Transcription
We are going to be speaking to Donald Trump's former deputy press secretary, Sarah Matthews. This conversation was yesterday on my Substack live. You can get these live as they happen at substack.davidpacman.com. Very interesting conversation. Let's get right into it.
Welcome everybody. Today we're going to be speaking with Sarah Matthews who served as Donald Trump's deputy press secretary. Uh, if I have the dates right, Sarah, it's you started in 2020 and of course after shortly after the January 6th, 2021 fiasco, you left. Uh, so your tenure was about a year. Is that right?
Yeah. So, I had worked on his 2020 re-election campaign for about a year prior to that as a spokesperson, and then they moved me over to the White House to be deputy press secretary for about the last seven or eight months of the administration until you highlighted until I resigned on January 6th.
And you worked under Kaylee Mcani that entire time?
Yes. So, Kaylee Mcini was the press secretary while I was at the White House and I was one of the deputies underneath her.
So, I want to eventually, like the arc I'm thinking of is we'll eventually get to taking your knowledge of what it was like during the time you were there, applying it to what's happening right now, and getting your thoughts to the way that things tend to operate behind the scenes. But maybe before we get to that, when you were uh working in the Trump White House during this period of time, what was the sort of, you know, sometimes there's a culture of fear? Oh my goodness, the boss is furious. People are scared. People are scrambling to try to avoid getting caught in fire from whoever is going to point at them. Sometimes there's a culture of protecting the principle. So, for example, when in December of 2024, I went to the White House and was part of a group of creators that met with then President Joe Biden, the vibe to me was limit access, sort of restrict and keep this very neat and tidy and not allow it to get beyond a sort of controlled vibe, so to speak. So, the point of the question is, what was the environment like when you were there in terms of something just happened, what do we need to do? How do we need to react?
Yeah, I think the Trump West Wing was a really interesting place because it was a lot of big personalities while I was there and I think that that is still the same thing in the second administration and there was a lot of inner fighting going on and um knifing like people just constantly going behind each other's back going to the boss with things and trying to get him to do things the way that they wanted. And then obviously there was there's also a level of managing the principal and that kind of comes with working for any politician but to for Trump to the nth degree like trying to manage him and keep him happy and stay in his good graces was uh sometimes a delicate tight rope and um I think especially in that period after the election uh when he was upset and he was pushing these claims of voter fraud which obviously we know there's zero evidence of and he's never been able to prove, but I think a lot of people were kind of avoiding him during that time because they were afraid of his outbursts and how he would react or I remember specifically when I was working for Kaylee Mcini uh he wanted her to do briefings on the subject from the podium and so she would actively avoid him in the West Wing in those uh months following the election because she knew that that was against the Hatch Act and something that she didn't really want to step in. And so I think um it it is interesting just uh seeing now with the second administration and how it doesn't seem like much has changed, but it seems like there's fewer people who are willing to push back on him. And so he's just kind of getting away with everything and it doesn't seem like there's um those kinds of voices in there where I do think that there were some of those kinds of voices at least when I was working for him.
It sounds like it's assumed in what you're saying that he really believed the claims about the election being stolen. I mean, this is something we've gone back and forth about a lot. Does he know that he lost or does he saying this stuff?
At least at the time you were there, he seemed to be what we might call like a true believer. I He was definitely told by people that he lost. So, it's not like he can claim ignorance. Um, I think that he was being told by people that he had lost and then he stopped listening to those people and started listening to the people who were telling him what he wanted to hear. And so then he was believing the conspiracy theories and pushing those out. Um, and so I think when you tell your something enough so many times you actually start to believe it. And so I I think that he knew in the immediate aftermath of the election that he had lost, but I think over time he's convinced himself that it was rigged and stolen and um that he was the actual winner and the people around him who were telling him that is your sense that they were true believers or they saw it as a way to get closer to Trump?
I think a little bit of both. I think that um you know you look at someone like Rudy Giuliani and obviously someone I once held in high regard and you know it's just how the mighty have fallen and what a shame it is to look at uh where he's at now. But I think that you know he saw it as an opportunity to get close to Trump and kind of be his uh right hand but then I think maybe there's a little bit of uh cuckoo happening up there too. So, I think that, you know, or you look at like Sydney Pal, I think that that's someone who's a little cuckoo as well. So, those are folks who I think um saw an opportunity though and um seized it. So, some combination of the two.
How is it that a president is sort of kept or let me put it a different way, we read about different administrations that sometimes the president isn't getting the full story of what's going on out in the world. So, like as an analogy, in uh Jonathan Allen's book and in Jake Tapper's books, a lot is reported about how in the aftermath of the June 27th debate that went so terribly for Joe Biden, Biden wasn't getting the real story about the polling. And so, the the story is the people around him were saying it's still within the margin of error. There hasn't been a big change. What I want to ask you about is this concept of from the outset it just sort of seems like Trump's known to watch Fox News all the time. Biden would read all these newspapers. How could it be that they're not getting the full story? Like is it what what is the what are the ways in which a president might be kept isolated from all of the information?
Yeah. So what you bring up about Biden is a really good point and how his staff kind of shielded him from the truth and I really think that they did a disservice to him. But I'll admit that there is a little bit of that that happens in Trump world too. I know um when I was there uh we would print out uh news articles for him that we knew would make him happy so he could like read the headlines if we were worried he might be in a bad mood or there was something that was upsetting him. We would print out these positive news articles or positive tweets praising him to uh kind of, you know, butter him up and get him in a good mood. And I think that, you know, that is still happening to this day. I'm sure you've seen the reporting about the woman who works for him who they've dubbed the human printer and she literally like was carrying around a printer with him um during the 2024 campaign cycle and um on the golf course and everything and prints out these things for him. And it's a way of buttering him up, but it was also a way of kind of filtering what you wanted to put in front of him because you have to be really careful with what you present Trump with and what you put in front of him because he has a tendency when he hears something, it kind of sticks in his brain and then he'll just repeat it. And so it whether he's reading something that you put in front of him or he hears something on Fox News, you'll notice he'll have a tendency to do that. So you kind of have to be careful with what information you're putting in front of him and presenting him with. And so that was a way that we were at least from the press office, we tried to filter things through to him to kind of control what he had eyes on.
It seems from the public so hard to believe that arguably the most powerful person in the world might not realize what the world is saying about them. You know, like in other words, if Trump gets this sanitized version with the printed positive tweets and headlines, you would imagine that he's going to when he's looking at Twitter at the time or watching Fox or whatever, he would see that there is another narrative. Or you could apply the same question to Biden when he's getting one set of polls from the people allowed to brief him on polling. You would think if he opens up even the New York Times or turns on MSNBC, he would see the news about the polling actually isn't looking so good. But it does it just not work that way?
I think that um maybe it's just like a a thing with their old age that they weren't as in the know and invested in, you know, reading all these different news sources. Like obviously Trump has his favorites. And every now and then, you know, you'll see like a a truth social post or something where clearly something got through um that maybe was on like a you know, a CNN or an MSNBC that he didn't like and he caught some clip of it. I feel like usually it's because like Fox News is airing that clip and doing some discussion about it, if that makes sense. So, um, but for the most part, I think it is his media diet is pretty filtered. And I think the same goes for Biden. And so, yeah, it is kind of a crazy concept to think of, you know, these two powerful men who were, you know, holding the highest office in our land. Um, but I think maybe it was just a product of their age and how old they were that they their staffs are able to kind of get away with that.
That's interesting. Yeah, because I just imagine, you know, if my team tells me, David, people are loving what you said about Epstein. And if I go and look at my emails, YouTube comments, and my Twitter, and I go, "No, they don't. It's very clear that they seems like it would be so easy." But that's interesting to hear from you.
One more thing for the context, and then I want to move into some of what's going on. Now, sometimes you can observe Trump's social media behavior and it'll be like overnight there's not more than a couple hour gap between posts which leads people in the media to go, is he up all night? Are these pre-written and someone sending them out overnight? What are the dynamics of these sort of like allight social media sprees? Was that something the behind the scenes of which you were privy to when you were in the role as deputy press secretary? Was he known to be up all night putting out messages?
I It wasn't something that I was necessarily privy to or that my role would have touched, but I do think that for the most part, these are messages that are coming from him, especially those ones that are in the late hours um or um you know, where you get like a 2 or 3:00 a.m. post from him. Uh those are more than certainly coming from him and not scheduled posts. And I think it's pretty easy to uh differentiate between ones that are written by him and ones that were pre-written by staff. You know, he has his own uh flare that he he adds to his posts as you can probably imagine. And um and so in those scenarios, he's just sitting up all night posting. Yeah, that's that would be my best guess is um and that's what my assumption was when working for him and um looking at his post now.
So, let's talk about the last, you know, it's the last 24 hours and it's the last seven days and it's the last couple of weeks. This this Epstein stuff. One of the things that I'm finding interesting is we have these conflicting denials and explanations where they can't all be true. You know, it's sort of like there was no fire and I'm not the person who started it type of stuff. So we were told there's no Epstein list and also Trump's not on the list and also he's on the list but because Obama, Hillary and Comey put him on the list and it's like well okay but these all of these things can't be true. What does your experience tell you about how you see this evolution of what the statement is? Is it that there's just an initial denial with the idea that maybe the story goes away and as it doesn't go away, you have to come up with new things? Are people talking to him about you might not want to say this, you might want to say that, or is it just he's flying solo and putting out whatever comes to mind? How do you imagine it the the the reaction to the Epstein stuff is developing?
I think it's largely Trump dictating the strategy and him just throwing whatever he can at the wall and seeing what will stick. I think he thought um most controversies that he's faced in the past um he is like teflon. It seems like nothing has an ability to stick with him and that the news cycle kind of quickly moves on and we shift into the next topic. And so this is kind of uncharted territory where it seems like he isn't used to a story sticking around for this long. And um and so I can tell that he's getting frustrated with it. And that's where you see him throwing out these different excuses where you have the White House strategy was clearly for them to say, "No, look, he thought Epstein was a creep and that's why he kicked him out of his club." And Trump obviously had a different strategy. he decided to uh go with the oh well no it's the Obama and Comey they're after me it's like Russia Russia Russia witch hunt and he thought that I think he thought that that would play into his base and get them riled up but obviously this issue goes so much deeper for his base it's something that they are really invested in and so I I this they're not being fooled by his distractions or um his lies that he's trying to come up with and spin. And so, um, and then now we've seen him shift to, oh, well, it was over a, you dispute, he was poaching people from the club and, um, and so it's interesting because, like you mentioned, not all of these things can make sense. Uh, they don't necessarily seem to go together. And so, it it makes me curious what the truth is. And I think we're inching a little bit closer toward the truth. I do think that it more than likely it had to do with him uh getting upset with Epstein over maybe repeatedly um poaching people from Mara Lago. And I think that there's a reason behind that because I believe that Trump knew what Epstein was up to. And uh specifically when Trump was asked about it on a recent gaggle on Air Force One, he was asked about how these were young women that Epste was poaching and he acknowledged that one of those women was one of Epstein's accusers um who worked at Mara Lago and uh she was approached by uh Gileain Mass Maxwell when she was 16. And and so it it leads one to believe if you're kind of connecting the dots here that Trump knew what Epstein was poaching them for and using them for work for because it's not like uh Epstein had his own golf club or resort that he needed these people to come work at. So what was he using them for work for? And I think that, you know, one can kind of connect the dots and see that Trump probably had insight into what um Epstein was doing and what he was up to. And so I just think that that's pretty damning though um when you look at it because I think that Trump may present it as like this was some heroic act like, "Oh, I kicked him out of my club." But at the end of the day, I think a normal decent human being who had that type of insider knowledge would have called the cops. he would have said, "Hey, this guy is uh partaking in child human trafficking and tip them off."
So, that's interesting that that's your view because that's kind of where I'm landing. And I know that there are people who are saying, "Oh, what Trump's covering up is that he was a client of Epstein's and you know, there were these girls that Trump was involved in in the sexual assault of." And I mean, listen, if at some point there's evidence of that, certainly that would be huge. But as the story has evolved and he has acknowledged, yeah, one of the women was underage and it was Virginia Grey and this to me it seems very clear that Trump knew at least something about what was going on but did nothing about it and even the timing of when Epstein was supposed when when the breakup between them supposedly happened. Even some of the timing of that is suspect based on what Donald Trump is saying because it seems that he remained a member at Mara Lago long after news of his activities had sort of become known. Uh, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see. But what's your sense of are there people that are trying, you're guessing here obviously, but based on your experience, do you think there are people that are trying to control what Trump is saying or is it we're not going to be able to control him. Let's just try to clean it up after.
Well, um, one thing that I did want to add on one of your previous comments to was something that I think we're um, in agreement on is that I I don't want to guess what's in the, you know, the files. I obviously never seen him. And uh and so this is all just, you know, me kind of coming up with my um my theories on everything of like what Trump's role in all of this could be. But I think there is something to be said that if there was some sort of silver bullet that could take out Trump, I would have imagined that Merrick Garland would have released these files when he had the chance. And so I don't know what's in there, but I think that um there's something that Trump is panicked over and worried about. And to me, my best guess then is that he did have knowledge of Epstein's activities and just like turned a blind eye cuz he was like, I'm having fun partying with this guy or, you know, or these are my friends and I'm just going to look the other way. So, I I don't know what's in there, but that's just um something that I wanted to add on top of what you said. But, uh to your uh other question, um I think that it's not even just in the case of Epstein, it's oftent times with managing Trump, you're just reacting to what he says. you can give your advice and um sometimes he'll listen and sometimes he'll take it. Um and and I think that you know those around him they're probably I imagine those people around him are probably trying to help him throughout this situation. But for the most part I think that Trump thinks that he has like a the pulse on his base and what they'll react to and um what they care about. And so I think he usually just goes with his instinct of um doing what he thinks is best to say or do at any given time. And I think that this scenario is the first time where we've really seen that he clearly doesn't have his pulse on it. um and that he's reading the situation incorrectly because he's trying to distract them with, you know, oh well, there's it's the Obama and the Comey conspiracy theory and or then he's trying to gaslight them and say, why are we still talking about Epstein? And um and to me that is just infuriating uh the people that voted for him. And I think that that includes MAGA, but then also some of these newer voters that came into the coalition um during the course of the 2024 campaign. Some of those kind of um I like podcast bro types who were listening to people like Theo Vaughn or um Andrew Schultz or um Joe Rogan talk about these things and they are saying, "Hey, something's up here." And they're not buying what he's selling. And so, um, I I I think though that the White House side of things and the staff, they can try their best to push him in a direction, but at the end of the day, Trump's always going to do what he wants to do.
Um, Sarah, last thing I want to talk about. the period of time between January 6, 2021 and when you left, did you get the sense or to put it a different way, what was the sort of makeup of the views in the White House in terms of the people you spoke to as to what happened on January 6th? And what I mean by that is there were a lot of public defenses of Trump. Trump said be peaceful and ultimately he didn't do anything wrong. This sort of thing. But in terms of what was shared candidly between you and others, was there a large contingent that genuinely felt that Trump did nothing wrong and had no blame for what happened on January 6th? Or was there more of a consensus that this is bad? We've got to clean it up. I maybe some people are willing to help clean it up and some like you are not, but that there was sort of a unanimous feeling that no, no, Trump does have culpability here. What What was the environment like?
Yeah, it you know it's so funny because um I was in the West Wing that day and I would say 99.9% of the people who uh were there with me that day were experiencing the same feelings that I was feeling. They were um saddened. They were heartbroken. They were disgusted um and shocked and disappointed um particularly with Trump and his handling of it and feeling like he didn't meet the moment. And this was something that I talked about with staffers um who some of whom still work for him to this day. And so it's just um really interesting to see the whitewashing that has happened. Um and that extends, you know, to the Republican politicians um who, you know, welcomed him with open arms back into the fold when we had an opportunity, I say we as like I'm a member of the Republican party still. I don't know where I am these days anymore. But the Republican party had an opportunity to move uh past him and chart a new direction and instead they chose not to. And so um because we saw all the statements that you know these politicians were putting out in the immediate aftermath of January 6, I wasn't alone in my feelings. Um I did choose to resign that day and obviously there were several other resignations but not as many I think as one would have thought for after witnessing you know the first president in US history disrupt the peaceful transfer of power and um incite an insurrection on our nation's capital. So, um, yeah, I think there there were many more people though who, um, who agreed with me. And then there's a lot of people who I still talk to this day who will tell me privately behind the scenes, hey, I really, uh, respect you for what you did and support you and everything that you're doing and saying like, keep up the good work. But these are people, some of are uh members of Congress, some are their staff, and uh they're not willing to publicly say these things, but they'll say it to me behind my back or I mean in private and uh which is very interesting to me because I do think that that sentiment still holds um within some parts of the party. But then I do think that others have just chosen to, you know, whitewash those events and have kind of convinced themselves of um that, you know, there was no wrongdoing and everything because maybe it's a way of feeling less guilty about themselves. I don't know.
You mentioned, you know, you're not even sure where you are politically right now. Is there an elected official right now that ideologically you feel like is sort of representative of your views? And you know, I I'm thinking of a friend of mine who ever since we were in college. He was like a Romney guy, a Romney type Republican. And he was never a Trump supporter. He did support Democrats for president in the last two elections, at least the last two, because he's not a Trump guy, but he's still like a Romney kind of center-right Republican type person. Is there someone right now that you would say this is really the embodiment of my politics?
Yeah, that's such a good question because um I grew up being a Romney McCain type of Republican. Those were the figures within the party that I admired and um and unfortunately a lot of the other Republicans in the party that I have admired have left office in recent years. Like I think of someone like a Senator Rob Portman from Ohio. I'm from Ohio originally and he was someone that I really look up to and unfortunately just the way that the um the party has shifted. Those types of people are are leaving choosing on their own accord to leave public office or I think of like a will herd from Texas um congressman from there. Uh he's someone that I uh adore and just have the utmost respect for and consider a good friend. And it's like those are the types of Republicans that I want more of in our politics. But unfortunately, our current political system, the way that the primaries are, it doesn't reward those types of Republicans, those more kind of normie types. And um it rewards, you know, those who are on the fringes. And so I I mean there are some folks who like, you know, depending on who the Democrat 2028 candidate was that I would back for president. Like I think probably the the name that comes to mind is like a governor uh Glenn Yncan of Virginia. He's kind of more similar I think to a lot of the um ideals that I believe in and support. And so he would be someone, but like also like I would have a really hard time with the fact of the idea of supporting someone who's not willing to go out there and say that the 2020 election wasn't stolen. Like it's it's sad that that's such like a um like it's the litmus test for me though, but it is and it's something so basic that any politician should be able to say. Um, but I do think that, um, when the Republican primary happens for 2028, I do think there are going to be a lot of candidates who aren't willing to go that far and and say something as simple as that, even though we know it to be the truth. And so, you know, it will it will just depend on um, I think what what the the field looks like on both sides kind of for where my support will go. But there still are Republicans within the party who I I do like and admire, but it's it's hard to see how a lot of them have contorted themselves um to not get on Trump's bad side. And so, you know, there there's a couple out there, but unfortunately, I do think that a lot of the Republicans that are more aligned with my values um have decided to to leave office in recent years, which is uh disappointing because I think we need more people like them to be running, not less. But I wouldn't want to work in Washington either if I were them. So, I I get it. I understand. No, that I sympathize with. Yeah.
We've been speaking with Sarah Matthews, who was briefly Donald Trump's deputy press secretary. Sarah, really great to talk to you. Appreciate it very much, and we'll talk again. Thank you so much for having.