Transcription
He's big tech's longest serving CEO, but he doesn't just run the world's most valuable company, Chip Titan, Nvidia. He's also on the front lines of the US China tech war. From that superpower showdown by talking about anything else to fears of an AI-driven jobs apocalypse.
"You're not going to lose your jobs to AI."
To how long he plans to lead Nvidia.
"I hope to die on the job. That would be a dream come true."
CNA correspondent. A conversation with Jensen Huang. Jensen, thank you so much for joining us.
"Victoria, it's great to be with you."
You were in Beijing with President Trump recently. What are some of your biggest takeaways?
First of all, it was a it was a great honor to represent the United States and it was a great honor for for me to accommodate accompany uh President Trump. He called me in the morning. He he didn't realize I wasn't going and he he insisted that I get on the plane and to go. And so I packed up in a hurry. He called me in the morning as he was leaving. Uh and uh he thought I was in Washington DC to jump on Air Force One, but I was in the West Coast. And so he he told me just, you know, uh meet me in Alaska. And so so I flew to Alaska, jumped on Air Force One and uh went to China. I was there with 16 I think other CEOs and it represents um quite a large collection of great companies um from uh consumer electronics of course to uh industrials and automotive and and all the way to financials and and biotech and and so it was a large large collection of industry uh that was represented and the conversations were really welcomed. President Xi, Premier Liang were extremely welcoming and they spoke about uh cooperation and a stable relationship and um and that that um China would be an open market and even o more wide open than before.
But reports suggest that China hasn't purchased any of the Nvidia's H200 chips um despite US export approval as it pushes for its own chips. Could that actually um eventually make China your greatest rival?
Um well, China is going to be everybody's greatest rival. I mean, that that goes without saying because they have so they have such um such an extraordinary uh local market. It is completely uniform just like United States uh every single state speaks English. Uh China, every province speaks Chinese. And that's a a a substantial advantage uh versus Europe where every single country speaks a different language and and or uh countries where where everybody spoke this speaks the same language but the market's not very big and they have really treasured and valued science and technology the companies are very competitive super vibrant uh incredible companies from Alibaba to Xiaomi to Tencent uh BU and these amazing companies large and also so many small companies uh that are so vibrant and and so I think it goes without saying that that China's uh pace of innovation and its own natural resources uh including its people and its culture will almost certainly guarantee that China will compete with every industry and they are very competitive with respect to us. We're not stepping back from China. Uh I I would say I would say that the Chinese government when we were banned from going to United going to China uh through export controls uh it left a vacuum that the Chinese companies were able to fill and as a result Huawei and many of the startup companies in China had record years. uh they are now growing at an incredible pace and and in our absence uh even though Nvidia's technology is better uh it is in our absence um available technology is the best you can get and it's plenty good. I think um uh my only statement was that that the Chinese government is um understandably as every government would and should encourage and want to have conditions for their local companies to be successful. However, I also believe that Nvidia could add an enormous amount of value to the Chinese market.
But would you say that we're seeing the rise of two separate AI ecosystems, one led by the US and the other by China and can they coexist?
It is possible that that uh two AI ecosystems are created, but it's not wise. I believe that that uh China and United States should cooperate in AI, not just compete in AI. And it is possible to do both. I work with so many competitors today. They're competitors of mine, but I also compete with them on the one hand, and we co cooperate greatly on the other hand because we want what's in the best interest of the industry. We want what's in the best interest of the market. We want what's best interest for society. AI is really a five layer cake to think about it. Um from the lowest level it requires energy because AI is produced generated in real time. The next level is chips. This is where Nvidia is and where a lot of the companies in Taiwan are in. And and the layer above that is infrastructure, land, power, data center, as well as the cloud service software that turns the chips into a cloud service into a data center. The layer above that is where most people think about when they think about AI, which is models. Chat GPT was revolutionary. But then above that ultimately that's the most important which is how does all of these this AI technology impact society in a in a positive way and so that would be applications for China. Nvidia's technology uh competes with one layer of the five of the five layered cake. When Nvidia is participating in China and serving the Chinese market as we have in the in the past it supports the expansion of the other five layers.
It's hard to imagine AI without you and Nvidia. So, can you share with us your vision of this AI revolution and where will we be 5 years from now?
The big breakthrough of artificial intelligence is on multiple levels and even now with agentic AI you can take action use tools.
And you've talked about agentic AI now in simple terms what is it and how will it change the game?
Agentic AI is called agentic AI for its agency. Agency simply means it has the ability to do things autonomously and then it would perform and then it would evaluate, re-evaluate, replan, exercise, you know, act again, evaluate and just keep iterating until it gets the job done just like just like um just like we do. And so it performs the task autonomously which is the reason why we say it's agents. In the future, these AI agents would also run inside a physical body, for example, a robot. So, a robot is essentially a physical AI agent.
We are seeing more and more companies cutting jobs while they're investing heavily in AI. What do you say to people who are afraid of losing their jobs to AI?
I would say to the people who are worried about losing their jobs to AI to learn AI. You're not going to lose your jobs to AI. You're going to lose your job to somebody who learned AI better than you. When the PC came along, the PC didn't take people's jobs. The people who didn't learn how to use PCs were left behind. And so, my recommendation is don't allow yourself to be left behind by AI. Let's talk about what's going on. It's more likely that the companies with ambition will be more productive. They will do things faster. Their company would increase in velocity. As a result, they become larger, more profitable. When they become larger and more profitable, they'll end up hiring more people. And of course, they'll use more AI, but they'll also hire more people. Nvidia today has AI all over our company. We're hiring more people. We're moving faster. We're more and more ambitious. The type of things that we used to think was going to take 10 years, I now think is going to take one or two years. And so your ambition has to be elevated by the technology of the time. If you don't engage the technology of your time, you'll just simply be left behind.
How would you say that job cuts are inevitable because of AI?
It is very likely there will be more jobs in 5 years than there are today. many more jobs. Some jobs will be different, some jobs will be gone and many new jobs will be emerged. And I can say that with almost certainty and the reason for that is this. The GDP of the world has been growing at about 2% per year for 150 years. for 150 years where there was the industrial revolution with electricity, information technology, transportation, steam, you know, manufacturing equipment all the way to personal computers and internet and cell phones and so on so forth and artificial intelligence. It's been on a solid 2% per year. The number of jobs that will be created in the next 150 years is going to be utterly incredible. There's an optimistic future that uh that uh I imagine and facts would support my imagination of that future and um and and I think the the narrative that connects AI to job loss for many of the CEOs that are doing it um it is just too lazy. It's just too lazy. AI has just arrived. How is it possible they're already losing jobs? You know, how is it possible that AI became productive and useful only six months ago and they were they were cancelling they were somehow laying people off two years ago because of AI. It doesn't make any sense. It was just a way for them to sound smart and I really hate that. Um I would I think we're scaring people and that's irresponsible. I think we should tell a balanced story, a balanced narrative about the potential of this technology, the importance of advancing it safely, securely, guardrail with necessary social, political, government, government, industrial policies to ensure that it advances safely. On the other hand, tell a story that's optimistic so that people want to be part of it.
What kind of jobs do you envision that AI will create?
Well, look at all the jobs that are being created already. AI is a five layer cake. It needs energy. The country, the company, the region, Taiwan, the island, if limited by by energy, would simply be left behind. You need energy in order to enjoy this new industry. Anybody who's in the power generation, energy generation industry, their stock prices are going up. They're hiring more people. The revenues are increasing. The next layer up is ships. Every single partner of Nvidia stock price has tripled in just a couple of years. And so you could see it's of course creating a lot of jobs. The next layer above that is infrastructure. Look at how many data centers are being built around the world. How much land being dedicated to building data centers. And so electricians and plumbers and construction workers and architects and designers and technicians and networking engineers just the number of jobs are very hundreds of thousands just in the United States alone and so probably millions around the world and then just keep going up every single layer. And then one more statistic last year was the single largest year of venture capital investments in human history. $100 billion in just one year went into AI native companies. Whole bunch of jobs being created. And so my point is it's more likely that AI will elevate your job, elevate the purpose of your job if you became expert at it. Try to engage it. Don't be afraid of it.
And for all the parents out there, what do you suggest their kids should be studying in order to stay relevant in the age of AI?
I think that it won't matter. All the things that used to matter are still things that that are going to matter in the future. So whatever you decide is your passion. Uh the only one thing that you have to do is to make sure that you ask yourself how can AI help elevate my learning, my craft, you know, my purpose. Here's my simple test for all the audience. What are you advising your children to do? Are you advising them to engage AI or to reject AI and be left behind?
Coming up, Jensen Huang talks about leadership running a company like an Asian parent and answers the question, what kind of leader do you think should succeed you?
Four years ago, 5 years ago. Nvidia was spending about 1015 billion a year in Taiwan. Now we're spending 100 going to $150 billion in Taiwan each year. Nvidia spends at this point, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars in AI infrastructure and most of our spend is in Taiwan. And so we've we've invested through the most the best form of investment which is business uh hundreds of billions of dollars into Taiwan.
And we know that Taiwan sits in the center of the global supply chain. What kind of role do you think Taiwan plays in the AI race?
Well, Taiwan has the letters AI in it and so AI is at the center of Taiwan. On the one hand, uh the supply chain is diversifying around the world. Fabs are being built all around the world. Chip plants, packaging plants, computer plants are being built all around the world. On the other hand, it's growing incredibly here in Taiwan. The energy pressure is high, the land pressure is high, and uh of course uh Taiwan is extraordinary at manufacturing. No region is better prepared for the continued growth of AI than Taiwan. And I absolutely uh uh continuing to expect Taiwan to grow at an outpaced you know a very accelerated pace uh for many years to come.
And also among all the business leaders in Taiwan. I know you're very close to Morris Chain TSMC founder and can you describe your friendship?
I learned from him every time I'm with him. I was with him last night. Uh Morris Morris and Sophie had uh my parents Lori and I and and uh Madison was with us as well. We're over to for dinner. We had a wonderful time together. When I came to Taiwan for the first time after I left when I was 5 years go 5 years old I came back for the first time to see Morris and um I've I've been coming back a lot since then without TSMC and Morris Nvidia wouldn't be here today and it was the support and the friendship and and the and the risk risk that they take. And back in the old days when we were quite small, all of the things that that and our growth together, our innovation together and and of course uh the creation of of the AI industry that we know today together, all of that, all of our journey and all of our history uh are highly intertwined. And of course, you know, we have a lot of wonderful life stories to share with each other. And I always treasure my time with him and we always have a nice nice glass of whiskey together.
Um born in Taiwan, lived in Thailand before moving to the US. How have those experiences shaped who you are today and the way you lead?
I guess we're all the products of our parents. Um my father is is very technical, very precise, uh does work perfectly and uh perfect handwriting, does everything perfectly. his level of craft and precision and just the way he does everything in his life is something that I had the benefit of learning from and and uh on the other hand u my mom's uh obsession for details she has a personality that can't let anything go in a lot of ways I think I picked up that part of her behavior and so I can focus on something for a very long time like Nvidia for 33 years and they sacrificed a lot uh leaving Taiwan and uh left left families behind and uh they went to Thailand with very little and they went to United States with nothing and so um when they went to United States uh we were basically alone. Uh living in United States going from Taiwan is is very challenging because the cost of living is so much higher. I think our humble life and just seeing my parents struggle and and um finding a place in in a strange world uh and the risk that they took so that we can grow up in America and enjoy the American dream and have the opportunities that led to led to uh Nvidia today and led to me today. that all of those sacrifices um instills instills a a character in you.
In your company, you're known to be a tough boss. And you've said that you rather torture people to greatness than to fire them.
Well, it's not it's not physical torture. It's it's the it's torture the same way that Taiwanese parents torture people, you know. And a Taiwanese parent, it nothing is ever good enough. Nothing is ever good enough. And and uh you can't go you can't go a day without without some criticism. And that's the Taiwanese way. And I'm kind of the same way. You can't show me something without me giving you some criticism. And I guess in a lot of ways that that's that's my form of torture. You know, I I will I I'll give you my feedback um always always uh immediately. I'll never save it away. Uh once I give you my feedback, just like a Taiwanese parent, once the feedback is given, you're back to loving the person again. I'm always critical of everybody's work so that I can help them be better. I want them to be better. I know they could be better and and so that's where where it's coming from.
How do your employees respond to that?
Well, you know, Nvidia's Nvidia's retention is the best in the world. We have employees that have been with me now for 33 years. And so, people don't people don't uh don't quit easily from from Nvidia. And my job is to create an environment where all of these amazing computer scientists and engineers and supply chain experts can come to Nvidia to do their life's work. And that's my job to create that condition so that they can realize their dreams just as that just as they've helped me realize my dreams. And I think that that's ultimately the purpose of leadership is to create the conditions for other people to realize their dreams to to be part of yours of course and to be part of something bigger uh but to to be able to turn their their what is their job, their profession, their craft hopefully into their life's work. And um at Nvidia you could do that.
And we know that you work seven days a week. What drives you day-to-day?
I'm exhausted all the time. Um I what what drives me? It's several things. It it's on the one hand it's as as basic as I don't want to fail and I don't want Nvidia to fail and uh I don't I don't want Nvidia to fail because we have too many uh too many people who who are counting on me. There's a burden on leaders that want everybody to flourish and to realize their dreams and to, you know, to hopefully uh succeed with us. There's a burden that comes with that and and um that gets me out of bed every day. Uh at the same time, there's a there's a hopeful, optimistic, ambitious part of me that that wants to build something that that u makes an impact, makes a contribution. there's a dreamer part of me that that wants to create that future and hope hope to see it in my lifetime. And so I'm in a hurry to to uh have it come true. Um and so it's simultaneously the burden of success and and wanting other people to come along the fear of failure uh that that somehow because of how I was raised uh because Nvidia has enjoyed um and gone through a lot of very difficult time. It was not easy to build Nvidia. It was not easy to to uh uh to be here today and and all of the struggles can never leave my body. You know, once once you've struggled as deeply as as Nvidia has, as I've had the the benefit of, it becomes part of your character and it never leaves you.
Some people have said that you still have another 30 years running Nvidia. What do you think about that?
I I would like to work as long as I can. You know, I hope to die on the job. That would that would be that would be a dream come true. I can't imagine a a more meaningful life. I'm surrounded by my family, my kids. Uh both of them work in Nvidia and and I have the benefit of seeing them all the time and I'm proud of them and the company's proud of them and they love the company and so I get to see them all the time. Lori's been with me for for a long time our whole life and you know she's been part of Nvidia every step of the way and I'm surrounded by the love of my parents and my family that part of this journey with me and so so I can't imagine doing anything else frankly.
And what kind of leader do you think should succeed you?
Leadership is about creating the conditions um for other people to be empowered and so I constantly um uh explain our strategy transparently I constantly reason about complicated situations in front of people so that they could help me double check my reasoning patterns and my reasoning logic. On the other hand, you're also exposing them through how you think through complicated and ambiguous uncertain circumstances. And so the combination of empowering people, letting them run, aligning early on what our strategies are, our guard rails are, and then reasoning in front of people, uh, really helps everybody become more successful, become more empowered. The next generation, the next leader of Nvidia is already working there. It's my job to cultivate hundreds of amazing choices. And you just never know who the right next person is. And the reason for that is because we don't know what Nvidia's going to be like in 30 years or 10 or 20. It is very likely that this leader will be in a in an era a time where intelligence is a commodity that the ability to write code, solve problems, um even scientific discovery is arguably completely automated. And so therefore what remains is ambition and character, imagination and um the empathy and generosity and kindness and you know the skills the soft skills that that defines a person beyond their intelligence and and so I I think those things will will likely become uh quite important.
Thank you so much Jensen. I really enjoy your conversation.
Thank you very much, Victoria.
Thank you.
Thank you very much. Take care. Bye-bye.