Transcription
Uh, now, very pleased to say, uh, that our next guest is the former health secretary Alan Milburn, who's been looking into this big review, uh, from, uh, the government into what is going on with our young people. So, he's a man, I should say, who's done an awful lot of work on social mobility, uh, in your time in politics, as well.
These statistics you found are simply unbelievable, I just say. I I find them quite shocking. A million young people not in education, work, or training. 58% of them have never had a job.
>> Yes.
>> Uh, what is going on with this generation?
>> Well, they are stuck in a perfect storm, and if we're not careful, they're going to be a lost generation. You know, if you go back 20 years, that number was four in 10. It's now risen to six in 10 of young people age 16 to 24 who've never ever been in work. So, the problem used to be youth unemployment. If you go back down the ages, it's now not really youth unemployment. These young people, about 60% of them are not looking for work. And if you're not looking for work, and you're not in work by the time you're 24, honestly, by the time you're 34, 44, your life chances are really ruined.
>> And what Why is this?
>> It's a perfect storm, I think, that that this generation is sort of suffering from. You know, the nature of the labor market has really changed. Entry-level jobs have gone. Think about the Saturday job.
>> in a cafe or whatever you
>> I was a newspaper boy, delivery boy. I got sacked I got sacked, by the way.
>> What did you get sacked for?
>> Uh, cuz I was I was like a very adolescent boy. I couldn't get out of bed, and I was supposed to be delivering the morning papers.
>> Wouldn't get away with it these days.
>> But but it taught me a very big lesson. I've never been Well, touch wood, I've never been sacked since. But, um, so, those jobs have gone, and now young people feel like, you know, that first rung on the career ladder, it's more out of reach for them, and they're left in this absurd catch-22 situation where employers are asking for work experience, but of course they haven't had the opportunity to get work experience. So, and this is where they get really frustrated. The really great thing, the good news, look, there's a lot of reasons for pessimism, but the reason for optimism is when we surveyed these young people who are NEETs, a horrible term, but not in education, employment, and training. Um 84% of them want to be in work and want to be trained.
>> see, I was so struck by that stat. 84% want a job, right? Or education. I just feel like the part of the social contract used to be, if you work hard at school, university, in an apprenticeship, you get a job at the end of it. And it feels like that social contract has basically broken down.
>> Yes, I think that is absolutely true. And honestly, as I've been around the country talking to people, whether it's parents, grandparents, employers, schools, et cetera, businesses everywhere, this is the most visceral issue that I've known in 40 years in politics or public policy. I was going to say this a concern, it's actually a fear, I think, in society now amongst parents and grandparents about the future of their kids, about their ability to get a job, a home, a decent career, a good future. And that's about AI, mental health, the after effects of the pandemic, all of this lack lack of opportunity in society. The social contract is built on a very, very simple basis, which is you put in effort, you get a reward. Each generation should do better than the the previous generation. That's a contract that's been broken. Now, our job of this generation, we've got to fix it. We really do.
>> It feels almost like a kind of tinderbox with that social contract breaking down. I mean, are you worried about, you know, in future generations if we don't sort this out, you know, social unrest?
>> It's not so much social unrest. What I'm really worried about is that people think that, you know, that contract you talked about. I was brought up by single mom, and what she always taught me was, you know, from a pretty poor background and all that, you know, I grew up on a council estate, but she always said to me, if you put in effort, you get a reward. And I guess from in my life, you know, I've been very, very lucky, but it's all been really about work and purpose and mean That's given me meaning in life. And And this is a generation that if we're not careful, they're going to be written off. This is going to be the bedroom generation, stuck in their bedrooms with higher levels of anxiety than we've seen before. When you talk to young people and it's like, you know, they're self-frustrated about this. You talk to young people and they're doing dozens, sometimes hundreds of applications for jobs. They hear nothing back. And it's the silence that kills them. It dents confidence, but it also kills hope.
>> Um, how much of this is down to AI, do you think?
>> Um, not yet, I think. So, we So, so it there's a there's a real risk around AI. AI will create jobs as well, but it will of course will unsettle the labor market and change it. And that will be a big fear that people have.
>> Can I ask how much of it you think is due to government policy? Cuz some businesses are saying, "Actually, part of the issue is it's more expensive to hire people now
>> Yes.
>> at those low-paid jobs."
>> Yes. I think that has an had an impact, undoubtedly, that is the case. And, you know, the government's got to be very careful cuz if you want to maximize jobs for young people, you've got to minimize the risk for the employer.
>> And what specifically do you think minimum wage rise? Do you Do you talk about national insurance contributions or both?
>> So, I think it's all of these things together, you know, so every time an employer takes on a young person, it's always a risk because they're unproven. So, the job of government is to minimize the risk, maximize the incentives, but we shouldn't kid ourselves. You know, the changes that I've described in the labor market, they haven't just happened in the last few years. They've been going on for in some cases decades. Apprenticeships is a good example. The number of apprenticeship starts amongst young people has fallen by a third in just 10 years. So, there's a there's issues not just in the welfare system, but in the education system, the health system, and what we say. Our core conclusion is the systems that's supposed to be helping young people from education into employment are no longer fit for purpose. They're not working, and in some cases, they're making the problem worse, not better.
>> I was really struck by what you talked about uh, when it comes to phones and social media.
>> Right.
>> Uh, saying that, "Look, there's been this big increase in young people claiming sickness benefits, particularly for mental health issues like anxiety, they're not snowflakes. This is a real issue, but it's driven by the fact that I'm on the phone all the time. So, what's your feeling on a ban for social media from the
>> Well, the government's looking at that and, you know, I don't know where they're going to go, but we will pronounce on that in in the autumn. So, we're gathering the evidence at the moment.
>> Don't tell us what you must have a bit of
>> The evidence points in one direction. Look, what we've had a small team of people going around the country talking to NEET young people. These young people are not in education, employment, or training. And they do this exercise where they start a conversation saying, "Okay, what time did you go to sleep last night?" 2:00, 3:00, 4:00, 5:00, sometimes never. So, this is a generation
>> on the phone.
>> They're on the phone. They're on the phone. And the evidence that I've seen, there's a brilliant guy called Professor Peter Fonagy, and I really relied on Peter's research cuz, you know, he knows far more about it than I do. And what he says is is distress is real amongst young people, and it is leading to functional impairment. So, this is lack of sleep, you know, lower concentration levels, and so on and so forth. This is a real thing. It's not a fake thing. They're not making it up. This is a more anxious generation.
>> And I'm I mean, look, I know you don't want to say before you pronounce it, but it feels like you're saying the evidence is pointing on one way when it comes to social media.
>> pointing in one direction. I really genuinely think it is. I think this idea that you can have a generation, particularly of young kids who are sat in their bedrooms, you know, late at night, sometimes early in the morning, doom scrolling continuously, and that not to have an impact on them. That is I think that defies logic.
>> Do you think Keir Starmer gets it?
>> Yes, I do. Yeah, yeah, no, very much so. And I think, you know, Pat McFadden, who's the welfare secretary and has really been championing this work, he commissioned my review. He's up for a really big change.
>> Um you obviously worked very closely with Tony Blair. You were his health secretary. You were kind of seen in a way [clears throat] as kind of Mr. Blair right in a way. I know that was kind of Tony Blair, but you were number two, if you like. Um I was very intrigued to see what your view was on his intervention yesterday.
>> Well, Tony is certainly still capable of making an argument and causing one as
>> [laughter]
>> he is pretty good at that. He's always worth listening to and I think I think what he says about you know modern politics which is for it to work and for the public to believe it, you've got to have an agenda and you've got to have a plan. I think there was one thing missing from what he said. You've also got to have a cause. There aren't many causes left in modern British politics. This is a cause, the cause of the next generation. We had all the opportunities in the world in my generation. We really did. We were very very lucky. It's shameful that we're not providing those opportunities for this generation and the consequences will be calamities in my view if we don't.
>> I know as journalists we're not supposed to talk about the elephant in the room which is this kind of shadow leadership contest, but I guess is this your kind of rallying cry to Keir Starmer, Andy Burnham, Wes Streeting, everyone to say this should be your cause?
>> matter who it is and frankly we're talking to politicians across the piece. I was talking to Helen Whately before who is the shadow work secretary as we came into the studio this morning. I spoke to Helen yesterday about this. We're talking to all the political parties. You know, this should be an issue that genuinely is an issue for the nation that actually brings the nation together. And when I talk to employers, young people, schools, local politicians, local charities, people are as concerned as we are about this and they want to more importantly they want to do something about it.
>> I should have wrapped about five minutes ago, but I find this issue so interesting. I am going to squeeze a very cheeky one at the end. Keir Starmer
>> Mhm.
>> Should the Labour Party give him more time or is it time to actually look at someone else? And I'm really going to duck that and say that's outside my terms of reference. Oh, come
>> [laughter]
>> on. Do you see I went into politician mode there? You were being You're taking your politician hat off for the whole of the interview. Come on, what you reckon?
>> Uh I look I I the the question really isn't a question of leadership, the question is is a question of cause. You know, that's what I want to say.
>> Has Keir Starmer got a cause? Cuz you need a leader as well, don't you? You need a leader to sell the cause.
>> So, Keir is writing about it in the in one of the newspapers in The Times this morning. You know, I know that this is an issue that he's really bothered about. And the question is, not are you bothered, are you going to do something about it?
>> Okay. Um great to have you on the program. But thank you very much for being with us. And I'm Mel B.