Transcription
All right, everybody. We got a good one for you today. We got Matthew Pittz over at Impact Painting Services, and now he also owns a roofing company as well. So, Matthew is a, uh, member of Home Service Accelerator. Uh, we've had a chance to connect back and forth quite a bit. He's built a wagon of a painting business. So, Matthew, let's just start there, dude. Like, give us the rundown of exactly how Impact started, and then give us a little bit of detail and color behind where you guys are at sales-wise per month right now.
Um, yeah, man. So, Impact started in the middle of COVID when everybody was laid off. I don't know if you guys remember, they just shut down the economy or whatever. Um, and you know, they were doubling up unemployment and all that stuff. Don't get me wrong, I took the unemployment money. Um, but, uh, you know, I just had my second do or I was getting ready to have my second daughter, wife's pregnant, stuff like that. No, actually, yeah, that's what happened. And so I went door to door, um, knocking doors and stuff like that. And then the year after that, I thought like, well, why not just start a painting business? Cuz I just had my second daughter. It's 2021, and I came back to work, and I kind of just told my boss I was like, "Yeah, man, I can't do this anymore. I just, I got to, I got to go, dude. This ain't enough money. I made more in a weekend than I do in two weeks, you know." And so that's how Impact started. I've always had a dream of just opening up my own business. Just never had the balls. And then during COVID, something just sparked with me and I was just like, "This is, this is it, you know."
Um, and then what we're doing pretty much every month, uh, you know, during the winter times, it's anywhere between 50, 60,000, but during the summer time, it really excels to like almost 200,000 a month. And, uh, it does very, very well. Uh, we use nothing but subcontractors now. Um, but we do have some employees that we kind of go back and forth with too.
>> Okay, cool. So, yeah. And that's pretty normal for most painting companies, weather permitting. Like, summer you just tear, and then winter time is like maintenance, like a lot of repeat business stuff like that. Is that pretty much the breakdown?
>> Yeah, I mean, uh, it's give or take. I can tell by the end of summer what kind of winter we're going to have, if that's—
>> Oh, really?
>> Yeah, I could just tell. Um, you know, once, uh, I could just tell like if the leads, this is how my, my telltale. If the leads start coming in the beginning of October non-stop like they did during the summer, then I know winter's going to be a good, good winter, right? Um, if the leads kind of start drying up towards the end of September, then I know it's going to be, it's going to be pretty rough and we're going to have to crawl, you know, we're going to have to claw, claw, claw our way to the top. And, uh, but we always make it happen. Um, during winter time, we just double down, man. And we just do what other people don't want to do. Instead of crying about it, we make stuff happen.
>> No, I like that. And you know, you and I have talked a little bit back and forth on Instagram and in Discord or whatever, like part of the thing that I think you have to offer on this interview is like your sales are pretty dialed. Cuz if you're subbing stuff out, you're not touching a brush anymore. So, as much as we want to tell everybody, no one wants to hear the technicals and like how to paint or anything like that. A lot of these people just want to hear about like how to make more money. So like when we talk about sales specifically, your model is the leads come into Impact, you're turning around selling them, and then the fulfillment is happening with subs.
>> Correct.
>> Yes, for the most—actually, yeah, that's actually accurate. Um, what we, the leads come in, they come in through drip jobs. Um, we've actually ranked onto Google now to where all of our Google leads are organic. And it's not much, but I think it's a very kind of cool that we get at least 10 leads a week through Google just organically. And, you know, for the size of my company, I thought that was really, really cool. Um, those ones I deal with specifically. And, uh, we usually from there it goes to our guy Tony in Nicaragua, and he sets up the calls and everything. He's a really cool guy. And then, uh, either me, Brian, or Eric, we go out and, uh, we sell the job. Uh, but I'm very, my emphasis is always on the initial call. The initial call is the most important, and that's where I ask for the sale. The first call is, I always tell them, we ask for the sale on the first call. And, uh, every call that I set up through Google, we've landed that job. So—
>> Okay. Walk me. You want to walk me through it?
>> In that.
>> Okay. Yeah. Will, will you walk me through like what do you mean by that on the first call? So it's like, let's just, let's just paint the picture really clearly. You and I know what we're talking about. Let's just paint the picture for everybody. So I am Googling painting companies, you know, near me. I find Impact Painting on Google Maps. I find your website. I find whatever else.
>> Yeah.
>> I submit, you know, name, email, phone number, address, all that jazz. You are immediately calling me to set up a virtual or in-person estimate.
>> In-person estimate.
>> Okay. Ever do virtual? I know there's people out there that do virtual estimates and eventually I'll get to that point, but right now we do 100% uh, uh, in-person estimates because now, if we were doing 70 estimates a week, then I would switch to virtual, but we're only doing like anywhere between 20 to 30 estimates possibly a week, right? Uh, but we do in-person. So, you know, it's just the first call, man. You just kind of like, you're talking to an old friend. That's how I start the conversation. I'm like, "Hey, you know, is, is Jim there?" And they're like, "Yeah, this is Jim." I'm like, "Hey, is Matthew with Impact Painting Services? I'm the owner." And they, and they're always surprised when I pick up. They're like, "Oh, you're the owner, you know." And I said, "Yeah." Um, just want to see what we could serve you, you know? And I always, I never say what we can help or stuff. I always say serve. Like, "How can we serve you?" You know, and, uh, it sounds kind of weird, but the word plays everything to me. And so I say serve, you know, like, what do you got going on? And, uh, if I hear like a kid in the background or something, I pick that up and I say, "Oh, you got kids. How many kids you got?" You know, and then they say like, "Oh, I got this." And I say, "Oh, I got kids too." You know, and this and that. And, uh, one thing I like to do is my wife hates it, but I like when my kids are screaming in the background when I'm setting up a call.
>> Interesting. Like to humanize yourself.
>> Yes. It works. It works wonders because especially with older ladies, they love it. They, they like, I know it sounds weird, but I just kind of pick that up and they're just like, "Oh my gosh, you got kids. How old are they?" And stuff like that. And so, you know, you just talk to them like you're an old friend. But the best part is at the end where you talk about how the estimate's going to go, you know, I always say, um, "So when we, this is how we come out and do," or I say like, "So let me run you through how we do an estimate. So we're going to come out, we're going to take measurements, we're going to count the window frames, we're going to, you know, take a lot of pictures, get really into detail about it, and we're going to address any concerns that you see that, and we'll talk about how we're going to fix it. And we're going to point out a lot of stuff that we see and how we're going to fix it for you, just so that you know, and you have the ammunition if you do decide to get other quotes." You know, I always give them that option too. "If you do decide to get other quotes, I believe that kind of relieves the pressure off of the customer." Um, and then after that, I say, "Then nine times out of 10, we always write the estimate on the spot. And the reason why we do that is because we want to be able to show you exactly line by line what exactly you are buying. We don't want to leave you up in the dust. A lot of contractors, they just send you a a price and that's it. No, we're going to explain to you exactly down to the penny where all your money is going." And then, uh, I say, "If you decide to go with us that day, we're going to, um, you know, I let them know I'm going to ask for the sale. If you decide to go with us that day, we're going to give you a scheduling discount because it saves us a lot of time on the back end. Um, like say you call us two months down the road, we're going to, you know, and we're running around with our heads chopped off and we're trying to figure out how to fit you in, right? If you decide right then and there, we pull out a calendar, we schedule you, you save us time, we give you anywhere between 5 to 20% off depending on the size of your job." And then I say, "How does that sound?" And then usually from there, you go into the objections like, you know, "Why aren't you going to go with me?" You know, all that stuff. But, uh, I never really get objections when I say that because they kind of just say, "Oh, yeah, okay." And so when they, when I show up to the estimate, they know that I'm going to ask. And sometimes I give them a price over the phone too, just so that they don't, uh, you know, try to kill me or something once they get the price.
>> Yeah. No, I like that. And I think that's, that's like pretty much our identical script for my Christmas light business as well, because we feel like if we frame them properly when they don't feel like they're being sold yet, you're like preparing them and like priming them to be sold. Whereas, if you were like, "Cool, I'll be out there on Monday at 11:00 a.m." with no framing, then customers going to like, you get there on Monday at 11, Monday at 11:00 a.m., they're not home. Oh, just take a look and just send it over to me. And it's like, that's a waste of an in-person estimate. Could have done that over the phone. So, it's like that's number one, right? Like it's like you're framing it so they're there so that you can actually maximize being in person. Uh, because sometimes I see people that are like, "Yeah, I do in-person estimates." And it's like, yeah, but you're not even telling the customer, like, you're not framing them that they need to be there so you can walk them through it. So, you might as well just be virtual quoting. Like, there's no point. And so, making sure the customer knows, I'm going to walk you through this. Here's why. And then, here's what we're going to do after. Now, when it comes time to actually ask them for a deposit, or they're not like taken a taken aback because they had already verbally agreed to it when they weren't being sold.
>> Yes.
>> And that seems to work pretty well for you.
>> Yes. I, I do that. And I'm training Tony right now to get to that point, too. Like, I'm having him send me his, uh, recordings for his calls and I'm screening them and like sending back, you know, critiques like, "Hey, you should have said this here, heard that." But my true belief is this all in the beginning. If I'm talking to them like an old friend, talking about their dog, talking about their kids, talking about their house, you know, how they bought their house back in like 1941 and they've lived in there since then and you know, they raised their kids and it means so much to them and everything because that's, that's all it is. Especially with older boomer generations, their house is like, that's where they started their life, you know. And, uh, this one older couple, I posted a video of them talking about their experience with us and stuff like that. Um, and during the estimate too, you know, just sitting at the, I mean, my estimates are anywhere between an hour and a half to three hours, and only 30 minutes of that is me selling the job.
Other like two hours is me talking to them and looking at pictures or looking at their, you know, war ribbons from Vietnam or looking talking about, you know, their grandchildren or talking about their dog or talking about the future they want to have and stuff like that. And I think that, um, a lot of contractors, they, we've gotten to this point where it's just about sales and stuff like that and we're taking the humanity out of it. And, uh, I truly am a nosy person. I'm a nosy person. So I want to know everything about everybody. So it really serves me well when I go to do estimates because that's all sales is is you find a solution to the problem and then you treat them like a human being and just talk about their life. That's it. It's simple. And I think a lot of people miss that.
>> For sure. Yeah. It's like the second that they feel like they're the second they feel like they're being sold to, you've already lost. Now, there's a little bit of part of it, but the framing there is super important. So yeah, I, that, it's, it's cool because that's like largely the exact talk track that we use. So I feel like I'm in a good boat.
>> So I want to go back though to something you were talking about Google Maps. And so like for you guys, you have 86 reviews, five stars, and a ton of photo reviews.
>> Yes.
>> Can you point back to like when you said I started getting more calls from Google Maps? Is that directly correlated to how often you were blasting photo reviews and like actually getting those?
>> Yeah, I mean, um, your, your HSA actually helped me out with that. U, I remember there's a thing on there cuz Google wants to be like Instagram and all that stuff. So they have like a post part, right? And so I try to post on there regularly. I do slips sometimes, but, um, I post a lot of videos or not just videos, but, uh, pictures on there all the time after a job ends. I go in there, I put pictures up, right? Um, another thing that I do, and this sounds kind of weird. Um, under my Impact Painting Services, uh, profile, I review other companies. Uh, I put five-star reviews and review other companies. And that really helps a lot. Lets Google know that I am. This is just, I don't know if this is true. This is just my mind thinking this, right? Um, it lets Google know that I'm being active on Google, right? I don't know. That's what I feel.
>> I mean, dude, there's, there's probably something to that. Like, I'll always err on the side of more activity shown to Google will never be a bad thing.
>> Yeah.
>> Right? Like, we know it's just some big massive trillion-dollar company algorithm. They'll never tell us exactly what works and what doesn't. A lot of it's guesswork, but we know that the more active you are on the Google Business page, the better it is. So, like, why wouldn't you being more active in that, in that page help you? I mean, even if it doesn't help you, it's certainly not hurting you to be more active. And obvious, and obviously outside of that, like if Impact Painting Services has left 50 reviews all over town and people are looking at, you know, other companies, why not just have some free ad space and other companies to just see?
>> Exactly. And so like it pops up like with my logo and it says Impact Painting Services and leave, and I left a five-star review and you can click that and it goes to my profile, right? And so that's actually cool. And then,
>> Yeah, man. Um, customers, I harass the hell out of them because you can, you can tell a customer, "Hey, can you leave me a review?" Right? That's very vague. And they'll leave you like a five-star review, nothing said.
>> Right.
>> Right. So, I try to word it in a way like, "Hey, can you leave me a five-star review, right?" And then that way they can text me back if they're not going to give me like, I had a lady text me back and say she's, that she was horrified with the job and stuff like that. And so I was like, "Okay." And she's like, "I'd rather not leave you a review." I was like, "Okay, that's fine." Um, but I always say that, "Can you leave me a five-star review?" And then I always say like, "Can you please in detail explain your experience with us and post pictures?" And I, I try to do that. I, I harass, I mean, you probably know it's like pulling teeth to get customers to leave reviews sometimes.
>> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's like we find that like the best time to get it is right at the end of the job in person, but it's obviously not, it's obviously not perfect. So like we usually call it like two lines of defense. So it's like the guys on site give them the tap card, get the review there, and then if they don't get it for whatever reason, either they weren't home when we closed out or whatever else, then the system automated like starts begging them for reviews until they leave one. But dude, this is actually really funny because I, I looked at your Google business page and you have the best one-star review I have ever seen in my life. Like it is the best one. I know you know how—
>> The other day. Yeah.
>> They go, the only complaint on your company on all of your reviews and because you have 86 or 8, what, 90 or something like that, like you still say you have five stars.
>> Yeah.
>> But the only one star was that they followed up with me too much.
>> Yeah, dude. It was funny. So, I got a, I got a couple. So, that's the first person. And then there's three other ones that comment on my ads on Facebook and say they call me too much. And, you know, I, here's the thing, man. All customers have to do is literally pick up the phone or text back and say, "Hey, never mind." But customers never do. They're accountable to their actions, too. They never tell us. They filled out the form. And you know what I'm saying? And so, like, I'm going to follow up until you tell me to like, pretty much like, screw off, dude. Right. And the funny thing is she, and, and it's funny because what you said is like, they opted in. Like they literally put their info in to be contacted. Like that is what they signed up to have happen to them. And what's funny is the, in the review, the lady says, "They need to fix their cold calling." And it's like, lady, that is not cold calling. Like this is, you are a warm lead. Information. Like that's what I don't get. I get so worked up about that, man. I have, I had one that I reported and Google actually took it off. It was a five-star review or a one-star review and, um, it was because of door hangers.
He said, "He called me at 11:00 p.m. at night." And I was like, "Who the hell is calling me at 11:00 p.m. at night?" And so I checked the messages the next day. I still have it saved on my phone, dude. It's super funny. Um, and he said, "Don't leave your effing garbage on my in our neighborhood ever again." You know, and it's just like that. And then he goes on Google and leaves a five or one-star review and says, "They leave their garbage all around town." And I was just like, "Dude, you got to be kidding me, man."
>> Yeah, it's pretty. What? You just reported the one star yourself and got it removed?
>> Yeah, I reported. I said, "I've never worked for this person before. It looks like they're just harassing me." And Google—
>> Maybe the H word is the one that gets Google a little afraid that like, cuz what's interesting is we got a one-star that was unjustified, too. Like complete nonsense. And, uh, we, I reported it like three or four times for myself. Never got it taken down. So it was just up there glaring, gross, like terrible, not relevant review. Never, they never used this, whatever it was, probably competitor. So what we did was like a couple months ago, I went on my company group chat and I sent the link to the person's review and I said, "Every single person, right when you get this text, open that review, open report review, and report the review as," like, "it was," we all, we, I wanted because we had tried it before and it didn't work. We made everybody say, "Report the review as spam, not the other options." Like, "Just report the review as spam." And I think we had like maybe 10 to 12 people do it. And I woke up the next morning with it gone.
>> Yeah, you mentioning that. We did that for that one. So, I have to do it for this one, too. But I kind of want to leave it up because I—
>> I actually don't. I like, dude, that review is like my Christmas light company has a one-star review that says, um, like, "These guys are, these guys are ridiculous. These, these reviews have to be fake. $950 for Christmas lights. That's insane." And I'm like, "Oh, no, no, no, no. Leave that review. If that's the one star, like, thank you for pre-qualifying all of our customers for me." Like, and so I just responded like, "Hey, like, sorry it was out of your price range. That's our minimum. All of our guys are fully insured, you know, paid well, all this stuff. Like, that is our minimum to do a Christmas light job in the middle of November. I'm sorry if that was out of your budget." And like, to me, that's a win of a one-star review. Now, if you had a bad one where someone's like, "These guys came out, they did shoddy work, they're dishonest with their billing, stuff like that," like that's something that needs to either be rectified by buying the customer a bottle of wine and going out and fixing that and getting that review fixed. But if it's something un, like completely unwarranted, like a fake review, I'll get that removed. But that one star, I'm like, I don't even want it removed. I just keep it.
>> Yeah, that's my, uh, that's my take too, you know. Um, Google didn't used to have like the newest and the lowest and stuff, but, uh, I used to think before they had that, I used to think that like if you get a one-star review, um, and it's just one, they have to scroll through all of the good reviews before they get to that one because naturally the human mind wants to see the negative first before the positive. And so they're going to see all that positive before they get to the, but now Google has the like lowest button and this and that. So—
>> Yeah. And it's another really interesting trend because you're in Seattle, which like, dude, you have fierce competition for painting in Seattle. Like that is—
>> With a truck on every corner, man.
>> Yeah. And so what's interesting is like the fact that you got ranking that high with a relatively new business compared to a lot of your competition. Like you're ranking to the point where you're getting 10 inbound leads for free a week. Like, dude, you know the math. You know the math for painting businesses on like Google Paperclick. Like your cost per inbound lead, like phone call on Google Paperclick is going to be $3, $400, a a legitimate conversion, like something like that. So it's like you're telling me you just got three to $4,000 of free leads a week off of something that's all you had to do is get photo reviews. But the one thing that I wanted to to showcase on that, cuz I think you're like a poster child for how to do Google right, is if you go look at your Google page and you let Google just show you the most relevant reviews. I counted and of your first like 12 reviews, nine of them have photos. And what Google is saying is the most relevant reviews, meaning whatever Google's algorithm is saying is like, these are the best reviews. These are the reviews that tell the story the clean, the clearest, nine out of 12 of your reviews on the most relevant one have photos. I do not think that is coincidence. I think that is exactly the algorithm in Google screaming at us that we value businesses that are getting constant photo reviews.
>> They want to be re, you know, Google wants to be relevant like any other social media platform. So they, they like that stuff, man. So—
>> Yeah. And I mean, if you think about yourself as a consumer, too, it's like what's going to resonate more with me? A 500 review page with every, it's a bunch of five stars with no text, no photos or anything. Or a business with 89, 88 reviews chalk full of like stories and photos. Like that's going to resonate with me way harder on the trust scale than a re, a business page with, you know, 15,000 five stars with very few photos.
>> Yeah, that's true. That's, I mean, dude, to be honest, when I'm looking for mechanics and stuff like that, I'm always going straight to the reviews. Like, so I, every time I go shopping on Google, right, I try to think about that and try to fix my page to that.
>> Yeah, that's okay. So that's really interesting. And so we were talking about this offline, but like we were, like Matt and I before we started recording, we were talking about like high IQ buying behavior or high IQ behavior for like a business owner, like IQ, EQ. And so one of the things that I think is like super telling with every million-dollar or bigger business that I work with or talk to, when I talk to the owner, typically they all have this really common skill, which is like they have this ability to take themselves out of the owner chair and like actually walk themselves through what the buying and shopping experience is for the customer, not as the owner, right? Because when you're the owner, you're like, "Oh, most of our leads ghost us and mostly blah blah blah blah blah and we pre-qualify here because people are annoying and blah blah blah." And it's like that's owner talk. It's like the, the customer, the prospect does not care. Like—
>> They don't give a—
>> No, they don't give a about what you go through. They don't give, they don't care about how many people go to. They don't, they don't care who you are until you make them care who you are.
>> Yes. And so what, what's interesting is like, even you saying that, it's like you're able to take yourself out of the owner chair and really sit in that, like, what is the buyer experience through my company? And it's like all the stuff you talk about, like the Google page builds a lot of trust, when I get on the phone with them, like, you know, the things like, I want my kids yelling in the background, I want to humanize myself to them, I want to frame them for the in-person sale. Like that is not unique to you. That is unique to every successful business that I ever talk to.
>> Yeah. And I don't, and another thing I don't do is I don't wear polo shirts with my logo. I know that's like a big no-no with like a lot of coaches. They always say, "Oh, you got to look professional and stuff like that." Dude, I wear this and show up to the estimate, dude. And dude, like I try to, that's my one thing I, I really believe in is humanizing myself as best as possible. My guys though, my guys, they wear the polo shirts and stuff like that. But that's, you know, they just want to be look professional. They're older. They want to, you know, all that stuff. Me personally, I show up like this,
and, uh, I sell the job right then and there, you know, and I talk to them like normal, like normal human, man. I think that if we start, uh, overanalyzing, I mean, it's easy, dude. One of the best books I've ever read was how to have power and or it's either how to have power and confidence in dealing with people or how to have confidence and power in dealing with people and it talks in there a lot and it's like only this big, dude, and it talks in there a lot about like these fundamental stupid remedial things that you just do and how you treat people. Um, so I don't know. It does, I don't believe in like me personally, I don't believe what you wear, what you, you know, what you wear is going to determine the sale of the job cuz I've outsold sold CertaPro and was more expensive wearing this. See, that's really interesting. And like, so being in the weird position I'm in, like with 350 businesses at Home Service Accelerator, I talk to a lot of business owners, right? Like people will disagree with that. Like a lot of people disagree with that.
And you know what's funny is like at the end of the day, if you're not ripping $150,000, $200,000 a month in your painting company, like maybe Matthew has something that to that, right? And so that's like my always thing is like, even if I hear something from somebody where I'm like, I disagree with them. The only thing that I can go back to is like, if I was a painter doing 40k a month or 30k a month in peak summer and I heard you say like, "I actually sell this way," and I'm like, "Oh, that's wrong." And my knee-jerk reaction is like, "That's wrong." I'm not even going to hear it out. It's like the only thing that matters is the result. And like you guys are crushing with, like, that's the only thing that matters. So if it's working for you, it's working for you. Personally, we, I have my guys, uh, I have my guys rip out in like polos and all that jazz, but that's just our—
My guys do too, and they like it. It's like a status thing for my sales guy. You know, he drives around in a wrapped car and he looks, you know, he feels good and stuff like that. And I want to create like to where my employees feel like they get what they want out of their job and that's what they like to do. So, I buy them like the nice like Carhartt polo and, you know, Impact with the P right there and it looks—
Um, but I guess I'm just a rebel.
Well, you know what's interesting is like, there's nuance to every process, right? And so like what you were saying, and I think that this is a good, this is like a really good detail to to keep in that like if people remember what you said 15 minutes ago is like part of your sales process, you tell them you're the humanized owner coming out there. The owner coming out there. And I do think there's something to you as the owner going a little bit more casual whereas all of your staff is dialed in, buttoned up, branded. And so maybe that's the nuance, right? Like—
Right. Yeah.
I can like. So for example,
in our, in our like peak season, you know, whatever else, like if I have to go and do something, we have a broken system, right? Like if I need to go personally go make a repair, then the business isn't operating correctly. I haven't hired the right people. If I have to go put out a fire with a customer, like 99% of the time it's probably because like so I did not hire correctly. We have a process issue, whatever else. My managers, my crew leads, everyone else should be dealing with all that. My office staff should be dealing with all that. But then there comes the part where every business owner is just honest and like, we have a Cardinals player who spends like high 20k with us on Christmas lights every year. Like and it's like when my guys punctured 20 something times in his irrigation line and flooded his entire yard.
I'm going out there.
Yes.
Like I am as the owner going out there and I just rocked out there like it wasn't about go showing up branded and like pretty. It was about like going out there showing face as the owner because they know that we're a bigger company and like the fact that they get the owner out there makes them feel like, all right, they, they messed up, but—
They're fixing your wrong.
Yeah, we're fixing our wrong. And so even we could sit here all day in our ivory towers as owners and talk about like my systems are rock solid and perfect and blah blah blah blah blah. The end of the day I rocked out there at like 6:00, 7:00 p.m. at night to just save face, fix as much as I could, apologize, try to make it right, and then assure them that this time tomorrow morning there will be landscapers out there fixing this. There'll be irrigation guys out there fixing that. Like that's the kind of thing. And so I think that that line between like owner casual versus like employee casual is a clear, a clear distinction. Um, but, you know, everybody's different.
No, I, I believe in that, man. Like, you know, you're right about that. If there, if you have to show up, there is a broken system, but like going there. Um, and that's cool, dude. That's an integrity thing. I do that, too, man. It's like showing up to the big fires and not just showing, cuz you, I trust my guys to put it out. I trust them. But showing up as the owner, dude. Those are the best five-star reviews is when the customer, something goes horribly wrong on the job. Horrendous. And you show up as the owner and you're like, "Hey, yeah, I got a plumber coming out here. I got, you know, the electrician coming. I've got this. Hey, I'm going to buy you a new this or, you know, I'm, I'm going to take care of you." And then here's like, you know, a gift card, you know, whatever, right? Um, and they leave the five-star review and they say, "It started off horrible, but this is what they did to fix it. And this is a very good company of integrity." You know, and so like, I, I strive to, I'm not striving to get those reviews, right? But event, but if I do get a five-star review because something horrible went, you know, bad on the job, I think those are the best reviews because when customers read that, they're going to think differently of you. Definitely, like another humanizing thing for sure.
Yeah.
And I, yeah, dude. I think that's, I think that's really interesting. Like, I, I think that's like when we, when we think back to like our worst customer interactions ever and you just put it on like a piece of paper like, how bad was it when it started and how did it end? Like most of the time you can find a way as a scrappy owner to fix the problem. So like I had a, I had a customer two, three years ago who, like my guy royally screwed up on his house. Massive, massive install. Royally screwed up. Dude was mother effing us. My manager at the time actually told my office to ghost the customer without telling me. Like, which like my office was like, "Uh, what? Manager no longer works with us, obviously." Uh, but my office was like, put in a really bad spot, you know. And then finally she called me. He was like, "I was told to ghost this customer if he calls." And I was like, "Uh, yeah, no." And so then I had seen, you know, all the interactions. This guy was like being told it was going to be fixed. You know, five, six days go by, never fixed. And so eventually the guy was like, "You guys are the worst company ever." Like he was so pissed. Like, "You guys are terrible." Hadn't left a review or anything yet, but like that was like, I went and bought this fancy ass bottle of wine because he was rich as hell. So he has to be fancy to make it actually hit with them. And like I went out there myself, put it at the door with a with a handwritten note. And this was like two or three years ago and they're still our customer to this day. Like they're coming back this year again. So they're like a four or five-year customer now. And it's like that was like the dude was literally cursing my name and now he's paid us for like three more years. So it's like no matter how bad it can get, you can fix 99% of the problems. Now, every once in a while, you get the Karen, like you talked about, you know, having like a Karen where you walk everybody through and you said like, "There's no pleasing you." You told a customer like a certain point in a nice way. I said, "Look, u, this job's botched. It looks like, um, I'm sorry. I'm gonna try to fix it, but I guarantee you because I just knew her attitude, right? Because I've dealt with, when you deal with customers so long, you can tell like they're, they're all typically, there's groups of different customers, right? Right.
And I was like, "There's no way I'm going to please you. There's no, there's nothing I can do to make this better. There's nothing, there's no amount of primer and paint that's going to do this. You're going to, everything's under the microscope. Even the smallest little thing underneath the cabinet where you can't see it, you're going to, you, it's just magnified, right?" Um, and so yeah, that too. But, you know, you're speaking of like these horror stories. Uh, last summer I did, now that I think about it, I was on the brush for like a week. Um, this exterior just went sideways. This guy's a state patrol guy, state patrol cop. Um, it was his rental property and, uh, sub just, it was, it was over, dude. And then I hired other subs to come fix it. It was done. And this guy, it was under a magnifying glass, but he didn't believe. So, I said, "Look, I'm going to show up this week. I'm going to fix everything. I'm going to come and I'm going to fix it." Right? He, he's like, "All right, whatever." And he doesn't. Me and him were like yelling at each other. I'm yelling at a state patrol guy. Like, me and him are going back and forth like we're yelling. Not the best part of being a business owner, dude.
Um, and so at the end of it, I said, "Look, I think you're partially right, and I, I want to make this right, and so we're going to, we're going to, I'm going to show up." He, so I show up every day. He shows up every day because he's the landlord. He's fixing stuff. I show up every day. I'm fixing. Show up every day. I show up. Friday comes along and I said, "I'm about done, man." And then he, he looked at me and he said, "Um, I actually started tearing up." He started tearing up. I was like, "Look, man. This is not how I want to leave my company. I want to be a good guy. I want to be a good company." He's like, "You know, I looked at your reviews and this, I wanted that experience that these other customers had and I trusted you." And then he's like, "Uh, then, you know, we're going back and forth and stuff like that." And, uh, he said, "But you, you did make it right, Matthew. You did make it right. Um, I don't feel comfortable paying you, though, you know." And so he's not going to pay me. And I said, you know, cuz he felt like he didn't get his money's worth, right? And so we're going back and forth. And so we agreed on a lump sum, right? I agree for a two-year warranty. He gives me this much. And, you know, I didn't make all the money back, but the one thing that we did, we walked away. We shook hands. We, you know, hugged each other, stuff like that. Um, but I, he was just blown away because he didn't think I was going to show up to fix it because of how many times he's been burned. And I showed up every single day in my painter whites like fixing it, sweating my ass off, you know, in the August sun. Um, just to try to make it right, dude. So, like I get those types of stories, man. And there's, I mean, there's multiple times like that. And that's the thing that people don't realize is that you think you can start a business and everything's easy, man. And it's not cuz you're dealing with so many different personalities and if one thing goes wrong, I mean, it leaves a bad taste in the customer and the rest of the job you're trying to make that up.
Yeah. And it's like this is the reality of like putting stuff like this on the internet is most of the time when business owners talk, it's all sunshine and roses all the time. And people are very, they're very slow to share stories like that because why would they, right? It doesn't make you look amazing. Yeah, dude. It makes you look like you're a human, I guess. I don't know.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, everybody likes to paint this like perfect image all the time. And, and I think that's super valuable for people listening is like, at even at your size. And the, and let me just spoil it for everybody. The bigger you get, the more volume of interactions of human beings you're going to have. And the more interactions with human beings you're going to have, you're going to have more chances of meeting an absolute nutcase who is impossible to please. And it's like so much of that is an ego check thing. So like I think about in both businesses, like I, if I think about the way I interacted with angry customers back then, it was like a lot of the time if they were wrong and I knew they were wrong and they were just being a dick, I would try to get the last word in just cuz it's like an ego thing. And then it's like as a business owner, that's like the, so much of being a business owner is like ego checking. It's ego checking with employees. It's ego checking with customers. Ego checking with, you know, how good you think you are versus how the business is actually operating, how good you want to be perceived by, you know, the people around you. And it's like now, if we have a customer interaction, the last thing I want is like to get the last laugh. It's like to, to be proven right. Like I don't want to be right. All I want is, I don't want a one-star review and I don't want an angry customer and I don't want my employees to think that we're running like a dog operation. But it's so funny, like that's just something that happens at scale cuz like the worst possible thing is that guy leaves you a one-star with photos and makes it look as bad as possible and that's on your Google business page forever because it's legit.
Yeah.
So, it's very, very interesting. I appreciate you sharing that the, the God's honest truth. But let's change gears really quick and we'll just, we'll go for probably maybe 15, 10, 15 more minutes.
The thing that's interesting about you is like obviously the sales process is dialed in. Like you're closing, you're closing a lot of work. You're subbing it out. You're making a lot of
money. You're, just let's just call it what it is. It's a lot of money. Uh, specifically on the customer acquisition side for someone that's a painter and maybe they're at your level or a little bit lower, or they're in any other home service trade. What is working marketing-wise for you? Like, if you can run it down, you're running Facebook ads, your Google Maps is working. What else is like, what's working right now for you?
The one thing that, uh, so we got Facebook, we got goo. Well, we don't even do Google ads. That's the thing.
The Google Business. Those are all organic.
Yeah. But, uh, another thing that works is, uh, to be honest, like seeing build, like seeing condos and stuff. Like, we just got a big lead, like a whale, right? Um, and it was from the condo next door. They live, the residents live there, and the condos next door to them was getting painting quotes or whatever. And so I got that lead because I stopped because I seen the guy outside, like moving in, and I was like, "Hey man, you need a, you need a, you know, a paint job?" And, you know, like, here's. And I was just shooting the with him for like, probably 40 minutes, dude. Just talking about life and like, oh, you know, you just moved to Tacoma, this and that. And, um, I got that lead from that, right? And another thing is, if we have ongoing jobs, I drill it into my guy's head to go knock all the doors in the neighborhood, right? Go knock all the doors in the neighborhood. We put flyers up everywhere, right? Um, and, you know, just that simple stuff. I, you know, and when we knock doors, we're not trying to ask for a sale. We just say, "Hey, we're in the neighborhood, and if the guys, if any of our painters give you attitude, if they park where they're not supposed to park, um, here's our card. Go ahead and call Matthew. He's going to take care of it." Or call Brian, he's going to take care of it. And the customers, uh, it's not so salesy, right? And the customer, they're more like, "Oh, okay, cool." You know, "Hey, by the way, you know, since you're painting their house, you know, can you take a look at our house, too?" You know, or like, we want to paint this, or we want to do this. And so, um, that's been helping out a lot is that door knocking. The door knocking specifically.
Are you? It's like a lot of guys in like, uh, the like a lot of the contracting type trades call it like the, pardon my dust campaigns, where it's like you apologize for like the, the pardon our dust. We're at the neighbors doing the pool. We're at.
I'm, I'm the master at that. I try to do that very well.
And the A-frames that that I learned from you, those help out a lot.
For sure. It's just like an explicit invitation, kind of thing.
It's blaring. It's like, I painted it gold so it matches our like logo. I painted the whole thing gold.
I saw that. It looks sharp.
Yeah. Um, and yeah, that's pretty much it, man. Just simple. There's nothing fancy or any secrets. It's just work that people don't really want to do. That's all it is is repetitive work.
And it's funny, right? Because when you're newer in business, like even when you and I were newer in business, you know, I think I think we both started our companies the same year, actually, 2020, right? Yeah. So, uh, we probably joined, we probably went through the same problems at about the same time. And it's like, uh, when you're younger in the business, you're like, you hear a thousand different ways to market. It's Google PaperClick, Google LSA, Google Maps, Facebook ads, Facebook organic, Instagram, Instagram DM campaigns, realtor outreach, go to a BNI group, yard sign, A-frame, you know, whatever else. And it's like, dude, there's Thumbtack, Angie. It's like, dude, there's 20,000 things that I could do, but I'm a firm believer, and it sounds like you're a firm believer, that it's like you don't do a million things one time. You do one thing a million times. And it's like, for you, it's like Facebook, you're able to do it a million times because you're getting a good ad. You're building multiple creatives till you find the winner. And then you are trading Mark Zuckerberg dollars for eyeballs. Like, plain and simple. And if you make it work at $20 a day, you make it work at 40. And when you make it work at 40 a day, you make it work at 100. And you just scaled that up to like, aren't you spending like $5, $6,000 a month on Facebook ads?
Yeah, about six, $6,000. And I don't think that includes my roofing business. I started my roofing business around $2,500 a month. Uh, I think I have to raise it. So I'm just trying to figure out and get creative. I've been kind of slacking on the content for the roofing. So, uh, this next week, I got to make more.
Yeah. And so it's funny. So like, I think what happens with some people, and you've actually, we've talked about this in HSA a lot, is like, guys will start a Facebook campaign and they'll start it at like $50 a day, and then it'll work. So, it's like $350 a week, and then they go, "Okay, what else can I do?"
Add another $20.
Like, what do you mean, what else can I do? It's working. Like, don't try to find the new unicorn. Scale that one till it breaks. So, it's like, if you're $50 a day, $350 a week, go to $100 a day. Go to $75 a day, and then go to, you know, $600 to $750 a week, and then just keep going. And I think it's really, I think it's really interesting that people like, let me just spoil it for everybody. They all work.
Yes.
There's a reason they all exist. They all work. But when you start diluting yourself and you like keep like spreading yourself out, I'm like, "Oh, now that Facebook's working at $50 a day, now let me go hire a Google pay-per-click ad agency. They're going to charge me, you know, $1,500, $2,000 a month, and then I'm going to spend another $1,000 a week in that." It's like, scale the one until it breaks. Now you have your limit, and now go on to something else. And so yours is like, you're doing six figures a month, and it's pretty much Facebook organic and then a bunch of referral and signage campaigns. Like, that's pretty much it.
Yes.
Facebook ads. Facebook ads, I should say.
And I actually, you know, when I worked from, as a project manager and estimator for, uh, the last painting company I worked for before I started my company, he used to just get calls on the office phone all the time. And when I started my company, I was like, I can't wait until I just get a call from like customers that just know me. And that's actually, I'm trying to figure out what to put in drip jobs to call that lead, right? But that's actually starting to happen, too, where people are just calling my cell phone and I'm just like, "How'd you hear about me?" And they're like, "Oh, we just have, you know, your flyer laying around the house, or we have this, or, you know, we heard our neighbor down the street got it done." That's getting kind of cool, too, to where it's just like, I don't know, man. I'm trying to get to my goal is to get to where I have 20 calls a week like that.
Yeah. Where it's just like free. Cuz this, cuz the temptation, too, is like when you get Facebook working, when you get other stuff working, the temptation, too, is just to stay on the paid ad hamster wheel. And it's like.
I just, uh, yeah, speaking of that, dude, that's wild that you brought that up because I just had a meeting with my team about that. Um, I said that, you know, I'm not a firm believer in like, oh, the economy is going to tank and this and that, cuz I believe that how hard you work determines how much money you make, no matter what the economy looks like, right? But I do, you know, you get kind of like iffy when leads start to slow down and you see other painters not getting leads, right? Like, all my subs are like, "How are you getting all this work? We don't have one piece of work, right? Like, we have nothing." And I'm just like, "Well, just keep working for me. I got you covered, you know?" Um, but, uh, I told my team, I said, you see how they're doing that and you see how the leads are kind of slowing down and that, like, we're not really closing too well, um, like last month, right? I said, we have to get creative. We can't just rely on Facebook ads. We can't just rely on Google. We need to go out there. We need to start getting creative. We need to start door knocking. We need to start like going up to like property management companies. We need to start cold calling general contractors that do big builds. We need to start doing this, this, and this because you can't, like you said, you can't just rely on paid ads. You have to rely on your hard work and sweat, too. And when the economy does slow down, if it ever does slow down, right, and you did all that work in the back end until the time it slows down, you're going to be busy while everybody else is suffering because they just relied on one specific thing the whole time.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think that that's like a, excuse me. I think that's a, oh my gosh, I got to cough. I think that's really interesting, too, because just in like the Discord and everything else, people talk about like the economy all the time. It's like,
Yeah.
Control what you can control, whatever else. I mean, you're seeing yourself like, okay, painters around me are are not generating as many leads, and you're like, I'm generating freaking 10 organic Google calls a week and, you know, everything else. It's like, something's working for you. But I got curious about this, and so I was, born in '95, so I was 13 in 2008 when the market like really went bad, and it was tied to housing. And so I started doing the homework on like, how bad did it get for home services in that time? And it's like, most trades fell by 15 to 25%. Like, that's like in those times. So yeah, I mean, that's, you know, a quarter. Now, like, more construction-based trades, we're in the higher, like high 20s, low 30s. But like, I think people have this fear that everything's just gonna like, or they have this kind of made-up, fabricated thing in their mind that like, it could just one day go to zero,
Right? And I think that the worst ever crisis financially in the US that was tied directly to housing, like it was a, it was a market crash tied directly to the housing market. Not the stock market being inflated, not anything. Directly to the people we serve.
Yeah.
And like, the worst ca, the worst worst cases were like high 20%s in terms of like year-over-year dips.
No. I don't, I don't like you. I don't believe in the, oh, the economy. I don't believe in all that crap, right? But I'm always, I'm more of a prepper, right? So I'm more of like, I'm going to do this work just in case.
Does that make sense?
Yeah. So like, but yeah, I'm, I'm with you on that because like, I've met a lot of contractors from 2008, right? And they were like, "No, we were fine.
We were a little slow, but we made money, you know?" And I'm just like, "Oh, okay."
Yeah. And I think that like, if you talk yourself through that, like, okay, statistically speaking, it's it's basically impossible for it to go to zero. Like, the economy will still, especially now, if you want to get like super deep in the weeds, it's like, you and I both sell a premium service. So this is why I tell everybody, like, probably geared towards the premium services. If you look at like, who's going to spend money through a recession? It's people who have a lot of cash. So I probably wouldn't want to be the bub in the truck that's selling $1,000 paint jobs and saying like, "I can do this paint job for $40 an hour."
He's going out of business.
Yeah. It's like those are the guys that get hurt. But it's like, if you have a brand that's solid and you sell to upper middle class and high high income areas, it might dip a little bit, but you're not going to go to zero. Like,
If anything, if the market crashes, the people who are sitting on cash actually make a lot of money. So it's like, rather go after them.
Yeah. Exactly, man. So that's that's my whole philosophy, too, dude. Is just like, I don't believe in all that stuff and just jazz, but, you know, like I said, I'm also a prepper, so I'm on both sides of the spectrum. Yeah, for sure. I, I'm kind of that. It's like more of a protective strategy, like, you know, uh, prepare for the worst but expect the best kind of thing. That's kind of the way I look at it. And it seems to work, this far in life.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It seems to work so so far. Uh, okay. The thing I want, I ask every single person I interview on this. Uh, and I think it's a great way to end everyone. If you could go back to five years ago when you were starting this yourself, or four years ago when you were starting this yourself and like, just getting it going, what do you know now that you feel like would would deeply have benefited you then? Like, what would you go back if you had a time machine and teach yourself, teach Matt back then?
All the stuff that I know now. Okay. So, um, to be more, to kind of explain that, um, I wish I would have just, cuz I started off on like, I started off in the trades like working like, you know, building and doing that stuff. I would have, um, I would have put more, I would have found people to put more responsibility on to do the labor portion as employees and had better systems for that and went out and marketed myself way more. Cuz I feel like if I would have done that, I would be bigger than I am today because if I would have just let the painters paint and I would have went out and marketed, marketed more and then learned more and, uh, did certain stuff and like not invested so much in tools, but relied on workers to have their own tools and stuff like that. Um, I feel like I would have gotten very far if I would have gotten off the brush just way earlier, like, you know, within the first six months, if I would have just delegated and then went out and built, like marketing more. So that, that's that's the only thing that I would have changed, really.
Yeah. That's kind of that dynamic we learn over time is like, there's a difference between being busy and being productive. And it's like, in the early stage of the business. Yeah. Like, in the early stage of the business, you being on the brush felt productive. And now you're like, "Oh, being on the brush was busy, but it wasn't productive for the business. Someone else could have done that. Then I could have tripled down on marketing."
Yeah. I would have been like, I feel like I would probably be at like five, six, seven million right now if I would have done that.
Yeah. And it's hard for a new guy, right? Because like, we think about, you know, you're usually strapped for cash in the beginning. And so the idea of like these, your baby, you know, your c, your first couple customers, you know, your first 50 customers, like your baby, it's like, I want to make sure it's perfect and get it done right, whatever else. Now you are in a position where you're like, "Yeah, I know sub, I got the subs dialed. I'm, I don't need to go out and be on the brush and just do it." But it's like, that just came with reps. And so I asked that question to guys that are more experienced because I do think there's a dynamic where a lot of the time people could hear you and I talk like that all day long and they still will just have to experience it for themselves. Like, we you could say that there could be a 22-year-old painter here right now that just hit his first $20k month and is like aspirations and dreams to be you, and they could hear you say that right now and like the numbers that you talk about just like willy-nilly like, yeah, you know, $100, $200k months in the summer, whatever else, like that's like their dream, and you just talk about it casually. They could hear you give that advice and it still won't resonate with them until they learn it in two or three years themselves. So, I just like challenged somebody because I was the same way. Like, I remember telling, I remember telling a, like business coach or something one time, like, everybody tells me that like the money won't buy me happiness. Everybody tells me that like the big business won't buy me happiness. Everybody tells me all that stuff. I'm just going to have to get there and experience it for myself. Like, I will, it will not resonate with me that all of these guys are saying it. It won't resonate with me. I, it will not hit home until I experience myself. And I did. And so I could sit here and you could sit here all day long telling these guys like that this is the answer if they could just take 20% and just like listen to what we're saying, it would help you exponentially. But I'm a realist. I know they probably won't.
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's the only thing really, man, is just that. And, you know, what's funny is I just made a, a video on my Instagram. You probably go check it out. It's a, I've seen somebody else do it, so I kind of copied them, but it's for painting. Uh, first-year contractor versus five-year contractor, and it's just, it's like, you know, it's just night and day, dude. Just like what you used to do. Like, you used to let customers just walk all over you your first year, and then the fifth year, you're just like, nah, I see through you. No, you don't have real estate friends. Stop lying to me.
Yes. The dude, the, most common one is if any prospect asked you for a discount in return for referrals and their market like, "Oh, I have a huge rolodex full of just like, oh, dude, I'll be a referral king for you." They asked for a discount that I'm still waiting on my referrals.
Never had one. Never had a customer that asked for a discount and said, "I'll refer you to everybody, I'm super well-connected." Ever turn out to actually be a referral machine or be well-connected at all, ever. It's always the quiet ones that just write the check and then they become your biggest fan from like the sidelines. Or like, I have this one lady on my Facebook follows me religiously. Never gotten a job done by me, refers me everywhere.
Super fascinating.
It was weird because I just had one conversation with her on Facebook because she was having trouble with a painting contractor or something that they promised her or whatever. And I was just like, "Well, I can't do it for free or this and that, but like, this is what I can do." And I guided her through it and stuff like that. Freaking loves me.
And that's another thing to think about, too. Sometimes when people message you on a social media that won't like hire you or something, just be nice to them and answer their questions. They, they, they will, you'll get referrals that way, too.
For sure. Yeah. It's just, I mean, it's just, it's in your community. It's like they're people that are have friends and neighbors and whatever else in your community, even if they're not a paying customer. But it's hard because it's like, again, what you talked about earlier, they could be so contractors can be so transactional. They like, if they're not getting the sale, they're like, next, you know? But there is something too. If you have a hundred positive interactions with people over the course of a year, course of a couple months, it's going to work in your favor.
Exactly. So.
Yeah. Well, dude, thanks for hopping on, man. This was super helpful. I think I think a lot of guys will get a lot out of this. Um,
Do you want to? We can. They can find Impact Painting on, uh, Instagram. Just Impact Painting Services.
Impact Painting Services. I got lucky with that.
Yeah, that's that's that's a good grab.
Yeah.
All right, man. Well, cool. I'm going to, I'm going to cut it off there and we will, uh, we appreciate it.