Excommunicated for Openly Disbelieving Joseph Smith's Polygamy - Karen Hyatt | Ep. 2096

Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host John Delin. It is December 18th, 2025 and today we are covering the excommunication, the recent excommunication as of two weeks ago tomorrow. So we're talking December 5th, uh Karen Hyatt was excommunicated for a stunning and surprising reason. Uh, she was excommunicated for believing that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and for believing that Joseph Smith was not a sexual predator, but instead was a monogamous, faithful husband. Is that fair to say? Did I Did I get that wrong?

>> I think people might bulk at your [laughter] phrasing there, but that he was faithful to Emma. I believe he told the truth, that he did not practice polygamy, and that he was faithful to Emma. And it's, and just to clarify right off the bat, >> I wasn't excommunicated for believing it. I was excommunicated for being public about it. That's the distinction. [laughter]

>> All right. Well, we're going to get into all that, but just to uh just to give a tiny bit of background, uh many of you who've been following Mormon stories will know that recently in the past, I don't know, year, I interviewed uh Michelle Stone, who is historically one of the more prominent influencers in modern times for um disbelieving the history that historians put forward um claiming that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Uh, and uh, her channel uh, 132 Reasons Problems Problems >> Revisiting Mormon Polygamy >> um, was was uh, had over 100,000 subscribers, was doing very very well. And uh, I don't know that she's been public about why she stopped doing the YouTube channel. So I don't want to claim any special knowledge that isn't public. But let's just say she's no longer currently uh releasing videos on that channel. Y'all can uh do your own math or speculate as to why that might be, but um she's uh working like a busy bee. Michelle is working like a busy bee to pursue graduate school and also to start up a journal called the Journal of Mormon polygamy with Cheryl Bruno to do academic to sponsor academic work, conferences, journal articles around u the evidence surrounding uh Joseph Smith polygamy or Joseph Smith non-polygamy and other you know Mormon polygy polygamy more generally.

But um it it it has been rumored and I think it's evidenced that the LDS church has become very uncomfortable with people holding the position that that Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist um and that he was honest in uh claiming that he was uh a monogamist. And so the question has been, will the church take that extra step to start excommunicating people who publicly voice those beliefs? And on Mormon Stories podcast, we have a long, long history of covering Mormon church excommunications for apostasy. We've covered Grant Palmer. We've covered Jeremy Reynolds. We've covered myself. We've covered Kate Kelly. We've covered Bill Reel, Natasha Haler, Sam Young, and many, many others because we have strong feelings uh about the church uh excommunicating people for apostasy the way that it does. And so that's what we're going to be covering today. We are really grateful to have Karen Hyatt on uh the show to talk about her recent excommunication. And we are we traditionally live stream these episodes. So we also very much welcome our live streamed audience and we invite our live stream audience to uh post questions or comments and we will do our best to share those. The best way to make sure your um your comments or questions are shared is to share them as a super chat um that's a YouTube feature uh that it helps notify us and and and filter to the top the most pressing and important questions or comments. So, please do that. Viewers and listeners, we welcome you. We also thank our our donors to Mormon Stories podcast that make all this possible. Also, the last thing I'll say for business is we're like two or three thousand YouTube subscribers away from hitting that 300,000 mark. We really want to hit it. It would be great to reach it by January 1st, 2026. So, please take a second to both like this episode and subscribe on YouTube or on Spotify. That would make a huge difference. So without any further ado, Karen, before we jump in to your story, um is there anything you want to say at the outset in terms of your intentions, uh what you do or or um anything you want to clarify or add to or take away from my introduction?

>> Oh, um, let's clarify that the Journal of Mormon Polygamy is up and they're having their second conference on March 20th and 21st. So people can go to journal of mormonp polyolgamy.org and sign up for that if they want. So now I won't get killed by any specific people who would have liked me to say that. So

>> perfect.

>> Um, no, I you just fire away John and we'll talk and and uh I don't have any particular I just I'm so happy that you would have me on. I'm really grateful for that. Um, I think this is super important. Um, it's a super important message and it's just an odd thing to be, you know, excommunicated for these reasons. It's just completely unexpected. I would have never believed it. People right now when I tell them, they they can't believe it. And so, I'm really glad to be able to come on and tell the story. And it's funny because of course Mormon stories is more associated with, you know, anti- Mormons, ex Mormons, whatever. But I love that you've been branching out to talk to like Michelle Stone or more recently Greg Matson. And when I heard your intro for the Greg Matson episode, I was just wildly impressed. Like that what a laudable thing to do to say, you know, I want to be a little more balanced and talk to maybe faithful members and things like that. And I I just thought that was fantastic because, you know, I I debated for a moment, but really I I wanted to come on. I'm I I'm happy for any opportunity to talk about this. I really appreciate it.

>> Well, that makes me feel really good. I get I'm getting the chills Holy Ghost sort of uh effect where I'm feeling the hair standing up on my arms and neck because I do think it's better that we talk to each other than about each other. But I also think we need to model healthy civil discourse, peacemaking, bridge building, and just open communication. So, I love it that it's this conversation is framed that way. I really am glad you uh valued my conversation with Greg and I want to get better and better at it. Some even said I was a little bit too spicy with Michelle. So, I want to get better and better. I know I was too spicy with Rod Meldram. Uh, but uh, Cara, I'm going to blame Cara Burrilla a little bit for that. You felt I was okay with Michelle?

>> I did. Okay, good.

>> I think we both did. I mean, I thought it was great. I mean, you had her on for six hours.

>> Yeah, I did. I think people were like, "Let her rest." Oh, that was so funny. That was so funny. She called me in the morning and she's like, "I'm so sick." And I said, "You're still going on." She says, "I'm still going on." And then uh later in the comments, you know, if you watch it and fast forward, you can just watch her shrink down as the time goes on. And in the comment section, they started a hashtag free Michelle. It was so funny.

>> Yeah, totally. I love that. Anyway, she's I I really consider her a dear friend, and it's nice to meet you as well.

>> Yeah. [clears throat]

>> So, uh Okay. And let me just as as the outset for those who let me just say if you really want a more deeper dive into the details of like whether or not the evidence suggests that Joseph Smith did or didn't practice polygamy, that's not what today is primarily going to be about. Like I do want to give Karen a chance to share how she arrived at her position and I may ask a few questions just to sort of understand that. But do not expect today some big battle or push back or debate on that point that we're bridge building. We're peacemaking. We're doing open dialogue. And mostly I'm just today curious about Karen's story, Karen's thinking. And so that's what today's going to be about. How does that how does that sound?

>> That's fine. it it has to play a part because it's you don't understand the absurdity unless you do see some of the documentation and not a lot but I will quote you a few things and it's just you know it's crazy it's really crazy to be um to be balking at this new kind of narrative that's a legitimate possibility to say the least um the end of my presentation well go ahead I talk about

>> no that's keep going

>> well so I compiled documents I don't know how far you want to go back, but um

>> to to your story.

>> Yeah. Should we just dive in and

>> Yeah. Well, let me ask a few I I like to establish people's backstory a little bit if that's okay.

>> Um

>> the quick version.

>> Yeah. So, your parents were they raised in the church?

>> No. So, my parents joined the church, I believe, before I was born because I understand that I was blessed in the church. So, that I know that they wanted to raise their kids in a religion. So this probably isn't the right their converts.

>> What state did they join in or

>> California? So my dad knew a really great guy, really upstanding guy at work and admired him. Turned out he was LDS. So so they joined that church and um mom had some questions, you know, kind of early on and was told like just have faith, you know, we don't have answers for those. She's like what? And so she quickly kind of fell away and that's that's fine. No big deal. But when I was 15 or so, they came back to church. Mom found her way back to church through some cool things that happened.

>> It was Southern Cal, Northern California.

>> Um, Northern California by this time by the time

>> they they they joined in Southern California. We moved up north to Fremont. It's between San Jose and Oakland.

>> Okay.

>> And uh so she finds her way back to church. I'm not interested. I'm 15 at the time. And I just organized religion I thought was a scam. Like why would I pay somebody to read me the Bible?

>> So you weren't really raised Mormon, per se. Okay. Okay.

>> Were you raised kind of secular or?

>> Yeah. Just normal just a normal kid, you know? I

>> religion just wasn't a thing in your family.

>> Yeah. And I always believed in God. Okay.

>> I absolutely believed in God. And I could I just could tell he was there. That's all I can say. But

>> but um Okay. So, a couple years after they came back to to activity, um I was at home alone and a couple of missionaries came by the house and uh one of them was of exceedingly fine workmanship, shall we say? And so, missionary,

>> hot missionary. So, when they wanted to come back,

>> you know, can we come back when your parents are here? Sure. You know, absolutely you can. I'm 17. So, anyway, they came back and uh fine [clears throat] workmanship had been transferred. Of course, that wasn't the plan, you know. So these missionaries start teaching me and but I don't even understand why they're there. So sometimes I would be there and sometimes I wouldn't and my parents would be like, "Well, you missed the missionaries today." I was like, "Well, that's fine. I hope you had a nice chat." I really didn't understand that they were there there just for me. So um long story short, I eventually began to feel that God wanted me to be baptized. And I was very spiritually immature, very, very immature in every [laughter] way. So my big thing was I don't want to get my hair wet in front of people. I mean that's the extent of my thoughtfulness on this. But I did just kind of start to feel like God wanted me to get baptized. So I did. Um, it was a good year later that I really understood like the treasure that I had in the Book of Mormon and the story of Joseph Smith. Like this isn't the same story. This is somebody that's claimed to have seen God. That does change things, right? So I joined the church um was not very active the first year kind of got a testimony and was all in after that. So I I did

>> So this is around what level high school year?

>> 83 is when I joined. So I was 17.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> And uh eventually went up to high school.

>> Uh senior.

>> Senior. Okay. Okay. Okay.

>> If I recall. Yeah. I think I'm doing the math good. I don't I don't know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I guess I I guess I was baptized the summer before my senior year. There you go.

>> Okay.

>> Um, so then eventually went up to Rick's College, which was a miracle in itself to even pursue more education because I was the type that I I didn't love being at school. You know, I aced tests. I did well on tests, but I hated homework. So I would usually flunk the class if it required a lot of homework. So anyway, went up to Rick's College. Kind of the same pattern there. my first year was invited not to come back because I again if the class required homework I didn't do well

>> and so my GPA was terrible so uh ended up going on a mission

>> Oh

>> okay

>> to Montreal Canada

>> and

>> French speaking

>> French speaking okay

>> had lots of French companions was pretty fun

>> anyway came home had it together a little bit better by that time went out

>> Did you enjoy your mission

>> loved my mission loved it was terrific. Yeah, it was awesome. Highly recommend. Um, came back, went to went back to Rick's [laughter] and retook all those classes that I had failed and replaced them with A's. My GPA went from something like a 2.1 to a 3.7. And that was before they raised the bar at BYU, so I was able to sneak in there.

>> So, I went to BYU

>> and then end up

>> Provo BYU Provo.

>> Right. She transferred.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> Um, marriage wasn't super high on my list. hadn't grown up with that thought. Was happy to put that off for a long time, but my um, you know, boyfriend had different ideas, so he proposed, so we got married anyway. So, it was all good. He proposed a little earlier than I would have preferred. He knew that, but it worked out great. And I love that guy, and I can't imagine anyone better. He's the biggest blessing in my life. So, anyway, those that

>> You've been married to this man for how long?

>> Since 91.

>> Whoa. So it's a 34

>> 34 years. That's huge. Congratulations.

>> It is. He's He's fantastic. We're We're an effective team. He's He's terrific.

>> So Temple married?

>> Yes. Oakland.

>> Oakland Temple.

>> Mhm.

>> And how many kids did you all have together?

>> Four.

>> Okay. Four kids.

>> Yep. They're 32 down to 26 right now. Three are married.

>> Okay.

>> And uh I'm just curious, are the three married in the temple or Okay. Wow. Okay. Wow.

>> So, we're we're all in, right?

>> All in. [clears throat] Um,

>> the kind of person you want to kick out of your church, I would say.

>> I'm That's kind of what I'm building for. [laughter] So, uh, so were you a stay at home mom or?

>> Uhhuh. Yes. He he always had jobs that allowed me to stay at home. So, I was really happy about that.

>> Where did y'all basically raise your family?

>> So, um, after we graduated BYU, he actually got a job offer right back where I grew up in California. So, that was crazy. So, we went back there and and lived there for um three years. And then, you know, California is great. Like, I love it. The Bay Area is awesome. You're right by Santa Cruz, San Francisco. Lots of stuff to do. But if you have little kids, it's just not the same. You even the beach, it's like sand in the diaper. It's just not cool. So, it also got really, really crowded and it was impossible to even decide to go to Walmart at 3 p.m. cuz you're like, "Wait, do the math. I can't because we'll be in gridlock on the way home. Like it's that crowded. So anyway, one day he called and said, "Hey, I just went to a job fair." And I was like, "Oh, he is gonna say Utah. Don't even because when we lived in Utah for a couple years when we first got married, you know, it's a forplex. There was no garage. Scraping the windshield every single winter day. It was a nightmare." And so that's what I pictured, you know. So, of course, he says Utah. But we moved back and it's just life's different if you have a garage. So it was awesome. So we've loved it. We've been here for 27 years. So we're in West Jordan.

>> Okay. So that's in Salt Lake City in the Salt Lake Valley, Salt Lake County,

>> but on the west side.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh that's where the Jordan River Temple is. Is that right?

>> Um, yeah, closeish.

>> That's South Jordan, but yeah.

>> Okay.

>> Uh, we've got And also South Jordan has Ochre Mountain Temple. We're closer to that one.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> Okay. So, uh, raised four kids faithful in the church. Yeah. Was there ever a point where y'all were doubting or questioning or apostates or like inactive during these 30 whatever years?

>> Not even a little. And

>> really,

>> and I want to I want to clarify like, you know, we did family home evening. We did all sorts of we were all in and we didn't do the things because the church said to do them. We did them because we thought God wanted us to do them. And so that was I mean that's a I think it's an important distinction.

>> We weren't checking boxes. We weren't we just weren't doing that. And we would learn together and our we and our children had a pattern of learning together. You know, if somebody had a question, it's like that's a good question. It was never like well that's how it is in the church or in the church this is what we do. It it was just this is what God wants us to do.

>> Yeah.

>> So that was

>> Yeah.

>> It was cool because we didn't have the checkbox mentality. So if somebody, you know, if we discovered something that didn't match, it was okay. It didn't throw us for a loop or anything.

>> Well, I can already see why that's a recipe for danger from the church's standpoint that you're doing things intrinsically, not not out of obedience, um, per se.

>> Obedience to

>> the church,

>> right? Obedience [laughter] to God. Obedience to God.

>> Not to be cynical, but I mean,

>> sure. I No, I get you, John. And, you know, I don't blame you. Like, I get that. And it's very common in that sort of um it's a it is a culty mindset, you know, and I just feel like we were able to avoid that to a large degree. Yeah.

>> And it it just wasn't on our radar. We just we just assumed that what came down from the church was from God.

>> So anyway, it's all good.

>> So in terms of callings, did you ever serve like in primary relief society and women's

>> all the things? So yes, stake young women president. What? You were a stake young women's president.

>> Now, should I be offended that you're surprised? What does this mean?

>> No, no, no, no, no, no. This is I'm just I don't know you, but like I always it's it's you know, Mormons care about status and positions and titles even though we're we we say we don't, but we all do. And I just want to let especially my never Mormons understand stake stake young women's president is a very high status level position. It means that over like 10 or 12 wards or congregations and this is Salt Lake Valley. So this is like the heart of Utah. She's leading the young women's programs for like 10 congregations. And it it it needs to be said that the church values its youth more than any other asset. I think it's fair to say the church cares about its youth. So the woman who's leading 10 congregations of young women, that's that's probably a position of higher status than bishop in Mormonism. And and I only say that because Mormons care about status and and title and position and power. So it's a credit. It's a huge credit to you and to your devotion. You They didn't let me near the youth. They didn't let me near the youth. Right. So,

>> so and again,

>> is that unfair what I just said or is that okay?

>> No, no, I I get that. And um, you know, believe it or not, I just never considered it that. I didn't want to. There was no ladder climbing. I just was glad that God would trust me.

>> Yeah. You wanted to serve.

>> Well, yeah. And it felt like again it felt like God was trusting me with these young women and and really in all seriousness the stake young women presidency you know not to denigrate but it's like it's the ward young women's presidencies that do all the work. So we are more like cheerleaders for the ward leaders.

>> But you did that too where you were a young women's leader.

>> Sure.

>> Were you relief society president?

>> I can't think of very many positions that I haven't held.

>> So you've been relief society president.

>> Uhhuh. And stake relief society. uh counselor.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> So, yeah. Yeah.

>> So, this is as an accomplished of a woman as can really happen in Mormonism save an auxiliary like general relief study presidency.

>> Sure. And and you know, we've been in this area for 27 years, this ward for most of that. And so, you know, that's the blessing of it when people hear about this. And I'm very open about this because it's there's nothing I've done nothing wrong. So I I want people to understand if they hear through the grapevine that I've been excommunicated, I don't want them to be like, "Did she murder somebody?" Right? So I'm very open about it. And when they hear that I'm excommunicated, the response is not, "Oh my goodness, what did you really do?" The response is, "What the I thought that was for bad people or, you know, evil things or whatever," you know, and it's like, yeah, it's it's really not. I mean, it's they're just surprised. And I love them for that. There's some comments about like this idea of status and position. I think also what I'm trying to address because I've covered a lot of these excommunications is um the the idea that somebody who's an apostate, someone who's an ex Mormon wanted to sin or never really believed, you know, or uh was was a weak, you know, not really ever committed member to begin with. And I think by talking about these positions, we're basically dispelling all of that in one fell swoop.

>> That's fair. Um, you know, you certainly can hi can hold, you know, high positions in the church without being allin. Like I I do see that, you know, where people aren't really focused on Christ, but they do hold high positions. I mean, that happens. We all know that happens, right?

>> But um, but that just wasn't didn't happen to be in the case here. Like I loved God. He was number one all the time. And I was grateful to be trusted with these with these positions. So it was cool.

>> Perfect. All right. So my my experience with sort of the faith challenges I had was that I was taught this correlated correlated correlated narrative in the 80s the same time you were getting active in the church that um was very different from what I later understood the historical record to actually show. So, it wasn't until the my early 30s where I started getting uh presented evidence around, let's just say, Joseph Smith translation of the Book of Mormon or Book of Mormon historicity or in my case, claims about Joseph Smith's polygamy that then just threw me for a loop. So what I want to know is first of all are you okay with that framing of like the history that the church allows the members to see that's often viewed as whitewashed versus like actually learning the historical record. Are you even okay with that sort of narrative?

>> Yeah.

>> I want to level set a little bit.

>> Sure. And what I have done is I wouldn't say church I would say church historians. And people do um push back uh on that a little bit, but the more I look at it, I mean, I just still see that it's the historians setting the narrative because the church has the church leaders have said several times that when they have questions about something, they turn to experts. And so and Quinton Cook, you know, held up the Saints book and said, "We wanted a place where people could go for real information, for correct, accurate information." So we hired these historians to write this saints book. So that's, you know, to me, I don't think that the brethren that the apostles are truly digging into the history. And I could be wrong. If someone knows differently, please let me know. But as far as I can tell, they've outsourced it. the historians, the historians are giving them a very inaccurate version of the history and leaving out so much.

>> But mostly I'm interested in your experience with Mormon with credible academic scholarly Mormon history starting from your uh real conversion to the church as a teenager. Mhm.

>> Did Did you you know ever did when did you like were you ever taught that Joseph Smith was a polygamist growing up? Did you ever learn about Fon Brody or the Tanners or any of the questions around Book of Mormon historicity, Book of Abraham stuff? Was that stuff never really part of your Mormon consciousness even into adulthood? Okay.

>> Not really. Okay. Not really. Um, you know, we would hear about the God makers or something like that, right? Um, as far as Joseph Joseph Smith's polygamy, they really didn't talk about that in the 80s.

>> No. Um,

>> no, they did not.

>> You know, but Doctrine and Covenants 132 has always been there. Okay. Right. So, it's in there and it's like, well, that's disturbing, you know.

>> So, you had read DNC 132 or did you pay attention?

>> You know, at some point, probably years into my marriage, I probably hadn't read it,

>> you know, before. Okay.

>> Before I was married or had been married for some years, but at some point, you know, I read the whole scriptures. I mean, I read all of them. Of course, I'd read the Book of Mormon many times and and of course, I wanted to read the Standard Works all the way through and things like that. So, I I'm sure I'd read it and it's I mean, it's just horrible, right? It's like this loving God all of a sudden turns into this kind of monster guy and he's just like, you know, well, you need the first wife's permission, but if she doesn't give it, she's going to be destroyed. And you're like, that's not cool. Okay, that seems awful. And it just sounded awful. And so,

>> well, let me let me let me let me jump in there. So, when do you remember the first time you read DNC32? Like, I just think most members skim through DNC32, and I think the church curriculum even tries to discourage people from really paying close attention to it. Agreed.

>> Because it's so problematic.

>> It is so problematic. It's it's ar it's it's arguable that DCNC 132

>> is the most problematic chapter of scripture in all of Mormonism.

>> Amen.

>> Is that fair? [laughter]

>> It's totally fair. It is ridiculous. I mean verse I mean verse one calls Isaac a polygamist, which he's not. He's not.

>> And it's like and I've had people actually bend over backwards and say, "Well, this is where we learn that he is." And I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" Like, if that was the case, he'd be telling us who the wives are. You know what I mean? You don't just drop a bomb like that. You know, if you're God and you're like, "This is how I'll teach them. I'll just drop a name here. That's ridiculous." And then verse three goes, "Oh, Joseph, prepare your heart for what I'm about to reveal to you because this is really this new doctrine." And then a couple verses later, it's like, Emma needs to accept all the wives that you've been given. Like, that doesn't make a bit of sense. Are you kidding me? Like, is it introducing it or does he already have a bunch of wives? It's absolutely internally a hot mess. So, I didn't notice that. And it introduces the law of Sarah saying the first wife needs to approve all wives. But but according to the official historical narrative,

>> Joseph's already got 20 plus wives by this point.

>> Absolutely.

>> So why would God introduce the law of Sarah requiring Emma to approve wives when Joseph's already got 20.

>> Yeah. And according to their own story, she didn't approve it. But it's in it's

>> Yeah. And then but that also Yes. There's a lot of Sarah, but then also God immediately says that if the first wife doesn't approve, she's going to be destroyed and Joseph gets to have the wives anyway. Like it's probably it's tunes. Okay. [laughter] And I didn't notice that reading it through the first time. I didn't notice these things, you know. I just thought geez, it's harsh like we most of us do, you know. And you know what? Just real quick before I forget or before we get off this or something and I forget to say it. Joseph absolutely got a revelation on July 12th, 1843. This is what it's claimed to be, but it definitely was not. Four days later, it's absolutely in his journal that he got a revelation on July 12th. On July 16th, the historians acknowledge that this is the first time he's teaching about eternal marriage publicly. So, I think it's pretty obvious what the revelation on July 12th was about. It was about eternal marriage. It wasn't about polygamy. But anyway, I just wanted to make sure.

>> Let's get into that. But I do want to establish your story. So, when was the first time you remember

>> reading DNC 132 with a lot of like focus and scrutiny,

>> thoughtfulness. Okay.

>> How many years ago?

>> Well, you know, so when I read it through, I'm sure I didn't see all this the first time. It just seemed harsh. You just kind of have this vague idea. But hey, we have the Old Testament in which, you know, you have Uzzah touching the ark and getting stricken dead, right? Like there are some harsh Yeah, there are some harsh tones

>> um in the scriptures in general. So, I just sort of choked it up to

>> that, you know, it didn't seem that preposterous. It was disturbing

>> until later. I mean, after you get married and you, you know, pretty soon you look at that thing and you're like, are you serious? Like, there's going to be some other chick in our marriage. Like, that is messed, you know?

>> Well, that's what I'm that's what I'm trying to pinpoint. Can you think of anything that was like an awakening

>> where you started going, "Wait a minute. I I haven't been this starting to bug me or

>> No, it's gradual. And I think it is for most people. I don't know if there's probably some women read through it, you know, for the first time late in life and go, "What the heck?" But it's gradual and the more you know the longer you're married and the more you think about it and the more you love your husband you're like this is really a problem. And I never doubted God. So I just always said I guess I'll he'll change my heart. I guess he'll make it make sense later. Right? I just knew John that I would not get to the other side and be ticked off or disappointed or anything. I had implicit faith that I would be happy. I never doubted that.

>> I think that's what most Mormons feel is whatever ceiling means, whatever eternal families means, God will make it all right.

>> God will make it all right. But you know what? There are many women who have this is the saddest thing ever. I know more than one woman who has prayed, "God, if this is really a thing, please let my husband go ahead and be in the celestial kingdom and I will take a lower kingdom cuz I can't live like that." They have prayed that sincere willing to sacrifice their eternal

>> exaltation. Yeah, that's messed

>> because polygamy is as messed as you get. That's how tangled

>> your mind gets with this stuff. In Carolyn Pearson's book, The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, she still thinks Joseph was a polygamist because she's I I'm confident she hasn't seen the original documents, but she's read many, many books about him, right? So, they're all by historians that say he is. So, she still thinks he is, but what's valuable about her book are the many, many, many firsthand testimonies that are in there. She solicited people's accounts when she was doing her book. Please tell me your experience with this. Yeah, the way it was lots of stuff just marriage destroying. You know, this one girl, I mean, her whole first week of marriage was miserable because she just kept thinking, I hope I don't die young because I know he's going to marry again if I do and I'll have to live polygamy in heaven. I mean, this is this is horrific. This is so damaging that there are no words.

>> Yeah. And I want to refer people I've interviewed Carolyn Pearson about the ghost of eternal polygamy. Please check out, we'll put that in the show notes, a link to that episode. You can also just buy her book. It's it's fantastic. Carolyn Pearson is a legend. Okay, so back to your story.

>> Yeah. I'm trying to pinpoint. There is a point where like there's like a tipping point where in your mind it's either like there's a problem here or like I'm going to need to start speaking up or you start reading or listening to alternative voices that the church wouldn't approve. I want to do do your best to what year?

>> 2022.

>> Okay. I think it was talking three years ago.

>> Yeah. Just a few years ago.

>> Let's talk about Okay, let's go there. So, what happens in 2022

>> is for I don't know what reason. It turns out my husband was looking into stuff and didn't tell me because he was worried that I would think he's apostate or whatever. So, he wasn't sharing a lot with me. The things that he was learning.

>> This is like still co or little post little

>> after. Yeah. Co was I mean that's a whole another subject. It was like okay, they can make big boo boos. I get it. You know, I should just

>> So, you you didn't love that the church encouraged people to get the vaccine or the masks or wear masks. Will you talk about that for just a second if you're comfortable?

>> Yes, I'm I'm fine with that. I have been looking into the United Nations and let's say geopolitics since 2007. So, I actually anyway did some work on that. Did quite a bit of work on that, let's say. And so, I knew the pattern of the UN and the WHO and they would just occasionally uh cry pandemic. It's just periodic. And the pattern is, you know, this is totally off topic, but the pattern is scare everyone. The governments all sign contracts to buy X number of millions of vaccines and then it turns out it's not a big pandemic and the vaccines go to waste, but they've all made this money. So that is a pattern that happens over and over and over and all these scare things that grow government. And so this is a pattern that I was very very familiar with. And if I can and if I could just give a disclaimer because there's people feel I know there are so that's why we won't

>> the purpose of today's episode is not to adjudicate vaccines for those of you who want me to argue with her. That's not what today's about

>> and it's not I'm not talking about vaccines in particular. I am talking about COVID in specifically I'm talking about CO specifically. So um and that is I mean all the documentation says that's right. It wasn't what they said that like now if you just look for two seconds. So that's fine. But um, you know, so there I just alienated half of your audience and maybe half of my so it's all good. Well, no, I'm kidding.

>> Yeah. No, no, no. I

>> There's already a comment like somebody says, "Oh, conspiracy theories." And I just want to say

>> we're trying to let people tell their story. Yeah. Let's be respectful.

>> No. And and I don't mind that at all. I do not mind that if someone wants to say that because it's that's their perception. And I I know it because I've looked into documents. I have documents. It's not my opinion. And it's not my theory, it's what they've said about it. So, um I actually compiled all this into a website in 2021. So,

>> about their words about CO and so it's it's all good.

>> But let but let's just say the important thing is for your story, the church's reaction to CO was troublesome.

>> Appalling. Yes. And I thought, you're kidding. Like, you don't know that this happens. And so, um

>> you know, so people were split. Our stake was pretty cool about it. our ward. Um, anyway, our ward was probably extra cool about it. We didn't wear a mask, you know, and so, you know, we didn't get a lot of flak, just people understood. And also, I got people saying, you know, my husband wasn't going to come anymore because he doesn't want to wear a mask, but here's your husband in the bishop without a mask, and so he can come now, you know. So, it enabled people on both sides to come. We were never in anyone's face about it. Not Not once. I never shoved this in anyone's face, you know, during COVID at church or anything like that. I didn't even I think I made like two posts on Facebook because at the time I was relief society president and I didn't want to alienate any sisters that might feel uncomfortable polit you know uncomfortable politically like I didn't want to drive any wedges between me and anyone and so I just went out and I you know gave sisters hugs. They were very grateful that I would visit them in person and not just drop stuff on their porch. Like again, it was just God-centered. It was like, "What does God want me to do?" I know president during co

>> Yes.

>> Okay. And yeah, I I don't think we've adequately covered on Mormon stories the impact of Russell M. Nelson's decision to support masks and or support the vaccine on Mormon LD elas church member faithfulness. But it's it was probably a significant blow to maybe hundreds of thousands of members.

>> Would you say

>> I would absolutely say that over and over people go well what shook me you know what started me getting to look more critically at things was co so it was it was a blessing in disguise but let me just say this for people who are uptight that I went and visited people or whatever I knew I was well I was very aware that I was well and not sick. So that's why I would go to people's houses. I had elderly ladies in our ward whose whose grown children would not visit them because they were told to stay away. Now I knew that suicides and despair were up incredibly and I just didn't want that on my watch. So I would visit these sweet elderly sisters. We're still good friends because we would go over and play dominoes or whatever when their kids wouldn't visit them. So that's what drove me is just trying to do what the savior would do which is you know visit the afflict the lonely and the sick and the afflicted and so that's what I did. So anyway that that's all. So ah so what you're talking about though

>> that probably softened

>> it sounds like even as relief study president in in Salt Lake County Valley that probably started having you go oh man the brethren don't always get it right maybe a little more than you would have felt prior to co is that fair to say

>> that's fair to say

>> softened your confidence in the brethren's

>> infallibility we'll say

>> and I never thought that they were infallible. To clarify, I knew very early on that Bruce McConkie had said, you know, the blacks will never get the priesthood until the millennium or those kind of things. So, I never labored under the delusion that the brethren couldn't make a mistake. I didn't think they would make a really big mistake, but I knew that they could. Does that make some sense? So, I never thought they were infallible, but I didn't expect that degree of um of mistake, let's say, of error that I personally thought they had made during COVID. So, you're right. That was a big I mean, lots of people were like, "What the cuz we've looked at the documents. We've looked at we know what a PCR test is and that it wasn't used correctly and all these things, right?" So, yes. So, so that you're right. And I spent months like a lot of us did just racking my brain. Why are they doing this? Why are they doing this? Are they playing 3D, you know, 4D chess? Are they biting their time? Is there a reason for this? Is this just to keep temples open? All the things. And at some point, I finally realized, you know what? I can stop racking my brain and wondering what the heck by just forgiving them. And I just forgave them. And once it became a question of forgiveness, that was like instantaneous. It was like it was just off my shoulders because I know God can help me forgive people. That's his forte. So I forgave them and that was that I moved on. I didn't have to keep on, you know, stewing over why why why.

>> But it's Yeah. But not to belabor the point, but it's telling that as a faithful, lifelong committed Latter-day Saint, you felt the need to forgive the LDS church prophet and his leaders for their co their actions around co

>> and that's that's valid. I mean, it is

>> valid. You clearly weren't the only person who felt that way.

>> No, [clears throat] [laughter] not by a long shot. So, okay. So, enough with that. Everybody come back from both sides here.

>> We'll quit dividing everyone. Yes.

>> So, fast forward to I I would say it was 2022. It could have been 2023.

>> You said your husband started

>> Yeah. He was doing stuff. He was looking at stuff and he just was worried that I'd freak out, so he didn't share. But be that as it may, we kind of have a different recollection of how we first started talking about all this. But here's the kicker. I mean, the the main pivot point was when on my YouTube feed here popped up a video called, "Who was the first LDS polygamist, Joseph or Brigham?" This is by a guy named Rob Fatheringham. And I was like, "What is that a question?" Like, I've never heard that question in my life, you know? It's in the Doctrine in Covenants. Of course, it was Joseph, right? So, I watch his video and he has all the receipts. He's got documentation. He shows that Joseph Smith denied polygamy every single time he talked about it. He condemned it without exception. Brigham condemned it without exception. Emma maintained throughout her life till her dying day that he never had any other wife but her in any sense, spiritual or otherwise. And it was unequivocal. I was like, "What the heck?" And he's got quotes from Brigham that you've never heard. It's like, where is this coming from? Remind me who this guy is again.

>> Rob Fatheringham. He we all I mean everybody in this camp just sees him as a hero.

>> Excommunicated.

>> Yes. Not at the time he did that video.

>> Okay.

>> He was still in he worked for the church's IT department.

>> Oh. He was a church employee.

>> Yep. And he he was helping with the gospel library app back in the day. And as he helped with that, he'd run across this history and be like, "Whoa, that doesn't match the narrative that we've been told." And so he saw that and he started

Um, you know, publishing, being public about it, making some videos, and his wife was very worried that he was going to get in trouble. So he asked his supervisor, who said, "I mean, it's just church history, you're fine." [laughter] So he was fine until, you know, was fine until it wasn't. And so he ended up getting excommunicated.

>> What was his or is his YouTube YouTube channel called? Does it have?

>> I think it's just Rob Fatheringham. I hope that's correct.

>> Okay.

>> Um, but yeah, if you type that in. Anyway, so he has this video and he's just got all these receipts. And I thought, are these real? He didn't have links, John. So I had to look at his screenshots, which included the URL on some of the screenshots. So I'm zooming in and typing, painstakingly typing in these silly URLs, you know, FQP R, right? The whole thing. And sure enough, they come up and they're from the Joseph Smith Papers project. They're from totally legit sources. And in two hours, I was done. Complete paradigm shift. Done with polygamy. Not a thing. Didn't come from Joseph.

>> Wow. This makes so much more sense. The universe just clicked into place. Cuz you're like, how, how can he do this behind Emma's back? And how can he do this awful thing and still have brought forth the Book of Mormon, still have functioned as a servant of God? It's crazy because we have this story that we've passed down, and I have no reason to doubt it, that Joseph and Emma once had a tiff and then he went to translate and he couldn't. Do you remember this story? Until he went back and made things right with Emma, and then after that was taken care of, then he could translate again. How do you have that story? But you also have the story that he was, you know, marrying women behind her back and she was so ticked off about it, but somehow he's still bringing forth scripture and being an instrument of God. That makes those two stories don't mesh at all. They don't make sense. So yes, at the end of verifying the documents that Rob Fatheringham had shown, I was done. It was like, awesome. I just was like doing cartwheels mentally, right? And thinking, this is the best news ever. So I was so excited because everybody's going to be so happy about this. [laughter]

>> So, for our, for our never-Mormons, I want to try and do like the history of the Mormon church's position on polygamy in like two minutes. Is that okay?

>> Sure.

>> Okay. So, here's and here's how I will say I understand it. Okay. I'm not saying it's right.

>> And I, I think it's fair to say you studied this more than me, but anyway, which is saying something. Um, [laughter] so, uh, so, so, um, what we know for sure is that when, uh, when Joseph Smith came out with the Book of Mormon, it basically condemns polygamy with a small caveat saying, "Unless the Lord needs to prepare a righteous seed." But, but basically, you could basically, and and Michelle is good at helping me understand this, there are dozens and dozens of verses where it, the Book of Mormon condemns whoredoms and concubines and all sorts of things. So it's fair to say that the Book of Mormon is overwhelmingly condemnatory of polygamy with maybe one little possible caveat.

>> And that little caveat deserves a moment. It just takes a moment, John. It's, it's the verse is he's Jacob. This is in Jacob 2. And he's just spent the whole thing telling how terrible polygamy is. And you people are doing it and you're excusing yourselves by what's been done by them of old. And he says, um, "Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, sayeth the Lord." It's unequivocal. And then you have the Doctrine of Covenants saying, "No, no, no. I gave David all his wives, just Ba'ath Sheba was the problem." It's they're irreconcilable. And I remember seeing that those were totally at odds with each other and thinking, well, the Doctrine of Covenants is newer. I guess it's right. I'm totally ashamed of that now. But the, the verse you're talking about is after Jacob condemns this in no uncertain terms, then he says, "For if I will, sayeth the Lord, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people, otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." And we think it's saying, you know, if I want a bunch of kids, I'll command my people to do polygamy. Otherwise, you'll hearken unto this monogamy that I've been telling you about that whole time. So, if you take it out of context like that, you, you can say, "Okay, that makes sense." It doesn't make sense because the next verse says, "For I have seen the sorrow that it causes my daughters." If you interpret verse 30 as an exception that the Lord's saying, "Sometimes I'll command polygamy." This is what you get. I'm going to command polygamy sometimes because I see that it breaks my daughter's [laughter] heart.

>> Yeah, of course.

>> Read it carefully.

>> It does. By the way, objectively destroys and crushes them. And the whole rest of it and the next chapter says the Lamanites are doing better than you cuz they only have one wife. I mean, the whole thing is unequivocal. So, that little thing that we think is a loophole or an exception, read it carefully in context. It makes zero sense. He's saying, "If I want to raise up righteous seed, seed unto me, people that keep commandments, I will command my people. I will be giving them commandments."

>> Yeah.

>> If I don't, if I don't, they will hearken unto the abominations I was just talking about. That is what it means.

>> So, viewers and listeners, yeah, we don't want you to listen to her or me. Go read the Book of Mormon and read it with an open mind and decide what you think the context is. I'm not personally taking a position today.

>> Right. Right. Right. I want to hear her story. But this is an important part of your story.

>> It really is. There is no exception. So can now you can continue. So yes, the Book of Mormon condemning.

>> Okay. So the Book of Mormon is pretty much overwhelmingly condemning polygamy, if not totally condemning polygamy. Then Joseph Smith comes out with Doctrine of Covenants section 132, with 101 in 1835, that that explicitly condemns polygamy, denies that it's being practiced, and he condemns it.

>> In as much as this church of Christ has been condemned with the crime, has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man shall have one wife and one woman, but one husband. That is in our original Doctrine and Covenants and the next version too.

>> And it stays there until like 1876 or something. Yeah. So I mean, that's important.

>> Yeah. You would think is that, sorry, John. Did you remember seeing that in the Saints book? I can't remember. Is that in the Gospel Topics essays? It seems to have...

>> You're saying they left that out?

>> Yeah, it's not in there. Okay. That is part of the part that our original Doctrine and Covenants literally called polygamy a crime. Nowhere to be found. So the church, you're saying, in your view, the church is hiding...

>> The historians...

>> Church historians are hiding...

>> The fact that that the Doctrine of Covenants condemned polygamy for a good 50 years.

>> Yes. And they will say, "We're not hiding it. It's right here." It's like, how is anyone going to find that when you've given them the Saints book that omits it completely? It's so aggravating. So continue.

>> Okay. So, yeah, scripturally, other than someone who may want, and by the way, in the Old Testament, it, it's, a lot of Mormons like to say, "Well, well, you know, prophets practiced." Please give me the Old Testament. Abraham.

>> My best understanding of the Old Testament, after having talked to people who really dug into this, is God's never really saying, "Hey, prophets, please practice polygamy," or "I sanction polygamy." It's more, it seems to be more just what, something that's a common practice at the time, and God just happens to call a few prophets who happen to be practicing it and doesn't like forbid them from being prophets because they're practicing it. Is that fair to say?

>> Okay, that's, that's probably fair. Here's something even better. Abraham, it wasn't Abraham. It was Abram and Sarai before their conversion, that are promised that, yeah, that they're, they're promised seed. You know, God's calling him to this, and Sarai finds herself barren, and she says, "Take my handmaid, you read that God never commanded it. I hadn't realized that. I thought he commanded it. You read it carefully, he didn't. Sarai says, 'Take my handmaid and go impregnate her, and we'll have children by her.'" And how would that handmaid feel about that? I mean, I get, of course, I've never thought about that. Like, what a horrible thing. How is that not, you know, sex trafficking? It's awful. So Abram does this. And how did that work out for him, John? It was a lovely, happy family, right? It was like the most miserable family you can imagine. And I can't think of a way for God to say, "Don't do that again," and they don't. The thing is, they don't do it ever again. Their names are changed subsequently to Abraham and Sarah, and they never return to that practice again. And they wait and wait and wait until in their old age, they have Isaac. What a beautiful story. It's a beautiful story. And beyond that, here's what I thought was the most important part of this story. People have said, "That's ridiculous. God's not going to call a prophet who did something that bad." Okay, then you don't understand the atonement of Jesus Christ. Yes, he would. If he takes a man who's practically perfect and shows that he can be this great guy, what's the lesson? If he takes someone who has, whose sins might be scarlet, and washes them clean and makes him the father of nations, that's a message, right? No one can do anything to be out of God's reach. You could be forgiven for anything. And they did. They turned to him with their whole hearts, and he was made father of nations and this great patriarch. That's the message of that story. It's fantastic.

>> All right. I love it. I love it. You're making a a strong case for your position. Um, and that's what I want because this is part of your story. So you're basically sharing how your thoughts evolved over time.

>> Yes.

>> Which is important.

>> Yes.

>> So all right. So...

>> Okay. So I see Rob's video. I'm done.

>> Hallelujah.

>> Oh, wait, wait, wait. Sorry. A little bit more about Mormon history. Um, so, so, but, but you would agree that Jacob, who becomes Israel, has multiple wives, and so do, and...

>> Solomon.

>> And Jacob, how did he get his wives? He was tricked by his father-in-law, right? He loves Rachel, and the story. And that's a weird story, no doubt about it. Like, he thinks he's going to sleep with Rachel, and in the morning, it's Leah. It's, it's a hard to understand story. I absolutely admit that. But nowhere again, nowhere in there did God command him to do that. Not at all. And then they're having baby wars. It's so sad. And Leah, oh my gosh, that story is so terrible. Cuz he wanted to marry Rachel. His father-in-law tricks him into marrying Leah first, and then, and then Rachel. And Leah, the whole time, is like, "Well, now I've borne him a child. Maybe now he'll love me." And it is a heart-crusher. It's so sad. So no, again, just misery in that family completely after polygamy enters the scene. So it's horrible. Um, okay. So that's the story there. And then you have...

>> But it's, but it is fair to say that God ends up calling prophets in the Old Testament that at some point in their lives were practicing either polygamy or concubines or whatever. Okay. So, okay, going back to early Mormon church history, then, um, the historians, let's say the, the historical consensus would be that even though the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine of Covenants condemned polygamy, the historians would say that from 1840 to 1844, Joseph began, uh, the practice of polygamy in earnest, secretly first, in in conjunction with John Bennett, an early Nauvoo mayor and an early member of the First Presidency or co-president of the church, and that that Joseph did this in secret, that he didn't tell Emma, that he denied it whenever he was asked about it. Um, that John C. Bennett, it got out as a scandal. So Joseph kicked out John C. Bennett, said, "Hey, that's spiritual wifery, I don't condone that," but still continued to privately practice polygamy, but deny it publicly and to Emma. And then, as we've already said, at some point, Emma found out, got angry. Joseph receives DNC 132, uh, to try and, um, beat Emma back into submission on Hyrum Smith's recommendation. Uh, the, the historical narrative is that Emma was okay with polygamy for a brief amount of time, and then wasn't again, and that ultimately Joseph was killed because William Law, his counselor in the First Presidency, exposed Joseph's polygamy through the Nauvoo Expositor, and that's Joseph had the Nauvoo Expositor destroyed, which then landed him in Carthage jail for the destruction of property and, and the violation of freedom of press, which then led to his ultimate martyrdom. So that's, but that still, the LDS church didn't officially claim that that polygamy was an official practice until the mid-1850s, long after Brigham Young brought the Saints west, and then came the narrative of the reorganized church, Emma's eventual church, um, maintaining the position for 100 plus years that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy. So that led the Brighamite Utah Mormon Church to try and prove to distinguish itself from the RLDS claims, to try and prove that the LDS church did, in fact, that Joseph Smith did, in fact, practice polygamy, which led to Joseph to Brigham Young and others, uh, getting alleged plural wives of Joseph Smith to sign sworn affidavits testifying that they were, in fact, Joseph's wives. So there was this battle between the LDS church in Utah affirming Joseph Smith's polygamy and the RLDS church denying Joseph Smith's polygamy. And this, this lasted long into the 20th century.

>> Um...

>> So, and a little correction, the bulk of the affidavits were collected in 1869. So well before what you're talking about, the Temple Lot case. So, what you're mostly referring to is a, there was a dispute over who owned, um, who owned the land on this Temple Lot, and that was in 1892, around there. But well before that, [clears throat] in 1867 or so, Joseph Smith's sons, a couple of them had come to Utah. They were traveling all over the country on a mission. And when they came to Utah, their message, part of their message was, "Our father never practiced polygamy and never taught it. You know, this was not from him." And so what's interesting is that Joseph F. Smith, who was an apostle at the time, said, "Let's just gather up the evidence that Joseph was and put this thing to rest because a lot of members were leaving. When they heard the sons preaching this, it rang true with them, and they started to leave the church. Brigham was very upset to be leaving, losing these people. So Joseph F. Smith, let's just gather up the evidence and put it to rest." And he says he couldn't find any. He couldn't find any evidence for it. So at that point, he said, "Well, I still know he did it. So let's, uh," he would write out affidavits in his own writing, and he would say, "I, blank, on the blank day of blank, was married or sealed to Joseph Smith." And he would have these old women sign these. So that, that's the bulk. He has a, a celestial marriage affidavit book, two of them.

>> What's...

>> And so there's dozens in there, right? Well, I'm thinking about this, and I have not, I'm always terrible at telling this part of the story because I haven't really internalized it like I should. But on the one hand, if Joseph F. Smith wanted to prove that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, he could just rely on the Nauvoo Expositor. The reason why he couldn't do that is because William Law was an apostate. And the Nauvoo Expositor is, is probably what led to Joseph Smith being killed. So he couldn't rely on it from his perspective.

>> Professor. Right. So...

>> Have you thought about that? Why he didn't, why Joseph F. Smith didn't just say, "Not the Expositor"?

>> I think it's more than that because we, we attribute more to the Expositor than is really warranted because there's only a tiny bit of that that referred to the polygamy revelation supposedly. And here's the deal. Austin Cowles is the only one that came out publicly at the time of the Expositor to to say Joseph presented this at our high council meeting. It's just Austin and Cowles. William Law wasn't on the council, and his wife wasn't on the council. So we have those three affidavits in the Expositor. Okay. Um, people like to say Jacob Hansen and other apologists like to say, "Lots of me, lots of people on that council said that Joseph did this." That's not quite true. At the time, we only have Austin Cowles, and he waited 10 months. So supposedly this revelation about polygamy was read to the whole high council by Hyrum Smith. Okay. And then 10 months later, Austin Cowles decides to put it in this newspaper and say how terrible it was. Where, what was he doing for 10 months? Why didn't he say something right when it happened? That would be a question. How about, where were the other high councilmen talking about this? Didn't, didn't it freak out any of the rest of them? But not a peep from them until 1869. And it's none of the high councilmen said anything for decades after Joseph's death. Why? Why would that be? So, I do not think that happened. I, it doesn't jive with anything else. We don't have one diary entry from one supposed plural wife during Joseph's lifetime. Not one woman wrote in her journal, "I was married to the prophet today," or, "Boy, is this hard keeping this secret from everybody," or anything.

>> And I think that's, I think that's important to note.

>> So important.

>> But I also think it's, it could also be very obvious. There's lots of crimes that have been committed where there weren't journal entries for the crimes because clearly, I, it's very reasonable to think that the woman would have been told, "Keep this super secret."

>> Sure. That is the, that's that's what they say. The reason we, as if there's journal police that would even look into your journal. It's that secret, right? On the other hand, John, we've got Hyrum just telling the whole high council about it. Do those match? Like, those don't match at all. We've got Hyrum supposedly giving William Law the revelation to take home and show his wife. Does that match with, "I can't even breathe a word of this in my journal"? They don't match. They don't match at all. Okay.

>> It's, it's preposterous, right? And, and I'm also, I'll just say Dan Vogle is in the chat. Dan Vogle has very strong views about this. If any of you want to actually go watch the chat replay, I, I love the conversation, which is part of what I love about what Michelle and Cheryl are doing. They're wanting to have a conversation with the documents. And I know there are strong passions around this. Dan's got, uh, strong opinions as well. If any, the purpose of today is not to adjudicate the history, but I am glad you are able to share your...

>> Your position on the history.

>> Explain that this is not my feelings. I keep getting told, Casey Griffith, other people. I show them these documents, and he still persists in saying it's based on our feelings because we just hate polygamy. I was like, I made this into a book. There are 80 plus references.

>> You have a book?

>> What's your book?

>> It's right here. Wait, show it. Show it on camera.

>> Read, read what it's called.

>> It is called, "Woe Unto You Scribes: The Hidden History of Polygamy." So, what happened was I compiled, okay.

>> Okay.

>> Let, we'll come back to Dan Vogle in just a second. Um, I saw Rob Fatheringham's stuff. I saw Michelle's stuff. I saw other people's stuff. And they would have these amazing nuggets that were so important, like the 1835 edition of the Doctrine of Covenants. Kind of important that we should know that we have Joseph condemning it. Every time. Kind of important. We have Hyrum, who was supposedly tearfully converted to this in 1842 or 1843 by Brigham Young. We have him just weeks before his death in 1844 saying anyone teaching this should have his nose rung. This does not match. These are really important. And I thought these need to be compiled into one place. So I compiled these all together, all these documents, and put them into a video so that it's, and it's not my opinion. I tried really hard to keep my opinion out. Try not to connect dots for people. Just show the documents.

>> Dan Vogle is actually saying in the chat, he likes your video.

>> I appreciate that, Dan, so much. Um, we, there was a part where...

>> That's a huge endorsement, by the way.

>> I know it is. And I like that, really, you surprised me. That's awesome. Seriously, Dan, thank you so much. Um, [clears throat]

>> I appreciate that. He and I see the William Clayton entry differently, and that's okay. But, um, so I thought, you know, there's not a chance in heck that the brethren are going to watch a video from some rando. So I turned it into a book because I thought there's at least a tiny chance that they might read a book from some rando. So I turned it into a book and sent it to each of the apostles, um, just explaining like, here's information that is usually omitted from the history by the historians that you've hired. So I sent it to them, and of course, heard nothing back. There was a visiting general authority in my ward earlier this year, and I had an amazingly miraculous opportunity to put it in his hand as well. So I outed myself, but anyway, it's, I'm very open about this. I want to, I love this part of the story.

>> Yeah. My point is that I've gone through all the quote proper channels and have heard absolutely zero back.

>> Of course. Of course.

>> Okay.

>> So, so I'm going to come back to this part of the story, but I'm glad you got to say it, and I'm okay if you say it twice. In fact, I want you to say it twice. But the only point I'm going to make for the never-Mormons and for the newly, for the Mormons who are new to this conversation, is that for like a century, the RLDS church, or the Community of Christ now, was saying that Joseph never practiced polygamy, whereas the LDS church, before the Manifesto, was vehemently fighting to argue that the, that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy. Then after the Manifesto and the multiple Manifestos, and eventually by the 1930s, the church wanted no association with polygamy at all. And so not only did it stop really trying to assert or affirm Joseph Smith's polygamy, allegedly, it just didn't want polygamy talked about.

>> You are so right. Do you know [laughter] are you aware that the, do you remember the series "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church" Sunday school manuals?

>> Do you know that the Brigham one, the Brigham Young manual does not mention his polygamy?

>> Yeah. In fact, they edited it where it said "wives," where they changed it to say "wife," as I understand it, to obscure the reality that Brigham Young was a polygamist.

>> It's, I couldn't, I could not believe that. I had to check for myself. It was ridiculous. Brigham Brigham's polygamy is not mentioned.

>> But weirdly, it's not, it's not because they want people who are curious to not know about polygamy. It's because they're embarrassed about polygamy and they just want people to forget about it.

>> You know, isn't that interesting? This is like the one doctrine that we teach that is morally repugnant, right? It's not just like, "Oh, darn, can't drink," or, you know, this kind of thing, or, "Oh, I have to pay 10%." This is the only doctrine that offends your sense of morality. I think that is so important. You know, Alma teaches how to know a good seed from a bad seed. But unfortunately, we almost always just talk about the good seed. We go plant the seed, and it'll bear fruit, and it'll be delicious and enlightening. You got to be careful. Look at closely what he says because he says sometimes you have a seed that's not delicious and it's not enlightening, and you should cast it away. And there's not one person in a hundred that thinks that polygamy is delicious or enlightening.

>> No, for sure not.

>> Do you know Brian Hales even said polygamy is very unlike every other doctrine because the more you study polygamy, the more confusing it is. [laughter] I was like, should that maybe be a hint for us?

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> Okay. So the, so I was raised weirdly. My grandmother, my maternal grandmother, Karma Benson Parkinson, was the daughter of a third of four wives. And I knew her. So like, my living family lived in a polygamous household.

>> Okay?

>> You know, and, and I knew her and I talked to her. So, however, up until my early 30s, if you had asked me, "Did Joseph Smith practice polygamy?" I was like, "I all I know is that Brigham did." Like, that's...

>> That's how...

>> Yep.

>> Someone with a grandmother who practiced polygamy, that's as much as I knew. So all the Fawn Brody stuff, all the stuff in "No Man Knows My History," all the claims about recent claims, relatively recent claims about Joseph Smith's polygamy, I had no knowledge of up through my early 30s. And I only say that because I think that would have been most Mormons, Latter-day Saints' perspective, if they're raised in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s, is they would have been like, "I guess there was polygamy at some point. Yeah, Brigham did it, but other than that, I don't know anything else." Is that fair?

>> 100% fair. [laughter] A few months ago, you know, I'm like, I say, I'm very open with this. I'm not in anyone's face, but I'm very open about it. I never lower my voice or talk conspiratorially about it. I'm very open because I think it's the best news ever. But one lady that I talked to, she said, "Well, didn't that start in Utah for the trek widows to take care of the like, people still think that..."

>> Total misinformation.

>> Total misinformation. John Widtsoe, Apostle John A. Widtsoe debunked that in the 1940s. He said there were not an, there was not an abundance of women, you know, a surplus, he called it, of women in the church or in Utah, either one. And that is not why we did polygamy. So he, he put that to rest ages ago based on census records and church records. So it's not a thing.

>> Yeah. And so, yeah, that, that's the other thing is what I did know is that the church's justifications for polygamy in the 60s through the 90s was that there were way more women than men, that men were being killed off, and so they needed men, that women could get the surplus women could get married to. And that God wanted lots of righteous babies.

>> Right. All these reasons.

>> Those are wrong. Why? Those two reasons are wrong. There were more, yeah, men than women, or more women than men?

>> There were slightly more men, but, um, it was essentially even.

>> And did polygamous wives have more than more babies?

>> No. Like, yes, the men would obviously because they're married to multiple women, but per woman, no. There is, polygamy does not produce more children per woman,

>> Which would then contradict the whole purpose in the Book of Mormon.

>> Yeah. That if you believe the Jacob exception, right? Okay. And you know, and the doctrine, I mean, 132, which, um, I believe was absolutely tampered with. You know, the, the rationale is gone to raise up seed. And then you have Joseph having, I'm sorry, John, how many kids did he have with all his polygamous wives? Can you remind me?

>> Joseph Smith.

>> Yeah.

>> None that we know.

>> Yeah. I think it's zero, last time I checked. [laughter] Zero. Like, what the heck?

>> You're spicy. You're spicy. I love it.

>> It is really aggravating because it's not gray to me. And again, I don't, I don't sound like it right now, but I really don't tell people, "This is what you must believe." I just say, "Look at these documents." And to me, they just speak for themselves. It's like, all these, we had many people, um, claiming to be offspring of Joseph Smith, and DNA testing says nope. So there's the science for you, you know.

>> All right. So, so most of us were raised, [clears throat] with just polygamy probably being the largest elephant in the room in Mormonism. It was never discussed. The average non-Mormon who studied Mormonism probably knew more about polygamy in the LDS church than the average faithful, pioneer, multigenerational Mormon. Is that fair?

>> That could be.

>> We just didn't talk about it, right?

>> And we were discouraged from studying it. Sure. So...

>> It's a horrible stumbling block for people to come into the church. It's a huge reason for people to leave the church. I mean, how many people on your show have been like, "Well, the first thing was that I found out Joseph Smith slept with teenagers and married other men's wives," you know, and they go, "That's not true." And then they run to the Gospel Topics essays, which said, "Yes, he slept with teenagers and married other men's wives, but it was because God wanted him to." You know, that's not cool. Well, for, and for me, and you could argue in the 80s and 90s, I could have read stuff. The only place, if I'm going back into that time period, the only possible way I could have realistically learned about the source documents for polygamy would have been either through the Tanners, which they were labeled as apostates. They did plenty of documentation, but I was taught to stay away from the Tanners, or Fawn Brody's book, "No Man Knows My History," where again, we were taught she was the biggest apostate ever. Um, other than that, I don't think there really was much I could have reasonably had access to other than like Dialogue or Sunstone, and, and that stuff again was [clears throat] too academic for the average Mormon, for the average person to ever really get into.

>> Absolutely. So, it's very obscure, and, and it always has been, and, you know, you had to go in the archives and look at these things. They weren't available. There was no internet. And now, here's the crazy part, John.

>> Is the, the Joseph Smith Papers project, if anyone doesn't know about that, that was, you know, started years ago. They worked on it for like 10 years. And...

>> I'd say like 2004, 2005ish, maybe.

>> Maybe a little later than that. But, but, um, I, I had in my head 2014, but I may be wrong. But, um, all I know is they've scanned all these original documents, just thousands of them, and they're now available to your average lay member. You don't have to...

>> 2001, actually.

>> Oh, for real? I'm so off. Okay, so the 10 years must be 2004 to 2014. Okay, so ish. So anyway, these are all available to us now. Uh, this is what has changed. If we were balking at polygamy right now because of our feelings about it, we would have done it 30 years ago. You know, I would have done it a long, long time ago. That's not what changed. What changed is the documentation showing all these things that we didn't know before. And so this is the crazy part. The church helped fund the Joseph Smith Papers project. Larry H. Miller funded a ton of it. That's right. But the church helped as well.

>> That's right.

>> And their stated reason for funding it was to be more transparent with their history. Okay. It is the bulk of my work. So I'm taking...

>> What they said they wanted to be transparent about, and I'm highlighting it in a movie and a book, and they go, "Get out."

>> Right. Right. Right.

>> This is mind-boggling. Mind-boggling. Do you remember the old movie that the church did in the 80s called "How Rare a Possession" about the Book of Mormon? Really well done, really well produced. I loved it. But one of the stories in there was about Vincenzo de Franchesca. He was this Italian, yeah, Italian pastor. Finds a Book of Mormon. Doesn't have a cover on it. Doesn't know what church it belongs to. He starts preaching out of it because he reads it. He realizes it's lovely. It's true. He loves it. So he starts preaching out of that, and his colleagues are like, "You are disrupting the brotherhood." You know, they're like, "Don't preach out of that. You must burn the book." And I'm like, "I'll be darn. I am Vincenzo now." You know, [laughter] and my church has stepped into the role of, "You must burn the book."

>> No, for sure.

>> Blowing my mind.

>> I love it. Okay. And we're almost done with the history. So, we're all raised either with complete ignorance about early polygamy or miseducation, like propaganda, deception around it, right? Okay. And people are reminding me that I could have read "Mormon Enigma," um, which was about Emma. But again, I'd been taught that Emma was evil growing up as a Mormon, right? Weren't you? Weren't you?

>> Oh, yeah.

>> So I wouldn't want to read a book about Emma as a faithful Mormon [laughter] because I was taught she was evil. Weren't you?

>> She's apostate. It's terri...

>> Because Brigham hated her because she didn't follow Brigham.

>> Absolutely. She knew, and she knew he was doing this. She knew they were practicing this. She, I can't remember how she referred to it, but it's bad. And she wasn't going to follow them. She, the stories that we tell about Emma, this is one of my main motivations. This is one of my main motivations. We paint her as a psycho, right? Like you said, "Oh, she, she just wouldn't get on board here. This angel came, you know, this nameless angel has come and told Joseph he must practice polygamy, and she won't get on board." So she's just a thorn in his side, making his life miserable while he's trying to keep this commandment. And then finally, she decides, "Okay, I'll dip my toe into the polygamy waters by doing what? Giving him two sisters at one time because that's definitely how you try out polygamy, maybe." And then by the end of that night, after they were married, she's already kicked the sisters out of the house. These are all baloney. These all these stories came decades after Joseph's death. They didn't happen. Emma, the first time she heard, uh, about the doctrine of polygamy officially was in 19, in 1853, when Orson Pratt published in the Seer.

>> In your opinion, Ben, been your reading of the documents?

>> According to Emma, right?

>> According to Emma. So not my opinion, but according to Emma, we will say yes.

>> And, um...

>> So why disbelieve her? Her testimony is consistent throughout her whole life and repeated. Other testimonies are all over the place.

>> In the timeline after Emma remarries and starts the RLDS church, she's interviewed.

>> She didn't start it. That's another misconception. Helps it grow. It had been, thank you. Yeah. It had been started years before, and the leaders of that church came to Joseph III and really wanted him to join it, and he said, "Beat it. I don't want anything to do with any other religion right now." And so it took him some years to, to decide to come join, and he felt inspired at that point. He and his mother joined.

>> But when she was interviewed later in her life, she said, "Joseph never practiced."

>> Never. And that's important. Okay. It is important.

>> Okay. So going back, I was going to say the authors of "Mormon Enigma" were not excommunicated, but they were disciplined and told they couldn't talk publicly. So again, the church has done everything they possibly could in the 20th century to just silence anyone who wanted to talk about polygamy. I think, I think Michael Quinn, the main reason D. Michael Quinn was excommunicated was because he was publishing about post-Manifesto polygamy, and the church hated that. So like the, is it, you probably agree that the church has, the, the modern LDS church has been silencing people who wanted to talk openly about this for most of the 20th century and for some of the early 21st century, unless they were apologists like, uh, like Brian Hales. Fair?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. All right. So, anyway, back to modern stuff. So, polygamy, there's really no way to learn about it unless you read apostates like the Tanners or, uh, the "Mormon Enigma" people, or...

>> Until the internet. And, uh, I guess Todd Compton published in "Sacred Loneliness" right around the time I started Mormon Stories. So, you know, he was obviously an early source for me. Um, and then, you know, and so that, that that takes us up to the early, you know, 2000s, where the internet started making this information available. So at that point, the church was put in this position of not being able to continually silence people or deny or miseducate because the internet starts holding the LDS church accountable for silencing or misrepresenting things. And as you say, the Joseph Smith Papers project starts again publishing documents that, uh, people who wanted to understand the early history could use to say, "Hey, look, the church is now even publishing documents that substantiate this or that part of the official record." Are we, are we good on that?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. So that gets us to then, you know, Mormon Stories, Mormon Think, CES Letter, that that starts blasting historical documents around early church polygamy, um, to the world, which leads the church to do the Gospel Topics essays in 2014ish, which then creates a problem. So take us, take us from there, uh, you know, how that leads to you, right?

>> The, besides, I mean, that's what do you mean?

>> Because in 2022...

>> That's when you finally, and then again, this is...

>> 23. Yeah. I don't remember.

>> This is like eight, this is like 10 years after the church starts to, I mean, there was like a New York Times article that basically said around 2013, 2014, acknowledge the Joseph of Polygamist. [laughter] I mean, isn't that mind-blowing that that comes out?

>> Oh, I get, I still, you know, 97% of the comments I get on my YouTube videos are positive. You know, "Thank you so much," and "My sister struggled with this, and now now it's gone, she's great." But once in a while, I'll get someone that pops on there and says, "Don't you know that your own church even admits that Joseph was a polygamist?" You know, and I'm like, "Admits? Like they claim he was a polygamist. I wouldn't say they admit it. They claim he was." And so, um, yeah, that's, it's not correct. I mean, as far as the documentation goes, there, there's at least the very mildest way I can say it is there is a very strong case that Joseph was telling the truth and only had one wife. So it literally, the end of my movie, the end of my book says, "Isn't it time to consider that our founding prophet may have been telling the truth all along?" Now, that's as mild as you could say it. So I just don't think that's in your face. It's all documentation. It's just gathered into one place. It's stuff that they said they wanted to be transparent about in the first place. So it's very, very surreal to be like, "What did you..." I actually just posted a meme the other day, and it shows those, um, sort of anti-Mormon protesters that go to Temple Square, and they hold up their placards for their website that says, "josephlied.com," I think is what it's called. And I juxtapose that with the picture of me next to my van fitted out with, um, the bumper stickers that I have and my t-shirt that says "Joseph ToldTheTruth.org," and I put over the anti-Mormon one, "Unacceptable," and I put over mine, "Also Unacceptable." So it's, this is just, I live in the upside down. Yes. I don't know what to...

>> So I think we covered the history fine, and the reason why it ties into you. I'll just summarize there. I think everyone has to agree that that the church has, that that the official LDS church has been either supporting Joseph Smith's polygamy post-1853 or whatever, or hiding it and punishing people for talking about it, or misinforming people about it, up until the emergence of the internet, where it was forced to acknowledge it. So you, seven, eight years after the church finally acknowledges it, it still takes you five to seven years to even kind of have all this come on your radar. And in that sense, you and many church members are victims because the church could have just not punished people for talking openly about this and openly taught what it believed to be true, or what it had on the historical record. It could have done that from the beginning, but it didn't. Which then leaves people like you and others, Michelle, and what's the Fatheringham guy's name, to to try and make sense of all this. And in that sense, the church, I think, has set people up for this confusion. Is that fair?

>> Yeah, for sure. And the, you know, it's historical records. We should be able to examine them. No matter if we're a credentialed historian or a housewife, we should be allowed to examine the historical record. There's a historian in England that I talk to once in a while, email him, and he's appalled that anyone would be disciplined for for interpreting the historical record differently. It, and actually, there are, there are historians here as well that have privately said that they can't believe that the church is, you know, excommunicating or disciplining people or threatening them with excommunication for interpreting the historical record as they wish. Um, it's, it's very surreal, and I don't, I don't really understand it. I know people keep saying to me, "Well, they have to have Joseph be a polygamist, or else what about the line of authority?" Okay. And so that's a huge thing, I guess, and I, I can't get there. Okay.

>> Well, let me, let's treat, let me just do this. I want to do this a tiny bit systematically. So, okay.

>> So the, obviously, um, obviously the historical consensus among reputable academic historians. You already, you're making faces.

>> Yeah. Reputable. But [laughter] you know, keep going.

>> I'll say, you know, John Turner, accredited. Okay.

>> The John Turner who's never been Mormon.

>> I talked to him. I see, I talked to these guys. I talked to them one-on-one. I've talked to John Turner. I've talked to Casey Griffith. I've talked to Steven Smoot. I've talked to, uh, Jared Halverson. Um, John, by the way, I've talked to these people one-on-one because I just want to put the book in their hand because over and over and over, you would be shocked, John, how many people, historians tell me, "Well, I haven't dug into the polygamy documents myself, but I trust my colleagues." And then another one will say, "Well, I haven't looked into Nauvoo polygamy specifically, but I trust my colleagues." They're all trusting each other. And by each other, I think I mean Brian Hales. I mean, really.

>> Well, I want, this is incredible.

>> That's okay that you make that argument, but...

>> False traditions get passed on.

>> No, I want you to respond. But I just want to establish this for people that aren't in...

>> In the weeds like you are in the details.

>> You know, whether it's, let's just say, for better or worse.

>> Yeah.

>> The people who are acknowledged to be credible historians, right, around Mormon history. So, we'll say Fawn Brody, Dan Vogel, um, you know, D. Michael Quinn, Richard Bushman, uh, even George Smith, Brian Hales, uh, John Turner, um, you, you could just go down the list. Almost Ben Park, like, for better, for worse, those are the most reputable, credible, well-published early Mormon historians. And all of them have read the documents and have come to the conclusion that Joseph Smith indeed practiced polygamy. I'm going to give you a chance to...

>> They haven't necessarily read the documents, but they've read what their colleagues have said about the documents.

>> Yes. But that's their conclusion. That's their conclusion.

>> Sure.

>> Um, and in 2025, LDS church historians, all those Joseph Smith Papers Project dudes, and they're mostly dudes. Um, and I should add Signature Books and and and George Smith and all the good people who have done work there, um, to that former list. But the church agrees now.

With these apostate or secular historians, they all kind of agree, yes, that in their view and their reading of the documents or in their trusting of others who read the documents that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Yes. So that's the overwhelming consensus. Now, I want to hear your take on how you started saying, "Wait a minute. I I'm not sure I agree." So, I know you watched Fotheringham's video, but tell us your journey for arriving at a different conclusion.

Okay. From from the start, you know what I mean? Like, that really was the start, you know, is that because I had never heard it even proposed before. Was like, what? So, what questions did he raise for you that then made you start digging?

Oh, well, I didn't know that was in our original Doctrine and Covenants that polygamy was a crime. That's kind of helpful information that the church hid that the historians don't say, right? It's not you don't get that in the *Saints* book. You don't get it. So, a lot of people talk about the happiness letter. You know, that's one that's brought up sometimes where there's this tone in it. It doesn't overtly talk about polygamy, but I think we all agree that it's hinting at polygamy and saying, you know, sometimes something that looks wrong is actually right.

And this is allegedly from Joseph Smith to Nancy Rigdon, Sidney Rigdon's daughter, trying to manipulate her into practicing, being. And you, when you read that letter, what? I mean, that's just generally accepted as that's what that was.

But you felt it was what the letter? Nancy said it wasn't from Joseph. She says it's not his writing and not from him. And her father publicly publishes in the newspaper, "Please don't say this. This she says it's not from him, it's from someone else." So that's kind of important too. What another thing that's important in the happiness letter specifically is there's this allusion that if you don't take extra wives, it's like burying your talent so that you'll end up with none, right? And that's preposterous. But you know who else openly said that? Brigham Young in Utah. We have him actually teaching that it's like the parable of the talents. If you don't take extra wives, you're going to lose the one that you have. And he taught that openly. It matches perfectly with the happiness letter. Why are we attributing it to Joseph?

But you find it to be a repulsive document. Correct. If it was, if it would have been used by someone to manipulate, it's terrible. Absolutely.

So, what else was disturbing or?

Oh my gosh. Um, the one, a huge one is the Whitney letter. So, this is Joseph. He's in hiding. There's a warrant out for his arrest and extradition. They're trying to extradite him back to Missouri, where they will certainly kill him. So, he's in hiding. And while he's in hiding, he's he's he's changed his location because uh they found out where there's a rumor that they found out where he was hiding. So, he changed location. And at that point, he writes to the Whitney family and says, "Dear brother and sister Whitney, etc." That is how he addresses it. So, Sarah and Whitney, their daughter, is not mentioned by name in it. But he says, "I'm now in hiding. I'm over at Greer's house. Please come visit me. I'm very lonely. Come over here." And the historians almost universally chalk that up to him asking the parents for a booty call. "Please bring your daughter over because I'm lonely and I just married her a couple months ago. Please bring her over so we can, you know, have a tryst." It's like, are you kidding me? What they leave out, and it says, "Burn this letter," and it says, "If Emma comes, don't come." Okay? And I have literally heard historians misquote it and say, "Please don't tell Emma about this and burn the letter." It doesn't say that at all. It says, "If Emma is coming, don't come." And the reason for that is that the sheriff, and this is all on record, this is in my book, this is in my movie, the sheriff was watching Emma closely to follow her to find out where Joseph's hiding. So, if she's if she's visiting, there's a very good chance that the sheriff's watching or has his eye on a place that she's visited or whatever. So, we don't want a lot of people visiting at once and making a big deal out of his hiding place. We're trying to keep it covert. Come one at a time. That kind of thing. And when he says, "Please burn this letter." It has his location in the letter. Obviously, burn the letter. It's got his secret location in it, for crying out loud. So, this is. They never say that. When the historians present this letter, like you mentioned George Smith, the historian. Oh my gosh. He picks and chooses out of that letter, and it is horrific. So, when's the last time you heard that he was in hiding and his location was in the letter? They never include that. It's aggravating.

But it, but it does seem impossible that a parent or family would deliver their daughter to a booty call. I just interviewed this week. Well, I'm I'm actually going to say something that you may not expect, but I think you'll be okay with this. This week, I interviewed a woman named CC Hendrickson who was raised LDS. And and we're going to release this story in a couple weeks, but she tells the story of Warren Jeffs calling her as a 16-year-old to marry a man as a second wife. She marries that man, and then within a year or two of marrying that man, he delivers his own 12-year-old daughter personally, goes down to Texas, delivers his 12-year-old daughter to Warren Jeffs as a as a teenage boy bride. Mhm. Not even a teenage, as a 12-year-old child.

That's true. It is disgusting.

People can do that under absolutely strong religious beliefs.

For sure. And it's not. See, that's the thing. You could take all this documentation that I've collected and say, "I still believe Joseph was a polygamist. I still believe he did it." That's totally fine with me. I honestly, I never come at people, "Don't you see it? Don't you never?" I have never done that. It's like, "Please look at this. Just please watch the movie. Please read it through before you make a conclusion." Conclusions.

Please. That's your position.

100% my position. And in my council, I mean, again, I'm all over the place, but my friends that were allowed to come in and testify on my behalf, that is what they said. She doesn't shove this down anyone's throat. She just offers it. Here's some documents. Take a look.

Yeah, no, I love that. And we'll get to that for sure. Okay.

So, that was disturbing, the way that you feel like historians have treated you call it the Whitney letter.

Yeah, they it's known as the Whitney letter.

But that's not, um, uh, who's the Whitney? Clayton. That's not the Clayton.

William Clayton. William.

That's different. Yeah, sorry. That's another one.

So, uh, yeah, thank you. Okay. So, any other things that were big red flags for you making you question Joseph Smith's polygamy in those that early time for you?

No, none of this was the early time. This is all post-video. Like that. I'm telling you, when Rob showed those receipts, it was plenty for me. What he showed was plenty for me. That was enough. That was absolutely enough.

So, the main five receipts he showed were were what?

I don't remember. I really don't. It's been a long time and I've watched it a couple times, but it's been a long time. It, it, it was a done deal. Like, not just, not just that he showed the doc, not just the documents themselves, but the fact that the historians leave them out. That's bigger, right? To me, that's even bigger than the documents themselves. This is a concerted effort to obfuscate this information. Why? Why? So, I don't have an answer of why. And again, I forgive them. I don't have animosity toward Casey Griffiths. You know, I gave him, I put this book in his, and he was very gracious. Casey's one of the church historians. He works at the church history library. He's a BYU professor. So, he splits his time between the CHL and the and BYU. So, he graciously allowed me to come and meet with him. And I thought I was just going to put the book in his hand. He talked to me for an hour and a half. Super great, really good guy for doing that. Um, I showed him the, I explained the affidavit to him that they were in Joseph F. Smith's own hand. He didn't realize that because he said, "You don't, you know, you have to believe the women." I was like, "Well, I, I, it's not that I dismiss those affidavits, but I weigh them more lightly because they're not even in the women's own words." And he said, "Well, you don't know that." And I said, "They're, they're all boilerplate. They're all identical." So, yeah, I do. You know, he was like, "Well, you don't know how affidavits were collected." I was like, "Okay, this is a weird conversation. Like, who would argue this?" And I realized kind of his claws were out, so to speak. So, I kind of said, "Well, you're right, Casey. We don't know how affidavits were collected, you know." So, he calmed down a little bit after that. Like, it doesn't matter because they're still not the women's words. No matter if that's a normal way to collect them or not, they're not the women's words. So, the next thing you know, he goes on another interview after we talk and the person asks, it was Pastor Jeff, and Pastor Jeff asked him about these polygamy deniers or whatever. And he's like, "Well, you know, they take Joseph's denials and then their own feelings and they try to build a case that Joseph wasn't a polygamist." I was like, "So, my feelings are you serious right now?" So, I went to Education Week when he was there presenting, and I was able to talk to him before he went on. And I go, and he goes, "Oh, hey, I know you." I was like, "Yeah, you do." Said, "Why did you tell Pastor Jeff that I based this on my own feelings?" And he says, "Well, aren't your feelings important in this?" And I said, "Yeah, did you think those 80 plus citations at the end of my book were my feelings?" [Laughter] It was like I said, "How would you?" It was, it was crazy. This is what I'm up against. Do you see what I'm saying?

I do. I do. Okay. So, you've already teased this out, but I want to do it in one five to 10 minute swoop.

Yes.

From your book or whatever. Make your, make your five to 10 minute argument for why you've concluded, based on your understanding of the documents, that we should be at least skeptical, if not disbelieve, that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Summarize your main arguments, if you're willing.

Sure. Um, I think I've already made many, right? But, but no, but in one consolidated five to 10 minute argument.

And you can even look at the table.

Pretty good to sum it up in two hours, John, but seriously. Um, the, the whole story that Joseph, uh, got this revelation, 13, what we now know as 132. All right. It hinges on William Clayton, who was supposedly his scribe at the time, which is that's even debated. Um, one man, James Whitehead, said that William Clayton had been let go, that he was a financial clerk and he'd been let go. But that aside, the story is that William Clayton, um, was in his office and here came Joseph and Hyrum, uh, talking about how Emma just won't get on board with polygamy. And Hyrum says, "Well, just write down the revelation, Joseph, and then I'll take it to Emma and show her and she'll, she'll get on board, you know, because who wouldn't be threatened to be destroyed?" It's a silly story, but supposedly Joseph says, "Well, okay." And Hyrum says, "Use the German thumb, thumb, and get and write down the revelation right now." And the German thumb had supposedly already been taken away back then. That's another hole in that story. So, Joseph says, "Well, I have it memorized, so I don't even need the German thumb." And proceeds to dictate a 10-page revelation by heart to William Clayton, who writes it down. And then Hyrum takes it to Emma and, oh dear, it's she didn't like it. You know who knew? So, the thing is, here's a real key to this. In his 1843 journal entry, William Clayton says, on Joseph's behalf, "Received a revelation today concerning Moses and Abraham and their polygamy." Okay, in a nutshell. And it says Joseph and Hyrum took it to Emma, who said she did not believe a word of it and was very bitter. Okay. So, he's got both Joseph and Hyrum taking this revelation to Emma, who didn't like it. Later, decades later, in his 1874 affidavit, William Clayton tells a totally different story. The one I just said about how Hyrum was begging Joseph to write the revelation and Joseph finally does and Hyrum takes it by himself. And Clayton says he and Joseph both stay in the office together and wait, and Hyrum finally comes back and he's been berated by Emma, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. These don't match at all. They're irreconcilable. And you say, "Well, you know, people remember things wrong." Yeah, they do. So, if anything, you should go with the original that supposedly happened hours after the fact where it's both Joseph and Hyrum going. Well, they don't go with that one. They go with the later one with this whole story about how Emma berated Hyrum and blah, blah, blah. All those details that we get in our current story are from the late one that doesn't match the 1843 one. That's not okay to me. That's huge. Dan Vogel disagreed with me that that was a big deal. You can decide for yourself. I think that's a huge deal.

Okay.

So, that's key.

So, Clayton's not credible. Is that the first?

No.

Okay.

Like, you, you can say he made a mistake. I don't care what it is. You know, nefarious mistake, whatever. Didn't remember. But you, these contradict each other. He's not a credible witness. Eliza R. Snow in 1842, in October, signed a declaration with a bunch of other women saying, "Polygamy is not practiced here in Nauvoo." Okay, that's October of 1842. So, then 27 years later, in 1869, she signs an affidavit that she had been married to Joseph Smith in June of 1842, three months earlier. It's like those, she's contradicted herself. You can decide why. You can decide if she was coerced or remembering wrong or whatever. I don't care about that. What I care about is she said two opposite things that cannot be reconciled.

Is this, no, like, is that in your book?

Absolutely.

Okay. So, okay. So, you know, Dan obviously is giving his opinion in the comments. And I'm just going to say, our position is, go read the docu. You agree. Go read the documents. Make your own conclusion. Dan disagrees, but we're giving Karen her voice here. So, keep going.

Thank you. I appreciate that. And I don't, I do not mind people pushing back. It's fine. But I, I would love it if they would look at the documents first, because this is not happening.

So, William Clayton's not credible. Eliza Snow contradicts herself. So, trust her first. What else?

Well, yeah, I do. I think she was telling the truth in 1842. Um, not, not later.

Joseph denied it.

If you, if you believe Joseph's an honest person, that should be a problem. Emma denied it because you also, if you believe in the restoration, you want to believe that Emma was a person in good faith.

Well, and it's not just choosing who to believe. Her story never changed. So, whereas these other witnesses, there are stories all over the place. It contradicts. Emily Partridge claims that she and her sister were both married to Joseph secretly. Okay. Because Emily wasn't on board. But that was in, um, in March of, uh, I think it was '42. And then three months later, this is when Emma's supposedly deciding, "Okay, I'll, I'll try out this polygamy thing, right? I'll get on board." And who does she pick serendipitously? But Emily and Eliza, right, who just married Joseph secretly a few months before. So, Emma supposedly chooses them for his wife. So, what do the three of them do? They pretend that they haven't been married already and they deceive Emma. That is the story. So, they have a pretend wedding with Emma there and Judge Adams there, and Emily and Eliza Partridge get married to Joseph. Okay. Later in court, this is brought up and the lawyer says, "Well, let's look at Joseph's journal for the day that you said this happened." Oh, I see. Emma was not in town. So, this is not, this did not happen. Nor was the judge that she claims. So, her, so Emily Partridge says, "Well, I might have got the date wrong, but I know I was married to Joseph." Who gets their date wrong where they were married to the prophet of the restoration? It doesn't make any sense. You can believe it. Again, go ahead and believe it if you want, but just don't pretend like we don't have a leg to stand on. We absolutely do. And you, I think you've already said that that D&C 101 in the 1835 version of the Doctrine and Covenants, huge for me, along with the Book of Mormon, pretty much deny it.

And what we now know as D&C 132, that whole polygamy revelation that was not introduced to the Saints until 1852, eight years after Joseph's death. You can read that. I've got it in the book. I've got it in the movie. Brigham Young says, "We're introducing this to you." and or he has, or his counselor Orson Pratt, who says, "I'm surprised to be talking about this in public. We haven't made this a habit of talking about it in public, but I'm going to introduce this doctrine." This is new after Joseph's death. So, these are, these are not small things. They're huge. And to pretend like we're just conspiracy theorists and and all this, it doesn't make any sense, or that we're doing it based on our feelings. If I hear that one more time, I'm going to explode. But it's so ridiculous. It's like, read the documents. They're very, very compelling. And might I add this, when they say you're conspiracy theorists, Brian Hales refers to Joseph's inner polygamy circle. Okay, this is not disputed that there was an inner polygamy circle of secret polygamists in Nauvoo. All the historians acknowledge this. I acknowledge this. But I believe Joseph was fighting against them and trying to root it out. And they believe he was part of it. That's the only place we differ. So, don't bring up the conspiracy theory thing. Everyone believes that there was a conspiracy, that there was a hidden cabal of polygamists.

It's, which one? Yes.

Just who? Yes. And, and Joseph and [clears throat] Hyrum. Again, never changed their story. Always said that they condemned it.

Okay. And then what do you do with William Law and the Nauvoo Expositor?

So, he had already fallen out of favor. None of these guys spoke a word until they had already been excommunicated. Then all of a sudden, "Oh, Joseph, you know, Hyrum read this 10 months ago." Why didn't you say something 10 months ago? If it was so egregious, why don't we have any journal entries from any of the other high councilors saying, "Oh my gosh, this was the craziest thing I've ever heard." Why don't we have any reports of them saying it? Again, the whole story that it was so secret that women couldn't write in their journal, and yet Hyrum's telling the whole high council, no matter if they agree or not, and he's giving it to William Law to take home to show Jane. It's crazy. This doesn't make any sense. And the idea.

So, you're saying it comes too late. If, if William Law believed these things, he shouldn't have waited a year and a half to.

10 months or so, whatever it was. Yeah. It, it, and not that that proves, but you have to put it into the mix. You have to put it in the equation. And not, not just be like, "Obviously, this happened because these three people." And it was only Austin Cows of the three affidavits in the Expositor. It was only Austin Cows that was supposedly at the meeting where Hyrum read it. Uh, William Law's story is that Hyrum handed it to him and said, "Take it home and show your wife." You know, this ultra-secret document. It, it doesn't, it doesn't fly. And what, so with John C. Bennett, who did claim that Joseph Smith was in on the spiritual wifery?

Both he claimed first he claimed he was, and then he claimed he signed an affidavit that Joseph hadn't taught it to him.

So, he's all over the place as well.

But your general view of allegations that Joseph and John C. Bennett were both in on it would be what? Your response to that would be what?

That Joseph wasn't in on it. Not at all.

That John C. Bennett was a liar and a scoundrel.

And he, and he was. And.

He clearly was. Yes, that's the crazy thing. Another one, John, thank you for bringing that up. He came to Nauvoo. He's this charismatic guy. He kind of helped the Saints in a lot of ways. So, they made him the mayor and, like you said, Joseph Smith made him a counselor for a while.

And then it came out that he had left his wife back [clears throat] in wherever it was, Iowa or something. And so, Joseph was hesitant to believe it, but he checked on it and found out it was true. And so, there's this whole thing. It's not debated whether John C. Bennett was a bad guy or not. He's a terrible guy. And yet they prioritize, they're now citing him as a source to tell us that Joseph was a polygamist. It blows my mind. The other crazy one is, you know, the whole Fanny Alger in the barn thing that everybody, you know, knows about. This came from an 1872 letter from William McLellan to Joseph III, Joseph's son. And William McLellan, here's how Brian Hales refers to him in his book. William McLellan, who had been an apostle briefly, and then he tells a story about him. Okay, that's nice creds. He had been an apostle. How about this? He robbed Joseph and Emma's home while Joseph was in prison. That's on record. He was excommunicated twice. Even after being let back in, he was excommunicated again. That might be important. He is on, in the church history of the church, asking the sheriff for permission to flog Joseph while he's in prison.

Who is this?

This is William McLellan.

Okay.

Who tells the story about Fanny in the barn.

Why do you think Oliver was excommunicated?

Oliver.

Yeah.

Talking about Oliver.

Oliver Cowry.

That's out of the blue.

No. No. Fanny Alger is all about.

Okay. Oliver Cowry making the accusation that Joseph.

Right. That's. But, but my point is that the, the story of the barn doesn't come from Oliver. That comes only from William.

I'm sorry, I jumped ahead. So, you're saying the guy who tells the barn story about.

Avowed. Yeah.

About Fanny in the barn and Joseph, he tells that in 1872 and he is an avowed enemy of Joseph.

So, yeah, I'm more worried about Oliver.

Okay, let's talk about Oliver in a second. So, William McLellan, his claim is that here's Emma denying this to everyone that Joseph had any other wives, that he practiced, believing she's condemning it, but William McLellan's story is that she confided in him that Joseph was both an adulterer and a polygamist. That is straight from Brian Hales's article. Okay, we are prioritizing William McLellan, who robbed them, who was excommunicated, and said this, you know, almost three decades after Joseph's death. We're prioritizing that over Emma. It is incredible to me. Okay. Oliver Cowry, he writes a letter. I heard some of the other.

William McLellan is incredible because he became an apostate.

He, it's incredible that we would prioritize him, who was an avowed enemy of Joseph Smith in every way, over Emma.

So, you think he just made that up to smear Joseph?

100%. He made it up. I don't know why. I, I never attribute motive. I just don't. I don't know.

Got it.

But it's pretty. We would not do this with any other historical thing to prioritize someone's enemy's words three decades later over the person who actually was involved in it, Emma Smith herself. We would never. We would never do this in any other case. It's so weird to me that this is so weird. But, um.

Okay. Oliver Cowry.

Yeah. So, I heard someone the other day claim that Oliver's journal, he mentioned, you know, the dirty, nasty, filthy affair. That was not his journal. It was a letter that he wrote to his brother Warren. He wrote the letter in 1838 and he refers to the dirty, nasty, filthy affair between Joseph and Fanny Alger. Okay? He does not give details about what that is. And let's be honest, affair means a piece of business. The, the event, right?

Can have multiple meanings.

It has multiple meanings.

Can be broader than a sexual affair.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

But at any rate, even if he is referring to that, he doesn't give specifics and he never says that he saw anything. And he's writing this two years after Fanny has already married another man and moved away. We don't have anything [clears throat] from Oliver while Fanny is there. I am totally inclined to believe that he has heard rumors that everyone else has heard of Joseph Smith's polygamy. Okay, that this is there absolutely were there absolutely were rumors that Joseph was practicing this. That's the point of the 1835 Doctrine of Covenants saying, "Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of polygamy." So, there's no doubt that there had been rumors swirling. It's just who do you believe? And Oliver's letter to his brother Warren is two years after Fanny's already moved away. We don't have anything concurrent, right? We don't have anything, um, contemporaneous to Fanny being there. So, I believe that Oliver is speaking from rumors that he's heard. He and, and Joseph meet up and they sort of, um, make peace in a way. But, um, the other thing is this is brought up, these accusations from Oliver, like you say, are brought up at the high council. So, he makes these accusations against Joseph and a lot of other things, like seven points or something that he said. So, the high council says in the minutes, it said that Joseph explains, quote, "the girl business." Okay. And it doesn't give any details, but whatever it was, the high council was satisfied with the explanation. So, of course, you could say, "Well, that's because they were in on it or, you know, they were just winking and nodding at his."

The prophet.

Right. That you could say.

Like you.

But.

You believe the prophet?

Uh, no, no, no. I would say no. Like, that's not what I base this on. I don't go, "Joseph had to have told the truth." So, that's why, absolutely not. Here's one thing. Joseph's enemies later who would accuse him of polygamy, they never brought up the Fanny Alger thing. So, if it had teeth, why didn't they use it against him later? That would have been super potent, but they didn't.

So, do you have a theory for why Fanny was sent away?

I don't know. No. Michelle has some. It's people theorize. I, and I theorize all you want, you know. Okay. I don't, I don't [clears throat] know. But it's, it.

Or why Oliver apostatized or was excommunicated. Why?

Yeah, they, they list those. He was definitely at odds with Joseph, but he did come back, as we know. He did come back and he never, you know, he never denied his testimony of the things that had happened. He never said Joseph was a liar. There was no angel, you know, nothing like that. So, the, I, I really try to steer clear of the why. I don't know why.

All my job to prove that.

It's really not. And people are always like, "Well, you have to have an alternate theory." I was like, "I don't though. I can just show that your theory is crazy." You know, it's just full of holes. Let's say crazy is very rude. I'm sorry, but your theory is full of holes and let's point those out and discuss them, you know, and, and again, I don't need people to agree with me. I just need people to understand that we have a leg to stand on with this hypothesis that he did not practice polygamy. It's, it's real strong.

So, for the biggest areas of skepticism around Joseph Smith's alleged polygamy, do you feel like you've covered them? Or are there any really big ones that you haven't covered today that you want to make sure mention?

They are so nice. The other, the only other thing is the last third of my book is, and the movie is, let's look at each of the supposed 35 wives. Okay. That Brian Hales, they're all over the place. Every historian chooses a different number. Why?

Up to 40? I've heard up to 40.

Yeah. Or more. 50. And the reason that there's such discrepancies is because the, the evidence is fragmentary. They'll say, or the evidence is lacking. You know, it's like, yeah, no kidding. It's real lacking. So, why are you making up this huge story around such flimsy evidence? I, I'll never understand it. But I go through each wife that Brian Hales claims, and I picked out from his articles what I thought were his strongest points. And you would not believe that they're his strongest points because some of them are so, so terribly flimsy. My favorite one to cite, but this is, I mean, there's lots that are terrible, is Mary Harren. There's a woman named Mary Heron, and Brian Hales claims that she was one of Joseph's wives. Why? He says there's one source for this one.

And who's the source?

It's a man named Joseph Ellis Johnson. It's Mary's son-in-law. Okay. He is on, he's facing church discipline for having impregnated the wife of Lorenzo Snow. Okay. So, he's knocked up Lorenzo Snow's wife and is facing church discipline for this. And during the conversation, it comes out that Joseph Ellis Johnson is familiar with the first frigging between Joseph and Mary Heron. I mean, do you have words for that? Like, who goes, "That seems like a good piece of evidence. I'll count Mary Haron." Who would do that? I don't understand. There's another one, Lucinda Pendleton, and Brian Hales lists, he literally says, "The evidence for a sealing between Joseph and Lucinda is non-existent." Okay, then why is she on your list? For the love. Why is she on your list? So, I just, his work is not examined. They just see it and they accept it and they don't look at it and scrutinize it. It is time for some QC. Somebody has to take a step back and say, "Are his conclusions valid? Is the evidence that he's using substantial enough to make this case that our prophet was lying?" I mean, this is a big deal. This is, this isn't Brigham. Brigham never claimed to have been visited by angels or seen God or translated anything or anything. It's okay. Joseph Smith claimed all those things. If he's lying about this, why? Maybe he's lying about everything. It's kind of important to figure out if it could be true that he was telling the truth. So, that's, that's what it's all about is just, I think it's important and we should look into the evidence and scrutinize it and see because it doesn't hold up.

Okay. Now, do you feel like you hit the main ones? And I'm not, I'm not in a hurry for you to, I'm not in a hurry for you to conclude. I, I love that you are making a summary of your most important arguments. I think that's really important. Okay.

Okay. I want to address one thing, not, um, in a contentious way, just have you address it. You know, you talked about being upset when people say that your emotions, you know, that that you're emotionally driven. And I want to give you and Michelle and Cheryl and others credit. Y'all know the documents better than 99.999% of anyone in the world. Like, the only people that could even come close to you would be George Smith, Brian Hales, Dan Vogel, probably not Richard Bushman. Honestly, I would guess you guys know the documents better because he had help writing his book and he doesn't even cover this stuff. He leaves out most of this stuff in *Rough Stone Rolling*. But, you know, um, you know, I would say John Turner is pretty good on this stuff. So, I'd put him, Sandra Tanner, Fawn Brodie. But like, there aren't many other people. That's like two hands. You know what I mean? Like, I'd say you and Michelle and others are are definitely in the top 30 people who've ever lived, maybe, or at least top 50 who know these documents as well as you do. So, having acknowledged that, I also think that all of us can be, um, have to deal with confirmation bias or what I call, uh, Jonathan Haidt's rider in the elephant hypothesis, which is that we often times, um, arrive at our decisions emotionally and then arrange the logic or the evidence to justify the position that we arrive at emotionally. And I'm going to just say, we all do it. Anyone who thinks they don't do it, or at least aren't heavily influenced by their emotion, I just think they don't understand reality or the human brain. Now, having said that, that's not me invalidating what you're saying. No.

But I think.

You and Michelle have strong emotional feelings about this, and that has to at least somewhat influence the position you're coming from. And I'll ask the question this way. If Joseph, if you were to learn that that all the evidence was true and that Joseph Smith did do all the things that we'll say Dan Vogel or John Turner claims, would that be a deal breaker for you being able to accept him as God's prophet or not?

Yeah, I would say he, I would say he made a big mistake. I would say that's awful and I would be really confused how God could have used him because I love the Book of Mormon. Like, it helps me every single day. I love it. I can't deny that it's from God. And so that would be confu. I mean, it was confusing. I, this is the thing, John. We, we always believed that he was a polygamist, right? Like, that is, it's not like we have to hypothesize. We know how we would feel because that's what we thought. We thought he was. Do you see what I'm saying? So, if you're, you're saying you're saying it wouldn't be a deal breaker, you could still swallow.

That God used an imperfect man to be his prophet who did things as horrible as, uh, you know, John Turner or Sandra would claim.

You could still swallow that. It would just be confusing. But it wouldn't be a deal breaker. Wouldn't be a deal breaker.

Deal breaker for the.

Not being a prophet. The restoration isn't true. The Book of Mormon has to be a fraud.

Oh, yeah. No, no. I, I, I already, the Book of Mormon is something that I do know is is from God. So, I do know that and that's just, you know.

But your belief in the Book of Mormon being from God would persist if for some reason you were to decide that Joseph Smith actually was a polygamist.

Correct. And I would be just where I was 20 years ago, going, "I, I don't get it. Like, how could?" And, you know what? That's not even fair. That's not even fair because 20 years ago I didn't know the story that he had done all this behind Emma's back. So, now I would be extra confused for sure.

And I'm happy to say that. Yes.

Like 14-year-olds and mother-daughter pairs, sister could possibly be an interest. So, it might be a deal breaker for you.

A deal breaker for him being, like, maybe he was a fallen prophet or something. I'd have to conclude. I don't know. So, I'd have to ask.

But maybe the restoration would still stand. The Book of Mormon would still stand. The Book of Mormon was a follow.

Yeah. The Book of Mormon stands on its own. That's fair. That's fair. No matter, right? And that's interesting because you say, you know, motivated by your feelings. Of course.

We all are. I am, too.

Of course. Of course, they get in there and, and I'm not going to, I mean, absolutely. But, um, as far as what information to pick based on your feelings, that that's not it. I've been accused of cherry-picking in my movie, and it just makes me laugh. I'm like, "Duh." You know, because I am not trying to show the whole story. You can go into *Deseret* book, close your eyes and point anywhere and get a book on the normal story of polygamy, the traditional narrative of polygamy everywhere. It's not hidden. I have no need to rehash that. I'm trying to show you the documents that have been left out of the story. So, of course, I'm cherry-picking. I am picking the cherries that the historians left on the tree when they cherry-picked. Like, is that fair?

That's fair.

Yeah, it's true.

If I'm filling potholes, I don't need to resurface the entire thing. I'm filling the holes. And you don't complain that I didn't do the whole road. It's like, there were holes and I filled them. That's part of why I feel like your story is so important, Michelle's, and others, because you're, if anything, you're victims of the church's hiding and deception and misinformation at a minimum, that's just a fact. In other words, whatever position you've arrived at and whatever passion you've arrived at it with is at least significantly driven by the church just not being candid and upfront with the documents. Whether it was punishing past historians or putting out *Saints* and leaving out of this information or just not integrating it into the curriculum so that we could know about D&C 101 and we could know about, you know, these other sorts of things. So, when you say church, who do you mean? Like, I always, I always just sort of bristle at that because I do think it's the historians. And so, I think the church's fault is to not quality check, right? They, they haven't taken the time to look at Brian Hales's work and see if it's based on good, good documentation. Let me start here. So, yeah.

Excommunicating Fawn Brodie, excommunicating, you know, or threatening with excommunication of Sandra Tanner and Gerald Tanner. Um, uh, excommunicating Jeremy Reynolds or me, like, and me like the church silencing people that tried or or even intimidating the authors of, um, of *Mormon Enigma*, threatening them with excommunication. Just that practice of silencing people that want to talk openly, I think is that's part on the church.

For sure. That part is on the church. The obfuscating the history, I'm not sure how much they knew that was going on. That, that's, I guess the difference. So, I don't know if I can fault them for hiding history as much as just blindly trusting their historians to whom they've outsourced it. So, that's up for debate for sure. And maybe somebody will have some, something in the comments.

The other. Okay. The other, the other thing is.

They didn't, it wasn't just, you know, about Leonard Arrington, right?

Like, they start the church history department to finally be honest about the church history. They let Leonard Arrington do his thing from '72 to '82.

Yeah. 10 years of an actual historian.

Then they start to not like the history he's producing.

And then within 10 years, they, they fire him.

Okay. Shuttle the, shuttle the department and, and, uh, yeah, keep business as usual.

No, you're right. So, whoever was in charge of that decision, you're you're correct. That was an overt attempt at squelching history. You're right. So, I, for sure, I give you that. I mean, it's not a big deal to me, the difference, but, um, it just, I do fault, I do fault the historians, but you're right. There's at some point they made the decision to not have a professional historian as the church historian and to.

Well, even in modern times, historians, who do they choose as historians? Marlon Jensen, what is what is his occupation?

I don't even know what.

I know.

Yeah, that's what Kyle McKay is, right?

Snow attorney.

Kyle McKay.

Kyle McKay.

The church in modern times doesn't even want to use a historian to be church.

That's what I mean. Yeah. We only had one for 10 years.

Joseph Fielding Smith was not a historian. Right. B.H. Roberts was not a historian. So, like, for the overwhelming.

And whatever, 20 years, all but 10 years.

The church didn't want to even have a historian be church historian.

It's painful.

So, I mean, crush you on this.

Yeah. Yeah.

But I don't like always the accountability flowing downhill.

I, you know, I can get on board with that. And you're, that is a great point. Like, the ones today, I just, I don't buy that the apostles are digging into this and know better. Maybe, maybe not. But, but what you're talking about, when they made the conscious decision to not have a professional historian as the church historian, that is definitely on them. Absolutely.

And it's still to this day.

Yeah. Absolutely.

They're still doing that.

They're still doing that. So, call upon them to, to do that. That might be a request.

Okay. [Laughter] Okay. So, okay. So, you learn all this stuff. Okay. And you just, thank you for acknowledging, uh, the emotional aspect, but that's not in any way me trying to imply that you're.

Your, uh, scrutiny of the documents and your meticulousness of the documents is not laudable. It is laudable. And the fact that Dan Vogel is saying he loves your video and loves your book, I don't think there's bigger praise, honestly.

That's awesome. I mean, again, thank you, Dan. That's that's fantastic. I love that.

Yeah. Okay. So, you learn all this stuff.

Where does that take you? And this is just two years ago, two, three years ago.

So, I'm on fire and I'm like, "This is the best thing. This has helped my marriage." You know, it's a, it's a horrible thing to think that you love this man, but someday there's going to be another girl in the mix. You know, this is not cool. And these poor men are trying to console their wives and say, "Look, I'm not going to take another wife." You know, and our position is, "Yeah, but if it's a commandment, you will, because you're a righteous guy." So, it just doesn't help for them to promise that. You're like, "You're promising to do something that might go against God's commandment. If polygamy is really from God, then this is going to be a thing in my future. There's just no way around it, right?" It's very disturbing and distressing. So, you just sort of put it on the proverbial shelf and keep it in the back of your mind and hope it doesn't rear its ugly head at the most inopportune times. You know, thinking about some other woman.

Do you start to worry about like the implications of DNC 132 being true.

And still being valid doctrine and still being.

Sure, the whole time until I was done with it with Rob's video. Honestly, I, I have a very empirical way of thinking and when you show me the documents that our founder was like, "No, it's a crime. That's we're done. I'm done. That's cool. That's a much better that fits much better with everything." And you don't have to pretzel yourself into a crazy twist thinking, "How did the prophet still do this behind Emma's back? It doesn't make any sense." And now it makes total sense.

So, you decided that you felt like it was okay to not accept DNC 132 as scripture.

It's definitely, yeah, it's tampered with for sure.

But that's a pretty big thing for a Mormon, a faithful Mormon to just feel confident or empowered enough to say an entire section of canonized scripture is false. That's a big deal. I, I don't think I've ever known a faithful Mormon that arrived at that conclusion that stayed a faithful Mormon.

So, I know a few, you know, it turns out, yeah, it's crazy. But no, I, it never crossed my mind because that was the whole point. It's like, hey, it's, can I scripture what.

Are you going to do? Obviously, it's from God. There was just no question until I saw and one of the things that Rob points out, and I point out in my video and my book, is that there is a history. Bighgam talks about revising the church history. We have, oh my gosh, I can't believe I left this out. Thank you so much for going here. We have a journal entry from Joseph Smith, written by his scribe. The scribes would sometimes speak as in, in first person, or second, or third person. Okay. This journal entry is from Joseph Smith, and it's October 5th, 1843. And it says, "Walked up and down street with scribe, gave instructions to try those who were teaching or preaching the doctrine of plural wives, of a plurality of wives." Okay? So he's talking about church courts on this law. Joseph forbids it. "No man shall have but one wife." That is what the journal entry says.

Eleven or twelve years after Joseph's death, the Utah scribes change that. They change it to say, "Unless the Lord commands otherwise, for I hold the keys of this power." And no one could they add all this to it. And they absolutely, uh, scratch out the part where it says, "No man shall have but one wife." That's just gone. That is in my book. The pictures of those doctored documents are in my book. It's altered. No one disputes it. It's right there in the church history. You can see the draft of it. You can see what's been crossed out. You can see what's been added in, in another hand. And it's all there.

It's not disputed. Can I just add? Yeah. That that's just scratching the surface. Like, if you, this is some of the work that Tanners did. We've covered this in the LDS Discussions episode. The Doctrine and Covenants, from the 1835 version to subsequent versions, they take stuff out from revelations Joseph Smith received. They add stuff. They write in a whole bunch of stuff that Joseph didn't, didn't publish in his first version.

Correct. Brigham Young had Joseph Smith's mom's bio, autobiography rewritten once he didn't like what she published. Like, he tried to burn them all and then it got republished and he's so mad. Yeah. So, I mean, I think something where I think you and I and all credible historians can agree on is that starting with Brigham Young going forward, there were all sorts of unsavory shenanigans. Yes. Where the, the LDS corporate LDS Utah church was rewriting and deceiving people through rewriting history.

Well, even before it was a corporation. But sure. Sure. And you're saying even to the point of rewriting Joseph Smith's own words? Absolutely. We can all agree on that. Yes. And Brian Hales treats this, and he says he acknowledges it, and he says, "Now, the amateur historian will say, 'Wow, there's a lot added here. This isn't, this is Brigham adding to Joseph.'" And he says, "It's not. It's just bringing it into conformity with what we knew Joseph was trying to teach." It's like, are you kidding me? That's your answer? So, you know, if someone, if that rings true to someone, more power to you. It's fine. But just don't say that we, that our, you know, our narrative is flimsy. It's not flimsy. It's very, very well documented. They absolutely changed his journal to say the exact opposite of what he originally said. Totally. So, there's precedent for this. So, yes, I believe that his original revelation on eternal marriage was, um, tampered with and added to to the point that we have this polygamy revelation to support what was being done in Utah at the time.

Okay. So, you, what do you do then where you're no longer believing in DNC 132? Yeah. What do you, what do you do from there? Celebrate. Just celebrate. Do cartwheels. No, really. It was like, every woman. That was my goal. No woman in my acquaintance is going to suffer with this, as you know, Carolyn Pearson calls it, the, the ghost of eternal polygamy haunting the, what does he say? Haunting the hearts and minds of, you know, women and men. So anyway, it's, it's a horrible thing to have in the back of your mind that this might, that God might just capriciously command this one day, like he did for those 38 years in Utah, right? It's a crazy idea. It damages your impression of God.

He says he's unchanging. And yet he's like, "Oh, it's an abomination today. Oh, it's a commandment now. Oh, it's an abomination again." That's not an unchanging God. That's really damaging to faith. It's really damaging to the, your impression of the character of God. It's totally confusing about Joseph Smith and what a prophet is and how a prophet should act. And if I hear one more person saying, "Well, Joseph slept with all these women behind Emma's back." But nobody's perfect. You shouldn't have a prophet up on a pedestal. Hello. If my husband was on a pedestal that low, we would have been divorced ages ago, right? You can't marry other women and just call it imperfect. That's not cool.

Okay. And I'll just say Dan Vogel has strong opinions about the stuff you were just saying, but we'll, we'll adjudicate that somewhere else. Okay. So, but, but now back to your story. There's, there's steps you take from, like, and this is really what it's going to come down to in your excommunication. I'm guessing the truth is the church doesn't care what members privately believe. They want them showing up, paying tithing, obeying, serving, and keeping quiet about any problems they have. Right. So, talk about your journey into being vocal.

I needed to tell everybody this because, again, it's the best news ever. I think it's the best news ever. It makes sense of everything that was confusing. So, I started telling everybody and, like I said, one time, as Relief Society president, um, was I? No, I, I was already released by then at the end of 2020, I think, that we're released from our callings. Um, so this is a couple years later. No, I just, everyone I, you know, there'd be game at my house and I'd be like, "Guess what, you guys? Did you know? Have you know what the Joseph Smith Papers project is?" No. Oh, it's the coolest thing. It turned out Joseph never, uh, taught or practiced polygamy. And one of my friends says, "But you can go to the church history museum and see the pictures of his wives." And I'd say, "Yeah, but guess what? It turned out not one of them said anything until decades after he died. Not one of them made any journal entries or anything like that." And they're like, "Oh, wow." And so they'd be interested and a lot of them would be happy. Once in a while, someone, you could see it would make them nervous, you know, uh-oh, what does this mean for, I don't know, Brigham Young or whatever. And so I'd just crank it back. I don't care if it's not bothering them, then it's fine. They don't need to know it, you know. But most of, most of my friends, I think, have been happy to at least understand this, even though maybe it makes them nervous about other aspects or again, Brigham Young. I, I, you know, my my faith was never in Brigham Young. I, I can't even say my confidence was in Brigham Young. You know, he's, he's said really harsh things. The more I read about him, it's just, he said some of the worst things, right? Um, he, he taught that blood atonement doctrine. I mean, so many things that he taught are already disavowed by the church.

Adam God theory, blood atonement, all the racist garbage, super misogynistic things against women. And, and he taught that polygamy was essential for exaltation, and the church has disavowed that. So polygamy is halfway on the pile already. Like, give it a little kick. And even believing historians would probably agree that he was at least involved in the Mountain Meadows massacre cover-up, if not ordering it. But, I know they're open to that now. Definitely. So, so, okay, you're saying Brigham Young becomes very problematic for you.

We have a pile this high of his false doctrines, you know, that we've disavowed. This is one of them. It's not that big a leap. And it's such good news, too. I just don't get the reticence, you know. I just don't understand. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. I, I get what people tell me, but I can't get on board.

Okay. Well, can we talk about that then? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There because I think this is the crux, other than being vocal. Yeah. Which the, I mean, because I was just going to say, like, the weird thing about the LDS church in 20, you know, '05 and beyond is that the LDS church can simultaneously sponsor the Joseph Smith Papers project. Um, you know, uh, say publicly that they want members to, you know, publish the Gospel Topics essays, say publicly with Ballard that they want members to read the Gospel Topics essays and know them. But if you were to go to a Relief Society luncheon or teach Relief Society or teach elders quorum and actually teach the stuff that's in the Gospel Topics essays or in the Joseph Smith Papers project, you could possibly be excommunicated because the church is very uncomfortable with members actually learning and sharing and talking about the actual history. Am I wrong?

Well, you can talk about the Gospel Topics essays. You can parrot those off anytime you want. But, but the things that go against it that are from the Joseph Smith Papers project, partially funded by the church. If you bring those up, that's not okay. I think that if some, Okay. I'll give you my opinion. The summer Relief Society president or some elders quorum president said, "What we're going to do now is we're going to just do an in-depth study of the Gospel Topics essays for the next six months." That person would would get released. And ultimately, because they weren't sharing the official curriculum, which is the Come Follow Me manual. You're right. But also, let's just say somebody decided that for the next 10 years, every fast and testimony meeting, they were going to share their favorite part of the difficult history and the Gospel Topics essays. What would happen to that person?

You're right. I see where you're going with this. You're saying that if we, because they're kind of quietly snuck in there. No. Intentionally. Right. Right. They're they're published so that the church can have plausible deniability that they're deceiving people. But the church does not want members actually reading and learning from them and discussing them pervasively. And I think they've even gone on record saying, I think Stephen Snow said, "We soft-released the Gospel Topics essays but did not feel comfortable with the general membership really, really reading them."

Oh, is that right? Is that Steven Smoot or Steven Snow, the one who followed? No, the, the church historian that followed Marlon Jensen. Oh, okay. Was Snow. He is an attorney and he's on record as saying, "We soft-released these Gospel Topics essays." And I can tell you, I've interviewed 10 years worth of former Mormon bishops who were Mormon bishops after 2015, who during the entire time they were Mormon bishops, not only didn't read the Gospel Topics essays, didn't know they were there. And that's intentional on the church leadership's part. In my opinion. So anyway.

And what I'm saying is, is like, we're in this, you were caught in this weird situation where you're like, learning this history that, that the Gospel Topics essays and the Joseph Smith Papers Project all would back up. Not the, not the Gospel Topics essays. They say the opposite. They say unequivocally that Joseph was a polygamist. And they doubled down on that this summer. I was so sad. Saying, I guess, the historical documents that the Gospel Topics essays cite, you're trying to talk about the source documents. Right? And all I'm trying to say is, in spite of the church starting to acknowledge source documents and citing them in the, some of them in the Gospel Topics essays and some of them in the Saints book, and all of them in the Joseph Smith Papers project, the church didn't want you or others actually talking about them. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah. Just, it's kind of true, right? Yeah. They only talk about certain parts of the JSP in the Gospel Topics essays. They'll quote Brigham from 1866, but they won't quote Joseph from 1835. Because they want a faith-promoting discourse. Yeah. And I think this is so faith-promoting. I just can't get over it, John. I really, it really is. I mean, what could be more, what could be more faith-promoting than it turns out our founding prophet was telling the truth and was faithful to Emma and was not a sexual predator? I can't get over it. Right? Yeah. Well, I never thought of him as that. But if you believe that God commanded it, then you can't use that label. Believe the happiness letter came from Joseph to convince Nancy Rigdon to practice polygamy. Or if you believe that Joseph Smith married two 14-year-old girls. Sure. It's just the language, obviously, that's inflammatory where they would say, "God asked him to live this hard principle." You know, it's crazy. So, it's like, whatever. I'm just saying your position exonerates Joseph Smith as not being a, a predator. Yeah. No one can even think that about him anymore. And, and it's just honestly the best news. So, yes, I was very, very vocal.

You're leaving something out. You know what you're leaving out, right? What am I leaving out? Probably. Well, the problem is, and I'm sure, and I want to hear your conversations, but the implications of everything you believe and are talking about is that a prophet, seer, and revelator, and not just Brigham Young, but maybe several after him, were corrupt.

So, okay. So I will totally give you my take on this. All right. I think it's really simple. It's not difficult. I don't understand. I really don't understand the reticence once you think about it. If you, most people have it lined up as a domino effect, right? The Book of Mormon, they know that's true. They can feel it. So they believe that that Joseph Smith is a prophet. I think that's reasonable because that's his fruit. So I don't think God would give us the Book of Mormon through an evil person. I just don't. So those make sense to me. Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith. But then you have this domino effect. Well, if Joseph Smith, then Brigham Young, and John Taylor came third, we know, and Wilford, you know, Lorenzo Snow, and all the things. It's like, so those are assumptions, right? Jesus never said, "Ye shall know them by their unbroken line of authority." Like he never said that. That would have been a lot simpler for us to identify a true prophet. Is this unbroken line of authority if it existed? He didn't say that. He said, "Ye shall know them by their fruits." So, if you want to look back in church history or currently and find out who's a prophet, look at their fruits. It's as simple as that. We have a story in the Book of Mormon about King Noah. Okay, this is a really important story. You've got King Noah. And it says when he got to be king, he put down all the priests that his father had consecrated and put new ones in their stead who were idolatrous and lazy and had many wives and concubines. Okay. So we have this, there is no unbroken line of authority to King Noah's priests. He, he got rid of the ones that you could argue were in the line and he, he chucked them and put new ones. No line of authority, no unbroken chain there. You can't argue that. And yet, one of those priests who did not have a, a demonstrable line of authority anyway, you, you know, maybe there's something that we're not being told, but you can't argue it from the scriptures. One of those wicked priests, Alma, runs off, repents, and is given power and authority from God to lead his church. That's a key central story in the Book of Mormon. There's God called him because of his repentance and desire to follow Christ. He didn't call him from some line of authority. So why do we have to have that? Why is it a big deal if Brigham Young and some people think Brigham Young was deceived? He made a mistake. Whatever, however you want to explain the fact that he really did do polygamy. I, again, I'm not going to attribute motive, but if he turns out to be a King Noah who was wicked and didn't have power and authority from God but did all these things, so what? Like, take him out of it. That's fine. All the subsequent leaders of the church, judge them by the way Christ says to, by their fruits. That's all I can say. I don't know why it's complicated.

Doesn't that put the church in apostasy, if it's led by corrupt prophets though? How do you know they're corrupt? Judge them today. Judge the ones today by their fruits. Well, doesn't that put the church between 1844 and let's just say 1915 in apostasy because they're led by prophecies or revelators who are hiding and lying?

See, like we talked about before, Joseph F. Smith, for instance. Was he lying or did he? I mean, he did lie to Congress. That's not disputed, right? But so, yes, he did lie. Yeah. But, but was he lying about polygamy? See, he, we already have discussed that Joseph F. Smith was the one saying, "Let's gather up the evidence that Joseph was a polygamist." Well, you don't say that if you're one of the insiders because, you know, there's no evidence. He believed it. You're saying he was sincere. He believed it. He was raised by Brigham and Heber. And it's my opinion. He was Hyram's son. Right. He was four years old when Hyram was killed. And so he was effectively raised by Heber C. Kimball and Brigham Young, the hardcore polygamist, right? The, the worst we had. So I think that he believed them that Joseph really did practice this. He could well have believed that this was a holy principle. I don't know. But I know that God judges us by what we truly believe. And, you know, so I don't know. He's in a different category to me than Brigham Young. And so anyway, you've got to judge them by their fruits and not by some line of authority, you know? So, if either direction, do you see what I mean? You don't throw them out because they're all in a line, and you don't keep them all because they're all in a line.

I mean, honestly, what you're saying right now is consistent with what the church is teaching in 2025, which is, stop expecting your Mormon prophets to be perfect. They're, they're even willing to say that cautiously and rarely. But that's actually the church's official line right now is, there's no such thing as prophetic infallibility. Right? So, I mean, in some sense, I think the church agrees with you, which is weird because you just got to communicate it. [Laughter] You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I, I absolutely do. What you're saying is actually consistent with what the church believes.

Oh, you, you wouldn't believe. You want to talk consistency? I read them words at my excommunication, my council. I read them words from President Nelson, from Russell M. Nelson, that were just like searing. I mean, against what they were doing to me. They, it flew in the face of. Talk about that. Okay. So, really quickly. So, two, two other things, though. So, I get it that a pro, we shouldn't expect perfection from our prophets. Not, not just that, but some of them might not have been prophets. That's fine with me. Like, go and judge. Look at their lives, look at their writings, whatever, and you'll find some that weren't, some that weren't. You know, some that you could like, I could believe he was a prophet, or some that you're like, that's not okay.

Well, weirdly, I don't think Brigham Young or any prophet until David O. McKay called themselves any other president called themselves prophets. Rarely. It was rare. Okay. When they said "the prophet," they were they were talking about Joseph Smith. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. The prophet was Joseph Smith. Okay. Two other problems, then, and then I want to get just fully into your story in the disciplinary council stuff. But one is that I think in their minds, there's this teaching that was drilled into all of our heads from very young, which is, "The prophet will never lead the church astray." And I think in many Mormons' minds, the, the church leaders today are afraid that if Mormons were to learn and believe that prophets got it wrong on major things across multiple prophets across multiple decades, that that goes against that teaching that a prophet will never lead a member astray. That's the first problem. What do you think about that?

Oh, I hate that that saying. And it's so funny because Brigham said it, but the most famous example of where that comes from is Wilford Woodruff from the 1890 Manifesto. So if you can put yourself back there, here are all these people who have sacrificed everything. Some have been disowned by their families for following the Mormons, you know, and and having multiple wives and doing all these crazy things, right? So they've sacrificed their happiness. These women were, by, I mean, the vast majority of women living in polygamy were miserable. That is their private journals. They were miserable. And so they've sacrificed so much to live what they were told was this unchanging commandment that was required for your exaltation. And then Wilford Woodruff gets up and says, "Not doing it anymore." So some of them were like, "What?" And it was really hard. So he said, "Look, this is from God. God will never permit me or any other president of this church to lead us astray." That's where we get that. Okay? And the kicker is in the Manifesto, it says, "We are not permitting any persons to enter into polygamous relationships." Right. And they were, they still were, and that's again, well-documented. They still were doing new polygamous marriages up through 1904 and beyond. And lying about it. And lying to Congress about it. Oh, no, and the world. And, and to the world. Sure. And so it's super painful. Like, that phrase that they can't lead you astray came from a statement which was patently false, and, and he knew it was false.

So do you believe that the prophets can lead the church astray? Of, of course, anyone can. Of course. Like, that's that should be a given. My goodness. Because they're human. Because they're human. Yes. If you can, if you say they're infallible, then of course they can say something that's not correct. It depends on, I guess, it depends on what your definition of "lead astray" is. But if Bruce McConkie says the blacks will never get the priesthood till the millennium, that's that's Or the First Presidency signs a statement saying the curse of Cain priesthood ban is doctrine. Yes. And Marky Peterson says they're not worthy of, you know, whatever. There's so many quotes from "quote prophets, seers, and revelators" with, I would say, a capital P prophets, capital, because that's their title, right? They're perhaps working toward being prophetic, but it doesn't mean that they are prophesying. Right? So anyway, I just, I didn't grow up in that. I think it's important that I didn't steep in this as a child for all those years, right? I hopped in when I was 17. I was almost an adult. And I just, it's okay with me that some of them aren't prophesying when they speak, or simply flawed, or deceptive.

Totally an error, like a King Noah. Or deceptive, or even evil. And that's my, even evil. Brigham. Oh, yeah. You think Brigham was evil? Yeah. If, if someone, if someone thinks I'm crazy for saying that Brigham is wicked, they haven't read his words. Like, the Journal of Discourses, almost close your eyes and pick a page. I mean, it's really bad. So, the things.

Do you feel similarly about John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow? No, I haven't studied them so much. You know for sure. John Taylor. John Taylor, see, again, we have a record of him being in Europe telling the people that they weren't practicing polygamy when he already, yeah, when he already had several wives. He was deceiving converts in England. That that the church didn't practice polygamy while he already had plural wives. Correct. And that's pretty evil to me. Absolutely. So again, I refrain from judging how God sees them. I don't know what's going on in their lives, whether they think it's the right thing to do to lie because they think they're serving God. Like Paul, we have Saul, right? Saul is putting Christians to death, believing that he's doing what's right, you know, until Christ appears to him. I mean, that's important that we have that story. So, I, it's not to me to judge their eternal salvation, but I can judge that their actions. I can say unequivocally, yes, John Taylor was lying when he said that they weren't practicing polygamy because he had wives. There's, you can't say it's not a lie.

That's, I think that borders on trafficking. If you could, you agree. If you convert a bunch of poor young European women in the 19th century to come poor, not speaking English, to leave your family, come to America to then be groomed and and siphoned off to old, powerful, rich Mormon men to be plural wives. Yeah. It's hard to believe that they really thought that that was from God. So that's not my, you know, that's not, I don't think that they thought it was from God.

So you're okay saying that borders on trafficking territory? Yeah. To me. Mhm. Absolutely. I mean, that, it's hard to get someone to admit that, but I think that, Oh, no. No. I think it's, I mean, I mean, that is what that is what happened to some of them. And you can't, and people are going to be, "Oh, not my grandmother, she liked it or something." I don't know. Or she made her own decision. That's fine. But when you tell somebody your eternal exaltation is at stake here if you don't do this, are they really making that decision of their own free will and choice, or are they being coerced? I mean, I think it's pretty obvious. So, not all of them were. Some of them really did, you know, believe that it was of God and they entered into it willingly. But again, there was this thread that was always preached to them that it was essential, or you're keeping, you're holding your husband back from his glory and his exaltation, you know, and it's just, I just can't get that that's not coercion. Part of what's hard is that as I read the Nauvoo Expositor, these are the very allegations that William Law was making about Joseph and the Nauvoo leadership. So, you're basically saying, "Yes, all that happened and was trafficking, but it started with Brigham, not Joseph."

Ding. Exactly. Right. I, I always say that. Look, the sympathy that you feel for these women, absolutely, that is warranted. You're just aiming at the wrong guy. Do you believe Brigham and John Taylor were practicing polygamy before Joseph's death? 100%. You do? Yeah. Yeah. We, we have, I mean, there's no 100%. We have Brigham on record. He married Augusta Cobb. So, in addition to his current wife, he, he was in Maine and he married this woman. She left her husband and some of her children to come with Brigham. And that was in '43. And a few years later, her husband sued in court for, um, divorce on the grounds of adultery, and he won. So that's on record. I mean, if Brigham Young was secretly practicing polygamy, not telling Joseph. Yeah. And then allows it all to be pinned on Joseph. That's super evil stuff.

Of course. And people go, "Well, how could the church have gone off the rails that soon, or whatever you want to call it, right? How could polygamy have gotten its way in here if it wasn't real?" Look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. When were the tares sown, Josh? John, when were the tares sown? They were sown immediately. You know, it wasn't like, "Oh, the wheat was flourishing for a long time and then the tares got in." Now, they were planted at the same time, and we were told that the tares couldn't have been plucked out without ruining the wheat. I don't know how that works, but all I know is the parable's right there. They, they were both sown at the same time. And now is the time. It's, it says, "Pretty soon you'll be able to tell the wheat from the tares finally." And that's where we are. Like, that's where we are. And I, you know, I was continually told, "Can't you wait on the Lord's time? Can't you stop preaching this? Can't you stop? Can't you put everything away and just wait for the Lord's timing?" I'm like, "This is the Lord's timing." Things don't change because time passes. Things change because people do things during that time. And this is what he's doing. He's made this available. All of us said, "Oh, I bet we'll have answers to polygamy someday." It's today. We have answers today. The answers you've been waiting for are there.

I love it. Okay. The last thing I was going to say is I think their biggest concern, and I think this is probably their biggest concern with you and with Michelle and others, is the easy conclusion that modern Mormons will make that if the brethren ever got it majorly wrong on big issues like blacks in the priesthood, polygamy, etc., that the leader, that the members today will will stop believing and or obeying and or unquestionably following the current church leaders. So, just to summarize, their biggest concern is that your position on Brigham Young being corrupt would allow members today to stop believing in Russell M. Nelson or Dallin H. Oaks and to obey and follow them because if they could get it wrong, then how do we know that D.H.O. or Russell and Nelson today aren't getting it wrong about LGBT people or about whatever else, pick your topic?

Believe me, sure. And, and I mean, that's, that's their biggest worry. Right? Well, it shouldn't be because people have discernment. You're supposed to have discernment. You're supposed to not shut your brain off and be like, "Good thing I'm getting driven to the celestial kingdom by whoever's at the head of the church." That is not how we're supposed to do things. We're supposed to have a relationship with our Savior and know him personally and be able to discern truth from error as we study and have faith by study and by faith, right? And so all these things can be made known to us, what's true and what's not. Um, I often hear, and I'm sure you've heard, that the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a smorgasbord. You can't pick and choose the parts you like and the parts you don't, right? Have you heard that?

Oh, yeah. And I think some people are calling you a buffet Mormon in the chat. Yeah, I'm sure. And so that statement, I agree with 100%. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not a smorgasbord. You have to take all of it. But you know what is a smorgasbord? Church teachings. [Laughter] I mean, can you think of a better word, right? Like, no, blacks weren't not valiant in the pre-existence. That's a Twinkie. Leave it. Right. And it's okay. That's okay. So when someone speaks, I mean, Joseph Smith taught that when someone speaks, you need to compare it to the acknowledged word of God. And if it doesn't match, they're an impostor. So that's important. Joseph.

But you're also saying even the acknowledged word of God, like DNC 132, is also questionable. But see, you, those saints should have questioned that against the acknowledged word of God at that time, right? So, you're right. The, the actual scriptures can get changed. And of course, we're taught that. That's the Eighth Article of Faith, right? "We believe the Bible in as much as it was translated correctly."

But that's the Bible, not the DNC. And the, Yeah, that's immune. But, you know, that's the point is that the word of God is more than just the scriptures. It's the spirit confirming things to you. It's the Alma test is a huge one. And so do that. Actually plant the seed. And if it makes you feel horrible and destroys your marriage, [laughter] it's not good. Cast it out.

And so it's, this is way with everything. Um, or if it causes generations of people to leave the church. There you go. Um, [laughter] there's things, you know, I'm happy even today, I'm happy to still listen to General Conference and sort of default to, "It's probably correct what they're saying." But if something clanks, then I'm not going to accept it. So, for instance, I will pin one down and they can, um, you know, crucify me in the condiment section. It's okay. But Dale Renlund gave a talk a few years ago. Um, I call it the runway talk. I think it was called "A Framework for Personal Revelation." I think that was the name of it. And he talked about how you're allowed to get revelation on, on your personal stewardship, you know, on your who to marry, where to work, things like that. But you can't get revelation outside of that. You know, each of us has our own runway, he said. And that just didn't ring true. And I looked at the scriptures and sure enough, you've got Moroni 10:5 that we are all familiar with. "By the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may know the truth of..." What? All things. All things. And we have Alma 12. "He who will not harden his heart, to him will give be given more of the word of God until he knows the mysteries of God in full." We have Ammon in Alma 26. We have Ammon saying, you know, after they've converted so many Lamanites, and he says, "Whosoever shall repent and exercise faith and bring forth good works and pray continually, to such it will be given to bring thousands to repentance and to reveal things that never have been revealed." Do you see an asterisk on there saying, "If you have a certain position?" No. And to me, the kicker is in Third Nephi 26. The Savior has been teaching the people for days. And it says, "The children's mouths were opened and they taught their fathers greater things than the Savior had taught." That's incredible. And it puts to rest the idea of this runway that you can only receive certain kinds of revelation. It's not true. And as we said, the kicker is, I'm not trying to, I'm not a Hyrum Page. I don't have a seer stone. I'm not claiming to get new revelation. I'm just highlighting stuff that the church said they wanted to be transparent with. So that's the, that's the amazing part. But [cough and clears throat] all, all revelation, all knowledge is available to us if we will keep the commandments and do what's right. So that's it. So when you hear them speak at conference, you use your discernment. You just don't blindly follow. We're taught not to blindly follow. Right.

Yeah. And I think that, I love that. That's a mature perspective that empowers the members. I think the brethren are afraid at the consequences of people feeling empowered, just like Joseph was with Hyrum Page. You know what I mean? Or Oliver.

But he was, I, I don't know. I don't know what Hyrum Page was receiving through the stone, whether it was true or false. I, I'm happy to assume it was false. I don't know. But all I know is I just think we're being underestimated. If the church suddenly said, "Look, new information has become available. The origins of polygamy are unclear, but it looks like Joseph Smith may not have taught it." I do not think there's going to be a mass exodus. Quite the opposite. I think most members, the vast majority will say, "What? Did Joseph practice polygamy? I never heard that." I don't think they will care. There will be a small contingent that's mad because they really were looking forward to polygamy, and there's going to be quite a few who say, "Thank heavens," like I did, and want to be doing cartwheels.

It's possible. It's possible. I think, and I don't want to get derailed. I want to get back to your story. But the, the argument against what you just said is the Community of Christ, our LDS church, when they started changing their official narrative in the '60s and '70s, they lost like two-thirds of their membership. Mm. What? Mm-m. What? [clears throat]

Look at it closely. In fact, Michelle did a really good episode because people always, don't you know, even the RLDS admit Joseph was a polygamist. They were built, right? They stayed back. You know, these are the people that didn't go with Brigham. And their story the whole time for 100 plus years was, "Joseph did not practice polygamy." Do you know what happened the minute they started saying Joseph did practice polygamy? What happened, John? It wasn't the change. It wasn't that they changed. It was what they changed to.

100%. John, [laughter] I have friends who were there at a meeting of hundreds of people and their leadership got up and basically said, "Look, we're going in this new direction." The polygamy thing wasn't the only change, but it was a huge one. And it was also women and priesthood, some other things, but polygamy was a big part of it. And they basically said, "Look, this is our new direction." And they kind of said, you know, "If you don't like it, you can leave." And she was there. This was in the '80s. Hundreds of people got up from that meeting and left and never returned. It is repulsive. And what did happened to them? They went bankrupt. All their most tithe-paying members left because they do believe Joseph. They stuck with the original doctrine. When they changed, they left that, and they had to sell all their stuff to us. They literally went bankrupt. So, no, I don't believe it for a second. The church, I could imagine, is going to follow that if they keep up this polygamy narrative because it's out now. People can see it for themselves. They can look at these documents and say, "Oh my goodness, this did not happen the way I thought. Joseph is innocent of this." And if the church doubles down on it, I'm, I'm afraid of what will happen. I'm so sorry. You know.

It's, I think they're damned either way. I think if they, I really don't. I honestly don't, John. I'm not an apologist for the church. They've kicked me out. Don't you think they've pilot-tested this, like surveyed people to see what the results would be? Like, if they, if it would benefit them to do it, don't you think they'd do it?

So what they have to move away from is the domino theory. Okay. I, I get that that's kind of in everybody. It's like, I mean, that's what Steven Smith says. That's what Brian Hales says. They accuse us of motivated reasoning. "You just hate polygamy so much." Well, they actually have said out loud that it's most important to figure out what this would mean for the church today. I was like, "Whoa, that's not scholarly. That's not scholarly." So they're the ones absolutely using motivated reasoning. "I can't accept that Joseph didn't do that because what would that mean for Brigham and all the rest of the prophets?" Like, I don't know what it would mean, but who cares? Like, let's just figure out what's true and false and go from there. So, um, so I, I just, you know, we're guessing, like you and I are both guessing, our best guesses, but I do not think that if they came and were transparent with how Joseph, um, and Emma and Hyrum all fought against polygamy and that it wasn't a thing and that these other testimonies all came from decades later, I just don't see it being bad. Let's just embrace truth and let it lead us wherever. Well, if the church ends up agreeing with you someday, they're gonna have to issue an apology to you for what they did.

So, I'll hold my breath. Here. [Laughter] I go. Um, all right. Let's get back to your story. So, you start telling Relief Society members in your ward about everybody. What happens next?

They love it. So, honestly, they, this is how it usually goes. Like, they love it. They're kind of like, "Really?" They're skeptically hopeful that it's true because we all hate polygamy. So they're like, "And I'm like, 'Yeah, I got documents.'" So I would have people over to my house. I'd say, "Come over Friday and watch the movie." So we'd have people over, or if they just wanted the link, and I just go, "Watch it on your own." And then they'd get back to me like, "Wow, that was mind-blowing." And things like that. So it was cool. And then, you know, of course, it's like, "Oh, what does that mean about Brigham?" You know, like, it just doesn't bother me. But so I tell them my take on it, and that's fine. So, I mean, the bulk of my ward understands where I'm coming from, and they haven't come at me with with pitchforks. You know, I, I just think I'm really blessed, John, because I have a very Christlike ward, and I can almost empirically show you that. Uh, but, but I'll spare you the details, but they are special. They are not, um, they haven't pushed back. They haven't been rude to me. They haven't shunned me, anything like that. They love me. And even after I got excommunicated, the Sunday right after, they loved me. They hugged me. It's been amazing. So, I appreciate that very much. And I'm not going to say that all of them are on board with this, but they all are on board with being Christlike. And so, they've been so nice.

I love that. Yeah. Me too. And so, I'm not going anywhere. And there was a point at which I had to, you know, I had to say, "Do I need to distance myself from the church?" That was a valid question. And so I wanted to know if, like, people's complaints, you know, the SEC violations, right? The hotline that goes to Corbin McConkie instead of help. All the things you can, sexual child sexual abuse cover, the offering $300,000 to the mom and her daughter to please not talk about this. All those things are real. So I had to say, "Do I need to distance myself and not come?" And I went to testimony meeting that Sunday that I'd been thinking about this. And see, nothing makes me sad or cry about this whole thing, but this might make me cry because it was so sweet. That was my question on my heart. And I went to the testimony meeting and these people got up and they testified of Christ and they testified of what he did for them that week. They testified of being downtrodden and how he lifted them miraculously. One lady testified as she told the story about being on a river raft trip and how they were thrown out of the boat. And she explained that she's been on lots of trips. She's never been thrown out of the boat. The reason she was thrown out of the boat was because the guide had told them, "Don't paddle. I'm going to be the only one paddling through this rapids." And they got thrown out. And she said, "That's not how it's supposed to work. One person doesn't paddle and the rest of you just sit in the boat. We're all supposed to be paddling." And you can see where she's going with this. The whole testimony meeting was beautiful. And the last one to bear her testimony was this 15-year-old girl that said, "I want to bear my testimony about this ward." And the whole time I'm just feeling God's answering my question. Do I stay? And he's answering it affirmatively. And for her to get up and say that at the very end, "I want to bear my testimony about this ward." She said, "I am an introvert, but I've never felt uncomfortable in this ward." And when our girls went to stake girls' camp, our ward got so many compliments on how Christlike and united we are. And [clears throat] I was just a mess. And it was a very, very, very clear answer to me to the question that I had. Should I stay? I'm staying. So, I knew from the get-go, I'm not going anywhere. I'm still attending. They can erase my name off some ledger in some file cabinet somewhere. I don't care. It's not going to change my.

computer record at this point.

"They can type type and I'm gone. I don't care. I'm staying. So, I love my word. I love worshiping Christ with these people who also believe Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and the restoration. And it's a pleasure to worship with them."

"Yeah. It's beautiful. Um, okay. So, you concluded that no matter what, you uh were going to stay."

"Maybe we can start talking about the opposition you started receiving from members and or..."

"That's a quick leadership."

"It really is a quick story. Um..."

"I put out my movie on October 10th."

"Was that Did you start a channel first or..."

"Um, I had there was nothing on my channel there."

"Okay."

"Yeah. Nothing effectively. So you decided to make a movie..."

"Because why? Why did you need a movie? You had this other guy's movie."

"Oh yeah, that only right. It was very engineery and you had to look closely at the URLs. The documents were it needed to be better and it needed to not better is not the word more comprehensive. That's the word. So he treated several documents but there's so much more. There was so much more that are just zingers that just are so powerful. So, I was like, we have to compile all these in one place."

"And is this video, this movie you're about to talk about, is it available right now?"

"Absolutely. It's called Woe Unto You Scribes."

"What's your channel called?"

"Karen Hyatt. I don't know if..."

"Karen Hyatt TT."

"Yeah. If you type woe unto you Scribes. Oh, well, there I am. So, that second one down there is me explaining my excommunication. I highly recommend that. That will give you detail that I won't give you all of today. And right down there. Yep."

"Okay. Wo to you. So, we're just going to make sure this is included."

"Thank you very much. I appreciate that. And I have a website called josepholdthetruth.org and it has all the links to all the documents. It has a PDF interactive. You can go read it and click on everything. It'll take you right to the documents in the Joseph Smith papers or journal of discourses or Brian Hail's work wherever wherever it's found scriptures."

"Decide to create a video to provide all the reasons and documentation. So, the things that I felt were the most important within reason. I mean, you could do a 10-hour video easily, easily. But I had to pair it down." [laughter]

"And this was when when did you release this video?"

"October 10th of 2024."

"So, this was a little over a year ago."

"Yes."

"So, I put that out there and I put it on there and my my intent was to say, 'There you go, everyone. Done. Wash my hands of it'..."

"...and move on."

"And move on. And it was like ah the views were crazy. It got like 10,000 views in a week and..."

"...it's up to 60,000."

"Yeah, it's up to 60,000 now. But it got like 10,000 views in its first week. It was crazy. So I was really happy about that and I naively thought it will just snowball and keep doing that. Well, no. Over time the views decline. So I realized h I have to do like try to do something akin to what Michelle was doing. though she's a master at her research. She really is so good at her research and doing her podcast. She's so good at it. It's such a loss that that we don't have her doing that right now, but someday. So, I was like, 'Oh my gosh, I have to do episodes.'"

"So, your goal, what was your goal with releasing the video?"

"Get rid of this out of every woman's head. You wanted all church members, all we'll say 17 million for a friend, all 17 million Mormons in the world to no longer believe that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy if they ever believed it to begin with. Let's be clear, most of the members would have to learn that he did practice polygamy or have to learn that it many people believe that he did before they would have to unlearn it because most don't think he did to begin with. So that's part of the interesting thing. you would have been educating people about the possibility of Joseph Smith's polygamy for them to then be able to not believe it..."

"...in many cases." [laughter] "In many cases, but it's funny, but um but let me say the more important thing is that it's not of God. I mean, that's far more important than whether Joseph did it."

"The polygamy wasn't of God."

"Yes."

"...that's what you wanted 17 million Mormons to believe."

"Yes. This can be gone from your head. Not back on the shelf, not plaguing you, not haunting you. Gone. He will never require this of you. It's not him."

"So he will never ask your husband to break your heart. It's such a crazy thing to have to say, but that's that's what it is. Yeah. So that was the goal."

"So..."

"And if you So if you didn't have at least 17 million views, you weren't you were done failing. So I had So I realized, okay, every time I would do a small episode on one aspect of it or something, I would do the episode and the views to that video would go up. So, I was like, gosh dang it, I have to do these, you know? So, I wanted to do them weekly. I just can't. I really don't I don't know how Michelle did it. She didn't sleep much. Let's put it that way. But, she was amazing to put out her stuff every week, week after week. I can't. So, I put my mine out every two or three or four weeks, whatever. And I put them out and I'd watch the views to the documentary go up. So, I was, 'Okay, I got to keep doing this.' And then they'd peter off in between and I'd do another episode and they'd increase. So that went that way. Anyway, for a year, John, it was up there a year and nobody had bothered me. I had talked to my I didn't like set an appointment to talk about this to my state president or anything. I don't feel that that's necessary. Like if they want to talk to me, they're welcome to talk to me, but I don't need to talk about this. But I did want it off his wife's mind. So I gave them a link to it. He said, 'Guess what? Here's this cool information. just like I would with anyone else. So, I gave them that. They didn't care. And, you know, it wasn't it was they didn't care.' [laughter] So, that's fine. That's my old stake president. And um my old bishop, you know, they was just like, 'Uh, it doesn't they weren't sure about it.' So, but nobody bothered me. So, my video was up for a year without anyone saying a word to me. Negative, you know. And on the one-year anniversary, I was invited to a screening of the Helmet Hubner movie, Truth and Treason."

"So, when was this?"

"This was October 10th of this year."

"So, we're talking two months ago."

"Mhm."

"And I went to that and that, for anyone that doesn't know what that's about, it's a teenage kid in Nazi Germany that was typing up little flyers and he and his friends would distribute them trying to wake people up to how bad the Nazi regime was. They put it in coat pockets or mail slots or put them on car windshields and just distribute these all over the place. Well, the Nazis finally caught him. They tortured him and they executed him. And this was extra poignant for me to see it on the anniversary of my movie because in some small tiny way I'm doing something similar to what he was doing and he sacrificed his life to stand up for the truth. So to me the message was very clear from God. You are not going to compromise anything. you're not going to, you know, cave for anything if it ever comes to it and you will stand up for truth no matter what as well because you're not paying the ultimate price like he did. You know, how dare you value your church membership or whatever over that. So that was a clear message. Good thing because the next day for the first time I get the state president wants to meet with you in a text, you know, I was like, are you serious after a year? So all right. So, I go in that Sunday and meet with the state president and he's like, 'Well, do you know why you're here?' And I said, 'Well, I presume it's the movie, but it's been out for a year, so it's kind of weird.' And he said, 'Well, I'm, you know, fairly new.' He had just put it been put in in January. He said, 'So, I've been getting my feet under me.' But, but he and some area authorities and others had been counseling about what to do about this for quite a while before."

"You know, if the previous state president served 10 years or if he was released..."

"...a little early because he went on a mission."

"Okay. But um..."

"...sometimes they send people on missions because they want to replace them."

"He [clears throat] would have he would have gone along. He was f he would have excommunicated me if they asked him to. Yeah. No no question. And people are always like I bet you there was a strengthening the church members committee spy in your ward and things like that. I was like if there was he had the easiest job on the planet because I was very open with this. I shared it with everybody. So no that's not okay. But they but absolutely and and I think I mentioned this before. There was a general authority that visited in January and I had an opportunity to give him my [clears throat] book. So I outed myself you guys. It's all..."

"...that if you want to say..."

"...I don't mind. It's I don't think he would mind. It's Elder Carpenter Matthew Carpenter and um..."

"...he's area authority or general authority..."

"...general authority. Okay."

"So general authority 70. I don't know if there's differences between these things but anyway. So, um, yeah, I just I had made a comment during his lesson that he really liked and at some point he referred back to it a couple of times during his lesson and all of a sudden I realized he is going to walk over to me after he's done. He's going to shake my hand and he's going to thank me for that comment and I'm going to be able to put this book in his hands. And that's exactly what happened. And so it was a miracle to me. So I don't regret doing that by any stretch. I was glad to be able to do that. And I was trying to go through quote the proper channels. I already told you I mailed a a copy of my book to every apostle. And I I don't know what else to do. You know, you've got the stream of credentialed historians all saying one thing and this little old nobody saying they're leaving stuff out. You need to see it. So it's just impossible. Anyway, so I met with the stake president and it was it was always congenial. It was always fine. He was very respectful. He would listen to what I he would ask questions and then he would thoroughly listen. He would refer back to things that I had said in previous interviews. So I know he was listening and I was very grateful for that because not every state president acts that way as as we all know. So, um, but right off the bat, he said, 'This is not about finding out what's true and what's not true,..."

"...because history is tricky."

"Alarm, ding, ding, ding." [laughter]

"So, this is about whether what you're promoting align with the current the with the church's teachings. So,..."

"...but it is current teachings, you know."

"Yeah. And he didn't specifically say it, but he he did later. But I was like, and of course to me it's like, how can it not be about the truth? But I didn't I knew we'd meet again, so I didn't push back at that time. But um but I did kind of say what I've been saying several times during this interview right now is that I wouldn't even call it the church's teachings. At least at that time, I wouldn't have. And I certainly don't in my book. I do not lay this at the feet of quote the church. It's the historians who are knowingly suppressing information. They know it and they say things like, 'Well, this isn't new. This has been out forever.' I'm like, 'I know.' Which begs the question, why don't we know it? Very irritating. That is the whole point that you guys know it and we don't. So..."

"...I and I we've already talked about this an hour or two ago, but it's the church leaders that pay the salaries of the church historians."

"For sure. Indirectly. Absolutely. I with you, but I don't want him to be burdened with that. And you you don't have to really go there. It's like look this historians should be saying this. So this is history that should be said. So anyway um but his thing but see what was good about me pointing that out is he specifically said well but on their gospel topics essays online and elsewhere they are tacitly agreeing with this. So I said agreed. Okay. So when I tell people..."

"...I have to say I've never heard of someone being excommunicated for disagreeing with the gospel topics. I say..."

"...it is bizarre..."

"...cuz they're not doctrine. They're not. But do you know..."

"...they're not even signed by the first presidency? Like..."

"...I'm sure you know this. In the handbook, the definition of apostasy now in the handbook includes opposing policy."

"Yeah. Yep."

"What? So when..."

"...policy changes and the gospel says things have changed..."

"...all the time."

"Yeah."

"And so so right away I was curious. So he, you know, I'm seeing where he's going with this and I'm I'm fine. But and again I'm fine. Do what you want. it doesn't matter to me. It has nothing to do with my life. It's not going to change. So, I'm answering his questions and I said, 'Hey, speaking of like getting excommunicated,' I said, 'Do they still, you know, convene the high council and have six for you and six against you like the Doctrine of Covenants lays out?' And he says, 'No.'"

"And I said, 'They really don't?' And he says, 'No.' He says, 'Maybe for a high-profile case, but you'd have to get special permission.' And I said, 'You have to get special permission to do it the way Joseph Smith put in the canonized scriptures.'"

"Hey, listen. If you can jettison DNC 132, they can jettison the parts of DNC that talk about disciplinary counsel, right? [laughter] That's the slippery..."

"...only if you say it didn't come from Joseph. So, so um anyway, so on our second interview, you know, I I we were real I was real chill on the first one. I knew we'd be meeting again. I didn't want him to feel cornered or, you know, attacked or anything like that."

"Did he warn you in that first one or did he?"

"He hinted at that, which is why I brought it up. You know, he was like, and um so on the second interview, I said, you know, I hope that you can grasp how surreal it is for me to be told that I have to conform to this moving target of whatever the gospel topics essay say that month or the handbook that they don't even print out. It changes so often."

"Change all the time."

"Yeah. Yeah. and to be told that I have to conform to all that wherever it goes. But we take canonized scripture in DNC 102 and just set it aside. [laughter] And he was like,..."

"'Yeah,..."

"...well, I can see, you know, he he acknowledged, but he said, well, that's why we have people that receive revelation for these things.' And I said, 'Okay, so is the theory that someone has received revelation that we don't do it this way anymore?' [laughter] And he was like, 'Oh, well, I don't make these decisions. Okay, it's fine. So, [sighs] what I reiterated several times was that, you know, this whole it's not about truth, it's just about whether it's conforming to the current position. I I can't get there. To me, when Christ says I am the way, the truth, and the life, I believe him literally. And so, I believe that he's saying he is truth. That's what he said. I think it's a title for Christ, the truth. So if you're saying it's not about truth, you're saying it's not about Christ, I just can't do it. So for me, he's at the top and everything else is below that."

"This is where I had my eyes opened because I I believe that him, oh say, what is truth is the fairest gem. You know what I mean?"

"Like Mormonism taught me the truth trumps everything, right?"

"Yes. Stand alone if you have to. But what I learned is that uh you know, you know they're true. You know what's true when their mouths are moving. In other words, what's true is what they're saying right now is true."

"Oh, I see what you're saying."

"And everything else is should be discarded. But but a a more direct way of sharing with you what I concluded is that the most sacred thing in the modern LDS church is modern priesthood authority. In other words, whatever makes sure that current members believe in the current leadership, that's the most sacred and important thing in all of the LDS church."

"And I I guess that's because they're afraid of..."

"...people leaving the church."

"Yeah. I I mean well afraid of okay this is what I've heard it described that well if we don't have everything come from one because it was like well whatever the current church president says that's what we have to if he doesn't say it then we don't do it or we don't say it and I'm like that sounds exactly like the head saying to the feet I have no need of thee right was just precisely what Christ warned against doing and so I I think we're all the body of Christ and I do not think that if we if we sort of step back and say we are all the body of Christ, it's okay. I don't think it's going to split into a million pieces and every because I do believe the spirit will inspire us and lead us all in the right direction. So, I don't think there's a fear that there's going to be a million splinters if we acknowledge that we all can receive revelation and we all can um teach each other. And it doesn't always have to, you know, just because the president of the church isn't teaching something doesn't mean maybe we shouldn't be teaching it. Do things of your own free will and choice. What does it say? Anxiously engaged in a good cause, not commanded in all things. Don't be a slothful servant and wait to be commanded. This is what we preach. and then you do it and it's like there's the door. So, it's hard. It's really hard."

"So, here's here and this is your story, but I I do like dialogue and I'll just say this that that's a viable perspective. I think it's a faithful perspective. I think it's a reasonable perspective. It is speculation. It's an opinion..."

"...for sure. I my you know I've been I've been studying these issues for 30 years and I've been watching people and talking to people leave for 20 years. Actually 30 years but I've been doing the podcast for 20 years. There probably aren't many people on the planet who've spoken with more ex Mormons than me. And I would say that if the church were to go your route, they would experience mass apostasy. And I'm not saying you have to believe me or even agree or disagree. I'm just saying I can see why they are fearful and conclude differently than you. But what I know for sure is that they would say that's above your pay grade, Karen Hyatt. [laughter] They would say, 'It's our job to know what's best for the church, not yours.' And we conclude that more people are going to be harmed by following you and Michelle Stone, they will by following the Gospel Topics essays."

"And I, you know, of course, I'm over here sort of uncomfortable with these like my when you say my, if they do it my way or whatever, my route, I'm like, this isn't really my route. This is just truth. Do you know what I mean? It's just..."

"...your framing of your review of the evidence."

"Yeah, I suppose. And anyway, and I definitely don't want followers, quote unquote. You know, it's like go subscribe to my thing, but do not we are not..."

"...follow the evidence is what you want people to do."

"Please, please, just just allow everyone to look at the documents objectively and anyway. So, okay. So, we meet three times al together, you know, and..."

"What happened after the second? What was his conclusion? Did he warn you after the second?"

"And these meetings were over what time period? October 10th through December 5th. Uh like I guess uh maybe..."

"...within a month you had three meetings."

"What did he say after the second meeting? Like did he warn you? Did he..."

"Yeah. So Okay. So the um let's see that's a whole another thing. So the second one Well, I'll go ahead and say real quick. It doesn't take a long time. I knew I something told me obviously I just knew he would be taking my temple recommend away at our next meeting. I just felt strongly that that's probably what was happening."

"The third meeting or in the second?"

"Second. So after the first meeting, you know, it was just chill and I gave him my book and he promised me that he would not take action unless he watched my movie first, which is very good of him and he kept his word."

"That's rare."

"It is rare. And I told him how appreciative I was. He did also say that it wouldn't make a difference [laughter] because of what we just said because it's not about what's true and what's not true. it's about whether it conforms to the current position. So no matter what the book says, even if it's compelling, it's not going to make a difference, right? So he did say that. Um but he did keep his word and he did watch the movie. So okay, so he encouraged me, you know, to consider taking down everything. And by everything, I am the most vocal of this by far, right? Michelle had her weekly, she was the most diligent um doing this every week, but I have a website that points to the movie, the to the video that we put everywhere. And we have billboards um up and down, not up and down, but we do one billboard a week somewhere along I-15."

"How long you been doing billboards?"

"Ever? Uh I think it's fourth of July. A brilliant friend of mine said, 'I'm going to rent a billboard in Provo for the Stadium of Fire weekend.'"

"When did Michelle start getting..."

"She took her stuff on February or March."

"Okay. Uh you didn't even mention what that did to you when that happened, how you felt about that. It was I was spending so long on it that you know for me personally like we we laughed because like okay you know I was about dying because it's it's a lot to edit her her stuff because she has documents to be put in there and everything."

"You were helping her."

"Mhm. Oh yeah. Boy, we skipped that shoot. After I saw the Rob Fingham video, other stuff would pop up in my feed and here comes this lady Michelle Stone. We're watching some of her. She has these long form videos every single week, you know, and at one point she talks about how her bishop is getting uh these like messages from strangers saying she and her minions are leading people out of the church. So without even looking at her stuff, he's calling her in and calling on the carpet for this because some stranger he never heard of is emailing him without looking at her stuff himself. I was livid. So, I tracked her down online, went to her house the next day and gave her a hug, you know, introduced myself. So, then a few months later when it w she was having trouble uploading her video, I found out that her son that was doing it for her was a little overloaded. So, I said, 'Do you need help? I'm happy to help you.' So, that's when I started. So, I was like episode 81. I started editing for her. So, I edited half her videos."

"So, you're a video editor?"

"I mean, yeah. I I had some experience previously. Just a little. Just a little. Um, oh gosh, we've already talked about Anyway, it doesn't matter. Um, the point, the point. Where was the point?"

"So, you were helping her a lot. So, she started getting,..."

"...let's just say, heat."

"Yeah."

"Well, you felt what?"

"Oh, I mean,..."

"you're So, wait. So, your video was already out."

"No, she took her stuff down way before..."

"...before you released."

"Sorry. I You're right. You're absolutely right. I put mine out in October. She um stopped posting February or March. So, you put your video out before she started really getting shut down."

"Hope I have that date right. Anyway, yes. Yes. Correct. Okay."

"And she promoted it on her channel. She had me on for a episode or two, you know."

"And the reason why I'm asking is because then once she starts getting heat in early of last year, this year of early this year,..."

"...you would see, uhoh, maybe the writing's on the wall. My video's up. If she's getting heat, the writing's on the wall. I might get heat, too. Surely you thought about that in February."

"Exactly that except for the uh oh I I didn't care."

"Oh wow."

"I I really..."

"...didn't care."

"No, I knew that I knew God had helped me. He helped me do the video. He helped me compile it. He helped me he brought things to my mind that I need to include and remember and he helped me every step of the way. So I was confident in his appribation for what I was doing. So I I didn't care."

"Wow."

"That's bold."

"It was I was very confident. It was a beautiful place to be. Total peace. I've had peace the whole time. I've never been um I've never been without feeling peace on this matter and it's been the greatest blessing."

"So, so um okay, so fast forward. So, there we go. So, three meetings with him and yeah, I knew he would be taking my temple recommend away on the second interview. I just felt like that's what was going to happen. And what's funny is I have never done baptisms for the dead because I joined so late that I just never done that. And it was kind of always on my like I'll do that someday list and I was like oh I guess it's like today [laughter] cuz that recommends going to go bye-bye next Sunday, you know. So we went and I just was curious like baptisms for the dead is mentioned in the Doctrine of Covenants. It's mentioned in the Bible. So like that seems to have a leg to stand on. So I was like, 'Okay, I want to go and see, you know, is there anything I'm going to be missing, Lord?' Right? So, um, so I went to the temple. I went to the temple one last time to for an endowment. And then the next day I went and did baptisms for the dead. And, um, long story short is that I just I know God can commune with you anywhere. In our own Bible dictionary, it says only the home can compare with the temple in sacredness. I've always felt the truth of that. I didn't doubt it. I know he can commune with you anywhere. And I was assured on these two temple visits that it was fine uh that my recommend be taken away. It's not going to hinder my connection with God at all. So I was very grateful for that. So I went in Sunday and yes, he did take away, you know, he said, 'Have you considered taking it down?' Like, 'Will you take it down?' I was like, 'I can't take it down.' Like I I have been asking God about this and I feel strongly that Joseph and Emma and Hyram are very very happy that their names are being cleared, that the correct history is being taught. I can't take it down. And he was very polite and he just said, 'Well, I understand why you feel that way.' And I said, 'Well, I understand why you feel like you have to do what you have to [laughter] do, you know.' So he's like, 'So, um, we met one last time. I didn't know that we would, but I got, you know, he wants to meet with you one more time.' So I went in and met with him the third time. And he said, 'I just want to give you, you know, one more. I'm going to ask you one more time to take it down. And, you know, if you if you don't, then there will be a membership council.' And I said, 'That's fine. I'm not taking it down. So So go ahead.' And it was just kind of like, 'Well, how's next Friday for you? Is that a good day to get excommunicated? Like, yeah, the Friday works for me. It was just it was a very surreal conversation. So, Friday, December 5th at 10:00 a.m. And so, then I he handd delivered a letter uh the Monday before and said, 'Oh, and that's the one you asked me to bring. It's not it's not a big deal. I mean, it just says you could come, but I was glad.'"

"Yeah. Read the letter if it's okay. Okay. Wait. Do you in your third meeting? I'm sorry I lost track. In your third meeting,..."

"...you lost your temper. Recommend in your second meeting. Yeah. He asked you to take it down. You said no."

"Yeah. So the third meeting was just kind of give me one more chance before scheduling the council. Okay."

"The membership council. So the third meeting it was like, 'Will you take it down?' I was like, 'I can't. No, I'm not going to.' Did he ever try and like..."

"...give you reason like with evidence..."

"...give you reason for why your position was misguided. Does that make sense?"

"Yeah. No, it had nothing to do with that."

"He refused to..."

"...not ref he just he wasn't concerned. Yeah. He didn't I mean he let me talk. I told him lots of this and so and I I know that he found some of it compelling because he said, 'Well, I bet the truth is somewhere in the middle, you know, of your story and their story. That's fine.' But he did keep his promise. So, by the time of our third visit, he had watched the movie. He said, 'I watched all 2 hours and 13 minutes was cute.'"

"But he didn't try and..."

"...they're they're never going to be able to discuss..."

"...the issues like someone like with you or me. They'll never be able to do that."

"Didn't enter. The truth is they're advised not to they're advised to go into that conversation with a apostate say we're not going to discuss the issues."

"Oh, interesting."

"They're going to say it's it's about are you aligning with the brethren or not? That's it."

"Well, then he was extra generous. It's not about truth."

"Yeah. He was extra generous because..."

"...he didn't..."

"...he let me say everything I wanted to do. He never cut me off."

"He didn't engage in the evidence."

"No. Correct. And and but but at least he was forthcoming. Like that was from the get-go. He said that's not what it's about."

"Yeah. It's not about the evidence. It's about following the brother."

"It was like appalling, but at least it was truthful, right? You know, he didn't ever try to pretend like it was or that."

"And so anyway, so that third meeting, yeah, it was that that was that. And he said, 'Well, there'll be a membership council and you'll get a letter.' So he handd delivered the letter and and he knew he knew that I wanted the full high council, you know, the six and the six like it's laid out. And so..."

"...and apparently you're allowed to request it."

"Yes. And he said he would request it, but I could tell on the third meeting, I don't think I'm incorrect that I don't think he ever did request it because he knew very well that they would not approve it and I knew very well they would not approve it. So that's fine. It wasn't that big a deal that he didn't request it. It's okay. um because yeah, they wouldn't have approved it anyway. But,..."

"...and by the way, just for those who want to know, I I'm pretty sure the reason why they do that is..."

"...every time there's an apostasy trial and they bring someone like me or Jeremy Reynolds or Bill Real or you or Natasha or whoever to to plead their case, they're basically taking the 15 top leaders, 15 of the top leaders of an entire stake and potentially infecting them not just with evidence but with often times a really credible, thoughtful person, heart, voice. And I think they decided, we're going to throw into the garbage the parts of the Doctrine and Covenants, which is canonized scripture that require that all 15 people be present. We're going to throw that in the garbage because we're concerned about tainting or infecting our top leaders in our wards and stakes with the truth or with..."

"...really credible spokespeople. Right."

"And that may be, but I will be on record as saying I do not impute motive. I don't know why they don't do that anymore. It could be convenience. It could be anything. But you may be right. I'm not going to ever say this is why they do what they do. I don't know why it is."

"Yeah. Well, it's very dangerous. I'll just say it's very dangerous."

"It could be. So, the letter though, I was very happy to see that I could bring people. So, I didn't know if that would be the case. I just thought it would be the stake presidency and me and my husband, frankly. So, it was cool to find out that all these other people could be there. So my bishop was allowed to be there. My relief society president was allowed to be there. And then it said that let's see how it's exactly worded. You may also invite such persons to speak to the council in your behalf if approved in advance by the state president."

"So that was cool. So I invited four people. One of them couldn't come, but three people were there for me."

"You're allowed to call witnesses."

"Yeah. Just to speak on your behalf to explain the case a little better. Mhm. Sure. And one of them one of them was on the high council. So that was so I had at least one high council member there for me. Yeah. He's a good guy. And he and the state president have talked since then and just been straight about it's okay whatever you believe."

"Um..."

"because he was very bold. He was super cool. He was very bold. He was like, 'Look, I agree with her and I don't think it's right that she be excommunicated, but so if you have to, you know, remove me from the high council, that's okay.' So um..."

"that's wild. And hopefully, you know, hopefully he won't get pressured to do that to this guy. I'm not naming him. He does he's not open. I mean, he doesn't have a website, you know, he doesn't have anything. So, he's just a good guy who believes Joseph. So, the stake president, he and the stake president have recently talked and they're cool with that. So, you know, as long as he doesn't have billboards."

"So, anyway, um..."

"or a YouTube channel."

"Or a YouTube channel. So, you know, be respectful and da da da da and that that's really it. It it didn't say too much more. You know, we're we hope you feel our love and it no one's going to believe me. Like, no one's going to believe me, but I was perfectly fine with how I was treated the entire time. And I actually said that at my council. I said I have no complaints about how how I've been treated, which sounds crazy because they kicked me out of the church. But as far as how I was treated and listened to and respected during our meetings, zero complaints..."

"...by your stake president..."

"...and and at the council by the whole stake presidency. They were awesome. So they..."

"...used to be that bishops and the bishop excommunicated women because they didn't have the priesthood and so women weren't even important enough to get uh the attention of the state president. So that's actually different..."

"...in my experience that your state presidency was even involved because you're a woman."

"That's interesting. Well, I didn't know that."

"Yeah. Bishop bricks excommunicated women."

"State presidencies excommunicated mechistic priesthood holders historically in my experience. Anyway,..."

"Okay. [laughter] So, here's the deal. We it was scheduled for 10 o'clock and I had invited these three friends and so we all got there at 10:00 and we were like, 'Hey, in an hour when this is over, we'll go out for brunch.' You know,..."

"who was..."

"...me and my the friends that came on my behalf? So, the three of them plus my husband and me."

"Was it a Sunday?"

"Mm- It was Friday."

"Friday night."

"Friday morning at 10."

"Friday morning."

"Yeah."

"Okay. Weird."

"So, these guys are taking off work. So, um I hope people will watch my video, the last video I did, um about this because I explained it in detail. They were these are not men that simply want to that that are looking to get people out of the church that they don't agree with. Um if it was that..."

"...they have marching orders, they have marching orders. Well, it was but but I'll tell you the rest and you can decide if you really think that that's the only reason. You know, they really tried to do what they thought was best. I am convinced of that. I don't agree. I don't think it was best, but they thought it was best. And if you are doing something because you sincerely think it's the right thing to do, I just know God takes that into consideration. And that's the impression I had. And I'll tell you why. It was not an hour. This was a Friday morning. They're all missing work. It was 4 and a half hours."

"That's That's longer than I would have guessed. That's a long time."

"A lot longer than any of us. So, we thought we were going to go there for an hour. They it just a formality, you know, we already know. And and goodbye. And we'd all the the few of us would go to brunch at 11:00. That's not what happened. Because if it was a foregone conclusion, a kangaroo court..."

"...should have been an hour."

"It would have been an hour or two at the most."

"That's what I think. That's what I really think."

"Unless they know that and then made it longer. But you know,..."

"...you don't do that to yourself. That's really messed. They came fasting. They were fasting when they came like this is they were trying. And you know, like you say, so many people have steeped in in this idea that whatever the president says, you just can't say anything. You can't stray from anything the church says, right? And if you if that's what you believe, that's what you believe. So they were very they act they behaved very well under that assumption. Okay, that's all I can explain it. So..."

"So [clears throat] what? So you you arrive with your three witnesses? Is your spouse with you?"

"Yeah. So it's you and your husband and three witnesses..."

"...in what happens? and the bishop and the relief society president."

"Okay."

"They were allowed to be there, too."

"Did they make you sign something at the beginning saying you would not record?"

"Yep. So, we all had to put our phones into the clerk's office and lock them in there during it. That's fine."

"So, you locked your phones in the clerk's office and you signed a legal document promising."

"I get It didn't seem like a legal document. It was written. It had typos and it wasn't written very well. So, I was like, I don't even know what it is. I just glanced over it. Whatever."

"But, it's a document, I'm pretty sure, saying you promised not to record."

"Yeah. something. I It was long and I skimmed it and I signed it and I put my phone in the office. It's all good."

"Okay. Okay."

"So So I was allowed to have I was allowed to speak for 20 minutes which was longer than I thought I would have."

"Did he start by laying out the charges or whatever? Like hello, welcome everyone. And is everyone in the room? Are your witnesses all in the room or were they invited in..."

"separately?"

"Was your husband in the room with you?"

"Yes. So who was there the whole time? was the stake presidency, a clerk, my bishop, Relief Society president, and me and my husband. We were always there, and then they had one couple come in and testify, and then they were excused, and the other guy,..."

"...no, no, no, no."

"...for you?"

"Yeah, my friend."

"By the way, this is the first time I've ever heard of a Relief Study president being included. So, that's new."

"This is great..."

"...for in my opinion."

"Yeah."

"Yeah. In my experience, I've never heard of that before."

"Good job, church. at least have one other woman there."

"Yeah."

"I mean that's..."

"...and the attention of the state presency like you said that's cool too."

"Yeah. Yeah."

"So..."

"Okay. So you..."

"Okay. So that's who is there and then they brought in you know two of the friends um a couple at once and they you know their message was look she doesn't shove this down anyone's throat. She just presents it and says here's documents if you want to see them see them. And one of the counselors was like okay so not combative at all. And they're like not even a little."

"This is one of your witnesses. Mhm."

"Did he start by laying out the charges and the evidence against you?"

"Yeah. Every time."

"So, don't skip that. Can you go over that?"

"As best as I can recall, but [clears throat] he and that's what took some of the time was this housekeeping stuff cuz when we were in there, he starts out like, I want to explain what this is about and what it's not about, right?"

"What was that?"

"It's about whether it aligns with the church's current position on this issue. It's not about is she correct or is and it's it's funny when they say that because I'm like I'm not even in my book and presentation. I'm not even saying I'm correct. I'm saying here's documents. That's it. So, oh my goodness, it just cracks me up. I'm like I'm not even I don't even have a premise exactly other than to say can we look at these documents and consider that Joseph may have been [clears throat] telling the truth. It's not even anyway."

"So you even said like asserted publicly Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy."

"I don't say that in the movie. I don't say that."

"You just say look at the evidence."

"Have you ever said your review of the evidence leads you to the conclusion that Joseph never practiced polygamy?"

"Something like that. Let me I mean it's right here in the intro. This is um the book is almost verbatim the movie. It's a little truncated. The movie's fuller and has more examples of things, but it says um okay, the purpose of let me just read it. The purpose of this presentation is to increase faith and understanding among members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and those of other faiths by sharing information about Joseph Smith and his alleged practice of polygamy. Erroneous ideas about this topic have caused confusion among members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and created stumbling blocks for friends of other faiths for decades. Some have understood that polygamy only began in the west. Da da da da. Early church leaders taught that..."

Polygamy was necessary for exaltation. And so, the unspoken dread of future polygamy is really troubling. Essentially, while most of us, including busy church leaders, have typically gotten our history filtered through professional researchers, we can now—I had to say researchers and not historians because Brian Hales is technically not a historian. That's why that's in there. Filtered through professional researchers, we can now examine thousands of original and contemporaneous documents, meaning documents created during Joseph's lifetime, for ourselves. Thanks in large part to the Joseph Smith Papers Project.

These documents demonstrate that Joseph Smith consistently opposed polygamy as an abomination, that he denied ever having taught or practiced it, and that, contrary to the narrative perpetuated by well-meaning historians, Joseph was in fact telling the truth. So, the documents demonstrate that is my premise. Okay. So, that's it.

"You've been so careful."

"I've tried to be very careful. Thank you. Thank you." [laughter] "I appreciate that. Like, thank you for saying that because I tried."

"And also, your heart is in trying to strengthen faith."

"Yes."

"You're trying to strengthen faith and build, build the church, not tear down or destroy it."

"There's an old Milton Freeman video where he's trying to help a lady understand, um, she has a wrong position and he's trying to help her understand it better. And at one point, he says, 'I'm on your side, but you're not.'"

"And we have laughed at that so many times."

"Oh, yeah."

"That's a great quote."

"It is a great quote and it's just like, if they could understand, but, uh, it's okay. Anyway, all right. So, be that as it may. So..."

"So, he accuses you of, of basically not being on the side of the brethren."

"Yeah, I think part of it was like discrediting. Oh, here's something that I did not mention on my video and I really, I probably should have thrown this in. One of their complaints was that it was causing division. And I'm like, truth does that. You know what I mean? Like Christ says, 'I came with a sword.' I mean, that is what truth does. So I was like, you can't put that on me. I beg. They are so sick. My listeners are so sick of me begging them, please share it nicely. Please don't be in anyone's faces. Please be kind. If someone's not interested, please crank it back and lay off. You know, so I have begged people to, to be kind about sharing this, but people will be people and some people are very vocal but, you know, grumpy about it, right? In both directions. And so they said, they told me, and I was glad he repeated it in my counsel to everybody, that in some wards, not in our stake, but in some wards, there had been reports that there had been fighting about this subject to the point of fisticuffs. He used that word. I was like, someone hit somebody. He said, 'Not in our stake.' So I guess in some ward, they were so angry about this as somebody hit somebody. Now, I don't know who hit who."

"Or like, start fistfights can mean starting to get to that point."

"Well, that's why I clarified and apparently it was a yes. And so it was like, are you serious? Someone hit someone. And so, um..."

"But you're right. Maybe not technically. I, I don't have an answer for that, but they were that close to fighting, I guess. And I don't know who was attacking whom or if it was mutual or whatever, but that is, I will say that that's the thing that breaks my heart more than anything is if I find out that, um, someone in my camp is, you know, being very rude about it or, you know, kind of weaponizing my work to say, 'You should care about this and don't you know, and you're a sheeple and you have your head in the sand.' This kind of thing. Oh, that just, that one will get to me. That one will make me sad. That's the only aspect of this that actually makes me sad. The rest of it, I don't care. You take it or leave it. It doesn't bother me. Kick me out. Whatever you need to do. I'm unbothered, but that's the only thing. So, okay. So..."

"So, the charges were teaching something different than what the brethren are teaching currently, causing tension in wards..."

"Any other?"

"...and they laid it out specifically how I was promoting it, which is the video, the website that points to the video, and then billboards. And I think they, he, 'cause I, after our first visit, I thought, 'He's going to flip out when he knows that I have billboards,' you know? But it turned out he already knew. So they had already discussed that they, they were well aware. So he's like, 'You have billboards, you have bumper stickers, you have t-shirts.' I was like, 'I do.' So again, but, and people, I've had people say like, 'Well, couldn't you like just kind of not do all that?' So I'm like, 'That's not the point. If it's not important, let me shut up about it. If it's important, I'm going to use every avenue at my disposal, of course.'"

"Yeah."

"And so if I think it's important, that's what I'm doing. So yes, every way I can. All right. So they listed all that and it was just this, and it was this housekeeping thing, you know."

"And also for not stopping when you were asked. I'm sure they listen."

"Correct. Correct. Yes. Repeated. That's one of the specific is repeatedly promoting it when asked to stop. Yes."

"Yeah. That's part of the definition of apostasy."

"You're right. Good memory. So that was repeated every time. So it was repeated and then when they brought my two friends in, at first he repeated all that again."

"What do you mean?"

"So it was..."

"He said that in for each witness."

"Uhhuh."

"And it was like, couldn't we like gather together and do this once? So whatever reason they did that. So he repeated it for when the friends came in and then they were excused to go home and the other friend was brought in and repeated it all again and then he was excused to go home and then we, um, yeah. And at the first..."

"Did they ever give you a written version of the charges?"

"That's a good question. I don't think so."

"They don't want to. Isn't that wild that they'll read it a gazillion times?"

"Hold on. Now, that might not be all right. Let me look. I have the official. Well, let me finish the story. Okay. So, so after everyone has testified, you know, I've been allowed to speak for for 20 minutes or whatever it was and he got comments from my bishop and Relief Society president who were just like, 'Do you have to do this? Can't, now that you've got the ball rolling, can't you just set it aside and just stay in the ward because, you know, we need you?' And my relief president is so sweet. She's like, 'I need you as a ministering sister.' And I said, 'You know what? I'm right here.' [laughter] 'If someone needs help, you tell me and I will help them. I don't need a piece of paper. I don't need a ministering assignment. Just let me know. I'm not going anywhere.' So, I tried to assure them that nothing changes. It's all good. So, anyway, everybody speaks. Everybody's done. And so, then they're..."

"Do you want to read your letter? What you read?"

"Yeah. Yeah. Let me read a little bit of it. I want to read the whole thing."

"Okay. Whatever."

"Do you want me to read the whole thing? I mean, I sure wouldn't mind."

"I think you should."

"Okay. So this is what you read for your testimony."

"And I won't read it. I took longer than this because I expounded a little bit when I found out I had 20 minutes. So I'm not going to take 20 minutes. So I will, and you know what? I, I've said most of this, right?"

"But I would love you to..."

"Okay."

"...deliver the emotional impact of..."

"Oh, you're sweet. Okay."

"All right. In our first meeting, President Blank told me..."

"Who's it addressed to?"

"Um..."

"Is there like, two..."

"Everybody there? There's nothing on there like, 'Dear President,' or whatever."

"No, I just brought this with me. Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't officially delivered to them."

"Okay. In our first meeting..."

"Um, yes, so I'm saying this at my council. This is what I was, when it was my turn to speak. Said, 'In our first meeting, President Blank told me that he knew that I had a testimony of God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, as well as a testimony of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the restoration. I was so glad that he knew that about me, but it was also very surreal that someone like that could be excommunicated. But I do love truth. Jesus said, "I am the truth." I believe it's one of His titles. I've been told that this isn't about figuring out what's true or not true, but about whether what I'm proclaiming aligns with current church teachings as found in the online Gospel Topics essays and other places. It astonishes me that anything, least of all ever-changing historical essays written by very fallible scholars, would ever be praised more highly than the truth. But here we are. President Nelson wisely noted that good inspiration is based on good information. The church historians are not providing good information. Who will? Shall we wait for them to correct themselves? The church relies most heavily on Brian Hales's work. Yet, he's not a trained historian, but a retired anesthesiologist. His work is atrocious. I've been asked to quit speaking about this and to be patient. Things don't change merely because time passes. Things change because of what is done during that time. The church leaders don't have a crystal ball. They've made that clear. Elder Ballard said, "When the church leaders have a question, they turn to experts. Except sometimes the experts are wrong." Lester Bush was not a historian, but he could read. He saw that the historical record did not match what was being taught by the church historians concerning the, uh, racial priesthood ban. Some of the apostles opposed him. His article that he wrote helped bring about the lifting of the priesthood ban.' And I expounded a little on that. 'President Kimball's son, Edward, was convinced that Lester Bush's article about how Joseph had not, um, had [clears throat] ordained men to the priesthood and the ban did not start with him, that that was helpful in moving the needle and helping President Kimball have the courage to to lift that.'"

"That's a fascinating parallel, by the way."

"It is. Exactly a parallel."

"Because it's something we just assume Joseph did, but really it was Brigham."

"Forever, for a hundred and whatever years. It's like we're doing it again. Okay. Okay."

"Lester Bush was silenced, by the way."

"Um, yeah, he was quietly dysfellowshipped. I don't know if you know that, but his wife found that out."

"And, um, they didn't even know."

"Yeah."

"All right. I hope this information will filter up to the church leaders in the same way. But that will not happen if those of us who have studied this topic shut our mouths and keep the information to ourselves. I spent years gathering this information and another year turning it into a concise video and some months turning that into a book that I could send to church leaders. I sent one to each apostle. I heard nothing back. I was provided a miraculous opportunity to give one to Elder Carpenter when he visited our stake and gave him my contact info at his request. I heard nothing back. I talked to the previous stake president. I talked to the previous bishop. I've gone through all the proper channels with zero response until October 12th, when I met with President Blank, who kindly asked me to stop promoting this information and wait for the church leaders to speak on this, even if it takes decades. To me, that sounds like the head saying to the feet, 'I have no need of thee.' I think it's interesting that we are often told that we can only receive limited revelation for our lives, where to work, who to marry, etc. I don't see any such restrictions in the scriptures, and I quoted the scriptures that I read earlier that I quoted earlier to you, John, um, Moroni 10, Alma 12, Alma 26, through Nephi 26, which says you can know the truth of all things. The incredible irony of this situation, however, is that I'm not claiming to have received new revelation. I'm not Hyrum Page claiming to be receiving revelation for the church through a seer stone. 90% of my movie comes straight from the JSP, the Joseph Smith Papers Project, a project funded by the church as part of an effort to be more transparent. That was literally their stated goal, to be transparent and make the history more accessible. So, I take that history and highlight it, and suddenly I'm accused of promoting ideas that go against church teachings. What's even worse is that a lot of prominent church members are starting to be public about their take on polygamy, which is that it was never commanded by God, but that Joseph and Brigham were both wrong to do it. These are people like Patrick Mason, who holds one of the most prestigious positions among church historians, the Leonard Arrington Chair of Mormon History, and Carol Lynn Pearson, who has been a beloved LDS author for decades and who is mentioned in the Gospel Library app dozens of times. This destructive narrative will surely lead many more people out of the church. We need the true history now more than ever. Not only that, but being told that I can only believe these things privately goes completely against Christ's teachings in Doctrine and Covenants 123, that we should 'waste and wear out our lives bringing hidden things of darkness to light wherein we know them.' Something the historians are paid to do, I might add, but at which they are failing miserably. I certainly never anticipated spending these years of my life correcting historical inaccuracies about polygamy. It's a ton of work and I'd love nothing more than to do something else with my time. I could simply be grateful that I now know that Joseph and Emma, that I now know what Joseph and Emma really taught, that the specter of polygamy has ceased to haunt my marriage, that my testimony of a truly unchanging God has been cemented and my faith in Christ bolstered. I could keep that to myself and enjoy my newfound peace. But if I did that, I would be a hearer of the word only and not a doer. Exactly what Christ warned against. In Luke 8, he teaches that 'no man when he hath lighted a candle covereth it with a vessel or putteth it under a bed, but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter may see the light.' One of the most interesting things I noticed is that in Matthew 16, the risen Lord first shows himself to Mary and a few other women and sends them to tell the apostles, but the apostles don't believe them. And when Christ later appears to them, he chasens them for not believing the women. It's an incredible message. I would like to end my remarks with counsel from President Nelson. 'We need women who know how to make important things happen by their faith and who are courageous defenders of morality, of morality and families in a sinful world. My dear sisters, whatever your calling, whatever your circumstances, we need your impressions, your insights, and your inspiration. We need you to speak up and speak out. We need women who have a bedrock understanding of the doctrine of Christ and who will use that understanding to teach and help raise a sin-resistant generation. We need women who can detect deception in all of its forms. Sisters, please never underestimate the extraordinary power within you to influence others for good. It is a gift with which our Heavenly Father has endowed every covenant woman. And as a covenant daughter of God, you have receptivity to the spirit and an enhanced moral compass that give you the capacity to receive personal revelation and to discern truth from error. Sisters, we need your voices teaching the doctrine of Christ. We need your ability as women to detect deception and to articulate truth. We need your inspired wisdom in your family, ward, and stake councils, as well as in other places of influence throughout the world.' This is precisely what I'm trying to do."

"So beautiful, so powerful."

"Thank you. You come across as pure in heart."

"Thank you, John. I appreciate that very much. I really appreciate that. Um, I have total peace. I'm so, I'm fine. Um, we were all excused and they said they would deliberate. So, the three stake presidency members deliberated and again, we thought they'd be out in five or 10 minutes and they were in there for a good half hour, maybe 40 minutes. It was a long time."

"Again, that shows me that they're struggling, that they're thinking, that they're trying to do what's right, and they're pulled in two different directions, of course. So we're called back in, me and my husband and the bishop and the relief society president [snorts], and they expressed their love and but said that they had unanimously decided to withdraw my membership and I was 100% fine and I saw the bishop get misty and I saw the Relief Society president get teary and I was like, 'It's okay. It's my life doesn't change.'"

"You're reassuring them."

"I'm reassuring them. It was so funny. Later, my husband later, he said it felt like a funeral. He's all for not just the obvious reason that you're getting cut off, but he's like, 'I'm in my suit on a weekday.' Um, we did go out to eat after, you know, he just said it, it just kind of the whole thing just felt like a funeral. And I said, 'That is so interesting because I imagine at a funeral that the deceased person is probably the only one running around going, "It's okay, everyone. It's okay,"' while everybody else is teary. So, it was a very cool experience. I'm, I didn't anticipate being devastated by it and I wasn't. So, I'm very glad about that. And I just feel like I've had Heavenly Father with me the whole time. And, um, you know, 'I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.' I, I've lived it. You know, it's, it's been a very cool experience to go through."

"So you didn't feel devastated or betrayed or any of that stuff?"

"No. I really..."

"You've been abused?"

"No. No. And maybe by some faceless people. I just think there's a lot of confusion. You know, you don't, anybody can rise up in the ranks of this church, right? And at no point do you do you get told all the real, you don't get pulled aside and told all the real history. I mean, I guess I can't, you know, I don't know that for myself, but I just don't think that's how it works. I think everyone takes their misconceptions up through the ranks with them. And so in the same way that a bishop could, you know, be convinced that you can't know anything if the prophet doesn't know it, no one can know it, right? I think that can go up all the way to the top, I guess. So I, I don't have animosity. I don't, I just don't. And I have total forgiveness. And 'they know not what they do.' It's really okay. So I'm, I'm good. I'm still going. I love my wards so much. They've been extremely kind. And I'm going to throw this in there. I have it easy. I have a tiny, tiny family. I don't have siblings getting on the family chat, she's ripping the family apart, she's, you know, none of this that I know some people get. I don't have any of that. I don't have any siblings pushing back on me. I only have one sibling and two half-siblings and they're fine. And my mom's fine. And my friends are fine. It's, it's okay. My children are fine. And they're grown, they get it. We've always learned together. It's just, it's okay. So, I'm not experiencing that. And I have utter sympathy for people whose families turn against them when they do something like this. And I'm really blessed to not have that challenge. So, I appreciate it. Um, how's your husband?"

"If you want to share in terms of how he felt. Like Margie attended my communication and she is not like an rowdy, cankerous person. She resigned the next day just because she experienced the disciplinary council excommunication process as being kind of psychologically and emotionally violent and abusive. How, how did your husband experience the disciplinary council and the verdict, if you want to share?"

"He, his remarks, I wish I had them. Um, he did so good. He was firmer with them, you know, and he really wanted them to realize that they're making this decision and they cannot undo it. You know, you're excommunicated at the stake level, but you cannot be reinstated at the stake level. That has to come from the First Presidency. So he just wanted to reiterate that this is their decision, you know. So he was more firm and he said other things that were just, you know, they, they were like, you know, 'We can't know everything in this life and sometimes we just have to be patient.' And he sort of reprimanded them all for that. There was a couple of people that said that. So he addressed each of them individually and you could tell the spirit was with him because he methodically remembered what they had said and took it apart. Said, 'You know, we're, we're told, "Ask and you shall receive." And this whole church was founded on a question. So, no, you don't always have to wait till the next life. He is so eager to answer our questions, but if we don't ask them, we won't get the answers.' He did so good. But no, he has, he's, I can see he's forgiven them, too. There's no animosity. He's, we're fine."

"I have to say, before I forget, it is such a good point. Patrick Mason on this very podcast said that to him, polygamy looks a lot like sin. So I guess he's different than you. He's not claiming that Joseph didn't practice polygamy. He's claiming that Joseph Smith's polygamy was [snorts] was a sin."

"Yeah. Yes. So I don't know if you know, but Faith Matters a few weeks ago did a whole week on polygamy."

"Yeah, I watched it all. I did too. Yeah."

"And it was like, and it was, you can imagine, it was just so frustrating for me. There's Patrick Mason, there's Carolyn Pearson, there's Bill Turnbull, there's Bethany Spalding, all saying this was not of God. Joseph was wrong to do it. Brigham was wrong to do it."

"And somehow..."

"Did they say it that explicitly?"

"Yeah, it was. I mean, I, I guess I'm not going to say yes because, but you go listen to it and you tell me if that's not what they said. They're just like, and Patrick has has openly wished for us to excise it from our scriptures, for instance, because he's like, 'As long as it's still canonized, it's still a bad thing.'"

"And there was a whole discussion about can, should, and C&C 132 be removed."

"Yes."

"From the DNC."

"And Bill Turnbull, bless his heart, he read an article about an an alternate interpretation for Jacob 2:30, the supposed loophole. And you can tell Bill doesn't believe that's a loophole any longer. So, like, I love that. But that it's okay to say Joseph wasn't wrong and Brigham was wrong, and somehow it's not okay to say Brigham was wrong, but Joseph didn't do it."

"It is surreal and it just, it's a little mind-boggling, but that's okay. Weird."

"It's weird. So, I'm like, if this, if that narrative that they were both wrong, that it never came from God, but Joseph did all this behind on his back and it wasn't even from God. If that starts taking hold, people will be elbowing each other for the exit door in my mind. I mean, that's not gonna fly. That's not cool."

"If the narrative that Joseph was doing all that behind him is back without even God's sanction..."

"That he was wrong."

"...they're going to be like beating a path to the exit, right? That's not cool. So, I'm like, you need this narrative. You need this real one to come out and combat that. And it's right here."

"You're pretty much admitting that you can't believe Joseph Smith was a polygamist per the current prevailing narrative and still believe the church is true. You're pretty much acknowledging."

"I don't know what I mean by 'I.' So, I, I stopped long ago saying, 'Quote, "I know the church is true." Quote.' Because that's like saying, a friend of mine said, that's like saying, 'I know this pencil is true.' I don't know what that means."

"Like, I don't know what that means. I, I, I've never meant, I think every single thing that's taught in this church is correct. I've never meant that. Um, I can believe, I can believe that God still has a work to do through this organization. But it requires, I mean, an organization has to repent just like people, individuals repent, right? If we can, you know, finally, we got rid of the blacks in the priesthood, you know, the, the ban, and finally a couple years ago, they sneaked that little book into *Daughters of Utah Pioneers* that says, 'Oh, by the way, it wasn't even from Joseph or God. It was all Brigham, right?' That's in there now. And people still don't know that. But the church has quietly admitted, acknowledged that it came from Brigham. So, I'm like, we are repenting of stuff. If we can get this one out, I, I mean, maybe God still can work through this church. I don't know. But all I'm saying is let's just go with the truth. Let the chips fall where they may. In fact, that's that's right here at the beginning of the book. It says, um, Oh, shoot. Sorry. Of course, not this copy. Oh, there it is. Oh, darn it, John. Um, 'If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed. If we don't have the truth, it ought to be harmed.' That's J. Reuben Clark. Okay, that that is what we should live by. It's okay to examine it. So anyway, this is a bone. I, you know, here I am thinking I'm throwing them a bone. Like, here's a 'get out of polygamy free' card for you guys. We can change the narrative, fix this, and they double down, you know. Dang it."

"Yeah, it's so weird. And really, I, I'm guessing that. So how do we explain Carolyn Pearson and Patrick Mason not being excommunicated, but you being excommunicated? I think part of it is effectiveness. I don't think Carolyn Pearson's book reached the level of impact that you and your billboard and Michelle Stone did. And so the most members, not near the number of members, have know about and have read Carolyn Pearson's book as have been influenced by you and Michelle Stone and others."

"You think for sure."

"Yeah. Yeah. Carolyn Pearson's book is a niche book for liberal progressive Mormons and I think it's, yeah. There's no way it's come anywhere near the views, the total views and total subscribers of your combined channels, you and Michelle Stone, and this other guy."

"I don't know if that's true. Maybe."

"I think it's true. And then, and Patrick Mason, too, his shtick isn't..."

"Denying Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy. And his one little obscure comment on Mormon Stories isn't going to get him in trouble because that's not what's influencing people to to stop believing the brethren, right?"

"It's you and Michelle."

"He said that elsewhere, by the way. He said on several, several interviews that he's been on and it's just amazing to me. I mean, he was on Michelle's show, you know. So..."

"Wait, Patrick Mason, 132 Problems?"

"He sure did. So did. And you, and he was, he was fine. But, and, and on that episode..."

"He's one of the ones that said, 'I have not looked into the PMI documents myself, but I trust the others.' And they just keep saying it. They just keep saying it. Brian Hales has [clears throat] looked into them."

"And he was on her show. I think you know that that Brian Hales was on because she wanted him on so that they could talk about these documents. How does Hyrum's statement just weeks before his death, you know, how do you reconcile that with the story that he was converted to it a year or two before? So, she wanted to talk about the documents and all he did was come on with a presentation about how she's on the road to apostasy. It was the least scholarly thing you could possibly do. It was atrocious."

"Okay."

"Well, it's the church of 'follow the brethren' in 2025. The LDS Church is the church of 'follow the brethren.' It is."

"I don't want it to be, you know. I really don't want it to be. I want it, and I guess individually we can make it that way or we cannot. Right? I spent my whole life telling people that this is not a cult. You know, and all of a sudden these people come out of the woodwork and it's like, 'Oh, you're turning it into a cult.' You know, if you're like, 'Well, whatever they say, like whatever they say, that's what I'm going to do.' I, I, my son has a friend that said he would lay down in traffic if they told him to. I was like, 'Okay, well, congratulations. You are in a cult.' I'm not..."

"I mean, you know what I mean? Mentally, I was not in a cult because I just was like, 'Let me weigh it for myself whenever I can.' So, as soon as the documents came out, I was like, 'Done.'"

"Regardless of what the church narrative is. So, you can make it a cult or you cannot, but you can definitely stay in without partaking of the cultish nature. And I don't, I, I know people disagree. You know, there's a lot of people that be like, 'It's totally a cult.' I just don't think it is unless you make it that way. So, I'm, I'm not." [laughter]

"Yeah."

"Oh. Um, and people get a kick out of this because I was excommunicated on Friday and Saturday morning I clean the church and Saturday afternoon I have, I help somebody move. Now, that, that's the real litmus test, John. Am I right? I'm still Mormon. Would you agree?"

"Yep. That's it."

"Okay. Just [laughter] just to clarify. And RFM, that little pill, he called me a doormat for still cleaning the church. Right. Thank you for that look. It's like, dude, did you let them take away your humanity? Like, if I don't clean it, someone else has to. That's just the way it is. So, of course, I'm going to clean it. And I don't mind. And it's fun to be with the people. No. And he, you know what I say? He called me that. He kind of said it under his breath."

"He just said it because Rebecca, Rebecca Bibliotech, you know, they were talking about this for like nine minutes the other day and she mentioned that she, because she thought it was funny and he just kind of mumbled, 'doormat.' And I was like, 'Oh, like don't let him take away your kindness or humanity.' You know, that's your choice."

"As someone who's been excommunicated, which RFM hasn't, that takes a particular level of..."

"Strength and courage and resilience to go clean the chapel the same week you've been excommunicated. That's admirable. Really?"

"Well, I don't say that for that reason. I'm just saying I think it's funny. Well, you're sweet. I just clean it because it, you know, that's, they have the members clean it and it was my turn. I, I just can't get over that God has that sense of humor, right? I didn't, those didn't, I had been on the schedule to do that already and he just knew it would fall the day after. I just think it's hilarious. He's awesome."

"You don't have to answer this, but someone's asking if you're going to keep paying tithing."

"I'm not allowed to."

"That's right. They say you can. And you can't wear your garments either."

"Hold on. [laughter] I was..."

"You also can't wear your garments. They tell you that."

"Yes. And the day someone dictates to me what underwear."

"Yeah."

"It's all good. I'm like, you know what?"

"And [clears throat] yeah, I gave a, I talked about, I hear what you..."

"I talked about this the other day at a, I gave a little speech or something, but these sweet friends held like a funeral for me the other day. It was super funny. We actually had like 150 people there. And so we all gathered together and I spoke and at some point, you know, I described, I said, 'Well, I got the letter, you know, I got the email telling me I'm officially excommunicated and telling me what I can and can't do.' [laughter] And I kind of giggled and they busted up. They just thought that was so funny because it is absurd to tell you what you can and can't do, you know, and as far as underwear or paying, it's nobody has this kind of power. I'm going to tell you one thing real quick that I didn't want to leave out. I forgot. One of the counselors after they came in, gave the verdict at that point, one of the counselors, um, was in tears, just crying, had his glasses off, wiping his face, 'cause he was absolutely in tears."

"He may have been one of the ones that made it last so long."

"That's what everyone concludes. And I can almost guarantee you that that's not the case. Oh."

"Um, but I, you know, I have no way of verifying it, but my impression is that I think that he believes that he truly believes that with the stroke of a pen, they have separated me from all of my blessings and my relationship with God."

"Eternal damnation."

"And torn my family apart. I think he really believes that, and that's why he's crying, if you see what I mean. So, I think he's the most, like, 'If the prophet doesn't say it, you can't do it,' you know? And that's where that led him was this extreme sadness and I'm like, 'It's so, I, I was like, it's okay. It's all right. I still come. Everything's fine. I love my family. We're, we're good.'"

"And you think in heaven you're going to be just fine."

"Yes. The stake president said something like, 'I'll see you in the celestial kingdom or something.' It was very sweet. Like I..."

"You said that after your excommunication."

"Mhm. And so I mean, he just said that and so I'm not going to pin him down like, 'Oh, you believe.' Maybe he, and he may be saying that thinking, 'I hope you repent someday.'"

"And come back and get rebaptized, you know."

"Really. I have to ask."

"Yeah. Before I forget, do you believe this was a local decision or do you believe the state president was basically told or influenced by area authorities, general authorities?"

"Influence for sure. Yeah. He, I was told that."

"So this was not a local decision."

"He would say, 'I'm confident that he would say it was his decision because it does, the ultimate decision.' So he would say it was. But when you use the word 'influence,' that's the perfect word because they were counseling about me before he called me in. So yes, for sure this was a big pow-wow or whatever, or a small pow-wow, you know, about this and what should we do? So it always is. Yeah. So they counseled together and concluded unanimously, you know, whatever."

"And that's on the brethren for directing these excommunications, but for trying to create the impression, the false impression, that it's always a local decision."

"It's, uh, it's, it's definitely a gray area, isn't it?"

"Yeah. Um, okay. Can I ask you a few questions before we end?"

"You can ask whatever you want. I'm not saying I'll answer anything, but..."

"Okay. So, uh, this is just kind of like a technical question, but I was trying to get a sense for when you were talking about what does it even mean to say the church is true. I want to get a sense for your testimony, your beliefs around the restoration, but specifically the authority and the exclusivity of an orthodox perspective on the LDS restoration, which is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one and only true church on the face of the earth with priesthood authority that matters in heaven. That's A. B is there are lots of different ways to heaven and to Christ. The church is one of many. Let's just say I give you option A or option B. Are you comfortable with either of those options?"

"I kind of am. I kind of will go with option B. I don't really have qualms about that. Um..."

"Christ, you know, His definition is not ours. Um, the church today, uh, teaches so many things about the church's current teachings do not match Joseph Smith's. Joseph Smith said, 'Mormonism embraces all truth, no matter whence it comes.' That was his creed. And we, we have that has morphed into, 'Mormonism has all the truth and you can come get it.' I mean, when Brad Wilcox gave that controversial fireside, uh, he's, he's given it multiple times where he was like, 'We are the only church with the whole piano. Other churches might be able to play chopsticks, but we're the only ones with the whole piano.' I mean, it was so tremendously offensive and it flew in the face of what Joseph taught, which would have been, 'Hey, you guys come and play and we'll come and play and we'll just all make beautiful music.' I mean, that's what Joseph Smith would have would have taught. And it's, it flies in the face of that whole talk that Brad Wilcox gave. I'm sorry to call him out, but it was, I was going to make a highlight reel of the things that I found problematic. And it, I went through it. It was the whole talk. That was the one where he said, you know, 'People ask, why didn't the black people get the priesthood till 1978? A better question is, why didn't anyone get it until 1830?' What? You know, it's like telling pe that's what made the news is that he made that kind of insensitive comment about the blacks in the priesthood. But there were so many other things in there that were just, he, he literally said, 'I'm glad I don't feel the spirit every day because what would that be like? You'd wake up and be like, and then you'd pour your Captain Crunch.' I was like, 'What are you talking about? Like, you're not describing the spirit in the least. It seems so harmful.' That, that blew me away. And he went out multiple times giving that fireside. That was so disturbing. That was one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen."

"Yeah. Yeah."

"So your question that was so derailed. I love to derail questions."

"You answered it."

"Did I? For sure? Okay. Okay. The next question then, um, is, uh, so you don't believe the church went into apostasy after Joseph Smith. You basically believe that prophets can lead the church astray."

"No. No. I've never said that."

"No. I wouldn't call Brigham a prophet. I, I'm happy to own that. I would not, I would not call Brigham Young a prophet. I just wouldn't. And people will get after me with that, but that's okay with me. I mean, he doesn't pass the 'know them by their fruits' test at, at all. Like, not at all."

"But..."

"So, I mean, that's a totally different narrative that..."

"The church is restored through Joseph Smith, but then it didn't have a prophet for several decades and it wasn't led by a prophet."

"Right. But what happened when, you know, when Samuel the Lamanite came and he left? What happened when they killed Abinadi? It's not like, 'Oh, there was a successor to Abinadai.' I mean, God chose Alma, you know, but meanwhile, there's a whole another church going on that Alma wasn't part of, and they finally joined up together. So, there wasn't like a line. I just, this line of succession thing, I don't see it in scripture anywhere. The notion of keys. And again, I'm okay with people, um, you know, coming at me. I don't mind because you can believe whatever you want. Just study. Just study it out and come to your conclusions. But if you have a knee-jerk reaction, she's the worst. I don't care."

"So, so then people are asking in the comments, do you believe that there was an apostasy before Joseph Smith or..."

"I do. I, I do believe that. I think, I mean, I'm okay calling it an apostasy. For sure. Joseph referred to it as a restoration, you know, and so he restored truths that had been lost and he brought forth the Book of Mormon as evidence of the fruit, you know, of that's his fruit. That's the evidence that you can see with your own eyes and examine and pray about in order to know if Joseph was a true prophet. So, I believe he was a prophet. Um, my husband likes to explain the story of Moses. Aaron and Miriam were kind of ticked off, like, 'Hey, we're prophets, too,' at one point. And the, and God made it clear that yes, there are prophets, but Moses is special because I talked to him face to face. So, he's like, 'I can make my will known to prophets, but to to Moses, I talked face to face.' And it's the exact same thing with Joseph Smith. And so when people came to Moses and said, 'There's people in the camp prophesying.' He said, 'Great.' He said, 'I wish everyone could prophesy.'"

"But I mean..."

"And I take that seriously."

"Yeah."

"Like, I really take it seriously. So yes, if you want to look at the 15 today and just look at them and look at their fruits and decide if there are prophets among them, if they all are, whatever, you decide, you know. And..."

"But, but, but by that definition, and I'm not arguing with you. I, I love..."

"We like..."

"I love expansive, inclusive theologies. So I like everything you're saying."

"I'm wondering if you've even considered the idea that there were other prophets between Jesus and Joseph Smith."

"Who knows where? I totally consider that. Like, we could completely find records. You're open to that. Yes. Totally open."

"LDS Church associated?"

"No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's what I think of when I think of an apostasy. The way the church teaches it is between the death of the Jesus's apostles and Joseph Smith, God took everything from the earth. You know what I mean?"

"Yeah. That's not a thing. I mean, even they praised Martin Luther in conference, right? They praised, um..."

"So, you don't believe in an apostasy per se?"

"It, it depends on your definition. I guess I believe. Let me just say I believe in a restoration. So, I believe Joseph restored Joseph's stuff that God lost, that was lost. Absolutely."

"But not that there was a dearth of prophets or God influencing people between..."

"Not that there couldn't have been anyone inspired by God. Yeah, I think that's over the top. I don't even know if anybody believes that, do they? I mean, I, I feel like the church maybe used to teach that in the discussions and the official, but I don't think that's in there anymore."

"Someone wants to know if you ever had sympathies or beliefs in kind of, for lack of a better term, Snufferism of of the remnant movement. Is that something you've ever identified or affiliated with?"

"No. But, but, but some of his blogs are fantastic and his insights are fantastic. So I'm not going to throw him under the bus or be like, 'I'm not a Snuffer.' I don't want to. I'm lovely people. And his, his insights are absolutely amazing. And so again, taking all the good from wherever it comes. That, that is absolutely the key. Okay."

"And speaking of keys, the Book of Mormon mentions keys one time. Do you know what it is?"

"Tell me."

"It's the keys to the treasury that Laban had. [laughter]"

"Interesting."

"Now, that's interesting to throw into the mix. Right. And I'll just leave it there. Smith mentioned keys..."

"And go read where he talked about keys and read it without the preconception and you get keys of knowledge, keys of understanding, that kind of keys. It's super interesting. So, you know, I'm not making assertions, but I'm saying there are interesting ways to see things and we don't always have to see them the way we've been taught to. We don't have to see Jacob 2:30 as a loophole just because we've been told it's a loophole. We don't have to see, um, keys as a, as we've been taught them. It, look at the scriptures and see how the scriptures talk about keys. But..."

There is authority. I am going to absolutely go on record saying there is such a thing as authority from God because Elma had it. He was, it says he was given power and authority from God. And Christ calls his apostles and gives them authority. And so, absolutely, he could set somebody apart. But why does he, does it have to do with the chain of authority? That's where I would disagree that he can choose whoever he wants.

Okay. Okay. This is kind of, uh, the one really big question that I have, and we can make it really short, but this is the one wish that I really, really had. I'm, this is going to be a critique, but this is going to be an observation that, you know, it really hit me in your story when you're like, when you're, when you're like, it, it was, it was the, it was the Joseph Smith polygamy thing that, like, really woke you up to a problem in the church. But the truth is, is that there have been lots of people who have been finding lots of problems with the church and lots of credible problems with the church for a long, long, long time. And whether that's Joseph Smith's folk magic and treasure digging, whether that's Book of Mormon historicity and anachronisms and the scientific challenges to the, or the plagiarisms in the Book of Mormon, whether it's the Book of Abraham and the false translation, whether it's the changes to the Doctrine and Covenants, whether it's the Masonic stuff that, uh, made it into the temple ceremony, uh, the racism, some people think the racism even in the Book of Mormon itself is, is a deal-killer. The, the, so, I, I could, I could list so many what I believe to be really credible challenges to the church's truth claims aside from polygamy that are almost, I don't think there's anything, maybe the only thing bigger than polygamy is the cover-up of child sex abuse. Like, if we're talking about just real damage, but like, if we're talking about the church's truthfulness, Book of, Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, changes to the Doctrine of Covenants, lots of big stuff. And every time, like, when I talk to Michelle, when I, when I talk to others who can really go deep on polygamy, they're like, "Oh, I didn't, I haven't really looked into the Book of Abraham stuff. I haven't really spent much time on the treasure digging or," and they, they, what, what a bunch of us are thinking and feeling is like, why are you stopping at polygamy? You know what I mean? There's so many other really big things. So, you don't have to even answer any of that in detail because that's not what we're here for.

Right. Right.

But you get the mega question, right? The meta question.

Absolutely I do. And I'm so glad you asked it actually, because there was something I wanted to say, and this has to do with it. Um, so, take the Book of Abraham. The re-, I think one reason that that's not on our radar as much is because there's just not as much documentation behind it. This, there's tons. This is a 50-page book, and it's show, and it's got 80 plus references at the back. I mean, there's tons of documentation on Joseph's polygamy or his monogamy, rather, that are out there. So, this deserves, you know, scrupulous study. The Book of Abraham, uh, you know, to me, there was no outright claim that this piece that we have now is exactly what was supposed to be in the, in the Doctrine of Covenants in the Pearl of Great Price. Like, it's not. We assume that, and that's okay, and I get that you could make a case that it doesn't match. That's fine with me. But some of it is your best guess. Some of it is kind of connecting dots. And again, I'm cool with wherever someone lands on that issue. But let us take off, before we look at any of these issues like the multiple accounts of the First Vision and the Book of Abraham and the changes in the Doctrine of Covenants, before we look at those, can we please take off the "Joseph was a liar" glasses that our own church gave us to wear? Does that make sense? We, that is why the polygamy issue is so important because it outright says Joseph taught all this in public and said he didn't have any wives, but he did. And he lied for his own good reasons, or because God wanted him to, or you name it, but he had reasons to lie. Brian Hail says, "These are the words of someone trying not to lie." Like, this is the story that he was lying when he said these things. Okay, it's not true. But the church gives you those, "Joseph does lie," and you put those glasses on. Now, you look at the First Vision accounts, you have a completely different impression of it. You look at the Book of Abraham, completely different impression. So, I'm totally cool examining all those thoroughly. I'm fine with wherever it is.

But you haven't yet. Is that what you're saying?

I've looked into, I, I've looked into the Book of Abraham. I'm not finding it compelling, but I will continue.

You're not finding what compelling?

That it wasn't, that it doesn't match. It was, he, he said something and it didn't.

Have you heard of Robert Riddner?

Okay. Okay. I haven't looked into it.

No, no, no.

No. But no, I don't know that name.

I don't want, I don't want to be contentious at all.

No, no, no. I, I, as you may guess, John, I can take it. I'm totally fine. But no, if there's something I could look at, I will look at it. I'm totally happy to look at it. I don't care where it leads. Again, I don't care if it turns out Joseph Smith was flawed or did lie, but he didn't lie about this. So, take those glasses off for starters, and then you can look at least objectively without already going into it going, "Well, I already know he's a liar, so let's look at what he said." Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Yes. And this will just be a, I'll just share a perspective. And another perspective is Joseph Smith claimed to be able to find buried treasure long before he ever did polygamy, before he ever came out with the Book of Mormon. He claimed to be able to find buried treasure that he never found. So, and he even ended up in court for breaking the law for for treasure digging, which was illegal.

Do you know who stood up for him in court?

Yeah, I do.

The guy that hired him.

No, I know.

Well, that does that carry, like, to me, that carries some weight. It's like, okay, that guy didn't feel defrauded, so I'm not sure we're getting the whole story. The men who brought their 12-year-old wives to Warren, sorry, the men who brought their 12-year-old daughters to Warren Jeffs.

Sure.

Would testify on Warren Jeffs' behalf in court.

Sure. But this was before, I mean, this was before any of that. This was like.

But he believed Joseph had, he believed Joseph had special powers.

Yes.

He did.

Yeah. So, so yeah, that carries a little weight with me, you know? I'm like, okay. Like, they accused him of tons of stuff and almost none of it stuck. So, the fact that people are like, "Well, they, he was in court so many times," like, so, like, I've been excommunicated. Did I do anything wrong? It's hard, you know? So, I'm like, willing to, I'm willing to say maybe he had a gift. I mean, there's such a thing as water witching. That blows my mind, you know? Today in 2025, people use water witching to find water. That's, um, extraordinary to me. I can't believe that. But so it is. So, I'm like, I'm willing to keep an open mind either way. And the reason, the reason that we don't get into these things a lot is because, what does my life on a day-to-day basis change whether, you know, whether any of these things turn out to be true or not? That doesn't change my behavior from day to day. Whereas polygamy does. I, that makes you miserable. You know, that puts a wedge in your marriage. It harms your marriage. It harms, you feel like God thinks you're a piece of property. I will give them to another. He says, supposedly, you know, it's, that's not God. So, that absolutely has bearing on my day-to-day opinion of myself, how I look at my spouse, how I look at God, his character. I can't have a correct impression of God's character thinking he's like that. So, if th-, those other things impacted my daily life in that way, you bet I'd do a movie on those. Well, I, I'll, so I love it. You've already answered the question.

I do. I, you know, I care about all this stuff too, as much as you. It's just that I care about more issues.

Yes.

So, I haven't been able to go as deep in any one of them. But I have spent 30 years really digging in. And.

I will say for sure that the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon have as many, if not more, problems than Joseph Smith's polygamy. For sure. And so, that, that's, that's just all I'll say is that for me and many, many, many, many credible people, there are several issues that are credibly at least equally as problematic as Joseph Smith's polygamy. But.

Okay.

You know, but yeah, so I want to, I want to meet.

We have to meet again and talk about those. I said, we have to meet again and talk for another freaking five hours and talk about those.

It's okay. It's okay. Like, I do want to meet the, I do want to meet the Michelle Stone or the Karen Hyatt who's listened to the entire LDS discussion series and who has considered the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham and the treasure digging stuff and other things as deeply as they have polygamy. But that might take a lifetime. I guess that's basically Senator Michelle's your girl. She's such a good researcher.

No, no, she's admitted to me she hasn't really looked into. Saying she could like assign Michelle this task when you have to fill your empty hours. Well, I think I think.

Can I say one thing?

When you, all these other things, but when you put the, um, the cover-ups of the sexual abuse.

That is huge. I, oh my goodness, I condemn that. Like, this is ridiculous. I have friends who are told, "Well, let's not ruin his life." You know, that was a long time ago. Really? You know, someone has abused someone and it comes out years later and they are like, "Well, you know, he's in good standing now," and I'm like, "That's not okay. This is not how we repent. You cannot gloss over something like that." So, that, uh, that's a whole another issue. And I am appalled. Truly appalled. That's got to be the biggest. It is. I mean, Jesus said.

Children, right?

Millstone. Something about a millstone. And it's so interesting. I, I have a friend who was like, "Well, this polygamy thing shook me up." But then when I started seeing about the, uh, sexual abuse cover-up, that's put me over. She goes, "I think I'm going to take my name off because of that." It wasn't the polygamy thing that wasn't going to make her do that. It's this. So, agreed. That's huge. So, you know, [clears throat].

I hope people are on this. I know some people are trying to.

Abuse stuff helped maybe assuage your disappointment at the excommunication?

Possibly.

No, no, they're totally separate for me. If there was child abuse in my ward, that would be a different thing, you know. Um, and I have a friend and it is, I have a friend in Missouri. They're that stake is off the rails. They have so many, um, red flags over there. I was like, "You need to move out of there." But in my ward, as I said before, I, to me, the capital C Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with a capital C is not where my loyalty is. It's in the church, the little C church, the body of Christ as Christ described it. And that is what I find in my congregation. So, that's the reason that I, I, the rest, I would happily, you know, fight against the sexual abuse cover-up and anything else, but because it has nothing to do with my ward. And so I completely support my ward, but I, I don't support all the things that are done by, you know, Curtain McConi and this kind of thing.

They're separate.

Okay. Perfect. Perfect. Beautiful. Wow. Well, can I just say you have such a good attitude about it, but I'm so sorry they did that to you.

For one, I'm so sorry.

I think you're so lovely and thoughtful and smart and evidence-based and good-hearted and pure-hearted. Like, I'm just, I'm not ending the episode yet, but I'm, I just have to say I'm so impressed and so privileged to both meet you and to be able to help you share your story. This is a real privilege for me.

John. That means a lot. That really means a lot. I just really appreciate that.

And I, I just can't thank you enough. That, that just, that just touches my heart. Thank you.

Likewise. And I felt the same way with Michelle. Um, but that also, I just want to say, like, everyone that gets excommunicated, the church doesn't really want to own up to why they're doing it. So, I was speaking out against the church's position on same-sex marriage. I was, uh, you know, supporting women maybe getting the priesthood and talking about, you know, the church hiding its history and problems with truth claims, and they wanted to make it all about some random thing I said on a podcast one time. They didn't want to own up to why they were doing it. They didn't want, they didn't want to make it look like they were silencing me. That was the big thing because they literally said, "Take the podcast down."

Or we'll excommunicate you.

And I'm like, "I can't take the podcast down." But, but in the public record, they're like, "We don't silence anyone. We're not for censorship." You know what I mean? And they wanted to say, "It's because this one thing I said about Jesus or the atonement when I was having doubts."

And but, but, but then each time they've done it.

It's like, "Okay, well, John, it's because you talked about truth claims." But then Natasha Her comes along and all she's talking about is like the way the church treats children and the abuse stuff. Well, she called them patriarchal pricks, and that's why. Okay. Well, then Sam Young. Well, no, but like, you're so whittled down in terms of their justification because you weren't even criticizing the brethren. You weren't even, you weren't even stating that you disbelieve things that are part of the Temple Recommend interview or core Mormon doctrine. You were literally just saying, "Read the, I still believe it all, really. Just read these documents and then decide for yourself what you think about polygamy," which is the doctrine that now the church basically disassociates itself from, and they still excommunicate you. So, really, all they care about is that you obey the current brethren.

That's. [laughter] It's hard to argue with that. You're like the perfect test case for that, and you agree with me.

I, I can't argue with it. Uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's very surreal. And I tell, you know, I tell people this. I mean, I'm very forthcoming, of course, and they're just always like, "What?" And it just, they're having a hard time wrapping their head around it. I mean, I saw a friend that I haven't seen in a couple years. Of course, people are seeing this who haven't seen me for a long time, and all of a sudden, my name's popping up over all over YouTube, all over Mormon circles and YouTube, right? If you tie my name into YouTube, you get a whole lot back. Um, so I, you know, had a friend, well, I'll tell you two things. On Sunday morning, I woke up to a text that says, "Well, I was scrolling through TikTok late last night and saw this Mormon content creator name you as somebody who had recently been excommunicated with another person or two." And I had to Google it to see if I heard wrong. And she said, "Thank you so much for bringing the stuff in the Joseph Smith papers forward. I didn't know about it." And she said, "Poly has always bothered me and I'm so excited to be able to get real information. I haven't been coming to church and that's one of the reasons why." And again, like this is going to help ultimately, you know, and, you know, fisticuffs notwithstanding. So, uh, another person I saw after I haven't seen her in a couple years, and I just went up, "Oh, hey." And I just gave her a hug, and she gave me this kind of extra tight hug, and I was like, "Uh, no way." And sure enough, she whispers, "I've been watching your stuff and I love it." I was like, "This is awesome." So.

You're going to get a lot more of those now, by the way. [laughter]

After, after today.

Yes. Yes. I'm aware of that. And I'll get the other side, too. And I'm totally cool with that. I get it, you know. Um, I understand. And I, I don't mind. And if someone's like, "I don't care, you know, that's bad. He, he totally did it." That's fine. Really, I'm not going to, I'm not going to pummel you and be like, "You must look at this," you know. But honestly, if you just, if you want to respond intelligently and cogently, re-, look at the documentary first, at least do that so that we've all seen the same documents, and then we can talk about it. That's all I ask.

What do you do? Do you even have a way? Do you have a way to estimate how many active faithful church members are in share your and Michelle's perspective that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy? Any way of knowing?

No, I don't know. But I do know.

5,000, 10,000.

More. Yeah.

50,000.

Okay. So, my videos got 60,000 views. And that's not always, you know, YouTube counts weird and stuff, so we can't say exactly that 60,000 people have watched, but if you go look at the comment section, it's probably 95 to 97% positive. And I get numerous emails, um, from people. "Thank you so much. You know, I, I struggled with this my whole life. I'm so grateful to be over it." And Michelle, when she was, oh my goodness, when she was doing her episodes, this sweet lady who was like 71, it's like, "I've suffered under this since I was 13." And we're just like, "Oh my gosh, 58 years of being tormented by this." So she was so grateful. So, here it is. I think a lot of it has to do with how it's presented. If you lower your voice and say, "Guess what? It turns out Brigham made it up." Right? If that's your focus, people are going to run screaming. Like, no one, no one wants to mimic that. No one wants to look conspiratorial or negative or anything. I never do that because it's not how I feel. I feel like it's excellent, wonderful news. And I go, "Guess what, you guys?" And so people laugh at me because I've got bumper stickers all over my van. I've got, you know, everything. I've got t-shirts. And I'm just so happy about it. No pest control salesman can leave my porch without a card in his hand. I've passed along cards, you know, and it's like, one of them just happened to mention, I said, "Oh, you know, you're doing a great job. Are you doing this for the summer?" "Well, I'm getting ready to get married, so I needed some extra money." "Oh, you're getting married. Are you LDS?" "Yeah, here. Here's a card." You know, because I don't want it plaguing their young marriage. I want it to be gone right from the get-go. So, I mean, store clerks, everybody. I'm just like, "Guess what? It's wonderful. And you seem like a nice person. I bet you'll appreciate this." And I just give it to them. So, there you go. It's just share it nicely. Back off if they're not interested. Don't shove it down their throat. It's all good.

I got the sense that maybe, well, let's just, let's put it this way. There were people that were against K. Kelly and ordained women because they didn't want women or people getting excommunicated for advocating for the priesthood because then it, people would feel like they couldn't advocate for the priesthood. In other words, take it up to the point of getting excommunicated but stop short of that because it hurts the movement once the church starts excommunicating people. So, were you at all worried that once you got excommunicated and spoke publicly about it that you didn't have to do that, it would make people go, "Well, I got to stop believing this because otherwise I'll end up like Karen?"

Right. And I do know that some people hold that, um, and some people, and it's more than, it's more than one, it's more than than the obvious, but some people have been threatened with excommunication but have chosen to take their work down in order to still have that cred of being a member of the church because of the people you're describing, right? The minute you say, "This is an excommunicated person," some members will just plug their ears and that's it. And so I get that, that those exist. And so I'm glad that some people are taking, um, are preserving their membership and able to and able to still say, "I'm a member of the church in good standing." That's fine. However, that's not my target audience. You know, I just decided early on that's not my, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to say the, whatever the truth is that I want. And if someone, you know, if I get excommunicated, yes, there will be some people that dismiss me, but that's not my target audience. My target audience.

But what if it works against your goal? If your goal is to have 17 million Mormons.

Stop believing Joseph Smith's polygamy.

What if your excommunication.

Goes against.

Yeah, decreases the likelihood that people are going to be willing to believe.

No, it's a great, I see what you're saying. And in that case, I'm gonna blame God because I have felt him every [laughter] step of the way. So that's, I, I swear, John, I, this is not what I wanted to be doing. So I would have stopped long ago if I had thought that it was an option. And I just feel like he wants this out there. And so I'm happy to do that. So it's all good. So I.

You're trusting in God.

I am absolutely trusting in God.

Good answer. It's a good answer. Okay. So, do you, I don't think you have a crystal ball, but like, there is an apost, you know, there is this chance that whenever the church goes after the leaders like with Kate Kelly and ordained women or with me or Jeremy Reynolds or Natasha or Sam, anytime the church chops off the head of a sizable group, they risk an apostasy of all the people that support that person who's helping lead it. Do you foresee this potentially leading to a large number of people leaving the church?

I hope not. If we can stay, and I'm not telling anyone what to do. I get that sometimes you're like, "I can't be associated," and I have to step back. I 100% understand that and and understand that. So, um, however, if you can stay, if your ward isn't problematic, if you have a nice ward, please just keep going because if we who are excommunicated can still just interact pleasantly with our ward members and worship with them and truly do treat them in a Christlike way and continue to serve them and do everything we can, that takes the sting out of excommunication, right? That takes the stigma out of excommunication ultimately. So, it's going to take more than one person. But if we can just say, you know what, erase my name, type out my name, whatever you need to do, backspace it out of there, but I'm still coming and I'm still going to be a disciple of Christ, that's going to go a long way and God will bless that, you know, and make it powerful. I, I've gotten so many more views to my video since I've been excommunicated. You know, it was dwindling, like I say, between, you know, it'll leap up to like 200 views a day and then it'll dwindle down. So, it had dwindled down to maybe 80 views a day, 80 to 100 views a day. And after I got excommunicated, it's been between 300 and 700 every day, you know? So, it's like, that's cool.

What if the church tells you you can't come to church anymore?

That, I absolutely know that's a possibility, and I've known that from the beginning. And, um, I, you know, that'll be sad. So, yes, that would make me sad. So, if their goal is to make me sad, that's what they'll do, right? But, um, my state president said that that was not happening. So, I'm glad of that. And he was like, "Just don't, don't promote this at church." And I'm like, "That's fair. Absolutely fair." Cuz I'm now on their turf, right? When I'm at church, I'm a guest. It's not my church anymore. So, I'm happy to be quiet now. You know that I'm at church now. So, if someone asks me, I'll just be like, you know, talk to me later. It's some good news, but I'll talk, you know, whatever. Like, I have ideas on Joseph Smith. I'm not sure me thing, but we can talk later. Not here. So, that's perfectly fine. And, and, and again, it's, it's theirs. So, they can make the rules how they want, right? So, I've been told that as long as I don't promote this stuff at church that I'm allowed to come. So, there you go.

Penultimate question, I think. Do you have any reaction to like Jasmine Rapali or Jacob Hansen or Greg Matson, those Mormon apologists? I mean, you've already told us what you think of Brian Hales. Any other thoughts on the sort of younger, hipper YouTube apologists who have responded to this movement and to you slash Michelle?

Yeah, they've just, you know, they're, they're saying the same old thing without looking at the source documents again. Like, Jasmine Rapley, she and her husband and Stephen Smoot all went on together and the episode was called "Debunking the Polygamy Deniers: A Look at the Source Documents." It was something really close to that. And here's a quiz for you. Okay. How many source documents did they put up?

I watched that, but it wouldn't be a lot.

It was one, tops. The one that they put up was a typewritten excerpt from William Clay's journal. It wasn't even his real. It was like, that's a look at the documents, and it was so great because I can always point to that. This is them looking at the documents. They don't. So, I talked to Greg Madson. I don't know if you know that, but he was awesome. I, I saw him on with Brian Hales. He had Brian Hales on. It was just like Brian Hales just gaslighted the whole time. So, in frustration, I emailed Greg and I said, "Can I please, please just put this book in your hand, you know?" And he, he said, "I'll be at Thanksgiving Point tomorrow, you know, 6:00, whatever, 8:00." So, I was like, "No way." So, I go, it was just Kurt like that, too. It was funny. So, I go and meet him at Thanksgiving Point, and it turns out he didn't even know who I was until after he had agreed to meet with me. He didn't even know my name. He hadn't heard of it. He, he just hadn't heard of me at all. So, he agreed to meet with some rando that was going to give him a book. He didn't even know why. Like, kudos to the guy for that, you know. So, we stood out, uh, on the sidewalk at Thanksgiving Point for an hour and a half and talked about this stuff. And he would ask me questions, and I would give him my best answer, but I put my book in his hand. And I don't know if he ever watched the movie. You know, it doesn't seem like it from what he's still saying, but hey, you know, he let me do that. That would be what I would ask of Jasmine Rapley, anybody, all of them. Jacob Hansen, I would love it. But they're so insulated. Like, I really want to talk to Bill Turnbull. If someone can put me in touch with Bill, I would be so grateful because he's seems so reasonable to me to be like, "Hey, I don't think Jacob 230 is a loophole." Because I read this article and it was made a really good point. I was like, "Whoa, you know, that's, that means a lot to me just to have somebody open-minded that much." And I, again, I don't need them on my side. I just need to share it so they can see it. That's all.

They just don't want to get excommunicated.

Yeah. [laughter] Be quiet about it. That's all you got to do. You can quietly believe it. So crazy.

Okay, last question.

Remind everyone the name of your YouTube channel, the name of the video, the name of your book, and how they can buy it and how they can contact you.

Okay, so I think the, I'm embarrassed. I think the YouTube channel is just Karen Hyatt.

You need to rename it.

I know, right? Um, and the, but the video, what you want to type into YouTube is "Woe Unto You Scribes." That will bring it up immediately. So, it's called "Woe Unto You Scribes: The Hidden History of Polygamy." And you can also see it at josepholdthetruth.org. That's where you'll be able to see the movie. You'll be able to see the ad-free Rumble version. If you don't have an ad blocker, you can see the PDF. Get a free printable PDF if you just want to print it.

Monetizing this.

No, it's not monetized. But see, YouTube puts it, peppers it with ads even if it's not monetized. I was ticked because I purposely didn't monetize it, but they still put ads all over it. But Rumble is an unlisted video, so you can't find it in a search, but the link is at my website if that makes sense. So, just go to josepholdthetruth.org and you'll find an ad-free link if you need that. Um, also, yes, as you mentioned, the, the written form of it is available and I just put it up for cost on the Lulu bookstore. So, again, there's links to that, um, in all the description boxes. I always have the links to the book and whatever you want. Um.

How to email you.

And email me at woeuntouyscribesmail.com.

All right. Well, Karen Hyatt, uh, we went five hours.

I am [laughter] shocked. I laughed. I said, they go, "You're going on there." What? Like Michelle did. I said, "No, no, no. Three hours is my ultimate limit." And then I saw your info sheet was like, "We're aiming for two hours." I was like, "Oh, cool, guys." And then I looked at my phone at 2:30 and just about freaked out. I am sorry. I feel like apologizing to people. I'm not sorry at all, but I feel like apologizing to everybody else. I'm like.

There's still 550 people on the live stream.

How am I this long-winded? Five hours goes by.

This will reach tens of thousands of people for sure. 100, maybe 100,000 people at least. So.

Um, no, I just think people should be able to tell their story.

I agree.

And tell it in as, with as much time and care as they want. That's why we do this. So.

You're amazing. I just can't believe I, I got to get a t-shirt. Like, I lasted five hours on John Lyn. I don't know what to say. That's amazing. That flew by for me. I'm sure it didn't for everybody else. They're like, "Talk faster." I hope everybody put it on double speed. But anyway.

We got one super chat in the whole thing and it's Eric I learned Doll. Uh he says, "300K, can't wait for the celebratory video." So thank you.

Yeah.

So Eric, yeah, Eric's reminding people. Thanks for the super chat, Eric. And please subscribe to YouTube. Please help us on the Mormon Stories podcast channel uh reach 300,000. Also subscribe to WOO un-, no, to Karen Hyatt YouTube channel as well. Um, because that also deserves to be subscribed to. Uh, anyway. Uh, okay. Oh, the conference and the journal.

Journal of Mormon Polygamy Conference, March 20th and 21st. Go to journalofmanpolygamy.org and get your ticket there. There's only 400 spots. They are going to go. So get them. Get them sooner rather than later.

I want to, I kind of, part of me wants to go to that.

You should go. It's, it's got a good lineup. I don't think they've officially announced the speakers yet except for the controversial one, but, but there's going to be speakers that people are going to be super happy to hear from. So, that's all I can say.

And I can, I think I'm allowed to say I'm going to be on a panel, so that'll be fun.

All right. Well, uh, so thank you, Karen Hyatt. This has been amazing. Thank you, Michelle Stone. And just, y'all, y'all just, y'all represent like the best of the Mormon people to me. You know what I mean? Do what is right, let the consequence follow. You know what I mean?

I do know what you mean. And Rob Fatheringham, whose [laughter] video I saw, came onto my channel and just dropped that comment and it got like 350 likes. That's all he said. But also, that's all he said. Oh, say what is truth is the fairest gem.

Right.

It's stand up, be, be, you know, stand up alone if you need to. All the things that we say.

We need to do. So, anyway, thank you, John. Thank you so much.

Well, thanks for standing for what you believe to be true and for fighting for evidence and for good scholarship and science.

Thank you.

Yeah, that's good. And for letting people make their own decisions.

Absolutely.

All right. What an honor. Well, thank you, Karen Hyatt. Thanks to Brooklyn and Julia for everything they do behind the scenes. Thanks to all our donors. We couldn't do this without you. Um, uh, if you are not a donor and you want to, we need your support. Go to morstories.org/donate. Become a donor. Is there a way to support you and help pay for billboards or whatever?

People have asked. Just contact me through the website. I'll be happy to do that. I don't solicit them, but people donate all the time. So, contact me through the website and, um, and I'd be happy to have your help.

And Dan Vogle says, "Good job, Karen."

Oh my [laughter] gosh. Can we go to lunch? Dan, can we go to lunch? I, I'll buy you lunch wherever you name the place. That is so sweet.

And Dan, we love having you in the comments. And if anybody wants to rewatch, you can see all sorts of commentary of all sides of the spectrum [laughter] in the, in the live chat. Uh, you can rewatch that. Anyway, thank you, Karen Hyatt. Thanks for joining our Mormon Stories. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. We're at 4 minutes, 4 hours, 59 minutes, and 41 seconds. We, we'll stop before we hit five. Thanks everybody. Take care. We'll see you all soon.