Transcription
On per capita income, it is low compared to many middle-income economies. So when we say that we are one of the fastest-growing economies, but our per capita is low, how do you explain that?
Both are true. I mean, both are statistical facts. We are a fastest-growing country.
No, I mean, you have a huge population base. So you are a $4 trillion economy and the population base is 140-145 crores. So naturally when the per capita income is is lower, but per capita income has also grown at a much faster pace because our per capita real GDP has been growing faster. So it is it is about the direction rather than the absolute number that matters. Absolute number is low, we all know that that's a statistical fact. But the growth in per capita incomes has also been as strong as the growth in the aggregate income.
So what is the structural constraint for the reason for this per low per capita?
No, it is not low if you look at how low it was 30 years ago. It has come up in a big way. That's...
You are talking about Shreya Prayag right now. Exactly. You know, so...
No, I'm saying the the population growth is 1, 1 and 1/2%. The real GDP growth is 7%. So the per capita income is growing at between 5 and 6%, which is a good thing.
Okay.
Right? My my point is the per capita income feels low in comparison to other developed countries because your population base is larger. It's a statistical fact. But we as long as you keep on growing your GDP and as long as you are providing opportunities to people to be participate in the growth, then per capita income growth will also pick up and as it has been picking up. I don't see a problem in this.
Why are Indian billionaires leaving India? There are n number of writers who are saying that Indian billionaires do not feel safe. They're getting their children to open family offices in Dubai, Singapore, elsewhere. They want to leave the country. They don't get the quality of life. They don't have safety, tax terrorism, various reasons why...
I think these are complex phenomena and we can't reduce it to just one or two pet explanations. People do it for multiple reasons. I mean, look, there was a time when you know, people might have gone because India was not giving them opportunities, but that is not the case today and we also don't take into consideration how many people are coming back etc. Nor are we taking into consideration that exodus that happens from many countries. So we are not putting it in a comparative perspective. A, we are not putting it in a comparative perspective to how many were going out earlier, how many are going out now, is that improvement and in also we don't compare it against people who are coming in and also with what is happening elsewhere in the world. So I think you know, you can we shouldn't cherry-pick this information.
Don't have the numbers. Nobody has the numbers of companies...
It becomes a matter of personal perception and a and a personal prejudice or or one facet of the argument you want to put forward.
Mhm.
So I don't think we should be I think to the extent that there are genuine issues which we discuss plenty in our conversation. Ease of doing business, the regulator's regulatory mechanism and the tax administration being predictable, stable, continuous. We need to do all the right things. People may still leave for different reasons. You can't stop it. Then we So ultimately our goal is not to look at these outcomes but to look at actions that you need to take in any case.
Mhm.
Okay. That's the way I would I would respond to you.
Negative. I mean, there were several waves of people who left, right? The ones that in recent memory we have are in the 80s who left. Now for the during the dot-com boom and all that when the software guys who left and things. Now when we talk in terms of wealth creators, their third generation or second generation even, if they don't believe in the India story and they leave, do you think it's offset by the people who are coming back and believing in the India story?
Look, that's what I'm saying. I'm a bit uncomfortable answering this question because it is it is a very it's a very partial view of the situation. The third generation may not be interested in continuing with the business and they may be more we have read about this third generation problem in different societies that normally third generation usually you know first generation struggles, second generation you know preserves or grows and third generation enjoys. That's what we have read in general. So there could be multiple reasons. I don't think we should pick this up and say it is a it is a reflection of the problem of the lack of confidence in the government. I'm not sure how that line is drawn so easily. I I I find it difficult as an empiricist I find it difficult to accept that at face value.
Cabinet ministers that we speak to as journalists, they always say that the Prime Minister has that focus...
Yeah.
Viksit Bharat.
Right.
That that is like single-minded goal that everybody is being told and he tells people. Um when you sit with him, do you at any point of time does that figure in conversation? What if we don't reach, what if we fail to reach that target? What is that What are the metrics matrices that you see that these could indicate failure and how do you guard against that?
No frankly in my in my conversations and I do speak to him in terms of a rhythm of about 90 days every every quarter or so, in fact the conversation is not about the outcome but about the actions required. He focuses on what is that we need to do. For example, nuclear energy, if energy security is important, he said let's let's privatize energy. So even though in 2015 this government was the one that made it more difficult for private sector and foreign participation to come in, they have now opened it up. They have removed the civil nuclear liability provision which were extremely stringent and coal gasification and then the semiconductor mission and the deregulation drive, and then even this comments he is making about obesity and consumption of less edible oil, etc. All these things are various actions that would lead to. So, in my conversations with him, it is not about the goals and numbers, it is about the steps that need to be taken today. He's focused on the effort that we need to do. So, because he knows that the outcomes will take care of themselves if we continuously keep our eyes on the actions that we need to take at every step in time.
Okay. Semicon, uh energy security, these all will show results immediately and already showing results. But, what are those reforms that we are taking uh steps today which for next 15 years maybe we are not going to see it, but we must take it right now, even if we haven't taken it. I mean, if what what should we do?
Example, things like uh skilling.
Mhm.
It will take time for you to skill the...
Mhm.
Skilling, for all that matter, health outcomes. As a society as a whole, as a country as a whole, these are all the actions you are changing the reimagining the Indian education system. Uh these things will take time to show results. Uh or for that matter, uh any even semiconductor you are saying it will not show results today or tomorrow, it will take a few years for it for you to become an advanced technology player. So, some of these things will have an...
No, but we we are already designing uh for China, we are designing for the world. So...
No, in terms of in terms of...
Three years back and already we are doing it. So, at least some uh things we are showing up, right? Okay, we are way back. We are 20 years too late in starting it as compared to say a Taiwan. But, at least thoda bahut we are doing. But, what is it that we should be doing? Like, for example, say administrative reforms, police reforms, judicial reforms.
All these things we need to do, but I would say that is All the examples that you mentioned are all the ones that we need to be addressing, which will take time to show. The the regulation we spoke about, land reforms we spoke about, making land less expensive, or the the floor area ratio improvements, and then the skilling and education, health out All these reforms will show outcome in a period of half a decade or a decade or longer, but those actions need to be taken. I'm glad that you mentioned judicial reforms as well, because the time it takes for justice to be dispensed.