Transcription
You do not have the right to commit war crimes, to commit a genocide, to kill all those children and then hide, hide and use as a shield. Oh, everybody's an anti-semite.
When you have a terror regime like the Nazis who do engage in genocide, unless you finish it off completely and defeat the idea of militarism, that Hamas can achieve its objectives through military objectives and not diplomatic objectives, then you will never have peace. You cannot bomb it into submission. They're replacing dead Hamas fighters at a rate of 5 to one. This is going to come back to haunt you for years. You tell Rabbi Schmoolie that he'll burn in hell as well, 'cause obviously he's ashamed to Jews. Free Palestine.
All right, listen to this. They attacked, attacked, attacked Israel on the 7th of October. They massacred Jews. What is not clear in what I say? All you want is to take over the West Bank and Gaza. You want them all gone. That's the bottom line. As you said, the audience will judge.
Israel's illegal occupations in the Palestinian West Bank are under intense scrutiny after a US citizen was brutally beaten to death by settlers. A 20-year-old who just opened an ice cream business at home in Florida, was attacked on Friday night while visiting relatives and died before reaching hospital. Mike Huckabee, the US ambassador to Israel and normally a fierce advocate for settlers, called it a criminal terrorist act. The West Bank is 50 miles from Gaza and separated by uncompromising Israeli checkpoints, but violence has surged since October the 7th. Netanyahu's government has been expanding its occupation ever since, and the UN estimates that 1,000 Palestinians have been killed. Settlements have been a major barrier to peace for decades in the region. Most countries agree they are illegal, but many religious Israelis believe they have a divine right to be there. The current Israeli government is often accused of using the most aggressive settler groups as a proxy force for shrinking the Palestinian state, an issue highlighted in a recent documentary by Louis Theroux.
"We do for governments what they cannot do for themselves. Um, even if you take Netanyahu now, he's very happy what we do here and also about our plans to build Jewish communities in Gaza. He's happy about it. But he cannot say it. He says the opposite. It's not realistic. Good. We will make it realistic. It's not forcing the government. It's helping the government."
Under the Geneva Convention, transferring a civilian population into a conquered terrain. That, that's considered a war crime. This what I do here is a war crime according to the UN. Cooperating with the person who committed war crimes. Well, I'm interviewing you. It's a light felony.
Well, in a moment, we'll turn to the bigger picture and Israel's strikes today on Syria, as well as the Mossad conspiracies and anti-semitism claims at the heart of the Epstein files debate. We'll begin by talking to Daniela Weiss, who you just saw in that Louis Theroux clip, the leader of the settler group Nahala. Uh, well, welcome to you, Daniela Weiss. Thank you for joining me on our senses. Let me start by by asking you, uh, Mr. Weiss, you're known as the godmother of the Israeli settler movement. Um, is your ultimate ambition for all Palestinians to be removed from the West Bank and Gaza?
You say you ask if it's my, what it's what I want. It's not ambition. Ambition, ambition I put into positive, uh, uh, things. I mean, when people have to move from one place to another, it's not a question of ambition. I think there is no choice now, especially after the massacre of the 7th of October. Uh, the, the Gazans finished their, uh, chapter of history in Gaza, and they will have, uh, the, the terrorists themselves will be killed in the, in the attacks of, uh, of, of the Israeli army, of the, of the IDF, and those who support them will go to, will have to go to immigrate to other countries. And, um, I think it, as far as people who want to live a normal life, I think the option to go to other countries in the world is a, is a good option. But it's not a question of ambition. I have an ambition to settle Jews all over the vast areas of the land that was given by God to the Jewish nation. So this is my ambition. Uh, in, in the midst of things, uh, with the attacks of Arabs in different periods of history, and especially I emphasize now the, the last attack, the last massacre on civilian population, that was the end of the history of the Gazans in Gaza. But there are, it doesn't have to do with ambition, okay? There are two million people living in Gaza. Half of those people are under 18 years of age. More than 20,000 Gazan children have now been killed since October the 7th.
Uh, my, my follow-up question is, uh, how many of the innocent Gazans, how many of the Palestinian children do you think should come to say Israel and to be allowed to settle there, to settle in Israel? Yes. Why? You said why? If you're going to tell them, if you tell them to leave, well, because if you tell them to leave their home, and you say that they should live in other countries, why would Israel not want to provide a home for? Because no, no, because things, the conflict, conflicts between Israel and the Gazans brought this chapter into its end. We don't take any chance anymore. Uh, uh, many soldiers told me, some of them from my own family, that they, were witness to so much, uh, uh, talk and propaganda against Israel. And I think that, uh, there shouldn't be any more any touch, any connection with the Gaza, between the Gaza population and the Jewish state. Let them be in other countries. There's 100 million Egyptians in Egypt. So there will be another half million Gazans in Egypt, and some will be okay.
But what if I, okay, but what if other countries? Okay, but if I suggest that we, we carve out an area of Israel to put the Palestinians, we just slice off? No. And no, let me finish. Let me finish. We slice off an area of Israel, and all the Israelis who currently live there have to leave and go and live in another country. Are you happy about that? Would you be happy with that?
You have some, you have some psychological need to slice pieces of the tiny state of Israel. No, no. I'm just saying, what's this need? I'm just, listen. Gaza, as you know, Gaza, as you know, is a, is a very small territory. I'm talking about a similar sized territory. Is what? Gaza is what? I'm talking about it's a very small territory is what? Gaza is very small. I know. So, I'm talking about taking Indonesia. I'm talking, hang on. I'm talking about taking the Gazan people, the innocent Gazan people, not Hamas, but innocent Gazan people. And I'm talking about taking, okay, taking a piece of Israel and removing all the Israelis who currently live there and sending them off to other countries, and then you put the Palestinian people in that space in Israel. How would you feel about that?
Uh, it's not a question of feel. It's not going to happen. You're why would that be wrong? Why would that be, why would that be wrong, Mrs. Weiss? Why would that be wrong? Because it failed. Uh, we left Gaza in 2005, and, uh, we were promised that Gaza will be Singapore, and, uh, I didn't believe in it, but many Israelis did believe in it, and it turned into hell. Upper hell, down lower hell, hell. And I think no more experiments. We are not a laboratory. We are a nation that wants to live in the land that was given to us to the Jews by God. But you actually, the Arabs, the Gazans don't want it. So I don't want to be an experiment, um, a laboratory with experiments on the Jewish people. No. So you've made it clear you, you think you will. I answer you very. I want to tell you what is your private name. Sorry, I don't know what I'm talking about to my name. What is your name? I want to address you. My name is Piers Morgan. Yeah. Yeah. Morgan, can I address you Morgan? You can call me what you like. My name is Piers Morgan.
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Piers, Piers, help me. Piers, what I want to address you normally as two people who speak. Call me Pierce. Piers Morgan. This. Call me Pierce. Piers. Okay. So I want to tell you, you want to to to proceed with an intelligent, uh, um, dialogue, or you are the interviewer and answering? Let's continue. But if you want to, uh, repeat this experiment of putting Gazans in Israel, the answer is simple. It will never be heard. I heard you. I just wonder so much. Okay. I just wonder. Okay. Hang on. I just want to give you a question. I just wonder, obviously, you're, you're outraged by the idea of Palestinian people taking the place of Israelis in Israel, and I understand that. But what gives you the right to then tell Palestinian people, innocent people, children who've had nothing to do with Hamas, what gives you the right to uproot, let me finish, to uproot those people from their homes and expel them in what would be ethnic cleansing, which is a war crime, as you know.
They, they attacked, attacked, attacked Israel on the 7th of October. They massacred Jews on the 7th of October after we evacuated Gaza for their benefit. What is not clear in what I say? Well, what is not clear is that you have also, in going after Hamas in Gaza, massacred between 70 and 100,000 Palestinians. And at what point does that become disproportionate? At what point does the fact that you won't, that that the Israeli government continues to prosecute this war in a way that kills so many children, does this become something which is completely unacceptable? Okay, not acceptable. So it's a fact. Uh, if they had not, you say that it is not acceptable. I understand that it's not acceptable by you. I think that if the Gazans hadn't started the Hamas, hadn't started the attack, there wouldn't have been a war. And the, the, we, for instance, as people were evacuated from Gaza in the past 20 years, I must say it's kind of an unpleasant confession for me, but this is the truth of the matter, that we haven't dealt with the idea of returning to Gaza, returning to our homes, because we said, okay, there was a a contract. We gave it away. We, we didn't want it to happen. It happened, and that's it. The gates closed. Yeah.
But you have, you actually, but here's the thing. Here's the problem. Uh, Daniela, you have no right. Israel has no right to just take Gaza, to just take the West Bank, to expel Gaza, to expel 8 million Palestinians. You have no right to do this. You have had no right to occupy Gaza for the last god knows how long. Where do you think you have this right to do all this? You're furious at the idea of any part of Israel being given up for Palestinians. Fine. Okay. But why would you then think it's fine for you to take over Gaza and the West Bank? May I ask you, why do you repeat the same question three times? You know, I can, I don't see your face. So, it's a kind of difficult without the gestures. Well, let me, let me simplify it for you. What gives you the right? What gives you the right to think that you can expel millions and millions of Palestinians?
Look here, uh, I don't know if your, the viewers, the people who see your program, have the patience for a historical summary. Uh, the state of Israel was established in 1948, three days after the Holocaust, and 3,000, three years after the Holocaust, and, uh, 2,000 years after the dispersion, after the Romans dispersed the Jewish nation, and then somehow, uh, there is an in-gathering of the Jews in the land of Israel, the biblical land. And the biblical land that we hold to now is very tiny. We tried, according to the partition plan, first to be satisfied with a tiny, tiny piece of land where we have independence. And then when, when we were small, I would say tiny, and even without Jerusalem, we tried to manage a Jewish independence in the biblical state of Israel, and we were prevented from living this way. I was born before the state of Israel. So I know all this history from my own flesh and blood and my own family, and my father wounded in the war of independence. So we tried to live in a tiny, small, in a tiny land, and the Arabs didn't let us live. So then there was the Six-Day War, and where I live now was liberated. I say liberated because it's the heart of our homeland in the Six-Day War, and since then we tried to live peacefully, and the Arabs don't let us. So how can you try to change facts? Now, you gave me a chance to relate a tiny, uh, summary of history. If you have another way to put it, please go ahead.
I'll put it this way. I'll put it this way. I am, I, I am this way. Let me put it this way. The UK government has sanctioned you personally in May of this year. You were described as having been involved in threatening, perpetrating, promoting, and supporting acts of aggression and violence against Palestinian individuals. You, you've been described as the head, the head of extremist settlers. The vast majority of the international community, including the United Kingdom, consider the settlements illegal under international law. Last year, the UN's top court, the International Court of Justice, said that Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is against international law, and Israel should stop settlement activity in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem and end its illegal occupation of those areas and the Gaza Strip as soon as possible. Um, so that's a bit of history for you, which is that you have, you have been seen as the godmother of Israeli extremists who believe that you have a right to all this land. You have a right to settle where you want to. You have a right to expel all the Palestinians and to take over their land. And I say to you that actually, under international, under international law, you do not have that right. It's actually a crime what you're doing, and you should stop doing it. So that's my question. My question for you is, why do you continue to break the law?
I don't know. You know, uh, you present things in a very journalistic way. So I don't know. Well, they're facts. You say do everything I just read you is a fact. Yes. What facts? What facts? I just read you the facts. I can read them again if you didn't hear them. You know, Morgan, listen to this. I never hide what I do. I am being interviewed by you, and by everyday, uh, media people come to this home and to the hills where I establish communities, and I tell, uh, what I think and what I do and what I plan. So if there is anything in what is so openly exposed that is can be considered illegal, well, you're you're committing more crimes. What I do or committing war crimes? Why? So you are speaking to me now. You're giving so much time in your program to a person who commits war crimes. Why do you do it?
I'm holding you to account. I'm holding you to account for your war crimes. I'm telling you, you should stop your war crimes. I'm telling you, you have absolutely, you have no right to displace millions of Palestinians and kick them out of their homes. You don't have that right. You, you, Morgan, you hope that through your program you will enhance the chance that I will be put to trial. Is this, is this why you, you give me so much time in your program? Uh, yeah, I think ultimately you should, you should face a trial. Yeah.
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You should. You should. You're breaking the law and you're inspiring other people to break the law. That's okay. What shall I tell you? I don't think it's not on my part to cooperate with a person if you want to do what you said. If I heard you well in the beginning of this program that you want to give a chance for different people to express the views. Sure. This is journalistic. This is respect. I've heard your views. I just don't agree with you. I, I've heard your views, but then you want to enhance, you want to, you want to enhance the chance that I will be put to trial. Well, I am not sure this is journalistic, but I'm with you in your hands now until this interview is finished. I notice, I notice your decision.
I notice that so far you haven't referred to the people of Gaza or the West Bank as Palestinians. Do you believe they're called Palestinians? The Palestine was the name was given by Hadrian, the emperor of Rome, who wanted to, uh, obliterate, to put an end to the Jewish existence in the world. So he gave us a peculiar name to Jerusalem, Aelia Capitolina, and Israel, Palestina. And he tried very hard, and indeed we were dispersed, and somehow after so many years and so much, uh, persecution, we returned, and we are a successful nation. Are they Palestinian? Why should I support what, why should I support the distorted idea of Hadrian, who failed, and now after the revival of the Jewish state, Arabs from different countries come here and want to enjoy the treasures? I would say most of them are spiritual, but the treasures of the holy land. Right. But just to be clear, you don't, you don't believe they're Palestinians? Jewish success. You will not refer to them as Palestinians? Right. I think that Palestinians were invented by Hadrian, and that the Arabs that come to Israel today want to get for themselves the success of the Jewish state that was created here after many years of dispersion.
Okay. And Mrs. Weiss, how do you feel about the fact that over 20,000 Palestinian children have now been killed since October the 7th in Gaza?
I think that the Palestinians, as you said, you see, I said Palestinians, the Gazans, and all Arabs around should stop attacking Israel. I just asked you how you thought about 20,000 children being killed by the IDF. Ah, so how do you feel about that? I think that that I think that the parents should be very careful before they teach the children to hate Jews and to kill Jews. That wasn't my question. That wasn't my question. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry to be persistent, but my question was your question. My question was, how do you feel? My question was, how do you feel? Yeah. How do you personally feel about over 20,000 Palestinian children now being killed since October the 7th in Gaza? How do you feel about that?
I, I think I think that Arabs, Gazans, or Jordanians or Syrians, whoever, should be very, very careful with the way they educate the children. Yeah, that wasn't my question. That wasn't my question. Many of them were, many of them. Answer my question. Answer. That was my answer. You don't care. You have no thoughts about these children at all. You choose, you choose your questions, and I answer them the way I believe is right. But just to be clear, you have nothing to say about 20,000 children being killed. Nothing at all. I have a lot, I have a lot to say about everything that happened as a result of the massacre of the 7th. Now, understand, you care about Israeli children who died, as do I. But I'm able to care about both sides of children who've died. Why don't you care seemingly about the Palestinian children who've died? Why can't you express any sympathy or sorrow or empathy with the children who've died in Gaza? Are you able to do that?
I, I, I warn all Arabs from all sides, from all borders. Warn them, stop educating children to hate. So, just to be clear, I've now offered you three, stop, three times. I made myself very clear. Oh, you've made yourself very clear. You five times. I'm going to give you one last. You, I'm going to give you. Okay. I'm going to give you one last chance to offer some empathy or sympathy or sorrow about the deaths of 20,000 children in Gaza. Are you capable of doing that?
I can tell you that had you cared, and I don't believe you, that that you care a tiny bit about one killed person, if you do not use the means that you have as a media person to stop educating children. I gave you four chances. Choose. Okay. You gave me seven. You gave me seven. And you know what? You couldn't give a damn, could you? You couldn't give a damn. More than me. You don't care. And all you want is all the Palestinians gone. You can barely even bring yourself to say their name. All you want is to take over the West Bank and Gaza. You don't care how many die in the process. You want them all gone. You don't care, do you? That's the bottom line. As you said, the audience will judge. Yeah, they will. Uh, Daniela Weiss, thank you very much for coming on. I appreciate it.
Well, joining me on the panel is author and activist Rabbi Schmoolie, the founder and CEO of The Young Turks, Cenk Uygur, and The Sunday Times columnist and author Matthew S. Uh, Matthew, you were sitting here with me watching that interview. Uh, your thoughts?
Well, I thought it was a very illuminating interview, and the kind of smiling maternal face of religious fundamentalism in Israel. You asked many times what gave her the right to ship out Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. She gave a whole range of answers, but the key one was early in the interview when she said she had a divine right. She believes that that area is promised to the Jews by God. And because of that, and the fact that she believes she has the absolute truth, she feels that anything is justified in meeting that aspiration. I've written a lot about this conflict and I focused, I think rightly, in many ways on the fundamentalism of Hamas. They also think they've got absolute truth. They think they are justified in killing infidels and killing Jews. But we have to recognize that Israel, yes, it's a liberal democracy. I support it instinctively. It's in a tough neighborhood. But there are within Israel fundamentalists. And what worries me the most, Piers, is that within the Israeli cabinet, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, these are fundamentalists, nationalists, they have the ear of Netanyahu. And ever more I get the sense that they are nudging the administration towards more carnage, more bloodshed. It's obliterating the image of Israel in the wider world. It seems to me, with no strategic objective in sight. And it was so interesting to listen to her and to see her implacability.
Yeah, I mean, um, I found the constant smirking, the total refusal to offer any personal sorrow or empathy with these kids who've been killed. You know, not even, not even to try and phrase it as, you know, unfortunately, this is collateral damage in war. Nothing. No attempt to offer anything at all. Just an utterly intractable hardline view. All this land belongs to Israel, and we're going to take it, and we don't care.
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Yeah. Look, you just interviewed a terrorist. Um, and, uh, she's one of the most vicious terrorists of my lifetime. Uh, these settlers are lunatic religious fundamentalists that believe in murdering Palestinians for God. It's an absurd interpretation of any religious document. Uh, the overwhelming majority of Jews, by the way, do not agree with them. They don't think that you have to murder Palestinians for God. Uh, and so when you asked her that last question, it was actually very interesting what her answer was. You said, "Do you mind 20,000 children being killed?" and she said, "As long as they're teaching their children to hate Jews," she seemed to be justifying that we have to kill their children. So, think about the absurd logic of that. Since they teach them to hate, uh, us, we murdered their children. Gee, I wonder why they hate you. Like, the fact that she can't even see that shows you how painfully stupid this terrorist is. So, I'm done. Like, you guys are way too polite to Israel. Israel is a terrorist state. I'm not interested in it. I'm not interested in supporting it. I'm not interested in having them steal more Arab land. And I said to you, Piers, a long time ago, that this was never about self-defense. This was about taking Gaza. Well, I was right. I've been proven right by Netanyahu and their terrorist government. I called them terrorists, and I said that they would kill more civilians than Hamas. Are you kidding me? They've now, get a load of this fact. Hamas killed 815 civilians on October 7th. Terrible. We've all condemned it a thousand times. Now, Israel has killed 870 Palestinians under the age of one. They have killed more Palestinian babies than Hamas killed civilians on October 7th. And every time it's a justification, no, we, we talked to God. God told us to steal Arab land. God told us to murder Arab children. What kind of sick state is this? When I saw her smiling, like you said, and smirking. Now, when I see a lot of these Israeli leaders, I feel like I'm looking at Germans telling us, "No, it's okay. We can do this to the Jews. There's going to be no consequences." And they're smirking. This partly, Piers, has to do with the fact that they think we own America. There's nothing you can do. We, we control the largest military in the history of the world. We can get them to do whatever we want because APAC has bought the entire US government. And she's not wrong. She's not wrong. I mean, today Trump is talking about, "Yeah, you're not going to get the Epstein files. You're not going to get anything. We're occupied. We're all Palestinians."
Now, Rabbi Schmoolie, I mean, when you listened to that interview with Daniela Weiss, what did you feel about it, Piers?
Uh, thank you for having me on. And having had a surprisingly, um, civil debate at Oxford University with my brother Cenk, I'm actually going to excuse his hyperbole of calling Jews Nazis and stick to the facts because you were right, Piers, in your discussion with Daniela. She should have. Smearing Jews. No, no, no. Cenk, you're German. Cenk, please don't. Okay, you're already interrupting me. Just be civil, please. We had a civil debate at Oxford. Let's try to continue. We shook hands afterward. Hundreds of thousands of people said how much they enjoyed watching us shake hands. Let's be human a little bit. I'm going to do what you said, Piers, and stick to the facts. Number one, Cenk just said that Israel killed so many more civilians that were killed on October 7th. 45,000 Britons died in the Battle of Britain when, um, the Luftwaffe and Herman Göring, you know, bombed London, uh, Northampton to smitherines. But Churchill killed 700,000 German children. He killed 3 million German civilians. That was terrible. But here's my question to you, Piers: Outside of Parliament is a giant statue of Churchill as the greatest statesman in the history of Britain. Was Churchill a war criminal? Yes or no?
Uh, no. Churchill wasn't a war criminal. In fact, Matthew, I saw you shaking your head. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. You said you said facts. You said fact. You said facts. Hang on. If you're going to make statements like Churchill. Wait, wait, wait. Your numbers aren't correct. The number of civilians who died, never mind. Yes, they are. There were four, there were four, there were there were there were 3 million German civilians killed by Britain and by the United States. There were 70,000 Japanese killed on a single day in Hiroshima, and then Nagasaki, half of them were children. 35,000. Was Harry Truman a war criminal? Was Roosevelt a war? If you are prepared to say, Piers, based on facts and based on what Cenk just said, that the proportion of civilians to combatant deaths determines whether you're a war criminal, and by the way, Churchill killed five civilians for every one German combatant. The United States and Fallujah killed four civilians in Fallujah and Iraq for every one terrorist Iraqi combatant. So was George W. Bush a war criminal? Was Tony Blair a criminal? If you're prepared to at least be consistent and say that yes, I think I think Bush and Blair were. Three million. Was Churchill? Okay. Do you think that Winston Churchill was a war criminal? It's a yes or no question. The same way you put it. Yes or no? Churchill. Let me let Churchill can kill three million. Question. You've asked a question, Matthew. I, I think it's a completely coherent and fair question. It's about means and ends. Is the, is the means justified to achieve a given end? For what it's worth, I think that that consequentialist approach is legitimate. I think that Truman was justified in the atomic bombs. I say that reluctantly, but I think there would have been many more deaths had the Second World War not been brought to an end in that way. I know some people will disagree with that position. However, one of the most.
Wait a second. So, you're one of the most fair persons that I've ever spoken to about on on this show. All I'm saying is let's let's be clear, Piers. God weeps for every Palestinian child. The 20,000 children. I don't know if it's 20,000, but even if it is, that's weep for every one. One was too many. Every Arab child is the equal of a Jewish child. But whose responsibility is it? Who builds? I live, I live in a community here in New York, New Jersey. There is no army base near me. Why are the Hamas civil Hamas headquarters in nurseries? Why does Hamas use these children to die so that you will then point the finger? Now, even now, even Hitler did not do that. The, the German military headquarters were not built in kindergartens. And let me say one final thing, uh, Piers, if I may. Piers, you know what struck me about your interview with Daniela Weiss? You did not once ask her, "What do the people of Gaza want?" I don't care what Piers Morgan wants. I don't care what Daniela Weiss wants. I don't care what Cenk Uygur wants. I don't care who wants to leave. The people of Gaza have not had a, have not, don't speak for them in the same way I won't. They have not had a vote since 2005 when Hamas took the leaders of the of of the PLO, the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, and threw their opponents off the roofs and killed them. Then Hamas abolished all elections. Now I want the people of Gaza to vote. Do you want to remain in that tiny hovel when you don't have a backyard? Where any money that's given to Hamas, if it's rebuilt, will be again, it'll go to tunnels. Remember that the, uh, Hamas got triple the martial aid per capita for Palestinians, and they didn't build one bomb shelter, they didn't build one school, they didn't build one university, they just built tunnels and rockets. Ask the people. So, Piers, let me ask you, can I say, may I say to the rabbi, forgive me for insisting, decide where they want to live. But the rabbi did say, I think legitimately, that he had been interrupted and he didn't like it. I was halfway through the point that I was making, if I may say so, when he jumped in. I said that I thought Truman was justified in ending the Pacific War. I think Churchill was justified in trying to end the war in Europe. What I don't understand, and I think a lot of people who are instinctively pro-Israel do not understand, aware of the sunlit uplands on the other side of the evisceration of Gaza. I've been told by senior Israeli officials confidentially that young Gazan Palestinians and people across the Middle East are being radicalized, that these dead Hamas fighters are being replaced at a rate of 5 to 1. This isn't going to affect Israel for the next 5 months or 5 years, but for the next 50 years. And how on earth is flattening Gaza going to help the protection of Israel when their funders are in Tehran? I agree the image, and in, let me just make one final point. In the medium term, I say to the rabbi, and I say this with great sincerity, the image of Israel, I, I don't want to superficialize it, but the brand of Israel, that liberal democracy in a tough neighborhood, which sits unconsciously behind Western support and has done since the Second World War, has been obliterated, shattered into a million pieces. The next generation of American leaders are going to grow up where the most salient image in their minds is not going to be the Holocaust, as it is for our generation. It's going to be emaciated Gazan children dying in their thousands, being starved via a blockade. I say to you, I understand why Israelis and Jews rallied around Netanyahu after October the 7th. Who wouldn't after an atrocity of that kind? But I believe you've been goaded into an overreaction that will reverberate through history of great strategic disadvantage to a country I want to do well. I see you.
All right. And before I let Rabbi respond, before you respond, Rabbi, I, I just wanted to pick you up on the statistics that you regaled at the start of that, which I think you said that the British killed 3 million German civilians, including 300,000 children. Is that what you said? A, a, a, a five to one combatant to civilian. Just to be clear, you said three million, and of which 300,000 were children. That's what you said. Right. Right. Right. Right. The British decimated, they decimated. They decimated Hamburg. They decimated in Dresden. They killed 30,000. Etc. You let me finish my point. You were completely wrong. You were wildly exaggerating the number of civilians killed by the British bombing campaigns, the Allied bombing campaigns. It's estimated between 350 and 500,000 German civilians were killed in total by Allied bombing in World War II. And I would also add this at the end of. Okay. So I, let me finish my point of 700,000. Let me finish my point. Let me finish my point. So it was a sixth of what you said, in fact. But the point, the wider point is we brought in the Geneva Convention at the end of World War II specifically to address the issues of mass civilian casualties in World War II. The UK signed up to that. Most countries of the world signed up to it. Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Convention. And yet it breaches regularly the Geneva Convention, including, many believe, what they're now doing as a government in Gaza. I don't know how you could possibly say, by the way, uh, I don't have the advantage of having researchers behind me or having a laptop. So, can you ask your researchers, how many German children did Churchill kill? That's what I want to know. Exactly. I've given you your chance to to to spew statistics. You were completely wrong. How many children? How many children? How many German children who were totally innocent? No, no, no. One second. You said you said that Churchill killed 700,000, and now you said that Israel killed 40 or 50,000. Doesn't that make Churchill a much bigger war criminal than Netanyahu? Yes or no, Piers?
No, he's not a war criminal. Churchill is not a war criminal. Why? Why? He killed civilians. Why? Why aren't you answering my point? We've all. You don't answer my point. If Netanyahu is a war criminal for killing 45,000 Palestinians, why is Churchill, whose statue sits outside Parliament, not a criminal for killing eight times that amount of people? Go ahead, please. Cenk. And by the way, and by the way, let me just tell you, Piers, you can't say the technology didn't exist because the Americans used the Norden bomb sight and only did precision daytime bombing. Mr. Sed will know that it was Churchill who said, "I will not, I will not risk a single RAF pilot. I don't care how many Germans die. I will only do indiscriminate broad nighttime bombing." Churchill was out to decimate cities, allow the German people. So why is he not a war criminal? You won't answer me, Piers. You won't answer.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, I'm trying to answer them all, but all you'll do is propagandize for a bunch of terrorists. So, first of all, Piers is absolutely right. We passed those Geneva Convention laws so that we could prevent crimes against humanity. Not just what the Germans did to the Jews, the Poles, the Roma, etc., but also what the Allies did in indiscriminate carpet bombing of civilian populations. So, we tried to learn from the Holocaust. We tried to learn from World War II. And we all said never again. These laws should not be broken because it leads to terrible situations. Israel then said, "No, we're above the law. We get to break any law we like." And now, and in the case of the, the Germans, they were killing six million Jews. They killed 13 million overall. We were trying to stop a Holocaust. In this case, Israel is the one doing the genocide and saying, "Well, I mean, why are you trying to stop us from killing innocent Palestinians and taking their land?" Because in that analogy, you're the Germans. So the Palestinians on the German. Those innocent children didn't do anything, dude. Call me a Nazi. Uh, if you're supporting Israel. Yeah. I'm a Nazi. So look, they did a Holocaust, which is, and, and you called other people. State of Israel. You just called me a Nazi. Hey, Rabbi, can I? This is a sad. This is a sad day for you, Cenk. Cenk, this is a sad day for you. Just for your credibility, take it back. I'm begging you. Not for me. I finished my service credibility. Just take it back. I'm not going to take it back. This is a sad day for you. I'm not going to take it. This is a sad day for your credibility. This is to compare me to the SS of the Nazi. This is a sad day for you. Your credibility will never from Jen. I want to I want to invite. I want to invite the viewer. What you just never recover. Piers, can I finish? Been called a Nazi. Can I respond? Piers, may I respond? No. No. No. Because I haven't finished a goddamn sentence. You think you own everything. You don't own everything, Rabbi Schmoolie. You don't own the American government. You don't own the American people. By the way, when are what is America going to get? It's $300 billion back. You, we gave it to a bunch of criminals to murder children. Okay? You murder children with our money. Every day you take money out of my taxes. I go to work every day, and then you, Israel, takes money out of it to murder Palestinian children. You've murdered 20,000 children already. You're the aggressors. You've already killed, Israel has already killed more babies than Hamas has killed civilians overall. Israel has killed a stadium full of women and children. And you are surprised that we compare you to the Germans? Omar Bar-Tov, an Israeli American Holocaust expert, just wrote an article in the New York Times saying that now the Israelis are doing the type of genocide that makes saying "never again" absurd. Absurd. Why are they doing the thing that was done to them? The world had tremendous sympathy for all Jews, and, and we, I, all decent human beings do. But what Israel is doing is lighting that sympathy on fire and saying, "We get to murder. We get to kill, and you can't call us any names. We get to call all Muslims who fight back against us terrorists. We get to attack all of our neighbors. They attack Syria again today. We get to break all the laws. We get to commit war crimes." And I'm telling you right now, just like the Germans, you do not have the right to commit war crimes, to commit a genocide, to kill all those children, and then hide, hide, and use as a shield. Oh, everybody's an anti-semite. An anti-semite. You're canceled. You don't get to say it. You've ruined your credibility. No. Israel has ruined its credibility. Israel is now one of the most monstrous states I have ever seen in my lifetime. They commit endless terrorism. They robbed the American people of our money to rob Palestinians of their land. That is actually a stone-cold fact. And I was right. Israel is now occupying 75% of Gaza. It was always to steal their land. Okay. And by the way, it is a desecration of Jewish history and and Jews overall, because government history of Jews. Okay, Cenk. I want to bring in Matthew to respond to that.
I, I just can't help thinking, listening to to both of you, how different the region and the world would have been if after October the 7th, as the whole of the world reeled against the heinousness of that crime, the sympathy of the global south was with Israel. Polling was very strong for understandable reasons. And I don't want to reduce this to opinion polls. That was a moral atrocity. If Israel had acted proportionately, it's a difficult word in a context like this, but hadn't visited the carnage, had retained the support of the wider world, had gone for a rapprochement, an accord with Saudi Arabia. It already had the Abraham Accords. Most moderate Sunni opinion was in favor of more, uh, harmony between the Arab world and Israel. Most of these Arab governments are relatively moderate. Just think of that. How Iran would have been isolated. The collateral that Israel could have brought to bringing peace to the region. And what's happened instead, this overreaction, the inflamed conversation that we're listening to today, ever more entrenched positions. And the thing that I think historians will be most fascinated in is how, as I understand it, good reporting from The New York Times just recently, that an accord with Saudi Arabia was scuppered from within the Israeli cabinet by, by Smotrich and the extremists who have every incentive to keep this war going because of their really quite horrific objectives and Netanyahu's personal political interest of obfuscating a trial for corruption. That is what I think is the great tragedy that is unfolding before our eyes. And listening to the entrenched positions of you two, Piers, I, I don't see an easy and obvious solution.
No. Well, I, I certainly concur with with the difficult solution. But no, no, no, no, wait. I now disagree with Matthew. Don't have to be able to speak. Don't equate me with a terrorist. Piers, I have, I have to be able to speak. Piers. Piers. All right, Rabbi Schmoolie, your response. I called the Nazi on the show. I become. Okay. Okay.
Thank you very much. Matthew, you're a very fair person, but with all due respect, you're just not realistic. You are a noble idealist.
The two most important words that were ever uttered in the Second World War were "unconditional surrender." Winston Churchill and Casablanca by Franklin Roosevelt, who didn't even tell him who his ally was. And Churchill had fought the Nazis alone. Those two words were unconditional surrender.
Churchill said, "If you insist on unconditional surrender against the Nazis, they're going to fight to the last man." And Churchill was actually secretly negotiating with Heinrich Himmler through Count Bernadotte in Switzerland without the Americans even knowing. The Americans insisted on unconditional surrender. And why? They understood when you have a terror regime like the Nazis, who do engage in genocide, unless you finish it off completely and defeat the idea of militarism that Hamas can achieve its objectives through military objectives and not diplomatic objectives, then you will never have peace.
Hamas has launched six wars against Israel since Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Israel uprooted its own citizens. It was almost a civil war because it used the IDF to uproot its citizens. I want to talk fact here. Not what you think, Matthew. Not what Chen thinks. And Pierce, not what you think. Just fact. That's a fact. 2000. So Cheng says Israel wanted it back. They used their soldiers to uproot their citizens and destroy their houses. And my wife's first cousins were was one of those houses. 2005. My children planted the last trees in Gush Katif, and they were cut down by Palestinians right afterward.
One second. Let's stick to facts. Number two. Um, so you're you wanted to steal their land from a long time. Wait, no, no, no, no. One second. I did not interrupt. I did not interrupt you, Pierce. When you say breaking Geneva Convention, that's not fact at all. Israel withdrew from Gaza. There are 1.9 million Arab-Israeli citizens living under the protection of the IDF who don't even have to serve. Israel does practice apartheid, but reverse grass Jews only and not not and not Arabs to the to the IDF. My sons are fighting right now in Gaza and Lebanon protecting 2 million Arab-Israeli citizens. And let's remember when Iran fired their missiles on Israel. One missile took out an entire Arab family near Nazareth, killed seven Arabs. My sons are risking their lives for 1.9 million Arab-Israeli citizens, which gives the lie factually to the utter stupidity and ignorance of what Shank is saying about a genocide.
Genocide was a term coined by a Jewish lawyer survivor of the Holocaust named Raphael Lemkin in 1947. It was adopted by the United Nations in 1948. The UN gen. What is genocide? Geno is an ethnicity, a nationality. Side is mass murder. It's where you kill a nationality. If Israel wanted a genocide, the first people it would kill is the 1.9 million Arab citizens who vote, who have 10 members of the Knesset, whose members get up and curse out Israel every day and can't be arrested. They have diplomatic immunity. Israel is the most just, most democratic, and freest nation in the entire Middle East, which is why those Arabs in Israel did not rise up and revolt after October 7th.
Now, Matthew, Matthew, let me tell you one final thing. Can I can I reply? I wish you're you're a Matthew, wait, let me just finish. You're a very reasonable man. I wish you were right that after watching women have their breasts cut off and and being played baseball with it by the terrorists, when those women were raped and shot in the genitals, when Shani Louk was raped and then put on the back of that truck and her father murdered 20,000 children. I wish I wish I wish I wish could have thought of a proportional response. But but Matthew, let me put this to you. Don't you think the war would end tomorrow? But you had to murder children instead. You were forced into surrendered and released the hostages. Israel would leave Gaza tomorrow. My children are in Gaza. I want them out. I don't want Gaza. I want the people of Gaza to have a vote. I don't want what Cheng says. I don't want Pierce said. I don't want Daniela Weise said. Give the people of Gaza a vote. Where do you want to live? Where do you do you want to be a better country? You had a lot you had a long Let Matthew respond. You asked him a question. Let him respond.
You, you at the beginning of that contribution, you made a substantive and I think reasonable argument. You drew an analogy between the destruction of Hamas and the destruction of the Nazis. I think this is a flawed analogy. Nazism was a nationalist movement within Germany. It was not intended to be an international movement. Germany's allies in the Second World War, Italy and Japan, it wasn't really an axis. They hated each other. They didn't coordinate effectively. By defeating the Nazis in Germany, they defeated Nazism. Religious fundamentalism crosses national borders. It's an ideology. You can't bomb it into submission. I mentioned earlier that they're replacing dead Hamas fighters at a rate of five to one. This is going to come back to haunt you for years. The way to do it was to isolate the funders in Iran by having a proportionate response, lessen what you've done, retaining global public opinion. These metaphors, and I've heard them from Israeli politicians, they melt under scrutiny. Please think about, by the way, the psychology is completely different between what's happening in the Second World War, German European psychology, where you could rebuild a democratic country and what's happening in Hamas in Gaza. Unless we're clear, unless we have clarity over what the objectives are for Israel, Netanyahu's not talked about day one. We have no idea what the plan is except for Smotrich's idea of ethnic cleansing, which would tarnish Israel's image irredeemably.
Yeah, I've got to leave it there. We do I I've got to leave I'm going to leave. Listen, Israel says they're going to take Gaza. They they say Palestinians will never get a state. Israel is we know. I don't know why you're obfuscating for Israel. It was Trump who said we're going to murder the Palestinians until we take God. They say total annihilation. Why do I say the Germans? Because they're talking about total annihilation. The good thing is the good thing is we have Donald Trump said he's taking 75%. Good thing is, if I may, if I may, the good thing is it's come out of Smotrich's own mouth, the finance minister, that the plan is to quote cleanse Gaza of Palestinians. It was unequivocal. We all is one guy and he was told. Then I get totally I get told he doesn't matter. No one listens to him. And yet the New York Times say he doesn't matter. New York Times reported that the whole deal to release hostages I completely disagree when the whole deal to release the hostages a year ago was abandoned because of Smotrich. So a guy who doesn't matter managed to do that which would have prevented tens of thousands of people being true. There were there were there were there were there were two ceasefires against you left the government. So that's factual funding Israel. Modric is an evil human being. They should not give us the 300 billion back. Israel is a 300 billion government minister send it for war who is making it clear what he wants to do. I've got to leave it there. I've got to leave it there. Rabbi Schmoolie. We have run out of time. I have another guest waiting. I'm going to leave it there. You all had a good time to speak. I appreciate the debate. Thank you very much, Matthew. It was great meeting you. God bless you.
Well, joining me now is the actor and activist Jacob Burger, who is part of a second Freedom Flotilla headed for Gaza. Jacob, thank you for joining me on Uncensored. Oh, thanks so much for having me on the show. You know, I I'm not a massive fan of these flotillas, as I think you're probably aware. Uh, I didn't really see the point of the one that Greta Thunberg embarked on. Uh, I'm not really sure what the aim is. If it's to raise awareness about what's happening in Gaza, I think the whole world is extremely aware of what is happening. Uh, and I don't see that anything that happened from the last flotilla has made a scintilla of difference to the situation.
So why do you disagree? Well, I disagree with this because there's been an illegal siege on Gaza by Israel since 2006, 2007. It's funny that your guest Daniela kind of talked about uh Israel leaving Gaza, but obviously we know that they've been stopping and blocking aid. What Israel is doing is completely illegal. And the flotilla, the goal of the flotilla is to break that siege to hopefully inspire other people to create a humanitarian corridor to bring much needed aid to the people of Palestine who are being systematically genocided and the weaponization of of starvation of food. And it's going to be very important that we continue on with this because as many times as Israel might stop us, we're going to keep going.
Right. But like I say, the first flotilla with Greta Thunberg, it didn't achieve anything. It wasn't the first flotilla, Pierce. This is today. This one that we're about to go on embark is the 37th. Okay. And what it did is it brought a lot of attention to what Israel is doing. But I don't I just don't agree with that. The only one I was even aware of was the Greta Thunberg one. So Well, you should be aware in 2010 that Israel boarded the flotilla and killed 10 activists. I'm aware of that. But you're talking about prior to October the 7th then. Yeah, that was Yes. We've been going since 2008. Correct. Okay. So I'm talking about what's happened since October the 7th. And I think the reality of the Greta Thunberg flotilla is that you got a lot of publicity for Greta Thunberg as her campaigns tend to do. But it was singularly ineffective and I just don't how well well it wasn't as as far as bringing in aid that's part of it but the real part of it is to put the highlight like I said of the illegal blockade and siege of Gaza by Israel. What we're doing trying to deliver aid is totally legal. We're going in international waters into Palestinian waters. But you're not going to be able to do it, are you? Because let me Can I finish? Pierce, it shows the evil of Israel and how they are will do anything to stop us trying to help the people of Palestine. I mean, you would agree that weaponizing starvation is immorally wrong, right? Yes, I would. And I've been very critical about it. And I think the fact that Israel won't allow any international journalists into Gaza is a complete disgrace. I'm just not convinced that these flotillas are anything more than honestly, if I'm being completely honest, a bit of an ego trip for Greta Thunberg and people such as yourself. Even though I don't even though I don't Well, I don't question I don't just to be fair, I don't question your personal motivation. I I think I probably agree with you about a lot of it. I'm just not sure these flotillas are anything other than a PR exercise.
Well, you should speak to the people in Gaza because the people of Gaza, this type of flotilla mission gives them a lot of hope. It shows that the world actually cares about them and we're going to still do everything we can to try and break that siege. The real question is why is Israel intimidated by a boat filled with peace activists just trying to bring food and diapers and baby formula to civilians? But, you know, you won't be able to get that to Gaza. That's not beside the point. We're trying to break through if that if if obviously Israel takes uh kidnaps us, which they did kidnap Greta. I know you kind of uh dragged her over the coals saying that it wasn't, but it was by all means a kidnapping. We were they kidnapped them in international waters and it just further highlights the crimes of Israel. I actually think that using the word kidnap in the scenario of her simply being taken off and then led away with all due respect where she came from to be honest. Jacob really Jacob I actually just felt it was incredibly insulting to the hostages who were actually kidnapped. to use a word like kidnapped when Greta Thunberg was given some sweets and a nice drink and had a blanket put around her and was now European offer for what happened. You were so this whole episode holding the Zionists to the coals and now you're reverting back to Zionist hospital. I don't I don't I don't have a I don't take sides. No, you are you're talking about the sandwich and the the thing and the selfie float and all that. I see what you're doing here. Well, I saw what happened. I saw the video footage. Yeah, right. Right. What's your point? She wasn't kidnapped and it's insulting to host weapons drawn. They came with weapons drawn, Pierce. Okay. Maybe you don't believe it to be so, but lawyers and international uh advocates would disagree with you. You you feel comfortable using the word kidnap knowing what happened to so many? Absolutely. The same way I wouldn't use the terms hostages for who's left in Gaza. They're all PIS at this point, right? They're all soldiers in there. Okay.
Um, when do you hope to get to Gaza? Uh, right now we're having a pit stop here in Gallipoli, Italy. Uh, we'll be leaving out on Friday. It should take about a week for us to sail to Gaza. We're going to keep uh, you know, keep the attention of the world on what we're doing. And so about a week, eight days or so, assuming we don't get intercepted by Israel.
Okay. Well, Jacob Burger, I I wish you safe travel. I hope nothing untoward happens to you guys. And like I said, that's it. We had a whole That's all. Huh? That That's it. I I don't think you're going to make a shred of difference to what's happening in Gaza whatsoever. No, Peter. I mean, honestly, I don't know why you totally shifted your tone here. You know, you were being very critical of Danielle and now you're acting like a Zionist with me. No, I'm not a Zionist and I'm not It's despicable the way that you It's despicable the way that you went after Greta who has more courage and more more honesty in her heart than you will ever have. Yeah, I don't agree with that either. But that's fine. That's your opinion. You're entitled. And you can you tell Rabbi Schmoolie that he'll burn in hell as well cuz obviously he's ashamed to Jews, him and Danielle. Okay. And free Palestine. All right. Nice to see you, Piers. Good luck and I hope it goes safely for you. Thank you for joining me.
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