Transcription
Tell the story to us of how you guys become these two hugely influential podcasters.
If you think about evangelical preachers and think about Trump, right now, a lot of Democrats are proud Christians. Does that bother you?
Yes. I'm a devout Muslim. Are you? Some people like to say radicalized. I would say I've been deprogrammed from corporate news propaganda and corporate Democrats.
How did you feel, Cory Booker handle that interview?
Not very well.
Where does your concern for the Palestinians in this issue come from? I don't know what's going on in Israel and Palestine, but I just know every [ __ ] politician I hate supports Israel.
Scott Jennings, a man I consider to be the most loathome man on cable news. You know what's amazing to me? How submissive all of these men are. Jesse Waters at Fox calls Trump daddy. JD Vance is this country's biggest prostitute.
What I need to talk to you about Epstein files.
Oh my god. Elon Musk in the Epstein files. Pathetic. Do you believe he's a Mosad spy?
Yeah, I do. Merrick Garland had these files for four [ __ ] years. I've been saying that for last week do anything with it.
We got a list of Democrats. You tell me if they need a political remodeling or they just need to retire. Any Democrat who's in DC right now might be [ __ ] themselves to hear that you're in town.
You think so?
I'm Mandy Husten. I'm Jennifer Welch. And we're not kidding. The award-winning podcast from Zer, where I get to talk to funny people about serious things and I hope funny things. Jennifer Welch is in the building. How are you?
Very well. How are you?
[ __ ] talker extraordinaire.
I am. I've got a mouth on me. Political commentator, interviewer, co-host of the hit podcast I've had it, which I've had the pleasure of being on.
Yes. It was such a pleasure to have you on my podcast.
Thank you. Thank you. And you came all the way to DC.
I know. We had to do this in person.
We had to do it in person. And you are in Washington DC. I feel like any Democrat who's in DC right now might be [ __ ] themselves to hear that you're in town.
You think so?
Yeah. You don't think so?
Like in a good way or scared of me?
Scared of your work. I think scared of you.
Yeah. Some of them maybe. I hope so.
You hope so. That's an aspiration.
Yeah, I would think so.
Make Democrats [ __ ] in their pants.
Yeah. It's I think we need more people who make Democrats [ __ ] in their pants. We might be better as a country.
There's no question about it. You have done that through this amazing podcast. It's become hugely popular uh over the last couple of years. and you have been the subject of a lot of interesting profile pieces. Rolling Stone is the future of viral left podcasting. These two hilarious red state moms. The Guardian, how two blonde suburban moms gave Democrats an answer to the right-wing media ecosystem. The New York Times. Is this former Bravo star Democrat's toughest critic? What is the answer to all of those questions, Jen?
Okay, that's so surreal and so wild because I remember each individual interview and in a way it all still seems just like do I really have this kind of national political voice and I think the answer is that yes it's becoming more and more.
Lean into it.
Yeah. I mean, even the right-wing Telegraph in the UK I love their one. This swear wine mom is the Democrat's answer to Joe Rogan.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that um that whole thing, that whole narrative, who is the answer to Joe Rogan on the left is the dumbest thing on the planet.
Because that means you have one type of person in your tent.
Yes. If you have one singular voice that encapsulates your political movement, if that's Joe Rogan, makes a lot of sense. But we need to have multiple. We need to have Medy's, we need to have Jennifer's, we need to have Assan Pikers, um uh Midas Touch, etc. We need to have a big tent media ecosystem.
Very good point. It's always kind of it's very reductive. Who is the Joe Rogan?
Right. Um and then you have people say, "Well, Joe Rogan was the Joe Rogan. He supported Bernie and the Democrats kicked him out." There's all these arguments about it. It's very It's not very imaginative. It's not very creative. Um and it also ignores what is happening online, which is this huge diversity of sources. You mentioned some of them. just talk to me a bit and let our viewers and our subscribers know how it is that you and your co-host Angie Sullivan, an interior designer and a divorce lawyer from the Bible belt. Tell the story to us of how you guys become these two hugely influential podcasters. Liking this video and don't just watch, hit like, share, and subscribe and tap the bell so you never miss a video or live show. But if you want early access to exclusive content, then you have to head to zateo.com and subscribe now. You'll be supporting Fearless Independent Journalism.
Okay. So, we were on a Bravo show.
Yes. In 2017 through 2019. It got cancelled. She went back to.
Best thing that ever happened to you. Clearly.
Totally. She went back to divorce law. Um, I went back to interior design because of the show. The second season was featured featured my design work. I got all of these national jobs and so my business that was kind of regional Texas, Oklahoma became nationwide. Meanwhile, I have these two teenage sons and she has three kids, Angie and they were always monitoring our social media. Like, hey, you still have a lot of fans from the Bravo show. You should do a podcast. So, we started the podcast. I've had it. And we just talked about grievances. This was during uh Biden's presidency. We talked about gender reveal parties people. Um.
What's the grievance with the gender of your party?
They're awful.
They're awful.
I mean, like it just like you're having a human. It's a 50-50 chance if it's a boy or a girl. Why are we I think we're over celebrating children.
Oh.
Kindergarten graduations. It's getting a little bit.
Very American thing. I I moved here from the UK, as you know. We don't have a graduation for every period of child's life. Like in the UK, you graduate from college.
High school. We started copying the US, but that wasn't a big thing either when I was a kid.
But like here, it's elementary school, kindergarten. you get a cap and a gown.
And now in utero, the gender reveal party.
A good point. So my this is like and then we say, "Oh, this generation has no grit." And I'm like, "Well, I wonder why." Because.
We've been cuddling and celebrating everything they do.
Um so anyway, they said you should start a podcast. We did. I've had it. And I can't help but talk about politics. So I was raised by two atheists that are progressive in the middle of the Bible belt.
You've always been political.
Always. I've always been a diehard political junkie. Angie evangelical Republican. She started, I would say, switching her politics maybe 10 years ago and then kind of deconstructed her very black and white worldview of religion a few years ago. So when if you listen to our earlier episodes, I'm a lot more overtly political.
She was still kind of in the closet a little bit about it, but she start she's really finding her voice. Listen, I always tell her, I think your story is so important because I think there's a lot of people.
Does she still identify as a conservative/Rep Republican or whatever Trump? Nothing.
No. No. She's a a liberal Democrat.
Interesting.
I would say because of you.
I mean, I I maybe I mean, I'm pretty.
And you think that you're a liberal Democrat because of your atheist parents?
There's no question.
You think there's a link between atheism and progressive politics?
Of course there is.
I'm a devout Muslim.
Are you?
Yeah.
Well, I I religion kind of fascinates me. I'm always fascinated by the left and I would argue that my leftwing values come from my faith.
Really?
Yeah.
But like what about science?
What about science?
Do you you do you think the world was created in seven days?
No.
Okay.
I mean Islam did a lot for science as I'm sure you know the history of science. Some of the great scientists.
But it's the.
But of course there are fundamentalists, extremists, literalists in every religion that will take a different.
Well, because I when you grow up in Oklahoma in the Bible belt, there's.
The world is literally seven days.
Everything's literal. But values-wise, justice, equality.
Religions, most religions, certainly the Abrahamic religions do push those values. Right now, a lot of Democrats are proud Christians. Rafael Waro, Buddha Judge, many people, James Talerico in Texas are running on a kind of you can be a Democrat.
Does that bother you?
I Yes. Okay.
I don't I mean to be honest.
I don't like religion and politics at all.
At all. I don't care what religion it is. I think that we need to be a completely secular government and a lot of this comes from the damage of being raised around hyperreligious evangelicals who turned out to vote for Trump.
80 90%.
Andre and all that stuff you talk about that doesn't exist in that sect of Christianity.
Can I but can I correct you there? Yeah, correct. Because people say hyper evangelist vote for Trump.
White evangelicals vote. That's exactly right. Hispanic and black evangelicals do not vote for Trump in anywhere near the same numbers. So when I see stats for that, I think maybe it's less to do with the evangelical and more to do with the white part. Maybe the race is driving people to Trump more than the religion because clearly there are religious Christians who are not voting for Trump in the same numbers. And I wonder whether are we allowing this one extreme part of Christianity in the US, the Christian nationalist, the white evangelicals to warp our view of all Christians or all Muslims or all believers?
It certainly has mine. I mean to be honest with you.
You're saying it scarred you as a child growing up in Oklahoma. I get it. Growing up as a liberal atheist in Oklahoma, it must have been hard. And.
I get that there are like Christian light people, what I call Christian light, that don't take the Bible literally that have something personal inside them wherein they get serenity and there's no desire to push it onto other people. I understand that. what I grew up around white Christian evangelicals. Um, if you think about evangelical preachers, uh, televangelists and think about Trump, it's the exact same human being, grifters, um, consumed with, um.
Trump doesn't even to be a Christian really.
Right? But he's managed to get all these people on board. I mean, the cultish view of these evangelicals, white evangelicals in the Bible, Alford Trump is astonishing. I think it's one of the most bizarre aspects of the base. Like I get cults. Like there are lots of personality cults in the world.
I've never objected to the Republican party becoming a cult. I've objected to him being the cult leader. That's the guy you picked. Like you could have picked anyone else. Like Ronald Reagan, I understood the worship for Ronald Reagan, the movie star. He won the Cold War, whatever [ __ ] they built around him. Yeah.
But Trump, I will never get like you guys picked the twice divorced adulterous casino owner because of the hypocrisy. No, it's it he is such an extension of evangelical Christianity. I would go to.
How they're the ones who are saying all these moral values. They used to be the moral majority guys and then you get this the fundamentally immoral most immoral.
Churches that grift the [ __ ] out of their working class attendees.
The big the big church telling.
Yes. And it's a Bible thumping black and white worldview. These people literally believe in spiritual warfare and they speak in very simple black and white terms about it. Good versus evil. What does Trump talk about? Good versus evil. And they live in this. I remember my friends in high school and junior high concerned that there were demons in our presence when we were at slumber parties. I'm like, "What? There's a demon in here?" And they believed it literally. And they believe that he is the second coming of Christ.
Well, I believe in good and evil. I just happen to think Trump's on the evil part of the equation.
Well, there's no question. And I'm just telling you the link for me as a person from in the Bible belt.
He is exactly like an evangelical preacher.
Do you think that radicalized you more politically being around those people growing up?
No. Um my mother is a voracious reader, incredibly insatiably curious. And so my life was this juxtaposition of being around my friends that I wanted to fit in with. and they had this very black and white world view consumed at like age 10 with being virgins. Then I'd go to my mother and you could ask any question on the planet you wanted to. She invited critical thinking. She invited any like I would ask them, "Well, why would God commit genocide on the earth and flood everybody? That doesn't make any sense if he loves you so much." Like, oh, we don't question our faith. Satan's clearly getting in your head, Jennifer. I'd go home and ask my mom about it. She's like, "Well, that's ridiculous, Jennifer. let's read into all of this. And she embraced open inquiry.
So my dad was very much like that. My dad passed away a few months ago, but was a man of faith. Not a not a not a quote unquote religious man in his outward ability. Clearly a believer in God, believer in Islam, but he also encouraged me and my sister to ask those questions, controversial. He didn't say just blindly accept whatever you're given. And I I attribute a lot of my politics to my dad and and clearly you got a lot from your mom. The recent years, the Trump years, the podcast years, do you feel yourself moving more to the left?
Yes, there's no question. I was a liberal um up until this last election and then I would say I'd probably midway through I started really turning further to the left. Maybe when Biden didn't bow out, when Mar Garland didn't charge Yeah. the higherups, when he only charged the lowlevel offenders and let the elites that funded January 6 off the hook. Um I started getting dismayed. But you have to understand too that when you are a liberal, what I would call an MSNBC liberal, which is what I was.
In Oklahoma.
The reflection, yeah, is that I am a crazy communist. So when I started podcasting, somebody in our on our comments called me a moderate or a centrist and I was like.
What you called me a.
So funny.
But it was so true, but I was so offended by it. But I have definitely moved further to the left and I would say some people like to say radicalized. I would say I've been deprogrammed from corporate news propaganda and corporate Democrats. And I understand that within the Democratic party, you have corporate Dems and progressive Dems. And I'm a progressive Dem.
I mean, I worked at MSNBC for three years, as you know, and I was the most leftwing person at that network. And I always found it amusing when people would say MSNBC, the leftwing version of Fox. I was like, I wish I wish it was the leftwing view. It's not at all. I had a great time there, but it's not a leftwing network. by Comcast. No way can it be a leftwing network. Yeah. And when I move from the US, it's funny because you come from the UK and you're like the Democratic Party in Europe would be considered a conservative party. Right. Right. It doesn't support universal healthcare which even conservatives in Europe support. Like basic policy positions Democrats are to the right of many European conservative parties. So it's so skewed as you say liberal becomes left and moderate. Um one of the reasons audiences as you know Jennifer flock to you. One of the reasons you popped up in my social feeds when I first came across you is your unsparing use of language. Uh you drop a lot of [ __ ] bombs, which I enjoy. Some of your nicknames for Donald Trump include Cankle's MCT tits, whiny titty baby. Um how did you learn to curse like this?
You know, I don't know because my parents don't particularly cuss. And so I really don't know where it comes from because I think when I was younger, I remember I had like a diary and I called a friend like a [ __ ] And of course my sister who was a [ __ ] who is a [ __ ] went and found my diary. I was like, "Jennifer's cussing in her diary." And I remember my mother being like, and I don't know if it was the that I wasn't supposed to do it that I did. And then especially when I get around Pumps, who is Angie, I nickname is Pumps. We both just start feeding off of each other and cussing.
Do your boys make of your cussing.
Oh, they're fine with it. Yeah.
Proud. Yeah, it's a good one, Mom.
Yeah, they're proud of me.
I wish we could cuss like that.
I was just talking to my oldest son last night, FaceTiming him. He's in law school. He said, "Mom, I'm so proud of you. I saw a clip where you said you regretted your vote for Hillary and wish you would have voted for Bernie." This is evolution, Mom. My son said to me, "Is that your position now?"
Yeah, it is. We would have been in a different country right now if Bernie, had been the candidate and maybe won.
Over the past year, let's talk about the Democrats and your your interviews. Over the past year, you and your co-host Angie Pumps have conducted some of I think some of the toughest interviews of Democratic politicians that we have seen for a while. And that's both a compliment to you, but also an indictment of our media that you two from Bravo with the podcast are doing the grilling that the Sunday morning shows, the meet the presses are not. People like Rahm Emanuel, Hakeem Jeff, JB Pritska. Probably your most viral interview was with Senator Cy Booker of New Jersey. Let's have a watch at that.
Okay. What do you have to say about the capitulation that you've participated in? We have a really good way of holding up these purity tests that if I agree with you on 95 [ __ ] I'm one of a handful of people that don't take corporate pack money. I don't understand my democratic.
What about Apac money? You take Apac money, don't you?
A minuscule percentage of my resources come from. I raised like 800,000. There's a photo shoot with you with Benjamin Netanyahu and I was just like what in the actual [ __ ] Benjamin Netanyahu? Do you think he's a war criminal?
I I again these are these are questions that a lot of people think are the important litmus tests. Democrats get so frustrated with where we are right now where you see like the Zoron Mannis and the Graham Platiners rise up because you we can they can go on podcast and you can say do you think Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal and they just say yes and that's the end of it. How did you feel? Hilarious clip. How did you feel Corey Booker handle that interview?
Not very well. Um, it's, you know, the thing is what's so crazy is when you when you're not in the Death Star, which is media politics, and you watch it and it's your life and you're a diehard political junkie, you think everybody's so smart and all of these great things about it, and then you get in it and you're like, Jesus Christ. I mean, this is just like any other workplace gossipy environment. And then you have people [ __ ] Yes. And so.
Cy Booker.
Genuinely I like he's a likable person. Um I like when he talks about civil rights. I think he has a really emotional way of connecting with people. And then when you find out like for me when we lost to a [ __ ] [ __ ] two times in a row or one time and then another time 20 and then 20 24. You start looking at why are we losing? You start looking at corporate donations. And then I started looking into the whole Israel thing. And then when you find out that these people are beholden to the same pack that gave Trump the same amount of money that Elon Musk did to get him elected and they don't feel like that's a conflict of interest. It's kind of heartbreaking. Yeah.
And so I was just kind of like, are you going to call I mean I thought I'd start with a really simple question like.
It wasn't a gotcha, right? You were just trying to you it felt like plain speaking that we don't see in the media enough.
I thought it would just be a super simple Yes. Yes, but he couldn't bring himself to do it.
He couldn't say it. And that was a real eye opening thing.
Said, "Oh, we're running out of time. I got to go vote." Do you worry that these Democrats want to come on your show because you've got this big profile now. You've got a big audience, but at the same time, the more you grill them.
This is a great dilemma for a lot of people in public life. I've had this when I've done interviews. The tougher you are, the less likely people are going to come on again in the future.
Yeah, I worry about it. But I also believe in public shaming. And so I think that we have a lot more followers than they do and a lot more connections in the independent media world to boost shaming, public shaming of politicians that are selling us down the river and her being fascist collaborators. And so if politicians start cancelling or don't come on, this is such a dire moment that we're in. I intend to call them out and call you and say, "Hey, regram this." and call the mightest touch and say, "Hey, regram this. Let's boost it." They cannot dodge us. More people have left corporate media. They're not watching cable news. They're watching us and they need to come talk to us.
Yeah. Know, I 100% agree. My my worry, I'm not going to say critique. My worry about independent media, I'm a big fan of it. I'm now in independent media. I think it's the future, especially with what's happening at the Washington Post and all these other places. But my one concern has always been that are people politicians in power? Are they going to go to podcast because they think they're going to get an easier ride. Right. The reason people go on Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan doesn't grill anyone. He's, you know, super softballs to Donald Trump when Trump came on. And there's a, you know, there's a reason why Republican politicians love podcasts is because comedy podcasts because they're not going to get grilled in the same way that they might semi get grilled on a Sunday show. Difference with you, of course, is that you're a podcast that does also grill. But not everyone else in the liberal space is doing that. I'm not going to take any names right now, but there are liberal podcasts where where a Cory Booker could go and get asked no tough questions whatsoever. And they love that. That's what they're going to focus on in the between now and people like you and me and some other folks who still want to ask some tough questions, breaking points.
We may get.
Black balled.
Yeah.
Yeah. You know, I mean.
At least we have our principles.
That's what I think. And that's really how I feel about it. And that's what I think the Democratic Party lacks. And I think that I think that public shaming works.
Also, they're stronger for it. By the way, can I just say this to you? IT'S IN YOUR interest to come on and take our tough questions because look at Kla Harris. Look what happens when you try and shield a candidate. Look at Joe Biden. like the the president and the last the last two presidential candidates for Democrats were shielded from tough media exposure. Whatever you think about Donald Trump, and I have very negative views of Donald Trump, he goes out and lies his ass off and bullshits and attacks Caitlyn Collins, but he doesn't hide from the media. Well, he does when he's got something to hide, but in general.
I think it's a great way to show vulnerabilities, too.
If you want to be run for the big seat, you need to go on podcasts early enough, show vulnerabilities. Have your staff mind the comment section. see what's popping off, see what isn't because if they need to evolve on an issue, it's time to do it now. And I think the Democratic party is going to be uh the corporate Dems have no idea how much the base has shifted. I know so many rich Republican women in Oklahoma that are now full-blown liberal Democrats, and I'm shocked. But it is one after another after another. this man in this regime has been so off-putting to so many people.
The interesting thing is a lot of people are becoming more progressive, more liberal, but there is this phenomenon. I don't know if you've come across it. It's called PEP, progressive except Palestine. They're amazingly progressive on every issue. But you mentioned Palestine, whether it's a Cory book or whoever it is, Gavin Newsome, they will run away, run for the hills. What I'm wondering is how did you dodge becoming a pet? You mentioned earlier I started reading about like where does your interest where does your passion where does your concern for the Palestinians and this issue come from.
Okay. So when you live in Oklahoma it's very white at least where I live. There is a black part of town. It's still very segregated. You don't really know what's going on in the Middle East. And I don't mean for this to sound dismissive but you don't care either. And this is multiply this over lots of states in the middle of Oklahoma. Um, there's a tiny tiny tiny Jewish community. There's no Muslims at all. The zero Muslim population. So, I fell prey to probably some ambient Islamophobia. I watched a lot of Bill Maher in my early 20s. Listened to Christopher Hitchens.
Who's described as a left-winger, by the way, to go back to our earlier discussion. Bill Maher's the left for the right.
Yeah. But, uh, so after 9/11, I think I absorbed some of that also having a default setting of not liking religion. So when it was told to me that Israel is a democracy and there are all I was like, "Okay, yeah, that's great. We need to fight for abortion in Oklahoma. We need to fight for abortion rights." You know, I was fighting more immediate civil rights in these horrible red states. And so when we went to the DNC, which was so cool for us to get invited to the DNC, we went every day and I was so focused on helping commonly get elected. I would walk in and there were all these peaceful protesters Palestine. I would walk out and I'm a little bit ashamed to admit this to you, but I think atonement and purging is a therapeutic thing. I was irritated by them. I thought they are going to [ __ ] this up for us.
The uncomm committed movement.
Yes. In the Palestinian protest.
And why aren't they doing this at, you know, the RNC and blah blah, but I just thought everybody's going to pull together and vote for Kamla. There's no way he can win. Well, after she lost, I was like, "Your mother taught you to be curious. You need to dive into this thing." My husband always said, "I don't know what's going on in Israel and Palestine, but I just know every [ __ ] politician I hate supports Israel." Ted Cruz, that's the way he's a defense lawyer.
That's actually a pretty good way of judging an issue.
Lindsey Graham, he goes, I just know that.
Do you want to be on the same side as Ted Cruz and Lindsy Graham?
So, that was his take on it. So, I really started researching about it like how did Israel become a country? I didn't [ __ ] know. I didn't care. And I know that's terrible to say, but when you live in a red state, you're so focused on domestic politics.
Criticism of red states. This is not a red state issue. This is a Americaawwide issue. There are people in blue states who have no clue about what's happening in Palestine. Let's be clear about that.
So, I started reading all about it and uh and then when you just when you see what happens. I have some friends in one girl that I play with tennis with in Oklahoma City and she is uh Palestinian. And I said to her one day after a tennis match, I said, "Hey, Aness, where are you from?" She goes, "Oh, I'm from Palestine originally." And I just put my hand on her shoulder and I said, "I'm so sorry for what's happening to your country." And she like started crying and she said, "You're the only person in this entire state that has acknowledged what's happening to my homeland." She goes, "And I never cry." And so I thought, you know, this is this is pretty [ __ ] up. So I read and read and read and read read about it and it's just it's a genocide. It just is. And you either believe in universal human rights or you don't.
This is post election. So this is this is this is it over a year after October 7th. So for the for the first part of the genocide, you were intent on defend Democrats, stop Trump, protect abortion rights, this isn't the issue. These annoying people at DNC, then after Harris loses, that's when you do a deep dive and say.
No, I would say during the election, a lot of our listeners were asking us to look into it. And I saw footage and I knew that this was.
Footage is key.
A lot of people.
Yeah.
Cuz you couldn't you can't hide it in the old way.
You can't hide it. You can't spin it.
Mainream media control.
And I knew.
You they live streamed a genocide.
Yeah. And I knew that this was was horrible. And then you know my husband's always he's very critical of the Democrats. He's very critical of the Republicans. He's like whatever that whatever Ted Cruz supports I'm [ __ ] against. Like that's his political ethos.
That's a good rule.
Really good.
Pretty good. That cuts out a lot of time and energy. Just what's Ted What side is Ted Cruz on? I'm on the other side.
That's him. That is him. And so I.
Except for a very brief window in 2016 where he was anti-Trump for like two months.
Yeah, exactly. But I would say that I started thinking about it, but I was so focused when you live in red states, I was so focused on the abortion ban that we had and women that I know that were pregnant 20 weeks pregnant went to get an ultrasound. Baby's organs are outside of the body. Normally you could get an emergency DNC and now all of a sudden they're driving to New Mexico or Colorado or flying somewhere with this institutionalized shame. They can't get health care. So I was really focused on the climate on the ground in Oklahoma and federal governments, even corporate dems provide harm reduction for vulnerable people in red states.
But I'm not stupid and I knew like this is a big [ __ ] problem that the Democratic Party has lost twice to this man. Do you think that Israel and Gaza a will be an issue in 2028 for the presidential candidates and should be?
Yes, and it should be.
You see Gavin Newsome went on Van Lean's podcast and Van asked him about Apac and he went got very flustered. Gavin who's normally very smooth and like anything about Apac had anything to do with AP.
I will not vote for a candidate that takes $1 from Apac.
It's interesting. I mean it's interesting. I haven't thought about Apac.
And it's interesting. You're like the first to bring up Apac in years which is interesting.
Interesting. He said interesting like nine. This is why it's good for them to go on podcasts because he exposed a vulnerability. He stepped in it. He completely budding what he had said. So I think well if people like you and me and others and Van can keep raising the issue then hold these people feet to the fire. I interviewed Ro Khan recently at our live show and he said I think we all it's not I don't think it's a a secret that he's going to run for president in 28 from the left and he wants this to be on the agenda. He thinks it will be on the agenda. He thinks ally Hillary Clinton in 2008 who thought Iraq was done with and then Barack Obama came and made it an issue in '08. Gaza could still be an issue in 28 given where the bases only 8% of Democrats Jennifer support what the party is doing in terms of supporting Israel. 8% approve. And I want to I want to be really clear about something to your audience. I was wrong to not to to be able to have a blind spot, a blurry spot about this. And Gaza should be an issue. Uh the blank check to Israel should be a huge issue. Um and we need to be cleareyed. And I was late to the party, but I'm at the party and I feel 100% moral conviction to it. And the best ma way for me to atone for my blind spot is to make sure that this is an issue because human suffering is human suffering. And then when you pile on all of the suffering happening in America that these oligarchs are going to just pile on even more when they replace their jobs with AI jobs, but Israel is consistently going to get a blank check. And the leader of the Senate, Chuck Schumer, over the weekend.
Yes.
Swore to make sure the blank checks continue. He said, "It's one of my jobs as the leader of the Senate Democrats to Israel, our ally, under my leadership, than ever, ever before."
I thought you're an American politician about.
You know what Chuck Schumer is doing right there? He is teeing up a president Tucker Carlson and a vice president Marjorie Taylor Green because when people in my home state of Oklahoma hear him say that they're going to march up and say listen to the Democrats they're Israel first and the problem with.
Many on the left will defect.
That's right.
Because I've heard friends of mine who are on the left, friends of mine who are Muslims who are saying well at least Marjorie Taylor Green and Tucker Cara whatever you think about all their other things they say about immigrants and at least on this issue they're saying the right thing that Democrats aren't saying. It's a real problem. I think it's a real blind spot for a lot of Democrats. very for and that's why Cy Booker disappoints me so much because he should have moral clarity on this and when you don't have moral clarity on this this issue you leave it wide open for real anti-semmites which I believe Marjorie Taylor Green and Tucker Carlson to be their intentions in that are the same way that they hate gay people the same way that they won't stand up for trans people and so it's a real danger when the Democrats don't have moral clarity on this issue.
I think to be honest Chuck Schumer's statement also will incite anti-semites because Chuck Schumer is Jewish to suggest gest a a Jewish politician has a loyalty elsewhere is anticip Schumer is going out and saying my job is to help a foreign country. I don't care which foreign country that is whether it's Romania, Bulgaria, Spain, Bikina Faso or Israel. You as a Senate minority leader that is not your job and Americans right now don't want to hear that as your job. Um you mentioned earlier you were in Oklahoma. You're no longer in Oklahoma.
That's correct.
Where do you live now?
New York City.
Is that is that a liberal utopia for you now?
It's so great. So, my youngest son graduated from high school and went to college and I got an apartment in New York and it has been a dream. It's so fabulous. The Walking.
Is it like a Is that like Emily in Paris but Jennifer in New York?
Yes, totally. Uhhuh.
That should be the next series. That should be your next reality show.
Exactly. It's like my midlife gap year. I've enjoyed it so much. I've just so enjoyed it.
Very dirty though. New.
I like it. I like the grit.
You're like clean. New York's dirty. Um, it is dirty. Zoram now needs to sort out the trash. There was a hilarious moment. By the way, again, as an immigrant, the things I laugh at about as being an American, new American, Eric Adams, do you see that scene a couple years ago where Eric Adams came out with a wheelie bin and he's like, "This is our solution to New York's trash crisis." Like, the rest of the [ __ ] world has had a wheelie bin for like 30 years. You're actually like, you just discovered something. You terrible politician.
Oh, a trash can is a solution to all the bags of trash on the sidewalk. Um, you being in New York though is good because you get to go on all the TV shows in person. Yes. You know, in the belly of the media beast. One place a lot of people have seen you.
Is on Abby Phillips Late Night Show. A show I went on only once and haven't been back since. Uh, but you go on it and you've been on it with.
Take a deep breath here.
With Scott Jennings.
Yeah. In fact, there's a clip we have of you on CNN last August with Scott Jennings, a man I consider to be the most loathome man on cable news. And that's saying a lot. Let's play that clip. And if you don't think he has dementia, let's just discuss the time that when he was on the campaign trail that he tried to perform oral sex on a microphone. If Joe Biden did this.
I hope this is what Democrats do next year. If this is the Democratic strategy, congratulations, America. You've already reelected Republican majorities as far as the I can concern.
Yeah, because Trump's approval is in the low30s. Listen to this one. He says, picking up his mug and making that face of his. Okay.
Why does he have such an annoying face? Okay, this old queen sitting there, he's always looking like he acts like he's on the Truman Show or something, you know? He's always looking in the audience. I just.
He said recently to Adam Freeland, he sees his role as like a WWE wrest like a performance.
Oh, he said that. He admitted it.
Oh, yeah. I I think that he should be fired from his job. Of course, that's never going to happen. But I think he is such a disgrace to human beings, intelligent conversations, to the truth. Um, he's.
He's not interested in the truth. He's already admitted he's a performer. He's entering and he's playing to an audience of one, which is Donald Trump.
I You know what's amazing to me, Medie, is how submissive all of these men are. They they want to beat women down and make us submissive. And I'm like, y'all are the most submissive group of men I have ever seen.
Yeah. I mean, Jesse Waters at Fox calls Trump daddy. It's a weird thing to do.
It's weird. Am I the only one hearing this? I'm like, I'm not.
And he talks about masculinity all the time. Like men, a real man won't suck out of a straw and a real man wouldn't do this and a real man and a real man and a real man. And I'm just.
Again, again, it's not even the It's not even the misogynistic, childish, immature, toxic masculine rhetoric that I object to. It's that Donald Trump is the guy they think is the real man. Again, it's like the cult. I don't mind the cult. It's the guy you've decided to make your cult leader. Same here. I can I get why lots of men will sit around and say, "We need to be more manly."
Okay, fine. But Donald Trump, that dude with the makeup and the bronzer and the draft dodging.
But but that's such a tell because they they feel these guys have like compensatory narcissism and they feel like by beating other people down, by punching them down, or if they join ICE and they get a gun and a badge, then they're going to feel like real men. And that's that's the through line between them worshiping a man that wears a full face of makeup that like I said in the clip gave a microphone a [ __ ] talks about the size of Arnold Palmer's [ __ ] and is way more interested in his interior design projects at the White House than he is policed than you ever were as an interior design.
This old queen is this is their alpha male. And so I think there's a big case for a Freudian connection to a lot of that stuff. Also, it's funny that two weeks running, we're not kidding, has described Donald Trump as a queen because last week as if Mandvi at Sundance also said Trump like a queen when he was with Zoran Bumdaddy, I want to go over Mom Daddy. Old queen is the phrase he used.
Um, it's funny though because you look at someone like JD Vance.
Mhm.
This is a guy who was never Trump. I interviewed him in 2016 when I was aler very eloquently anti-Trump. Said he cared about minorities, the people I care about, black people, Muslims, they feel threatened by Trump. He told me Trump is taking America down a dark path. Now he's this again Scott Jennings performer, right? He's performing for an audience of one. He does it on social media. Jennings does it on cable. But it's the same thing. They're they're kind of patronizing. They're condescending. They don't really believe anything. They've done 100%.
You're missing a key detail about JD Vance. JD Vance is this country's biggest prostitute. Peter Till calls him up, says come out here. He puts him through his puts him through his gay camp. JD Vance hits the stage queer ride. He's thinner. He's dressed a little bit better. And he is 100% this dark enlightenment stuff. The the Peter Thiel thing with JD Vance is the most dangerous thing that's happened.
There is a very good Vanity Fair piece for those of you who haven't read it from a few years ago about the new right and Vance's role. This is before he was even picked as a vice presidential candidate. He was a senator and he was urging Trump back then, ignore the Supreme Court, just do whatever you want to do. That authoritarianism. I mean, you pissed off a lot of people when you went on MSNBC, not CNN. I've got another clip here of you criticizing JD Vance when he came out and defended that young Republican text group that leaked political the Nazi text. And this is what you said.
He is married to a woman of Indian descent. Yes. He has mixed race children. So to all of the MAGA voters out there, if this man will not defend his wife and will not defend his kids, do you think he gives a crap about you or anything to do with you?
Where's the lie?
It's a great point.
It's 100% true.
It's 100% true. Yeah.
But people lost their [ __ ] I mean, that's probably the single most controversial clip you've done. I mean, the most outrage I saw from obviously all the Republicans who went nuts, but even liberals even said, "Oh, you can't you can't mention his family. You shouldn't say anything like that. People were upset with.
You. Tough titties. I can't mention his family when his administration is going around and separating families and shooting moms and shooting sons, and they were happy for Joe Biden's family, kidnapping little kids. Tough titties. I mean, these guys can dish it out all the time. But a woman stands up and stands up for the kids that he doesn't have the balls to stand up for because Peter Teal owns him and everything he does is for a party of one. I mean, that's just that is the fact that that triggered people shows you what a cancer racism is in this country.
Truth hurts also. I mean, they know it's true. I mean, Bro Connor also raised this point to JD on Twitter, and Vance got very upset then as well, which is number one, you bring up everyone else's kids. The Republicans do. So that's not an issue. Um, but it's not even like you're attacking the children. In fact, the opposite. You're saying you have mixed-race children. They are unsafe in a country where white supremacy is on the rise, and you're fine with white supremacy because you just want to win the 2028 GOP primary, and you need to be a white supremacist to do that these days. I mean, I find it, sorry, I find his wife shameful as well. The fact that, you know, she sat in that RNC with people holding up mass deportation signs. Vance came out recently. Did you see his remarks where he said Americans should want to live next to people who speak their language, who don't speak with an, who don't speak a foreign language? Hold on. Where are your in-laws right now?
It's all this coding [ __ ]. But how does Usha's parents feel about that? They are Indian immigrants who came here, I think, in the early 80s. I wonder what they thought when they heard their son-in-law say that. How do they feel? Did they feel uncomfortable when they went out their house and looked at their neighbors the next day? I mean, what the [ __ ]?
Well, and back to you saying that it pissed some liberals off that I said that. I bet these are the same liberal commentators that got upset that Joe Biden pardoned his son. These are the people that take spoons to a knife fight. These are the people that don't get what we're up against. And if that comment pissed off liberals, then I would probably say that a lot of those liberals are probably supporters of Corey Booker's and Hakeem Jeff.
Have you been invited back on to MSNBC since you said that?
I have not.
Cuz I've I heard that some people high up are very upset about that. They were very upset. That's what I heard.
About that comment. Yeah.
Really?
Yeah. People are snowflakes on the liberal. People have run for the hill. People have all been intimidated, right? This is a weird thing. Isn't it weird? We live in a presidency where the second term of Trump, he's more unpopular than ever before, but he's more powerful in the sense that more people are rolling over for him than ever before.
And to bend the knee to a guy like JD Vance, who, who clearly says the stuff like you're talking about with, uh, you know, people living next to you, you know, at one point he had like a trans roommate.
Didn't know that.
Yeah. He had a trans roommate. Call.
Yes. Yes. Yes. He sent texts saying, "I feel for you and what you're going through."
Yeah. He had empathy. And now you have an entire political movement that
Empathy is suicidal. They say.
"Yes, it's so crazy."
The Elon Musk slide. And that is a beautiful pivot into what I need to talk to you about.
Okay.
Epstein files.
Oh my god.
First off, Elon Musk in the Epstein files.
Pathetic.
The man spends a year saying, "I refused to go to the island." Knowing full well that there are emails at the DOJ that are about to be released that show him begging to go to the island. On Christmas morning, when some of us were with our families, Elon was texting Jeffrey Epstein saying, "Hey, when can I come to the island?" He texted him saying, he emailed him saying, "When's the wildest party?" He emailed him saying, "Once my kids are gone, I'd love to come hang out with you. I need to get something to stress out of my system." Whatever the phrase was. Now he's saying, "I never, I never went and I refused to go." The gaslighting is insane. But but did you see the one email where he's like, "Hey, you should swing by my apartment during UN the UN."
Oh, yes.
And then Elon just doesn't get anything and he's like, "Well, I run these two companies and blah blah blah."
And then don't be [ __ ]. They're all under 25. Yeah. And then Musk shared that as evidence that see how great I am. And first of all, you've confirmed the emails are real. You were claiming they were fake. Second of all, that just means you didn't understand what the invite was. that it's not you turning down a sex party, it's you are not understanding you're invited to a sex party.
Right. Right.
I mean, again, sorry to get, I'm going to rant now. Elon Musk is the leader of a cult. People are now licking his boot saying he's great. He's, you see the people just tweeting in his defense. Again, I have no problem with you making some tech titan your hero, your Tony Stark figure. He's not it. Pathetic.
Here's the thing, too. Okay. I don't care if people are immigrants, but MAGA does. Yes. Right.
And he's an immigrant.
They care. And so I always, when they're like, I always want to go, you're the immigrant Elon because he will go on like a
Not just an immigrant. His brother says they were illegal immigrants. They take
Exactly. And then he goes on these, these whole like pedophilia is wrong, blah, blah, blah. His stepbros and siblings accused his dad
Of being a pedophile.
And so it's like the call.
Yes.
And didn't say anything publicly about it, but was busy inciting hate against Pakistanis in the UK, saying there's a Pakistani rape gang problem in the UK, meanwhile ignoring, yes, the allegations against his father, and of course, knowing that he had been emailing Jeffrey Epstein four years after Epstein's conviction, saying, "When is the quote wildest party at your island?" I mean, I, I just, astonishing to me that this stuff happens. What have you made of just generally the files and all the many people from across the political spectrum in there? It's kind of a reminder that the people who we called conspiracy theorists were kind of right about this elite all scratching each other's backs and protecting criminals.
So when this happens, I go back to something that's not helpful for me to get angry about, but I do every single time. And it's this main, uh, sentence that Merrick Garland had these files for four [ __ ] years. Oh, I've been saying that for the last week. Anything with it. And then people will say, well, no, it's because of Gain's trial.
That was over. That was finished by. We had independence. And I'm like, this is why we lose. This is why we'll continue to lose.
Music to my ear.
This, it, that's what makes me angriest about it is that the Democrats have this [ __ ]. And not only is it the right thing to do to expose all of these rich pedophiles and pedophile protectors and pedophile enablers, but also we had democracy on the line, and that they didn't, they could have, imagine Elon Musk and Donald Trump were there for the taking. Can you imagine if Donald Trump had a bunch of files in which a confidential informant under oath at the penalty of perjury says she saw Joe Biden committing sex crimes or threatening people with death? Now, those are the allegations against Trump in the empty house. Denies them. They're not proven in court, but that's in the files. Can you imagine? Do you think Trump would have sat on that if he had that on Biden or George Soros, who is a kind of liberal equivalent of Musk in terms of donations? Of course not.
No, they would release it and then the Democrats charge Hunter Biden with lying on a gun application.
No, but we, but we, but they showed how independent they were and
Right. And so this is where I'm like, we, this is why people don't like Democrats. Democrats are constantly going, "How can we talk to a Republicans?" And it's like, "Change your attitude." Your attitude needs to be, "How can we beat Republicans?" That needs to be your driving force. Trying to talk to them.
People say to me, "The Bidens and the Democrats didn't release the files because of Bill Clinton." I actually wish that were the case because that would actually show that they're like cynical rail politic operators. I don't think it's because of Bill Clinton. I actually think it's because of the, we need to be better than this integrity. We got to leave that. I think Merrick Garland, I've never said he was a bad person as a human being, but he was clearly the wrong person for that job in that time. He was completely, and he was a dereliction of duty because we needed an attorney general who was going to prosecute Trump from day one. We needed an attorney general who was going to do something about the Epstein files. I hate to say it, but the Republicans are right when they say, "You had these files for years and you didn't release them, you hypocrites." They're right about that, unfortunately.
Well, and there's a link between the Epstein files and January 6. And the through line is this: elites get away with everything. Uh, Biden's DOJ, Merrick Garland, charged the low-level, um, white trash, redneck people that were [ __ ] in the capital and breaking windows and beating up cops. These are not rich people. These are people that rich people paid to get them there. Yes.
And the same thing with the Epstein files. these rich people, whether you have a Democratic DOJ or a Republican DOJ, there is a lot of truth that when people say, "Well, what's the difference in between the two parties?" I used to piss me off as somebody who lived in an abortion ban in Oklahoma.
There's really a lot of truth to it.
The Obama DOJ did not prosecute the CIA torturers from George Bush dick Chinese era. Obama said, "Let's look forward, not back."
They didn't prosecute the bank bosses who gave us the worst financial crisis for 100 years. There was a bunch of people the Obama people let off, and then Biden comes in, and he puts Merrick Garland. I was at MSNBC at the time. MSNBC viewers and people were delighted. They thought this is such a genius move because no, not even sweet. It was like, look, the Republicans blocked him from the Supreme Court, but Biden put him at the DOJ. Haha, take that Republicans. We'll take it. He's a shitty AG, right? We could have had Sally Yates or Elizabeth Warren or Jamie Raskin or someone with some fire in their belly. Instead, you got mild-mannered Merrick Garland, who's minding his own business. Never saw him on any media. the opposite of Pam Bondi. And now we know that they had these freaking files.
That's
With this stuff in there, with stuff on Musk, with stuff on Trump, with stuff on Teal, with stuff on Steve Bannon. The entire MAGA LEADERSHIP
In our Netflix wife calling, emailing, hey, we're going to be by on our boat after everybody knew he was a pedophile. We have
Howard Lutnick says the ages of his kids in the email to Epste. What the [ __ ] is wrong with you?
Yeah, I call him, I call him Howard Nutlick. He's one of the most sickopantic people in the top of the saying a lot.
Did you see him in that Oval Office, uh, press conference, like the day after all of that was released? Yeah. And he's like, normally he's like, you know, just like a total, will laugh at anything.
I don't know what's worse, that you went and met Epste, but you lied about it knowing these emails are going to come out and you got caught, or that you went and met Epstein in and of itself, a convicted sex offender, and all these emails are from four or five years after he's been convicted already. or that when you went to me Epstein, you decided to tell them your kids' ages.
So weird.
[ __ ]
These people are weird. But but despite being mad at the Democrats again, when I set that aside,
The compromising information on that Epstein has with Israel and that he has with Russia. And my lingering question all of this time back when I watched Filthy Rich, the documentary, how does he have all this money? How does he have all this money? Well, now I know how he has all this money. He blackmailed everybody. He blackmailed uber rich people and has uh emails with Peter Tilliel. The most damaging one that I saw was when they're celebrating Brexit and talking about tribalism in this new world order. And these [ __ ] dorks,
They cannot put their name on a ballot and go run and change the world that way. They have to cheat.
Do you believe he's a Mossad spy?
Yeah, I do. There's a big effort in the media to say he's a Russian spy, which I think he's both, which he Ed Loose from the Financial Times, uh, interviewed him and he said exactly that point. There's no reason you can't be both. But it's interesting that our media is very keen to talk about Russia, but not Israel. That's taboo.
And since I've had, since I've had an awakening on this issue and become enlightened and I have, I'm woke and I have moral clarity on this issue. the uh Western media's lack of criticism towards Israel. Once you open up your eyes to it and you see it, oh my god, it's so
Especially with the Russia. For me, the Russia things are best of all because you have Ukraine, Russia playing out, the media are always happy to talk about Putin as a war criminal, Russian intelligence, Russian interference,
Kids getting kidnapped,
Hospitals being bombed in Ukraine, but they will never apply that framework, that language to Israel and Gaza. Well, you know what was the biggest thing for me when I really started researching this? That Benjamin Netanyahu funded Hamas.
Yes.
I mean, very reliable journalist, Israeli journalist said he stuck cash in cars and drove it
Suitcases. Yes.
From the Qataris and they, and the Qataris say, "Well, it was to fund Gaza." The Isra says he said it in a meeting with the Lud party. He said, "We did this to divide and rule, basically to prevent the Palestinian state by making sure there's two forces, two powers, and the Palestinians are never united." That was the essence of what he told his own party.
Then there's some people like in his administration that say some of the most psychopathic stuff I have ever heard in my life. And it's never covered in.
If it's covered, you know what people say? They say with a straight face, "Yeah, but that's the national security minister. That's not an important person." What? I remember when the tourism minister said we should nuke Gaza, and I remember talking about, and someone said, "Well, that's just the tourism minister." And I'm like, "Do we apply that at home?" Like, if if if Gina Rayondo, Joe Biden's commerce secretary, said, "Let's kill all the Jews." Would we be like, "Well, that's fine. It's just the commerce secretary."
I have the best compliment for you. I think one of the best communications regarding this issue is when you tweet or you post on social media and it's Laura Loomer or some Islamophobe that puts Muslims or Arabs and blah, blah, blah, and you just very simply say, "Reread this and replace."
Muslims with Jews. And I do it. The only way to get it every single time. It's a very simple messaging, but it makes so much sense to point out the double standard in that way.
People are blind to this one big, right? There are people in this country who are passionately against anti-black racism, passionate against anti-semitism, passionate against homophobia, but Islamophobia, that's justified. Or
I was kind of one of those people for a
And you have to do that. In fact, when I was a researcher in the UK on a documentary about, I want to say 20 years ago, we did this as an experiment. We took a reporter out to a shopping mall in a very right-wing conservative area, and we had him hold up news headlines with, um, "Blacks tell us how to run our schools," and people, people walk him up and go, "This is disgusting." And then we turn it around, it was actually a real headline said, "Muslims tell us how to run our schools," and we did that for each minority community and changed the words to gay, Jewish, black, and people were stunned. And that was the only way to get people in that area. These were not political people, but they understood the bigotry when it was black, Jewish, or gay, but not when it was Muslim. And I think the American media is still in that place right now.
No, I completely agree. I completely agree that it is. And I think that right now, finally, since the first time since 9/11, Gaza, it's kind of, it's unraveling that. And then you see politicians like Zoron Mandani, who is Muslim and progressive. And for me, who lived in Oklahoma, to know you that you're Muslim and progressive, I was pitched this propaganda.
You and Zon are not atheists, but we're progressives.
I know. But that I was pitched this propaganda that you were going to have 25 wives and, you know, it's jihad city, and it was, it wasn't that difficult. I, I just didn't get too curious about it because when you see these buildings blow up, at the time I was raising kids and stuff like this. But anyway,
The guys with multiple wives are the leaders of the MAGA movement. Elon Musk and Donald Trump. Let's just be
100%. And here's something I have to say. This is so important that I say this. The Christian Taliban is very [ __ ] real. what they're trying to do, the the right-wing Christian nationalists, the white evangelicals, it is every bit Sharia law, but in Oklahoma politicians, this is the funniest thing. I guess probably like 10 years ago, like, we're going to outlaw Sharia law.
Yes. I remember. I wrote a piece about it.
And I was just like, what are you, even? I was like, what are you talking about? Sharia law in Oklahoma?
It's insane. So, so two things. One is, I know you've been propagandist for many years. So Sharia law, first of Sharia means law. So law, law, law. It's of Sharia. So people, funny when people say Sharia law because it doesn't actually make sense when you translate Sharia. But Sharia law, what does it even mean? I did a debate on this. There is no book of Sharia law. It's an understanding of what Islamic Jewish prudence might be. Over the years, people differ about what it means. Like any courtroom and any legal system, people have different views.
When white conservatives say it, they mean chopping off heads and chopping off hands. That's what short, it's short, short code for that. That's not what Sharia is. a lot of Muslims every day when I go check the time to pray, that's Sharia law. There's nothing wrong with that. That's so, so the word itself has obviously been politicized and weaponized. And the Oklahoma thing is funny because I remember I wrote a piece, I was writing for the New States magazine, and I cited Oklahoma, not knowing that 15 years later I'll be sitting here with you, and I pointed out the time that the census showed that there were more people who identified as Jedi Knights in Oklahoma than as Muslims at the time.
That's the thing I remember. Here's the problem. When the Democrats abandon a 50-state strategy, you have Republican supermajorities, and all they have left to do is out-crazy each other.
Yes, that's so true.
That's all they have left to do because you don't have a candidate that's maybe a moderate Dem to to highlight how crazy they are themselves.
So, it's just this insane, like our attorney general, um, he recently tweeted, "They're building a new mosque in Tulsa, and I'm not going to tolerate this," and blah, blah, blah. And I did the Mehdi Hassan thing. I thought, change "mosque" with "synagogue" and reread it. Jennifer.
Or church for these guys. Yes.
If you said the Democrats are banning a church.
Yes. And so, you know, this is, I obviously, I don't care if it's Sharia law, if it's evangelical Christianity. You know how I stand as a secularist humanist. And also, by the way, secular for a lot of Muslims watching has negative connotations because they think it means anti-religion because people like Christopher Hitchens and Bill Maher have told them that there's a view of a secular country that is not anti-religion. It simply means that religion is not part of the state, and you're not imposing your religion on others. That is what I believe. I don't my religion on other people. I just don't want you to impose your views on me either. Um.
Before we finish, got to play a quick game with you.
Okay.
On your podcast, and I came on your show, you have this segment called Had It or Hit It.
Yes.
Um, we're talking about Democrats being useless. Uh, the 2028 race is coming up. I know you've interviewed a few people. We thought we'd combine your talents as a designer and as a political commentator now into a new game called Remodel or Retire.
So here we go.
Okay.
We got a list of Democrats. You tell me if they need a political remodeling or they just need to retire.
Okay.
Gavin Newsom.
Remodel.
Chuck Schumer.
Retire.
Buttigieg. This
Is a tough one. Remodel.
Harris.
Retire.
Josh Shapiro.
Retire.
AOC.
Perfect.
Okay. Perfect. JB Pritzker.
A slight renovation.
Slight. Hakeem Jeff.
Retire.
Retire.
Retire. Agree. He needs to retire.
I agree. This whole [ __ ]. He's younger than Schumer. So this makes him even worse. Retire. Um, are any of those people I just mentioned your pick for 2028?
That's so tough. I, I get asked this question all the time, and I haven't seen anybody that I think, oh my god, yes. Yeah.
I would pick JB Pritzker over, uh, Gavin Newsom because I think
JB Pritzker will evolve more on issues. I had him on the podcast recently.
And he,
I don't, he didn't say genocide, but he spoke about atrocities, and I think some Jewish people are starting to have an awakening, like they can't defend the indefensible anymore. I think that's happening, and I think for a lot of these people, they, too, their faith is really important to them, and it's very interwoven with Israel, and they're indoctrinated to believe that, but I think that, I mean, I don't.
You said AOC is perfect, but I'm assuming you're not seeing her as a presidential candidate because you think she would struggle to win at a national level. Is that your argument?
Hey, we, we ran two women and they lost, and I
You think it has to be a man next time?
I don't, I want that.
You think it has to be?
Kind of do.
It's funny because when Bernie was accused of saying that to Elizabeth Warren, you remember that in 2020?
He denies saying it, but Elizabeth Warren said, and people went nuts. And I remember at the time thinking, I don't know what happened between them. I like them both. I don't know what happened in that conversation.
But if he did say a version of what you said,
That I don't think a woman can be president, but a lot of Americans sadly do.
Is that misogyny? I don't know if that counts as misogyny. If you recognize the misogyny of others from a pragmatic perspective, does that make you a misogynist? I don't know the answer to that.
I don't know. I don't think about this in terms of misogyny because my heart and my mind is, oh my god, we've got to have women run, run the country.
I want that. But what I want to do more than anything is I want to beat Republicans. And so to be, you know, an armchair consultant here,
I worry about that now. But also, neither woman ran as a true populist progressive.
Neither one. Harris started a little bit well, and then by the time she got to the DNC, I believe her brother-in-law is accused of having had a negative influence. He's an Uber guy. She started, she dropped a lot of the popular economic populism.
And I thought when she first came out of the gate, she was doing a great job. I, I really like her as a person. Um, we did her book tour thing on stage. I like her. I think being a politician sucks. I think the compromise involved with it is awful, and I'm not incapable of doing that. What, when I, when I was upset with her was when she started trotting around with Liz Cheney, because Liz Cheney said lies that harm women in red states
About infanticide, false accusation. I remember that.
That lie, and to never atone for that feeds so much anti.
Never atone for Iraq.
Exactly. Well, and then on top of that, her dad was a total psychopath war criminal,
And he endorsed Carl Harrison. That was welcome to. Oh yeah. Well, I think you said retire Harris, so we're agreed on that. It needs to be someone different. We will see who it is. We will try and hold their feet to the fire.
I'm in the same boat as you. I think AOC would be ideal, but can she win 50?
I love her. Yeah.
Um, or should she run against Schumer and primary him? That's another interesting, uh, discussion. Would she be better in the Senate? She's very young. She could run for president another time.
I would love for her to be president.
Um, I mean, I, I agree. Politically, everyone knows that that's where my politics are. Um, we will see what happens, but I hope between now and 28, you and I will keep holding some of these Democrats' feet to the fire if they come on the shows. Uh, which they will, because they need an audience. They need to win the primary. We will have to leave it there. Make sure you like, subscribe to Zateo, wherever you get your podcast. Make sure you get We're Not Kidding. Make sure you get, um, Jennifer and Angie's amazing podcast. I've Had It. And, um, coming on the show, I'm Mandy Huston.
I'm Jennifer Welch.
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