What's up, wealth builders? Today, I have got a real estate investor who has done thousands of deals, but his deals are a little bit different than your typical, you know, flip a house, wholesale a deal, buy an Airbnb. Like, we've heard about all those things before, but this guy actually specializes in getting all of the nasty, dirty, latigious lawsuits, everything. He finds ways to get deals that everyone is ignoring or don't know how to kind of make work.

I've got Logan Fulmer. What's up, man?

How's it going, Ryan?

Good to see you.

Yeah, thanks for the invite.

Yeah, so I kind of introed you, but give me a little bit of background about how the heck you even got to this point.

You know, I was just this kid getting into trouble like everybody else. Just didn't know where they're headed. Um, went to college and thought I was going to get rich and got out and got paid $36,000 a year working for my uncle and was like, super disappointed in that.

What'd you get a degree in?

Business. My dad wanted me to be accounting general business.

Management. It's the easiest way to get out. Yeah.

But I spent a lot of time networking in college. That was fun. You know, I had a couple random jobs and I wound up in the oil field. I'd finally gotten like clean, sober, got my life together and I actually inherited about a million bucks like early on. So, it was a big mess. I wasn't prepared for that.

How'd you inherit it?

Grandma passed away.

Got it.

Dad passed away right after. So, like he didn't have a chance to blow the money, which he for sure would have.

Right?

Wound up in my hand. And me and my brother and sister just bought houses, Porsches, and lots of things that I shouldn't have bought at that time in my life. Long story short, it took me like three years to burn through over seven figures as a mid-20s guy.

Wow.

Really stupid. Um, so long story short, I get sober, finally go to the oil field and I get to work out there and like learn to have self-confidence, self-esteem, value of hard work. I'm actually earning real money. Man, that was tough, dude. But it was a great place to be. And I wanted to try to get some more of that money that I had before.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. People like um they talk about, you know, man, dude, my family had nothing. You know, I'm starting from such a bad spot. And it's like, yeah, but you also get the chance to to earn perseverance and go through trials and all these things. Then you like see these trust fund kids who they're wrecked, dude, because they never had to work. They never earned anything. Like it was just all given to them and they blow it. And you know, for a lot of them, it just keeps coming and so they never like have purpose. And then you're you're kind of like in between where you got some money and you blew it.

Well, the challenge there is so I grew up, dad he was a CPA but personality problems, alcohol problems, runs in our family.

Yeah.

So he didn't really have much resources. So we were living, I mean, we've been we've been evicted by the sheriff and my dad's seller finance house when I was getting off the bus and they're loading my stuff on the curb. Like I experienced that as a kid.

Yeah.

So we didn't grow up with much at all. Mom did the best when she was a single mom. Wasn't great. But then all this money comes into her bank account. I wasn't prepared and I was in a bad place.

Yeah.

But having those tough times for sure is what allowed me to figure out I don't want this anymore. So that was one of the more important parts of me anything. For sure.

Yeah. So you go in the oil fields, you start like earning a living really for the first time.

Yeah.

How does that lead to real estate?

Dad was a CPA and while he was a mess of a CPA, he did have these clients that were wealthy and they were they all had some sort of business that they owned it um or real estate and I thought maybe I want to do that. So I'm looking online just trying to figure all that out and I start going to San Antonio, which is so you got Midland and Odessa, two bigger oil fields in the world in Texas and I end up working out there where I come to San Antonio every couple weekends just getting a little time off.

Yeah.

Um, and I'm just trying to find some I saved up a couple hundred grand at this point. I'm scared to lose the money. Just like the first time that it was just going quick. Now I'm like, I don't want to lose it. Living like a miser and a little RV.

Yeah.

Stacking up money.

Um, and I start to see the east side of San Antonio. These lots are $5,000. Seventh largest city in the United States. I got a couple hundred grand. I can buy a lot of these. But my biggest fear was the downside. I'd already had this money. I flipped a couple houses when I had the money in my bank account. Didn't last long, didn't do well because I made terrible decisions and I was so worried about losing it. So, I'm looking at this saying, this is an infill lot, single family, 5,000 square foot in the seventh largest city in the states. If I buy it for five grand, what's the probability that goes down in value?

Low.

Right? My downside is sign is severely limited.

Goes to four.

Bingo. So, I don't lose five grand. I only have $1,000 at risk, not five.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, I just, you know, the addict in me goes deep. So once I decide this is it, I go knocking on doors, buy a couple dozen of them, blowing hole savings and I'm hoping like I'm hoping something happens. And

There was no like reason why you chose Atlanta then dude this is cheap and this is a big city like let's just do it.

It was cheap and the taxes were low. I'd gone through financial problems in the past and the tax burden was like $200 bucks a month a lot or $200 bucks a year a lot.

Yeah. Yeah.

So my job can pay these taxes all day long. I'll never risk losing these.

Yeah. Not like a rental where you do have a mortgage and you know more risk.

But you got to find these tenants. All I don't want that.

Yeah. So you buy all these lots and what happens?

I get laid off in the well I'm about to get laid off in the oil field and this realtor calls me makes an offer $532 Dawson. One of the first ones I bought for $10,000.

Uhhuh.

$190,000. And I'm like, holy cow. Like, is this real? And it was. He closed on it in a couple weeks for his client. What I realized in those couple years I owned that pro those properties the market had moved. This was in 2013, '14 range. So the market remember was recovering, lots of off-market stuff happening in this neighborhood but not much on market and instantly I'd recovered almost the whole investment in this portfolio.

So wait, one lot sold for how much?

One $190.

Now, I thought you said he offered $10,000.

No, no, no. I was in it for $10,000.

You were in it for 10. He offered 190.

It was two lots, five and five. I'm in the whole thing for about 10. And I did spend about $10,000 rezoning it. I just thought this is what people do. It increases value. I'll try it. I saw some big developers in it. So I went and did the zoning case myself. Dude offered me only like $200,000. I thought

That's crazy.

Yes. At that time I thought, okay, like I'm probably not a poor oil field hand anymore. I have I know there's value in this portfolio because I almost recapitalized from this one transaction. Like I'm on to something. And then I got laid off.

Yeah. At that point, there's a fork in the road. You know, this happened a lot of times in your life.

Yeah.

Am I going to go back to the oil field or am I going to do real estate?

So, you choose real estate.

Bingo.

What happens from there? You just start selling off more of the lots. Are you looking for deals to redeploy?

It wasn't really clearcut at that point. I was I was a little nervous. I thought house flipping was still going to be a way to generate cash because I I knew I could sell some of those lots, but I obviously have to replace this inventory otherwise like I It's not a business. I made a good investment, but once this is over with, like what am I going to do to continue? So, I started finding places like New Western and the local wholesalers, house flipping and that was okay, but I needed some capital.

Yeah.

And while I had some money, I still had more equity than cash. And a dude that owned a lot next to me was like, "Hey, he's this local CPA." And said, "Hey, my clients are always looking for places to put money."

So, all right.

I go, "Yeah, go from flipping $100,000 house to a $500,000 house." And the $500,000 house was a mess. I lost $50,000.

And I'm finishing up and I'm coming out of pocket $50,000 to pay this lender at closing. I'm just so dissatisfied.

You're like, "Dude, I'm going back to land. This sucks."

Well, you know, that's actually part of the story.

Yeah.

So, that happened about six months later, but I'm coming to the table and I'm closing and that CPA is like, "Dude, I'm impressed. A lot of people would just run off." I'm like, "What do you mean? I made this commitment." He's like, "I like that. You want me to show you how to make real money?" And I'm like, "Please. I had a plan and now I don't." So he said, "Let's go foreclosure auction." That was it, dude. He was buying them at the auction, putting them for sale by owning the sign, selling them within a month for $20 to $50,000 markup.

Wow.

And he was running a CPA firm. He's a partner there. And he was like, "Look, I'm out of time." I was like, "Well, show me this model. Let's split it. Hand me the cash. I'll go do the work. Keep me from screwing up and let's go 50/50."

Yeah.

So that was like the next rendition for 6 to 12 months, maybe. So he funded all your deals. You just bought them at the auction, bought them right.

Did all the dirty work.

Yeah. But there was there was stuff about this that I didn't quite understand yet because I just hadn't been in it long enough and it was nice. And, you know, his transactions that he was tax advising on were for like hundred million dollar and half a billion dollar transactions. So he was extremely sophisticated financially, super bright. So he taught me a lot about business that I hadn't learned yet, which was very important at the time.

Yeah. So, you partnered up with him for like a year and then I assume you had enough capital or you kind of got the gist of it like what happened?

You know, I'm he and I still own the business together. 50/50.

Oh, you guys are still partners?

Yeah.

Okay.

You know, my mom would get mad at me and she'd say, "Why are you giving up half your business?" I'm like, "Mom, I only have a business."

Yeah.

Anything I got, it's 50% better than nothing.

Yeah.

She didn't get that. Well, I value he had relationships like crazy. I just I don't know. I felt like I was going to be better with him, so I just kept going. But we come up with these ideas like we were going to the auction and we used to buy one house or three houses a month. Now we go multiple months with no deal. Competition was happening.

Yeah. People were starting to catch on.

Bingo. So I started knocking on people's doors asking to buy with the pre-foreclosure list. And I remember thinking I was starting to sell some of the lots that I bought at the time, too. And I thought, why don't I go buy some more of these lots? I'm in the same neighborhoods doing the foreclosure,

Right?

The problem I had is folks who used to say, "Sure, take it off my hands for five grand." No more of that. They were like, "Uhuh.

Yeah. It's worth 50. It's worth a hundred."

So, I remember doing 2017 sitting down at the end of the year. We're we're at this restaurant, me and him, and we're looking at the deals all year and asking ourselves, "What were our best deals?" And it was these random deals that had problems. And I wouldn't let any deal go because like I'm hungry, you know? I got no money. I got Well, I got some money, but it's relative.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, I'm hungry. And when when four or five owners would show up, one of them would have a child support lean for not paying like baby mom a child support. One of them got sued for not paying a credit card. All these problems they wouldn't sell. Those are the deals that hadn't yet sold in that part of town.

Right.

So at that time I would go back I realized those were the best deals and thought how can I get some more of these?

So.

And what year was that?

2017.

So you start off buying land. And it's pretty easy. Nobody's doing it. It's whatever.

Yeah.

You don't get lucky, but you just kind of wing it. And

I made some good choices and there was some luck. I couldn't recreate what happened. So.

Yeah, great timing, right? And then you find this partner and obviously you've been with them ever since. It's been great.

Um, and then you start to realize, okay, foreclosures are kind of dying because less people are getting foreclosed on. Big hedge funds are coming in the door buying up everything, right? I saw that in Vegas. You know, I got started in Vegas in 2010 um as a realtor.

You're right in the heat of it then. It was coming right after that.

Yeah. And Vegas had the most foreclosures in the nation. So, I remember um people would tell me about these auctions. And uh I mean, even on market in Vegas back in 2010, the average home was $100,000.

What's the average house now?

455.

So.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah. So, it was crazy. And um, you know, with that, I just remember as a realtor, it sucked because that you make 3%. Like I I'm not an investor and nobody could buy in 2010. Everyone had been foreclosed on. No one had capital.

Oh gosh.

You know, you couldn't get listings because no one owned houses. It was all foreclosures. So like in Vegas, I think 90% of the listings were foreclosures. That was after they had already been through the auction and no one wanted it.

Yeah.

Oh my god.

It was crazy. So, um, long story short, I remember all those TV shows started to come out and a lot of them were in Vegas, um, where they were going to the auctions and buying these houses for like $30,000, you know, houses in Las Vegas.

On TV like, uh oh, what's up?

Well, I'm just like, how are they even doing that? Like, I thought $100,000 was a lot of money. I'm like, dude, these houses are $100,000. They're getting them for 30. I don't know how they're doing this. Um, and anyways, long story short, I'm in the business for a while. And then, uh, 2015 was when I started flipping houses. So, I went five years where I didn't flip at all. I just was like a realtor doing stuff, not really having success. I started flipping couches and doing all these other things. And then I come back to real estate in 2015. And this time around, I now understand investing more because I go to like Bigger Pockets and all this stuff. And I was like, "Oh, okay." Like, I I get what was happening back then. They were going to the foreclosures. Well, at that point, what started to happen was, well, actually way before 2015, um, the hedge funds came in because the hedge funds came in and they started buying up every house. Like before you could go to the foreclosures, my buddies would tell me about it. They were like, "Dude, we would be at the foreclosure buying houses for $30,000 houses in Las Vegas, 1500 square feet."

Yeah.

Normal neighborhoods. He's like, "We would buy them for $30,000 back in 2009, 2010, 2011, around 2012 or whatever. The hedge funds came in and they started paying above market value at the auction.

This is a swing city. It just swings so hard up and down. They knew it was coming.

They knew. And so they just wanted to get as much inventory as they could that they were like, "Guys, we're not flipping this." Like, "We'll pay at $110,000. It's still way undervalued. At $130,000, it's still way undervalued. We'll buy every single one." And so all the flippers who only bought for foreclosures, they got wiped out because they didn't adjust like you did. And they're like, "These guys are overpaying. They're such stupid."

So, that's the trick on your way up. We struggled with that. And I had to just bite the bullet, look at charts and say, "Over time it keeps getting more. I'm going to keep buying up the curve." And I'm glad that I did.

Yep. And that's what they did. So, they pushed everyone out. Blackstone, all these guys, they came to Vegas, bought them all up, sat on them till COVID and in COVID, they, you know, they had all these properties and they sold them for three, four paid for them. And everyone thought they were stupid.

They weren't smart enough to know what those guys do. But also those guys information.

Well, and they also have access to hold for 10 years. Most guys don't have that. You know, you put your cap that that was me back then. It's like I can't follow that plan and wait for 10 years. I can't afford the mortgages. And

Today, if you really believe you're going to get 3x over six years.

Well, I'd find a way today. But I'm saying back then, I didn't know how to do any of this stuff, right?

Nor was I smart enough or anything. But yeah, I mean, they had the capital, they had the resources, the knowledge, and they just sat.

So that made it so hard for operators here.

Yeah. I mean, so what happened was in 2010 here, you know, guys are buying at auctions, that goes away. Then in 2012 was the short sale boom. Um, I remember that 2012, 2013, basically they passed a new law in Vegas. It was called like ABA something. And basically they're like, if you don't have all the proper uh foreclosure paperwork and and loan stuff, you can't foreclose. And so basically we went from being the biggest foreclosure capital in the literally the country to foreclosures halted. It was like COVID where it just it literally didn't happen.

Whoa.

Because all the banks were just foreclosing without the right documents and they're like, dude, we can't this is not right. And so what happened was 2012, 2013, I remember I was a realtor, almost everything then became a short sale because all these people were just sitting in the homes and they couldn't be foreclosed on so they're just chilling.

So the banks are ready to make a deal.

And the banks were like, hey, we will literally pay you to leave. So the banks started paying all these underwater people who had been living there for years with no payments.

Dude, they're getting slaughtered. I mean, this these people, they probably bought them with no money down loans for like $400,000. They stopped paying after a couple of months. They live in them for years.

Doing whatever they want, and then the bank can't foreclose because of this new law. And the bank's like, "Dude, we'll pay you $30,000 to leave." It was cash for keys.

Hey.

So, the some people did like do great with that. Um, even though they didn't deserve it. Um, but um, anyways, eventually they passed another law. They were like, "Okay,

Let's Okay, sorry we messed this up a little.

Yeah. Like these people do deserve to get foreclosed on. Like they can't just keep living for free. Um, so they get foreclosed on. And then I remember there was like this HOA foreclosure boom here in Vegas where

All of a sudden um I don't know how it is in Houston but uh they had this super lean priority thing where basically they were like, hey, if the HOA forecloses because somebody's not paying their HOAs, the HOA gets to you know, foreclose and take the home and you can go to auction and pay for that, you know, lean or whatever. But because it's a super lean, HOA supersedes the mortgage, the mortgage goes away.

Yeah, it's a it's a higher priority. Like taxes and HOA are up there with like the game more than God.

But what they tried to debate was that it wipes out the mortgage.

So.

You can wipe. Well, law state law is different. Go ahead. Sorry.

Yeah, every state law is different. But what happened was it started to come out in the news. These people were buying up these HOA leans for like $7,000 on million dollar homes claiming that no, we don't owe a million dollars anymore. We own this home free and clear for $7,000. That's what was happening.

And so then they ended up in litigation for years. And those people who did that were like basically saying, "Well, the worst case is."

Yeah. Well, not even cuz they're going to start renting it right away.

While they're in litigation. They're like, "We're going to make our $7,000 back regardless." And however long it takes, we're going to make that as our like return. So maybe we rent it out for like two years and like

Break even at least.

Break even minimum, make money. And then the best case is you get a free and clear property.

You know.

That's how they viewed it.

You guys have a lot of law changes but this is an important thing that people need to pay attention to. If they're in house flipping or wholesaling, it's a little less important, but wholesaling is starting to matter these days. Understanding having a great relationship with good attorneys, understand what in the heck these laws mean are the difference between you having a big-time upside and you not know what's going on because if you knew how to navigate the laws over the last 10 years here, you can you're telling me the opportunities.

Yeah. And once again, I didn't know what was going on during those times. I'm I'm like new and I'm like, wait, this people are trying to say they could own a house for a million dollar home free and clear for $7,000. Like how? And but you know, some people did end up getting it through and then, you know, a lot of them once again, they passed a new law. They're like, "Hey, no, you can't wipe out a million dollar mortgage because you bought a $4,000 lean." Like,

Wow.

So, anyways, I've seen a lot of crazy stuff. Now.

You still do this crazy stuff.

So, you know, you said basically you you see the same thing happening in San Antonio. you just keep finding all these hairy deals that uh people just don't know what to do with. Like what's an example of that?

So, a very common one would be two owners, either business partners or siblings inherited a property, whatever. Usually, the property, they don't live there. One of them has some bad debts, like maybe they stop paying the taxes, they don't get along. One of them, I don't know, maybe got kicked out of an apartment and he's got a judgment against him. You know, when you don't pay your you get evicted, they go to JP court and get a judgment against the person. Just all this stuff like folks that are at like usually have it together financially more don't have these kind of problems. You start to see it with like a little medium to lower income, some high income, but there's just all these issues. Multiple owners, judgments, leans, breaks in the title chain, missing probates, things like that.

Those make So, in your business, when you guys are trying to cut a deal and you get back the title commitment and there's too many problems on the schedule C, you usually walk away from it. It's not worth it.

It's not worth the headache.

Right? Well, I hear all these folks on social media saying, "I closed a 12 air property and I, you know, they're bragging about all these problems they solved and it saddens me because the thing they usually missed is they didn't go back to the seller and trade them down. They did all this for $20,000 assignment fee. And the first time I started poking around these properties intentionally looking for them. I didn't want to lose money. I was again worried about my downside. So I would go to these people and say, "Look, you and six people own this thing. Y'all got a mess going on here. It's probably going to be foreclosed on for taxes. I'll give you $500 bucks for your share. That's it." And they say, "What do you mean it's worth so much more?" And I say, "No, it's not. Technically, it's not. It's worth what someone will pay for it, and you can't sell it. It's worth $0."

They didn't like that. So I had to find a new way to say that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But effectively the issue is they can't transact. So I would buy it without title insurance and then go buy each person's property interest and then I would go and solve those judgments, leans, strip them, contest them, settle them, and self-release them. When that happens, I'm in something that's worth a couple hundred grand for $50,000.

Right?

And then at that point, I'll go sell it to a flipper for $175.

Yeah.

Then I'm done. But for me, I'm not doing contractors, you know, none of that stuff. The interesting part is I've heard people have done a deal or two like this. But there's no one that said, "I like this better than everything else I'm going to make in my business."

Yeah. So, what year did you finally decide that after a couple or how many times doing it did it make you be like, "Okay, this is like my main focus."

That was 2017 when I had that end of the year meeting of these were the best five deals out of all the 30 deals I did that year. Why would I not why would I want to see if I can make this the business?

Yeah. So at that point 20 end of '17 beginning of '18 I thought I'm just going to look for these.

So your business model was look for hairy deals. You just want to buy them with no title insurance. Uh solve them however long that takes. Once you get clear title, sell them as is to an investor.

MLS.

MLS. You don't you don't even fix them up. You're just like.

I don't really So this is really an asset agnostic approach. I could care less if it's an RV. I could care less if it's a vacant lot. It could be a ranch. I bought an office this way. Warehousing. I bought apartments. Doesn't matter. I'll take whatever. Anything I can get for a fraction of value. I'll take that.

What?

I had this old Jewish business guy tell me one time, "There's no bad." He was in a mediation. He goes, "There's no bad product, only bad pricing."

He's right.

Yeah. Yeah. Everything has the right price.

Yeah.

So, what uh what are exactly are you looking for now these days?

The same. You know, the only thing is I like to look a little bit higher value because.

There's more equity. There's more.

And you know how much work. More work it is.

Less. It's the same.

Yeah.

So I was in 2020. I'll never forget. I got a call from somebody in Austin, Texas. The vacant lots downtown were $500,000 there. The vacant lots downtown in San Antonio were $50 to $100, usually.

I get a call from this guy and he's he's laying out all these problems and I've never done business in Austin. But I remember thinking it's the same work. It's still got six owners. Still the same problems I'm used to. Let me try this deal. And I never like I haven't been to a property in except for when I shoot property tour videos like for Instagram.

I don't go to real estate anymore. Ever.

I didn't go to that property. It was worth see that was about $500,000. I was in it for $70.

Yeah.

$30,000 in taxes, $40,000 to the owners, and $10,000 in legal fees. I was in it for probably about $80. Resold it. Made $400,000. It was the same work. And I thought maybe I should do this in the bigger cities because it's worth more.

But like what are you doing? Are you just looking for properties with lots of leans and you're like that's my property.

Right? So over time after I would string those together, I started to step back and do these reviews after a quarter and say, "What were my best deals?" And I started to find the common thread was delinquency, mortgage foreclosure, tax foreclosure. And we started to get a little bit more sophisticated to be able to run crosses against the uh judgments and leans in the land records and the tax office to see who common names.

Yeah. Yeah. And then from that point, it's just like, okay, so I'm going to pull list of properties that got a lot of different leans that I like. I'm going to cold call them, text them, hit them with some direct mail.

You know, we have to phone call. Well, phone call or text, but like mail won't land. So folks usually when you.

Knock them.

In the early days that's all I did. Yeah. But I started you know, you want to grow and you know today I'm also.

It's not scaling. It's hard to scale knocking.

Yeah, you I got to the point where I was making $7, $800,000 a year by myself with an assistant. So I'm like.

Door knocking.

Yeah. I'm beating the doctors that I grew up with. Like I'm so thankful. But you know how it works. You know, this is good. Maybe more is a little bit better.

Yeah. Well, I think there's ways to make more with less work. So that happened. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's how I use the phone.

Yeah. So everything's just cold call and text at this point.

That's it. Yeah.

And I mean like running the business now, like how big's the team? Like you said, you guys are doing 200 plus transactions a year and they're all kind of like this.

So our biggest transaction year was 2021 or 2022 is before the market cooled. Uh, we did 223 transactions.

Yeah. Interestingly enough, total sales, like price, total revenue for the year has gone down significantly, but profit has grown. Like.

We just did a deal. We closed on Friday. We sold it for a million bucks. We paid $7,000 for the deed and it had $425,000 in taxes.

Got it.

We called the neighbors and we called a bunch of brokers. Commercial brokers. It's an industrial lot, three, three and a half acres. They said it was worth a million and a half, but do I sell it for the $7,000 I bought or I bought it for $7,000. So, do I sell it for a million right now to the neighbor and make half a million after paying the taxes or do I take it down, allocate half a million bucks, hope that I get the 1.5, maybe I get 1.2, you know, velocity and money. So.

Yeah.

Just take the quick buck and moved on.

That's it. So, we moved right through to the 18-day deal. Had $7,000 in it. Five grand in legal.

We made almost $500,000. Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah. So, 25 people in the office, three of them are attorneys. We've got genealogologists. We now have on um.

You have a genealogologist. How does that work? What do they do?

They they build family trees. They're like a complete nerd in the office just like drawing it up.

Really?

Yeah. I mean, we.

How many deals are they working on with family trees?

Oh, 70, 80% of them.

Whoa.

Multiple owners. You're just trying to find errors and.

That's right. So.

How many of them are dealt with death, would you say?

What's that?

How many of your deals deal with death? What percentage?

70 to 80.

Okay. That's why you're just trying to do lineage.

Right? So, we got to the point where we were doing the investigative work and we would kind of hit roadblocks where it really took a lot of additional work. So, we started hiring private investigators and we stumbled across a retired FBI couple. He was an agent, she was a researcher. And since we met them, that's like our go-to source. So, we'll do a little bit of research and if it gets to the point where like we can't find the information like that, then we'll pass it to them and they they give us back everything we need usually.

How much they usually charge to.

Do their thing.

You could have a small a small price of a couple hundred.

Sometimes you can have thousands.

Yeah.

You know, we dug people. We found a guy in a soup kitchen one time.

When you were saying we dug feel like were you digging up?

No, no, no. Actually, a dude went through my coaching program had a body exhumed and did DNA testing last month.

Whoa.

Cost him $18,000 bucks and the judge had to order it.

That's insane. Did it work?

It did.

Wow.

Yeah. These are just the deals that people would normally walk away from. And if you can negotiate it, right?

Yeah. You got to get an insane home run to do all this crap, right? You know, in a couple hundred deals, you know, if we'll do 20, 30 million in transactions, you know, you can tell like the margin what it looks like. I ran a report, like couple weeks ago, one of the companies in the office, I'll explain in a minute, but we have about 150 properties in inventory. So, he's like the most aggressive partner I have, the dude just can't turn down a deal.

When you say inventory, you bought it for whatever. You just got it titled over to you and now you're trying to just work through it.

On that deal, I own greater than 1% of it. greater than I own greater than zero percent.

So that would be inventory. You own some level of the pro. Okay.

So probably 50% of them turn in 120 to 150 days.

Got it.

The other 50% require lawsuits, settlements, mediations, arbitrations.

You know, we're usually done not longer than about 18 months at the worst. There we have a couple of them. We bought a 50% interest in a uh in a community property situation. and there's a divorce about to happen and we funded the divorce and in $6 million estate. We bought 50% interest for $10,000.

From the spouse, but she she alleged his husband abused her. She moved out 15 years ago.

And he wouldn't give her a divorce so she could get new insurance to her new boyfriend. So when we called her, she was scorned. She's like, "If you file for the divorce and do as much as you can legally to get him away from me, I'll let you have this." I'm like, "I can't take it for free. I'll give you $10,000." She's like, "I'll be there tomorrow from Louisiana." Boom.

Wow.

So, that requires you have to file a a lawsuit to clear title, declaratory judgment, blah blah blah blah. That'll take two years.

Yeah.

But our we'll probably be in at a quarter million legal fees.

Wow.

We've given the seller $10,000. We'll probably give him another 40 to to help us with some stuff, but we'll probably make two and a half, three million on that.

Wow. That's crazy.

But that goes back to what you're saying earlier. At this point, we're willing to invest. We're willing to take the ride, and we have the capital.

Yeah. So, how many deals do you think are are tied up in litigation right now that you're just working through?

Um, I'm probably a plaintiff on about 50 transactions. Yeah, it somewhere around there.

And you said you have lawyers on staff who just deal with all that.

So, we've got internal, you have external, external, you've got specialists. Sometimes you're dealing with a very unique situation. I mean, lawyers like doctors. There's just hundreds of them. We'll have specialists sometimes. We're about 50 to $70,000 a month in legal fees on third-party legal and then internally I have to look at what the payroll stuff is.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

You know, house flipping has its ups and downs. And you know, I've flipped at times and I brought properties to market when the market wasn't great and I thought I was gonna make $50,000. I made 10. I thought I was gonna make 100 on one. I lost 50.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yep. But this approach is so important because I was concerned about my margin of safety. If I accounted for every risk, every mistake, every problem, and I still couldn't lose money, I ain't losing money. If I account for all that, I'm probably make a lot of money if nothing goes wrong.

Right?

So, it was really like a risk-adjusted approach from the beginning. I just didn't know how to explain it well in the beginning.

How many have you lost money on where you just weren't able to get it done?

You know, I did some settlements about three years ago. Some of the guys got a little aggressive with some properties in a region that I won't get too far into that, but I lost maybe a quarter million that summer. That was three transactions. I wrote the deal off, gave everything I've spent and the interest I bought to them and just said it's not worth it anymore. Walked away.

Yeah. You just gave up your interest.

I've probably lost on maybe 10 deals.

Right?

But when you're buying something that's worth a very typical deal is worth about $194,000. was I ran a report in Salesforce which our CRM, $194,000 is the typical sale price in that company that has 150 units. $194,000 sale. Average entry point was about 50.

Yeah.

So there's about $150,000 in gross margin. Now we got to take out overhead and stuff like that, but you're still talking a little over $100,000 in net margin on average in that company.

So it's hard to lose money at that, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Even if a couple just don't pan out. you pay legal fees and whatever and the next deal is going to cover it.

You just Yeah. You just walk away. Yeah.

There's a time there are times where it's just not worth it. Now lately we found another angle because creditors sue people like.

I don't know. Two people get into a fight and they sue each other and there's a judgment out there but they never the creditor never went to collect on that judgment. So, we realized by running we're already running searches for judgments and leans and owners, but if these aren't if those leans aren't collected on, you can buy that debt for almost nothing.

Mhm.

Now, you have a claim against that owner. Well, if that owner owns non-exempt property, homesteads are exempt. Different states work differently, but for example, in Texas, if it's non-exempt, meaning it's not your homestead, that property is at risk.

Yeah. So, like there's a warehouse we worked on where we bought a claim against a guy a guy's business for $20,000. Was the the claim was $20,000. It was old. So, there's a bunch of interest. It was like $50 or $60,000. We called the creditor and offered him $5,000 bucks for the $20,000 claim that was now worth $50 or $60. So, we spent $5,000 and got one document that assigned that judgment to us in the land records. We recorded it and then immediately sent a notice to that warehouse owner that said, "You need to pay this $60,000 or we're gonna this is a demand for payment."

Yeah.

He ignored us. So, he filed a RIP in his jurisdiction and asked the judge for permission to sell the warehouse to pay our debt. The dude didn't want to pay.

He wouldn't respond. So, go sell the warehouse and get your money. And if no one bids at the auction that time, you become the owner for the credit bid.

Warehouse worth a million and a half bucks. So, we haven't completed that one yet, but we're coming towards the finish line now.

The dude is just nonresponsive still, man. It's shocking. The guy.

Do you think he's like dead?

No. We've sent private investigators over to go to his shop and pretend like they were customers. He is coherent. He's alive. He's running his business. He's active. Like.

He literally hasn't responded to anything.

What do you think the What do the PI say his deal is? He just.

Man, I tried to figure this stuff out a long time ago. I would hear about I mean, you've you've been around this real estate business where people are making these terrible decisions. They're in foreclosure. They have weird stuff going on. They just stop there.

Yeah. I don't know what's going on with a guy. And every time someone come to my office say, "Logan, here's this new problem." I'm always like, "What's the catch?" But I forget I built this model. I've been asking myself, "What's the catch?" for 10 years now.

People make poor choices, man.

People just aren't uh rational.

You know, another way to look at it is, especially with inherited, I'm not like a good example. Guy that works with me loves music. I listen to it, but I could care less. Well, there are people that are music lovers, but I don't care about it. What about real estate and money? I care about that. There are people that don't care about real estate and money the same way I don't care about music. You would be shocked how people would walk away from property. We'll hide from liabilities. We'll hide from stuff. They just don't care.

Yeah. I tell people that all the time, too. Like, uh, when I'll first explain wholesaling to new people, they'll be like, "Why in the world would a seller do that?" And I'll be like, "Well, there's a lot of reasons." Like, I mean, where do you want me to begin? I've seen every reason under the sun, but you know, number one, um, a lot of sellers are just embarrassed and they they don't want to deal with a realtor. They don't want to deal with people seeing their home. Like, they just want it done. They don't they're not money motivated. They're pain motivated. They're like, "Dude, just get this off my plate. I really don't care what it makes."

Um.

That's it.

You know, there are people who, you know, I don't know, the way I explain it to sometimes, I'm like, you know, if you trade in a car, you know, you're not getting the best price. Like, you know that they're going to make money. you know that convenience, right? So, some people just do it for convenience. Um, then I just said, you know, some people, whatever, man. They just don't really think about it. They're just like, "Yeah, I mean, that sounds good. Whatever.

I don't care.

Let's just do it."

You're right. You know, I'll tell you something that was shocking. I don't know. This never happened.

To me until I really started to grow this business. And about four or five years ago, I got sued several times by children of the parents who sold me their property.

Yeah. And the child paid for the person who had standing was the person who sold to me, the parent. But I'd start getting me in the middle of these depositions and they're making me sound like a monster. Like all this stuff went wrong and like I took advantage of somebody. And then we get the other person in the deposition and the dad's like, "I don't really give a..." Like I could care less.

I'm thinking like, "What are we doing here?" But I had a couple people turn around and change their mind. One guy, this is shocking, dude. It was shocking. The kid was a truck driver. His dad told sold me his share of the property for like 15 grand. It was 17th. So we had to buy all the other owners. They were all on board. One of the siblings called him and told him what was going on. He said, "Tell them to call me. I want to sell." So we send a mobile notary out, an attorney to do the closing. And they're closing on the hood of a car, but it is a lawyer. You know, they're on the east side. The guy apparently tells the son, the son gets mad, sues him. And his defense is he was so high on crack. He didn't know what he was doing. He didn't have the capacity to commence the transaction.

Uh-huh.

So, he wanted to unwind the transaction. I said, "Okay, well, let's start here. Let me get my money back."

Yeah.

Well, we know that's gone. Now, he wants to share the property back. And they sued us.

Yeah.

So, it's a very legal kind of world in this place or in this business. So, we started to create documentation, sign offs, we video closings. We We're not getting around now. We've got a disclosure. It's four pages long. They're they're literally reading it, Ryan, saying, "I understand if all the title and ownership problems are solved, the property could be worth somewhere around $500,000. I realize I'm selling my 17th share for $7,000 because of..." And they list all the title problems. They're literally looking into a camera and saying all this.

Yeah. So that when these people call me with this crazy claim later, I can send their lawyer the video and they're like, "It's over."

Yeah.

You know, I got sued last earlier this year by a multinational white shoe law firm, like a big one.

And I purchased an interest in an estate from an executive. It was an insolvent estate. They were behind like they're going to lose the property to foreclosure. Well, I thought the pro actually, I didn't know about the transaction was over. Guys in the office did the deal, but it was assessed for $500,000. Apparently, my guys ran comps and thought it was worth a million.

Okay.

Well, once the lawsuit Oh, and I'm it for 130 grand. I pay the administrator 130. I was going to pay 30 to the taxes, so couple hundred grand. During the lawsuit, they produce the attorney from the other side during the deposition produces an appraisal that the estate had done years ago. Apparently, the property is worth 2.4 million.

Like, it continues to run. Um, but in this case, we had loads of documentation. The law was on our side. In Texas, the executive administrator has the right to liquidate property if the estate's insolvent behind financially. Like, there's all these exceptions basically. And it's interesting. They alleged fraud. They alleged all the stuff that they do in the typical real estate lawsuit. And they backed off all those claims when we started loading out all of our evidence and had a good attorney backing it up.

Mhm.

So, it can be a shocking place to be sometimes. You can't have thin skin.

Yeah. How much does it stress you out to be in depositions and so many lawsuits and...

...just knowing every deal might end up, you know, not being done, you know, like you're like, "Cool, it's done. We made money." And then, you know, somebody comes back however many...

I'll never forget the first time someone sued me. Process server hands me this lawsuit. I open it. It says, "You're being sued." My name's the top in this special format.

Yeah. I'm getting the bubble guts. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, you're gonna sue me. Oh my gosh, you're gonna take everything. Oh my gosh, we're gonna have to move out of our home. Oh my gosh, I'm going to be poor. My wife is going to leave me. My kids are going to be raised in the wrong place." Like, you go down to the, you know what I mean?

Yeah. You go to like the bottom of like the rabbit hole. And that first couple lawsuits that happen. But at this point, we do everything right. We have recordings. We have documentations. We have attorneys closing the transactions. Like, I'm right. I'm absolutely right. So, it it's no different than any other report. I look at our do internal docket report and I see what's going on, what phase each case is in, what's our budget, doesn't matter.

Yeah. You're like, it's just part of doing this.

But that's from years of this.

Yeah.

And I'll tell you, the first time in about five years my stomach sunk is when that multinational white shoe law firm, okay, these guys ain't playing.

Yeah. But the good news is we had a boutique firm that was like, in my opinion, one of the top in the state for this kind of stuff and we did great. So that builds confidence.

So at this point, um, are you guys, you're talking about Texas. So is everything in Texas? Is everything in San Antonio? Is it everywhere in Texas? What are you doing?

Started in San Antonio, reached out to the rest of Texas because the laws were the same. um started a coaching program about three years ago and realized people wanted to be in other places. So we re started doing all states that were probate alternative states.

What does that mean?

So some states require a probate even if you didn't have a will like Florida or California is a required probate state. There you have to do it and that means it's slower. There's more risk for people to sign up with you and change their mind problems like that. We didn't touch that. An alternative is an affidavit of heirship. So, a lot of states allow an affidavit of heirship instead of a probate. That means it's faster, it's simpler, it's just quicker. So, we we started doing those states because coaching folks wanted it. And then about a year ago, we did a couple deals outside of those states in the probate states and realized, okay, here we don't buy the deed for the property. We buy the interest in the estate because the the heir does not have title to the property before the estate is administered. So, they can't sell you anything. They own nothing.

Yeah.

They own an interest in the estate, but they don't own an interest in real estate. Deed goes to real estate. Assignment form goes to the estate.

So now it's North Carolina, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Texas, Colorado, but at this point that's JV deals will come in and we'll do them.

Yeah. So you're doing JV deals because they're they're finding deals and they're like, "Hey, this has got a lot, so you know, just let's partner up."

Naturally, those are juicier. They're in other states. You have to find a better an attorney in that area that understands it all. But yeah.

Yeah. Um, cuz I know Vegas, I mean, if you don't have a will and a trust, it it goes through probate.

Okay. You're a required probate state.

Yeah.

So, this would be one of the states that we normally wouldn't want to do.

Now, we'll do it. Well, so I can tell you probates are I don't know that this model would work in Vegas because the way it works for probate here anyways is that if it's over a h 100,000 in equity, it it has to go to court and anyone can bid. And so...

Wait, bid?

Yeah.

You're assuming they're selling the real estate.

Yeah.

Because sometimes folks will administer the estate, keep the real estate in their name, and then later sell it. So, I think there's a lot of ways to look at it, but the typical way that it happens out here, especially when we found off-market deals. So, let's just say um, you know, a seller comes to us through our marketing and we realize like, okay, it it hasn't gone through probate yet. You don't actually own it, right? And so, we will, you know, let's just make it it's a simple deal, right? There's one child. They're supposed to get the house, right?

That's no fun.

Yeah. So, simple deal. and they're like, "Yeah, I mean, I own this house. I've been living in it. You know, my parents passed it down to me." We look it up and it's like, "Oh, they don't actually own it yet. It's still in the parents' name, right?"

So, um, it has to go through probate because there's no will, there's no trust, there's none of these things. Here's the problem. Let's just say the house is worth 500K and we're going to buy it from them for, I don't know, 300K. Easy numbers, right? If it has more than $100,000 in equity, we can go under contract with this person. But what happens is it goes into probate and then anyone else can bid above that 300,000 and it goes into it goes into probate. They bid and whatever the the highest bidder is, that's what that person gets and we could get nothing.

Okay? So, you're contracting to buy it through probate. So, let me offer a different suggestion.

Okay? If you're able to trade the person down significantly, they don't want to deal with probate, you could buy their interest in the estate.

Yeah.

And then still go through that process because you're going to get top dollar. And if you become the buyer, you get to sell wholesale and make some money or maybe take it down and flip it. But if it sells for top dollar, you get paid when the estate clears.

Yeah, I I know what you're saying.

But...

I'd have to see how it would work with the law because one thing the the only other way we've ever got around it was they would do something called a set aside.

What's that?

It's a probate term here in Vegas where basically you set the property aside and it doesn't actually have to go to auction. And so you can prove that, hey, there's not $100,000 of equity.

And because it's so low, there's no point for it to go through this process. And so...

You make that case and then the judge just clears it and then now the transaction can happen.

The challenge here though is you want as much equity as you.

No, I know. That's what I'm saying. So in your in your scenario, you're like, "Hey, buy their interest and then when it goes through this probate process, you're going to get bidders and then you'll you'll make whatever they would have made,

right?" So you can either be the buyer if it's the right price you like or either way, if you buy their interest in the estate, you're still going to either be the buyer and have a lower basis.

I'd have to see. I'd have to see because I mean I have talked to every probate lawyer under the sun here in like the last 10 years and I don't know what the law is different versus like how you guys do it in like you said in Texas like you'd avoid normally a place like this.

Ryan, do me a favor and let's talk about this in a month because every lawyer that I talked to all of 2018 that I was like, "Here's my problem. How do I fix it?" Like, "Logan, it's not worth it. Logan, you can't do that."

Man, they all told me, "Don't do it. You can't do it. Doesn't work." and we made a fortune figuring out ways to make it work.

We will stay there's a fine line that's legal and illegal. I will not come close to that line.

Yeah. Yeah.

But there's a lot of options.

Yeah. No, I'm with you. Trust me, dude. If there's a if there's an argument to be made,

we'll go for it.

Yeah.

Um, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to ask my guys about that because like I said, I mean, we've done probates for for many many years, but probate out here is like sucks.

Are y'all uh the state uh government Republican, Democrat?

Uh, it's sometime it kind of switches, but I think we we were Democrat this election.

So, there's some laws that have changed over the last 10 years. The uniform partition of America.

Actually, no. I think we ended up Republican on this last election because Trump kind of won like all the swing states.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, if there was much time where Democrats were controlling, you've seen a lot of laws change in the last 10 years that have caused things like that to happen or required appraisals or lots of notice and their goal is just to slow the whole thing down. And some states get really bad like that. It wouldn't surprise me if that's not a Republican initiated thing.

Yeah.

Because you don't want to congest business. Like people have the right to the right to contract, the right to sell, the right to do those things, but sometimes some of these laws will start to lean into protectionary places and you don't want to get in the way of business.

So, a lot of times there are options. I wouldn't mind looking at. I think it'd be fun. I I'll do some research on the plane home.

You got nothing else to do. You might as well learn how to do it in Vegas. So, I mean, I guess too, like you said you're doing some JVs, but I guess...

...is there just so much work with your current team in Texas that there's no point to market in these other places yourself?

Yeah, basically. You know.

How much further do you think you could go in Texas? Like, if you got a bigger team?

Oh, we're not scratching the surface, man.

Yeah, you're not even close.

The thing is, I also step back to like when I started this, I didn't really have much and I just wanted to not be poor anymore, not have to worry about money. So, I don't have to worry about that today. But now I ask myself like, where is this going to go? Do I care to be worth a billion? Not really. But the way life is now, it's really good. So how much stress and trouble do I want, you know?

Yeah.

The way I built this business was not with a bunch of employees. It was with partners.

Yeah.

So train a young guy who was bright and hardworking but didn't have the capital, the idea and build them up and all right, you go and he'd hire people and he build his operations. There are five of these businesses in our office.

And those partners are running them. They're competent. They're capable. They're well funded now. They've been trained by you.

Wait, so you have five different partners? How does that work?

They just run their own business.

But but like how does it work with do they each get a territory or like what how does that work?

Man, we looked at that early on. We were concerned about it. But if I told you we're not even scratching the surface of this, I would be exaggerating.

Yeah.

There's so much of this out there. So it's a lot of work. We have a decent sized team, but you know, these pipelines can be slow. You can't use debt for these. You have to use cash. So we've been self-funded.

So like these TW you said you had 25 people in office. That's so basically you have like five different teams.

Yeah. Basically.

And the 25 and they use shared resources of the lawyers, the genealogist, whatever. Right. So you have like this parent company thing with the PIs that like the shared resource.

So it's actually like a it's a separate company because I don't want those companies to be one of the things that White Shoe Law Firm said is y'all are operating as a total partnership. All assets are at risk for this deal. And no, we we went through clarifying that no, they're not. It's a there's a shared like overhead entity shared resource that each person shares and pays into to use that like law firms kind of do sort of.

I do that in my businesses right now.

Right? So you got to be real careful the way the legal like the way it's chopped up. But yeah, that's how it works. So like the largest the smallest team has two guys um a partner and then another guy that does acquisitions. That's it. That's a small team. And that guy do a couple million dollars a year in net.

So how does it work with you? You because you have your CPA partner.

Yeah.

So are you and him partners in like the parent.

Yeah. So me and him own 50% of all those companies. So technically I own 25.

Right. Right.

And then you're just finding young hungry guys who who want to learn this model. You guys are funding them essentially.

I mean that it took me about a year, year and a half to train each one. So like I haven't brought on a new partner in years. Like I'm done with all that. It was a great way to build, but I would bring him in, work side by side. I'm knocking on doors, calling with him. Like, we're doing this together. You're...

Teaching him.

Yeah. But during that time, I'm watching, how's he treating his wife or girlfriend? What does he do with his money? Is he out of money every month and he's borrowing and making poor financial decisions? What's his standard of living? Like, I'm kind of looking at all these saying, "Can I be married to this dude in business for the next 30 years till I retire?" And if he does good in business and the answer to those other things are good, all right, let's do a partnership.

Let's officially drive. Let's set up an LLC. Let me capitalize you. Let's build it. Let's go. Yeah. So, the bigger team only has one, two, three, four acquisitions guys, an administrative gal, and then the partner. So, there's seven people in the largest team. That's the one that has about 150 units inventory. You don't need a massive team to do really well at it, but it's very technical, so you have to understand it.

So, what's your day-to-day look like this?

So, I had this guy come up to me at a speaking event, I don't know, about three years ago, and said, "Will you coach me to do this?" I'm like, "I'm not coaching. I don't know how to do that." And he goes, "What if I give you like 30,000 for a month?" I'm like, "And then all of a sudden, the negotiator steps in." I'm like, "Yeah, I don't know." He goes, "How about 40?" I'm like, "All right, I'm listening." Anyway, so I coached this guy for like a month or so, and I called a couple other people that been pestering me on the internet. I'm like, "Yeah, we're going to do this. Let me get a couple people together." And it worked really well. And they were all very successful.

So, I thought, "All right, let me build this." So, it's we coach 100 people a year now, two semesters, spring and fall.

Um, you I've worked on that. I recently started courses, book funnels, ad spin that. So, I've spent more time on that. These guys are running this business. I'm a shareholder today. Like, when they have a major legal problem or I get named individually in a lawsuit,

then you know you got...

...they got my attention.

Yeah.

Otherwise, you...

So, now you're just making content and doing coaching is like the main things during your time.

Yeah. Yeah, we started buying, we bought some food manufacturing companies, a liquor brand, and you know, built a commercial portfolio. Started to kind of do some of that.

Yeah, that's a good question. So, what are you doing with the money that you're making?

Reinvesting it. You know, we live...

...into more legal cases and all that stuff.

Yeah, but I mean, there comes a time where like those companies don't need more capital. There's one of them that always sucks the capital. Other than that, and he's picking up equity, so we're willing to do it. But outside of that, like what do you do with this capital, right? Like most of the time people that get rich in real they get rich with a business and then they invest in real estate, right? You and I decided to build a company that transacted in real estate. That's not really real estate investing as much. It's...

Making active income.

Right. Yeah. It's active, right? Exactly. You're a dealer.

So that's how this whole thing started. But when the money starts to put off, I do I want to dump it back in there? I don't know. That really won't move the needle.

So now it's like we built a commercial portfolio. So we got offices, warehouse.

There's three business lines. The distress stuff that we've been talking about. Started developing land. We stumbled across this massive subdivision that was cut by one of the big builders when interest rates shot up a couple years ago and then we decided to do a business line. We had a couple thousand lots um in Texas being developed right now. We've exited our first one at 355 unit subdivision in Dallas.

So, you're just selling the land.

We buy the land, we entitle it, file the MUD. Yeah.

Sometimes file the final plat.

And then we'll sell it to a big public builder.

Right. So there's that and then we got the commercial cash flow portfolio. That's where all the money goes.

Got it. So everything you're doing is just pure real estate.

But you said you had a food thing.

A guy who buys businesses and turns them around. Worked for an investment bank for years is a friend of my partner said, "Hey, we're buying a it was a white label salsa and barbecue sauce manufacturing company." So like when you go to the store and you see all these different bottles...

Yeah.

...probably 10, 15% of them are all made in the same plant.

Right. So business owner was old, you know, getting ready to sell. We got a pretty good deal, so we bought that.

Yeah. Do you So I mean like obviously it's still 95% real estate. Do you I mean because you're talking about you know one day retiring and you know doing stuff later, but like did you ever get the shiny object syndrome to do other stuff or you're just like bro I just do this distress thing and I'm just going to do this for like 30 more years.

You know, there were times where I looked at it, but I mean, as as smart as some of these things sound, like I'm a pretty simple guy. Like, if something works, it works. And I would talk to all these other people and say, "I don't like that guy's business. That guy has ups and downs. I don't know that girl, she's not doing as good as it looks." Like, yeah, this just worked. And I didn't realize how good it was actually until I started going to events and talking to people. They told me about their business. I'm like, "This is better than that."

Yeah.

And I kept telling myself that and eventually I was like, I must have figured out the best thing. I have the bright shiny thing and I don't want to mess this up.

Yeah. I mean, why even I guess waste time in coaching because you know, you make more doing the thing.

So, there's two major events that happened running as a business owner that were very meaningful to major shifts in my career. And I was in the trenches with the guys running the businesses. Even once they've been built and working, I just couldn't get out of them. It was in my mind. And me and my wife bought a house. Uh, I don't know. We were living in the house and we decided to move out and do this massive remodel. And being cheap, although I could afford it, I didn't hire a GC. I was going to sub it on myself and never do that again. But it put me on that site for nine months almost every day. And I stopped answering the guys' calls and I get irritated. I'd come home, there's like 10 emails from the guys asking questions. I'm like, "Dude, you know the answer. Why are you pestering me?" After nine months, they quit calling. They quit pestering me. And our financials look great. Everything's I have to have some calls with a bank or with my other partner. Otherwise, I'm not messing with this stuff. So, when I came back to the office, I'm showing up at 8 o'clock. No one's coming to my office. No one's pestering me. It was a big change. And then I got a call from that guy at that event. He's like, "Will you coach me?" I'm like, "I got all this time." Like, it was fun for a month or two.

Yeah.

After that, idle hands are devil's workshop. I like sitting. So, I started doing the coaching and I thought, "Wow, this is fun. It works." But the way that's organized now, it's not taking much of my time. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of group stuff and everything, I assume.

Yeah. So,

when a when an opportunity opens up, we take advantage of it. If you build it right, you don't need a ton of your time. You got to keep an eye because, you know, the cat's away, the mice will play kind of thing. But,

Yeah.

So, so that happened. That was a big one. Um, and then when the coaching really started to work, a guy ran some ads for me at the beginning of the year and he's like, "Man, you have a unique offer. or no one has this." I'm like, "What do you mean offering is your coaching?" And people were flooding into it from other parts of real estate. And he said, "Why don't you put together a bunch of online courses and sell them through some funnels?"

You're like, "Whatever."

Yeah, whatever, man. But then he told me about one that he did for another customer.

Yeah.

And I was like, "Oh, wow. That looks...

...that's a lot of money."

Yeah. So that's I've spent probably 50% of my time since summer on like that body of work...

...building that out. Yeah.

So what do you think is going to happen with real estate and uh especially like 2026 as we head in? What's your predictions?

Flip a coin, man. I I could make a prediction. It could be so wrong. It usually is.

I...

...mean, you've been through lots of cycles at this point.

You know, so we have exposure in different places. We got the default market exposure. We've got the new home builders. So, we went to market with a large, you know, third uh $25 million product and it didn't sell for what we were wanting. We got about a third less was our best offer. So, since we didn't use debt, we used all equity. We just said, "Hold on. We're going to pull this off the market and wait. We're starting to get better offers now." But the home builder market is really soft right now. They're not buying land.

They're not paying.

This is that massive subdivision you're talking about.

Where...

...this is that massive subdivision. Yeah.

So, I'm seeing that kind of happen in the market. And then I've got the leasing stuff on my commercial side and I'm watching all these different things and say consumer markets are kind of weak, but the stock market's popping. Interest rates are easing downwards right now. And...

...whether you love Trump or hate him, you know, his things aren't crashing the world. You know, his fights with the other...

...uh nations are like...

...you would think they'd be bringing out nuclear bombs and they're not.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So like with interest rates heading downwards, you would think real estate would come up a little quicker. It hasn't reacted quite as quick because there's a lot of debt load on households.

Yeah. It's still like so slow in single family in most places.

No. Interest rates are coming down, dude. You get a 5% mortgage now.

Over the last 100 years. That's a smoking cheap deal.

Yeah.

So, I'm seeing activity back in the home builders because we're getting higher in offers now on some of our stuff. My gut would say it's going upwards. I mean, I'm put I'm buying stocks that are exchange traded funds that are all in like home building and stuff. I believe that I'm putting my money behind it. But...

Yeah, and home builders are kind of on a different timeline than somebody who's trying to flip or wholesale today, right? I mean, because...

...you got long horizons.

Yeah. Like if they're going to buy your lots right now, they're expecting to sell one to two years from now.

That's right. Maybe a little shorter. So, one of the caveats is we didn't file the final plat. We did a prelim plat and they were saying we're not touching anything unless it's completed or we're buying it cheap.

Yeah. Because we want to start now.

Right? That was it. So that was the big deal. They want to be able to move now. I don't know, man. I mean, I think we're we're positioned in a place where the real estate could recover, but it moves slow, too.

Yeah.

So, what I'll tell you, the way things are set up is I'm always trying to figure out how to not get screwed. Basically, I don't want to lose it all.

You're super risk-averse,

right? And people would say that that's not the case because of this business, because it's an aggressive business, but it's modeled without a lot of risk. So in our properties when the interest rate shot up a couple years ago and we we sold for 70 cents on the dollar, but we're in it for 30 or 40, so we still did fine. So we've weathered these ups and downs. So...

Yeah, I lost millions when uh hit. Yeah.

And well, so we were wholesaling commercial for a little while. We lost money in that little business line for three months in a row. Four months we were finally like, "Forget it, stop." That was overhead. Did you probably lose some overhead in your flipping business, too?

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

So, that is that is the business line we did lose money on the first time. We wholesale commercial for a little while, but...

...outside of that, I don't know. I haven't spent the time looking at what I think markets are going to do because I think we're insulated somewhat.

Yeah. Your your whole thing is if I'm buying 40 cents on the dollar, it doesn't matter what happens. So, you're not really too concerned about it. Whereas a builder has to be ultra concerned. Turned a flipper.

They're like 18, 20% margins. The builders, if they're lucky.

Yeah. It's a lot of work.

Dude, I have so much more respect for public builders now that they can invest hundreds of millions and billions of dollars on an 18, 17% margin and pin the tail on the donkey.

Yeah. But, you know, when you think about their I So, when I think about large companies at scale, it's interesting, right? Because it makes me think back to when I first started flipping houses, you know, let's just say I I didn't actually ever do work myself, but like I could go pick all the materials and get good deals and you know, do get the job done for way quicker or cheaper. And then uh, you know, when you have 20 going at a time, you can't do that anymore, right? And so your your construction costs go up because you just can't really go give it that individ.

Yeah. And I look at what they do and it's like, well, how else are you gonna build a thousand homes this month? Like, you're not gonna build a thousand homes this month at 50% margins. Like...

No.

...so, you know, do you take a,000 at 18% or do you, you know, do you know 10, 10, 15 transactions a month at, you know, massive margins?

Depends on who you are. They can grow big. You know, how the bigger the business gets, the smaller the margin usually is.

Exactly. Like Amazon's making 1%. Like but you know when you make 1% on a trillion it's pretty good.

Killing it. You know that's a risk thing. So for me like there's times where I mean I work pretty much 5 days a week. I don't take days off but there are times where I go in I'm like I want to do this work today. So I'll do some other work not what I'm supposed to do but it doesn't matter.

There's room in our business to like to just not be focused sometimes mess up.

Sometimes I won't work on something that needs to be worked on for a couple weeks. I'll go do something else cuz I don't want to do I still want to be productive, but I don't want to do that.

How do you think you've maintained a partnership this long? Because a lot of partnerships go to the wayside.

I treat them like I treat my first I picked right.

That's that's more important than anything.

That is. Yes. And then I treat them like I treat my wife.

Yeah.

I mean, these are business marriages. Like not into dudes, but like when I met these guys, I knew my parents had failed marriage. I'd seen every mistake in a relationship. And I remember thinking, if I'm ever going to get married, God, I got to pick right. And if I'm going to get involved with a business guy, I want to know him. And I just don't like you hear these stats. Divorces destroy wealth. And the same thing for business. And I don't want that. So I looked for attitude, aptitude, bandwidth, ambition. I was looking for all those things in the people to make sure they'd be good operators. And I try to teach them what I thought they should learn. I wanted to have good people, like really good humans.

Yeah. Every one of those business partners I have, if my wife was wasted at 2 a.m. and I couldn't drive her home, I would let them drive her five hours across the state at home by themselves at 2 a.m. if they wanted to. Everyone ain't worried about it.

I wouldn't blink. Not at all. Yeah.

And if I can trust them with my wife,

Yeah.

I can trust them with a couple million bucks.

Yeah, for sure.

This is the people.

Yeah. Why do you think a lot of partnerships fail?

The people.

It's just choosing wrong from the gem,

you know? Yeah. Gosh. Like you seem to have, from what I've seen online, you seem to have a pretty stable marriage. Y'all spend a lot of time working on it, but like it's got good going concern.

Yeah.

But would you look at relationships younger in your life that might not have been like that or have you always chosen? Well...

Um, are you talking marriage or all relationships?

Yeah. Like boy, girl, boyfriend, girlfriend, marriage.

So, for me, I also got lucky. So, Mindy was like my first official girlfriend.

Oh my gosh. So...

...you just picked well from the jump.

Well, I was also super uh picky. So, like I mean...

...okay.

...you know, I'm in I'm in high school and uh I just knew that I didn't want to date around and fool around. Like I was like uh like as a Christian, I'm just looking for somebody that I'm going to marry. And so in high school, I didn't really date or anything. Um then even in college, like I was like, "Yeah, I mean, unless I see myself marrying this person, there's no reason to do."

Dude, good job. Wow.

Yeah. And so...

...super rare. Very rare. And so, I mean, it wasn't for a lack of opportunities. I had lots of opportunities. Um,

but yeah, and then I found her. She was 19, I was 22. Um, and I was like, "Yeah, she's the one." So, we start dating, then we get engaged really quick, and then we get married really quick, and...

Wow.

...here we are.

Like, I found it. I don't need to look anymore.

Yeah, I'm good.

I would guess based on that, if you use that same like ideology to choose business partners and people to associate, I would think that you'd have a high success rate with business people, too. Yeah, you know, I would say it's been hit and miss. Um, so I don't want to talk bad on any partners or anything like that. Um, one thing I will say that's changed things is uh lots of Well, I would say partners 101 agree that picking first is like the number one thing, right? The hard part is being aligned on like what the future looks like together because I think for me in a lot of partnerships um we just started and it's like yeah like let's just do this and kind of whatever happens happens like let's let's grow it and do well. Um and my life has taken I I really blame myself. Uh, my life has taken such different turns over the years. Like, dude, I was a pro baseball player, then I was a house flipper, and then now I'm a YouTuber, and then I'm couch, then I'm a couch flipper, and then now I'm a golf guy. And like...

...it's hard to be a partner with me knowing that, dude, I'm like so the opposite of you and that I'm like shiny object and like I just do it and I love it and that's what brings me joy. And so I could see like it wouldn't be great to be a partner with me knowing that uh, you know, yeah, I'm going to work on this thing with you but I'm also going to be working on a lot of other things like I can't give myself all to you know, this one thing and there's also a chance that, you know, what if this this one thing's no longer like the best thing anymore and I don't really feel like that much passion about it I'm either just going to be like, "Hey, like let's just keep it running and it's all good for what it is" or I'll be like, "Let's just kind of sell it and move on." and it's no longer...

...worth like paying attention to.

Yeah. Like the longest thing I've done is invest in real estate, you know? So, I've been doing that over a decade. And then if I look at the second longest thing I've done, it's it's teach real estate. That's been eight years now. And so, it's like, yeah, I think I'm probably going to do that for a long time. Yeah. You know.

And I think media, I'm probably going to do media for a really long time. Um,

that might outlive real estate. Huh?

What?

That might outlive real estate in your world.

For sure, right? Like because I think I can do media in lots of things. I don't have to talk about real estate. In fact, I don't even like talking about real estate. So, like...

I'm glad I'm here.

Yeah. So, you know, the golf thing's way more fun, you know, and I don't know. So, I think like with a lot of things, um, just like me individually being so uh I don't know what the proper word is, but uh a good term would be dynamic. Just like always moving into you know, lots of different things. It would be hard to be partnered with me on that front. Uh, and then just the fact that I I think I am like a such an opportunist like the moment I believe something is the best path going forward. I'm like, "Burn the boats." I'm like, "This is the path."

Yeah.

These other things no longer make sense.

H...

...and uh I'm ready to move forward with this path.

Yeah, that is dynamic. There's a lot there. There's a lot. I'm a hard guy to be a partner with.

Speed. Money loves speed. And we've done really well with that in micro ways, but we haven't change gears heavily quickly like fast like that.

I am very fast.

Well, that's good, but you know.

Yeah.

Oh, it's so like let me give you an example. Um, one of the guys who's probably the most aggressive operator was doing the wholesaling commercial for a while.

Yeah.

He had it for a couple years. Market was hot. He's making a lot of money. And when the market the interest rate shot up, dude, he couldn't move anything. Every contract was getting cancelled and he was just like white knuckling like I'm going to fix this. We lost money one month. We had never come close to lose money. We lost money in a month again. By the third month, my CPA business partners over here like fuming. They're arguing and fighting and I'm like, "Guys, I value you two way more than a couple bucks. Let's figure this out. Let's not have a business divorce during a financial, you know, time." And I remember going back to the CPA partner saying, "Look, it's going to take him a couple more months to get work through this." So, he believes he can't fix it. He doesn't believe that yet. Let him get through this.

We might lose three, four, $500,000 doing this, but we made millions together. Let him get there. When he does, he'll have learned it on his own, and we'll steer the ship a different direction, and it's okay.

Yeah.

It doesn't matter. I'm willing to lose another couple hundred grand. It's all right.

Yeah. And by being like kind of a middle ground mediator type for things like that or being willing to let a younger business partner work through some of his troubles because I can see the big picture that helped. Like he's had bright shiny object syndrome and I've been okay with like letting him go down some different paths just not too far.

Right.

But I mean I look at it as like I'm in business with these guys. Like I don't care if I change interest in life. I'm not leaving my wife and she ain't leaving me.

Right. Right. Well, me and some of the guys might have different ideas, but we're going to figure I look at it as I'm going to figure out how to make it work with them somehow.

Yeah.

So, like in those businesses, I'm not that necessary anymore, but I've still got like resources that they don't have.

Yeah. And I think part of my problem, too, is that in a lot of partnerships I started early on versus today is like uh and this is what I see happen to a lot of partnerships too. So, I know I'm not alone in this, but um it becomes unequal, right? So, you know, you're 50/50.

Big challenge.

And then it's now unequal in value. And you know, for me,

but how do you equalize that?

That's the key. Can you continue to equalize like you would in your marriage,

right? Well, I mean, but here's the thing in marriage. Like, we don't need to be equal in marriage. Like, for me,

sorry.

I'm like, "Hey, you know what? I'm going to do way more for my wife than she does for me." That's the mindset I want to take as a husband, as a servant, as all these things. So, um people are like, "Marriage is 50/50." I'm like, "No, it's not." Like, "Marriage is 100 100. I'm going to give you everything I got."

I I hope she gives me everything she's got. And if my output...

...is just so much more because I'm built this way to carry more as a man,

then it should be. I shouldn't expect my wife to do more for me than I do for her.

Like, that's stupid to think even like accept that as a man.

Yeah. I I

understand what you're saying. But like in a business partnership, for example, it's like, um, all of a sudden, like, uh, okay, so my social media blows up, and we have distribution and all these things, and then, you know, let's just, for example, say, uh, you know, I've spent millions of dollars building my brand, running ads, getting customers, all this stuff, and then we're going to go flow them to other businesses that didn't incur those same expenses and, you know, all those things. And if we're 50/50, it's no longer fair. Um, and that's a hard thing to break.

>> Then maybe you change it.

>> No, I know. And I've had those conversations before, like, "Hey, you know, this is no longer, like, uh, I don't know what the right word is, but, uh, equitable, right?"

>> Yeah.

>> Um, or kosher, whatever. But, you know, even then, right, you, you then run into a different thing where it's like, okay, I feel like my value is in, um, that I'm bringing so many customers and exposure and all this stuff, like, which is the most valuable thing in any business is deals and customers and all this. But, you know, somebody else is the operator and they're like, "Well, I'm in the business."

>> And they're saying I'm doing all the work all day and you're not.

>> Right? But you have leverage on your activities and they don't. So, I've had conversations with some partners because there were times when I backed out and markets were changing and things were happening. They're like, "I'm doing all the work, right?" And I've had to sit down and say, "Okay, well, let's just decide. Let's say we split this business up next month. Let's talk about what your next six months looks like. What do you do on month one, month two?" And we walk through that.

>> And because of

>> you can start to see who's got the value.

>> Right? But they also see, okay, they got to do in this land development deal that they otherwise would not have.

>> Yeah.

>> Or I don't know, this warehouse complex. Like, they're in those deals. So, I've tried to balance that way. And that's the thing too. It's like,

>> you're going to get to be on stage in front of a thousand people. You're going to be in front of millions of people. And so like, you know, you're not doing that

>> on your own, right? And so

>> any like for me anyways at this point, um,

>> do you think you're better as a solo guy or do you think you're better with a partner?

>> This is the other hard part. Like, uh, and this isn't to sound like arrogant or anything, but it's like, in most cases, I feel like I can just do it without a partner. That's the problem, too. I'm like, "Okay, like, let's split. I'll just do it. Like, it's not I'll hire somebody. I've got the capital to pay somebody really good. They'll operate it. They don't need to be a partner."

>> I can pay them six figures. And

>> that's experience and confidence talking. So, that means you really, if you're going to have a partner, you've got to have one that's willing to do something that you're unwilling to do.

>> They got a skill I don't have.

>> Yeah. Or they've got like some big opportunity or resource or there's something

>> some open door that I don't have access to.

>> Right? So for me, I'm I have the same feelings in that way in a lot of ways. But there also times where I say, I like to find an idea. I like to put something together. I like to build it, structure it, but I don't really want to run that thing forever. And which is why it's nice for these businesses have been run for years by the guys.

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm not I'm not looking at invoices. I don't know what the hell's going. I'm looking at a financial report and then I get a docket report that's like shows me the key risks.

>> Yeah. Cuz like even in my real estate business, I'm I'm like you. I'm not in it. But you know, I don't have a partner. I just pay a COO.

>> And you've done a good job hiring top management. See, I I wasn't experienced enough to understand how to do that at the time. So, I placed partners.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I've put good top management everywhere where I'm like, "Hey, you get paid really well. Do like do your thing. You'll get some percentage of the upside, but like,

>> you know, if push comes to shove and like you no longer want to be here, like we're not we don't have any messy

>> breakup." Yeah, that's interesting. I like that. All right, let me ask you this. I'm going to turn this back around. So, I'm always involved in like the legal field. You know, we've lobbied to deal with some of these laws in the last couple years we didn't like, but I'm I'm not heavily involved in wholesaling, but I've watched the updates. Everybody's got a new update about what's what in the world is going on and where is it going with

>> the legal field and wholesaling regulations.

>> Um, well, bro, I I don't pay attention either. Like I know that half these guys love making YouTube content around it. Um, I literally could care less. I've never made a legal video about wholesaling or anything. I literally don't research it. Um, every time that I've ever researched it, it's cuz somebody else watched a video like, "Ryan, did you hear about this new law in freaking California or Texas or whatever?" And I'm like, "No, I haven't. Let me ask Chat." And Chat's like, "Yeah, this is what you can do." I'm like, "Cool. That's all I needed to know."

>> Chat should not worry about it.

>> Yeah, like I I really don't care. Um, so yeah, I don't pay attention to it. Uh, I think kind of like you, I'm so focused on running my own business and my own

>> my own personal legal problems and bad deals and whatever that I'm like, "I ain't got time to worry about freaking what might happen."

>> Dude, misallocation of resources, man.

>> Dude, I don't have time for any of that. Um, my my opinion though is that you'll always be able to buy low and sell high. So whether that be wholesale, whether that be double closing it, buying in interest, it's ne that's never going to go away.

>> You'll just mechanically do it a different way if a law if

>> Yeah. Like that water that follows the path of least resistance like it's going to find a way some way.

>> Freaking deals will be done. There's not that will never wholesaling will never stop.

>> I agree. like the idea of wholesaling, right?

>> Yeah, I agree with that. Somebody gave me this old map of San Antonio from like 150 years ago or was it even 30? Yeah, it was old. Oh, super old county.

>> Really?

>> Super old. My old office was built in 1883 and they were developing downtown by then. Yeah.

>> That's crazy.

>> Yeah. So, I saw a land, tax loans, and some kind of trading, an advertisement for this law firm that sounded a lot like they were doing what I do, but maybe on a smaller scale 130 years ago.

>> And I realized, yeah, you're right. This ain't going away.

>> That was 130 years ago.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, I tell people all the time, they're like, "How do you think AI is going to change stuff?" And I'm like, "Heavily into like watching how AI changes things."

>> Um,

>> oh my goodness.

>> Because I I think AI changes real estate like last because real estate is just so freaking slow and outdated and all these things, but it is super important for everything else I do, you know, on media events.

>> What are the biggest ways that you're seeing affect your other businesses? Like the top couple biggest quickest.

>> Um, well, I'll get into that, but to finish the thought, like I I tell people all the time, I'm like, "Guys, real estate is literally the first ever asset class created. God gave Adam land, and he's like, 'Have dominion.' Ever since then, you read all throughout the Bible, he gave Abraham land. He gives all these people land. You got Israel and Palestine still fighting over land that has been fought over for thousands of years. You know, it drives me crazy when people are like, 'It's freaking their land or this.' I'm like, 'Bro, this has been happening for it's none of their land. It's been happening for thousands of years and it keeps changing hands.' That's what happens with real estate. It just keeps changing hands. And some people sometimes pay for it. Sometimes they kill each other for it."

>> It just That's what happens.

>> The the United States, how did we get this land? Well, we took it.

>> That's right.

>> Like that's what happened. So anyways, um, real estate ain't going nowhere. AI is not changing the fact that people will transact and do all this stuff. Uh, that being said, as far as like AI and the rest of my things, it's super important because like the right now this is a digital thing that we are doing and AI is first impacting the digital world quicker than the physical world. And so, um, you know, you just like right now I'm I'm watching it every day with Sora how quickly it's making these fake videos.

>> Oh yeah. And I'm like, "Wow, this is like literally released a month ago, and I'm watching how rapidly it's improving." That's okay, this is crazy. Um, you know, if you run an education business, which you now do, it's like, well, education is pretty worthless now when you really think about it because chat and everyone's going to teach you instantly. They're going to know all Logan's content and be like, "Hey, you know what? How would Logan handle this deal?" Boom. Like, that for sure happens.

>> Um, and it's already there. And so if you think that education now becomes worthless, where does the world go, when education's free, when AI's taking jobs, when you can't trust any content on the internet to know whether it's real or not? So I'm like thinking about a lot of big picture things because it affects everything I do in the digital space, which in turn affects my physical

>> space. There's a lot.

>> Dude, those are big questions to answer.

>> Yeah.

>> I'll tell you what I believe. I believe that I've I have multiple conclusions on some of these things. Um, I believe that as the world becomes more digital and and less trusting online, the physical and and and gatherings of people become more valued. So I think that we went, um, from there was no digital. So like you you know, we want to learn something, we got to go in a classroom, we got to go to college, we got to

>> you know, gather up to then all of a sudden all this information became online, YouTube videos, courses, coaching groups, zooms.

>> So now it's like freely available when you can't trust it at that point and when, uh, people are so digital, we always swing in the other direction. So then I think people start craving back the in-person stuff again, um, and and kind of detaching from the digital. And so like when people start to go back to in person, which they already are, but like even at a higher rate, what do they want? And so, um, I'm a huge believer in live events in that way, especially not just for education to teach you something, but for the deal making, the relationship building, the fun, the experiences.

>> And that's the part you can't use AI for, the M relationship.

>> Like my newest business, the golf business, M19. Um, you know, we just got back from Florida. 32 guys went, the best trip ever. Three, you know, um, we played three days of golf. We hung out, mastermind. They're all seven, eight or nine figure entrepreneurs. Every single one of them runs a business in some random field. And everyone's like, "This is like the best group of guys ever. How could AI ever mess with that?" And at that point, I look at myself and I say, "If I'm so good at gathering groups of people together and and nothing can ever compete with that digitally." Yeah, you can have an online group, whatever. Anyone can start an online group, but physically that will never be replicated. And so, I'm making a big bet on that. Um,

>> now leave that to the humans to see how it shakes out.

>> Yeah. I mean, humans been gathering physically since the beginning of time.

>> Yeah.

>> So, you think like that's never going away.

>> Like people think the metaverse is like, you know, this future and it is. People are going to spend more time, you know, watching streamers, being plugged in, watching YouTube, podcast, like for sure. But because of that, it's going to create the opposite effect, too.

>> So, you're still doing a lot. I noticed I watched a podcast a while back. Gosh, who was it you were talking with? I can't remember now. And I wondered if you would veer away from doing in-person events because I it was like an advertising guy or something.

>> Okay.

>> And I thought, is he going to go away and do more virtual? But I made I watched some other comments and I realized no no no you're still really pushing towards the in person.

>> What I think becomes more virtual is like the teaching of tactics. So, like for example, if somebody wanted to learn, um, you know, how to do what you do,

>> they don't need to come live in person to learn it. You could totally teach them virtually and it's great. Um,

>> yeah, that's how we do it.

>> Yeah, they don't need to come in in person, right?

>> And so I think like a lot of maturity of teaching will be done virtually and all this stuff and then but but I think it becomes less and less valuable. I think like before you could have charged 20, 30, $40,000 for it and then eventually it'll be 10 and then eventually it'll be free and it'll become less and less and less because chat and all these things will be able to do it for you and in in the years to come you'll be able to say, "Chat, make me a Ryan bot."

>> Yeah.

>> Chat will and chat could pull all my data from all of my YouTube videos ever created. Okay, I want Ryan as my personal mentor and it's going to happen and I will get paid nothing. That is the future and I already know that. I'm not fighting against it. I know it will happen. So, what can't AI and digital replace? Well, they can never replace what happens in person for sure. Um, and I have other theories too and things that I'm working on, but I'm like thinking years ahead. It's not here right now.

>> The crazy part is things move so quickly with technology. Is it years? Is it a year? How quick do those things happen? That's scary. I think a year to do what I just said.

>> Um, but it won't be like a year before people devalue it and and it's widely

>> Yeah, that's a maturity in that.

>> Yeah, but it's it I mean, it's technically possible now, right? You could go on chat right now and be like, "Hey, because I have so much data out there."

>> Yeah.

>> "Hey, what would Ryan say about this?"

>> Yeah. I think you also have to have a lot of users at that ability level to be able to pull that and there are other things that are higher priority than copying maybe guys like us right now. At some point the users will get smart enough and the products will get good enough to where you don't have to be a sophisticated user.

>> Boom.

>> Yeah. So,

>> wow.

>> Um, I just think information is not valuable.

>> It's changing fast.

>> Yeah.

>> So, when you got into real estate, how much was on YouTube?

>> Nothing. That's what I'm saying. Back in the day, dude, it was so hard to find information. You had to go to a $50,000 seminar

>> to get a basic information. And then I remember when Bigger Pockets came out, it was like revolutionary. I'm like, bro, like

>> there's free like content of these people and they're talking about what they do. This is crazy.

>> And then I would say around COVID you started to see guys like really give high-level information on YouTube and all these things like very tactical like

>> everybody listened to Gary Vee and Alex Hermosi and said I'll give more out.

>> Yep. And now bro like everyone knows everything about anything. We're getting smart, smarter, faster,

>> very fast and it's only going to accelerate. And now we have AI where not only can I consume information, but now I can get feedback with AI.

>> So that could change your education business more, but it might change your real estate transacting business less.

>> Yeah, that's that was my point. I think real estate's like very far from getting changed in with AI because it's so physical. Um, but everything else, dude, there anything that's digital is changing really fast and I think a lot of people are going to go out of business. I think a lot of people are going to not adapt to what's happening because they're going to it's it's pride, bro. I'm not doing that for this. You know, I dude, when I started making YouTube videos in 2020 in TikToks, okay, nobody was doing it, especially in real estate. And I'm just like freely telling everybody what I'm doing. Everyone's like, "Why would you tell people like make them pay?"

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm like, "No, like I think this is the future."

>> You're right.

>> And here we are.

>> So,

>> and I'm like, they still will pay even when you tell them that they they will still pay and and do other things.

>> Helping them do it is still valuable.

>> Yeah. And even if they never pay, they'll tell their friend about it.

>> Mhm. You know, 10 years ago, when we pull a foreclosure list, we would have no data, no real information. That was very limited at the time. Today, we've got programs that scrape data, piece it together, run it through Salesforce, and then give us priorities of what is a better deal and what's not, and it can do a lot of back research.

>> Yeah.

>> And I thought it would absolutely not affect this part of real estate at all, but it still does take a human to make a deal work, it seems like.

>> Yeah, for sure. Well, bro, it's been great finally um getting you on and and chatting with you about it. It's super cool what you're doing. And uh, where can people find you?

>> Uh, Instagram, Facebook. If you go to loganfulmer.com.

>> Okay.

>> Most of my stuff is there. Cool. And is that two L's?

>> F U L L M E R. Yeah.

>> There we go. LoganFulmer.com. Guys, go check them out. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe and we'll see you on the next one. Peace.

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