Alain de Botton: What Does It Really Take to Find and Maintain Love Today?

Welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm... I was actually a bit nervous about this one because you are a big name that I... that I can't... that you can't pronounce comprehensibly. I also feel like it's super easy to talk to, so I was also very excited about this.

Good. I'm easy to talk to. And for the audience that might not be familiar with your work, would you be able to share a little bit about who you are and how you got into the work you do?

Yes, so, um, I've been a writer for most of my professional life. And the topics that really interest me are love, relationships, psychology, um, you know, how we work, how we don't work, why we suffer. And then about 10 years ago, I started something called The School of Life, which is an organization devoted to emotional well-being. And we do lots of things. We've got a YouTube channel, and we, we put out lots of content, and, um, all kinds of things. We're kind of a home for emotional intelligence.

On a good day, I feel like The School of Life was so ahead of its time. How did you decide that that's what you wanted to do and create?

Um, I just wanted to not be alone with all the stuff that I care about. I wanted a, a team. Um, so on a personal level, yes. I mean, there's a sort of thought that if you've got something interesting to say, you should write a book, you know, and that should be it. And I always thought, well, why couldn't a book also be a community, a home, um, a group of people pushing in a certain direction, um, you know, a brand, if you like. Um, um, and so we're kind of a brand around emotional intelligence.

Um, but, yeah, I think you also technology is making it ever easier for people to do that. You, you could have your own, own little studio, your own little broadcasting hub, etcetera, which is fantastic.

But do you think that that it's not quite the same as actual human connection, sitting down?

Yes, I mean, we also do retreats. We also, you know, take people away. We, um, I agree. You know, particularly post-COVID, it's, it's lovely for people to meet in the flesh. And, um, we're ramping up that side of things as well. Um, so, yes, I think, I, I find that people, what people are longing for is two things: understanding, understanding themselves and others, and then also connection. You know, and it's, they're slightly different things. Understanding, you, you could get in your bedroom looking at a film or reading a book. Uh, connection, you've got to get out and, you know, actually, um, say hello.

And do you feel like we've got the balance right of that at the moment, or not so much in society?

Yeah. Uh, no. I mean, it's, it's striking how whenever sort of architects, planners, politicians talk about community spaces, um, what they really mean is places where there are lots of people. What they tend not to mean is places where lots of people can talk to one another, let alone discover meaningful things about one another. Do you know what I mean? I mean, in an average sort of piazza in a, in a, in an English town, you're not going to go up to a stranger and, um, have anything like a meaningful conversation. You may notice that you're not alone on the planet, but there's a big difference between that and any kind of deeper connection. And it's, it's a pity because if you give people any sort of encouragement, they will go for it. You know, they will deepen things and create the space for it. Yeah.

But, but you need, you need a little bit of encouragement. I mean, you know, we know on trains, you've got the quiet carriage. And when it says quiet, on a good day, people are quiet. But if you had, you know, the chatty carriage, people, people might chat. Um, or the talk-to-a-stranger carriage, people would, you know, whatever's on the, whatever's on the, the billboard, people will tend to follow. But, but public space is, is generally silent space, anonymous space, especially in cities like London, you know, where everyone on the commute is just, yeah, completely silent. No one's even making eye contact.

Yeah, because, you know, there are reasons why, um, people don't want to be stalked, people don't want to be bothered, people don't want to be intruded upon. You know, there is such a thing as intrusion, of course, there is. And so, but it's, it's surely a balance between a fear of intrusion and a fear of, you know, dying completely alone. And I think we're more towards, you know, the latter danger.

Uh, we've forgotten, but scale of the risk, I would say that we're, we're a lot better at the understanding piece. Yes, I think we are. Hugely building up a vocabulary of, um, of of terms to describe some of the, you know, crazy stuff that that we do and that other people do. And I think that psychotherapy's had a, a really big role in that, in in equipping people with words.

Um, I do have a bit of a quibble with some of the way in which that goes. That, you know, you can, you can sometimes feel that everybody's pathologizing everybody else. So that everybody else is toxic, it's got red flags, narcissist is a narcissist, uh, you know, it's borderline, etcetera, etcetera. And these are, these are words that have come from the clinic. And, you know, I just think they get wielded around a bit too much. And I think what I mean by too much is, it can feel sometimes that by the time you've excluded every last red flag person, um, from your life, it's fantastic. You'll have no trouble, but you'll be completely alone.

So, I think we all have our red flags. We all, I mean, human beings are all slightly nutty. Um, and, you know, and I mean that benevolently. Um, you included, me included. We all, we all are struggling with things. And so, you know, one's always right if you say so and so's got this or got that, whatever, you know, probably you're right. But, um, is it any use pointing it out? I mean, you know, imagine a world in which what we're really trying to do is to manage our imperfection rather than just point them out. We're trying to work out how to live among imperfections, our own and those of others, rather than simply going, "That one's got an imperfection." I mean, think of, think of us with our physical appearance, right? Imagine if there was an industry devoted to pointing out how ugly most people are. Most people. Yeah, exactly. "Oh, that one's got..." "Oh, that one's eyes are a bit..." "Oh, you've seen that ears a bit droopy," whatever it is. Um, and we think that was, we think that was kind of not just mean, but also a bit senseless. What's the point? Because we think, well, they can't really change, and it just is what it is. And so it's just inflaming people to get angry about something. And the same thing could apply at points to the psychological sphere, where again, we, we take a bit too much to line going, "Oh, look, that one's got a, oh, that one's got a thing there, a borderline thing going on." It's like, well, okay, fine. What have you got going on? What, what have we all got going on? We're all struggling with things.

Well, I also think because that the focus is often on the other, especially in the context of dating and relationships, we're not, we're not inspecting our own behaviors quite as much as we are trying to give the other person some sort of, uh, disorder.

That's right. That's right. We, we're labeling the other one as, um, as, as mad. And not just mad, because that's too casual. We're giving them a clinic, a clinical description of their pathologies. And, um, and then saying, you know, "Good riddance, and we're free now." And, and, you know, there's that sort of narrative of, of, of liberation. "It's like, you discover your partner is a DHDH, and and and then you're going to push them out, and now you're free, and you can value yourself, and you have worth, and you can love yourself." Then what? Um, you know, after that heady moment, what we're then stuck in a world in which most people are laboring under various kinds of pathological behavior, we included. So that's what we, we're dealing with. And, and, and I think that's what, that's the myth that, you know, Instagram therapy doesn't want us to listen to.

Mhm. And in that, because I really want us to dive into relationships and love, and if we can kind of take it a little bit back, because the world that we're living in now, and the way that we are dating and interacting with one another is so different from the way that it used to be, not only because of technology, but also because of what we're looking for in relationships. So would you be able to take us back in terms of how that has evolved? Because I feel like people feel this huge amount of pressure now to find the right person, but we have all of this stuff going on, and we also don't recognize that we're, we're quite, we're the first in doing it in many ways.

Yes, that's right. I mean, we can, we can feel compassion for ourselves for the scale of our ambitions and also, uh, the lack of preparation for them. You know, we, we, we've, we've set up expectations and haven't really built the, the, um, the structure behind those expectations which could help us to deliver on them. So just to sketch it, I mean, look, for most of human history, people didn't marry for love. They married for convenience, for dynastic reasons, because, you know, your field was next to their field, or they had a plow and you had an ox, and that was a good match. So it was really irrespective of the emotions of the participants. And, you know, that obviously had all sorts of problems, and, you know, a lot of art and literature is, is pointing out the tensions of that. You know, your, your heart is in one place, but necessity in society is in another. And it's really because of this unhappiness that the modern world, which is, you know, say 200 years old, um, arrives at what we now call romantic love, which is a very different way of approaching relationships. And that's the idea that that you should follow broadly your heart, your emotions, your feelings, and that those feelings shouldn't be interrogated too much. It's, it's wherever your heart takes you. If your heart takes you to this person, well, that, that's the person you should marry. And so the narrative becomes one about, um, uh, you know, sudden transports of love, the crush gets becomes elevated, something, you know, you, you see somebody on a train and then you have to follow them, and, you know, they could be your destiny, etcetera. So a tremendous reverence for, um, a kind of intuition. Intuition will lead you to something amazing. And that's the way we've been doing it for, for a while.

Um, which is beautiful and romantic. It's beautiful and romantic. I've got a problem with the word romantic. Everything that's romantic is not romantic. By that, I mean...

What do you mean by that?

If we redefine romantic as actually conducive to love, conducive to the maintenance and success of love, most things we consider romantic are not romantic.

Like what?

Well, for example, you know, if you sat down with a lover, um, that you were thinking of getting together with, and you started discussing your finances, you started saying, "Okay, well, how much money we going to need to live? What, what do you make, and what do I make? What, how's that going to work?" This would immediately be labeled an unromantic conversation. Um, because the, the kind of the, uh, the ideology which we sail under is, "Money's unromantic, and feeling wins everything." So, you know, to stop, you know, Romeo and Juliet from, you know, doing whatever they want to do, and asking them, you know, "What's your income?" is highly strange. I mean, you pick this up in the novels of Jane Austen. Jane Austen's writing at a really interesting time when, you know, the older system of, of, of dating and and marriage is, is, is eroding. There's the beginnings of the love way of doing it, and and Austin is literally kind of poised between the two. And so she's always interested in telling her readers how much her characters earn. Um, you know, there she literally that says, you know, um, "So-and-so, you know, he was worth whatever it is, you know, 20 pounds a year," or, you know, old money. Um, and, and, and that's for her a very vital thing. And it's not that she's arguing that people should marry for money. She's arguing quite sensibly that to ignore totally the financial basis of a relationship is is foolish. Um, those who only pay attention, uh, to money also come in, get into trouble. So in her novels, anyone who marries for money is in trouble. But anyone who doesn't look at money is also in trouble. So it's a very interesting thing. And, and we would consider Austen a bit unromantic. I don't think she's unromantic at all. She's, she's really interested in how relationships succeed. And one of the ways in which they succeed is if someone's worrying about the money. That's one of the. But you see what I mean about, yeah, but un, unromantic things that are actually quite important.

Another thing, you know, that seems quite unromantic is, is psychology, psychological background. I mean, if on an early dinner date, you started probing at the attachment style of your partner, would be quite effective in, you know, knowing what's going to come up. It'd be, it'd be rather interesting. Again, that could be thought of as, you know, "You interviewing me," or, you know, "This is, this is not very romantic." Um, but, but, but these things are are cautionary. It doesn't sound very romantic to work out a rota for who's going to clean the bathroom. But once you get that done, um, a lot of good things can flow. And, you know, so, so things like routine, money, psychological exploration, all put in the unromantic category, but actually these things are quite useful at fostering love.

I understand that. But if we're looking at the difference between falling in love and being in love, because I think they are quite different things, and because everything tends to be quite feeling-based at the moment, in terms of how we meet people, going with our heart, all the things that you said, what do you think the art of actually dating and getting someone to fall in love with you, you fall in love with them, like, and then we'll kind of go into the more maintenance around a relationship, because they feel like they're very different things?

Yeah. I mean, look, it's not just a friendship. Relationships are not just friendships. There is a, a biological, sexual basis to them. Um, unfortunately, because it, it means that we're trying to do, you know, some of the reason why relationships are complicated is we're trying to do so many things in them. Um, you know, the best friend, the sexual partner, the, you know, the child raiser, the confidant, blah, blah, blah, on and on, on the list goes. Um, but I think that, um, even if we accept, okay, we're going to need a complicated candidate, um, the physical does have a role that I think we ignore at our peril. I mean, sometimes people try and say, "I'm an intelligent person. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm not interested in looks," or "I'm not going to, I'm not going to think about those things. Those things are lower things." Um, "I'm just not going to bother." And I can understand the sentiment. You know, in a way, who wants to think about that? That's that's very, it's very counter to our higher aspirations, which is that we should give everybody their due, um, as, as, you know, mental beings, and we shouldn't consider really their, their physical dimensions or how we feel about the physical dimensions. But I think that's rather like saying, um, you know, "Sleep is silly." Um, "Why would we sleep? Why would we bother sleeping?" It's like, well, you know, "Try that at your peril." You know, you're going to be some consequences. Or, or someone, you know, who climbs a mountain and says, uh, you know, "Good shoes for the birds. I don't really, you know, I don't need to bother." So we can be, um, foolhardy in in ignoring things. So, yes, we, we exist partly as these biological, embodied creatures, and, and we shouldn't and can't ignore that. And it narrows our room for maneuver. It, it really does. It means that, you know, show somebody 100 candidates, and simply on at the sort of biological, physical level, they'll rule out, they'll have to rule out a huge number of those, um, for reasons that defy conscious understanding. They go, "I don't know why this person is not interesting to me. I, I just, I can't tell."

Now, there is also a kind of therapeutic, psychotherapeutic sort of explanation behind this, which is that, I mean, the story goes that the way in which we love as adults is always following in the tracks laid down by experiences in childhood. So we, we first learn about love as children, and depending on how that experience of love goes, um, so our, our approach to adult love will, you know, will be shaped one way or another. And, you know, the narrative that we have is, the more that early love is tempestuous, difficult, frustrating, unkind, in in some way, fall short of our hopes, um, the more we'll approach adult love with fear. That we will think, "I won't just be repeating something nice. I might be repeating something painful." And that explains a really puzzling thing about love, which is that though we think of ourselves collectively as a species always looking for love, "I'm, I'm looking for more love," the songs are about wanting love, etcetera, the truth is much, much more complicated. A big part of many, many of us is devoted to pushing love away. It's kind of odd, right? We, we're as interested in not having love as we are in having love. It's, it's, it's too much of a coincidence that there are so many people whose relationships collapse, who are on their own, who, as it were, can't find a partner. Um, it could all seem like a sad coincidence of people who, um, desperately want love, and then it just, it just collapsed. Very often, if you scratch below the surface, what you, what you'll find is people who have been scarred by love, normally in childhood, and in adulthood have serious mixed feelings about making love work. On the one hand, they'd love to be close. On the other, closeness freaks them out. They want someone in their life, at the same time, they feel engulfed if somebody is too present. And so, you know, we, we're not understanding love if we simply see ourselves as creatures who want to get ever closer to someone else. We are as interested in maintaining boundaries and distance between ourselves and others. And almost always, the more childhood was arduous and difficult, the more distance we're going to need from our adult partners in order to feel safe.

And this really, we're going into attachment theory, or do you feel that that's quite universal for human beings? That as much as we want and crave that connection, we're also in different ways going to push it away?

Look, attachment theory, you know, was one of the great developments of 20th century psychology. Hugely useful. And it's now spread out into the world. And, you know, people on dinner dates will talk about their attachment styles. And thank goodness. I mean, it's a good thing. Um, it's a great thing because it gives people a language with which to discuss fear. Because really, what attachment theory is about is that people are afraid of love. They are, they are as, as excited about love as they're afraid of love. And, you know, that that classic distinction between the avoidant person and the anxious person, go one level below that. Um, both the anxious and the avoidant person are afraid of love. Um, they're afraid of proximity. They just handle that fear differently. Uh, the avoidant by moving away, the anxious by getting angry and pulling somebody near with with forcefulness. Um, but it's the same thing below the surface. There's a narrative. And the narrative goes something like this: "If I get close to someone, bad stuff will happen because it's happened before in childhood." In childhood.

So I was listening to something that was saying that it actually starts from when we're, we're babies, and that we will have a way of responding to our parents if they leave the room and come back in. You know, the anxious will continue to cry, whereas the avoidant might not make any noise at all. Do you think that it's that early on, or do you think it's more a product of our childhood experiences over time and learned behavior?

I just don't have the experience. But my, my hunch would be that whatever proclivities might be there almost from birth are then amenable to change depending on, you know, what happens. And, you know, attachment styles continue to evolve. I mean, an attachment style is, is really a style, and styles can be changed by, by experience. You know, you, if you have a succession of relationships which, um, constantly reinforce that people can't be relied upon, um, you may become more avoidant or more anxious. If you have a succession of relationships that enforces the idea that people can be trusted, you will, you know, develop security.

And what about sort of someone that goes from one to the other in the same relationship? The fearful avoidant?

Yes. I mean, you know, in human nature, I think we fill in the gaps that, that exist in situations. It's like if someone's very angry, um, often you can't have two people who are angry. So one person monopolizes the, the angry space, and then the other one has to, almost, you know, willingly or not, adopt a quieter position. You see this in, in, in families where, let's say, there's a, one very angry parent, um, none of the children can ever express their anger because the, the space has been monopolized. Um, so in a functioning relationship, um, ideally, no one should hog too much of, you know, any one position. Um, what marks out healthy relationships is flexibility. If you think of it as a tennis court, people are able to move around the court and and hit balls from different angles, you know, and, and things get very rigid if someone's always got to be right by the net, or someone's always got to be way back. Like mobility.

So in terms of dating and the world that we live in today with dating apps, and so many people, like you said, wanting connection, wanting to find love, and going out into the world, and perhaps they're really putting themselves out there, but they're just falling short. How do you think we can kind of combine, I guess, some of the perhaps older ways with today, and balancing the feeling-based, the heart-led, with the more rational and aware parts of ourselves?

I mean, look, first, a shout out for anyone who is going on the dating rigmarole. It's, it's an immensely emotionally taxing, um, event, really. Which then, it's been before? Well, I mean, you know, it's still relatively new. Um, but I think if one thinks of what a date is, it's essentially, you know, an interview for the most significant role in, in your life. And to, to do this week after week, as as many people do these days, uh, is very emotionally taxing because, um, you're likely to discover all sorts of really unpleasant things. Someone you like the look of doesn't want you. Hugely unpleasant. Um, someone who you thought might be the answer turns out not to be the answer. Um, and, and on and on it goes. I mean, there, there are, there are very few good possibilities. Um, someone who initially seems good may then reject you. Um, someone who you initially thought was great, after two weeks, turns out not to be, etcetera. So you, you really have to keep a handle on hope. At the same time, that's like saying you have to keep a handle on your appetite when you go in a restaurant. I mean, it's like, you're there to eat. So it's, it's very hard both to date and not have hope that the date may work out. So there's a huge, I mean, dates are often seen as almost sort of jokey subjects. They're seen as, you know, sort of, "I know someone's dating," and there's a kind of carnival feel to the whole thing. It's, it's deeply traumatic for people. And, um, and no wonder that it points people will stop. They, they'll say, "I can't take it anymore." And I think what they're saying is, um, "It's too difficult. These cycles of of hope and disappointment are are too difficult." Um, and, and the chances of, you know, someone right coming along are too small, given the emotional toll. Um, and this is a very poignant moment. And, you know, there really is no easy answer because what we're, what we're doing is meeting a very non-negotiable human need for connection with others. I mean, this is very hardwired in us. Meets very high criteria. In other words, we can't meet that need with just anyone. Meets very limited and intermittent supply. So you've got very difficult set of, uh, features coming together. And, and, and what's more, people are quite alone with this. It's something that they undertake alone. So a lot of isolation around this. So, so no wonder people are sad. And you get, you know, outbursts where people go, "Never again." Um, it's quite understandable.

Do you think that there's anything that we could do differently though, in terms of equipping ourselves with tools or practices? Because I also think that, you know, people go into the dating landscape, and perhaps they do have a lot of hope, and they have expectations of how it's going to go, and they really like that person, they're very attracted to them, they have a lot of feeling towards them initially, but they might not be getting the same energy back, but they keep pursuing it because they're basing it on how they, how that person makes them feel. Perhaps that person is making them feel anxious, but they're sort of attributing that to something positive because they can't stop thinking about it.

I mean, look, the, the overall truth is is hopeful. But we can't, we haven't yet learned to capitalize on it. I believe that there really is, on a planet of 8 billion people, um, a suitable match for pretty much anyone. There really is. Yeah. Um, uh, but, and it's a huge but, um, the methods of connecting people are still unreliable. So most of what we call dating apps are closer to roulette machines. In in the sense that they know that they are not doing their utmost to maximize the lives of those who are on them. Um, they have a lot of information about who would go with whom that they're choosing not to to divulge for one simple reason: that if they did that, people would be off the app very quickly. And some people would leave the app because the app has not recruited the right number of people for them, so they're not, they're never going to be happy. But the app doesn't want to admit that because then people would leave. So it's, um, it's a calculated gamble. Um, and it works for some people, like casinos work for some people. And that's why we keep going to the casino, because we've seen some people where it works. Some people have won. Yeah, some people have won. And think, "Oh, well, then I could win." And, but, but, but the numbers are hedged. So ultimately, the casino owner always wins. And they're not that interested in, as it were, the happiness of the people who, who are using them. So, but if we were running the Utopia, uh, uh, what we would do is have everyone on the planet, um, registered, and not just psychologically understood at depth, and a supercomputer would then really properly work out who has the best chance of being with whom. And the answer would then arrive for people in a, in a dispassionate, you know, non-commercialized way. Um, but then we're talking about something completely different, closer to almost a medical intervention where, you know, blood types are aligned, etcetera. So we could be doing it much better. But as I say, um, the frustration that people experience is a commercially mandated frustration. And it, it could be avoided. And, you know, there's room for entrepreneurs, more benevolent entrepreneurs, to get to grips with this, because that is how people are meeting these days. And that's going to continue to be. And, and look, I mean, in a way, um, the app world has made an enormous advance on the old world, where, you know, what was there? The party. And the party is a hugely random way of trying to encounter someone. I mean, the fact that you would, you know, gather, you know, someone's gathered 200 of their best friends, um, you, and, and you're trying to find somebody who's, you know, the compatible age, compatible stage of life, by by going to talk to them. You know, the mountain is very steep. I mean, there are some people who thrive in that environment, but very many, um, would be, you know, highly defeated. So, so the app is a, a much better first step. And it, it fits in with other, um, you know, digital connecting tools. I mean, um, we now know that, you know, on LinkedIn, you know, you'll find a much higher chance of finding somebody who's in the right industry, blah, blah, blah, than if you were to walk out in the road and go to a party.

Um, well, as in LinkedIn for dating? Or no, LinkedIn for business?

LinkedIn for business. Um, so I'm saying that that the internet is very good at, you know, if you're looking for light bulbs. Um, it was a nightmare. Go to light bulb shop to light bulb shop. I had to find a slightly unusual light bulb. You put it in, and, you know, hey presto, there's a shop somewhere far away with just that light bulb. I mean, that's amazing. That's, that's the power of the internet to make connections over pretty rare things. And so it's no wonder that, you know, entrepreneurs got in on the dating field. But, but we're just at the beginning of knowing how to handle that technology maximally effectively.

Yeah, I, because I'm quite a hopeless romantic and like the idea of fate, which I guess doesn't really tie in to the apps. But then I was thinking recently about dating reality shows, and in a way, that's what they're doing is that they're really considering the psychology of a person. They've interviewed them thoroughly, and they're put them or placing them with these people, and kind of doing these social experiments. But what we can see is people are falling in love off the back of that. You know, there has been quite a lot of success when you've got a pretty small number of people that they're putting together. So what does that tell us? You know, kind of in a way, it's unromantic because I think it takes away this idea that there's, you know, fate involved. Or you could argue otherwise. But for me, it does. And that actually, it's some producers or perhaps psychologists or whoever they have in the background going, "Okay, if we put this person with this person after screening thousands, we think there's a high probability that they're going to have chemistry and perhaps fall in love, and it's going to be great entertainment."

Yeah. Yes. And I think that that should give you hope. Because I think what you're calling romantic in in this sense is something heartfelt, spontaneous, etcetera. And I think what we're saying is, get all the background stuff right, screen the psychology, get people aligned on, you know, all their needs, and you will find, hey presto, that all that stuff that you like and see as spontaneous will arise. Look, think about it as agriculture. So think about strawberries, right? So we all love wild strawberries. And it's lovely. You, you going for a walk and then you, you see a bush and there's some wild strawberries, and they're absolutely delicious and succulent. And you think, "How lovely that nature just provides these." Then along comes somebody goes, "Let's put this on a sure footing. Let's get more of these for more people. Let's, let's start agriculture. Let's lay out some rows of of strawberries." And you grow these things. And, you know, on the one hand, the good side is lots more strawberries. Downside is they taste bland and kind of hollow and and like cardboard. And you think, "Mmm, I much prefer the wild strawberries." Now, we know that neither of these two options is is ultimately where we want to be. Because the wild strawberries, though delicious and succulent, um, there just aren't enough of them. It's too rare. You're giving too much to chance. And the mass manufactured agricultural things are too bland and too, too cold, as it were. Um, and what we want is something in between. And I think in agriculture, we are learning, horticulture is a learning how to do this, how to, um, create, you know, mass-produced strawberries that have some of the qualities of a wild strawberry. But this requires intense scientific effort, um, and intense study of tastes and, you know, all sorts of things. So, so that gives us a model for, um, you know, the old world, the pre-industrial world, the world of intuition, the world of chance, had many charming things. Old buildings that, you know, an artisan just put up and think, "Oh, what a, what a lovely cozy cottage," or a table built by, you know, an unschooled carpenter that just has a tactility that's that's amazing. Um, you know, we know lots of things. The homemade, the homespun, that the chance that were great. We've moved into a, a technological industrial world that who many of whose products seem cold, alien, unhealthy, um, barren, empty. Um, and so there's terrific nostalgia. "Let's go back." We can't really go back. But I think what we can do is, is think deeper about how, with the tools of modernity, we can stop accepting the substandard, mass-produced, bland offerings of, you know, 20th century science and technology to aim for something more individuated, um, closer to our real passions. And I think, you know, where you described, um, you know, these, these reality shows that help people to fall in love, you know, in a way that's almost a synthesis. It's a synthesis between passion and technology. Um, so you're not getting just a technological cardboard relationship, U, but nor are you, nor are you having to wait around on the train station of love for a train for, for most of your life. Life. And, you know, let's not forget how many people in the pre-modern world just waited and waited and waited and died alone. You know, so it wasn't working perfectly. Um, it, it worked for a very few people, and those people were celebrated in art and poetry and music, and that's why we hear about them. But for everyone who, you know, found their love, um, by chance, you know, in the bookshop, um, there would be legions of people, uh, sitting at home, dying alone. That's pretty miserable.

Well, it, it's, it's a sign of, um, what we've got work cut out. And that's exciting thing. You know, there's stuff to be done on an individual level. If someone's listening to this, and they have dating fatigue, they're putting themselves out there, they don't feel like they're getting anywhere, and they feel like it's more, you know, the strawberries that are bland and have no taste. How can they, what can they learn about themselves that equips them with the the knowledge to go, "This is actually what I really need in a partnership versus what I'm being drawn to because of a pattern of behavior that might not even be that healthy?" Or, you know, just to be better on the initial dating stage so that they don't waste their time.

I mean, look, if someone is discouraged, I think, I think I would start somewhere slightly different. With all due respect, I, I would start with, um, acknowledging that what they are doing is hugely complicated. And therefore, their pain is entirely legitimate. Of course, you're feeling down. Um, it's what you, what you're putting yourself through is incredibly arduous. It looks simple, "Oh, I just downloaded, you know, an app and just been flicking through, you know, no particular, no." You're putting yourself through an emotional roller coaster. It's, you, you're doing, um, one of the more difficult emotional maneuvers that is possible to do in life. And so therefore, give yourself some credit. And, you know, look after yourself because it's not easy. No wonder, you know, think, "Oh, you know, I swiped whatever, left, right on, you know, 20 people, and I had a chat, and then I got ghosted, and now I'm depressed." Um, no wonder. No wonder. This is, this is very difficult. You know, it, we have a language where we think that's easy. It's not really, really tricky. So, you know, as the old thing goes, be kind to yourself. You are putting yourself through something difficult. Space it out. You know, make sure you're not doing this all the time because you need something else. You need reminders of your, you know, legitimate existence outside of this. Um, and that, that may require some breaks. Um, as for the kind of particular thing of, um, getting more accurate, I think you're saying getting more accurate about what you, what you want. Um, I mean, I think very often, we don't tend to ask ourselves sharply enough what really it is that, who we are, what we, what we require. And so we kind of slightly like everybody, um, uh, or, or like no one, as it were. We're not, we're not zeroing in enough on the sorts of things that seem to matter. And say, the apps don't necessarily make it easy for us. Um, I think something that, you know, I've heard works very well is for people, instead of rushing out to go and meet people in the physical space, is to set up phone calls, video calls, just not have to leave the house until they're a bit more sure of how they're feeling about things.

Cuz making that investment, I guess.

Yes. Yes. But, but as I say, I think the key thing is, it's a very difficult, uh, thing. But then, you know, once you do meet someone, it also pays to know the questions to ask. I mean, you know, we're talking about attachment theory. Many relationships fall apart because of certain incompatibilities in people's style of loving. And if we know a bit about our own style, if we know what kind of style would make us happy, um, you know, we're going to be saving ourselves time. I mean, here are some things, you know, at The School of Life, we always recommend that people should ask people on an early dinner date. Should probably by the end of the date, should say, "So, how are you mad to their to their partner?"

I like that. And it's an interesting question because if someone goes, "Mad? I'm not mad at all. What do you mean?" You think, "Oh my goodness, okay. This is something. They're really mad." Yeah. Um, but if they laugh and they say, "Oh, yeah, okay. I'll tell me. I'll tell you if you tell me." Okay, good, good. They're at ease with the fact that we're all a little bit unhinged. And, you know, we don't need people to be perfect. We don't need our, our dates, our partners, our lovers to be perfect. What we do need is that they have some handle on the scale of their imperfection, and awareness of their flaws, some awareness of their flaws, some ability to step back occasionally and go, "Okay, oh God, I, you know, I do that thing." Um, and, and, and therefore to prepare the partner for some of the challenges. There's an enormous difference between, you know, saying, "I, you know, when you come too close, I sometimes get a bit nervous. Need a bit of time on my own." That's might be a hard message to hear. It's a lot easier to hear than someone who just goes, "No, I just needed to go to the library." That's fine. What, what are you complaining about? Yeah, it's like, "Oh gosh, that's a defensive acting out." And the other is an explanation. And this is where, if there's any, if there's any hope about people who have more and more relationships, because sometimes you can think, "The more relationships I have, you know, the further I get from anything." If, if experience, if we're to make a case for experience, it is that experience gives us more of an opportunity to, um, understand bits of ourselves that, you know, every, every relationship should be gifting you some insights. I mean, there should be an exit interview from from relationships where, you know, someone's dumping a very short-lived one. Sure. Someone's dumping someone. If we could bear it, if we could bear it, even if we're being abandoned, we should, we should turn to our partner and say, "Look, I'm not going to get offended, but just tell me, what, what could I learn? What do you think? Because you, you know, you've been around me very intensely for five years, six months, three weeks, whatever it is. But, you know, you've seen me. Are there things that you could tell me about me that might help me?" It's quite a confronting question, but such a useful question, especially if the answer could be delivered with a certain diplomacy and, you know, necessary gentleness, but at the same time, truth. You know, you could say, "You have a slightly over-excited manner, which then leads to disappointment," or, you know, "You're so reserved that actually it leads the other person to, whatever." And, you know, in life, we rarely, rarely get feedback on who we really are. Our friends can't be bothered. They, you know, why, why would they get involved in, you know, that kind of feedback? Offices, they're just keen to avoid a lawsuit. So if they're getting rid of, they'll, they'll, they'll give us some bland thing. I mean, very, you know, our parents, they, they just want a nice easy time with us. They, you know, they're blinded by their affections for it. So, so very rarely does someone say, "You know, this is what you really like." Well, sometimes in relationships, people say that to each other, but it's midnight, they've had too much to drink, they're shouting, and they say, "You're a stupid idiot." That's not going to help either. I'm talking here about a really thoughtful, kindly, well-meant, but nevertheless true analysis of the complexities of someone's nature. We would benefit enormously.

I completely agree. Because also on that, how I have a couple of things that I wanted to ask you. But in terms of dating and having that kind of radical honesty quite early on, where is the balance? Because I feel a lot of people, you know, we do approach it like it's a bit of an interview. We present our best selves. We want the person to like us. So we often, without even realizing, are adjusting ourselves in subtle ways, and perhaps not really being honest about what we want. And I speak to a lot of people, especially because dating is so complex these days, because there's so many different ways that people are dating, you know, it's, it's less black and white as it used to be. And then people are kind of molding themselves with like, "Oh, well, yeah, maybe I could do polyamory." You know, and like, sort of trying to fit into these shapes and sizes that just aren't what they really want. So at what point should they be that honest?

I mean, it's such a good point. Caring people away, right? It's such a good question. Because, you know, when you've been in a relationship for a certain amount of time, I remember joking to an ex-partner, "Gosh, if I'd said this to you early on, you would have run for the hills." And it was compl, I can't remember what it was, but it was completely unthreatening in the context of a long-established relationship. They didn't mind at all. It was, you know, quite funny. I don't know what it was, some personal habit or something. But, but if, if I'd said that on the first date, you know, they would have run for the hills. They, they would run away. So, so it is about sequencing things. And I think there can almost be a, you know, we talked about the desire for love not to work. There can be a way in which we scupper love, um, by giving, you know, almost by by instinct that we, we don't want a relationship to flourish. And one of the ways in which we stick a, um, a stick in the, in the wheels, poke a stick in the wheels, is that we, we say something that will frighten the other person. That, that there isn't enough basis for reassurance. Because we're all the time thinking, sorry, we're all the time thinking, "At least one bit of our mind is, is this person too unbalanced? Too crazy? Dangerous?" In in some way. And, um, we need a certain amount of.

It's time to pass to reassure someone that we're basically, you know, um, okay. And then we can come out with a serial killer joke. And then we can, you know. But if you come out with a serial killer joke in the first minute, I mean, it may not, not be that funny. May not be that funny because we really, you know, it could be a serial killer. So, so it is about, uh, context. But, but look, you, you're right. There is a kind of dance of, of, of, of honesty because, um, you know, we only exist in relationships ultimately in order to be as much of ourselves as, as possible. We, we want to bring key bits of ourselves to be witnessed and seen by others. Um, it's impossible to be at once intimate and, you know, totally private, locked away in oneself. You, you can't. Intimacy is the, the mutual revelation of one's kind of true self. And so that's going to require some courage and honesty. Um, and I think, you know, again, a bit of experience can help here. Sometimes we're in danger of thinking that the thing that's really private in me has no echoes in anyone else. I'm, I was born, you know, like a Martian, totally alone in, on this planet. No one feels what I'm feeling. Um, and I think this is something that comedians, uh, understand very well. You know, a lot of comedy is based on a daring bet that what's in you is actually in the other person as well. And so the comic will say, you know, how it is when you go to a service station and dot dot dot. And no one's mentioned it, and it seems a bit like, oh, that's a bit weird. Yeah, it's true. I, I too do that weird thing. You know, I do that thing too. And you think, lovely. You know, and you laugh. And because it's unifying. Yes. But also, but also it's clever that they've, they've been in touch enough with themselves, the comic, and they've also been in touch enough with, with other people to know that beneath a kind of guarded, anonymous world, a lot of what's in me is in you. And, and if I can just bring it out with skill, you'll laugh, you'll be reassured, etc. And so dating has that similar requirement of, of like, okay, I, you know, I mean, it's, it's what makes people charming. You know, it's an art, really. It is an art. It is an art. It is an art. It's, it's an art of daring to, to think that what's in you has an echo in the other person. And even despite any evidence. I mean, imagine someone on a date who who just goes, um, something like, um, probably we both want to get out and go and buy some Maltesers and, and go to the park. At this point, what actually, you know, on offer was a slightly stodgy dessert or something. And, and actually they put their finger, yeah, it's true. We've been sitting down too long. Yeah, we do want to, we do want to get some sweets. And good grief, that sounds really fun. It's actually, it really fits in. If, if this were my best friend, that's what I would want to do. That's what I'd feel relaxed enough about doing. But, but the person has imagined that and is, is taking you somewhere where you'd been too hemmed in. And that's, that's lovely. That's along the path of intimacy. And I guess the fear and risk with that is that you're going to say something thinking that the other person has that same madness or that same internal, and they don't. But, but at that point, you're going to save yourself some time. So there is, you know, um, there is a virtue in taking a risk. Um, because really, what you'll be doing, I mean, you know, being true to yourself, really. Yeah. I mean, you know, people agonize a lot about, you know, should I call them? Should I not call them? Um, and the game playing, the game. Now, of course, we know situations where, um, you know, the calling really was so intense that it, it seemed to speak of a kind of worrying level of emptiness in their life and whatever. And, and so legitimately, we withdraw. But, but there are many, many cases where it's not going to change anything whether you call it this point or that point. It's just going to speed up whatever's going to happen. So, in other words, um, you know, you, you could wait another week. U, they would feel exactly the same. They either want you or don't want you. Um, it's not going to change it. It's not going to change the. So, so I think people get too hung up on this on sort of analyzing the text and the wording. And, you know, there's also something we wrote about something for the School of Life on this the other day. Um, we call it the rule of Simplicity. And very often people, when they're involved in a situation, um, that's feeling a bit complicated, and they start to do a lot of thinking, they go, hang on. They, they do really like me. It's just that they, they're worried that I don't like them. So that's why they were shy. But their shyness is not shyness, it's actually desire. Um, and they're not calling is not a sign that they, that they don't like me. It's, it's actually a sign that they really like me, but they're hesitant because of the scale of their love. Now, by the time you're doing all that sort of thinking, you probably should lean on the rule of Simplicity. And the rule of Simplicity is very simple and dictates that if a relationship is going to work, um, it's going to work. It just, it's going to roll. It's going to roll. That the shy person will just say, uh, would you like to come after dinner or whatever? And then, you know, it will just happen. And if it's not, not happening, and you're having to explain, oh, maybe their phone ran out of battery, or, um, as I say, they're scared, they're scared, whatever. But the time you're thinking that another adult, an adult, you know, who, who in the rest of their life is having a job and then, you know, talking to people, etc., that this person has miraculously fallen shy like a, like, like an infant of four, four and a half years old, it's unlikely. It's unlikely. Hard pill to swallow, though. It's a very odd pill. But, um, but once you get that rule, you quite quickly dismiss it. So, in other words, if that text hasn't come through, fine. That's not going to work. Don't, you know, I always like to think you can't say the wrong thing to the right person. I, a lot of times, like when we are dating, and then you feel like you've done something wrong to make them not reply or not want another date with you. And if you'd only sent that text in a different way or not called them when you did. Yes. And, and like you're saying, it's, it's not that that's right. This, this kind of belief that you have shattered this fragile globe of love. It was a crystal, and you did something wrong. And, and putting a kiss at the end of a text. Exactly. Exactly. And that it would have been fine. And that, you know, this is what also happens when, when people break up and they're sort of thinking, um, you know, the partner is, is secretly still thinking of me, and they, they want to get in touch with me, but they're too shy. Uh, they're kind of obsessed with me, as I'm sort of obsessed with them. And, and it's all some tragic Romeo and Juliet thing. I mean, we can't say that that never happens, but it is unbelievably in a minority. You know, if they're not calling, if they've gone silent, and they've actually actively ended the relationship, they've ended the relationship, or, or at least not, not complained when the relationship ended. Um, you know, almost certainly, as the Americans like to say, they're not that into you. Or, if he wanted to, he would. That's one of the sort of social media sound bites that goes around, which I guess what we're saying is, is actually true. Yes. I mean, yes, there's a certain kind of stoic, um, bravery and, yes, to, yes, to just imagine that people are better at communicating their intentions than we sometimes give them credit for, when their intentions seem to be pointing in directions other than the ones we would ideally like. Okay.

And so that's the sort of discussion around the art of dating. But what about the art of actually staying in relationship? Because I feel like they are a totally different skill set. And I think that there's a lot out there around dating. People are often telling their dating stories on Instagram, sharing everything, like we were talking about earlier, you know, labeling people as whatever, which is problematic in its own way. But when people actually get into long-term relationships, the doors close. People don't talk about them as much because perhaps the stakes are higher. And I feel like often we don't have the tools and what's required to actually maintain healthy love. Yes. And one of the dangers is, is the assumption that once love is established, it will just keep rolling on, um, rather than the truth, which is that love has to be kind of renegotiated, possibly every day. That a love that felt, you know, fresh at 9:00 in the morning, maybe wilting by, by the evening. There's, you know, we have this whole idea of sort of, you know, we can do this thing called getting married, which will mean that, you know, because of a piece of paper, love will be assured for decades. As I say, it's, it's closer to a, a very, very delicate plant than it is to a, you know, a chair or a concrete block or something that that manages to weather the elements. And, you know, love's integrity is constantly in doubt and in question. Um, partly because there's frustration and upset that take place at micro levels all the time. We're all the time getting upset and upsetting our partners. There's a constant, very minor letdowns. I mean, they're major ones too, but let's look at the minor ones. You know, someone feels a little distracted at breakfast, and that means that the other person on the receiving end will also, um, withdraw a little bit. And then by dinner time, if there hasn't been a sort of repair of that situation, then they can grow a little bit further apart. And then that means that having sex is no longer so appealing. And then the next day, because there hasn't been sex, and, and it's now been a day of slightly slight withdrawal, etc., etc. And then, you know, these things, there's a line you can plot from that to a divorce. I mean, it really is, um, something you can trace. And so it's terribly important to, um, look at the minor cracks that are appearing, like an aircraft engineer that is constantly looking for the tiniest fissures in metal. Um, they could cause a crash because they could eventually cause a major crash, not immediately, but if left unattended, these are the things that will, you know, do so. So, so maintenance is absolutely key. Sounds unromantic. Brilliant, because it's unromantic. Sounds unromantic. It's going to be good for love. And so to go into the workshop and say something, almost on a morning and evening, um, to say to your partner, sounds odd. How have I upset you? How might I have upset you? You know, is there something, is there something that I've missed? Is, is there something I'm not getting? Is there something you, you know, you need to tell me? And also, you know, um, do I need to tell you something? You know, the, the other way around, the you person does it back to you. And is there something I misunderstood? And this shouldn't be the opportunity for a bloodbath. And if you catch it early enough, it shouldn't be, shouldn't be like, you know, yeah, there, you know, there's seven things I've been meaning to get off my chest. Because if you're doing it regularly, you know, and it's so, and it's not in the moment where everything's heightened. No, no. And it's so, um, it's so nice if someone can acknowledge, you know, if someone can go, look, actually, it's a bit disappointing. You know, the other thing to, to be careful of is that a lot of these things sound so petty, and that's why people don't do it. They think, they think it would be ridiculous to mention, I'm a little bit upset about something. It sounds so silly. Or if it's something that has happened a long time ago, right, like eight months ago, this happened, and storing the resentment. Right, right. And, and, you know, I urge your listeners and viewers, if there is something like that, get it on the table. No embarrassment. The only embarrassment is to have to go to the divorce court, um, because you haven't done this enough. That's the embarrassing thing. I guess it's, it's about feedback again, right? It's our capacity to kind of handle those difficult conversations. Yes. But it's also a particular kind of feedback. It's, it requires us to acknowledge, um, that we can be hurt by a feather. That that once we are in love, we are so delicate. We, we are taking off our armor. You know, out in the world, we'll take knocks and, you know, we don't mind what people say. We're a good sport, we laugh along with our jokes, etc. When it comes to love, we are, you know, our skin is as vulnerable as a newborn. Our psychic skin is as vulnerable as newborns. Anything can puncture us. And, and this is a bit hard to admit to, because it's very possible the other person could turn around and go, you're just a, you're just a whiner, or like, you're so needy, or you're a crybaby. So it's really important to, to for the couple to operate under a kind of rule that both can sign up to, which is, we are both needy. We are both small children. We are both upset by a feather. And that's the way that everybody, even, you know, Hercules would be like this, because we're human beings. We're not necessarily wimpy, etc. We're totally competent adults in other areas of life. In love, we are all as vulnerable psychically as, as newborn children. And, and that's, that's not you, that's not me, that's everybody. So we take the any pejorative association out of it. And on that basis, we can then start to inquire on a daily basis, are you okay? Have I, what have I done? I'm sure I've done something again. The issue is not have I done something, what have I done? The question should not be, have I upset you, but how have I upset you? Because you have, you, every, you know, it's like, oh, you, you didn't knock when you came in, or you left a plate on my study table, and I've told you so many times, or, um, you didn't pick up the dry cleaning, and I'm a bit disappointed, or, um, you said you didn't like my friend Bill, and, and I quite like my friend Bill, and why, why does it always have to, you know, etc., etc. And it's not that there needs to be perfect alignment. There can't be. Sometimes you're just going to disagree. At least, you know, at least you know. Um, and, you know, and, and there can be difficult information. I mean, you can say to a partner, I love you, but I need to spend a bit less time with you. And it's because, you know, I'm a bit screwed up with my childhood, etc., etc. But I need to spend a bit more time alone. And if they can hear that, wow. It's so, I want to say sexy. I mean, you know, let's talk about sex. You know, you want to have sex with people who understand you. It's, there's nothing, nothing sexier than somebody who understands you, has taken the trouble to understand you. And there's nothing unsexier than somebody who seems uninterested in the things that matter to you. And also someone who isn't threatened by your needs, whether that is space, you know, because if you express that need for space, and they can't understand it and can't give it to you, it inevitably is going to make you feel smothered. But alternatively, as well, if you don't express it and you suppress that, then you're going to feel smothered anyway. And, you know, there are many people who, I mean, in my, as a therapist, I, I often come across couples who they'll say things like, you know, I was really upset, and, you know, they didn't do this, and they didn't do that. I got. And then I've learned to ask a very simple and sort of naive-sounding question, did you tell them? Oh, no. Oh, no. I didn't tell. Told everyone else, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I told my diary. I, you know, um, and I, and I say, okay. And, and, and it's not, sometimes they don't tell anyone else. They don't even tell themselves. Because in order to register the things that you really feel, it does require a certain sort of childhood. You know, if no one else ever cared about what you felt, because everybody was so busy doing their own thing, um, it's very hard for you to maintain connection, auditory connection with the deeper sides of you. You won't know you're angry because anger was never possible. No one ever asked if you were angry. You might not know that you're disappointed. You might not know that you're hopeful. You, you just, your correspondence with yourself is stymied, is blocked, blocked by the fact that no one was interested. So we might say the way in which we learned to communicate with ourselves is because other people have communicated with us at an early stage, communicated with our depths. And, and because they communicate with our depths, we are then in touch with our own depths and can then communicate those to others. So, but, but, you know, this causes immense trouble in relationships. And, and, you know, sometimes whole relationships are scuppered. And, and people will, you know, 10 years later, realize what was going on. That someone was able to tell their partner, and no one was being evil. They were just emotionally, put it rudely, but, you know, truly primitive. They were emotionally primitive. They did not have the equipment to translate their inner world into something that somebody else could understand. This is something we should be taught. And that young people going into relationships should really be on top of it. It's like, you cannot expect your partner to be a mind reader. If you are angry about something, you have to acknowledge it with yourself, and then put it into words that can be understood by somebody else. MH. Without it being an attack. Without it being, with diplomacy. You know, diplomacy is is the art. You know, we know what diplomats do in the political world. They take a very difficult message from The King. The King is ranting and raging in his palace. And then the diplomat takes that to another palace and goes, my master is a little hesitant to what you. And, and they break it down into something that's manageable. And, and we all need to be diplomats, whatever our professional careers. We all need to learn from diplomats, because family life, intimate life demands it every hour. Yeah, that's so true.

So in terms of long-term relationships and sex, how often is sex about sex, and sex about so many other things that are going on? I mean, look, sex is about allowing somebody into a very inner sanctum of your life. And the more you trust someone to be delicate and complicated around your complexities, appropriately complicated, the more you will allow them in. Um, so, so the breakdown in sex is always very eloquent of something. It's telling us something very important. Um, it's telling us that that there are things that are not being communicated. Um, difficult things. I mean, which could include things like, I don't always want to have sex. But if you were able to say to somebody, I don't always want to have sex, you will want to have sex much more than someone who just has sex without wanting to. MH. And you'll want it much more authentically. MH. But, but, but it's extremely hard to be honest with other people. Um, and it's extremely hard to bear the honesty of other people. So it's, it's a two-way problem. Um, to really, I mean, to really see somebody else as they are, to allow them to be who they are, and to allow them to see who you are. I mean, it's, you know, it's an Olympic sport. I mean, it's, it's up there with some of the most complicated things that humans ever do. And this is the thing about love is that we tend to think that love is democratically allocated. That everybody can do this thing called love. We don't think that, you know, figure ice skating is for everybody. We don't think that playing the violin at a high level is for everybody. We understand that these are disciplines that have required an enormous, enormous amount of dedication and work. Why shouldn't some of that be true in the realm of love? Um, we can get better at love. We, uh, can sometimes pick up love like somebody like a novice picking up a violin and just going, right, let me play this, and having never given it a thought. But I guess the difference is, we don't all need to be figure skaters, but we all need love. And so that's why we all need to go to the school of love. I mean, we do. We, we really do need an education. Which sounds, what does it sound? Unromantic. Brilliant, because it's unromantic. Sounds unromantic. We need to learn about love. I mean, this is, you know, the ancient Greeks had were on to this. I mean, they were, you know, if you read Plato's Symposium, it's, it's a philosophical discussion about whether love is essentially an instinct or a rational process that needs to be learned. And the Greek philosophers end up with a rational process that needs to be learned. And it's very true. Now, it sounds unromantic. I mean, if you said, if you said to a partner on an early dinner date, look, probably you don't know how to love. I don't know how to love. But should we learn together? Should we, should we just get good at love? And, you know, share our learnings and, and become experts at this, like we're trying to learn Spanish or something? What a lovely project. Um, what a lovely honest admission that we, not might not know how to do it. How odd sounding, but I'd be keen on somebody like that. I mean, I think probably all would. It, it is actually an extremely generous, um, gift to offer someone. Because also, the, the things that fueled the initial stages of a relationship and the honeymoon period, that are based on sort of chemistry and attraction and all those ingredients that are very important and not to be undervalued, but inevitably they kind of fade a little bit. And then we need new tools or new things to kind of keep that the glue of the, the relationship together. That's right. We do by instinct in the early days. Um, we, we get almost a gift from nature. We get a sort of instinctive first three months. It's effortless. Sorry, it's effortless. It's effortless. But, um, you know, then the question is, does love have to die? Well, that phase of love has to die, but it can be supported by a whole set of tools that look a bit unromantic, but can help to sustain those feelings. You can have some of the more boring disciplines like therapy, like therapeutic conversations, like reading, podcasts, etc., that will guide you towards, you know, a more sincere way of loving. Um, you'll need to work a bit harder, but, but the prize is that love can be kept going. And when people talk about love, do you think that we're all talking about the same thing? Because, you know, it's communicated like falling in love, and that everyone has like the same understanding of it and the same measure of what it should be. But in terms of the longevity of love, how would you define that? And do you think it's different for different people? I think you raised such an important point, and it's, um, I mean, it applies right across the board. When, when people say the word holiday, do they mean the same thing? When people say the word children, do they mean when people say the word death, etc.? So, um, many philosophers have had arguments about this. Do, do words, you know, we speak in a language, and we think we're understanding each other, but actually, if you drill down, there are, it's amazing how we, kind of, we manage to misunderstand each other, um, very fruitfully. We kind of constantly trade in misunderstanding, but we, um, we, uh, uh, we get by anyway. The only people who really have a language that's unambiguous, um, Air Traffic Control. If you think about how pilots talk to air traffic control, they are so rigorous, and there's no room for ambiguity, which is why generally planes don't crash, because you know, it's like they're really drilling down into what everybody, you know, do you mean this bit of the runway or that bit of the runway? You know, the runway, right? Um, but, but, but when it comes to love, you're absolutely right that we're much, much more vague, with, with bad effects. Um, and I think it does pay to to ask a partner, what, what do you mean? What, what does it mean for you to feel that you are loved? What does it mean for you to feel that you are in a good relationship? And, and there are astonishing divergences. I mean, some people will say, you know, I will feel loved if we can sit down and discuss our feelings for hours on end. Others will go, I will feel loved if we go hiking together. Um, etc., etc. So, you know, we've grown familiar with this idea of love languages, but it's really love nations, love, love universes that we, we, we could be on different planets when it comes to to that. So we definitely need to check in on what, what the destination is. MH. And that probably changes as well in long-term relationships. You know, what makes a person feel loved in. And this is very, very difficult and very fateful, that that people are changing. And the most, you know, horrific breakups that I've seen are breakups where two people really were on the same page, and without anyone being evil, one person did start to evolve in another way. Um, and this is something we can never insulate ourselves from totally. Um, and this is affects particularly, uh, young couples, you know, because there's more of life, there's more room for change. You change more. So, you know, you get these, you know, lovely couples who meet at 20, and things just, you know, they have a blissful eight years. Um, and then genuinely, something starts to tug in another, uh, direction, and they become really, you know, maybe one person starts to want something, and it, and it's agonizing. Um, and then, and then perhaps won't be a similar level of evolution again in that person's life. So the person who, who went off at 28, by the time they're 35 or 45 or 55, they'll have quite a stable view. But, but between 20 and 28, yeah, there really was a significant change. And that really did require the end of a relationship. And, and yeah, and on that, as a final thing, how does one know when it's time to throw in the towel, and they perhaps have evolved in a different direction, and the relationship is just no longer what it used to be, and not a place that they're supposed to be, versus this is time to really work on myself and for us to work on the relationship to bring us back together? Well, I think, you know, you, by, if you're able to ask all these questions with a partner, that's very, that's a very good place to be. The horrific things of many heartbreaks, many, many endings of relationships, is that, um, there isn't a chance to talk. There isn't a chance to explore. Um, the thought processes have gone on in private. Maybe even the people involved can't understand themselves. They're just impelled in one direction or another. And that is agony. Because, you know, it's one thing to be left. It's another thing to be left for reasons you don't know. I think if you know why a relationship has come to, properly know. I don't just mean, you know, I need more space when it's not really, doesn't sound convincing. Um, if we have a proper explanation, we are spared months, years of agony. We may still be in pain for a while, but my goodness, the pain is less than mystery. My, my not knowing, not knowing, not knowing is is horrible. If you're going to leave somebody, for goodness sake, do them the honor of explaining, as far as possible, why. Um, because otherwise, they're going to be up, you know, for months in the early hours thinking, it will also future relationships. Well, because they won't know. They won't know what was it that I did? What was it that I was? Or what, you know? Um, so it will shatter not just their confidence in themselves, but their confidence in human relationships more broadly. So there's nothing, often people are often the enemy here is an embarrassment. Oh God, it's so embarrassing. I'm going to break up with somebody. So you just want to get it done with and run away and, you know, bury your head in the sand. You know, there's nothing embarrassing about realizing that you don't want to be with somebody. It happens. It's awkward, but, but really, it's the minor problem next to the major problem, which you may be unleashing, which is by not doing it properly. So let's shift the focus away from breakup, no breakup, to what sort of breakup, a good one or a bad one? And how can we leave well? How can we leave well? And as I say, leaving well is leaving someone with a bearable, but true explanation of why the relationship failed. The, the sort that will enable them to get on with reality and, and be free. You know, so often people are chained by their ex through mystery, whether willingly or not. They're in meshed in a kind of labyrinthine structure that's created unnecessarily, totally unnecessarily, by mystery. So, as I say, anyone watching, if you're thinking of breaking up or have broken up, do your partner or ex-partner the honor of setting them free. And what sets them free is the truth. Beautiful place to end. Thank you. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a delightful conversation. I knew that it would be, and I think it's going to be super useful for our audience. So, thank you. So pleased. Thank you.