websites, but that 300 billion is on the websites alone. Yeah. That's really disturbing.

And so how did you get your children through it when there when your children when you become the meme and everybody knows it's your mom? Yeah. How did you how did you get them through that? It was tough. I mean we we had a lot of conversation in the beginning though. I mean I was I I I was not moming to the best of my abilities. It was I was pretty broken down. We had a for better or worse. We had a lot of family visiting last summer. I had a lot of people staying at my house. my brother and his family and um a lot of guests. So, I tried to kind of pivot to just like life as usual as best I could after maybe the first month. And we tried to just get back to it, like go to the beach, like try to do some normal things. Um it was hard because people were not shy to come up to me in front of my kids. And I had a group of women um that I was at my son's where he works. He works at a surf shop at the beach near our house. and a group of women surrounded my car and in front of my son and started to, you know, harass me verbally and um kind of make it hard for me to move my car away from where they were. Um and it it was it was hard to explain that to my kids. You know, they were they were really lucky to have their peers show up for them in a really supportive way, but they were struck by how horrific grown-ups were acting. And that's a really hard thing for me to explain to kids that you know why are why because I didn't even know do they even understand why yeah because how do you explain to them why the people are hating you so much right I tried to explain to them kind of what you described like I think I'm representative of something that touches a lot of fear in people I don't and I didn't know you know I was trying to figure it out myself and I wish I could have showed up for them in better ways than I did but I did the best I could do in in those moments I it was really hard going back to school for them was really hard. I they didn't want me on their campuses for the first semester or trimester. So, I missed, you know, I didn't go to games. I didn't go to parent conferences. I couldn't go to parents weekend at my son's school. Um, but the schools were wonderful. I worked with them closely to make sure the kids were supported. Um, and like I said, their friends were great.

Do you still talk to Andy Byron, your former boss? No, I I um ended communication with Andy in midfall. Mhm. Um there was a a big miss on honesty and integrity. Um I don't he didn't he wasn't the person he represented himself to be to me and lying is not a non-negotiable for me. What does that mean actually? It means I don't you know there was he missed the mark on being as honest as he could have been with me and at the end of the day Oprah like I was the one left you know he wasn't separated that because what you're implying to me what I'm hearing is that he really wasn't separated. Is that what you're trying to say? I want to be really careful because the world spoke for me and on my behalf and I don't want to do that to somebody else in their family. I don't feel comfortable. But I will say like a lot of what was represented to me was not true. Okay. Um I also want to say that being left but will you verify again as you said to us earlier that he had told you when you told him you were separated he had said to you he's going through the same unequivocally. Okay. Unequivocally. So you believed when you were standing with him at the coplay concert that he was separated? Absolutely. Zero doubt. Zero doubt. Um but I was left holding the bag. Um and I don't you know being the one that was attacked for this with you know he's remained silent. Um to me that's not a quality that I would look for in a friend or a partner or a boss. Um so we have no relationship. What would you have wanted him to do or say? I I mean the entire trajectory of this would have changed if he would have just made a quick statement to say my wife and I were separated at the time of the concert just like my husband did. But it didn't matter when you It was great that Andrew did that, but it also I was still left with you know, the tone change a little bit. Okay, so she was separated but he wasn't. So she's still a home wrecker. Okay. One moment and it's one moment and one splitsecond decision can change the trajectory of anybody's life.

Why do you you know I'm always whenever something particularly this big happens. I say what are you trying to teach me God? I know you didn't have to use this big a lesson. Yeah. I could have gotten with something smaller. Have you looked at this in the bigger picture of your life? What? Why did this show up in your life this way? And what is it here to teach you? Yeah, I mean, that's the million-dollar question. I think about that every single day. And I do believe like I got knocked off my course for a reason. Like some there's something to learn here. And there's bits and pieces that are coming into the light for me. Um, I'm really understanding and I had no concept of this, how when something goes this viral, how the technology companies are benefiting from this and how we don't know that when we are forwarding and liking and clicking, we are putting billions of dollars in their pocket. You're just creating an algorithm and creating an algorithm that feeds it. And the more pain someone like me is in, the more money they're going to make and it fuels it and feeds it. And I think there's accountability there that um needs to be looked at. I think I'm heartbroken at how women are treating other women. Like I'm I want to one thing I don't know the answer to yet, but is like how can my experience turn into something positive to keep that conversation alive and try to figure out like why are we doing this to each other? We're so much stronger together. Why why are we eating each other alive? It Yeah. Um and holding each other back and why do we take such joy in seeing other people suffer? Yeah. It's really scary. It's so interesting once you've been through something like this, when you see somebody else going through it, it it creates an empathetic moment for you to want to reach out and say, "I know what that's like." Right. That's right. Yeah. That's right. I did that. I reached out to a family. There was a girl who was I don't know if you heard about this. She was four years old receiving zillions of death threats because she was helping her dad, who's a radio personality, pick out football teams. and she started to miss the mark on the choices and people started threatening her life because she was screwing up their gambling publicly. They were threatening this four-year-old girl and I reached out to her family and they were lovely and I mean it's so scary what they're going through. I mean it's just it it's it's happening all the time.

It's also I my producer said that what Daryl Hannah recently released a statement Yes. about what was going on in the the the Kennedy love story. That's right. Yeah. I actually brought I wanted to share a quote if I could from that. I don't if anyone has if you haven't read her essay in New York Times this past week. It's it's a beautifully written piece, but it was it struck me deeply. Um and there was a part where she talks about um how Jackie Onases used to say to her like there's going to be horrible things in the news. It's going to you know because Darl Hannah was dating was dating John F. Kennedy Jr. and Jackie O said it you're going to people are going to write horrible things about you but don't worry about it. It'll be lining a bird cage tomorrow and people will you know the newspapers will be lining bird cages. Don't worry. And she wrote, and I I quote, this was from on the 6th of March, "In the digital age, stories do not disappear. Yesterday's news is not tossed out with the morning paper, and lies live online forever. They are archived, streamed, clipped, meme'd, and resurfaced endlessly. A dramatized portrayal can become for millions of viewers the definitive version of a real person's life." They think that that's history. That's right. Yeah. So that I mean that's exactly like it I wish I knew Daryl Hannah so I could give her a huge hug but she what she wrote about was encapsulated my experience to a tea.

Yeah. So where are you now in the healing process for you and for your family? You're supporting yourself. You're supporting your children. Have you started to look for work again? Has Andy Byron I hear has has gotten offers from other places. Lots of interest. Lots of interest. And I think he has the luxury of staying silent and he can go back to work when he's ready. I don't. I feel I have to remind myself I'm not on trial, but I have to in order for me to get back on my feet, I have to come out and explain. And I think that's a stark difference between the man and the woman in this situation. I have to explain and explain and justify and and I feel like people when I speak up, they think I'm trying to be famous. If I don't speak, I must be guilty. Um, so I'm trying to figure out the right balance there. And for me, I'm, you know, I'm raising my kids alone. I'm financially responsible for my kids alone and I need to get back to work. Yeah. Cuz people are going to criticize you for like why are you talking? If I talk I'm trying to prolong my 15 minutes of fame. If I'm not talking I'm, you know. Yeah. So again, you decided to talk because because I felt, like I said in the beginning, like I can't stay silent and um accept what has happened. And I do feel like it's important that people understand the real story. and also how harmful it is to just make assumptions and judge and and feed and fuel something that created this narrative.

But you're so right. It, you know, I knew that Andrew had Andrew, your husband that you're getting a divorce from, had made a statement saying that you all were separated at the time, but you're right. We never heard from Andy Byron. And if Andy Byron had done that, it would have changed everything, I think. Yes. That's right. That's right. Don't y'all think so? Everybody would have thought, "Oh, they're both separated. Okay, still her boss, still HR, still not good, but a lot less interesting to the general public, I think." And I think I do think, you know, Chris Martin being a celebrity and and that adding to it, I think, helped with this, you know, this thing going viral. For sure. I think when you bring a celebrity into the mix with private people, it I think it gives it more. Yeah.

And before we go, uh, I I said to you backstage, which I do with all interviews that are important. Um, uh, all interviews are important, but not as important as you wanting to make this statement here. I always ask people before every show, and I've been doing this since 1989, actually. I ask people before we go out, what is your intention? Because I want you to be able to fulfill exactly the reason that you came. Thank you. I'm glad that you came. I'm glad that you are willing to have your first and you say only interview with me. But most important, I want you to be able to say and fully not get home and say, "Oh, I should have said or she didn't ask me." What is it you feel that you need to say or that you want people to know before we leave? Yeah. I want people to know that I'm just a regular person. I'm a private person. I didn't ask for this. Um, I didn't ask to be famous and and I've I have no experience dealing with all of this and I'm just I'm a mom that takes my kids to school and picks them up at practices and tries to juggle work and or I was work and parenting and I'm someone's daughter and sister and friend and I really want people to understand what happened and what harm it does to real people's lives when you mindlessly fuel a fire like this. It's incredibly dangerous and I'm so grateful I have the tools I have that I can sit here and talk about it because so many people don't make it through it and it's tragic. Um, and I just I want people to, you know, just be kind. And I, you know, it sounds especially women to women. I know you were upset because you felt that there were other women who came out and should have been more supportive. You felt Yeah. I just think we're holding each other back. Like let's stop. And I think it's a conversation that needs to be had over and over right now. Like what is going on with us as a gender that gives that you know we take such pleasure in holding each other back and hurting each other. Yeah. It's really true.

I heard you were upset when there was a commercial that Gwynneth did. Gwyneth Paltro. Yeah. Yeah. That was really disappointing to me. Um I felt like Gwennneth, someone whose company is is founded on or framed around uplifting women and women's well-being. And she doesn't need the money. I don't know why she felt she needed to throw gas on the fire and get involved in all of this. Um, it was it just felt really hypocritical to me and unnecessary. And I think, you know, I don't want to let Ryan Reynolds off the hook either. Uh, he produced the ad, he created it, and his wife has just gone through something really similar over the last year. And I I find it really kind of astounding that he thought this was a great way to to lead, you know. Well, I will tell you that um I called Gwyneth and I asked her about this and so this isn't an official statement, but I did ask her if it was okay if I if if I shared what she shared with me and she said that she was told that you and Andy Byron had signed off on that commercial and and she said um she wouldn't have done it if she hadn't heard that you had signed off on the commercial. Had you signed off on the commercial? Um no. Yeah. She communicated that to me as well. Okay. Cuz she also said I was going to say she also said that she sent you a sent you an email and that she hadn't heard back from the email. So I just wanted to say that. Okay. Mhm. Thank you. Okay. Um so when that commercial came out, did you feel that that was just fuel on the fire? Absolutely. I mean it made everything in that moment and for you know ensuing days or weeks, it made everything harder. Um it was made it a lot harder for my kids too. Um I think when when a celebrity gets involved like that that's they're teenagers like I said they know who she is. They know um and it it made it just added to it in a way that was so unnecessary. Mhm. Um but people have their own needs and I can't speculate as to what those are. So it happened and I can just And you're saying that you've been most disappointed by the reaction from other women. That's been the biggest thing for me. Um, and I I don't know. I wish I could fix it. I wish I could understand. And honestly, I'd love to sit with some of these women that are so angry at me and really listen and try to understand what it is about me or what it is. What could I have what would they like to have seen? You know what? I don't know. I'd love to have a real conversation about what it is that makes them so angry. We can make that happen if you want to. I really would love it. I I I'm being deadly serious on this. I don't I I have a real need to try to understand and have empathy for people that are hurting and I'm feeling so much hurt that I I can't fix it, but I would love to understand it. That would help me heal too to better understand why um why people are so angry. Yeah.

Is there anybody here who had seen the video who was angry? Yes. So, were you one of those angry people? I wasn't angry at you. I my the first thing that came to my mind when I saw that video was everything done in darkness comes to light and I pass judgment and I I take ownership for that. It was not it wasn't nice and it's not the type of example that I should make for my children. Um, as a mom, I empathize with your plight tremendously because unfortunately children are the the casualties of these they take the brunt of a lot of this, right? Um, but one thing that I think is really important and I was I was the woman who was at home and who didn't know. Yeah. Okay. After 17 years of marriage. So when I saw that it really hit home. Yeah. But the most important thing that I've learned through my journey is that the only person that can define who I am is me. That's right. That's right. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I think that's really true. But I also as as a person who is um you know throughout the internet uh you know people say horrible things. There's no need for horrible horrible things all the time. And it is very very different if you're up on a jumbertron that becomes the most watched video of the entire year. It is. And I and I there is that distinction. But for a person who's going through a very public situation in their own microcosm, which is a jumbotron for them, it's different. But again, and so my apologies for the judgment that I passed based on what I had read cuz you didn't know that you were separated. I didn't know that you were separated. You didn't know that he was separated? No, it was because that's not I went by the narrative. Well, that's a major factor. But irrespective of that, I would have never ever ever said something mean or wish death upon like that's just that's just unacceptable. Yeah, I think that this is Thank you so much for sharing that and thank you so much for being willing to admit that you were in judgment because the whole world was actually and I would have to say that in this moment I think it's really important for we as the human species to look at how we are participating in the comments and the global discussions because does a person deserve death threats because they made made a mistake. Think of all the mistakes we've made in our lives. Think of all the things you wish had not been seen or you wish you hadn't have done that or said that or whatever and it gets, you know, replicated 300 billion times and now people are threatening your life and the life of your children. They're parked outside your house and your number is all over the world. I mean, just think about that for a moment. Yeah. I am really sorry that you had to go through that. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to talk about it. And I to I know it took a lot for you to do this today. I do have to say if I can interrupt and I'm sorry I at the center of the like trauma for me is how women have treated me and it was really scary to come here and sit in the center of a room full of primarily women just kind of looking at me like this is really really terrifying. Yeah. Um but I have to say like I do feel a lot of warmth in the room. So I want to thank the people here. Um, this was it was almost I could almost couldn't do it because of the audience. And you still you still said yes. Well, my daughter told me yesterday morning when I dropped her at school and I was like, I'm so nervous. And she's like, "Mom, this will be like therapy for you. You can do it." And I was like, "Oh, thank you." Yeah. Yeah, it does feel good. Well, it does feel good. Yeah. So, I thank you for allowing me to be your first interview. Thank you. Thank you. For sure. Thank you those of you who are watching. I'll see you next time. Grow well everybody. Go well. Good job. Thank you. Good job. Thank you. Thank you. Good job. Good job. Good job. Well done. Well done. Well done. Well done. Well done. Well done. Well done. Yes. You can take our picture now. Yeah, you can take our picture now. Yeah, I hope you'll let Cole play again because honest to God, Chris Martin, honestly, he's one of the most empathetic people and on if he had known, he never would have done that. The problem is you both look like you would been busted. I know. And so when you look like you've been busted, you know, we didn't those judgments weren't made out of nowhere. It's because both of you, oh my god, we've been caught. And if both not for what you thought you do want to work again, right? I'm dying to go. I'm so bored. I like I have so I said to Gay, I have so much gas left in the tank. I'm dying to get back to work. I don't He's gotten job offers and you haven't. That's that's Wow. I do just want to say like me sitting here, I was getting chills from you speaking. Like it really honestly like hearing your perspective, you know, seeing it on social media, seeing all these different things and people making their own narratives, you speaking out. I'm sure all the women in this room feel this way. Like after hearing your story, like we empathize with you. Like it really does. I'm like, "Wow, you really told the story." Yeah, you did. You can subscribe to the Over Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks everybody.