Transcription
Mr. Tiger Carrison, former journalist and the creator of the podcast Tiger Carson Show. Shalom and thank you for being with us.
>> Thank you for having me.
>> You said you're not running for office. So, who exactly you represent with your position?
>> I represent uh only myself. I don't take money for anyone. I don't work for anyone. I see my role as articulating, saying out loud what I think is best for the United States as an American. That's it.
>> Because you're not just a commentator anymore. You shape opinion at the scale that rivals elected officials. So the question is legitimate whose interest are you actually serving only yourself or you think you have you have a voice of a movement?
>> My children, my hoped for descendants, my neighbors, my country. Um, that's it. And I think every commentator wants to shape public opinion. That's why you comment. Um, and it's not surprising that commentators would have more authority than elected officials in the United States because elected officials in the United States, for the most part, have no moral authority whatsoever. They're totally discredited through lying. No one believes them.
>> So, you are one of Donald Trump's most consistent and vocal supporters. You called on people to vote for him. What happened?
>> Yes. Well, I I campaigned for Trump. I spoke at the Republican National Convention. I defended Trump for many years on Fox News. What happened was the war with Iran, which I don't believe serves the interest of the United States. I think it's destructive to the United States and to the world, but mostly to the United States. I'm an American. That's what I care about. And I that's something he promised he wouldn't do. For 10 years, he argued against a war like this. And then for a variety of reasons, not not all of which I understand, he um embarked on it. And so I I can't support that. My views did not change. His did.
>> Did the United States lose the war with Iran or the United States still winning?
>> Well, it depends on how you define the goal of the war. What's the point of the war? Um, if the point of the war is to make the United States safer and more prosperous, yes, it's not a win. If the point is to eliminate Iran's capacity to you project power outside its borders, we have not won. It's not clear by what measure were determining victory, but I don't see this as a win at all.
>> Okay, we will get back to the Iran war, but on MAGA itself, who is the most authentic representative today? you your voice or President Trump's?
>> Well, it depends what you mean by authentic. I mean, the majority of Americans do not support this war. The majority don't believe that Iran's nuclear program was the greatest threat that we face. The majority of Americans don't want any more wars like this. Those are my views. So, on this specific issue, my opinions are closer to those of the majority of Americans.
And do you think that you represent in your opposition to the Irwan Iran war most of the Republican voters and the MAGA supporters inside the Republican party?
>> Well, I don't think I represent anybody, but I think that my views um which have not changed on this question, a regime change war in Iran. Is it a good idea? I think the majority of people who voted for Donald Trump two years ago, less than two years ago, believed that and that's one of the reasons they voted for Trump. He said, "I will not get us into any more pointless wars in the Middle East." Specifically, a war against Iran to change its regime. And he did that. So again, my views have remained consistent. They're sincere. I'm not being paid to have them. No one is influencing me in these views other than what I see and have experienced. And so yes, I think my views are much closer to those of the majority.
>> Do you generally believe Israel would try to harm you because of your opinion?
>> Do I believe Israel would try to harm me? Yes. I mean, of course, I don't know. I I I hope not. I don't want to be harmed.
>> Yeah.
>> But my my main interest is not Israel.
>> I'm just asking you. you were implied to that in in in uh in in your podcast when you said and let me show you when you spoke about your coming to Israel. Let's see that for a second.
>> And I said to them, okay, I want to send you uh the flight information. Um and I want you to pass that on to the Israeli military just so you know they don't mistake us for an Iranian drone or something. I mean, not to be paranoid, but again, this is probably the most violent country in the world, Israel. So, Israel is the most violent state in the world, even more than Iran. Are you serious?
>> No country h and I say this with sadness, but no country has boasted more about killing its political opponents than Israel, of course, about its assassination programs. The prime minister of Israel gave a golden pager to the president of the United States. I was there. Um, and that golden pager represented the pagers that Hezbollah leaders uh were killed by. Sure. I mean, so yes, Israel brags about assassinating people, and of course, it does assassinate people. Many countries assassinate people, but Israel um makes a public relations campaign out of boasting about killing its opponents. So by definition these people that were killed are the terrorists ofah
>> that had a plan to eliminate Israel. In fact, when you said you were against the war in Iran, Iran is the creator of the fire ring around Israel through Hamas andah trying to eliminate Israel. So don't you think that Israel has the right of self-defense which is one of the major pillar of interest of national security in Israel and also in the United States.
>> Of course I think Israel has the right of self-defense. I
>> said about the beeper is like a golden beeper is something that is wrong. Isn't it the fact that you when you're fighting your enemies you need to kill them first. Sometimes
>> I there may be circumstances where you can justify killing someone preemptively. And just to restate, Israel, like the United States, like Burundi, like France, like every nation, like every person has the right of self-defense. That's an inherent right. So I would I've never questioned that. I support it. The question that I think is worth discussing is what does that mean? Killing innocents is never acceptable. Period. under any circumstances by any person or any nation. It's immoral. It's the thing that separates the civilized from the barbarous.
>> And if you wind up killing people
>> like Hamas did,
>> of course, October 7th, right, in a massacre,
>> none of this is a defense of of Israel's enemies. Of course not.
>> It's a blanket universal principle. It sounds like
>> Of course it's not. It's a universal principle that applies to every person and every nation. Now, that is not an attack on Israel. Israel has to in order to remain considered a civilized nation abide by the same universal principles everybody else does. If Hamas does something that's bad, it's bad.
>> That does not justify Israel doing that same bad thing or the United States doing that same bad thing or anybody doing that same bad thing. So the principle remains the same. You can't kill people who did nothing wrong.
>> It's not just bad. You know, we I'm going back to October 7th. This was a massacre that was attack on Israel about innocent about uh women, raping women, kidnapping uh infants, taking them to the tunnels for long months inside Gaza.
>> Do you imagine what the United States would have done to an enemy that would have attacked the United States and do the same in the same magnitude?
>> Do you think that would act differently? Well, I don't I don't need to imagine because we had 911 where many innocents were killed and in response the United States killed some of the perpetrators and also many innocents. And so we we've done that and I don't killing people.
>> You are in favor of the Iraq war.
>> Let me let me just I well I was in favor of the Iraq war and I was wrong and I've apologized for it many times. Excuse me. Let me do so again. I'm sorry that I supported some a war that had no relationship to 9/11 that was not justified and that hurt the United States. So, but let me just say this.
>> It is never allowable, period, for any person to kill an innocent. You can't kill a child. The child did nothing wrong. It is always immoral to do that. You can you can say, "Well, I did it for this reason, but it doesn't make it right. It's always wrong." And civilized people understand that. That's what civilized people are. That's the definition of a civilized country. A country
>> but it seems like
>> right
>> but it seems like when you speak about Israel as the most violent state in the world you forget to mention that it is the most attacked state in the world from so many enemies know like any other country in the world. So if you don't put this equation together, it seems like we are doing it for fun or that we lost our morality. This is self-defense.
>> Well, Israel has definitely lost its morality. There's no question about that. Of course, I do think and I would always say because it's true that Israel has many enemies, many of whom have committed atrocities against innocent Israelis. Blowing up people in cafes in Tel Aviv is every bit as immoral as killing any other innocent in any other country at any other time. It's all wrong. What what makes it of interest to me? And by the way, there are many countries that commit atrocities, not just Israel, but from my of course not. And the United States has committed many atrocities. And I grieve that it's wrong.
>> The reason that I have caused to comment on this and to say that it's wrong is that I'm paying for it. There's no reason the United States should be sending any money at all to Israel and particularly not to its military. Even if the price will be the inhalation of Israel, this is not your problem.
>> I don't want Let me let me be clear.
>> This is the morality that you're preaching for.
>> Well, let me tell you what I do think,
>> okay?
>> Which is I don't want Israel to be destroyed. I don't want any Israeli to be harmed. I personally have always liked Israel. Not that that's relevant, but I I have. So, it's not I don't want is anyone to be hurt in Israel. I just don't understand why the United States has an obligation to pay for any of this, to send the weapons for it, to lend its moral authority to Israel, to lend its diplomatic cover to Israel, to lend its air force and its navy and its military to Israel. I don't understand where does this obligation come from. And no one will answer that question. And instead, they say, "Well, you're an anti-semite." Well, I'm not an anti-semite.
>> All right?
>> And that's not an answer. What is what is the answer? And I've never received one. And I know now because of this war that America's relationship with Israel, while it may be based on good intentions, is hurting the United States very badly. Very badly. We can't afford it and our standing in the world has declined and we're implicated in some of the many crimes Israel has committed. Why?
>> I have some thought about it. But but I have but I have a question. Please tell me. You know,
>> you accuse Nathaniel
>> of dragging Trump into an unnecessary war with Iran. So, let's think about it. What it actually mean? Do you really
>> think that a foreign leader can pull the president of the United States into a war he didn't want? And what does it tell us about Trump? Is he really that weak?
>> Well, I don't think that that could happen. I saw it happen. I was there and so that happened. So, the question is why? And I I just want to be clear. I don't primarily blame the Israeli prime minister who I think is wrong. I think he's gravely hurt Israel. I think he's leading Israel toward destruction. I think he's a very bad leader and a very unwise leader. However, I also believe that Prime Minister Netanyahu is acting in what he thinks is his nation's best interest. So, I give him credit for that and always have. I don't blame him primarily. I blame Donald Trump for folding under the pressure from Benjamin Netanyahu and his many allies in the United States. Donors to Donald Trump, people in the media class here were effectively working on behalf of the Israeli government and Donald Trump whose decision it was caved under that pressure. I also blame advisers to Donald Trump like Marco Rubio, the secretary of state and national security adviser who stood back and did nothing or Dan Kaine the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff who did the same which is nothing and they allowed this to happen when they knew that it was not in the interest of the United States. I blame them much more than I blame Benjamin but the fact is to be manipulated are they so weak. So according to your theory, how exactly is theory, Israel doing it, blackmailing,
>> extraordinary effective pressure, what exactly
>> do we do according to your theory to cave the commander of the American army or the president of the United States?
>> Right.
>> Well, I would just correct you and say it's not a theory, it's a fact. And not only did I watch it happen, but the US government admitted it happened. Marco Rubio, days after this war began, went to the United States Congress and said on camera that we did this because Benjamin Netanyahu informed Donald Trump that the Israelis were going first and that that would thereby put American assets and forces and civilians in the Gulf at risk. And so we had to go and follow in Israel into this war. That's what the Secretary of State said on camera. that tape still exists and until it's erased it's it remains a testament to what actually happened. So again it's not a theory it's a fact.
>> Yeah. But also Marco Rubio said what what are the American interest in attacking Iran because they want to um defend their allies in the Gulf, Arab states, because Iran created nuclear um infrastructure that can create a bomb and because they saw exactly what Iran is, a bully that trying to uh terrorize everyone including the United States of America. So maybe it's also an American interest and this is also part of what Marco Rubio said.
>> Well, maybe or maybe not. I mean, we can debate that and this is hardly a defense of Iran and you're absolutely right that the GCC, the six Gulf states are very opposed to Iran and Saudi Arabia and UAE is particularly true and those are close allies of the United States. It wasn't just Israel. You're absolutely right. But when it came down to it on February 28th, the United States followed Israel into this war. And the Secretary of State of the United States said, "We had no choice. They chose the time. The Israeli prime minister decided when this started." Well, that's the definition of control. He had control of this war. And so my question is, why did Donald Trump allow a nation of 9 million people to pull the United States, a nation of 350 million people, into a war that will change its future? And that is bad for the United States. And I can't answer that question.
>> You can't answer.
>> I I don't have an answer.
>> What you imply that Donald Trump is so weak
>> that the foreign leader can drag him into a war he doesn't want.
>> Well, I'm not. First of all, I never hesitated and maybe afraid to say clearly that Donald Trump is weak.
>> Let me say two things. For one, of course, I'm not afraid or I wouldn't be doing this interview or talking about this at all. For another, I never imply anything. I state what I think and what I know and I've stated to you clearly that I don't know the mechanism by which Benjamin Netanyahu was able to exert this force on Donald Trump. I don't know. I could have theories. Uh many of Netanyahu's biggest supporters in Israeli politics gave money to Donald Trump, notably Miriam Adlesen, who's been a longtime funer as you know because you're Israeli of Benjamin Netanyahu's political career and she was the biggest or second biggest donor to Donald Trump. Hundreds of millions of dollars. So that's clearly one vector of control and there may have been others.
>> I just want to be clear, however, that I am blaming Donald Trump for this. It was his decision. He could have said, as previous presidents have said to Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israeli prime ministers, no, we're not doing that cuz it's not good for us. But Donald Trump chose chose to say yes. And so the blame is on Donald Trump, but it doesn't it doesn't erase the fact, the documented fact, not the theory, the fact that Israel pushed us into this and led this war. They did.
>> If it's true, your theory, so how come
>> it's not theory? They stop they stop the war in Iran right now because clearly it's not an Israeli interest because the regime haven't fall and the threat from Iran didn't just vanished. So if it was only controlled by Israel, the war should go on.
>> Well, we'll see. Um the ceasefire is, you know, almost almost over. It's clearly terrible for the United States and for the world. There will be famines around the world because of this war 2 and a half months old. I mean, if this war is resolved by next month, we will still have a net loss of 1.8 billion barrels of oil into the global energy system. And not just oil, natural gas and fertilizer and industrial chemicals. So the downstream effects even now if we were to wrap this up now would be the deaths of innocent people in countries around the world particularly in Africa and migrant crises and political turmoil and all the rest. This is a disaster for the world. Now I know that Israel thinks it's in its its interest. I don't agree with that. I think this is a very dangerous place for Israel to be. It is a tiny military. It can't actually project power. It needs the United States military to project that power for it. It has nuclear weapons and that's basically it. And so I think Israel is in a very dangerous position and I know a lot of Israelis and I still talk to some of them because I like them and I think they're smart. I don't know any Israelis who fully appreciate the risk I believe Israel is in right now. I mean I think this is a real risk for Israel and I think Israelis were so traumatized by October 7th. This is my read as a total outsider just watching. But they were so traumatized by the atrocities of October 7th that they are following a prime minister who will destroy the country if he is not pulled back. I hope I'm wrong. I'm often wrong. I could be wrong, but that is my sincere view.
But maybe you're wrong by not seeing uh what is very blunt truth that if the United States would cave in to Iran terror regime that controls now also the hormones pathway and the terror ring that it created in the Middle East. Maybe it would be even worse for any citizens in the world, not only in Israel but also in the United States. And this is exactly what Donald Trump said. He said that United States would have been in danger. So you don't believe Donald Trump?
>> I don't believe Donald Trump. And I also think as an Israeli, you should pause before using the phrase terror regime since you live in a country that just murdered thousands of children in Gaza. We should all pull back a little bit on the rhetoric like that. I I'm not defending Iran, but I'm just I'm just saying
>> even the fact that it's a little it's a little hard to hear that from Israel that you want me uh to make an equation between uh democratic government that's acting maybe not to your taste but from self-defense to a terror regime in Iran that is terrorizing its own citizens that hanging people gay people from cranes with Islamic extremist Sharia to a democratic uh country that's abide by international law of self-defense. It's it's ridiculous. Do you think that Israel and Iran is on the same equation? Really?
>> I I don't I don't think Israel and Iran are the same.
>> That's what you're saying by many measures. This is not Let me I can totally have this that you are you're targeting only Israel and and by that
>> Well, of course, I'm not I'm not targeting anybody. I don't have a military. I'm a podcaster. So, I don't target people.
>> What I'm saying is true, which is Iran's behavior, the government of Iran's behavior is in some cases disgusting to me and immoral. But the behavior of the Israeli government in Gaza is disgusting and immoral. And of course, Israel is not a democracy in any sense. There are millions of people who live under Israeli control who cannot vote. Right? And so if the West Bank, Judea and Samaria and Gaza, whatever calling these places, which Israel has controlled since 1967, have people living in them who have no control over the government that controls their lives, which is true. It's not a democracy. So, let's just drop the talking points. I agree with you on self-defense. I don't think killing children is self-defense. It never will be. And no amount of recounting the legitimate atrocities of October 7th will ever get me to accept this behavior from the Israeli government, from the US government, from the Iranian government, or any government. It's always wrong. And Israel doesn't like to acknowledge existence of universal principles that apply to everyone equally. That's why they're principles, not preferences. And Israel, again, which I've always liked as a country, has a lot of civilized, decent people living there to this day, has to acknowledge that principles are universal. They apply to everyone, even you, even me. My government, your government, every government. But you won't acknowledge that. It's always like, "Oh, Iran's bad." Yeah, Iran's bad, but your behavior is bad, too.
>> I'll tell you something. There's a journalist that critics our own government. I'm I'm using your phrase to make it accurate. You said there the people don't have any control in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. Well, this is false. They have the Palestinian authority. They control the lives and Israel controls the security. Israel for times after time the last 30 years said to the Palestinians let's have peace let's have agreement from the Oslo agreement to the uh to other agreements all the time the one that uh targeted and succeeded in stopping the peace process was Hamas that funded by Iran but I want to go back
>> right
>> to uh your claim
>> may ask you to pause for one second I I I'm not defending Hamas or Iranian funding of anti-ISA. When you're saying Hamas is like Israel, it seems like
>> you're giving some kind of a blind spot to the differences between terror organization and a state.
>> Well, Israel does commit terrorism and brags about it. Setting off pagers in the pockets of people when you don't know who those people are is terrorism. They know you are an Isbala terrorist and this is what countries that is not true. That is what you're saying is not true. Israel did not the morning that it detonated those pagers know who was holding the pagers and people who committed the crime of they were pagers ofah terrorist unless you are not acknowledging as a terror organization. Do you think maybe it's a it's a some kind of a party like a democratic party? I don't know. or the Republican party.
>> Right? I'm not defending Hezbollah. I'm merely saying that terrorism is let me define terrorism and then we can apply that standard to everybody including Israel and the United States. When you kill innocent people and you do so knowing you're going to do that in order to strike terror into people or to push people back, that is terrorism. So any government that does that or any person who does that is committing terrorism. Period. And again, these are universal standards that apply to everyone. That is not anti-semitism to apply a standard universally to every human being. That's all I'm doing.
>> So,
>> and I'm merely saying, look, this is not good for us, for the United States, for the rest of the world.
>> So, when ICE in United States trying to back off people, this is terrorism. When any government kills about which is trying to uh make fear and terror on immigrants to United States, is that terror in your eyes? fear an immigrant. Look, if if anyone in ICE or the US government or any government is punishing someone who did nothing wrong in order to inspire fear or influence other people to do or not do something, that is an act of terror. Whenever it happens, you can give me a specific examp
>> Well, I don't actually know what you're talking about.
>> What happened in Minnesota? what happened in other places. Do you call it terrorism? Or maybe it's excessive use of force, which is something different than terror.
>> All right.
>> It is wrong to punish people who did nothing wrong. It's wrong in Gaza. It's wrong in southern Lebanon. It's wrong in Minneapolis. It's wrong everywhere all the time. Okay? So that that's all I'm saying. And but using phrases like terror state
>> don't make the truth clearer. They obiscate the truth. They muddy the truth. make it harder to understand what is actually going on. But my perspective is a very American perspective. We're talking about not simply moral schemata here. We're talking about the behavior of governments whose only purpose is to protect their own people and to make their lives better. And what the United States is doing with Iran is not improving the lives of Americans. It's hurting Americans. Therefore, I'm against it. Now, Israel has a different view of its own self-interest, and that's okay with me. I just don't want to be involved and I don't know why we should be. And maybe since you've taken the time to lecture me, you can answer this question. Okay.
>> Why should the United States send any money to Israel? Why does the United States owe Israel anything? I don't understand this. What is the answer?
>> I think it's about interest. But I will get back to that because I want to ask you, we're still on on the wars and your criticism about Israel. For example, in Gaza,
>> have you actually labeled Israel as committing genocide? You said that
>> ethnic cleansing. Israel is trying to take the people who live there.
>> You said genocide. You said about Israel genocide, killing the people, the state of the Jews. You said we are committing genocide.
>> Well, I I've never said the state of the Jews is committing genocide. Israel is not the state of the Jews. No, Israel is not the state of the Jews. Plenty of Jews don't live in Israel. In fact, I think about half of global jewelry doesn't live in Israel and a lot of them don't support Israel. So the idea that Israel, the government of Israel is the same of every as as every Jew in the world, is a lie. You know, it's a lie.
>> Israel anybody to tell that lie.
>> Israel is killing innocents in Gaza, including children, and doing so unf. But about genocide, this is there's
>> it's not my view. It's a fact.
>> No, you were journalist. Genocide is a persist legal definition. And when you applied to the killings of uh thousand which I regret of course and I understand your point of view.
>> How much do you regret it?
>> But the fact
>> but the fact that you label it is
>> you don't seem to regret it too much.
>> It's genocide. Isn't it wrong?
>> We're we're not measuring. I'm only a journalist. But you said is
>> what you're saying No. What you're saying is so Israel has murdered all these children, thousands of children in Gaza, but the real criminal is me because I describe that as genocide. Okay, it's not gen. It's killing innocents. It's wrong. You can call it genocide or ethnic cleansing. You can call it a crime, a sin, an atrocity. I, you know, I don't really care. What I'm saying is murdering children is wrong. You're more upset by how I describe the murder of children than you are at the murder of children, which says a lot, I think.
>> No, I
>> I do think so.
>> Okay. Maybe. Uh, but I want to ask you about double standards because did you speak in the same enthusiasm about the fact that in the Ukraine Russia war there were about half a million victims from Ukraine and Russia and some of them and maybe the most of them are civilians.
>> Well, yeah. I mean, I I've been upset about the Ukraine war since the day it started, since the day the Biden administration pushed this war on the world,
>> and I've been up so upset about it that I went to Russia twice and interviewed Vladimir Putin. I grieve over it. So many civilians, I mean, so many civilians and so many working age men have been killed in Ukraine that they're importing Africans as a labor force. So Ukraine as a nation is over. Yes, I've talked a lot about it. And I'm very upset about it.
>> But you have praised Putin.
>> I'm always upset about it.
>> You called Vladimir Putin your friend and you think he's a great man. Even though he invaded
>> call him my friend.
>> He invaded he invaded Ukraine with no with no reason. He didn't have any claim of self-defense. He just want to took the Ukrainian territories and killing thousands and hundreds of thousands of people. And do you do you treat him in your criticism as you treat Israel in your eyes, in your view?
>> I I don't even know how to respond to a question like that. He invaded Ukraine for no reason. What do Do people start wars for no reason? Do you believe that?
>> Do you think that he had a reason of self-defense to invade Ukraine?
>> Well, of course I think that.
>> Yes. Do you think that Ukraine
>> was a threat to the Russia
>> wanted Russia? I I mean I've spent four years talking about this. I I can summarize my view in two sentences. Maybe you won't agree with me, but my view has remained pretty consistent um from the day that it started in the four and a half years ago. And that is that the Biden administration sent the vice president Kla Harris to the Munich Security Conference in February of 2022. and she said to President Zalinski at a news conference, "We would like Ukraine to join NATO, that would mean nuclear weapons on Russia's western border with Ukraine."
>> Now, you should know as an Israeli that that is a threat, that is an existential threat. If, for example, Iran were to place nuclear weapons in southern Lebanon, I think Israel would see that as the justification for a war in southern Lebanon. So I even though you're asking us to wait that Iran will supply nuclear weapon in South Lebanon to say that it's okay that we are attacking our enemies. But if Putin is doing it to Ukraine with the assumption that maybe it will be a nuclear weapon on its border, it's fine that is creating a four years of war with so many victims.
>> Well, it's not okay. The war is not okay. I've been opposed to the war in Ukraine since the day it started. I hate the whole thing. It's destroying Europe. And by the way, many arms, American and NATO arms sent to Ukraine have been sold to, including Hezbollah and Hamas. And the Israeli government knows this. I doubt you know it, but let me just say it at statement of fact right now that that has happened. So, it has not been good for Europe. It's not been good for the United States. It's not been good for Russia. It's not been good for Ukraine. And it's not been good for Israel or the Middle East.
>> I don't understand how this is good. I've never been for it. I've been totally opposed to it.
>> I'm not really sure what question you're asking. You're trying to catch me in some sort of double standard,
>> but my standard remains the same. I actually don't like wars. Prime Ministers who brag about fighting sevenfront wars are by definition deranged. And I don't want to pay for this. I don't understand why the United States has to send any money to Israel, which by some standards has a higher standard of living than the United States does. Why do we owe Israel anything? Why not have a healthy relationship where we treat Israel as a friend, an ally, a great place to visit, but we don't have to fund their state? We don't have to fund the IDF. We don't have to fund their wars. Why is that anti-semitism? No, it's the opposite of anti-semitism. It's treating Israel as a peer, as a nice country that we can get along with or not, but treating Israel as a normal country, which I very much hope it becomes at some point.
>> Okay. You raise anti-semitism. You constantly talk about Netanyahu's influence, as you said, about powerful people pulling strings behind the scenes about Israel grip on American institution. I want to ask you something directly. Do you understand why millions of Jews and Israelis and not only they hear that language as an echo of something very old like the protocol of the elder of Zion like dual loyalty and hidden Jewish power you're ed you're an educated man you know the history does
>> let me respond with a question let me respond let me respond with a question to you
>> do you understand why I as an American and the other 350 million Americans who live in this country might resent having an Israeli prime minister decide when my country and our military and men from the United States go to war and go die. Do you think Do you understand why we might resent having to pay for this with billions, tens of billions of dollars over the years? Do you understand why we might not like that? Why we might why that might wrankle us a little bit? I I mean since we're you know asking each other if we understand our respective perspectives do you understand why we might not like that?
>> The answer is yes. I can understand that. But I'm going back to my question if you can answer it in a candid way. Do you understand why it seems like you're echoing like an old anti-semitic plot about the uh control of the Jews in the mystery about the United States? I am not echoing anything. I'm not implying anything. I am stating what I know to be true because I saw it and the people involved stated it out loud without shame. The Israeli prime minister pushed the US president, who turned out to be far weaker than I understood, into a war that hurts the United States. That is not an attack on Jews. Israel does not represent all Jews. Despite its claims, it does not. That is factually incorrect and you know it. And so that is not an attack on an ethnic group. I am totally opposed to attacking people on the basis of their ethnicity. That's why I am disgusted by the way that Israel treats Arabs like animals or subhumans. I oppose that. That is immoral. I oppose attacks on Jews as Jews. That is disgusting. It is immoral. These are universal principles from which I have never wavered and never will because I believe them because I'm a Christian. So, no, I reject all hatred based on ethnicity, whether it's hatred of Jews by anyone on the internet or not, or in past periods of history. And I reject the Israeli government, Smootrich and Ben Gver's hatred of Arabs because they're Arab. Does that bother you when an Israeli cabinet secretary stands up and describes Arabs as animals and says that we should push them off their land and kill them? Are are you as upset at them as I as you are at me for pointing out that Netanyahu pushed us into war? Speaking of double standards, I doubt it.
>> You doubt it. But you can hear my newscast and you can see that it's happening. The criticism is daily. But you also gave space and room for blunt antimite like Nick Fuentes. So it's combined with a my previous question that maybe it's applying something that is very specific about Israelis and Jews because you as I'm as if I can say Jews I'm just one one question at a time.
>> Okay. No no I'm just
>> No, I'm not I'm not asking. No, I'm not
>> I'm No, I don't have a practice of doing anything. You're speaking to me directly now and I'll say what I think and you can either believe me or not. I'm not asking questions. I'm making statements. And I made a statement about what happened at the end of February when the US got into this war. And it got into this war because Benjamin Netanyahu pushed the United States and the United States leadership is weak enough to go along with it. That's a fact. It's not a theory. Nick Fuentes came on my show in October. Nick Fuentes has said anti-semitic things. I said to Nick Fuentes, that is immoral. Anti-semitism is immoral. Attacking people on the basis of their bloodline is immoral. Whether you do it, whether Benjamin Netanyahu does it, calling his enemies Amalcch or some deranged racist thing like that is wrong. It's always wrong. And so I don't agree with that. If I did agree with it, I would say so. If I was an anti-semite, I would just say so. I am not. I oppose anti-semitism. I oppose anti-white hate. I oppose the hatred of Asians or Mexicans or Filipinos or Muslims. Period. I don't like hatred and I never have. You ask me if I believe you. Let's go to something is very that you can measure. What really happened in the airport in Israel? Because you claimed you were detained and that your staff was uh interrog I was not detain. Wait, stop. I did not claim I was detained and I was not detained. All right. So I don't know why you would say that.
>> I think that you said that you were arrested by Israeli authorities and then photos coming from the airport shows the opposite. And Napali Bennett, for example, said that you were covered that you even bother to step a foot inside Israel during a war. So what's really happened?
>> Okay, so Napali Bennett doesn't like me. I I've criticized the behavior of the Israeli government and that criticism is sincere. I'm certainly not getting anything from it. I just want to stop paying for this. I don't know why I'm paying for this, including the Israeli airport, which had all kinds of American, you know, military aircraft there. What is my aircraft? I own those. I'm an American citizen. I pay for this. What Why is the United States serving Israel's interests? And why do American taxpayers against their will have to pay for it? I don't think it's good for Israel, by the way. I think it's put you in a a position of dramatic overextension. You are fighting more people than you can actually defend yourself against. That is true. And you're doing that because you have relied on the US military to fight your wars for you for 65 years. So that's a fact. in the Israeli airport at the diplomatic terminal in Bengurian. Two of my guys got pulled into rooms by some one of the many Israeli security services and asked questions that were absolutely ridiculous when they were trying to get on a plane and leave. That was harassment and it went on for like an hour. That's true. And you don't have to believe me if you don't want, but I think you live there so you know what the Israeli security forces are like. They're arrogant. They're aggressive. They bully you. They ask you questions they have no business getting the answers to. You guys put up with that. That's your business. I I don't want I don't like it. I'm an American. We have a free country and we don't behave that way generally. And when we are treated that way, we complain about it. I that's I don't know why that's a weird thing. And I'm sorry that Naftali Bennett doesn't like it. Napali Bennett has no problem taking our tax dollars and I wish he would stop.
Can you tell us uh and do you fully grasp the shift in Americans public opinion towards Israel? What do you think is the important things that we need to understand about the rise of anti-semitism in the United States? Why why is it on the rise in your opinion? And do you think that you have any responsibility for that or nothing?
>> Just to be just to be clear, um people disliking Israel is not anti-semitism. Having complaints about the behavior of Israel, particularly its murder of children in Gaza, is not anti-semitism. Period. You are totally within your rights to criticize the behavior of any government on the planet, particularly a government that you pay for. So that is not anti-semitism. A rise in hostility toward Israel, which is now the most unpopular government in the world, as I'm sure you've seen, is not anti-semitism. Now there may be anti-semites who don't like Israel because there are a lot of Jews in Israel. I don't agree with them. But criticism of a government is not hate.
>> Do you distinctions between the government of Israel and the Tanyao governments to the people of Israel to the state of Israel? I
>> I'm not exactly sure what the question is, but I I've said four times and let me say once you can criticize Donald Trump and the Trump administration and like the American people. So I I'm asking you if you're doing this distinction.
>> Of course.
>> Well, I already told you I have friends in Israel. I still talk to people in Israel. I've taken my family on vacation in Israel.
>> Even though you most ugliest country in the world that haven't built nothing.
>> Tel Aviv is one of the ugliest places I've ever been. Yes. I think the architecture in modern Israel is distressing. And we have a lot of terrible architecture here. I think the architecture of the old city in Jerusalem is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. And I I love the old
>> So now you're part of
>> No, I've never But look, here's my point. I don't like what the Israeli government is doing.
>> Okay. The Israeli government and its many propaganda agents both within Israel and in the United States are trying to conflate criticism of the government, which is legitimate, in fact, I think necessary, and anti-semitism, which is immoral. And they're trying to do that so you will stop criticizing the behavior of Benjamin Netanyahu. Of course, I don't think Netanyahu is the same as all Israelis. In fact, from what I read, a lot of Israelis have mixed feelings about Netanyahu, and some I know personally don't like Netanyahu. So, I think people in general are kind of very similar. I think Arabs, Muslim Arabs in the West Bank. I think Iranians in Thrron. I think Jews in Tel Aviv. I think Christians in Dallas. They're all people. And there are good ones and bad ones. And good ones do bad things. And bad ones do good things. And like it's all very complicated because people are complicated. So, I don't like generalizing about anybody. But I will say I think your government is completely out of control. It has blood on its hands and it's destroying your country and hurting mine. I I think that's obviously true.
>> I want you to think carefully before you answer that question because this is interview is airing in Israel. Many Israelis,
>> yes,
>> watching this will not hear you as a critic of Netanyahu's policy. They will hear you as someone helping to normalize the idea that Israel is a corrupting force inside American democracy and by extension a country that America should walk away from. What responsibility do you take for the political consequences of that message in a moment that anti-semitism is rising with Israel is fighting for its survival? So what you're saying to me is as an American I'm not allowed to criticize Israel because quote anti-semitism is rising. You are saying that of course and what I'm saying is Israel is a corrupting force on American politics. There are many corrupting forces on American Israel is not alone in that. The pharmaceutical industry you know the oil industry. I mean, there are many corrupting forces on any political body, of course, but Israel is definitely one of them, and it's a foreign country, and it should have no influence over the workings of my government. I know Israelis who are mad that the US government influences politics within Israel. I understand that criticism. I feel for them. I know the feeling. I don't like it. No one should. I'm a nationalist. I care about my country. I don't want to hurt Israel, but Israel's problems are not my problem. They're different problems. Israel has different goals in this war. I wish Israel the best of luck. I don't think the United States owes Israel anything. I don't think the United States should give Israel anything. I think we should stop all aid to Israel, all special deals for Israel tomorrow. I think the same about England. We don't owe England anything. We don't owe Nigeria anything. I believe in the nation state. And you have not answered my core question, which is why should the United States continue to send American tax dollars in the middle of a recession to Israel, which has again by some measures a higher standard of living than we do. What is the answer to that question?
>> I'll answer you with the words of the President Trump and Marco Rubio that you quoted before. This is an American interest. Israel is an outpost of democracy in the Middle East. And maybe the United States is using Israel as its base to do other things in the Middle East regarding energy and gas and oil. So maybe it's a mutual interest. Maybe United States is taking advantage in Israel and you're saying that you are so weak and your leadership are so weak that we are dragging you to something that you really don't need. But this is the opposite of what your uh government is saying. This is their answer.
>> Yes, you're absolutely right. That is that is a well, you're you've quoted them correctly. That is their that is their answer. And you all and I've pushed many politicians in the United States in this. What are we getting out of this? Well, intelligence. Well, here's the intelligence that we got in late February. The American intelligence community, the 18 American intelligence agencies which consume tens of billions of dollars, hundreds of billions a year, all told, came to the president and said there is no imminent threatening Iranian nuclear program. It does not exist. They are not on the cusp of building a bomb. They have no means of sending that weapon, which doesn't exist, to our shores. They don't have ICBMs. That was the conclusion of our intelligence agencies. The Israeli intel agency came to the White House and said, "No." Said just the opposite. That program is real. It's an imminent danger to the United States. And if you kill the Ayatollah, the regime will collapse. And Donald Trump went with Israeli intelligence over American intelligence. And it turned out Israeli intelligence was totally wrong. Now, on purpose, I don't know. I can't prove that. But it was wrong. Our intelligence was right. Well, I don't know the answer. That's true.
>> I'm telling you what I do know. I'm not just asking questions. I'm stating facts. And the fact is that the Israelis gave Donald Trump false information and he went with their information. And now we're in this war, which has hurt American interests in ways we can't even understand right now. And I think it's hurt Israel, too. By the way,
>> Mr. Carson,
>> that's just a fact. That's not anti-semitism.
>> Mr. Carson, are you running for office? Do you consider running for office? I am not running for office. I have no plans to run for office. I am starting to believe that the Republican party does not serve the United States and I certainly believe the Democratic Party does not serve the United States. So at this point, so it's miday 2026, I hope there is an option to those two parties because I think they are so discredited, the lying has been so damaging to the United States that they have almost no credibility with Americans anymore. Um and so I hope we have an option. I would like a democracy in the United States like I'd like one in Israel. Israel is not a democracy. The United States apparently is not a democracy either. Our government keeps doing things that people don't want. So that's not democracy. It's the opposite of democracy. And I want democracy very very much.
>> I want democracy too. So here's at least one point that we totally agree. Mr. Carlson, thank you very much for this interview. Thank you very much for talking to me.
>> Thank you for having me.
>> Thank you very much. See you.
>> See you.