Transcription
Christian apologist Wes Huff has done it again. He appeared on one of the largest podcasts in the world, Diary of a CEO with Steven Bartlett, who asked some wonderful questions about God, about hell, about the person of Jesus. And as always, Wes answered with boldness, with clarity, and with kindness.
Quite a few of you have asked me what I think about this exchange. So, I had my team put together different clips, and here's my live reaction. Let's start with the first one.
"Liars make poor martyrs in that you will die for something you believe is true, but the chances of you dying for something you know is not true are less likely. The interesting thing about the early disciples is they get none of that. In fact, they almost get the complete opposite of that in that Jesus says, 'You're going to be persecuted. You're going to be put in front of tribunals and you're going to be interrogated.' And that's exactly what happens. And they know that there is there's a danger to this because we have in the book of Acts, which is the book after the Gospels. We have a recounting of the first martyr of Steven."
One of the things I love about Wes's response here and in the rest of this podcast is he doesn't overstate his case. He's often willing to say, you know what, I have thoughts on this, but this is not my lane. And qualifies his answer. He doesn't say here, as many people do, that the apostles dying as martyrs proves Christianity is true. All he said is that liars make poor martyrs. And I think he's right about this. As I've done in my doctoral work and an academic book on this, we can't show that most of the apostles died as martyrs historically speaking. But I think we know that they were eyewitnesses of the risen Jesus. They believed Jesus had risen from the grave. And you might say they put their lives on the stake to back this up. So minimally, I think Wes is right. This shows they didn't invent this story. They have themselves put in harm's way, but really at least minimally believe that it was true.
Let's look at another clip.
"The Loch Ness monster in Scotland as well, where there's been 1,500 sightings of this big monster in the river. And even up until recent times, 2025, there was a surge of sightings. Clearly, humans have an ability to make make things up that aren't real in some situations."
"Sure. Part of the answer to the question is one of the evidences for Jesus's resurrection is the fact that you and I, Stephen, are still talking about it almost 2,000 years later."
"My friend said this to me. I was telling you before about my Christian friend. He was like, 'Why are we still talking about it?' Well, I we can't prove it."
"It wasn't It didn't happen. So, we're always going to talk about it. There's never going to be I mean, unless something happens, right? The difference is that there are these other messianic movements that happened in the ancient world. And so uh like uh Simon Barura, the reason why we're not talking about Simon Barura as a messianic figure is because he died and his movement died with him."
Wes asks a really interesting question given that there were a lot of messianic figures, a lot of people who claimed to be prophets and speak for God. Why are we still talking about this person Jesus? And why do more people follow them than anyone who's ever lived? That's an important question. Now, I think Stephen is right. Humans clearly have the ability to make stuff up. We do make stuff up. But there's a difference between the Lochness monster and the disciples. With the disciples, there's no expectation. Now, we do have Jesus predicting his death, of course, in John 2 and in John 10 and in Mark 8, 9 and 10. But the apostles don't understand that until after Jesus comes back and they look back and see it. So there's not the kind of expectation here that is present in the case of the Lochness monster. But second, believing in the Lochness monster doesn't cost you anything. In fact, in the eyes of some people, it might make you cool to be able to say that you saw the Lochness monster. But the apostles are saying that they believe in this person who was crucified as an enemy of the state. That puts them minimally in harm's way. So why would they invent a story of a crucified Messiah and put them at odds with not only the religious leaders but also at odds with Rome? That's very different than a belief in the Lochness monster. So yes, humans do have the proclivity to make stuff up, but I want some evidence to show that they in fact made up this story about Jesus. And I think all the indications are that it's not the kind of story they would invent. Why would you invent a story where somebody says, 'Oh, it's just a thought that makes you guilty of murder or adultery.' Why would you make up a story and say, 'Pick up your cross and follow me.' And given that crucifixion was the most shameful death imaginable, dishonorable death and honor was one of the highest uh attributes that people valued in that society. Why would you make it up? Yes, people make up stuff, but the story of Jesus doesn't have the ring to me of the kind of story that would be made up.
Let's look at another clip.
"Do you have any doubt?"
"Oh, of course."
"Okay, so you have at least even 1% doubt?"
"Oh, definitely. And I think especially when there are times of things that are far more existential than historical, when times of like struggle and pain and suffering and I look at the world and I look at how messy it is, the children who die young, people who are abused, all of these things, I there are moments where I think how how could there be a good God?"
I love this answer because like Wes, I regularly and consistently have doubt. Now, I have some friends who seem to have the gift of faith and have no doubt. That's not me. Now, keep in mind, you can believe something and have doubts. Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief is. That's why Jude 22 says, "Have mercy on those who doubt." Doubt can sometimes be painful. I think when Christians pretend or act like we have 100% certainty and then people have questions and they have some doubt, they feel like, I might as well be an unbeliever. I think that's a profound mistake in our age of information and AI. I don't know how anybody doesn't at least have some doubt. So, I think we ought to model to people and be authentic and be honest and say, 'Yeah, I believe it makes sense to me. I'm confident, but I have doubts.' And I think that shows people you can still believe and follow Jesus even if you have some doubt. That's an honest answer. Way to go, Wes.
Let's look at a fourth clip.
"So if if I believe in the science and in that argument and the atheist argument or I believe in the Bible, I still need a an answer to like, yeah, but so what? That's why the Bible is such an amazing explanation for that. Because in a world that tells you ultimately that you're a product of time plus matter plus chance, the Bible looks at you, Steven, and says you're created with meaning and purpose and intention. You bear the image of God. So there's something that is actually screaming from your biology about who you are that goes beyond the fact that you're not just a physical specimen sitting in front of me. Right? You have a mind and that mind is maybe your brain or we're not even sure about that. Right?"
"So what makes Steven Steven? You're not not your body. And that's why I mean there's this inherent conversation within Christianity about the fact that our hope is not a spiritual one. The end result is the resurrection."
The "so what" question is one of the biggest questions we can ask and I think the Bible begins by addressing it. Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God created." The first thing we learn about God is not that God is love or holy or righteous, but he's a creator. If something is created, there's a purpose for it. The Bible begins by saying, "The world and human beings, you're not a mistake. You're not an accident. You have purpose and you've been made in the image of a holy, perfect God. Thus, human beings have infinite dignity, value, and worth." So the "so what" question is answered by God being the creator, giving us purpose, meaning, and value embedded in the world, embedded in our bodies, embedded in our lives. But it goes further. Jesus said in Matthew 6:33, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you." Not only do we have purpose, meaning, and value, but we have a call, so to speak, for our lives. Our purpose is to love God and love other people. That's what we're called to do. And Jesus says, if we do that, then all these things shall be added unto you. So, Christianity answers the question of what is the good life. And the good life is those who love God and those who love others. As Matthew 6:33 says, if we stop focusing on ourselves, which our culture does, and we focus on loving and caring for others, guess what? We find a meaningful, content life.
Let's look at clip number five.
"So, if I don't believe in Jesus, yeah, and I don't believe in the Bible, but I live a good life. I'm nice to people. I'm charitable. Try and be kind wherever I can be. Yeah. And I don't believe in God. Am I going to hell or heaven as it relates to the scriptures?"
"Well, I don't think if you're living your life rejecting God, God is not going to force you into his presence."
"So, you I'm not going to go into he I'm not going to go to heaven then."
"No."
"Where am I going to go?"
"Well, you would you would go hell."
"So so if I don't believe in the Bible, Jesus, and God, then I'm going to go to hell."
"Yes. In so far as if heaven is a place for those who have submitted their lives to Jesus, who are living the identity of what they're created to be and said, 'Your will be done, God.'"
"Yeah."
"Hell is a place where God says, 'You rejected me. Your will be done. I'm going to I'm going to give you what you want in that. I'm going to remove my grace and mercy from you and you are going to experience truly what you desire in being separated from me and my goodness and my grace.'"
With an appropriate smile on his face, Wes Huff told Stephen and really everybody who doesn't believe in Jesus that they're going to hell. Now, a lot of people watching this instantly are going to be offended, think this is exclusivistic and uncaring. The reality is this is what Jesus said. Jesus said this. He made it clear in John 3:18. He said, "Anyone who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe in him is already condemned because he does not believe in the one and only son of God." Jesus spoke those words. Now, if Jesus is the virgin-born, miracleworking, prophecyfulfilling, sinless son of God, then he has the authority to speak these words in a way none of us do, whether we like it or not. Now, I've seen studies that estimate about half of Americans would say that they feel like if they live a good life, then they're going to heaven. There's something natural about saying if my good deeds outweigh my bad deeds, I go to heaven. I get that. It suggests that we know we should live a certain way and that we should be good. But Jesus said, "Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect." The only person who's perfect, who ever lived, was and is Jesus Christ. That's why in John 8:46, Jesus says to the Pharisees, "Which of you can convict me of sin?" He is the only one who's lived a truly good life. That's why Paul writes in Romans 3:10, "None is righteous. No, not one." And in Mark 10:18, Jesus says, "No one is good but God alone." The way to get to heaven according to Jesus is to put our faith and trust in him. Repent of our sins and trust that Jesus's good life, so to speak, which we're able to access through God's grace and our faith is what enables us to be righteous before God. Wes, good job. Graciously and boldly speak in truth because that's what Jesus said as well.
"Praying doesn't seem to be impacting outcome."
"What is your perspective? Does praying work? If if my child is sick and I start praying, is is that going to help?"
"I think prayer in Christianity is a give and take in that it's a relational thing. It's God desiring to have communication with you."
It's interesting how Stephen worded this. He said prayer doesn't seem to be working. Our sense of whether prayer is working or not is going to be based on our expectations. Now, what is the purpose of prayer biblically speaking? Is to relate to God, as Wes said, is to commune with God, to express our heart to God, to cry out to God, but also to request things. That is one prayer and one means of prayer that we can do. Now, I've had unanswered prayers, but I've also had some answered prayers. Part of what we have to realize is we are finite beings praying to an infinite God. We have limited knowledge. God has all knowledge. So, what seems to us like God is not answering our prayers has to be taken into consideration that God knows the past and the present and the future, and that sometimes answering our prayers is actually not best for us. Now, I do think there are some studies that indicate that God in fact answers prayers. I'd invite Stephen or anybody watching this to check out the book from 2012. It's Harvard University Press, Dr. Candy Gunther Brown. It's called Testing Prayer. I had a chance to interview her, but you can go to her book, and she makes a case that there is some good evidence for answering prayer. I'll let you research that and look into it. But I think prayer does work. We just have to keep in mind biblically what is the purpose of prayer and what in fact should we expect?
Two more.
"So simulation theory posits that actually this is what our lives are. There was an a civilization at some point in the cosmic universe that got to that point of technological sophistication. They ran a bunch of different simulations on a computer or whatever their technology was. And this is one such world we're living in right now."
"And that is actually our god. It could be some 4-year-old alien that had a laptop, right, 10 gazillion years ago. And the big bang was the day that he started the simulation."
"Yeah. Almost like it was intelligently designed, right?"
"Yeah."
I love this answer by Wes. It's short. It's to the point. And he says, "If this simulation theory were true, this doesn't point towards time and chance and material forces explaining our existence. It points towards there being a mind and design and intention behind the universe." So, he's right about that. Now, is it logically possible? Is it possible that this simulation theory is true? Sure. I'm not sure how we should or even how we could rule that out. The question is not, is it possible? The question is, is it probable? I don't see any positive evidence that we're actually living in a simulation. Now, this theory could explain some of the evidence we see for intelligent design in nature. But why should I believe that's the best explanation? Especially when we have this person Jesus who claims to be the simulation maker, so to speak. In other words, he claims to be God. John 1:1, John 1:18, John 8:58, John 20:28, Mark 14, Titus 2:13. Over and over again, Jesus claims to be God. But we have evidence he walked on water, he healed the blind, he did miracles and rose from the grave. So if you have two theories, the simulation theory and Christianity, that can both in principle explain the intelligent design, one has no further evidence. The other one, Christianity, has further evidence. Why would we go with the possibility of the simulation theory? I'm a Christian because I think it not only resonates most deeply with the human heart, but I think the evidence actually points towards it being true and Jesus actually being God.
Let's look at the last one.
"Maybe love is God."
"I mean, that's from the Bible. God is love. The thing grammatically that's interesting about that when John writes that in his epistle is grammatically in the Greek, it's phrased in a way that God is love, but love is not God. Right? So you can't deify the what love is."
Super thoughtful response by Wes. Steven says maybe love is God. And what Wes does is clarify that when First John 4:8 says that God is love, this is not an identity statement. Now, what do I mean by this? If I said Shawn is the husband of Stephanie, that's an identity statement because Stephanie is the husband of Shawn. A equals A. Same things, different terms. But if I said Shawn is human or Shawn is male, that's essentially true about me. But you wouldn't flip it and say, well, human is Shawn or male is Shawn. That's in a sense what is going on in the Bible. Again, 1 John 4:8, when it says God is love, we can't flip it around and say love is God. But when it says God is love, there's something essential about God's character that is love. Love is not just something God does. Love is what God is. It's who God is. And this is only because the Christian view of God is a trinity. That there is one God who exists in three persons. You see, to be love, there has to be a lover and a beloved. There has to be a distinction of persons. And this is why I think the deepest cry of the human heart, which Stephen expresses here, is for love, that the universe has love, that I am loved, that I can love other people. We all know when we stop the yearning of our heart is to know and be known, to love and be loved. And friends, it's only in Christianity that God is love and he's made us in his image, which means we are made for relationship. Hence, we only find our true calling. We only find our purpose and we can only really live the good life when we're in relationship with God and we're in relationship with others.
Wes again, well done. Friends, Christian or not, I would invite you to take that video of Diary of a CEO, send it to someone who's not a believer and say, "Hey, watch this. Let's get coffee and let's talk about it." Just get the conversation going and model your conversation after Wes. Kind, thoughtful, bold. Great example in my view of how to engage people relationally and thoughtfully. Let me know what you think of this video. Is this helpful? Now and then I do reaction type videos. Do you want more, longer, shorter? Let me know. And in the future, if you see other things you want me to respond to. Many of you send me notes all over the place through my website to put on my radar, let me know. And as always, would love to have you study with me at Tab School Theology to learn how to know what you believe and how to live it out with kindness. We'll see you next time.