Transcription
Pastor Phil, first of all, I want to say thank you for joining me here. And I also want to say publicly and to you, that the impact that you've had on my life has been profound. I remember even when I first started going on to television for the first time, and you, so to speak, took me under your wing. And you were so kind, so gracious. I remember just in a few, within a few minutes of having spoken to you, I already felt at ease. You were always encouraging. You allowed me to serve in your ministry for some time there, helping with a few errands here and there. And even in those moments where I would drive you to the airport and so forth, you're always just speaking wisdom. And even now, social media, I'm able to see several of the things that you post, and a lot of the things you say just resonate with me. Uh, so I want to honor you and I want to thank you for being here with me on the broadcast right now.
Oh, it's my honor. And I do, I, I, I do remember you being so helpful to me and serving me and just having such a heart. Um, and I, I remember that. I also remember that night when I interviewed you, because the, the prophetic word of the Lord came on me as I was interviewing you. And, uh, pretty much, I could see what is now happening now. I knew that the hand of God was upon you, that you were a voice to the nations and the generations. First of all, because the hand of God is upon you. And today, we'll bear witness that Jesus has called you out of your generation. He's called you, just like he did when Oral was in the backseat of that car, he wasn't even a Christian. Jesus said, "I'm going to raise you up to bring the voice of healing to your generation." And, uh, it has begun to manifest. And every time I'm with you, I just see more and more. I just feel like that we're just in the lobby of what God has for you and for your ministry. And I'm so grateful for your humility, for your grace. And, uh, I just feel, I feel real honored to be, uh, connected to you and glad that we're doing Kingdom business, because this is the greatest time in the history of the Christian faith right now.
So, just a few moments ago, you were sharing with me about this revelation that you had recently preached, and you were talking about the patterns of God's presence. Yes. Can you share about that with me?
Yes. I'm a big fan of two books in the Bible: the book of Revelation, which is really about worship, and then Hebrews. Because Hebrews is basically the Reader's Digest version of the Old Testament. Pretty much everything you need to know about the Old Testament is in the 13 chapters of Hebrews. And in there, one of the most fascinating passages of scripture is Hebrews chapter 8. When, after going through seven chapters of explaining to the Jews about how everything is switching over to the New Covenant and all of this, he finally says, "Here's the main point." And then he uses the term, "God told Moses to build a tabernacle after the pattern in heaven." And so, even though God's presence is everywhere, we know there are levels, uh, of concentrated, uh, presence of God where his presence is manifested. And we're learning how to sing and worship, and we're learning how to get there. But there's actually a pattern. And I think God honors our sincere heart. But I think people get in and get out of the presence of God. Some of them get so close, they don't realize what they could do next. And so the scripture tells us there's a pattern. Once you understand that pattern, you can consistently get to the holies of holies, where everything that gets exchanged from heaven and earth happens in that place, in that position, in that moment.
And you were talking to me also about this, how this pattern is carried out in the everyday practice of worship and praise. Yes.
Well, I watch it in you. When you're, you're one of the few that knows how to bring people into the presence of God. It's the way I like to say it. And, and, and because you know God's presence, you know how to get people there. And then I kind of stand back and I can see the map. See, I can see so why people are raising their hands and they're singing. You know, it's like electricity. Maybe you don't know how it all works, but it works. But there is a pattern. So it's pretty, it's laid out pretty simple that we enter His gates with thanksgiving. Now, the gate was actually a form of a tent. It was about six feet tall, just enough where you couldn't see in your natural eyes. So the first thing that has to happen to get in the presence of God is you've got to be willing to let your spiritual eyes guide you through. So you can't really figure it out. You just start entering His gates with thanksgiving. Now, imagine as you enter in, "Thank you, God, for Your goodness. Thank you." And that's what our worship team does. It's getting people inside the gate. They've come in from a weary life, difficulties, problems, pressure, they're sick. And the singers on the platform are saying, "Come on in, come on." And they enter in His gates with thanksgiving. Now, the minute you get into that gate, you begin to feel a bit uneasy because you're now coming into the presence of God, and you feel unworthy. And you're thinking about your sins, and you're thinking about all the things you didn't do and should have done. Now you're feeling bad. And as you do, you're kind of bumping up against an altar. Because in the pattern, that's what's there: an altar. And that's the altar of sacrifice. In the Old Testament, they used to spend a lot of time there, and they would take animals, and it was quite the process to make this sacrifice so that, that this blood would atone for them when they would go into the holies of holies. But we're so blessed. Whoever wrote Hebrews says, "There at the altar is the one and for all sacrifice of Jesus." And one time I was praying, and when I got into God's presence for thanksgiving, I went to the altar and I just started thinking about myself, about all the things that I, I fall so short in. And I got on the altar, and I was raised really legalistic boy. I mean, we were, man, we got beat up every week, we lost our salvation and got saved every Sunday night. And I'm just, "Oh God, I'm no good. Oh God." And I felt like God said, "He, there's already a body of sacrifice on the altar." Wow. What? Yeah. That's my son, Jesus Christ. He's already paid the sacrifice. You can't do any better than he did. Thank Him. Acknowledge that. Identify with that. You are my sin offering. You are, thank you, God. And now move along.
Then, as you move along, and now you're, you've entered His courts with praise. Thank you, Lord. I praise You. God is to me what I declare Him to be. So I need the song leaders. I need them to give me words about who God is so I can declare that. And then there's a laver of water. I, when I come to that, I'm getting my conscience pure. I, I'm getting my mind. I already know my sin's been covered. I'm washing my hands. Thank you, Lord. I'm just getting my hands. Because bidding me beyond that laver of water is a tent. And the tent divided in two parts. The first is the holy place. So I move myself inside this tent. Now, I might be in a crowd of a thousand people, or I might be home in my bedroom. But when I enter into this tent, I say it this way: "Many enter His gates with thanksgiving, few His courts with praise, but the tent is reserved for two: God and you." When you walk into that tent, there over to the left is the candlesticks representing the light of God. Over here is the showbread. It's the only show going on in that place, right? And, and, and then there's the incense. That's more. And the Bible tells us in Revelation that our prayers and our praise is incense. So now we're continuing to praise and send incense unto the Lord. And then we feel a bit moved on, a little closer. You can feel the presence of God drawing you. Because no man can come unless he's drawn by the Spirit. You can feel this drawing in. And then there's one more veil that you pass through. You step into it. It's a very small place. It's about, it's about 15 feet square. And you walk into it. There's the Ark of the Covenant inside the Ark of the Covenant. Not to get into details, is the law, is Aaron's rod that rebutted, and then the manna. But now you're in the intense presence of God. In the Old Testament, theologians say that they put bells on the bottom of their robes to make sure that in case they didn't do everything just right, they would die in that place. And when they stopped hearing the bells, they knew something was wrong, and they would pull them out because no one could even go in there to rescue them. This is the intense, and only one person, once a year, could enter in. And yet, in your meetings, in people that understand the pattern to His presence, we can come boldly. But it helps us to understand the pattern. And when we get there, Paul said this in 2 Corinthians, he said, "What we have is so much greater than even what Moses and the kings and the prophets." We just don't realize it. But in that sacred moment, and, and David, I see this in my mind, in worship, I see this pattern that even though I'm in a crowd of people, or I'm in my bedroom by myself, I see the pattern: the gate, the altar, the laver of water, the tent. Then I see myself entering to that holies of holies at that time. And you know this, you know this more than most, really do. When you get into that place, everything disappears. Doesn't matter if you're in your bedroom by yourself, or you're in a crowd of, uh, 10,000 people. Doesn't matter. All of a sudden, the stage, the, the stage disappears. It's no longer, even you're not even aware of it in those moments. And, and the crowd there. In fact, there's only one person in the audience at that moment: God. It's a table reserved for two: God and you. And that moment is when, with boldness, is that, that's when you say, "I receive my healing. I receive my deliverance." That's in that moment is when all of the exchange happens. You know, and a lot of times people will tell me, and maybe, maybe I don't know how you feel about this, Pastor. People say, "I could live in the presence of God." Not really. It is so intense. That is really in a twinkling of an eye is when. And then you just kind of enjoy the overflow of it. And then you step back. You've got your healing. You step back out of the tent, the word, the incense, the praise, back into His courts. Now you're praising Him. Man, the pain's gone. You feel power. And then you come back by the altar. "Thank you, Jesus. You're, you're the one and only." Praise God. And then I, in the gate. And now you live a life that's been impacted because you've recognized the pattern to His presence.
And I want to expand on what you're saying about living in that intensity of God's presence. Because you've already clarified that the believer lives in God's presence 24/7. You're talking about a very specific manifestation of that presence. And the fact of the matter is, I don't sense the physical power of the Holy Spirit manifested on my body 24/7. Um, if I was weeping 24/7 in that intensity of the presence, I couldn't be a good father, or a good husband, or a good friend, or even study for a message. So the Lord will bring us into those manifestations of intensity. Yes. And then obviously, the manifestation may fade, but that doesn't mean His presence has left us. Exactly. And I also really appreciate how you spoke of people getting stuck at that place of sacrifice. Because I too battled with this legalistic mindset. Legalism is basically man's attempt to do what only God can. And so many believers come to this place of prayer and they spend so much time begging for God to hear them when He already does, begging to be noticed when He already notices them. And many believers approach prayer as if it's a negotiation with a reluctant God for His attention. Can you expand on that just a bit?
I will. It's so important because actually, what happens is, at some point, the sincerity turns into a self-sabotaging, selfish exchange. Because the attention, uh, started well with sincerity, but now it's all about you. See, my wife, Jeanie, used to lead our worship in our church. And I loved when the song Matt Redman wrote, "I'm Coming Back to the Heart of Worship." "It's all about You. I'm sorry, Lord, for the things I've made it." And I would tell her, "Oh, keep singing it, Jeanie. The people love it." And Jeanie said, "You can only say 'I'm sorry' so many times, and then it doesn't really work anymore. It's like pushing the elevator button. The light's on. So stop, stop it." Well, what happens is, it turns into self. See, religion loves to make us feel guilty and shamed. And sometimes we love to feel bad. We, people want to be shamed. "Oh, I'm not worthy. Oh, God doesn't love me." And what happens, it's really selfish. It's really your flesh. And you have to say, "My righteousness is as filthy rags. I cannot make this thing so good that God will be pleased. I just have to humble myself and don't linger there at that altar." Hear the Holy Spirit saying, "Come, come. There's more. Get up." Because I can tell you this, Pastor, you can't go into the holies of holies with shame. That's right. There's only one attitude, only one posture accepted: boldness. Come boldly. If you're not bold, don't come in here. Because that means you're relying on not the grace of God, you're relying on your works. And that's you. That's, that's not allowed. And it's so subtle the way the enemy deceives us in that way because it can, it can seem so right. We tell ourselves things like, "Well, of course I should feel bad." And we acknowledge that godly sorrow worketh repentance. But there's a point where people just continue to beat themselves up, almost as if they're trying to purchase their own way in. And it's by their stripes that they enter, they think. Exactly. And that's the twist of religion. It's interesting, Jesus said to the Pharisees, you know, "Take up your cross." He hadn't taken His cross up. What cross is He talking about? He didn't say "my cross." He said "your cross." And you know what their cross was? Was to deny their works. Because when He said, "Deny yourself," that's mentioned 17 times in the Old Testament. They knew that term. And you know what that term was associated with? Deny yourself from works. Deny yourself from working. Rest on the Sabbath. Deny yourself from. So they knew what Jesus was saying is, "You're going to have to deny yourself of working your way." Because that's what makes you feel good. Because you're, even Paul said, "Concerning the law, blameless." So my point is this: religion wants you to be the one that has earned this. "I've earned this. I, I deserve to be here." And part of getting there is shaming yourself. And it's a trap. And what breaks my heart is many sincere people get trapped there. But today, and I believe through the anointing on your ministry, people are being told, "Don't stop there. Touch it. Acknowledge it. And then the Bible says, confess your sins." I believe that means say the same thing about your sins as He does. Come in agreement. "Without Christ, I could never. I would be struck dead in God's presence. But thank you, Jesus, for Your sacrifice." In that humility, you move down the pattern into His presence. And because when we imagine that our own works could produce that connection with God, we're left with one of two options: either we feel utter despair because we recognize we cannot do it, or we're filled with with this religious pride because we think we've accomplished it.
Yes. I want you to take a moment to speak to that one watching right now who is battling with that kind of legalistic approach. And I want to clarify this: we're not saying believers ought not to live holy. We're not saying the grace of God is a license to sin. In fact, sometimes it's the breaking of shame and guilt that empowers holiness in your life. So I want you to take a moment to talk to that one who's perceiving prayer in that way, perceiving the presence of God in that way, that they imagine it's something they have to work toward, even though they're a born-again, Spirit-filled believer.
Absolutely. Well, it's a trap that happens. I, I was raised in a church of wonderful people. My mom and dad were pastors. But attached to that was, it was a guilt, shame-based connection. And it took a long time for me to take that and separate that. Because so much of what I was taught was right, but that part wasn't. And I had to really break that chain and break that guilt. And I would tell you this, that when you sin, and when I sin, when we do things wrong, if we let shame touch it, it's a guarantee we're going to return back to it. See, shame is a virus. It's a hook. The minute you feel shame, means that if not tomorrow, next week. If not next week, next month. If not next month, next year. But if shame is attached to your time of cleansing, it's a guarantee you're going to go back. Don't go back. Look, the only way you're going to be changed is to allow the grace of God. People say, "Oh, the grace is a license of sin." No, no, no. That's something else. Grace transforms you. Oh, no, friend, if you ever get a revelation of grace, ah, it will empower you. And so I'm praying for you right now. Accept what Jesus Christ did at the cross. Look at the cross. Stare at the cross. But just for a little moment, because bidding you is the holies of holies. God is saying, "Come on, come on into this place." And just like Pastor said, God is with you all the time. But He said, "When two or three are gathered in My name, there I am." See, in other words, there are levels of intensity. James was told, "If you're sick, sing. If you're sick, pray. If it doesn't work, call for the elders." So there are levels of intensity of God's presence. And I'm, I'm inviting you to go from, "Yes, God is with me," to step into that place called The Holies of Holies with no shame, with no blame, with no guilt, coming through the blood and through the work of Jesus Christ. That sacred place, that holy place, that's where everything God is, is manifested and available to you. So I just pray that right now, every religious shame, guilt, pressure, all of that is broken off of you right now. Right now, you're just humbly, truly saying, "Without Christ and His sacrifice, I can't do anything. But with Christ and His sacrifice, I am a child of God. And the only way I'm supposed to come into God's presence is boldness." I release that to you in Jesus' name, right now. And Lord, Pastor Phil and I agree right now in the name of Jesus for that healing virtue to begin to flow. We come against sickness and disease, bondage, demonic attack, addiction. We break that power now in the mighty name of Jesus. And I want you to say it if you agree, say amen.
Amen.
Well, thank you, Pastor Phil, for joining me here. How can we get a hold of your ministry?
I am on Instagram, and I follow you on Instagram, so you know Phil Muny. And we, we preach across the country. And I'm one of the teaching pastors at Lakewood. So if you go to Lakewood, uh, Phil Muny, there's literally a few hundred of my sermons available on YouTube. But, uh, yeah, we're thankful, uh, to be out here helping people and been doing it for over 50 years, my wife and I. And thrilled to be connected with you and seeing what God's doing with you.
Well, it was a joy to have you here. I love you. I appreciate you. I pray for you. And until next time, remember, nothing is impossible with God.