Is God's Judgment Coming Soon? @RealLifeJackHibbs

The legendary, if I may say so myself, Pastor Jack Hibbs. Thank you so much for being here. Pastor Jack Hibbs joins us now.

But I do want to make sure I say this. Every Sunday I watch Jack. This is a courageous man that is doing so much for our country. And if we turn on Israel, I think in short order you will see the hand of God's judgment fall upon this Christ-rejecting nation. I have seen in real time, while I was in Israel, on an air base, when rockets were launched from southern Lebanon.

You brought up Trump. A lot of conversation, a lot of hoopla around Christian nationalism.

The IDF is the most moral military that he has ever seen on Earth. And when we say to them, "Hey, you know what? I don't know I don't know what's going on with Netanyahu. I don't know what's up, but your prophets told me that God sets up Hey, there's a difference between like I think everybody's like get the criminals out. But when you're you're hearing reports of like, "Hey, this abuela has been here for 20 years. They don't have a criminal record." And it seems like some of those folks are getting caught up.

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All right, ladies and gentlemen, you are in for a treat. We have another New York Times bestselling author. He has a podcast, a radio show. He is a local church pastor of Calvary Chapel Chino Hills. The the legendary, if I may say so myself, Pastor Jack Hibbs. Thank you so much for being here.

Thanks for having me.

All right. Uh if you could pull that microphone just a smidge towards you. Yeah, there we go. Yep. All right, so um man, we we got a lot of stuff we're going to talk about um Israel, dispensationalism, um Christian nationalism, all the isms today.

Let's do it.

Okay. But before we jump into that, for folks who totally not familiar with who you are, um I've heard of of you for probably decades. You pastor 14,000 people over at Calvary Chapel Chino Hills. I got actually a lot of friends that attend your church. Um always hearing great things. So, just folks who may not know who you are, tell us a little bit about you.

Yeah, just real quick. Um born uh in San Diego, moved up to Orange County when I was young. Uh no God, no religion in our family. Uh during the Jesus Revolution, the '70s, uh wound up going to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Chuck Smith was the founding pastor there. Greg Laurie, the famous Greg Laurie would do Monday nights. And so, um I went to a Monday night service. And I'll shorten this up quickly. Uh heard the gospel for the first time in my life. I was 19. I'll never forget it. It was June 20th, 1977. It was a Monday night. Couldn't believe what I was hearing. He actually taught a message and Greg gave it to me later on in years, and that message was called how to inherit hell. And I was just kind of going I was living it all out, and I just I was so convicted. I was all of a sudden a room of 2,000 young people, I was all alone. I mean, I was nailed. And I didn't know what was going on. I had no Christianese happening in my life. And so, uh when he said come forward to give your life to Christ, I got to tell you, man, I it was a struggle because I immediately got up and I went forward, but I looked around and everybody was bawling and crying, and I wasn't. And so, I thought, "What's wrong with me? Did it not take? Did that not take?" But I believed everything I had heard, and I knew I was guilty. And so, but lo and behold, I got to tell you, within an hour, this is how I knew I was different. My thoughts were different. I thought in my mind, "Well, I guess I better call my friends and we'll go see what's what the party is tomorrow." And in my head, if this makes any sense, I didn't hear a voice. I just knew inside, "We don't do this anymore. We just don't do this anymore." The appetite was gone. That said, I just dove into the Bible. You got to keep something in mind, please. I stuttered profusely all my life. Bad. So, I dove into the Bible and just studied it constantly, and I went to every Bible class, and then I went to the Bible college that was on campus. Because I could hide in the Bible and I didn't have to say anything to anybody. I knew I had a new life, but I got to tell you the the the more that I acquired Bible, the more I was blown up on the inside. I wanted to tell somebody.

Fast forward and again, I was able to by God's grace meet a young woman on the beach. Uh she was a great Baptist girl from Anaheim First Baptist. That was my wife, Lisa. 47 48 years ago, met her. We've been married 47 years. It would be this June.

Wow.

And um amazing woman of God. And so, um yeah, uh my background's biomedical engineering. I was working at Baxter Healthcare in Newport Beach, supervisor of a research lab. I love science, and I was totally content uh sharing the gospel the best I could with people. And um I was at a prayer meeting. And uh this man said he laid his hands on me. Really old man. And he said, "God is calling you into the ministry." And I thought, "This guy's nuts. I don't I'm fine." And he doesn't even know that I don't I don't know how to talk because it's a prayer meeting. I just I was silent. And so, um he's saying what he said, and I thought, "Well, yeah, right. Okay." Uh well, years went by, and when we moved out from Costa Mesa to Chino Hills, um the Lord had radically I mean, without any weird bells and whistles, the Lord radically healed my tongue in an instant of time.

Wow.

And I was full of Bible, and now I had a tongue. If you If you have the time, go look at Mark chapter 7. There was a guy there whose tongue was bound, and Jesus took him off to the side and spit on his fingers and touched the man's tongue, and his tongue was loosed. Man, when I saw the saw that in the Bible the first time, I just broke down. I mean, that was me in the Bible, so to speak, 2,000 years ago. And so, that was it was a like an instant

Instant.

healing.

Instant.

Of your stutter, instantly gone. Instant. There are no cameras. There's no nobody around. It was instant. And so, having the Bible in you, I don't know if people realize this or not, but I think Christians can get kind of fat and lazy to have the word in them and not tell anybody. Let me tell you, if you can't tell If you have the word in you and you cannot tell anybody, you wish you could. And so, when that happened, I just exploded. And um so, when we moved to Chino Hills, we asked some neighbors if they'd want to come to a Monday night Bible study. So, the first night there were there were six of us. My wife and I and two other couples. And it just started growing and growing. And Chuck Smith at Costa Mesa said, "You know, let's make that a Monday night home Bible study from Costa Mesa." So, we did, and it just grew. We wound up having about 150 people on the Monday nights.

All All packed into your home, or did you guys move on to a building?

We had We actually packed them into It wasn't my We had to move over to another house that was bigger. And then what happened was we wound up having people in into homes nearby with with those days big video cameras, we'd run a cord into other rooms. It's crazy. And then

Had the first multi-site. Isn't that funny? And so, my goodness, wow, 1993, uh is when I retired from my job. I I resigned. I shouldn't say retired. I resigned after 13 years. It was one of the hardest things to do, even though I knew I knew I was supposed to do it. I loved my job. And uh we we did Sunday mornings, and people showed up, and they've been showing up ever since, and Yeah. Yeah.

That's awesome. Okay, so you're coming out of the Jesus Revolution, the Jesus hippy movement. Um was this Did you happen to ever be around This is probably a deep cut, but Don Abshire? Name Name sound familiar?

The I don't know the face. I know the name.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don Abshire was an elder at at our church out here for a while, and so he's Oh my goodness.

He would always tell us the stories of the the the Jesus Revolution. Lonnie Frisbee.

Frisbee, the whole thing. You could If you got to church 1 hour before it started, you were too late. You could not get in. It was amazing.

So, what did you make of Pastor Greg's movie, the Jesus Revolution, and like kind of living through it, but then seeing it on a big screen?

Yeah, I mean, knowing that Greg's going to watch this right now, he's not going to be um anyway concerned about what I have to say. Um that was it was from Greg's perspective. Here's the beautiful thing about it all. We had our perspective. And and and you you got to remember there's tens of thousands of people going there. That was Greg's experience. Um I I just thought um I and I do think the world should know more about about Chuck Smith. Mhm. Um because Greg Laurie's uh ministry came out of Chuck Smith. Um and to be honest with you, Lonnie Frisbee's longevity was very short-lived. It wasn't long. Uh but Greg's, of course, and then Chuck Smith's, of course. But um this was as I like to say that was one reporter's opinion. Does that make sense?

Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. I mean, I think the idea that you have this amazing movement, the Calvary Chapel movement, which I'm a massive fan of, uh come out of that connection between Lonnie and and uh

Yeah.

And how all that flew out was was pretty incredible. And seeing that on a movie screen and understanding that many of the issues we're dealing with today are similar to what you guys were dealing with is pretty amazing.

It's odd you should say that. I've just I just arrived to your studio having spoken to 500 this morning in San Diego. That's exactly what I just said. They're all discouraged, they're all bummed. And I said, "What are you guys dragging your mug around for? We should all get excited because I'm old enough to remember how it was, and we're on the brink of that again. The kids are disillusioned with sex. They're burned out on it. They're burned out on drugs. They're even burned out on social media. They want meaning, they want purpose. I.E. look at what's happening in the post-Charlie Kirk life. Kids are looking for purpose. Yeah. I tell you what, man, it is time to present the gospel everywhere at all times because kids are ready. We're going to see it again. Amen.

I want to I want to kind of unpack some of that, the similarities. And and now we're in the middle of a great awakening, but just a little anecdotal story for you. Um I preached at my church a couple weeks ago. I go to Rhythm Church here in Oceanside. We're plant of North Coast Vista. So, Larry Osborne, Pastor Chris Brown, that's who planted us. And I I preached a couple weeks ago. And I I was talking about hospitality and doing life on life. And I said, you know, one of the aspects of our of our culture in Southern California is that people sneak in church and sneak out of church. And you sit next to people every week, you never say hello to anyone. And like we have to do better because the early church exploded because of hospitality and relationship. And so, we do a "If I Had More Time" podcast with my pastor every every Monday kind of going deeper. If we if we had more time, this is what we would have talked about. And so, we're we're kind of having this cultural conversation. And like, man, this aspect of Southern California, like we need to we need to do better, and we need to equip people to be more hospitable and do life on life. And it's not all about just Sunday morning. Hopefully people are getting together. So, we're having this whole conversation. And my wife comes home uh and she says, "You know, so funny, we just had to spend 20 minutes at the end of my women's group having to tell two different women uh that you can't be sexually immoral anymore. And they're you know, one of them is like, 'Hey, I'm so looking forward to the weekend cuz I can go and hook up with someone.'" And so, they have to pause the Bible study and explain to them like, "Fornication's out, sexual immorality is out." All these things are out. And so, I'm texting my my Pastor Jeff and I'm telling him and and George. And I'm like, "It's so funny, we're talking about hospitality and being more friendly. There's people in our Bible studies right now

That's right.

That need to be told they can't have sex anymore."

Exactly right.

Yeah, so so this is this is crazy how how how things are changing.

Well, and what your wife what you're talking about is the loving thing to do. That is you know, I I I'm sorry if I offended anybody, but people use the word, "Well, that's community." Forget the word community. That's doing church. Church cannot be drive up, drive away. Yep. And I don't care, listen, I I was saved in a gigantic church. And it was never big. I'll I'll tell you the reason why. And and I encourage every big church, right? Uh by the way, I'm I know this sounds crazy, but I am anti-mega church. Mhm. And I happen to be a pastor of one. The pastor of a mega church is anti-mega church. Folks, you hear it here first. I'm I'm telling you right now. Because listen, I grew up in a massive church, and here's what we did. We were encouraged to get out and and say hi to those that are around us. Notice, in every church, people kind of pretty much sit in the same place every week. Man, that that is an open door. Get their names. Get their Say, "Hey, you want to go out to Do you want to go out to lunch after church?" You don't have to reach 10,000 people. Why don't you reach the 10 that are right there? Then start doing ministry together. Sign up. Go to the square dance in Riley's farm, or take the surf trip, or let's go to Israel together. A big church does not have to be a big church. But you know, I refuse I'm just the the kind of pastor I am not going to let people hide in our church. That does does that does no one any good.

Yeah, no, I I love that. And I think I think what I what I'm I'm totally with you. I think what I'm what I'm also noticing is that again, outside of people hiding in community and culture is that the these are folks that are showing up not just to church. They're going the extra step of saying, "I'm going to join a weekly Bible study."

Huge.

And so, we're we're trying to get them to be more hospitable, but it's like we have bigger fish to fry. Uh folks don't even know a biblical sex ethic. These are folks that are saying yes to church, yes to Jesus, coming to a Bible study. And you know, praise God, my wife is well equipped to have these conversations with them. But it's it's just so interesting that regarding this this great awakening that we're seeming to have in our church, you know, where where we've doubled since this time last year. Yeah. Um and it and every week we're growing, consistently growing. Every week we're growing. And we're not we're not quite a mega church like you guys are. We're 14,000 people. I think that's what you guys get on a Sunday. Yeah, so we're about 1,500 right now. But it's it's growing fast. And so, do you think that we are in the middle of another great awakening similar to what your generation saw with the Jesus Revolution?

Yeah, okay, so listen, I'm going to preface this. Um I've been asked that by CNN, by Fox News, uh the Blaze, Daily Mail, uh Okay, here's the deal. I've I've been the guy I've been the poo-poo guy. Here's the reason why. I know church history. Do I want to jump up right now and say, "Yes, we are in the midst of a great awakening?" Of course I want to say that. But here's the fact of the matter. Remember, an awakening is where the lost get found, right? The lost come and seek truth. Are we seeing that? Yes. How great will it be? Time will tell. Here's what I'm concerned about more. I'm I love what I'm seeing regarding the awakening aspect. Historically, it's tracking right on. It's looking good. Here's what I'm concerned about. A lot of people are going to church now. What kind of church are they going to? In history, God has always first revived the church. And then an awakening followed. Meaning this, the church got holy, beautiful, on fire, awesome. And then the lost, so speak, was looking through the window saying, "I want some of that." It's a little different this time. I'm hoping that there's a revival within the church. Remember, the church is revived and the lost is awakened. That's the definitions. If that happens, I'm telling you, it could be the biggest of all time.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I love that you you connected it to like, "Hey, we don't we don't want to have a big church." Cuz I always say, "Hey, if there's revival here, which I which I'd like to think there is, I don't think revival was going to happen over screens like this. I don't think it's going to happen in stadiums. I don't think it's going to happen in big buildings necessarily. I think it's going to happen at dinner tables. I think it's going to happen in living rooms." And I think that's what people need to be equipped to do. You know, Ephesians 5 says, you know, that the leaders of the church, the the the pastors, the apostles and prophets, they are called to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. And every time I talk to people, they're like, "Well, my pastor doesn't do this. I don't feel fed. Or I do da da da da." And it's like, "You're supposed to do the work of the ministry."

Exactly. I I got to tell you, uh last Sunday, um we have a men's group, but then once a month I get with the men of the church. And it's from 4:00 to 6:00 p.m. Last last Sunday night, we had close to 2,000 guys show up. And I have never seen this happen before. These guys Now, it's Now, we deliberately do not stream it. There's no women allowed. It's a men's service, and it's all about building biblical masculinity from the scriptures. What does the Bible say? If God made men man, and he did, then he he wrote the manual. Let's find out how to do it. So, these guys, I'm telling you, these guys, young men, are opening up to strangers saying, "Hey, you know what? Um I am just torn with same-sex attraction. I'm not exactly sure what all that means. I'm not even sure if I'm a Christian." And we saw people come to Christ last Sunday night in a discipleship setting, which kind of goes back to what you're saying with the woman saying, "Hey, let's get let's get done with the church so I can go on some hot dates." Wait a minute. If we become that hospitality, you are really saying in a very gentle way, let's, in a very winsome way, let's be accountable. Yeah. Let's be accountable.

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think accountability is uh much of where my own personal sanctification happened. You know, I was going to a church for several years, but it was when I decided to step in to a small men's group uh the end of my junior year of high school that I had already been kind of going to the church and the youth group, but it was the end of my junior year of high school when I said, "I'm You know what? I'm going to take this thing seriously. I'm going to be a part of a local community that then the sanctification and the accountability came from, you know? And so I think I think it's it's it's important for people to do that. And the the Again, not to not to brag about you guys too much, but the beautiful part about Calvary Chapel is that you guys have a cohesive manner across the churches, but every church is kind of different. You're going to get good Bible teaching. You're going to get opportunities to connect. You're going to get great um solid men that that are in the pulpit. Uh and that's I think why we're seeing these sorts of things explode is like there's a hunger for the word. Yes. Right? And so one of the mistakes, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that without naming anybody, but I'll just say this. I think one of the mistakes that my generation made, I'm 40, um is that about 10 years ago we really went into the attractional aspect of

Mega church and celebrity pastors and all this sort of stuff. And so it was like, "Hey, we you know, do anything short of sin to win people over." And really make it attractional and monster trucks and this and that and all this craziness, right? And uh and I I understand the heart and the intent. And then when there was opportunities to speak on Oprah or speak on you name the platform, Yeah. "What do you guys think about abortion? What do you guys think about homosexuality?" They didn't answer those things. They crumbled. They didn't answer them publicly. And now what we're seeing is a generation of people that are like, "Hey, I don't want to be coddled. I'm probably going to disagree with you, but just tell me the truth. Like what does the Bible really say? And and teach me the scriptures. Teach me the scriptures. You don't have to give me a three-point talk about a with a illustration and a and a and a and a movie night and all this other stuff. Yeah. Just teach me the scriptures."

Isn't it awesome? Paul the Apostle told Timothy, "Give attention to reading." How simple is that?

Yeah. Yeah. Somebody uh one of our uh one of my youth pastors just this Sunday, maybe you know about this, he said, "Did you see what happened if they was in Texas where a church opened up their doors for 75 hours or 76 hours and people came in and they read from Genesis to Revelation behind a microphone? Uh like like like each person had like 20 minutes. They read through the entire Bible and then they broke open in worship. And uh everybody was talking about the impact it made on their life and when asked why, they said, "I heard portions of the Bible I've never even heard before." All that to say this, Jesus said, "And we can talk about this later if you want. It's your show." Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice. They'll follow me and a stranger they will not listen to." So right now there's a lot of division Look, division going on in the church? I don't think so. I'm not panicking about it. I see pastors ringing their hands because they just lost a few people because of uh mentioning Israel or mentioning gender or mentioning COVID or mentioning BLM going back in time now. Mentioning this, that, and the other thing. "Oh, we just lost 10 people." What do you How do you know you lost 10 people? Give the gospel. And the gospel and the word of God, it's not just the gospel, it's the full counsel of God speaks to everything of our lives. That means you're going to be talking about particular issues in life. That said, some people are not going to like it. Bottom line is this, it's not for us as pastors to get people to come on in. It's for us to give them the voice of Jesus. What's the voice? The word is his voice.

Okay, I want to ask you a spicy question and we can clip this out if you don't if you're uncomfortable.

Well, now you've got me all excited. Okay, so I mentioned about 10 years ago there was a lot of folks who were going viral, exploding, the celebrity pastor thing. And I've always made the statement that like I I I love to preach, I love to communicate, but I know my gifting is not a local church pastor, right? I watch uh me and my me and my some of my friends have had the opportunity to go shoot with some Navy SEALs, you know? And uh and I understand I understand there's levels to it. You know? And so like what you do is not what I do as a podcaster or as a Christian YouTuber. There's there's levels to ministry. And I get to sit here and pontificate and churches will bring me out to speak sometimes and it's awesome. But I think there's levels to it. Now, this is this is my my hot take. I think there were amazing men of God who went into planting churches and doing local ministry for my generation that were not shepherds and pastors. They were content creators. They were authors. They were They were thought leaders. And had they came on the scene now, they probably would be doing something like I'm doing where I'm in my garage speaking in front of a camera and by the grace of God I reach a million unique users a month, 100,000 a day, and it's awesome. Uh but but I am not equipped uh nor wired nor designed to shepherd people, to marry, bury, um to oversee a team, to put together a talk every Sunday. I don't have that gifting. And so I think there's levels to it. And and when I meet real pastors that are like, "Hey, I'm sitting with the men. I'm doing the counseling. I'm doing the funerals. I'm showing up to the hospitals. I'm preaching and I'm leading a staff." That's a very different gift set. And so what what do you think about that? Like do you think that there are perhaps some folks that went into ministry because it was the linear trajectory for their career, but they weren't equipped to be shepherds

But they weren't equipped to be shepherds on the front lines pastoring.

Look, how controversial do you want your show to go? I I You you could cuz cuz people are going to respect you and and and your legacy and what you come from. So yeah, go go for it. I'm going to say something. It's 100% true. Very few people think about it. It answers exactly what you just said. And in a strange way, if he's listening to your podcast, um he'll appreciate what I'm saying. You just articulated this reality. Greg Laurie shows up to Anaheim Stadium and 65,000 people show up and 6,000 people get saved. Greg Laurie could read a menu at at Cheesecake Factory and people get saved. Why? He is an evangelist. He is called. It is obvious. It is so crystal clear. And but I defend Greg Laurie when I hear what I'm what I'm going to about to tell you. And this is where the podcast will either blow up or sink. People will come to me and say, "Pastor Jack, I just love the fact that you greet people and you're in the foyer and you're in the courtyard and you're saying hi to people after service. My pastor doesn't do that. Greg Laurie didn't do that. He drives in, he teaches, he drives away." And I say, "Wait a minute. Whoa whoa whoa whoa wait. First of all, I have some loyalty to him. The guy led me to Christ. But but but forget that. Greg Laurie's an evangelist, but he was talked into He was pigeonholed as a pastor. And people don't like that they can't have access to him. They want him to marry, bury, counsel in these things. He's not called to do that. Greg knows his lane. He stays in it and the rest is history. He is an anointed evangelist. Is he a pastor teacher? I don't think so. I'm going to get mail on this. But I'm standing on on on the firm word. There's pastor teacher and of course there's overlapping gifts, but there's also the gift of evangelist. Which one does Greg Laurie most fit? A profound calling, primary calling, clearly evangelist. Me? I can't lead anybody to Christ. I will mess it up so bad. But once you lead them to Christ, give them to me cuz I'll disciple them. I'll teach them the word. You know your lane and you're a young man and you're wise in recognizing that. A lot of people think they've either got to do everything or they're supposed to be the next whatsoever. And they're like the round peg in the square. It it's just not working. And um you're going to have some You're going to have to have some trust in the Lord to speak to you about your gifting and calling. And when you do that and trust him, I think that's when a person's ministry will blossom.

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's that's definitely uh that's definitely a hot take. And I and I love uh Pastor Greg.

He's also extremely creative. Oh, he is.

And and extremely profi- uh prolific. Like he's written 100 books or something crazy.

He Well, you said creative. Do you you you know what he

Have you been to his office? I I mean he's been here and and this This is the coolest thing ever. When he was here, we didn't have this bathroom. So he's I think he was the first guest in this room. We had just moved in. And he walked in through where you walked in and he had to go use the other bathroom. My kids were there just like they were here doing homeschool. And he ended up stopping and spending like 15 minutes just drawing pictures for them and just hang It was the sweetest thing. I got video of it. I'll show you after. Maybe I'll play it here. I don't really show my family online, but it was the coolest thing. So he's so creative. That's exactly why I just asked you this. If you go to his office or if you look at his notes, his sermon notes, uh I Look, Greg Laurie sells best-selling books. I think Greg Laurie should actually put his notes together and sell those because they're brilliant. Um what he how he thinks, um I can relate to him in a very tiny way. I wish I could be more like him, but Greg is Technicolor. And he and he's a great cartoonist. And remember his ambition was to work for Disney. He wanted to be an illustrator or cartoonist for Disney. That said, it comes across so beautifully in his evangelistic delivery. Um but I would to God that more Christians knew their lane, right? I think the church would do better if we operated in our lane and some of the old greats would say that if that happened in your local church where people served with their gift in their lane, your church would have a revival.

Mhm. Amen. Amen. Okay, so let's talk about Israel a little bit because the the reason you got recommended to to to to chat Yeah, so it was a couple friends of mine that go to your church and every time I do a video about Israel I I would read the scriptures my I would say you know we we got to get Romans 11:25 all of Israel will be saved and I'll say man I think Israel something is going to happen in the future with Israel. I don't know what that is and I've been to Israel and I love Israel. However, I do believe that the church is God's people for today but there's some sort of promise for Israel in the future. I don't know what that looks like.

Oh, this is awesome.

And now that that now I what I don't think is we go to the extreme of giving the government specifically Benjamin Netanyahu a a blank check to do whatever he wants and if there are things that are questionable and I pointed to a specific couple things we should say hey that's not okay. That's that's bad, right? And so every time I have this conversation I have folks that go you're a dispensationalist. You just don't know. You're a dispensationalist cuz you're using dispensational language. Yeah and I have multiple friends friends say that my buddy Ear to Hear has a great YouTube channel called Ear to Hear. He said that Mike David from a group called Sharp Dialect he goes to your church as well has said that to me and so every time I have this conversation I'm like yeah like I think the church is the church and is the people of God. I don't like the idea of new Israel. I don't I don't like that terminology, right? But I think they're grafted in and then I think there's some sort of uniqueness to whatever's going to happen in the future with Israel. I hope it's a future revival. I don't know how it connects to the eschatology, right? Are you a pre-millennial a post-millennial? I I'm a pan-millennial. I think it'll all pan out in the end, right? I don't I don't know how it's going to work but there seems to be something there. So help me understand um I don't my understanding of dispensationalism is the extreme versions where people say stuff like Andrew Klavan from the Daily Wire for example and I love the Daily Wire and I love and I love Ben Shapiro says stuff like Ben Shapiro doesn't need to come to Jesus. He's doing just fine and if you came to Jesus it would be bad. I've I've heard other folks I can't think of the names but saying stuff like Jews don't need to be saved. They don't need to come to Jesus, right? And I've heard that side of dispensationalism which I would reject. I don't think that's biblical. But I do believe the church is the the children of God. I believe we are grafted in and that is how God primarily moves today is through the local church. So am I a dispensationalist or am I not a dispensationalist? Help me understand.

This is beautiful.

Okay, you're going to fix all this for me. I mean, I hope to for and I'm nobody special. It's not me. So let's So imagine for a moment all of your all of your viewers taking a big deep breath and letting that out and read the Bible start in Genesis. So what do we know? The word first of all dispensation it appears in the scripture. Let's remember that. It appears in the book of Ephesians for one thing twice. That said what does it mean? What what part of Ephesians do you remember? Ephesians chapter 1 and 3 I believe it is. What translation cuz I can pull it up? New King James. Okay, New King James, okay. And I I apologize. I've got my Bible but my eyes are shot today. Okay, so you tell me when you get there. So it appears in the Bible and a lot of people who have a certain bent they don't even like to admit that it appears in the Bible. Ephesians 1 and I think also chapter 3. Dispensation in the English. What does it mean? It simply means the in fact if you look up the word it's going to say something to the effect in the Greek the management of a household of time or the management or the prerogative of a governor regarding time or resources. It's an it's an interesting word because when we think dispensation I think most people think like that it's a problem. It's not and and I got it on the screen for you by the way. You can't see it but we see it here. That that in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather one all things to Christ which both of which are in heaven and which are on earth. So go ahead I just wanted to pull that up. Notice the context. Notice what you just read. In fact can you can you do it again? Can you read what you just read and listen everybody very carefully? Yeah, so it says that in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ. All of that is what's known as prescient or eschatological. It's looking to the future. Big fancy words simply means looking to the future. The dispensation is always connected with time. And I have it pulled up here in the Greek too by the way. Dispensation is always connected to time. If everyone takes that deep breath and listens it's a time issue. Number two the meaning of the word is management. It means to manage time. Isn't it interesting that Isaiah 9:6 tells us that Jesus Christ regarding speaking of the Messiah a Messianic passage of Isaiah 9:6 that he is that he is the the the prince of peace the counselor and the father. It it calls Jesus father. It's a wait a minute we have two fathers? No no no look it up in the original Hebrew and it's Jesus is the governor of time. He is the one that presides over time. Watch this. And I'm going to try to pull this together. Book of Hebrews opens up and says that in times time in times past God spoke to the fathers through the prophets. However, he now in the last days these days time has spoken to us by his own son. What did I just tell you? I just gave you the definition of the word dispensation the management of time. In Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is the governor of time. Of course Psalm 40 also the book of Hebrews behold in the volume of the book it is written of me speaking of Messiah. So Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning God created. You know this well. There's no such thing as physical creation unless you have time. God existed outside of time. He's timeless. When he created time all things physical and people forget time is physical. We know that in a laboratory. We can tamper with time. That said people freak out over dispensationalism conversations and I'm going to be blunt. People freak out over dispensational issues because it doesn't fit their man-made theology. Now there I go I said it. So what do you mean by that? If you do not adhere to the Bible letting it speak for itself let it talk. I'll be sarcastic lovingly sarcastic. Couldn't the God who made this whole thing talk to us plainly? I believe he can and he did and he does. That said we have the time management between from creation of the physical universe to the creation of Adam. That took a time. You could argue the dispensations of the days of creation. Were they actual days? Were there millions of years between days? I don't care what you talk about. You're talking about time. That's a definition of a dispensation. Now from the creation of Adam to to what? The coming of Abraham. That's a dispensation of time. The way God was speaking after Adam coming up to Abraham God was doing what God does. He's sovereign over time. Then you've got the Abrahamic covenant. You've got Noah. You've got Abraham. You've got multiple covenants. Instead of people figuring it out that this happens that in various times God spoke and now does through his son. That's actually dispensational and people get all upset because if you actually believe what it says and you don't want to because you've got a denominational I'm going to get you're okay everybody. Get mad at me. He's he's okay. You can get mad at me. If you if you follow your denomination more than the Bible like so for example you could ask me my loyalties to Calvary Chapel. Answer none. If Calvary Chapel departs from the Bible I'm departing from Calvary Chapel. How's that? Okay that said if you let the word speak for what it says here's what you find out that in the fullness of time God sent forth his son born of a woman born under the law Galatians 4:4. That's a dispensation. You can't argue it any other way. Well, if that's true, was there a time when God created a man whose name was Jacob and God called him Israel after they had the wrestling match. And so God says your name's not Jacob anymore. It's Israel. And from you there will be generations that come from you and I will establish you forever. God said forever. And so this man Israel happens and this this Israel comes together. This Israel I'm fast forwarding. You've got these people that have now disobeyed God dramatically. They're in exile in Egypt and God calls Moses to bring them out and he brought them out with a mighty hand and what did God do? How could he do this? God introduces yet again another act of dispensationalism. He gives them the law. That is God working in time and it's not a problem. We do it every day. You might eat breakfast at Mimi's and then you guys choose to eat at the Cheesecake Factory this evening. There's no crime. The crime would be failing to recognize that God moves in certain ways at certain times. However, he never contradicts himself. That would then make him not God. So we come now to the the problem of Israel. What in the world is going on? People are are getting rabid over the issue of Israel. Why are they? Why are they? Because I'm looking at Jeremiah 31. Did you know that Jeremiah 31 verse 31 as well, starting there, says that I am going to bring you back. I'm going to take out of your chest the heart of stone and I'm going to put within you a heart of flesh and I'm going to write my law in your heart. And and listen to this. He says, I'm going to abolish the covenant I made with you. I know you're typing but are you listening?

Listening. I got it on the screen for

Brother. Cuz I'm loving on you first on this. God right here says I'm going to take the covenant that I gave you and you broke it. And I'm going to replace it with a new He says new covenant right here in Jeremiah. That's the New Testament experience. He prophesies about it right here and he says to the Jew, he says I'm going to write it on your heart in the future. I'm going to put it in you. You're not going to have it on stone. I'm going to put it in you. Guess what the born again experience is? Having the law of God written on your heart. How do I know that? Well, it actually happened to the first Jew. I should say this. I could say I could answer this way. In some ways it happened to Abraham first. Remember that guy Abraham was a Gentile before he was ever a Jew. That always freaks out my Jewish friends. He was from the Ur of the Chaldees. He was a pagan worshiper. God called him a Jew. So so fast forward when somebody says like Andrew or Ben, hey, you Christians whatever you're doing whatever uh we've got a different path to salvation. Really? I don't think so because the Jew of Jews, Jesus said to a pretty big deal of a

Jew, Nicodemus, he was the teacher of Israel. What did Jesus say to him? Keep the law? No. He said, "You must be born again." The first person who was told to be born again was a Jew being told by a Jew. Think of it.

The law was given that you and I would realize that we are sinners. Nowhere, in fact, I'll prove my point. Cuz I've, I've, I love Jewish people and I'm not going to name some names, but off camera, we'll talk later. Um, that there's some famous Jews in America that have become followers of Messiah, Yeshua. They're not, they can't announce it yet. How do I know? Because I've prayed with them. And there are some that are close and there's some that said, "I hear what you're saying. I understand it better now. I don't want to ever talk about this again."

That said, check it out. God says throughout the entire Old Testament, "If I don't keep my promises to Israel, may the sun never rise." That's by the way, that's Jeremiah again. "If I don't keep my promises to Israel, the sun will not rise. It will not set. The heavenly bodies will not stay in their courses." Uh, the day that that happens is the day that I break my covenant with Israel.

Notice this. Here's the shocker. If God doesn't keep his covenant promises with Israel, then I, as a Gentile believer in Jesus and Yeshua, I have no hope. Israel is a pain in the butt to God. He said so. "You are a stiff-necked, rebellious people. Every time I do something for you, you throw it back in my face. You go," he in the old King James, he says, "you go whoring after other gods. Come back to me. If you don't come back, I'm going to remove my hand of blessing. You're going to be driven to all the four corners of the earth and I'm not going to talk to you again until I regather you in the last days."

Think about that. Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Joel, uh, Zechariah, Revelation, Matthew 24, Matthew 25, it's all about the Jews coming back in the last days. So that, my friend, is what gets people lit up and they say things like this. "Nope, the the Jews are illegitimate." And by the way, while we, while we dumb dumb Christians argue over this, the Muslim is off to the side clapping at our argument because from the river to the sea, baby, Islam teaches no more Jew, no more Jerusalem, none of that stuff. So you Christians just keep tearing yourselves apart and the Jew, we, we're loving it. Be careful. I'll say it again. If God doesn't keep his covenant promises with Israel, I ain't got no hope.

How would you say this is different from covenant theology, which I want to say some of the like Eastern Orthodox folks and I don't think the think the Catholics hold to it as well, right? How is it different from covenant theology?

>> Yeah, you cannot hold to one flavor. It's not like Baskin-Robbins where you walk in, I'll take that one. You cannot hold just to one flavor. So, for example, if you say, um, "I am a, a covenant theology individual," you need to understand, are you sure? You better check the basket that holds all the rest of that stuff because your eschatology is going to be screwy. You're going to have to now spiritualize scripture. "That's not really what he meant." You'll hear this a lot. "Well, what I believe this is saying, it's what he really meant was..." Beware of that kind of talk. God is so good that he not only says it once, he says it over and over and over again because we're, we're kind of hard-headed. So covenant theology, I would, I would watch out for that. I would watch out for obviously replacement theology, which again is, Muslims love Christians' doctrine on replacement theology.

But isn't it interesting though, replacement theology says Israel has abandoned God, so he's abandoned them. We've taken their place and so we inherit everything that was given to them. Are you sure you want to stick with that? Because if you're going to be true to your logic, you are actually picking all the blessings that God said he'll give, and God said, "If you disobey me, here's the curses." And if some Christian comes up to you and says, "Oh, I've never disobeyed God." Or, for example, if the Presbyterian or denomination says, "Oh, we were, we were perfectly obedient to God." I mean, come on, nobody is. So you just can't say, "Well, we'll take the blessings of Israel but not the disobedient curses." Replacement theology makes no sense. It doesn't make any sense.

So, um, sorry. No, that's good. That's good. Okay, so in terms of, cuz I have eschatology questions for you, but in, in terms of some of the pushbacks of this, and they're coming in the comments, just so you know. They're going to be, they're going to say, "Well, well, what, what do you, how do you come to the conclusion that the modern state of Israel established in 1948 is the same Israel in the scripture?" And, and more specifically, you know, "Hey, they're, they're secular. They are pro-choice, you know, pro-LGBT." Yeah. All the, all the things. And then you have their own eschatology that some would say on the, on the far right end of the spectrum in Israel is perhaps driving some of the mistreatment of the Palestinian people.

Yeah, I'm not denying any of that. I would be an idiot to deny any of that. But here's the truth. The truth is in Ezekiel. God says, by the way, everyone read Ezekiel chapter 36, 37, and 38. This is about all the nations rising up against Israel in the last day.

>> More than that, because it starts out with him saying, "Ezekiel, take a look at what you see. I see a valley of dry bones. Everybody's dead." And he says, "Can those bones live again?" And he said, "Only you know, Lord." And he says, "Those bones is the house of Israel. They've been dispersed to all the nations of the world. In the last days, I'm going to breathe my breath." And God, listen, in the vision Ezekiel sees God breathing his breath over the bones, and the bones stand up, and the, it says the sinew comes on to the joints, and the flesh come on, and, and God tells Ezekiel again, "That's the house of Israel." And here's where it gets incredibly awesome. This is why Bible prophecy is, is designed to embolden us. God says to Ezekiel, "They're, I'm going to call them back into their own land from all, from the four corners of the earth in the last days, and they're going to come back in unbelief. But I'm going to gather them. They're going to till the land." So stop everybody. Prior to 1948, what was the land of Israel like? By the way, I'd encourage all of you to go to YouTube to PragerU and type in "The Israel Test" by George Gilder. The guy's not even a Christian, I don't think. And he's not a Jew, either. George Gilder. Go take the Israel Test. Prior to 1948, Israel was a dust bowl. God says, "I'm going to bring them back. They're going to plant vineyards. They're going to harvest wine. They're going to raise cattle. And they're going to take the waste places and they're going to make them inhabitable again." All in unbelief. It's not until Ezekiel 38 that God rescues them from a war and it says, "And then they will believe in me." Interesting.

>> Everything's tracking perfectly right now. Okay, so I got Ezekiel 37 pulled up here. And I'm trying to find the verse about, you said, you said in the last days, they, they will be dry bones will be revived and come back to the Lord.

>> Chapter 36, 37, and then the battle begins happens in 38. That's when their eyes are opened. Interesting. Okay. So, I've, I've, I've heard about the nations rising up to the Lord. This idea of, yes, so then he said, "Speak a prophetic message to these and say, 'Dry bones, listen to the word of the Lord. This is what the sovereign Lord says, "Look, I am going to put breath into you and make you live again. I will put flesh and muscles on you and cover your skin. I will put breath into you and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord."'" And so, you're saying this is about Israel being, being hardened.

>> If you read all of that chapter, it says he says it's Israel. So, don't take my word for it. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm specifically asking about Israel being hardened to the gospel that we see in in Romans 11.

>> Romans 9, 10, and 11.

>> Yeah, where, where Paul is writing, "I don't want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited. Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And this, and in this way, all Israel will be saved. As it is written, 'The deliverer will come from Zion. He will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.' As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake, but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs."

>> Wow. "For God's gifts and his calls are irrevocable." I, I think this is the part when I read this.

>> Comfort because he's not, he's not going to lose me.

>> Yep. If he keeps them, he'll keep you and I.

>> Yeah, that's good. I think, I think it's very difficult to read this, especially in context of what you just showed us in Ezekiel, and say that there doesn't seem to be some sort of future plan.

>> Context is king, man.

>> For, for the, the, the children of Israel to come back. They're coming. The Bible said they would come back in unbelief, and he would restore them before his coming. In fact, you know what's very cool? You said you've been to Israel. Yep.

>> Do you remember, I don't know how familiar you are to the Eastern Gate? It's also referred to as the Golden Gate. But did you know that in the year 1080 or 1100, the Muslims, the Ottomans, they literally read the scriptures and understood, and this is in Islamic writings. I'm sorry, you're going to have to get the exact data from a guy by the name of Jay Smith, who you should have on this show. He's the greatest living Islamic apologist, apologist, but he's a Christian. He famously knows Islam better than Muslims. They've admitted that. He speaks and reads and writes fluent Arabic. He, Jay Smith. That said, listen to this. When the Ottomans came and took Jerusalem, they put Gentile dead bodies in front of the Eastern Gate because the latter end of the Hebrew prophets, Ezekiel's one of them, it says that when he comes back, he, the Messiah will go through the Eastern Gate. Now, you've read this before, where his, his foot will touch the Mount of Olives, it will split. That's from Ezekiel 40 on out, and the water will gush forth, and he will enter the Golden Gate. This is the second coming, the events of the second coming. The Muslims read that and said, "We know how to, we know how to stop a Jewish Messiah. He can't walk through a graveyard. He'd be unclean. We'll make it a graveyard." Isn't that amazing? They believe it. A lot of Christians don't believe it.

Interesting. Okay. I, I love it. So, in terms of modern-day Israel,

>> Yes.

>> how does one navigate with modern-day Israel regarding

>> Yeah.

>> what's happening in Gaza?

>> Do everything you can to bring them to Christ. Let's take Gaza. Okay. How much do we know about Gaza? Have we been to Gaza? What, who are we listening to? Simple. Let's start here. Um, how about if we go to, we, let's go to the spectrum. Spectrum to the right is like All Israel News, Joel Rosenberg. So, we'll get his news reporters. And then let's go all the way to the other side of the spectrum and let's get, there's not much of a difference between, um, BBC, Al Jazeera. They're both covering the exact same event and they're both saying the opposite things. Here we are in America, fat, dumb, and happy. What, what do we even know what we're talking about? Have we seen what's happening? Have you been to Israel? Have, have I been to Israel where we're going through Bethlehem and I see news reporters paying kids $20 bills to throw rocks at our tour bus? Yes, I have. What's that all about? News is made sometimes. Sometimes news doesn't happen. But I am not saying that Israel's sinless. How about this? The same scrutiny I apply to Israel and to Netanyahu, I apply to Trump and to the United States of America. Which, by the way, is the same level of scrutiny I apply to Canada and their prime minister. But what a weird thing is, none of those countries I just mentioned does God claim to have a covenant with them. Does it make them sinless? They're, they're not. But we need to be careful because it's easy for us to throw rocks across the pond, so to speak. But I have, you mentioned being with the SEALs. I've had the honor of being with the, the IAF. You don't hear much about the, the IAF. The Israeli Air Force. I have seen in real time Israel's response while I was in Israel on an airbase when rockets were launched from Southern Lebanon. And I watched how Israel responded. I was there for about four hours. And you're watching overhead. Israel did absolutely nothing. It doesn't mean they're not going to do something later, but here's what happened. The day that I was there, it was discovered that rockets were being launched out of an elementary school in Southern Lebanon. Israel identified that it was a school. They chose not to attack that school. Their reason for, they took seven rocket launchers into Israel, and they never once attacked that school. That's why. And maybe you know, there's a famous British general who does podcasts and he did a video again at PragerU. And this guy said, "Israel is the most, the IDF is the most moral military that he has ever seen on Earth." Now, keep that in mind. War is hell, as the proverb goes, and no one's sinless. But we need to be careful that while we're throwing stones at Israel, we can throw those same stones at America. The point is this, it's not going to be right till Jesus comes back. So, what do we do? We need to witness to every Palestinian the love of Jesus. I happen to be heavily involved in a group called A Home. Uh, people from our church, they're not going to know this. They're going to find out from your program right now. I am very, very involved with Hospital Outreach Middle East. That organization is a wing of Samaritan's Purse. It is an outreach to provide medical care to Muslim women and children because, I'll just say that they don't get good medical care, women and children in Islam. Why do we do this? Because when we're giving them medical care, we're giving them the gospel. Okay? What about Jews? Jews need their Messiah. They need to hear. And if we get a chance, I'd love to show you. You'll, you'll appreciate this. I will show you a verse that to this date, after being a Christian for 49 years, I've never had one rabbi refute the verse about Messiah from the Old Testament. So, you can't let me go. I'm an old guy. I'm going to trust you. You got to remind me. That said, the Bible commands you and me to provoke the Jew to jealousy, doesn't it? We are supposed to cause them to want the Messiah that we know. And when we say to them, "Hey, you know what? I don't know, I don't know what's going on with Netanyahu. I don't know what's up, but your, your prophets told me that God sets up kings and he tears kings down. That's God's business. Let's pray for him. And let's expose what's wrong. Of course. But let's keep this in mind. Being a Gentile, I'm a Gentile, but my God's Jewish. Jesus died on the cross. He's the king of the Jews. And you guys should listen to him. Oh, we can't do that. We can't do that. He was a heretic. Well, I can prove to you that he wasn't. And my dialogue with Jews, it's fun. But I'm telling you, don't let someone say to you, "Well, we just have to turn a blind eye to all that Israel's doing." That's stupid. No, you don't. But you need to understand God said, "I'm going to bring them back. They're not going to believe in me. They won't believe in me until until I, Ezekiel 38, supernaturally deliver them from an incredible invasion." Then timestamp, there you go. Timestamp the word "then." You have to look at the word "then" in light of that word again, that dirty word, dispensation, because God says, "When this war takes place, then they will begin to believe in me." That's a dispensation.

Yeah, so it sounds like you're saying you don't just turn a blind eye if and when Israel misbehaves. You don't, you, you definitely believe Jews need Jesus and they need to place their faith in Jesus. You are saying that there is some sort of future great awakening that's going to happen when there's a deliverance that happens. And so do you think that there's time and place to correct folks that perhaps go too far on the pro-Israel side where they're like, "Hey, you know, any critique you present is always because that's just so you know, that's what I'm like. I went on the Sean Ryan podcast and I said..."

>> I love that guy. I want to go on his podcast. He doesn't, he doesn't know who I am, but I love that guy's show. He is so, I read the verse and I said, "Hey man, we, we don't like what's happening in Gaza, but for me, it's very difficult to look at Romans, to look at Ezekiel and not acknowledge that God has some sort of future plan for Israel." And even in the most gentle critique, I have some household names. I'll tell you who they are offline that are messaging me and saying, "I need to be re-educated on Israel and I don't know what I'm talking about." Like, I've been to Israel. I've been to Gaza. I've, I've seen these sorts of things. I'm also Armenian, and so I've been to the Armenian quarter, which isn't open to most people, right? Unless you know someone there. So I also know some of the tensions that Armenians face. I know some of the tensions that the Christians face. I, I actually know much more about Israel than the average person. And so it's like, there, there is this idea that like, any criticism about anything related to Israel is met with such a vitriol, and everything is anti-Semitic. I think it's ignorance. And, and I go, "Hey, like, I don't think that." I was talking to, um, I was talking to Michael Knowles, and he was talking about, "Hey, you know, they, they shot a church in Gaza. Don't, the one of the few standing churches." And he said, "Hey, they're saying that it was an accident." And he was like, "And I could say that I think we need less accidents to churches in Gaza." Who?

>> Here's what I would say because again, remember my background is is more science. Let's, let's see if it can, let's see if we can create it and then break it. So I would ask Michael Knowles sarcastically, I'm just lovingly being sarcastic. "Hey Michael, who said it was an accident?"

>> The IDF said it was an accident.

>> Okay, so in the IDF, who said it was an accident? How did you, how did you determine it's an accident, Mr. IDF person? Oh, because Billy Bob over here pulled the trigger while he was sneezing or something. We just need to question things before we judge things. Let's do some fact-finding, and I'm all for that. But please, people need to realize that the Candace Owens approach is actually borderline mental case.

>> Okay, tell me more.

>> Seriously wrong. What do you, what do you mean? "The Jews did everything. The Jews killed Charlie. The Jews, everything about the Jews." And it's, it's the Jews, the Jews. And honestly, if they're that powerful, then why aren't things way better for them? If they control Hollywood, why do they absolutely wreak at controlling PR? They're terrible at it. If the Jews are so fantastic at all this stuff that she claims they are, or so bad that they are, everything is, she's just, I'm sorry to say it, uh, just blame the Jew. In fact, I don't know if you saw what's his face? Who's the guy? Tatum. Officer Tatum. Just Brandon Tatum, yeah, yeah. I, I just talked to Brandon a couple days ago.

>> A cool podcast, man, about about the Jews being blamed for everything. We have to be careful. We cannot blame the Canadians for everything.

>> Well, we're not talking about Canadians. That's exactly right. But we cannot just, I tell you what, if the conclusion regarding world events is easy for us to immediately spew, we're probably wrong.

>> Yeah, yeah. No, I would agree. Um, I think the idea that the, the Jews are, I think it's so ridiculous because the second most populated Jewish city is New York City. Mhm. And they're about to elect a Marxist Muslim

>> Yeah.

>> Mayor. Yep. And so it's like, if they control everything, yeah, what's with that?

>> Well, they can't even control their own city.

>> Exactly. Hey, so I got to ask you. So you, you mentioned a few times, three times regarding the future regarding Israel. We can have some fun with this this way. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is going to return to Earth?

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> Then where is he going to return to?

>> I want to say Jerusalem.

>> Why do you want to say that?

>> I mean, that's always been my reading of the scripture.

>> Yes, you read it in the scripture. Not only does it say Jerusalem, it says that he's going to set up his throne. Do you know, do you know where?

>> In Zion.

>> Do you know where Zion is? Cuz you've been there. You may not remember, but you, you probably walked all around it. Mount Moriah is a long, it's an elongated hilltop that is like a mesa that is pitched. That's where the Temple Mount is, right?

>> Correct.

>> So watch my, watch my hands. So here's the city of David. If you took that archaeological, there's the city of David, and then you go up, and then you've got the Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is the gray dome, and then you have the Dome of the Rock Mosque. That's the different, that's the other one, the famous one. And then you've got the Temple Mount area, and if you keep going up, you go outside the, the old walled city. The bus station is over there. It's the northern gate. That's how you get to Damascus. There is a hilltop there, the highest ground of Moriah. It's not rocket science. It's a place called Golgotha. That's the high ground. Way down below, and I may be off, but I won't be too far off, from Golgotha to David is maybe three football fields. I'm guessing, okay? Yeah, it's not very far. One's way, way low, one's way high. The way high point is, is the top of Moriah. In Genesis, when God took Isaac to Moriah, it says Moriah. Would, would, would, would Abraham remember in his paganism, by the way, it's true in biblical stuff, and it's true in pagan stuff. When you're going to make an offering, what do we see? We always go to the high ground. We go to the mountain or the high peak. That's where we do it. Who knows why? Where would, what, where would Abraham go? He tells his two servants, "Wait here. We will go up and worship and we will come back to you." What a prophetic statement, right? Where would he have gone? He would have gone to Moriah's peak called Golgotha. Fast forward, I believe that was prophecy being lived out. The father, by the way, Isaac carried the wood. So did Jesus. Okay, that said, God's going to repeat that. The reason why I asked you that question about, "Do you think Jesus?" If you don't want Jesus to come back, and if you don't believe, according to your theology, he is coming back, then Israel's not important to you. Neither is Jerusalem. In fact, why don't you plant some dead bodies in front of the gate and why don't you rename the city Aelia Capitolina and remove, in 135 AD, 135 AD, remove the name Israel because you, the emperor Hadrian in Rome, and to finally insult your arch enemies who drive you nuts, these Jews, you are going to name them after the ancient Philistines, but in Latin, it's Palestinian, Palestine. There was no such thing until 135 AD. If you want to erase the Jews, you better, you might want to rethink your strategy because Christ is coming back. He's coming back to be the king of Jerusalem. His throne's going to be in Zion, and if Jesus doesn't sit on the throne of David, we got the wrong one.

Yeah, yeah, I've always understood it that the same place where Abraham was willing to offer Isaac as a sacrifice, same place where the temple was, right? And then there was another historical moment there. Um, there's a lot of historical moments there. When David, when, remember this is kind of cool. Remember when the, when they brought the ark of the covenant to Moriah? David remarkably, they would have parked it probably where the temple area would be, but David, it says that David went up to the higher ground and he pitched his tent and he worshipped the Lord there in his own tent. I can't prove this. This is kind of romantic, but I wouldn't doubt if David worshipped the Lord at what is called Golgotha.

That's interesting. And you're saying according to scripture, Jesus is going to come back to Golgotha?

>> Well, it doesn't say Golgotha. Golgotha, it says that Jesus is coming back to Jerusalem. Right? Ezekiel 40, 3 to 45 tells us that he's going to establish his, a temple. He's going to have a temple there. So I'm assuming that's going to be on the Temple Mount. Uh, and that he's got to be enthroned in Zion. Mhm. For Jesus to fulfill ancient prophet, Hebrew prophets, he's got to be enthroned in Zion. Mhm. Um, you remember Palm Sunday, the people started shouting, "Hosanna, Hosanna, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." Go back now and read in the Old Testament, for example, Psalm 118 and others, when is that going to happen? Isn't it interesting? Jesus says, "You're not going to see me again..."

>> Mhm.

>> "...until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" Translation, my translation. I came, the nation rejected me. Not, by the way, the nation. Many Jews believed in him. Mhm. Remember the first church was all Jewish.

>> Yeah, that's right.

>> We forget that.

>> But he says to the nation, "The next time you see me, you will say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" He's speaking of the nation. Mhm. That means there's going to be a nation. Is it Netanyahu? Forget about the Netanyahu stuff. These guys are there in unbelief. They're, they're legit. God brought them back, but are they born-again believers? No, they're not supposed to be. But as I meet a Jew, I do everything I can to lead a Jew to their Messiah.

>> Mhm.

>> And someday. Look, there's, there's individual salvation like you, like me. I have Jewish friends who are, who are, they don't like using the term born-again, but they'll say, "Yeah, I'm born-again, but I'm a believer." That's how they refer to themselves, believer. Cuz you, I don't know if you, if you remember ancient history, church history, the Christians were not called Christians until Antioch.

>> Mhm.

>> When the pagan Romans were making fun of us and they called us little, little Messiahs.

>> Mhm. Mhm.

>> Cuz we're running around telling everybody about his message. The Jews, they, they don't like the label Christian. Okay, fine. I don't care. In fact, I'm not sure if I like it anymore because everybody seems to be a Christian on Sunday. Satan might be a Christian on Sunday. I like being called a believer. I love that. So that said, man, if there's no Israel, if there's no future to Israel, I ain't got no hope.

>> Mhm. Mhm. Interesting. Okay. No, I like it. I think it's a balanced, uh, perspective on it from everything I'm hearing. I don't, I don't disagree with anything you just said. So it's, so it's interesting. So then those folks who would say the Jews don't need to be saved, and they're doing it in the name of the same prophecies, they're doing it in the name of the same or or similar dispensational viewing, would you say they're, they're off and they're wrong?

>> They're off. They need to evangelize the Jew. Mhm. They need to go find a Jew. Uh, you know what? You're making me think. I'm, I wonder why they don't tell the Jew the gospel because you, do you know Jews will not read the New Testament, right?

>> Mhm. Mhm.

>> So how did Paul the Apostle, how did Jesus, how did Peter, how did James and John preach the gospel and prove that Jesus was the Messiah without the New Testament?

>> They preached it from the Old Testament.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So today, you know what? I think if we just slowed down and made, became better students of the Old Testament,

>> Mhm.

>> we should be able to argue that Jesus is the Messiah from the Old Testament just like the first-century church did.

>> Mhm. Right?

>> Yeah, that's good. That's good. Okay, so you told me you had a Bible verse from the Old Testament that proves Jesus is the Messiah. I can pull it up here on, in the Logos too.

>> Your will, your audience see it?

>> Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a screen here. You probably can't see it, but there's a screen that's.

>> So here we go. Okay, what's the verse say?

>> This is the everlasting Jew stopper. Okay. Proverbs 30 verse four. Before you read it, backstory. Okay. Every time for nearly 50 years that I've read this to a rabbi or a Jewish friend, I'll do it in English 'cause that's what I know. Mhm. They will tell me, "I'm sure that's a mistranslation."

>> Mhm.

>> "I'm sure that's wrong. It can't be that in Hebrew."

>> I've heard that a couple times from folks who are, they don't like the Isaiah Jewish folks that don't like the Isaiah passages and they're like, "Oh, that was contaminated and that's the..."

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> That's what they're told. They call it the forbidden scriptures.

>> Uh-huh. Their rabbis told them.

>> Yeah, 'cause it is, the suffering servant is just like a spitting image of Jesus. Yeah, absolutely.

>> What? This is cool. I'm so glad you just said this. I'm going to give you a forbidden verse. Okay. Here's the cool thing. How many, wait, wait, before before you get there, cuz, cuz I, I love what you're doing. How many forbidden verses are there for the Jews? You're talking about, and I'm not going to get them all.

>> Sure. You're talking about Isaiah 7, Isaiah 9.

>> Mhm.

>> You're talking about Isaiah 53, forbidden. You're talking about Daniel, the book. Forbidden. You say, "Why would they forbid Daniel?"

>> Mhm.

>> Because eventually you're going to get to Daniel chapter 9.

>> Mhm.

>> If you keep reading Daniel chapter 9, you're going to get to verses 24 to 27. Mhm. Okay? And here's one of them. Here's one that has slipped through. So did they take it out of their Bible? Did they take it out of there?

>> It out.

>> Don't read it.

>> Tell them. They tell them, "You skip this." I, I tell you what. Um, very prominent, very, very prominent Jew visiting Los Angeles knows who I am, came to my house, we started talking scripture. What he wasn't ready for is that I said, "I want to show you Messiah, Yeshua from the Old Testament." He said, "That's impossible. This is going to be great. Go ahead." So I start doing it and he says, for example, "First of all, that verse you just said, what verse? 'They pierced his hands and his feet'? Don't tell me Old, don't tell me New Testament."

>> Mhm.

>> I didn't. It's Psalm 22. He said, "No, it's not." I said, "Do you have your Hebrew Bible?" He said, "Of course I do. I have it on my phone." He goes, he reads in Hebrew, Psalm 22.

>> He's, he breaks off in English. Him and his wife start yelling at each other. You know what they were, you know what they were yelling about? Neither one of them, growing up, he grew up in Yemen, she grew up in Israel, neither one of their rabbis ever told them about Psalm 22.

>> Mhm.

>> Why would he? It proves that the Messiah would be pierced in his hands and his feet. So here's the whopper.

>> Mhm.

>> It is Proverbs 30 verse four. It slipped through. They failed to block this one. Okay. I'll put it here. I'm going to put it on the screen.

>> And if you're Hebrew, go read it in Hebrew.

>> Okay. So I got, I got it up in the NLT. I can pull up any translation you want, but, uh, Proverbs chapter 30 verse four says, "Who but God goes up to heaven and comes back down? Who holds the wind in his fists? Who wraps up the oceans in his cloak? Who has created the whole wide world? What is his name and his son's name? Tell me if you know."

>> Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So, yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. That's great. So all around the Dome of the Rock Mosque,

>> Mhm.

>> it's in blue and yellow font, Arabic.

>> Mhm.

>> You know what it says?

>> Mhm.

>> "God is not begotten." Okay, I agree. God was never born. I get it. He's eternal. Mhm. "Nor does God have a son."

>> Mhm.

>> Did you know it says that in Arabic all around the Dome of the Rock Mosque? Why is that, why is that a big deal? Why do Muslims want the world to know that God doesn't have a son?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's good. No, that's great. All right, I think you made a really strong case for this. Okay, can I ask you a couple more questions about this and, and we can move on? Talk about whatever you want. So the, the, the John Hagee is the dual covenant theology guy that says that, uh, Jews don't need to be saved. That's who he is, and I think that gets lumped in with dispensationalism, it sounds like. Um, pretty prominent voice. Tragically, I could not, I don't know how to say it other than I could not disagree more.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> Um, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to ask a controversial question, okay? But, but it is, uh, I think it's good. How do I ask this? Okay, so establishment of Israel, 1948, uh, there's this miraculous wars they keep winning and keep winning and keep winning, and it's like, man, how is this small nation defeating all these other, you know, Arab nations? And it, it sure does seem like there is prophecy being fulfilled, uh, throughout the last 80 years with Israel. But then I think one can argue or or you could see how some people can take that and and go to an unhealthy extreme.

>> Of course.

>> With the eschatology lumped in, okay? So one of the things that isn't often talked about, but was brought to light by a Calvary Chapel pastor is Chuck Smith's views in the '80s around not date setting, but definitely, "Hey, within this year, within this decade, the the Messiah is going to return based on some of this dispensationalist framework with regards to, um, you know, the establishment of Israel as a nation." And so it's not often talked about in Calvary Chapel circles, but he did, again, he didn't set dates and he wouldn't call them prophecies, but there were some predictions made about years.

>> Yeah.

>> That Jesus was going to come. I want to say 1984 was one of them.

>> I'll do better than that for you. Yeah. He said it every year, and I'm going to tell you how. Okay. I was there. Mhm. Chuck Smith would say at the end or the beginning of every year, and we would always wait to hear what his next jingle would be.

>> Mhm.

>> Chuck would say something like this. "We could be in heaven in '77. It could be great in '78. The Lord could come back. If he does, it's going to be fine in '79." Chuck did that every year. And if you look at the genesis of the criticism, you will hear Chuck Smith say things like, "I wouldn't doubt if the Lord comes back soon." Heck, I say that. But I've never heard Chuck Smith say, "June 9th is the day." So, yeah, if you want to look, if you want to say, "He said he alluded, he alluded that the Lord could come back, uh, in, in, you know, '72 by what he said." Uh, if you want to take it that way, okay, but he didn't tell you a day or the hour. Chuck Smith believed in what has been the traditional view taken out of 1 Thessalonians 4 among other scriptures, and that is, uh, what a pre-millennial, pre-tribulational, futurist, literalist, see if I'm missing something, believes. And that is from scripture, there's the understanding of the doctrine of imminency. And nobody taught that more clearly than Dr. John Walvoord, now gone, but he was a, probably the greatest living eschatola-, eschatolo-, es- catol-, catol- logical theologian on end-time prophecy. That said, there are those who will say, for example, uh, in the, those that are in the a-millennial camp, "There is no doctrine of imminency. That's false doctrine." I hear it all the time. So you don't believe Jesus could come back for the church at any time he so chooses? He could have come back, he could come back next week, 10 years, 100 years from now, or he could have come back last month.

>> Nope.

>> Okay. Well, I disagree. So people get very passionate about that. Look, I'm ready to live and die of old age. But I'm also ready to meet Jesus. Yeah, I think the imminence burns off, by the way. I, I mean, I know a lot of pastors, and I'm, I'm boasting in the Lord, okay? If you knew my schedule, I'd invite you to know it. If you see how little I sleep and what I do, you can ask me any question you want. I am living at full throttle to try to obey Jesus in everything because he could come back today, but I'm ready to die of old age. Does that make sense? I think it's harder to live that way, but I'm also eager at the same time.

Let me just clarify what he actually did say and what he did not say. Okay, so it was the teaching of the fig tree in Mark 13:28-30, and the, and Mike Winger did a video about this, like a really in-depth video about this, meaning the generation that saw Israel become a nation in 1948 would witness Jesus' return. So it sounded like it was a kind of a misinterpretation of Mark 13:28. Mark, Mike goes into that, and so he, in 1989, Smith admitted he was guilty of coming close to date to date setting. He was guilty of, this is his quote, of date setting, acknowledging that this was wrong according to the American Vision, but he never did set a date. He was guilty of coming close to date setting. Even if you did not read he said that he was guilty, I would say to you that would have been wrong for him to say. The, the prophecy, I mean, the Mark passage in applying that to, Oh no, I'm no, I mean, the, the blossoming of the fig tree is a reason why it's in the Bible. There's a reason why Jesus said it. But Winger, who I love, he just spoke at our church, by the way, last week. Love that guy. He, Winger, I assume, 'cause he's so thorough, he would have pointed out also that the word generation is translated in various, that one word is translated with various meanings. Be that as it may, here we are, what, how you said it earlier, 80 years, almost 80 years? Yeah, well, 1948 is when Israel was founded again. What is that? It's a lot of years. Like, like 77 years, 76 years. That said, um, yeah, I, if I'm glad Chuck Smith said, "I came really close to making a boo-boo there," because I would have said that's, that's, that's getting too close. That's a boo-boo. It's good, it's good that no one has, no one, as far as I know, no one in the Calvary Chapel has came close to doing that. Yeah, which I think is good.

No, this is good. Okay, so this is my view of eschatology. Tell me what you think of it. Luke 19, Jesus in the KJV is talking about the 10 bags of gold. It's similar to the parable of the talents, and he uses this phrase in the KJV that I like, "Occupy till I come." And in Matthew 25, right after all the spooky stuff in Matthew 24, we see the imminency of Christ preached in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, which then goes into the parable of the talents, and then goes into caring for the least of these in the last days, and shepherd separating the sheep from the goats. So my view of eschatology is, I don't take a strong stance on any of it. I, I, I just try to see what the scriptures say and go with that. But I do think we need to live as if Jesus can come back at any minute by making the most of our time, talent, and treasure. Uh, two, first care for our own family, but then also do good onto others, especially those within the house of faith. And so I think therein lies the, the biblical framework, regardless on if you're a-millennial, pre-millennial, post-millennial. I'm a pan-millennial. I think it'll all work out somehow, but I live as if Jesus can come back at any moment in time, but I'm also thinking about my grandkids, and I'm also thinking about their grandkids. I'm, I'm, I'm occupying till I come. I did a whole devotional on it right here. So I'm pre-millennial, pre-tribulational. But I have set up, I, I have set up retirement funds. They hope they don't watch this. I've set up retirement funds for my children and grandchildren. Yeah. Why did, why did I do that? I had no biblical upbringing. You know what? I was reading through the book of Proverbs many years ago, and it said that I should provide for my family instead of my family providing for me in my old age. That switch came on. But I am, I am so in love with the doctrine of imminency, but I have a retirement plan for my kids. Yeah.

Well, I think, see, this is a healthy view of eschatology, right? Because what's happened, and I don't know how much you probably don't keep up with like TikTok theology, but there was a whole, there was a whole thing just in September of multiple folks who set dates. They're not established or connected to any churches, but they set multiple dates and pushed the dates back and pushed the dates back and then pushed the dates back. And folks are selling houses, they're selling cars, they're giving away stuff. One, one lady gave away, one lady called CPS on herself so that they would take her kids, right? And this stuff is, this stuff is happening. And so what you're describing, I think, is a biblical, healthy framework of how we navigate these conversations. Proverbs also says, you know, a righteous man leaves an inheritance for his grandchildren, right? Our fathers give houses and so I think there's a tension there of, man, Jesus can come back at any time. However, I'm still called to occupy. I'm still called to provide. I'm still called to leave an inheritance. And I think that's the, the part that is, is hard for younger believers because they're all or nothing in their thinking.

It's not just the younger. I'll give you a real-life story. So during Trump's first administration, I was called to Washington D.C. to be on Trump's advisory team. When I showed up and people were being introduced to others, this one guy, I forget what he said, it doesn't matter. He said, "What are you doing here?" I said, "That's a great question. I got called to be here. I don't even know what I'm doing here." And he said, "No, no, no, no. What are you doing here? You're a Calvary Chapel guy, right?" I go, "Yeah." "Don't you believe Jesus could come back at any time?" Yeah. "Well, then what are you doing here?" And I said, "Man, dude, I'm not tracking." He said, "If you believe that Jesus could come back any time, why don't you just go back to California and surf and just wait it out?" And I said, "Man, 'cause I've got grandkids." Yeah. I said, "Dude, I'm here to fight. I don't know when he's coming back. But when the president asks you to come and give advice on spiritual matters, I mean, I'm just following Old Testament, man. If Uzziah opens up the door."

And asks Isaiah to come in and talk to him. "I'm going."

"Well, I just didn't think you Calvary guys would even care about the future 'cuz you think you're going to be out of here."

I said, "Man, I don't know what Calvary people you know, but if they're like that, they're crazy because we've got to be ready to meet him. Look, here's what's fun about this. So yeah, but what if Jesus doesn't come back today? Hey, he doesn't come back today, but what if you drop dead today? Are you ready to meet him? How about if we lived every day like we're going to drop dead and it's our last chance to invest in the kingdom?"

"I love that. Um, you brought up Trump. Uh, perfect segue. Christian nationalism. Yeah. Uh, there's a lot of conversation, a lot of hoopla around Christian nationalism. Um, a gentleman from your church, Mike Russo. I don't know if you know who Mike Russo is. He's a great uh uh upcoming creator on YouTube."

"Gosh, no. Mike, come and say hi to me, will you?"

"Yeah. Uh, he did a video on um how he thinks Christian nationalism, or the term Christian nationalism, is a psyop because there's so many versions of it. And depending on who you talk to, Christian nationalism could mean, 'Hey, we think we think we should outlaw abortion and that's bad and we should not kill babies.' All the way to a uh a Doug um oh gosh, what is his name? Doug Doug He He pastors a church in Moscow. Um, postmillennial. Oh god, I got to know his name."

">> I don't know. Moscow, Idaho or Russia?"

">> Moscow, Idaho. Give me 1 sec. Doug Is it Doug Reid? Doug Um, pastors church Moscow. Gosh, I can't believe I'm drawing a blank. Sorry. Um, in Moscow. Doug Doug Wilson. We'll We'll clip that out. Doug Wilson, uh, who also close to what people are calling Christian nationalism. And in his version of, hey, we, you know, uh, women shouldn't vote. This is kind of one of the things that gets back to it. Women shouldn't vote. Uh, it should be one vote per household. Some people go, 'Wait a minute. I I want I want to legislate Christian values and I want to legislate Christian Christian morality, but it's kind of like, uh, don't let women vote. That's kind of weird, you know?' And And other than that, I really like a lot of Doug Wilson's stuff on Christian nationalism. And then I'm hearing there's folks that want a a Christian prince to rise up and to overthrow the government. You know, it's just like there's like four different versions of Christian nationalism that I'm hearing about."

">> Educating me 'cause I've never heard that before."

"Yeah, oh, there's all kinds of weird stuff that that gets back to it. Yeah. So, Doug Wilson, I mean, again, I like Doug Wilson. Um, he's a postmillennial, so he's a he's a he's a he's going to take a preterist view of most of the eschatological stuff >> in Matthew 24 and Revelation. Um, but his approach to Christian nationalism, I'm like, 'Oh, that's fine. I don't know about the women not voting, but I I like everything else you're talking about, you know?'"

"Um And so Are there any women in his church?"

"Oh, I'm sure there's women in his church. Who don't vote. I don't know if they don't vote. That's a good question. So So again, what is your take on Christian nationalism? 'Cause I think it's one of these weird like boogeyman terms that's kind of just used to like"

">> You're Christian nationalist. You're Christian fascist."

">> Yeah, with you teaching me right now that I'm going to have to say, 'Yeah, it's got to be a boogeyman thing because I mean this is how I take it. Um, in fact, I'm the guy that said this and and it's been it's kind of gotten well known. I said at one of those Trump rallies that don't expect uh, the Messiah to arrive on Air Force One.' And so that took that got traction. I also said, 'Don't look for the answer in the statehouse or in the White House. The answer's in God's house.'"

">> Come on."

"Okay. I believe that with all my heart. So that said, what do we know about our unique American experience? You and I happen to be sitting in America right now. If we were in Germany doing this, if we were native grown Germans, we'd have a different story. But we live in a constitutional republic that has been given to us, I believe, by God. I think Franklin and all those dudes, they were moved by the hand of God. We have this experiment. What does that mean? That means God, who in my opinion didn't mention a a word about America in the Bible. I don't see I know people are going to write you on this. I don't believe America's in the Bible. Period. You don't see its formation, you don't see its end. It's not even there. But what happened? The most evangelistic nation on earth, the most powerful, the most wealthy, the most, uh, beneficial for the for gospel if church, you name it, all this stuff. Okay, whatever. Why is it not in the Bible? I don't know, that's God's business. That said um and no one can doubt my patriotism. I My friends say, 'Jackie, you were born 250 years too late.' I read everything I can on Jefferson, Adams, both Adams, Hancock, I read it all. Mayhew, I read them all. I love that stuff. That said, none of them none of them ever spoke about establishing God's kingdom on earth. None of them. Um that said is I think you're saying to me that there are people who believe that the church is going to generate some sort of a like what? A pastor's council that's going to take the place of the government in Amer- America's going to be a Christian nation?"

"Yeah, I don't want to speak on behalf of them. I don't want to speak on behalf of them, but uh, again, Doug Wilson did a great interview with the Young Turks. He went into pretty leftist territory. And uh, the way he explains it, I go, 'Hm, I get behind that. I'm not mad at it.'"

"You don't You don't think it can happen at all?"

"I don't think I don't do I think it can't happen. Uh, anybody who thinks it can happen is probably in the replacement theology camp. I I think he would I don't know if he would use that language, but they would probably say they would use that."

">> Either that or they're flirting with it."

">> Yeah. Covenant theology for real."

">> So so you're thinking America is so great that that's what's going to happen?"

"Uh, they might say I'm trying to I'm trying to get in their head right now instantly, so help me out be merciful. But I'm thinking maybe you got William Bradford and you've got our pilgrim fathers who said things like, 'Hey, we'll be the city on a hill. Look at this great American thing.'"

"Um Okay, if that is is that what you're thinking? I think you took their thoughts a little too far. They didn't write that. But my goodness a Christian nationalist I'm a Christian. Um and I've been asked by the Republican Party to run for office. But two things kept me from doing it. Number one, God's called me to be a pastor. Number two, the Republicans are all screwed up. Why would I do that? I can impact more people on a Sunday. I reach 100,000 people on a Sunday. Why would I be Why would I run for Congress?"

">> Yeah. You say, 'Oh, so you don't believe in getting involved?'"

"I didn't say that. John Jay, the first Supreme Court Justice of the United States, John Jay said we prefer Christians to run for office. That's what our founding fathers That John Adams famously said our nation, our constitution has been developed and given to govern this country, right? He said it only works for a moral and a religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other. That said um I do not believe that if that's Christian nationalism I'm not that. But if you're going to label me a Christian nationalist 'cause I have an American flag on the front of my house I will tell you I didn't have one on there until I went to Home Depot on September 11th, 2001 on that Tuesday and I went and bought an American flag and put it on my house. It's been there ever since. Okay? Am I Would I fight to defend this constitution and your children's ability to grow up free? I'd give my life for that. Oh, you're nationalist. You know what? If you want to be some thing, go think whatever you think. But I believe that if you live in Canada you should love Canada enough to pray for it. Jeremiah 29:7 says that wherever you are cap- in captivity Pray for Pray for the peace and prosperity of the city which I've called you in. Yeah. Boom. Shouldn't the Germans be nationalistic about Germany? How about the Italians? Yeah. I wish the French would. We should be We should take care of our country. Amen. No, I'm with you. Man, worship my country? I don't worship my country. Okay, so this brings me to We kind of ended here on this last question. So this is something that I've wrestled with. You know, I um I was not a big Trump guy, uh, throughout the his whole rise. I have to agree. But in 2024 I um I'm seeing with with the left is running, I'm seeing you know, you you know the stuff that's happening in California. We got gay civic study being gay civic studies being mandated to elementary school 'cause that's that's what happened in Glendale. That's why the Armenians almost rioted in Glendale. >> God. Um, mandatory. They could not opt out of it. When I was a kid, the Christian parents I I didn't grow up Christian, but the Christian parents They could opt They could opt out. They could opt out of sex ed. >> That's right. >> Now, they were trying to press, you know, gay civic studies, uh, on elementary school kids. You got you know, men can become women. Men can use women's spaces. Men can compete in women's sports. I think that's abuse, man. You got abortion not just What is it? Legal, safe, and rare. Uh, abortion is now reproductive rights. Does an abortion clinic It's health care. It's It's It's It's outside of the DNC. And so for the first time, uh, as a guy that's more or less been a centrist, uh, I found myself pushed to the right. And And I And I But I did feel very conflicted with Trump. And I'll tell you why. Um, outside of the rhetoric and and him knowing how to get attention, um, man, this is a dude that's been divorced multiple times. Right. This is a dude that clearly doesn't understand salvation, doesn't understand the grace of God, doesn't understand what gets you into heaven. Um, this is a dude that's had quite a lot of sexual allegations against him. Now, I'm not saying those are all true. But this There's a lot. You know, where there's smoke, there's usually a fire, but maybe he maybe he's a great guy and just has a bullseye on his back. I don't know. And it And it was hard for me, um it's hard for me to vote for him. Um, and I remember the day of the election. I had just gotten back from a speaking thing. My My son was talking. We were having this conversation in Panera and and and I said And he asked He was asking He's He's 10. So he's asking me about He's 9 at the time. He's asking me about the election. And I go, 'You know, son, there's um there's a guy running, Trump who I agree with on his policies, but he has he has a questionable character. Um, but I agree with him more than I disagree with him on. And then there's a lady running who seems to have a a good character. She's married and as far as I know, she seems to be upright, uh, generally speaking. But I disagree with her on almost everything. Everything's up to bottom. There you go. And it was at that moment when I said that to my to my 10-year-old I went in and I and I voted for Trump. But begrudgingly, I voted for Trump. Um and I didn't endorse him during the campaign, but I definitely railed against Harris. Cuz cuz we're in California. I remember her I remember the the We know her. And and by the way, folks, we know Gavin Newsom >> That's right. That's right. That's right. And so, how do you navigate that as a as a as a follower of Jesus? You you you pray for him. You've been around him. >> I spoken with him privately. I spoke I spoke with him the day after he was shot. Yeah. Yeah. And it does and it definitely seems like the Lord preserved him. Come on. I have no doubt about that stuff. I mean, come on. What are you going to say? That's luck? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's not luck. Full-on conspiracy. >> I don't believe in that stuff because of this one biblical reason. There's no word in Hebrew in the Bible for the word coincidence. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. I don't believe in luck. That said, >> Yeah. Yeah, so how do you how do you how do you wrestle with this? How do you reconcile with this?"

">> Do the same thing you did. And basically, it's this. Um I would hope that the flock at Chino Hills that I'm their pastor would they know that I love them and I will throw myself under the bus to tell them the truth. Okay? I would never expect Trump to do that 'cause he's not a pastor. I'm not voting for a pastor. I want a guy with with the best policies possible. Right? Well, this moral thing and that moral thing and this thing and his hair and his comment to Rosie O'Donnell I don't like any of it either. But God sets up kings, he takes down kings. God gave us a choice between two people. I think I'm going to be responsible for picking one of these people. Would you expect Listen this. Do you expect me to pick the lesser of the two evils? Uh yes. Of course I do. Well, how do I know which one? And you nailed it. Thank God, you nailed it. Policies. Yeah. Yeah. Policies. Let me let me let me ask you about this. And this is something that I'm post-Trump, you know, we're seeing uh I think what the Biden administration did with the border was a complete train wreck. Catch and release in America versus catch and release in Mexico. >> Yeah. Really bad. I think the fruit of that. Yeah, really really bad policy. I think the overcorrection to that uh I think Trump locked locked down the borders. I think that was great. But some of the overcorrections that may seem like And again, I don't know how much of this is verified is the Hey, there's a difference between like I think everybody's like, 'Get the criminals out.' Like get the criminals out. If you if you got a criminal record, you're a bad guy, you should go. Got you. But when you're you're hearing reports, and again, I don't know how much of this is verified, of like, 'Hey, this abuela has been here for 20 years. These folks have been here for 30 years. They don't have a criminal record.' And it seems like some of those folks are getting caught up uh in it. I understand that every immigrant took a risk to come here if they came here legally. I get that. Um but it seems like some of that kind of misses the mark on the on the Old Testament verses with regarding to welcoming in the foreigner and the exiled. Especially folks that that that have assimilated, that have done their their part to assimilate. >> How do you how do you wrestle with that?"

">> First of all say, just just moving forward for you, those Old Testament verses about the foreigner coming in, they those were converts to Judaism. >> Yeah, of course. They became Jews. >> Yeah. Yes, of course. >> That's important. >> No, absolutely. I'm with you. Okay, that said, um so, I'm not at liberty to say right now some things that are being done which are really good. Why why uh Gnome is not saying these things or Homan, I don't know why. But there's there's good things off to the side now. I can't I I don't want to get into that. I wish I could. Maybe later, I'll let you know. We we can't >> can tell me off the record. Okay. All right. So, a an address is given. There's a guy here who is a pedophile. Illegal. He's in this home. Inside that home are seven illegals that are working, paying taxes. In fact, one of them went into the Marine Corps. They're good people. Undocumented, illegal. So, what happens? This is this is what happens. And you know what? I mean, if you're if you're game, um I could set up where you and I could get in you and I could go on on a on a raid. This is what happens. You got a bad guy sitting in the middle of a bunch of good people. How you going to get the bad guy? They rush in, they drop the net. Imagine we're off the coast here, you throw your net out in the water, you pull it in. And then you get this one over here and this one over here and this one over here and then the here he is. This guy goes away, they all go back home. You and I are being flirted with the thought how sad. They all got deported. It's not happening. You're saying that's not the official policy. >> No. Okay. But I I will file a grievance on your on your podcast. I do not know and I I've been told you never want to play ever do you ever want to play poker with Trump. You're going to lose. Why doesn't he let people see what's going on? 'Cause it's great. Instead, all the bad news. All these people got rounded up. Well, they had to round up them all to get that one guy and they let the others loose. Why doesn't he let that out? Here's my psychology to it. I'm probably wrong. Maybe not. I think Trump being a man of the world and being a you don't mess with him, you know? He's going to come back and get you. I think he'll risk off the record doing the right thing without cameras being seen on it so that the illegal community community is petrified because that one guy that they're trying to get, um they want that bad guy so bad that they're okay with the rest of the group feeling uncomfortable until it happens to them and then they realize, 'Wow, it is true. He only wanted that bad guy.' Why why don't they market that? I think he has a strategy. I just don't know what it is. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I I hope I hope you're right. That's great. I I That sounds very sensible. >> different. Yeah. All right, Pastor Jack, any any final words before we get out of here? This is great. I got to have you back sometime, I believe in deeper. >> I honestly We've gone almost hour and 45, so Listen, I loved being with you. It's incredible. I'm so I'm so delighted with your success. Well, thank you. >> And that you're grounded. I'm doing my best. Doing my best. All right, guys, we're going to get out of here. Follow Pastor Jack Hibbs. Check him out. A lot of great stuff. And if you're anywhere near Chino Hills, we always are trying to get you guys in churches. Please check out his church. All right? We'll see you guys later. Peace."