Transcription
Foreign, let's go up to uh Baltimore and talk to Kevin. What's up, Kevin?
Hey, Dr. John. How are you?
I'm all right, brother. How are you?
Um, pretty horrible. But, um, I feel very fortunate that, um, I'm able to speak to you today. So, oh man, let's, let's get into it. What's up?
So I'm 23 years old and, um, I've been gambling on sports since I was 12. Um, it has ruined every aspect of my life, shattered everything. Um, and, you know, I've, I've listened to a lot of your stuff and, you know, I've, I've done a lot of things to try and put myself in a position to get better. Um, I've gone to GA, I'm still going to GA. Um, I've seen a therapist that specializes in this kind of thing. Um, but I just can't kick it, man. And I'm feeling, I'm just feeling more and more defeated by, by the second, by the minute, by the day. So, um, just hoping that maybe you can give me any wisdom or, or just advice to maybe help me out.
Yeah, man, I can hear it in, you know, most people say that you sound exhausted. Yeah, that's, yeah. Are you, you sound way past tired, you sound exhausted.
Yeah, I also haven't slept in, um, since Sunday, really, maybe a few hours. So it keeps me up all day and just makes me hate myself more every day. So I'm just in a bad spot.
There you go. Um, are you coming off anything?
Um, no.
What do you mean? In terms of like, drugs or alcohol?
Yeah.
Do you use?
No, I, I don't drink or do any drugs at all. So gambling has just always been, been the thing.
What, what, how did this become part of your life?
Yes, so this is the, the real sad part is just that like, um, hey, hold on, hold on. I'm gonna stop you there. Like, you and I are friends now, and I'm gonna, at least while you're on the phone with me, you're not gonna talk about Kevin like that anymore, okay? That you're sad, that you're a loser, and that everything sucks. You're not gonna talk like that anymore, okay?
Okay.
That's a choice to put on a, like a, like a black trench coat of weight you're right that you don't need to carry. Is that cool?
Yeah. Yeah.
So tell me, we'll get into all the nitty-gritty, all the guts and blood and all that stuff. Yeah, but at least when you're on the phone with me, you're not gonna talk to yourself and talk about yourself that way. Is that cool?
All right. I appreciate you checking me on that.
Yeah. So, um, 12, 12 years old. What was going on in your world?
So, so I was never really like the brains of the family. And sports were always my thing. I was a great athlete, you know, I played all, all the sports. And, um, so I guess when I was there, I think a freshman, freshman high school, my friend had an older brother that was like a bookie that would take bets. And, um, that's like, really how I, you know, kind of got started. I mean, I was basically gambling with lunch money then, at that point.
But wow. But yeah, I mean, you know, ever since then, it's just, it's just gotten worse. And, you know, I've gone, I've gone days, I've maybe gone a week or two. But, you know, for the past literal decade, I, I have not been able to successfully stop for any long period of time. And I'll also say that, you know, for the past decade, I haven't been making a concentrated effort, you know, to fully stop. But right, at least for the, at least for the past year or two, man, I've, I've been grinding so hard. And I know it's, people just say, just stop. Like, what's so hard? No, I'm not. Seems that simple. But I'm not gonna tell you that that's madness. Yeah. Um, but seriously, just stop, Kevin. Just stop. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
Yeah. Um, yeah, oh, there's so much here. Okay. There's a couple things I'm gonna walk through with you. Would you be willing to talk to a buddy of mine?
I would talk to anyone that would love, that would like to talk to me. Absolutely.
Would you do it this morning? This isn't like a gotcha move, but I'm gonna talk to you through a couple things. Um, but there's somebody that I met via, um, Instagram, of all places, and who's walked a journey. And he's about a year and a half ahead of you on this. Um, yeah. If I, if I invited him into this conversation, would that be cool?
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay. It'll be a little clunky because we, none of this is planned or prepped or anything. Um, but here's what I want to, I want to start you with. What have you tried to stop? How have you tried to stop?
Yeah, so, um, I've, my parents are extremely supportive. Um, and that, that makes me kind of feel even worse, just because I continue to let them down. But, um, they can see, you know, they can see all my money. Um, they can see what comes in and what goes out. Um, like I said, I've been to GA. Um, I've self-excluded myself from casinos. But that doesn't really stop you from going in there. It's just kind of like a, a thing that you can do that is supposed to help. But unless the security person recognizes you in there and sees that you're not, you're not, you know, that you're, you've self-banned, they're not gonna do anything. So, yeah. Um, and, you know, the, the, the part that sucks is just that like, with sports, man, specifically, like there are so many offshore books, the illegal. Like, if you want to get money on something, you can get money on it, you know, that's just like the reality of it.
Yes. And, you know, I've tried the self-excluding, I've tried banning myself. But ultimately, I've kind of just realized like, I, I, I have to be like, I have to get to a point where it just doesn't even entice me, you know? Because it's always gonna be there. I can't just exclude, exclude, exclude, you know, it doesn't seem like that's a viable option. Or it's like somebody who struggles with disordered eating. If you're a Coke addict, you can just quit doing. I mean, you can stop surrounding yourself with cocaine. If you struggle with disordered eating, you've got to make peace with food because you can't just avoid it, right?
Exactly. And you, you've nailed it. You are living in this weird little sliver of history when you have virtually unlimited access to credit, to money, and virtually unlimited access to gambling. And now that with the last four years, we just stuck in your cell phone, right? We put in your pocket. Yeah. You don't have to, you don't have to go anywhere. Right?
Exactly.
Um, yeah. So at some point, here's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing a guy at war. And I've never met anybody ever who quote unquote defeated their addiction. Yeah, I've never heard that. I've never heard a guy or or a woman who defeats alcoholism. I've heard somebody take a knee and submit. Yeah. And you get the difference there? It's a totally different way of doing life. Yeah.
And I was going to say too, one of the things that like actually scares me the most is that there's a guy in, um, in the GA that I go to who's been clean since '89. And he says every single time that he's just a day away, like anyone else, from stepping into a casino and gambling. And I just think, I know he's saying that to make us feel like, you know, like we can get through it. But to me, it feels like if I have to live with this, like for the rest of my life, like how, I don't know if I can do that. Like, like he's one day away. Like, am I always gonna be one day? Am I always gonna feel this? Like, because I, I can't live like this, man. I can't.
Listen, you're not gonna feel what you've got right now. No. The dial, the dial turns back, right? Yeah.
Um, like, dude, I want to hug you so bad. I should give you a hug, man.
Well, now I just think too, like, you know, there's just so much stuff that goes into this. And I just think like, like I just feel like I've been robbed of every joy. Like my dopamine is just so cracked out from all of this gambling that like, if I can even get to a point where I can stop, like, am I ever even gonna find joy? Like, you know, it just feels like an uphill battle to even stop. And then I feel like, okay, once I get to the top, like, am I even gonna be happy? Like, is anything even gonna change? Or am I just gonna be robbed of the one thing that at least brought me, you know, dope, you know, you know what I mean?
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know about dopamine. Hold on. Hang on the line here. I'm gonna bring, um, I'm gonna bring Craig up. Hang on one second. Okay?
Okay.
Craig, are you there?
How's it going, Dr. John?
I'm good, my brother. Hey, um, this is, so just so everybody knows, this morning, early this morning, I, I was checking the, just my calendar today, and I looked at the show notes and I saw this was this call was coming. Jenna had sent these in. And so, Greg, it's the first time you and I have ever spoken person, but we met via Instagram when you reached out. And over the last year and a half, you have just, I mean, you've changed every aspect of your life in a profound way, man. So it's a, it's such a gift and an honor to hear from you over the last year and a half as you've changed everything. And, um, I appreciate you. I just reached out this morning. It's like, hey, this is a curveball. Would you mind jumping on a call with me this morning?
So, man, I appreciate you going for it, dude. This is, uh, what I've learned is a part of, uh, giving back. So, um, I was happy to do that. And, um, I'm grateful.
That was the same. I was the same person 633 days ago.
Wow. So you, you've heard this. You've been on the on the line since Kevin started talking. Tell me how familiar this sounds to you.
Um, it sounds exactly like me at 23. Only I'm 43 now, okay? And I wish I had the guts and courage, uh, for what he's doing now. Um, but I will say this, 23-year-old Craig would have not been ready to stop. Um, I only stopped when I was absolutely ready. And, uh, for me, it was just the right time, the right moment, the right place. I was, uh, desperate, just like him. I think it was December 28th or 29th. I was at my wit's end. And I was emailing you or messaging you on Instagram. And I just was pouring my guts out. And I never thought that anybody would even read it or or look at it. And a couple days later, you got back to me. And you said one thing that stuck with me and that made me realize that I needed help. And it was that you cannot do this alone. And my whole life, since I'm 10 years old, I was trying to do it alone. And that's when I finally reached out for help. And then here you are, man. You just sent me some pictures of your wedding a few, few weeks ago, man. So walk us through. You've, you've, I mean, you've paid off like a hundred and fifty thousand dollars in debt. You're cleaning, your whole life is changing.
That is correct. Um, for me, the biggest thing, uh, was connection. Um, my, uh, gambling brought me to isolation and just wanting to be alone and just forgetting what it was like to be a human. And when I listened to you and I said, when you said that you couldn't do this alone, I started research and help. I found an online support group. And through that online support group, I actually found two gentlemen in South Florida that are now my mentors that I speak to every single day. And I even visit them. And one mentor had 50, has 52 years in the program. He's number 14 in the world of being clean from gambling. His name is, his nickname is Spa bracelets. And the other guy's name is Sake. And they've been with me every single day since day three. And for me, it was about letting it out, having someone to talk to, um, not being ashamed anymore, getting it off my chest. Um, two guys that have been there before and, uh, understood it. Because only another compulsive gambler is going to understand another compulsive gambler.
So, hey Kevin, you're there? Yeah. So here's what I'm hearing. The difference between what you're saying and a guy that's a year and a half ahead of you or two years ahead of you, okay? Is you're going to the meetings, you are interacting with your family, you are trying to fight this thing. But you're doing it completely and totally by yourself. Do you get the difference?
I think so. Yeah.
Or let me put it this way. You can go to the, you can go to meetings and be surrounded by people who say, we love you, Kevin. Welcome, Kevin. And you can feel completely and totally alone.
Oh, yeah. That's, that's to a T. Yeah.
And there's something, um, different about going to a meeting and then doing what Craig did. Sitting across from somebody and saying, I'm in a mess. Help. Which is, and that's what you're doing today, actually. You're reaching out. And I would say, you've gone to a therapist. Y'all are trying to fix things. You're trying to stop gambling. Yeah. That's different than help. And if I could, um, I'm sorry, I don't know, Craig, hop in. Uh, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna step out and I want Craig, you talk to Kevin. And Kevin, you talk back to Craig for a minute.
Hey, Kev. There's a place online. It's called gamblers-anonymous.org. It's 24-hour meetings from around the world. You can find a meeting every hour on Zoom. And I was just like you. I actually, during the pandemic, I, I had to do, I probably did three, four, or five meetings a day in the first 90 days, just, just try to stay away from a bet. And having that kind of access to people with that kind of knowledge and who have been around, um, just helped me tremendously. I'm not gonna say it's easy. It is the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life, by far. The hardest thing I ever had to do in my life. And I heard you talk about like your joy and your dopamine. I was you times 20. And I'm, and Dr. John knows some of the numbers. I was you times 20, just 20 years later. And you're gonna be me in 20 years if you don't figure this out now. Yeah. You have a chance because you're looking for help. And Craig, I saw some pictures of you with this beautiful new wife of yours. Are you, have you found joy in other places?
That's exactly where I was getting to. [Music] Um, I was the same way. Even having a future fiance and then a beautiful wife and having a daughter who plays sports and who's active and engaged and a great student. None of those things at the time were making me happy or bringing me joy. 632 days later, I find joy in those things again. It does subside. Does it go away? No. No. If I was somebody like you, gambling 12, 14 hours a day, you know, insane amounts of money, had no business doing it because of access to lots and lots of credit, same exact stuff. But it does subside. But it takes time. It takes a lot of time. And it takes a lot of patience. And it takes a lot of effort and a lot of work. But it's worth it.
So Kevin, what are you hearing? What are you feeling?
I mean, it's, you know, I, I know damn well like how hard it is. But to hear that for you, that it does get better is something that I think is really resounding to me. Just because sometimes I even like look around the room like in GA and stuff and it just seems like people are just, even people that have kicked it, you know, it just seems like every day is like such a battle. I guess it is always going to be that way. But here's someone, you know, reclaim a lot of like joys in their life and just, I mean, you seem like a happy person, just speaking to and that.
Okay. I go weeks on end. I go weeks on end now. Well, it's not even thinking about gambling. When I thought about gambling 24/7. I, I, I was like you. I started when I was 10 years old fixing football pools in my Catholic school with my best friend to a lady. I'm not even. I started fixing football pools at 10 years old. And then my land, I'm gonna share this and I'm not embarrassed. My last bet, and my money doesn't mean anything in the program, but just to give you an idea of some fixing football pools at 10 years old. So my last bet was $27,000. And I have no business gambling $27,000. And that's that was that 32-year experience. It was just like a drug addict. I just needed more and more and more to get the same exact feeling that I used to get as that kid at 10 years old fixing football pools.
Yeah, I mean, that's where we go. That's the same thing as me. When I, when I was, you know, I started when I was in my teens. And 10, 10, 20 wins would make me happy. And and now if I don't have four figures on on a game, it's like, uh, sometimes I don't even bother watching if I don't have that much on it.
So, hey Craig, let me hop in here. Craig, tell me if I'm, because Craig, I know you've got a heart out because you're, you're a teacher and you're working with people. Um, correct? Let me, um, I'm gonna say something to Kevin and you hop in if I'm off base here, okay?
Sure.
Kevin, what I, I've never found somebody who successfully hates themselves out of bad behavior. I've never found somebody who's able to shame themselves into making, um, long-term life change. Ever. So here's a way I want you to look at this for the next few months. Um, you're 23, so you don't, you don't have a kid, do you?
No, I don't.
Okay. There is something so insanely maddening and weirdly beautiful about having your kid wake up in the middle of the night and come running into your room and say, Daddy, I'm sick. And then barfing on you. It's, dude, you gotta understand, it's the worst. You're dead asleep and now some kid barfed on you. And there's something poetic about that kid came to the one place he or she knew to go to. And they weren't okay. And that's me. And so I want you to stop thinking of yourself as if, if my kid came running into my room and stuck their finger down your throat and was like, Hey, Dad, haha, barfed all over me. That's a totally different story. That's the way you're talking about yourself. And so I want you to imagine for the next six months, the next year, the next six months. I think you're sick, man. And you're not a bad guy. You're not some sort of dysfunctional, shameful, idiotic. You're sick. And the antibiotic here is gonna be other people. And if you will reframe, I suck. I fail. I've been trying to this thing for 10 years. I've been fighting this thing. You're taking a very athletic approach to it. I will conquer. I will will myself through this. Um, like very David Goggins. I've never seen that work with addiction. I've only seen it. I'm sitting down. I'm looking at another human being and saying, I'm not all right.
Yeah. Doctor, I was the same exact way. And you're never, this isn't like a program or something that you graduate from. Um, you don't get any graduation. And what I've learned is, um, you're not gonna beat it. You're not gonna conquer it. It's not gonna go away. You're gonna arrest it, though. And you can, you can arrest this disease. Sometimes one minute, sometimes 10 minutes, sometimes an hour, sometimes a day at a time. And then with time and patience and work, you can get to a point where you're not thinking about it 24/7. And you're not thinking about it for days. And then you're not thinking about it for weeks. And you, and you can get better.
All right, Craig. Craig, I know you got to run. What do you say?
Kevin, I was going to say, I think part of the issue too, is just that like, I have like an amazing girlfriend. And she knows that I'm in GA and she knows I have a problem. But I'm always just afraid to share day to day how terrible I'm feeling just because, you know, like, not that it makes me a bad person, like you said, I'm sick. But like, this is something that ruins a lot of relationships, you know, and marriages. And I just think like, damn, if I'm completely open and I'm completely honest, am I gonna ruin relationships when people realize how,
Kevin, you know what that is? That's shame right there. Yeah. That's shame. That's all. If somebody actually knows me, will they still love me? And that, that is the gasoline in the engine of addiction. Because at the core, you believe, no, if they really knew me, she would not love me. And I call bullcrap on that. It is a lie. Too. It is a lie. And so when, when Craig says, you got to do the work, that's the work is living a life with no secrets. Yes. You have to be open and honest to be able to beat this thing. You have to.
Yeah. All right, Craig, I know you got to get to class, man. Hey, uh, uh, it's an absolute honor. Thank you for being brave.
I appreciate it. My, my mentor told me, you better get your butt on that thing and give back.
Good for him. Good for him. Hey, I'm grateful for you. Um, I'll connect you to via, uh, direct message. Is that cool?
That's perfectly fine.
All right, man. See you, Craig.
All right. Uh, uh, Kevin, you still there?
Kevin? Yeah.
Okay. Um, thank you for doing that, by the way.
No, you got it.
Is there, you've probably had several conversations like that. And I know they're not panaceas and I know they're not, they can't fix everything. Um, your voice sounds different now than it did at the beginning of this call.
Yeah, I think so too.
So I want to, um, this is like the part of the movie when there's the montage and someone like starts lifting weights and Rocky music's playing in the background. I don't want to blow over. If you are serious about getting well, the next three months are gonna be hell. There's just no way around that. And he said it at the beginning of the call. You have to decide, am I ready for that? Am I ready for three months of hell? And if you are, man, awesome. All in. And if you're not, make peace with not being ready to go through hell. But all of the trash talking that you do to Kevin is is not it's not helping either side of this seesaw. Right? It's not making you a better gambler. And it's not making you a weller human being. Yeah. Right.
I think too is just, I've found that depression just goes so hand in hand with addiction. And it just seems like,
Absolutely, dude. You know, even if I, like, I was telling you earlier, I'm just skeptical about hell. If I can go three months without this, is my life even gonna have meaning? And everyone that I've talked to, like the, like the guy you brought on, say the same thing. It does get better. It's just so hard for me to believe with the way I feel. But I got it. I guess I just have to trust what everyone's telling me.
Can I ask you a hard question?
Yeah.
Have you been right yet?
No.
No. So let's, let's try. So let's, let's try something different. Yeah. Our feelings have one job and that's to get us to the next day. It will even smoke a cigarette today to deal with today's stress, knowing it's gonna kill us tomorrow. And for whatever reason, your body is associated, I need this fix right now, even though I know it's killing me tomorrow, it'll get me through right now. And the goal is to create a little bit bigger gap. And he said it. He said it beautifully. Sometimes that gap is one minute. I'm gonna hold my breath for 60 seconds and get through this impulse. Yeah. I'm gonna attack somebody. I'm gonna call them. I'm gonna get on that, whatever website he just gave you. I'm gonna get on there. I'm gonna get on there. I'm gonna get on there. It's, I'm talking 60 seconds. And it makes me feel terrible. I know I'm talking bad about Kevin again, but it's like, you know, it makes it gives me so much guilt to put people that I love, like with this, because I did it all myself, man. I don't have a terminal illness. I don't, I don't have something I can't control.
Okay, hold on, hold on now. You're back to morality. And we're gonna take morality off the table. You're a brave dude. We're taking morality off the table. You're sick, man. Yeah. And you don't want to believe you're sick. You want to think that you can just flex your way through this. And you can't. Yeah. There's no way. There's no way. And you, you're also too smart for your own good, quite honestly.
I know. I mean, I have so many friends that are in the same position. And they have no idea they're even addicted. It's just like, they're, they're norm. And they don't even.
Here's what you're gonna have to do. Here's, here's every single person who struggles with addiction I've ever met struggles with. You're gonna have to find new people to be around. Yeah. You're gonna have to find new communities. You're gonna have to find new things to do when you get stressed out or angry or enraged or heartbroken. Yeah. You're gonna have to breathe through these seasons, man. And it's just, here it is. It's a set of skills. You play sports before the first time somebody told you to, I don't know, shoot a basketball, you had to learn how to do that. That's what you're doing, man. You're learning a new set of skills. And the more you can keep an open hand towards these new sets of skills versus trying to close fist around it, um, man, the, the gentler the ride. And the ride's not gonna be gentle. Yeah. Right.
So it'll be worth it. Cannot imagine a scenario where it's not worth it. Yeah. And like, you like you were saying earlier, I keep thinking, you know, about how you said, you know, if you're ready for the next three months, it's like, I'm gonna have to be ready at some point because it's, it's gonna kill me by itself if I don't, you know.
You can do it now. Or you can do it in jail. Or you can do it in court mandated rehab. But you're gonna do it, right? Yeah. So here's all right. Here's my promise. Um, I'm gonna connect you with, um, offline. I'm gonna connect you with Craig, if that's somebody you want to reach out to as a resource. I also am committed to, um, I'll put you on anytime you want to come on and let me know about your journey, okay?
Thanks, man. That means a lot.
And if you have, um, a great month and then you fall off the wagon. All right, you're still my friend. All right. I'll still pick up the tab. Just come hang out. And if you have two months and you're and you're doing all right, awesome. If you have three months, awesome. And if your girlfriend wants to call into the show and say, how do I love somebody who's struggling? I'd love to take that call too. Okay? Yeah. I'll help you every step of the way. I can hang on the line here. I'm gonna send you a copy of "On Your Past, Change Your Future" on me. Just a book to say, okay, here's what what's happened. I've got to own what I did. Period. Now, what I'm gonna walk with you, my brother. Thank you so much for your bravery. And a big shout out again to Craig for reaching, uh, for taking a last-second call this morning. Um, if you are struggling with addiction, can't do it by yourself. And you're worth peace.