Transcription
My guest on this podcast is Mark Lloyd. Someone has been in the property business for more than 20 years. Primarily now focusing on making six-figure profits in six months using the strategy that he's using right now. Not only do we unpack this strategy and how he's doing that, but we talk about the many, many different strategies he's been involved with over the years and in his first year doing 20 deals. So, let's jump straight into the podcast.
Mark, the strategy you're focusing on now, making six-figure profits in six months and turning in and out of those deals, is a really interesting one. What I want to do, I want to unpack that in a short while. But if we go back a little bit in terms of you've been involved in property more than 20 years, a lot of different experience, a lot of different strategies that you've, uh, that you've done. What got you interested in property? How did that journey start?
I can't remember the year, but, um, so I was running a telecommunications company at the time with my business partner Jackie, and we heard about property. I mean, obviously, we, we, we both owned our own property, but never really thought that we could actually do anything in the BTL space, 'cause it's the only thing we'd heard of. And we started subscribing to a magazine by Peter Jones called Property Auction News, and I, I think we just spotted that somewhere and thought, "Oh, piqued our interest." And started talking about buying properties at auction. I don't know how we're going to do that. Um, and he started talking about things like below market value deals, and I thought, "What's, what's that?" And then the sort of percentages he was talking about. That's ridiculous. How nobody in their right mind would agree to a 25 to 30% discount on the property. So we, we kind of bought a couple of properties primarily from sources that probably got us a director's database, I guess, somewhere, and they were quite active in their marketing. Um, and we had a couple of basic BTLs in the north of the country. We, by the way, we were living in Surrey at the time, so, but a lot of southerners buy cheap northern properties. Um, and it was okay. I mean, they were producing a couple hundred quid a month each, not nothing to, to set the world alight, but we couldn't see how we could do much more, really. Um, and it was only when it came to selling the company, or the prospect of selling the company came around, that there was something happened that kind of turned us more towards property. And when we looked at selling, well, we actually weren't looking to sell the company, or Jackie was, I wasn't. So, so, um, we got someone in to value the company. We were quite surprised by, by the valuation that was given and just decided over a weekend that, yeah, that's right, we're going to do that. And as the sale was going through, I, I received a letter through the post from Rich Dad Education, and I'd already read Rich Dad Poor Dad.
Yeah. I took it. Robert Kiyosaki tapes, as we used to have.
Yeah. Cassettes back in cassette tapes. Yeah.
Um, and I thought, well, I saw the jackets. Why don't we, why don't we go along to this and, and see what it's about? And, um, it was in London, Gloucester Road Hotel. I remember it vividly. It was probably 150 people in the room at that point. An American guy at the front, and I love Americans, don't get me wrong, but when I hear an American selling, and you, you know exactly what they're going to be doing. So I kind of, I was listening but being put off a little bit. And then the more he talked, the more sense a lot of things started to make. I thought, "Okay, I didn't know about that. Didn't know about it." He talked very briefly about lease options. What on earth's that?
You know, this house for a pound business. Yeah. That's, okay. Got to find out more. So, after about 30 minutes, we stood up. I said, "Jack, let's just, let's just go. Let's do it now. They're going to be selling something. Let's go and find out what it is." And then, uh, we went to the back of the room without being asked.
Yeah. And signed up for a 3-day course. Right. With Tigrant, which is the Rich Dad education brand in the UK at the time.
Yes. And went along to the, the 3-day event. Um, uh, and it kind of opened our eyes to, to the different things, you know, the below market value stuff, the, the deal sourcing, lease options, and a few other things as well. And those were the three that really piqued my interest. Um, and, yeah, we were asked to kind of give an indication of what number of properties we were going to like to buy over the next year. And,
What's the goal? What's the ambition for the year? What, what, I can understand that they want to get you motivated. They want to get you, you hooked into to what they're trying to sell. Um, and as I mentioned earlier, I, I wrote down 200 properties. I thought with my background in sales, I thought, "Yeah, that's, that's a breeze. 200 sales. I view it as 200 sales." Jackie wrote down 20.
Okay. Which is nearer to what we actually did achieve. Because the market had changed from my initial assumptions when, um, uh, when there was same-day refinancing on mortgages, which, you know, could to be done, sort of late, um, 2008, roughly. By the time we'd started that, that was no longer the case.
So we, we couldn't actually do that. But, but that's how we kind of initially started. So that strategy, just to unpack it for somebody that may not be familiar with what you're talking about, at that time, you'd find a discounted property, effectively borrow the money on a bridge to buy it in the morning, and in the afternoon, you'd re-mortgage it effectively and get all the money back out, repay the bridge, and end up with a house for free. That was the strategy many, many people were doing at the time.
Correct. And that was just coming to an end because of various changes in the market as you, as you got going.
Yeah. Yeah. And so I could see that we didn't need much money. And we could get these houses. I could, I could see that. And so, um, we, they did their usual pitch at the end of the, the three days for their mentorship program. And, and when I mentioned the figure, and a lot of people were astounded by the amount we paid. We paid £45,000 that we didn't have at that point. Um, because we, we hadn't, the company was selling, but it hadn't sold through. But we had the first tranche of money coming through, and we knew it was coming, but we hadn't, didn't have a timeframe at the time. And so we paid for that on nine credit cards.
Wow. Um, but I'm just going to let that sink in for some people for a moment, because that's a very scary thought as well for many people. And, uh, clearly there was some, um, appetite for some risk, and there's some confidence in what you, uh, uh, uh, in your ability to, I'm going to make this work, uh, as well. You're expecting some money. Sometimes, um, when people talk about, uh, uh, mentoring can be quite expensive. I mean, you and I both do mentoring. I've done training in the past as well, as a, as a trainer. Very knowledgeable person. What would you say to somebody who, who is shocked by that's a lot of money to pay to learn how to do something?
Well, you're either committed or you're not. Mhm. And, I think if it was £5,000, would we have been as committed? I think with the mindset, we probably would have been. Yeah. At 45, you are definitely committed.
Yeah. And, yeah, I agree with you. I mean, some people that moan about mentorship fees, they're high, and what, what do you learn? I, I always say mentorship is, is not a learning as such. You will learn. It's about doing. It's about getting results. It's about, you know, what do you want? Right. Let's go and do it. It's not sitting in a classroom or reading some books or watching some videos. Yes, you can do that. But the main purpose of mentorship, in my view, is, it's, it's, it's about getting results. The implementation.
Implementation, which is where most people fall down.
Yes. Um, and, you know, we had mentors. Um, and in fact, even to this day, I still have a mentor. Um, different type. But, you know, when we started, it was, yeah, right, let's get going. Let's get cracking. And I wanted to see that 45 grand back because we had it on credit cards, so we had to repay it. For anything, yes, we had money come through from the company. Um, but of course, when we sold the company, we took away our income source.
Yeah. So, we had to create an income from scratch, virtually from day one. Which, I wouldn't recommend to anybody, by the way. But, you know, but for the mentorship, I, I would just view it as a, if you're going to start a business, invest in that business and treat it as a business expense. And if you're not sure, don't do it.
Yeah. So, you jumped, you both jumped into the deep end. You aim for 200 properties. Jackie aimed for 20 in the first year.
Yeah. What was the, uh, what was the plan then, or plan of action?
Um, the plan was, we literally followed what we'd been taught and what our mentor was saying, you know, so we, we started off with BTLs, pretty basic stuff. And the whole idea was to get loads of BTLs, you know, um, pretty relatively hands-off type of product. Um, I still call them products now. Um, and, um, and just get lots of them producing, you know, a little bit each month. And we were told to go north because property was cheaper, you could recycle them that much quicker, any money recycling and so on. Um, and so first year, we got, I think it was 19 properties in the first 12 months, all BTLs. We hadn't gone into HMOs at the time. Uh, didn't really appeal. Um, I've got to be frank. Um, and we did come across a few other strategies, but because obviously, as you know, buying a property takes time, you know, three to six months, you might just get one over the line. But we, once we got the ball rolling, they started then, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. So our last six months is when those 19 cases came. The first six months was, was there, just, yeah, they weren't all necessarily all equally spread out throughout the year. It's as you started doing the work, as it started figuring it out, then started building momentum, then it started happening fairly quickly.
Yeah. And it was just putting offers out there. It was going through properties. If I view a property, I put an offer in. I thought, otherwise, why am I viewing the property?
Yeah. So, and then it just suddenly, like, acceptance, acceptance, acceptance, acceptance, and you think, "Oh, sugar, accept." Yes. And, um, and so, okay, but we, we had no income. So we, we got, had some money come through from the company from the sale, the first tranche, and the second tranche was another six, nine months later, better. Um, so, and, and what most people don't appreciate is, yes, by having an upside of money is, is great. But you haven't, it's not producing an income as such. You've forgone your income for that capital amount.
The Impact Network is a monthly event that we hold at our Birmingham office. A brilliant event, mind-blowing. The idea being to help accelerated growth for property and business entrepreneurs. We get like-minded people together to learn and network from each other, and also some fantastic speakers, like, for example, we've had sessions today on scaling and growing your business, having the right teams around you, how to create a passive house in terms of investment, and also using AI to create content. This is not AI. This is a real me. And I look forward to seeing you at the next event.
And so all I was watching each month is Jackie and I were drawing money, and the money was just going down. There was, there was no nothing coming in to replace it.
Yeah. And so whilst that's useful to have that money to invest in property, the money that was coming back was tiny. We, we couldn't live on that. Um, so I started deal sourcing, probably by about month three.
Yes. Um, I thought, right, I can do this.
Yeah. 'Cause you're out looking and finding properties anyway.
Yes. And we, we, and I think about that scenario I mentioned where we had, like, we had six acceptances at once.
Mhm. Um, I thought, okay, even I could, even I realized that was going to be too many to try and deal with at once.
Yeah. So we did, I think we kept four for ourselves and sold two.
Okay. And, um, I think the sourcing fee I charged initially was was a ridiculously small amount. I think it might have been about about £750.
Okay. Um, I, because I didn't know what sources were charging.
Yes. You know, if you ever want to do any more work like that, Mark, let me know. What I charge a lot more than if I did source a deal. Um, and then, uh, so that, I, I produced around about £80,000 worth of income in, in by the end of my, our first year in property, just from.
You essentially doubled your investment in the training, the mentoring, just by the sourcing element alone, and then on top of that, built the, started building the portfolio as well.
Yeah. Exactly. So, yeah, so that was the kind of the first 12 months. And then in terms of, uh, over the years, you've done many, many different strategies, uh, and there's some that you enjoy doing, some you're not necessarily a big fan of. Tell me, what, what strategies do you really like? What type of property strategies, the ones that appeal to you the most, or have appealed to you over the years?
Over the years, I think things that have been relatively simple in my eyes. Um, anything that's got a, a creative element in terms of not necessarily creative structure, but putting the deal together, because I, I, I'm very much a deal-focused person. Having run businesses most of my life, it's about sales at the end of the day, and I see property buying as just the reverse.
Yeah. So, negotiating, so getting, getting a deal over the line, I suppose some of my favorites, apart from what I'm doing now, uh, would have been, um, definitely BMV.
BTLs. Lease options. Yeah.
I liked a lot. Did quite a lot of lease options that I liked the, the fact that you could actually sit down with somebody and say, "Right, okay, what are you looking for? Let's see how we can do it." Yeah. "Let's write this down." And you got a deal. I, I love that. Absolutely love that. Um, the 25, 30% discounts on, on, on, um, BTLs. I don't know if it's possible today, but it's definitely possible at the time. I know people still do it. Um, but I, I, my very first BTL deal was in the south of the country, not the north.
Okay. And I got 40% off. Well, okay. Which most people don't think you can do in the south.
But I didn't know any better. Yes. So I think it's down to your, your perceptions at the time. Um, so those are ones I guess over the years. Then obviously what I do now, which is primarily planning-oriented.
Yes. Um, and that's what I tend to stick to.
Yes. And the type of, uh, strategy like buy-to-let, and you said BMV, especially deep BMV is, uh, more difficult now than it was say at different times of the, uh, the property market. How do you see the property market panning out in the coming years? There's so much turmoil and change we see people going through, but then we have done so over the last 20 years as well.
Exactly. I think, um, what I see is a new entrant coming into the market. No, it's no different.
Mhm. And yet, are there opportunities? Yes, there most definitely are. M. Um, I personally don't do as much BTL as I did before. I've actually sold some of my, uh, BTL portfolio. Um, but that's because I wanted to concentrate on other things. And also, they were the strategy always was because they were in the north, to reduce them in the north. I'm based in the, the east of the country. So I wanted to reduce the, the northern ones and do more stuff locally. And I think a lot of people, when they're starting out, still being told to go north 'cause it's cheaper. But I say, why not look in your own backyard? There's a strategy that works in your own backyard. You just got to find out which one it is. That's all. And there, there will be multiple strategies that will work in your own backyard. And that's exactly what I did when I moved, um, from Surrey to Suffolk, where I live now. I just looked at what was there and I thought, okay, what's, what's going to work here? And it took me a while. I mean, it took me a year of research.
Yeah. Um, to work out what works in that area. And it, it was actually some of the stuff I'd already done in Surrey. So started replicating in, in Suffolk. And when it comes to strategies, as you said, often the, the thing is people go looking for the lowest price properties. And as the further north you go, the, the cheaper those properties become. And what do you think is it that prevents people really looking on their doorstep and saying, "What can I do here?" Why do you think the mindset is generally, we just need to find where the values are lower, and that's where we need to go?
Personally, what I did when I started in Birmingham, guess well, Birmingham's steep. I'll go to Stoke-on-Trent. That's where I stopped. It's an hour's drive up the road. They'll be cheaper there. Quickly found out why they were cheap there. But, but that's where I started. Yeah. I, I think it's just money. It's funny. It's a money mindset. I think, you know, a million quid is only one more zero than 100 grand, really, at the end of the day.
Yeah. And it's, it's the comfort factor. People get uncomfortable with large amounts of money. I, I have to admit, I did initially. Yeah. You know, when I bought, we bought our first house, it was empty. It was being refurbished, and I'm just seeing a mortgage going out. So there's no income coming through. And not only did we have no income coming through, we've got now less 'cause we're paying out the money. Um, but as I got a bit more experienced, then we started doing larger figures. Um, and, you know, we're currently buying a million-pound house, for example, at the moment. Um, would I have thought about doing that 20 odd years ago? Probably not. When I started, but now I would say to people, look, you know, look in your own backyard. See what there is. There's a way of getting the money because I can, you know, impart that experience. This is how I get the money. I'll show you how to do it.
Yes. Um, and I think they get a little bit concerned about the larger numbers and their commitment exposure, and I get all that. But that just comes with confidence and experience. And experience breeds confidence. So to gain that experience, you got to do it.
Yes. And if you know your area, which you will know your area far better than anything 300 miles away, then why not do it?
Yes. And as you, um, as you start exploring, uh, strategies, it says you build the, uh, build the comfort in terms of doing that. But the amount of work that needs to go in often is not that different from one that has another zero on the end to one that doesn't. The amount of effort and energy putting in may be very similar anyway.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you, you know, if you're going to say, flip a £100,000 property and make 25, 30 grand, why not do a half a million property and make 100 grand?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is the same effort essentially.
Yes. Um, that goes in, potentially around about the same timeframe from buying through to flipping it on. And I'd argue that actually flipping on a £500,000 property is much easier than flipping on £100,000 property.
Yes. And in terms of someone, uh, for example, they have a full-time job, they're looking to transition into property. What do you think is the, the, the proper route that they should be thinking about to move from a full-time job to a property? As you said, you'd kind of jump straight in. Probably not the, uh, the ideal way to go. What's, what's the path do you think people should follow?
Well, I think they need to establish what it is they're trying to get to first of all. So, you know, what do you, what's your expectations for the next 12 months to, to, to 60 months? So I always try and get them to do a five-year plan if they can. If they can't think that far ahead, then let's do the first 12 months, then we'll get something down. Because if they can get something down in writing for their own mind, they can start to see something, a little, a path as to how potentially it could be achieved.
Yeah. Um, I don't have any set plan for them. I, I, I'd ask them and I'll give them some guidance as to what. And if they're struggling, I'll say, "Right, have you thought about this strategy? Have you thought about this strategy? These are ways that you can achieve it."
Yes. And I was talking to a lady at the weekend, and um, she's doing HMOs in the north. And she lives in Richmond in Surrey. Right, okay. So your typical other London investor. And I said, "Why are you doing that?" They said, "What, what kind of income does it produce you over the year?" It's about £25,000. So I said, "Why haven't you thought about doing a flip in Richmond?" "You, I can't afford to do it." Money mindset. But if you did do a flip in Richmond, how much do you think you'd make? 100, 150,000. So you're getting £25,000 a year from an HMO up north. And I appreciate that's going to be potentially recurring. But that's one property in Richmond is five years' worth of income from an HMO up north. Made her think. Yeah. And we're going to have a chat now as well. Um, 'cause I said, "Well, look, let's, let's have another chat. If you want to investigate that, I'm more than happy to help you look at your area."
Yeah. And see what, see what's achievable. But if you know your area, you'll know those figures are achievable. They're definitely achievable in Richmond. So, with the deals, as long as you can demonstrate that there's a healthy profit here, it's safe, you've de-risked it for, for whoever might put in the money, it's actually not that difficult to find, find the money, whether it's institutional money, private money. Uh, your job is to find the opportunity, appraise it well, and demonstrate how you're going to be able to deliver it. And, and I guess that's the challenge that many people may be struggling their mind. Yeah. But how am I going to find the money?
Always. It always is. Um, and, you know, yourself. It gets easier the more experience you have because people get to know you. They know you're not, you know, you're quite active on social media, as I am. Um, and I think that helps. And one, that's one of the first things I encourage people to do is the marketing. They don't quite get it straight away because they haven't got any properties yet. But it doesn't matter.
Yes. You need to be seen. And the more you're seen, it has that social, um, impact that people say, "Actually, you viewed the property last week, and then you're viewing properties again." And even if you're just viewing them, you're taking some photos or doing a short video or saying, you know, "This is a property I'm looking at purchasing. What would you do with it? What do you think?" Just to get some engagement on social media. And I, I would say go across all platforms. Say, necessarily the one's necessarily better than the other, but, whatever your preference is, but I'd encourage to do all of them and get them to post regularly.
Yeah. And you'd be surprised. I mean, yeah, you know, people will comment, and potentially there's a, there's a someone there that will comment that's got money.
Yes. And sometimes people are just watching and observing you and not necessarily commenting and engaging in your content, but actually when they feel ready, they'll reach out to you. And when they do that, they're already ready to go at that point because they, they've decided they'd like to work with you.
Yeah. Well, I had one guy, um, reach out to me, um, and I, he somehow, it was on my database, but we'd never done anything together. And he just responded and said, "Mark, that sounds interesting. I've written out about, I was looking for investment."
Yeah. Um, he said, "Okay, I said, let's, let's schedule a call." And so we scheduled a call and he said, "Okay, well, let me just fill in the background." He says, "Don't need to. I've been following you for five years." Like, yes. And, and there are people like that will just watch and observe.
Yeah. It's interest. And personalities are different, and we should recognize that people do things in different ways as well. And when we connect, engaging with other people, and just recognize people are going to do things differently. So, we talk about lots of different strategies in being involved in over the years as well. And I'm guessing there's some strategies you're not a big fan of. What sort of strategies do you think are probably either not the right time, or just don't work, or it's going to be a bit contentious, maybe?
Um, I'm not a great fan of serviced accommodation. Um, I don't see it as a, um, as a business. It's no right. And don't get me wrong, I've done them. We had, we had a serviced accommodation business which we sold.
Yeah. But, um, it, there was too much work involved for the return.
Yes. Yes. On the face of it, you get high returns. You also got to put a lot of effort in.
Yeah. And, yes, you could potentially farm it out to a company to manage it for you if that's what you want to do. I personally wouldn't recommend that, but, um, it's, if it, if it works for you initially, fine. But I see so many people getting problems with serviced accommodation. They think they see the high numbers all the time, and it's, you know, a lot higher than, um, white, it's certainly higher than most HMO income, um, but of course, it's not as regular as HMO income or income. And they see, they just see the high figures and think, "Oh, that's, that's, that's going to be easy." It's made, it's made to sound easy on certain media.
Yes. Um, and so, yeah, I, I, I think the serviced accommodation market is a good one if you are going to run it as a totally separate business, and look at it from who you're marketing, who your market is. Most people do do serviced accommodation, buy somewhere, convert it to SA, and hey, someone's good, just going to rent it. They're going to rent it tonight, um, without any thought as to actual marketing plan. Yeah. Who am I aiming for? And there's some very good operators in the space, I'm sure you know yourself, and, and they've got, they've done a marketing plan. They know exactly who their customers are going to be, and that's what they focus on. They don't try and get all the sundry. Um, but, but that's a separate business. I don't, serviced accommodation is an interesting business. We do have a serviced accommodation business. I probably took three years of deliberating whether we should or shouldn't do a serviced accommodation, even though I understood the model quite well. And my thoughts always were, we're going into the hotel business, if that's what we do. That's really what we're doing. And we need to make a decision. Do we want to do that? Yeah. So when we did start, we, we focused heavily on as much automation as systemization, systemization as we could in the business, from completely keyless operations, um, to, uh, the, the, the guest journey. We spent probably eight or nine months on trying to understand that and get that right before we started, because our intention was, we want this business to work well and generate good income, but without draining our, uh, energy and resources into this business, alone. Because yes, you can have one or two units, and you can be running around chasing tail, and yes, you could probably make some good money doing that, but it's not, it's not a fun, a fun business, for sure.
Definitely not. And you're right, systemizing it. But oddly enough, so I was at the Polar at the weekend, and, um, you've near Cyril Thomas.
I don't. Okay. Oh, you need to meet Cyril.
Okay. All right. So, um, Oh, Cyril. U. Yeah. Rewards.
Yeah. Sorry. So, he's, I was thinking of sports people and he said, Park. He's got the Park Hotel.
Yes. And the electronics went down.
So, the keyless entry.
Okay. He had a phone, phone call, um, what time was it? I remember. I think it was 1:00 on, yeah, on, um, Friday afternoon, whilst we're into McKay things. So even then, on his horse. Hello. No, you, we're having a drink at the time. But, yeah, no, he was on the phone. So his electrician to get around there to try and sort out the keyless entry because it wasn't working.
Yes. Yeah. And, and you will get problems with things like that as well. But, uh, and, and I guess one of the things when we're looking at keyless systems initially was phones. Uh, but you just touch your phone and it will unlock. But my fear always was, if someone turns up late in the evening, 1:00, their battery's died, or something, uh, they've been out all day, and how are they going to get in? They still end up bringing you. So, uh, yeah, just think through system. Maybe I was a little bit over analytical on these things, but, yeah, I think there is a lot of, uh, that unfortunately in our business where people are drawn in by the big numbers and the headlines, and not necessarily understand what's involved in setting up that kind of business. I try to distinguish what's property and what's a business operating on a property, and then try and separate the two and say, "Okay, will these, how are these going to work, and who's going to run the business?" Social housing is another example. Can be a great business model. Lots of people doing it. And some people are, are delivering the care and support. Even say, "Are you really property investing, or you now in the business of care?" Yeah. They've just got themselves another job. And most people are trying to leave their job to do what we do. So why would you do it? Yeah. It doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah. So, you're focusing now on a great strategy, and, uh, one that I've only dabbled a little bit, not really done a huge amount myself in. Um, tell us a little bit more about, because the profits can be huge, and I know you've taken really a lot of time to understand this, to, to get it to work the way you have now.
Yeah. So, um, it's a very simple strategy. I mean, nothing, nothing necessarily complex about it, but it will turn a few people off because it's planning involved. Um, so all, all I look for are houses that are sitting on an overly large plot. Yes. So the garden is just too big. And can you think, "Oh, can I get one there?" Yeah. "I get one to the side. Can I want one, two, or three?" Yeah. Whichever. Um, and everything I do is on-market. I'm not in the off-market space. Um, it's on Rightmove. Anybody could have bought what I've bought.
They're openly on the market.
Totally openly on the market. Um, one of the last deals I did was originally on the market at £600,000. I picked it up for £400,000. Again, BMV doesn't work in the South, apparently. Yeah. Um, and I got, um, it was an old Victorian house, uh, five beds, large grounds, got planning for three more houses.
Okay. Um, and you'll easily make, I mean, that kind of one, you'd easily make more than six figures on. Um, but the timeframes, I think, is what frightens people. I think they, they hear about planning, uh, that takes a long time because they've all, they hear these things in the press. Yeah, "This one's been in planning for two years," or "12 months," or whatever. Admittedly, I mean, the very first deal I did was 12 months. It took me 12 months to get planning. But that was my learning deal. That was, I was learning with the architect I used at the time, and all these reports we had to keep getting one after the other, one after the other.
Yeah. Um, and I thought, right, okay, that's, that's a quite a long time frame. Is there a way we can make this work better? Just through talking to people. And eventually, I partnered up with a, a really good young guy, a planning consultant, business partner now, um, to look at how we could make things shorter. So, so all of our planning is done within three months.
We have nearest dam 100% success rate.
Wow. Why? Because we understand the system.
Yes. And, and I think with planning, the planning officer's job is not to say no. It's actually to, it is actually to encourage you. It is actually to say, "Well, yes, this does work, but you need to do this."
Yeah. So they're not really there to say no, no, no, all the way. Yes, you might get neighbors objecting. Well, who cares? So neighbors can object as long as they like, unless there's a valid planning reason, it carries no weight whatsoever. Um, you can unfortunately scupper a decision, but that just delays the decision to another time.
Yeah. That's all. You will get it. Yeah. As long as you're following the rules, and there is a, a national policy framework, you follow, you just follow the rules.
Yes. Yes. There is some opinion that comes in, but that's more around design. Um, so we kind of eliminate as much as we possibly can. Um, so we will get planning, outline planning, uh, which doesn't take long at all. Um, say, usually we get it inside eight weeks, worst case, let's say three months.
Mh. Um, and then we tend to flip on. Now, why we do that, reason I do that, is because I don't want to build. The highest risk in development is building. And go at the end. And depending on where you are in the country, that could take you six months, could take you nine months, 12 months, 18 months to sell. And you're, you're paying interest, you're losing your profit margins, you're winning all the time. Whereas I know that something with planning, there's a ready market for.
Mhm. Builders don't understand planning.
Yeah. So they will always buy something with planning. A lot of investors don't understand planning. They will buy something with planning.
Yeah. So that's my market. I know what my market is. So that's the, um, the uplift you're creating. Someone's paying for that. Someone's paying a premium for it because you've done that work. And, but they, for the benefit for them, is they've, they're ready to go. They don't have to then go through that full planning process where the bulk of the work is done. And they've got a little bit to do, and then they're ready to, um, ready to start building, constructing. And I guess some people in the, I would call the construction, uh, zone, that's the thing they do. They're less interested in the planning. They just want to get on and build. They just want a site where the numbers work, and they can just go on and build and sell and move on to the next one.
I was talking to a builder at the weekend, and exactly that. Is just they just want to get buy something they can put their guys on to virtually straight away.
Yeah. And if they've got teams, they've got to keep them working. They can't be sitting around between things. Yeah. They've got to just keep them in, keep them in work. And when you, uh, say outline planning, just, uh, explain what you mean. What the difference between that is and say, full planning, what, what's the, uh, difference when someone says it's outline planning?
The main difference is design. So with outline planning, there's no real design. You can submit an, um, an outline design of what you're proposing. Um, but the, so the one of the conditions will be subject to agreeing the design and materials.
Yeah. Even with full planning, it'll still be the materials to be agreed. Um, so with full planning, you have the design already. It's, that's, that's what's being agreed. So with outline, you're not agreeing that. What you're agreeing is the principle. Yes, you can build something. It'll be a house there. So mine, the three ones, it was two houses and a bungalow. That's what we kind of specified. We, we put, and we gave them a rough guide of where everything was going to be.
Mhm. Whoever buys that can change that. So that's one of the beauties of outline. Yeah. Is you know, if, if it doesn't work for them, they think they can actually make more out of it. Yeah. For example, they can get improve the planning, then they can change it. They can change the design quite easily. Um, full planning, slightly different, because you've already got the full plan. You're going to change everything again. Well, yeah. You're almost starting from scratch again. So with outline, you'll get the same kind of conditions you would get with full planning, apart from that additional one, which is really around the design. Everything else is very much the same as full planning.
Yes. So with this strategy, your focus is really looking at, uh, sites where there may be scope to build something else, and then understanding the processes around planning, the, uh, uh, the national planning frameworks, uh, to ensure, can it, is it going to comply? And I guess one of the interesting things I realized about planning some years ago was the vast majority of this country is not built on, about 90, 95% something like, when you look at a map, which is really mind-boggling when we talk about this constant shortage of accommodation and homes. And it is that there's not a shortage of land, it's the shortage of accommodation, and then the restrictions that come with what we can build, where we can build, and how we can build. And understanding that is really what you're, what you're focusing on.
And then, yeah, because essentially I'm getting planning on brownfield sites. You know, they've already got a building on them, or most of the ones I look at have already got a building on them. And, um, so we're, we're increasing supply within an existing brownfield site. And, and we don't try to complicate things. We're not going for 20, 30, 40, 50 houses. No, because that's a different market. The market we're in is simple. We aim to be simple. We aim to keep it simple for the planning authority so that it makes it less difficult for them to prolong the process.
Yeah. Um, and, yeah, we've got one recently mentioned to you earlier that we've got, um, where they've asked to extend.
Yeah. Now, they, they could, they could have refused. Yes. That the planning officer says, "More time." "Let's ask for more time." They could have said, "Actually, this is not going to be approved, so we're going to refuse." But they actually asked for more time, which I always consider to be a good sign.
Yeah. Um, and all they're waiting for in this one instance, actually, is the ecology report that the, their ecology officer to look at the report and comment on it. That's sad.
Yeah. So, because if you turn around and said no to more time, well, your response is probably going to be no to your panic as well. Because based on what they've got, the answer is no, then. But even then, that planning would have taken three months.
Yes. And so, what's your focus in the next few years then? Is this, is this what you're going to be concentrating on? Is there other things that you're looking up over the next two years, or are you kind of scaling up what you're doing, sticking to the same?
Um, yeah, so the, the, it's kind of in the development kind of space. I mean, development classifies only anything where I'm adding value. So, um, title splitting would be one.
Yeah. Um, but I don't tend to look at flats. A lot of people look at flats and title splitting. And there's a lot of people doing that. As you probably gathered, I don't tend to look at what everyone else is doing.
Yes. I try to look for the slightly different niche. Um, so in my area, uh, we have a lot of farms.
Yes. And farms have outbuildings.
Yeah. Now, if I can find a way to split the title, create titles for those outbuildings, and, and get them into residential, then that's what, that's what I'll do. And, uh, the, um, um, other investor I work with, Andrew, on, on that side of things, that's exactly what he does. The deal we, he did last year, which was down in Somerset, um, was actually a group of holiday cottages.
Okay. I think there was nine of them, right? They were all under one title.
Oh, wow. Okay. So these are nine cottages, not flats, all had one title. They each needed a refurb. They all had their own electricity supply, which is an added bonus. Otherwise, you would have had to put your supplies in, but that was an added bonus. They all had electricity supplies. Yeah. And it all, you know, they were former, um, cattle sheds.
Okay. Right. So we just literally had to create titles, put fences up.
Yeah. And bang. And that, that was an extremely profitable deal.
Yes. Nice. I think on the, uh, um, the best opportunities are in the niches in property rather than the surface-level stuff that many people pursue. As you said, when there's a lot of people pursuing similar strategies, it can be more difficult to make those work. When you go down two or three layers in terms of niching, um, that's, I think some of the best opportunities, uh, exist, and there are very few operators in that space as well.
Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Mark, I've really enjoyed catching up. It's been a while since we've, uh, had catch-ups. Thank you so much for that. If somebody wants to reach out to you, connect to you, what's the best way for them to do that?
So, you can search for me on social media. Uh, so, uh, Instagram would be Mark Lloyd Property, Facebook, Mark D, and I've got two profiles, Mark Lloyd 6 and Mark Lloyd 8, I think it is. Okay. LinkedIn, Mark Lloyd PNA, or just email me, mark@propertymasteracademy.co.uk.
Okay. We'll, uh, try and get all those on the screen, and we'll link them in the description as well, so people can find you quite easily. Cool. Once again, thank you so much. Nice catching up.
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