Transcription
Kitco News on-site coverage of the Rule Symposium, natural resource investing, is presented by Aerys Mining.
All right, welcome back to the show. I'm Jeremy Saffron, live from the Rule Symposium at the beautiful Boca Raton Resort here in Florida. Now, almost 10 years ago, my next guest stood up and said that silver was going to go to $100 an ounce and then some. And at the time, silver was about 17 bucks. And plenty of people laughed. I even remember some of those laughs. Well, earlier this year, silver obviously booped past $100 and hit that all-time high of about $121. Now, he called it, and then just as fast, it also came to correction territory, as sitting there trading around $60 today. So, I don't need to ask the guest, the guest, whether he believes in silver. He was right. Now, the real question is, what happens now? Keith Neurmire, of course. Welcome.
>> Hey, Jeremy. Good seeing you again. It's been a while.
>> It has been a while. And the last time I saw you, that triple digit was a, it was a real thing. I think it was a VRIC, and you had talked about a little bit of the froth in that market at that point, during, you know, what could have been a correction coming right after. Nothing surprised you out of that?
>> It surprised me where it went to so quickly. $121 bucks was, you know, I was looking at my screen at the time, and we were at V-Rick together, and, uh, fortunately, the company sold some ounces, you know, in, in some fairly high territories, up around the $100 plus range, and it was nice, you know, from a cash flow perspective. But, uh, you know, that whole move, the, the $50 target was pretty important. And, uh, you know, if you look back at time, you know, silver had only seen $35 three times in our lifetime, and that was kind of one of the barriers. Once, once it broke through $35, the next was $50. And, uh, usually when you see a, a double top or a triple top, double tops are often fail. Triple tops, if they fail, it's quite negative. But often, if a triple top is breached, you see a parabolic move in anything. It doesn't matter if it's a commodity or a stock. And that's exactly what we saw. But the thing with a parabolic move is, you don't know what the high is, where it's going to stop. So everyone starts guessing, right? You know, $85, $95, $100, $105, $110. I saw people saying, "Oh, $150, $170." And, you know, we're all guessing. Uh, uh, but eventually, the buying exhaustion does come in, and, uh, the buyers just disappear, 'cause, you know, uh, there's only so much, um, on the buy side that's possible. So, we saw the correction. Uh, the correction has surprised me how quickly it happened. But like, once again, you and I've talked about this many times throughout my, you know, 23 years at, uh, First Majestic, is the paper, it's a paper market. Yeah. And, uh, you know, there, there was a lot of short covering, uh, that happened in the high 90s or high 80s, right through 100. A lot of people lost a lot of money. A lot of people made a lot, a lot of money. But the paper machine has taken over once again, and, uh, you know, we see this major correction, about a 50% correction. I think we've seen the lows, quite honestly. We, but we need to bounce around, you know, the market, the investors, institutional investors, need to get used to this kind of new pricing regime that we're in, and it may take six months, it may take 12 months, uh, you know, who knows? But, uh,
>> And to your point, I mean, it got a little frothy there, but even as, you know, we, we sit here and hitting $121, I mean, what, what do you think the market finally kind of woke up to that they ignored that 14 years since you made the call?
>> You know, if you look at one thing that was probably the catalyst, was probably the United States calling silver a critical metal. Uh, because you go to go back and, uh, that woke up a lot of people, a lot of institutions, and you saw the US government start investing in mining, you know, investing in smelters and, and infrastructural projects and so on and so forth. I think that was a big, uh, uh, you know, light bulb that turned on for a lot of investors. And, and then, you know, it is a very thin market. So when investors started coming into the market, it caught a lot of people off guard, and it blew, blew up and, uh, went fast. Yeah, it went very, too fast, but, uh, it was exciting to see. Uh, but, yeah, if I was to mention, if I was to pick one thing, that would be it.
>> Okay. I mean, you know, and be honest with people because, you know, was that $121 spike, was it that blow-off top that got just ahead of itself, or do you think it was maybe a little bit of a base camp for something even bigger down the line?
>> Yeah, you know, blow-off top would suggest that, you know, everyone is selling. Um, and, you know, I didn't sell. So, you know, a lot, a lot of the people at this conference, you know, maybe some took profits. You know, who knows? You know, I hope there were people that took some profits on First Majestic. You know, the stock went to over $40 a share. Um, you know, which is pretty obviously significant. I think our market cap exceeded, you know, $10 billion. I think it actually got up much higher than that, 'cause today we're at nine. Uh, so, yeah, we got almost a $20 billion market cap in a very, very short period of time. You know, blow-offs, um, you know, I don't know. It's, it's, you know, blow-offs tend to last longer. You know, like Nvidia, you know, would I, would I say, you know, that would be more likely. Um, but,
>> A trillion-dollar sell-off in Nvidia. I'm wondering if it's going to start seeing some of that general capital come over to the metals.
>> Yeah, we hope so. You know, that, you know, that's what happened in 2000, right? You know, when the dot-com bubble burst, uh, you know, the NASDAQ hit a record high in March of 2000, and over the next two to three years, it corrected 80%. Uh, and then, you know, that was the beginning of a 10-year bull market in the mining sector. So, you know, that's what I've said, this market looks like, but it doesn't happen overnight. You got to, you know, test these, you know, you test the market, come back, test the market, come back. I, you know, that 10-year bull market from 2002, call it to 2012, there were many times throughout that 10-year period where we had major, major corrections, and I think that's what we're seeing right now.
>> Yeah. And, you know, you, the whole thesis is kind of, it rests on, you know, the fact that there's a deficit. The world has used more silver than mines for, I guess, six years running. If you start looking at it, it's something like 67 million ounces short this year alone. Uh, why did that deficit take years to actually matter for the price, and, and has that changed?
>> Well, there is above-ground supplies that have to come into the market. I think that's what's been happening. But, um, you know, you, the, the supply demand fundamentals for the metal has not changed today, or was it any different when silver was trading $120? The demand is still there. Uh, the m, the miners can't produce any more metal than, and we, and the industry's proven that. You, and we've had 10 years of flat production from the miners at about 830 to 850 million ounces per year. That hasn't changed. You would think, like, if you're manufacturing Levis's or, or gadgets or whatever, um, and all of a sudden you could sell your gadgets for twice what you could sell them for a year ago, wouldn't you produce twice as many gadgets? Um, but, you know, the mining sector doesn't, doesn't work like that. You know, we're, we're producing exactly the same today as we did virtually 10 years ago.
>> Yeah. And, you know, you talked a little bit about that, that physical versus, you know, the actual metal. I mean, if we look at it, some of the warning lights, it feels like it's on. I mean, silver's in its deepest backwardation since the 1980s. Uh, when the metal, today, obviously, um, costs more than the metals promised for by later days. The lease rates in London spiked nearly 40%. So, as a producer, Shanghai has been paying double-digit premiums over the London price, right? I mean, for a producer, and you start looking at that case, what is that telling you about the real physical market here?
>> Well, we felt it, and, uh, because we were getting phone calls from buyers around the world saying, "Hey, we need some physical right now." Now, fortunately, we have our mint and we have a vault. Um, you know, there's about 500,000 ounces sitting in our vault right now. So, um, you know, if we get, and, and, uh, you know, a call from Summit that's willing to pay us a substantial premium, which we did, um, uh, during that spike. We gave some silver to a group out of the eastern United States. We knew them, and we did them a favor, and they gave us a pretty good premium to spot at that, that time. They had the money in our account within a couple hours of doing that deal over the phone, and we had the ounces in a vault, or pardon me, in a Brinks truck the next morning. Uh, so, you know, we can act quickly if need, if necessary. But, um, there's a real, you know, the, the, and you can tell when there's a physical problem when the lease rates start to go up, when our margins start to go up, and, and the traders can take our metal, they're saying, "We, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll buy it from you, but you're not going to get paid for a month or two months," and that type of thing was happening. You know, fortunately, you know, and we got margin called in December of 2025 as well, and we had a choice of either covering, 'cause we were selling into that rally, you know, and, uh, and we decided just to pay the margin. So, why would we cover? Because we got a big balance sheet. Our balance sheet, we over a billion dollars in the bank. So, why would we be caught in a situation like that? So, um, and then we just, you know, obviously delivered into those, uh, sales, you know, into the first quarter of 20, of this year.
>> I mean, how many calls? I was talking to, I think, Adrian Day, and he was talking about how, you know, China, the, the market for solar demand, they'll just get a little bit more efficient. There's nothing really that can replace silver in that demand, but they'll get a little bit more efficient. I mean, were people lining up to to make sure that they had a supply so that they were pre-buying it, and, and what does that mean now?
>> Well, of course, that was happening. Now, we, we don't get a lot of clarity on that because, you know, they, we have intermediaries, and, you know, we, um, uh, you know, we, we can see what the intermediaries are doing. And think about this for a second. So, you're a trader in New York, and you're getting mine supply from, you know, your variety of clients, which are mining companies, and you, and you have a line of credit of $250 million with a variety of banks. So, you know that you could finance $250 million and buy those ounces from the miners, and that's kind of your limit. At $25 an ounce silver, you know, that's 10 million ounces of silver that you, that, that you can buy at any given time, and you can, you know, just trade it, you know, sell it to the commercials, you know, to electronic manufacturing companies or wherever, or whoever your customers are on the other side of that trade. But at $100 silver, they, they could only buy 2.5 million ounces. So that really caused a problem. So there was not only a, a supply problem, uh, there was also a demand problem. So the whole system was really on the verge of breaking. Um, and that's why we saw the rates, the lease rates go up so dramatically, margin calls coming in, and, uh, you know, some of the, you know, groups out there that, you know, can't handle margin calls, just had to shut down. And, uh, yeah, another comment I would like to make is, you know, the retail stores, for example, because, you know, people, we sell our own silver, and, um, you know, people who, you know, want to go and sell their silver to a retail store would normally just take it on a heartbeat, and they, they have a, a contact at a refinery where they just pick up the phone and say, "Hey, I just bought a thousand ounces of silver. I'm going to ship it to you tomorrow." And they said, "No problem." The refining company would just send them a check even before it was remelted and, and converted into a commercial, uh, product. Um, but the, the refineries shut down. They said, "We can't finance 'cause we've reached our financial limits. The banks won't give us more money. So, we can't actually buy your, your silver that you've just bought from this retail guy that just walked into your store." So, the whole system was grinded to a halt.
>> China has been a big buyer, obviously, of silver. I mean, how, how big is that market, and, and are they just stockpiling?
>> I, I don't know about stockpiling, and, you know, there's very little data on that to even, you know, suggest that I would, you know, know those numbers. But what we do know is China doesn't export silver, and we also know that they're the largest EV manufacturer on the planet. We also know that most of the, you know, electronics that we buy, iPhones, computers, you know, microwave ovens, uh, refrigerators, you name it, all the electronic gadgets that, you know, we rely on pretty well get manufactured in China. And so they need to have the silver, and that's why the Shanghai premiums are so high, because they need those ounces for their manufacturing sector.
>> You know, you've long argued, obviously, we talked a little bit about the paper markets there, and it dwarfs the real one. Something like 2 billion ounces of silver traded on paper every day against only about 850 million ounces actually mined in an entire year. So, just make that plain for people watching at home that maybe don't invest in the metals or the bullion. I mean, you tell me, kind of, what happens if enough holders demand the real metal.
>> What happened in November, December, January, that's what happens. And, uh, you know, a lot of, you know, you, you look at the COT report, or you look at some of the stuff that, uh, GADA does, for example, um, you know, they, you know, there were huge short positions, you know, a year ago in silver, and there's different numbers floating around, you know, as high as 800 million ounces of short, uh, sales, and, and they couldn't, there has to be a physical backing to that position, but there wasn't. But they didn't care previously, because they just trade the paper markets. They actually don't even need the physical, that, because they'll just go and buy the paper back. They just trade the paper. But in this particular situation, where there's a run on the metal itself, they actually had to find the metal, and they couldn't, 'cause they couldn't buy the paper, 'cause it, they were losing billions of dollars as it was. So, um, the, the system, as I said, was on the verge of, uh, uh, breaking down, and I'd love to see it again. I think we will. Um, but this time around, the short position doesn't exist to that same degree. So, you know, we do see some manipulation going on. You know, that, you know, they're trying to knock it down as much as they can to, you know, load back up again for the next big rally. Uh, which is a little bit different, 'cause normally they'd be on the short side. I think now they're getting on the long side.
>> It's an interesting perspective. I mean, we could, we could go back to, uh, I guess 2015. I mean, you went as far as filing a letter with the regulator, the CFTC, uh, alleging that the silver price is kind of being suppressed. I mean, we've covered it on the show as well. They didn't act on it. But make the case plainly for people that separate, you know, the kind of the blame. What would actually have to change for the price to reflect the physical reality here?
>> Well, you'd have to dissolve the paper markets. And, uh, you know, the paper markets are so easy for the miners, because, you know, we, and also from a, a corporate governance perspective, or know, or know your client perspective, you know, we have auditors, and then we have to follow rules. And, uh, you know, if we sell our metal to the Bank of Montreal, or, or whatever, you know, bank we're dealing with, we know the client, we know, you know, it's a legitimate buyer. You know, if, if we get a phone call out of India or to China saying, "Hey, we want your silver," we can't even sell it to them, 'cause we, we couldn't do the due diligence that would satisfy our auditors. So, um, uh, join and gain. That's why their premium exists the way it does. So, um, you, the only fix is, we, as an industry, have to get together, like the uranium industry, for example, and say, "Hey, we've had enough of this, and we're not going to sell for the paper price."
>> Is that happening? Is there some in the industry talking?
>> Not really.
>> Not really. No. You know, 'cause it's so easy, you know, like, you know, executive can, you know, team, you know, they produce 100,000 ounces of gold or silver, and then pick up the phone and call a trader in New York and say, "I got 100,000 ounces." They got a check in your bank in two to three days. It's pretty simple. Why, why have a, why have a sales force of 10 people in your back room looking for buyers? So, phoning up Sony or phoning up Samsung would say, "We got a shipment coming." It's just too much work. Uh, so it's, it's, it's not as simple. The, the, the current paper system has been in place since the 70s. You know, to unwind that is pretty difficult. But I think on a positive side, they're no longer on the short side as they were before. They're now looking at this metal is, hey, look, silver is actually very important. This is not just a line item on a screen that trades in a range that we could trade, you know, peak and valleys. And this is actually a real commodity, and we better pay attention, because this commodity is in demand, and with AI coming in, nuclear energy coming in, robotics, and, you know, all the fancy electronics that we, you know, we want to produce, you know, this metal is is needed. And with these deficits, you know, we need higher prices to try to close the gap on these deficits. And you, you know, just going to that point, you would need the current deficit, you would need 10 First Majestics just to fill the def, the current deficit.
>> Wow. And what, I mean, to talk about just the one First Majestic at $60, you're still, I mean, it's still pretty good for your metal. I mean, that's a good price.
>> Look, it's not, it's not $100, but, uh, you know, we have over a billion dollars in the bank. We're cash flowing, you know, over $150 million a quarter. Um, you know, we're in a great spot. But, uh, you know, I, I, I wear this t-shirt because I'm a big believer. Um, you know, I predicted that in 2012, and it, it took 14 years to get there. I don't know how long it's going to take to get back to triple digits, but I'm confident it will.
>> But I mean, to your point, I mean, the ratio question always comes up because there's still a lot of people that watch that gold to silver ratio, you know, and right now it takes about, I think, 67 ounces of silver to buy a single ounce of gold. Uh, and the long run average is closer to 54. So, does that tell you silver is still cheap relative to gold? And do you expect that maybe that gap to close a little bit from here?
>> Yeah, you know, I know all the historic ratios and so on, but no one talks about the mining ratio. It's a number that I keep coming up time and time again, because, you know, and, you know, I, I always say, you know, the metal should trade at the mining ratio. If the miners actually took control of the market the way I say we should be as an industry, uh, you know, we, we mine 8:1. So for every 1 oz of gold, 8 ounces of silver is being mined worldwide by the mining industry. So divide the current gold price by eight, and that should be the silver price.
>> I got to ask you, I mean, when you're looking at production here, and, and you're sitting here, we've been talking about the generalist money maybe not coming to the market, but at $100 silver, I mean, were the institutions calling? Are you starting to see any inflows on that side? Were they, or were they the first ones to sell?
>> They didn't own any to begin with. Um, you know, the, the institutions tend to buy indexes because they don't want to do the work, you know. Um, can you imagine a fund manager who's, you know, managing, you know, $10 billion or whatever, and he's, you know, been given an allocation of a billion dollars to put into the mining sector? What's the easiest trade for him? Just phone, you know, you know, go buy the GDX or go buy the GDXJ, you know, why have a hundred, you know, CEOs walk through his office, and he has to do due diligence on all these different mining companies, and then try to pick one? Now, he doesn't know what mining is, for one thing, and how to pick a good mining company. So the risk for, for a fund manager to pick a minor is, is too high. He, he might lose his job if he, all of a sudden, picked the wrong ones, or the group of the wrong ones, or whatever. Um, so no, it's, it's, it's unfortunate that's the way it is. Um, you know, we need to see that change, and I've said many times to the, you know, mutual funds and pension funds of the world, that they should have a permanent allocation to the mining sector. You know, whether it's 5% or 10%, whatever the number is they're comfortable with, and they, they divide that up, you know, between the different metals, you know, um, uh, and, and just have a permanent investment. So, they, uh, because they, they tend to always come in at the top and sell at the bottom. I've seen it happen so many times, and they get burned, and, and then it takes them the whole next cycle to come back into the, uh, industry again, or coming back into the sector, because they're afraid of it. They don't understand it. Uh, and, and, uh, um, you know, if they'd only just follow some of my advice, I think they would, uh, be much better off.
>> I got to ask you, I mean, just for the regular folks, not the institutions back home. I mean, if we're thinking about the metals versus the miners, for a regular person, give them the honest trade-off. I mean, owning the silver itself, uh, versus maybe owning a silver miner, right? I mean, what does, what does each get you? What's the risk in each?
>> Well, you, the miners are going to be, you know, more volatile, and, uh, you, you have to be very selective. Um, you know, we see, I don't know how many companies here at this conference, but, uh, you know, it's tough to pick and choose. Uh, but, you know, if you, if you're bull, bull on the metals, gold or silver, it's easy to buy gold and silver. And, and it's, it's, you can just put it away somewhere, and it's not, it's not going to go anywhere. Um, um, but a mining stock, it could go bankrupt, unfortunately. And that, and those types of things do happen. Or, or, you know, if it's, it's an exploration company, they could, you know, either, you know, miss, or maybe you'll be lucky enough to get one that, you know, is becomes a 10-bagger, and it does happen. You know, there's lots out there. And so, you know, personally, I, I'm a very high risk investor from my own portfolio. Now, not so much for First Majestic, we're quite conservative. But, um, so I love owning the exploration companies, and I, I love, I love, you know, having, you know, portfolio 10 to 20, you know, juniors, and, and, you know, every couple years, I'm lucky, and, you know, one of them goes up five to 10 times, and, you know, that pays for the ones that, you know, didn't do very well. Um, I'd suggest, you know, the, you know, the institutions do a similar type of strategy. But, you know, you don't have to go down that far. You know, you, you could pick the, you know, the dividend, uh, payers, like ourselves, or, you know, there's others in, in, Eco, Eagle, and you, you, you know, you know, the list of miners out there. But, um,
>> 50% discount. I mean, you know, it, it almost feels like it should be like a consumer product. I mean, if something else was on sale for 50% off, people would go and pick it up. Are you seeing that? I mean, I'm watching the markets today. The bids aren't quite there for the general, uh, equities on the mining side. When do you think that's going to turn over?
>> I think it is happening now. You know, because, you know, we've, you know, just talking to traders that I talked to, um, I know the institutions felt, um, that they missed the market. You know, silver went from basically $35 and, you know, July, August to, you know, $120, as we know. Um, and then they were caught completely off guard. I think everyone's pretty well caught off guard. So, very few people participated in that big move. Uh, and that, now we've got a 50% retracement, and, you know, I know that there's funds out there now seriously considering, and I know they're already buying.
>> You, I mean, I think you're the only one that has a mint attached to you as well. So, talk to me a little bit about that physical side, what that allows for you, and also if you've been seeing, I mean, you're sitting here at the Rule Symposium, a lot of people still interested in the physical metal itself.
>> Oh, for sure. And, um, you know, but don't forget, um, you know, most of the people that we deal with from the mint are retail investors, um, and retail investors, you know, will chase things that are going up, and unfortunately, chase things when they go down on the sell side. So, there, um, goes back to my same comment about my, my, uh, comment regarding institutions on how they should be investing. You know, never chase something, and always buy something that no one else wants. That's what I like to do personally. So, I like things on sale, and right now, I'm, I'm in the market buying, because, you know, we have, you know, stocks down 50%. And these are a lot of these companies are really solid, really good companies, and they, unfortunately, you know, people get nervous for whatever reason. And you can see, just talking to people here, and now, this group, this crowd here is quite sophisticated. They've been following mining stocks for a long time. So, but nevertheless, everyone sees that correction, they go, "Well, when should I buy?" Well, 50%. Don't you think that's a good time? So, they almost have to be pushed or convinced a little bit. But you're right. Um, you know, if it was anything else other than mining stocks or, or gold or silver, you know, if a television was on sale for 50% off at, you know, Costco tomorrow, you'd be lining up to try to buy one.
>> Yeah. I find it interesting, too, because it feels like the cycle has changed. At least, you know, the miners themselves are being a little bit more careful with their capital. They're, they're definitely, you're seeing a lot more discipline. Um, does that encourage the investors that you're talking to there? I mean, you'd think that they would step up in this market a little bit.
>> Well, I don't know. It's, um, maybe that's the case, but, you know, I think we're two years into a 10-year bull market. I, I look at this bull market similar to what I said earlier about the 2002 to 2012 rally. Um, and we're in one of those corrections, and, um, people just generally don't buy when, when stocks are going down. Um, you know, I, it's just a fact of life.
>> It's been wild to see. But going, but going back to the mint for a second. Uh, you know, we, we opened the mint in March of 2024. So, it's only about a year and a half in business, and it's been doing very, very well. We, we, I, I opened it or, or built it out of frustration because the, the whole minting industry is, is, you know, it's very small, and, uh, it's hard to, you know, really manage that site. You know, we'd be sending ounces into these mints, and that we would be waiting six or eight months to get our products back into the form of retail products. So, we have our own mint now in, in Nevada, and, uh, you know, it's, we're the only mining company in the world that does mine to mint. So, it's pretty cool. You know, we have, you know, all these different products on, on firstmint.com, and these are, this is our own ounces that we mine, and then we process into these retail products.
>> I've seen some people lining up too. You had a couple of, a couple people looking for some silver. Uh, finally, 'cause you just talked a little bit about there that within your personal portfolio, you, you like a little bit of high risk. How do you manage those emotions? I mean, you're a sophisticated investor, more probably than most people buying at the top and then wondering why their stock prices down, but how do you handle the emotions, just to kind of, what is it, cost average?
>> Well, I do cost averaging a lot. And, uh, you know, Rick Rule said, I don't know how many years ago, or probably over 10 years ago, uh, he said, "When you buy your first position, you expect to be down 50%." And it's kind of interesting because, you know, once you make that decision to buy any of these companies, or any other company, um, you know, if you got $10,000 or $100,000 to invest, you know, your first investment should be 10% owner of your total, uh, capital you're willing to put at risk. Then wait 30 days, and then put another 10% in. So, you know, you, you spend that allocated amount of money over, you know, six to 12 month time frame, and that way, you should get a reasonably good average. And selling is the same way. Um, you have to be disciplined, and, uh, you know, when a stock is up 3x, you, you should probably sell a little bit. You know, when it's up 5x, you know, sell a little bit more. You know, by the time a stock is up 5x, you should have all your capital off the market, or out of that stock. So, the rest of that move, now you have 50% of your position left over. Now, that position will be free. It doesn't matter if that stock goes to zero. You'll still have made a profit. So, I, I'm a very disciplined buyer, and I'm also a very disciplined seller.
>> Now, you also run a large company. And so when you're looking at the valuations, and took a haircut as they did, I mean, what are your thoughts on M&A? I mean, are you going in at these low valuations? Are people starting to look?
>> We don't stop looking. You know, I build this business. So, I'm not a geologist or an engineer. So, I'm a finance guy. So, I love these kinds of markets. These are the best markets, 'cause people are, you know, get concerned, and, and, uh, you know, this is when sellers come out of the weeds, and because everyone gets nervous. So, I love to get in there and start trying to pick things up from a personal level, but also on a corporate level. You know, we have, we have our list of targets, and, we have an M&A team, you know, that is very active, you know, going through news releases and looking at assets and, you know, meeting management teams, and, you know, we, we do that regularly. We don't transact often, but because we're very patient, but, you know, it seems like every two to three years, we end up, end up doing something. You know, we closed the Gatos transaction in January of 2025, which was now a third of our total production. That was a big deal for us, and we're looking for more assets like that.
>> Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, it almost feels like for some, they get a little bit scared, but this volatility in these, this price action on the equity side, is it a gift for somebody running one of these businesses?
>> I think so.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Always. It's, um, you know, I, as I said, I like buying things when everyone's selling, or, or people, there's nervousness in the street. And I put First Mining and Gold together, you know, in 2014, 2015, and I'm the chairman of that company. And, uh, and I bought eight companies over a 15-month period, and each one of those companies had ounces in the ground trading at less than $10 an ounce at the time. And, uh, uh, and, and they're unfinancable. They, they literally had no money left in the bank. They couldn't get any more money. The insiders couldn't write another check. All the investors couldn't write another check. So, we come in and scoop up eight really good companies. And now today, First Mining Gold has two 5-million-ounce assets, which they're developing, and both will become producing mines. In my viewpoint, you know, First Majestic is a little bit different, because we don't go after exploration or, or, or assets that aren't permitted. You know, we, we go after assets that are permitted or in production. So, it's a little bit different market for us, but the same kind of phenomenon occurs.
>> I remember First Mining, Paul, I saw him here too. It's, it's always interesting to kind of see you step into the market when no one else is buying, which you did for a lot of years before this next cycle set up. Is that something you still have to kind of do?
>> I think so. I think that's the way you make money. And, uh, you know, that's my job as CEO of First Majestic, um, is, is to make money for our shareholders. And, you know, no one likes to see the volatility, and I try to explain it to people. You know, someone unfortunately buys the stock at higher than the current share price, and they go, "Why, you know, why am I losing money?" And it's, you know, it is sometimes hard to explain. But, uh, you, if, if you're, if you don't get spooked out of the market, and, you know, you have to ask yourself this, this particular question: Are you going to buy, sell, or hold? So, if you buy a stock at, at 50 cents, let's say, or a dollar, and, and, and the stock is at 50 cents, half the price you paid for it, ask yourself the question: Would I buy that stock today? Would I hold it, or would I sell it? So, you look at the fundamentals. Has the fundamentals changed? Have they improved, or are they the same? And if you're willing to pay a dollar for the stock, fundamentals are the same as they were before the correction, then why not add? Why not buy some more to bring your average cost down? Um, you know, if, if something fundamentally has gone wrong that has caused the stock to go down, okay, then, then it might be a sell, or maybe a hold. But, I, if you ask yourself those three questions, I think it'll do your world a good.
>> Now, I think I know the answer to this before I let you go, but the triple-digit silver there, are we going to see it again? And when do you think?
>> Well, absolutely, we will. Um, I don't know when. You know, I, I'm, I'm a little bit nervous about putting, um, more predictions out there. I was highly criticized when I came out with a triple digit, uh, in 2012.
>> And when I came out with that prediction, silver prices went straight down. So I was highly.
>> You're good at the technical levels too, though. I mean, for the, the chart to hit these levels at $126, it means it can go there again.
>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And it will. Just like, you know, we saw $50 three times, and on a third time, it broke through. You know, maybe we'll hit $120 again three times before it breaks through to go to some other level.
>> And you'll have some to sell into that market.
>> Well, we, we'll keep producing as we do.
>> I love it. All right, Keith Nurmire, appreciate your time as always.
>> Great, Jeremy. Next one.
>> All right, those Keith Nurmire, here's the takeaway. I'm sitting with a man called silver to $100 when it was $17 and got laughed at for years, right up until it happened. Now, the metals pull back. I guess it pulled back quite hard. Well, the physical shortage is as tight as it's been in decades. And that gap between what the paper price says and what the real market is doing is the thing to keep your eyes on. Where it goes next, we'll find out all together. As always, these are his views. Do your homework. I'm Jeremy Saffron, coming to you from the Boca Raton and the Rule Symposium. We're going to be here all week long. Stay tuned.
Kitco News on-site coverage of the Rule Symposium, natural resource investing, is presented by Paris Mining.