WINNING: The Unforgiving Race to Greatness w/ Tim Grover

The language of winning for people that win is completely different than the language of winning from other individuals. No, you sit here and you talk to people, and they describe the. When I talk to all my athletes, I said, "Describe winning in one word to me." And everybody would think about, you know, they would be like, "It's happy. It's, you know, it's euphoric. It's all those things." And it is. But those constant winners, their answers were, "It's unpolished. It's uncivilized. It's nasty. It's hard. It's dirty. It's unforgiving." And then Colby comes up and says, "It's everything."

Welcome back to Max Out, everybody. Today, I have a great friend to share some time with. We're also going to share some tequila together today throughout the show. But this is one of my best friends. This is somebody that, here's what I would say, when I think of man, if you look up "man" in the dictionary, I see Tim Grover. He's a good man. He's a real man. He's got an unbelievable experience of his life. His first book, "Relentless," has sold nearly a million copies, and he's got a new book out, "Winning," which I think is even better. And that's saying a lot. When all you know, top five books of all time, I recommend "Relentless" is on that list. I'm telling you, I think this book is even better because it's about flat out, to the point, about what we all want to do in our life, which is winning. And he's an expert on it. So, Tim Grover, welcome back to the show, brother.

Thank you so much. Cheers. You know what? I can end the show right there. Thank you. Well, you know, I mean it. So that's what's, that's what's unique about it. That, that's, that's why I said I could end the show right there because you don't give accolades out very easily. I don't either. I know you don't. They're very difficult for both of us to accept. Yeah. You know, I see it on your face. Very difficult to both accept. So, cheers. I love you. Uh, well, we got a lot to talk about today. Here's the great thing. There doesn't need to be any intro because people find out you and I are doing this together, like they're already sharing the show from like, one minute into it. Everyone on the planet's like, sharing this thing. So, I love this topic. But you've been, as most of you know, if you don't know, Tim's been instrumental in a lot of winning in his life with a lot of different people. Obviously, probably best known for your work with Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant. And you start out the book. I read the book cover to cover in one sitting. I told you this. I read every single word of it. Which didn't surprise me. Which we knew you would. Preparation. Preparation, by the way, it was just good. I'm learning. Right? I'm learning. But the beginning of the book, guys, this is an unbelievable story about your last conversation with Kobe Bryant. Just your relationship with him because I think a winner, I do think of Kobe and MJ, 11 championships between them. Tell everybody a little bit about that conversation.

You know, Kobe and I, we text off. He was no longer playing bat. He was no longer playing basketball. He had moved into the business world, already won an Oscar, wrote an amazing children's book. And we text back and forth. We tried to see each other. He was busy. I was busy. And say, "How you doing?" He'd be, "I'm good. How you doing?" And we, "I'm chasing the next win." He's chasing the next win. And we were going to get together. The All-Star game was going to be in Chicago. And our plan was, he was going to come in town, you know, to support and some business stuff and so forth. So, we had planned a get-together. And, uh, he said, "He'll text me when I'm in town." I said, "Hey, I'm not going anywhere." And sorry, brother, I'm the only guy who gets Tim Grover to cry on the show. You're good. It never happened. Yeah, it never happened. He said something to you at the end of that conversation, too, right? About talking about winning or "I'm going to keep winning" or something like that? It was actually, "Chasing the next win." "Chasing the next win." "Chasing the next win." What was it like for you, Tim? Because obviously, the emotion on your face is, this is not Tim. You're not a, you're not a crier. No. What I'm curious, what, when you heard the news originally? Well, I was with him the week before. Is that crazy? I have to tell you that in a minute. But, um, did you just not believe it? Or was it just like, the breath left your body? So, what happened was, you know, I get, I get some information. Somebody shoots me a text. I was like, "Oh, fake news. This is not true. This is not true." And then more media comes in. More people than people that were like, really close to him, like out in the LA area and so forth, said, "Hey, I just want to let you know that this is." And I was like, "It can't be. It can't be." It didn't hit me until like three days later. Really? Three days. I was just like, literally sleeping. And I got up in the middle of the night and I was just like, "He's gone." Because you just didn't want to believe it. You just, you just didn't want to believe it. Do you think, because obviously, you being such a close confidant of his, and I get what you mean, like time happens in life. You're not texting every single day. You're both busy guys. But you don't have to when you're great friends. You and I, even, we text a lot. But even we don't for a month or two. It's like, right. It's not personal, right? It's never personal. Like, you're busy. Hey, your success comes in. Send your thumbs up. Everybody. You, you don't have to text anybody. When they know that you're actually excited for every win they get, and every win that you get, right? Like, they, they already know you. They already know what you're there for. Now, when they do something exceptional, you're like, "Hey, I just saw what you did." Or something funny. But, yeah, exactly. I think something with him, like, because it grips so many people. Aren't even basketball fans. I think it's when someone lives so full out that when they're no longer living, the impact of that passing is greater for some reason. I mean, he was so alive. So, to make the transition from winning on the basketball court to winning in the business environment, and then he got, you got a chance to see, you know, when he was no longer that basketball player, how close he was with his family. Yeah. You know, how he supported, how he supported everyone. You know, his daughter's basketball games and the volleyball games and everything. And he was just like, he was a much more approachable person. You know, everybody used to see this rigid individual on the floor. And he was so much, he was smiling, and he was talking to other players and so forth. I always say that his next move, his next win, he had two things he wanted to do. And I have no proof of this, but just knowing his mentality. One was, he wanted his daughter to be the first female to play in the NBA. No kidding. Not the WNBA. No, the NBA. Wow. That's what he was getting. That's what he was getting her ready for. And the second one was, like, he was like, "I already own LA from a basketball standpoint. I want to erase the basketball thing. I want to own LA." No kidding. He was that driven to continue to win. Yes. Which is the theme in the book. See, let me tell you, you'd be proud of him, by the way, because I know you. There's intermittent. And I did not know Kobe well. But our daughters are playing the same volleyball league. So, the week before he passed, we were in the same gym. I remember you telling this story. Yeah. Three. It ends up these two volleyball tournaments are long, as you know. Being a volleyball game right now. But anyway, long story short, there's three dads left. It's almost 10 o'clock at night. Left in this gym. Me, him, and another dude who's a good friend of mine. And it was just striking for me. I watched this. It's the black mom, a master, is a killer, right? But I watched him. And I have no idea why it like, really struck me. I'm always evaluating. You and I talk about it. Yeah. Am I a good dad? How's your daughter? You know, like, we're always evaluating these things. And, and I watched him. Other end of the gym. I watched him with his daughter. And he's carrying the baby in his one arm. Just, uh, the game was over. And he was like, kind of just caressing his other daughter's back, just watching it. And I remember literally going, "I don't hug Bella enough. Like, I don't hug her enough." You know? And he was such, I mean, because he's a man. He's a flawed man. He was the guy. He really changed. Yes. That's something to be so proud of. Anyway, long story short, because that, to me, that's winning. Winning is improvement. Winning is growing. Winning is ultimately, he was a better man on his last day than he was in the middle of his career. Correct. Right. And when you said flawed, everybody thinks of flawed as a negative. We're all flawed, right? We are all flawed. Accept it. Use it. Learn from it. And be like, "Okay, this is of who I am. This is who I am. I'm not trying to be somebody else." What's, what's your flaws? And what makes you exceptional? That will make you different. That's what allows you to win where other people don't want to win. Is the people that can say, "Hey, we're flawed." We've both wrote bestseller books. And people won't know this about it. They know this about me. But you shared this when we were at, uh, RNT Cynic at one time. You can't spell. That's totally true. And I can't eat. That's such a great point. Yeah. Okay. Those are our flaws. And what do we do? We just laugh at them. We write best-selling books. I never thought of that. We, I got knocked out in a spelling bee. Which is in the book. And the word they asked me to spell was "ham." [Music] [Laughter] That's so awesome, dude. Yeah. That was "ham." That's so awesome. I'm crying. So, you cried on sad stuff. I cried. I just, I just, you know, I think about it, man. Like, do you say something in the book? There's all these lessons. And they're all listed like as number one. Which I like, too. He's like, "Hey, there's not 21. There's not 28. There's like, there's just an unlimited list of things." Yes. Compiled on this book. And winning. And it made me think of Kobe. Because, you know, when he walked out of the gym that day, I've said this to you too, but he had six days left to live. And I just, you know, what if the world would have, if he could just have a whisper when he got into that car with his family that night? Kobe, six days left to live. Yeah. Three days later, Kobe. Three more days. Three more days. That's Saturday prior. Kobe, one day left. You know? And the one thing I do feel like about people that win is in the book. Because Kobe was doing this to the very end. You talk about the sprint versus marathon thing on winning. Just talk about that. Because I think Kobe did that till right in the last moment. Right at the end. You know, Kobe had this great line that he used to use all the time. He goes, "Rest at the end, not in the middle." So, to me, life and winning is a bunch of sprints within a marathon. You know? That's a fact. Yeah. A bunch of sprints within a marathon. And you can't see the end line. Like in a marathon, you know, where the end line is. In winning, that win, that race may have an end line. But there's another start line right after it. Yeah. For people that are really driven. And this is just, this is not about money. And this isn't about fame. This is about, you could be winning as a school teacher. You'd be winning as an entrepreneur. You could be winning in business. You could be winning as an athlete, as a waiter, whatever it is, a waitress, whatever it is. It's that every single time you sprint to that finish line, there's another start line that's coming. And that's why it never ends. It's a marathon that just keeps going, going, and going. And I try to tell people, listen, I'm not an avid runner. I used to be in my much younger days. Not avid. I used to enjoy it. You see the times of the, the best marathons, they're running insane, insane. They say they're basically sprinting. They, they're basically, they're, they're sprinting. I think that's one of the things, Tim, that you say in the book that I think is like, super profound. Is that I think a lot of people like think there's some pacing to winning. But the truth is, there's not really pacing, is there? The best are full speed, knowing it's a long race. But it's, there's only really one gear for them. Or am I wrong about that? No, no. You're absolutely. You're absolutely. You're absolutely right. But everyone looks at the physical condition. Are you mentally prepared to sprint every single day? Are you mentally prepared to sprint every single day? And for how long? Because somebody else is sprinting. You don't want them to get what should be your win. Ends up being somebody else's win. And everyone says, "Hard work now will get you closer to that win." How many individuals have you known that you've outworked, and they got that win? Yeah, right. Winning has no loyalty to you. It has no loyalty to me. It has no loyalty to anybody. You can outwork somebody. You can outstudy them. All right. You can do all these different things. Yeah. You can apply for a job, and somebody who's less qualified ends up getting that job. So, winning has no loyalty to you. This is here it is. This is where the book is. So, I call it like, hardcore, because that's your style too. It's like, look, there's so many things in the book where you talk like that about, you know, "Hey, listen, winning doesn't care about you. Winning. Winning will lift you up and then slap you back down again, right?" There's all of these unbelievable. And I think as somebody who wants to win more, I've done some winning, who wants to win more. When you read it, if you've had any wins in your life, confirmation of truth. When you read something that you know is true, it just instantly sits on you as a fact, right? And so, here's one of the things you say in the book. You say, "Batman" all over the book. I'm highlighting and writing stuff down for people I know, for myself. I read this to Max last night about 1 AM. He goes down. So, I said, "Wake up. I'm reading Grover's book." He's like, "Bring it back with you tonight." Which I'm going to do. But you give them this one. Okay. I will give them the clean win. Thank you. "Winning requires you to be different. And different scares people. So, if you're worried about what others will say, the long-term effects, the sacrifices you make, the sleep you lose, your family being angry, I can't help you with that. There's nothing quote typical about lifestyle and choices you have to make. Winning is an insight. Winning is inside all of us. But for most, that's where it will stay trapped under a lifetime of fear and worry and doubt. The race to speak of the sprint to greatness has no rules to protect you. Nothing says you're going to lose. You're going to get. You're not going to get. Nothing says you're not going to lose. Nothing says you're not going to get hurt. You're not going to do all this work for nothing. There's no guarantee it'll be fair. Most likely, it will not be fair. You'll lose at the buzzer. You lose to someone who didn't work as hard as you did. You lose on a bad call or a bad place. Someone else will get the job. A pandemic will wipe out your season, your bank account, your career. Yet, the prize at the end of that race remains so compelling, so addictive, so gorgeous. We keep running and stumbling and sacrificing and competing to catch it." That's exactly what you're talking about, right? That's exactly what I'm talking about. You just, it's, I couldn't describe it any other way. You just look at it. It's not. Everybody said, "How many times have you heard it? It's not fair." It's not supposed to be fair. It's not. It's not supposed to be fair. Winning is not supposed to be fair. Life is not fair. There's nothing that's going to guarantee you that win. But the only thing that's going to guarantee that loss is if you don't get in this race. How many people, and you talk about this all the time, about the fears and the emotions and like, you know, just getting, just going for it, just like, here it is. Look at yourself. You've moved three different times in probably the last six months for whatever reasons you've had. All right? And you've literally packed up and moved. Like, "Here, I'm going here. I'm going here." You got people that won't move themselves out of a chair. You've literally moved families, lives, played. And there's literally a fear behind every single one of those. But there's no doubt, right? That's really well said. There was no doubt. That's really everything that you've done, and everything that I've done. There's always been a little fear. And the fear is what allows us to be like, "You know what? I'm going to throw myself over the ledge. I'm going. I'm going. I'm going to do this." But I have no doubt of what the end result is going to be. That's so amazing. You said there's a group of guys, influencers, one of them you were with this morning. About four weeks ago, you kind of went around the table, like, "What moves you?" And one guy's like, "Hey, my dreams. You know, my confidence. My this." And so, it got to me. And I think probably at that. Well, anyway, I'll just say that at that table, I kind of, I said, "Hey, I'll be honest with you. I'm still afraid." I'm still afraid. They're like, "You're afraid? You got this. You got that." I said, "No, man. I'm still afraid." And it's a real afraid. It's not something I'm trying to conjure up. It's like a real afraid that I have. However, I actually think successful people have this really unique nuance of like, tons of self-confidence combined with enough humility to want to keep working and learning. It's a really unique. We both know people that are super confident but don't have that dose of humility where they want to work hard and want to be coached, right? And then you also have the people with all the humility in the world, but they don't have the confidence, and they're not going to win either, right? You have, you coach people at all different levels. Your most successful people are your most coachable. A fact. What about when you would train Kobe? You say something in the book like, when you first met him, the first workouts or whatever, like he didn't want you to make it easy on him. He had no expectation. No, I mean, just like, "Hey, listen." And the thing that he said was unique about this when we were starting to work out. One of the reporters asked him, said, "Oh, you hired, uh, Tim Grover, Michael's training." He goes, "Well, what do you, have you, how do you feel about that, Kobe?" And I'm going to use a little language here. He goes, "I don't know. He ain't done [ __ ] for me." He goes, "I'm not going to judge him by what he did last time. I want to know what he's done, what he's done for me." We relish that. Yeah. Do you relish what Jordan told him about you? Oh, yeah. Tell him he's okay. So, the language, remember what Jordan said about you to him? Yeah. So, he just said, Kobe asked him, "What about this guy? What about..." He goes, "He really knows his stuff. But," he goes, "he's the biggest [ __ ] you'll ever meet." That's a great compliment, right? A great compliment. It's a great compliment because how many people when they're, when they meet winners, yep, fold. Yeah. They become, yes men. Yes people. Yes, exactly. And then you have to be the person that holds them accountable. And it's funny. I just, as you said earlier, I call people out. I want people to call me out on my [ __ ]. I call them out on their [ __ ]. You've done it with me before. Yeah. I have. I do. I do with everyone. And I do it not out of a place out of hate, not jealous, or anything like that. Listen, the one thing that you've offered me that no one's ever offered me is your, is that access to your jet. All right? Now, if I would have came, when I put you in check, if that was coming out of hate, that offer wouldn't be there. You know, it's coming out of love. 100%. By the way, you also have helped my son unselfishly. And by the way, never told me that you were doing it. Only through him do I find these things out that Tim does. That's what I meant by a real man. I think the winners have this thing. By the way, you should use it. Your type of person will never take me up on it. And you should. But I have to tell you guys that I think one of the things that the winners have is they lose this expectation that it's going to be easy. They lose the expectation that they're going to be liked. They lose the expectation that it's going to be perfect. Like, once you've sort of given up, you've actually surrendered the fact, "This is not going to be easy. People aren't going to like me. I am going to be judged. I am going to be disliked." It's not all that bad when it starts happening to you. And that's what winning's about. In order to win, you ha, those are all the things that are in the unforgiving race. So, you already know they're there. You know they're there. And then people are still distracted by it. You know, everything that you just mentioned is in this race. So, if you already know it's there, you know what your opponents are dealing with. You also, though, like, there's a level even past that. Like, every time I'm reading the book, I'm like, "Okay, oh, there's another level. Another level. Another level." And you articulate it. You've been up close and you're including yourself to, like, the biggest winners in in sports. So, like, there's layers to this that only someone in that type of proximity to it with no two. But I, so many people are governed like, what we're really describing right now is they're governed by their emotions. Yes. Their emotions rule their lives, right? And you talk in the book about mindset and thoughts being bigger and more important than that. So, this is so huge what he's about to share with you right now. Because right now, some of you, this, you're driving right now, or you're on a treadmill somewhere, or you're watching this on YouTube, and you're being governed by your emotions. It's literally dictating the direction of your life, your effort, your belief level, your confidence, all of it. But the highest level winners do what? Your mind has to be stronger than your feelings. Your mind has to be stronger than your feelings. Think about every poor decision you've made in your life. Gosh, there was more emotion that was involved in it than there was mind. Every single one of them. Think about it. Your feelings keep you in bed. Your mind tells you, "Get up." Think about it. Every single day, your mind is one that tells you, "Get up." And your feelings like, "An extra 30 minutes. Just roll over. Don't worry about it." Well, I, I could tell you this, every bad decision I made has been ruled by emotion. Yes. You just said that. You, and I have both. Yeah. You, and I both. You're making me. Every single one. Your mind has to be stronger than your feelings. Listen, it's not the popular decision. You are going to hurt. You are going to piss a lot of people off. Yep. All right. Are you going to piss them off for the short term? Are you going to piss them off for the long term? I've had so many individuals, athletes that I used to train back in the day, and I used to tell them, "You're not good enough to go to the NBA." You would evaluate them and be willing. I would say, "You're not good enough to." But you can make a ton of money overseas. I said, "What do you want to do?" I said, "Overseas, you can make, I said, you can literally, you could have a very long career, be extremely popular over there, live a nice lifestyle, and be successful for numerous years." Mm-hmm. Grover, you don't know what you're talking about. Okay. I'm telling you, 10 years come by, they're chasing the NBA dream. They don't make it. I run into them, and they come up to me and says, "You're the only one that told me." "You're the only one that told me." Do you think the fact that they deny this? Interesting thought. Like, you are candid with me, right? Like, I actually look at my dad was candid with me. So, maybe it's because I played sports. I don't know. But like, I look at people who are really candid and frank with me as like, that's actually real belief in love. 100%. But don't you think most people that don't win, and I'm not calling myself a winner, but I think most people that don't win don't view candor and direct feedback that way? They view it as hate, or criticism, or "You, you're, you're rooting against me." Or don't you agree? Like, I actually have very few people who are candid with me. Yeah. And those are some of my most cherished people in my life, right? Well, here's the thing. So, when's the right, when's the, when's the best time for the truth? All the time. It's the best time for the truth. All the time. The truth should lead to more action. But what does it usually do? It leads to more emotions. Wow. That's really true. So, when you tell somebody the truth, so, what's the first thing? Anybody in a relationship, you go in a relationship with, business, personal, whatever it is, the first thing they always ask me, "Honesty." Honesty is the most important. Until you're honest. So, you're honest. Yeah. Then the emotions get in, and then everything goes haywire. Then your mind still, your mind has to be stronger than your feelings. That's awesome. You, you ever work with, I'm just curious. I've never asked you this, even privately. So, let's take Kobe and Jordan. They're two physically phenomenally gifted dudes, mixed with all the things that you have in the book about winning. Like, if you want to think like Kobe Bryant, and what Tim Grover did, we're going to read the book, right? If you want to think like MJ, and the things that you learned from MJ, and then that you took to another level, read the book, right? Did you ever work with a guy? Don't say who. I know you wouldn't. But did you ever work with someone as physically gifted as either one of the two of them that just lacked these things? And so, as a result, we don't know who they are. Numerous. Really. As physically gifted, even more. Wow. Even, wow, more. They were by far not my most physically gifted athletes. I work with athletes that were jumped higher than MJ, who ran faster, who had better footwork than Kobe. But Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant were not the two most physically gifted athletes you've worked with. No. Whoa. Okay. And then, so, when you would work with these guys, and you'd be pushing them in training, there was a different resistance or fatigue, or how was it different? You know what, Ed? How many times have you had people come up to you and says, "I'll do anything to get where you're at." Right? All the time. Or, "I'll do anything to work for you." Until you, until you tell them what your definition of "anything" is. Your definition of "anything" is different than my definition of "anything." I'll have an athlete. It's very simple. When I first start with them, when I was training numerous. So, "What time's the first workout?" I'd say, "3:30." I'll be like, "Okay, it's 3:30 AM." I wouldn't tell them AM or PM until I'm 3:30. Okay. So, where's myself, my staff were sitting at, waiting. Because, you know, winning doesn't sleep. And it doesn't understand why you. Why you do that. That's awesome. So, now that we come back at, we go, "They roll in the gym about 3, 3:30." Like, "What are you doing here?" Like, "You said 3:30." "No, no. I said, you got the wrong time." And I said, "When does a new day start?" And they look at him. He goes, "No." I said, "No, the new day starts at 12 midnight. That's right. That's a new day." All right. What are you waiting for? And even if you tell them, "Hey, MJ did this. Kobe did this." If they don't have it, they don't have it. They don't have it. Do you think it's a lack of obsession? Like, you said, you've referenced a couple times, like, "Sleep at night. Your bed doesn't sleep." And all that. One of the things that I'll be honest with, there's a lot in the book that hit me. And you guys, go get the book, "Winning." Tim Grover. Real simple. Get it anywhere books are sold. But there's this part of the book, man, like it almost made me cry audibly reading it. But I did get water in my eyes. And I get water even explaining it to you. Where you're talking about being asleep, and that you get these visitors at night. And I know those visitors very, very well. I have them too. It's attached to my obsessions. And I don't think, I don't think the average person who wants to really win understands the extent and degree of obsession required. They don't. So, can you elaborate on that? Visitors that you get at night? Everybody thinks obsession is a bad word. It's not. I love to use the people. You're a great example, Ed. Why? Why keep going? Look at the house. Not only this house, the other house, and the other house, and the plane. And if people pay very close attention to what was just said, probably about 20 minutes ago, what did you say? "I don't consider myself a winner." That's obsession. That's obsession. And I'd love to use your plane story as an example. You went from a very nice-sized plane to even a bigger plane. But it's still not just a 747, right? That's true. It's not your 747. All right. That's an obsession. That's a healthy obsession. That's what gets you out of bed. That's what allows you to, when you get out of bed, when all the skeletons are lined up next to you and telling you, "You can't do this. You're not able to do this. You're not able to do this." You get up every single morning and you shake their hands and give them a hug and say, "Yep. What do you got for me tonight?" Exactly. I got you. Because you're a part. You're a part of me. You're a part of me. And people put some. It's funny. Winners bring all of them wherever they go. And most individuals, the best part of them, the thing that allows them to win, the thing that allows them to be obsessive, the thing that allows them not to care what other people think, the things that allow them to deal with hatred, the things that keep them going when nothing else will, they keep in their closets. The best part of them. They keep in there because they're worried, "What are people going to think about me if I let those things out?" Don't I? I always say this, all right? No. Everyone says, "I'm afraid to become that person." Yeah. You should be more afraid not to become that person. Be afraid not to become that person. You, you're a big thing about, you know, "Meet, uh, I want to, where at the end of the journey." You know, "I want to meet my better half, or say, 'Hey, did what did you leave behind?'" Or was like, "Hey, this is the person." Shake hands with them. Shake hands with them. If you can't become that person, you're never going to be able to shake that person's hand. Yeah. I'd much rather. I live in more fear of, I live in way more fear of not becoming that person than I am about not trying to be him. Big time. But I do have, I want to stay on this for a minute. I get these visitors at night too that you get. So, I don't want people to think that winning is all like rosy and glory and beautiful. It's nothing. It's, it's really not. And I'm not even. You have to know this. Here's the real. Never said this on the show. You have to really know these truths so that you can actually decide you still want to win. Yes. Right? Because what does come with becoming this way? Now, at 50, and you're 56. Or 56. 56. You look great. I've had 50 years of having these visitors in my life. And they're not going away yet. They're not. That's what everybody wants to do. People just want to sweep them under the rug. They want to keep them in the closet. They don't want to talk about them. What makes you successful? That's what makes you. That's what makes you special. That's what makes you different. And what do we say? Different scares people. Winners and winning scares people. And they don't want to win because of that. They're trying to win. They're trying to balance. They're trying to fit in. What do winners do? Very few of them have balance in their life. Maybe after they become successful, they try to balance a little bit more. All right. There is no balance early. They don't care what other people think. They're extremely obsessive. They know it. And they don't mind telling you that they're chasing the next win because that's what fuels them. But when you, people come to you say, "You've had enough. You've had." You know, "Why? Slow down. Slow down. Unwind." I don't know about you. I do know about you. I should say that. We are at our most uncomfortable when people tell us to unwind. We like to be wound up. We like that. That's like a part of that. We have our, we have our unique ways of unwinding. We don't need anybody to tell us to unwind. Yep. My favorite way of unwinding is having some tequila with a buddy of mine who's another winner and talking about doing more winning. What I was on Andy's show, and I said, "Winning is more fun than fun is fun." I remember that. And I just really believe that. Like, that's actually what I like. Like, I like the pursuit of winning. I like the, I like. I sincerely don't feel that way about myself because I'm scared. If I did, like, I'm scared of these visitors that I have. They're my fears, my worries, my hopes, my thoughts, my skeletons. Yeah. You know, they take all those forms. They take all those forms. And you don't know what form they're going to take that night. And you know what? They're going to sit at you with the table. They're all. They're not going to. I put this in a book. When, when you travel, those skeletons are traveling with you on the plane. They're my constant companion all the time. And if you notice, everyone looks at you and you fly on that plane alone. I've said, "Ed's never been on that plane alone." It's true. It's true. He's never been on that plane alone. They're with me all the time. All the time. And you know what? When they look at his tequila bottles on the thing, and they're finished, that's because they're drinking the best stuff. Also, I wonder, he was drinking all that stuff, man. Stuff gets expensive. I just love this because this is the realest conversation I've ever had about really winning. And it's the realest book about it. Like, like, it's, I don't, this isn't one of these Pollyanna things. Like, it's not all rosy. No. There's a lot of it that sucks. And like, unless you want to sign up. And by the way, I don't know if you really, I'm actually cool if you don't. Like, if you actually said, "Hey, I don't want all that stuff. I don't want." I mean, I don't relate to you. I'm not going to hang out with you. You're not my kind of people. But I'd actually admire somebody who says, "I won't do these things that are in this book, and I know I'm not going to win." Rather than say, "I want to win and do none of the things that are in the book." The people that can admit it, they've already won. The people that said, "This, this ain't for me. This ain't for me." They're saying they, they know exactly who they are. I'm good. I'm good. If you, most people will settle for good. Most people will settle for okay. All right. Very few people will settle for great. Very few people will settle for unstoppable. Very few people will settle for winning. I break things down three different ways. So, look at this. And I'd even put this in a book, but I want to share. I want to share this with you. You have individuals that compete. Everybody competes. You know, you know, you play golf. You love golf. Sure. You know, you go out and, uh, your golfing partner, I don't know what's his real name. Your real name is Kelly Gwyn. We call him Richard Dick Cabeza. Is "head" in Spanish. Everyone that's wondering what that's his name because half the people don't know that's his name. Richard Cabeza. Everybody knows him. He's going to be signing autographs. He goes, "I love you with my Latin man. Can I get your?" Is that people take pictures with them? That's awesome. You know? So, and I'll get into it a little bit later about that. But there's people that compete. All right. There's p. Everybody knows how to compete at something. All right. And for most people, when they compete, they want to get to the, they want to just finish. That's their win. They just want to finish. All right. Now, to me, if you're that level person, is that finish going to lead to another win? It might not be. It might be in something else. If you're going to run a marathon, all right, and you're not one of these top elite marathoners, you're not going to win the marathon, right? You're not going to win. But you have a mindset to say, "Hey, I'm going to finish this marathon." Now, is that when you finish that marathon, what else is it setting you up for? But there's people that go in there, they're just happy. They're just happy competing. They're just happy finishing. They're just happy to be in the race. Then you have people that win. All right. Once they win, once. Yeah. And how many individuals do you know, and you probably don't, well, I shouldn't say this, I said, "You know, not associate." Where there's a big difference that keep telling you about that win over and over again, no matter how long it's been? Gosh, factoid. All right. I got it, man. You were quarterback in high school. Yes. I got it. Yeah. You got your masters. So, you got it. I got it. All right. Then you have individuals that win at winning. That's really good. They win at winning. So, they win over and over and over again. You think it's, you think it's all it's cracked up to be? No. But we don't know any other way. Best answer of all time. Very similar. Everybody. We just, we don't know any other way. Best answer of all time. We just, we can't accept. We can't accept it any other way. We just can't. I wrote a bestselling book. Crap. I didn't have to do another book. You wrote a bestselling book, right? You know, you have another bat. You have another book coming out. You don't. You don't have to do any of this. But if you didn't, that would be more detrimental to you. You don't know. You don't know any other. You don't know any other way. Yeah. You just, you just don't. You think that, uh, by the way, I'm loving this, just so you know, because I know people that might be listening to, "Hey, this is a little bit dark." Like, um, "Welcome to winning." Like, that's why you see so many people. I watch Nick Saban after he wins these national championships. He's gotten a little bit better at it the last couple years. Have you noticed this? Yeah. Just a little bit. Like, one percent better. You know what his hit? Either his wife or somebody in his family at least smile for the interview after, right? We can get back to work tonight. But you watch these prolific winners. So, I did love to watch MJ celebrate that win in the evening that he won, right? Or, you know, the few times I saw Kobe actually celebrate the win. But I know the next day they're back to work. I watch Saban and like, for years, he'd win these national championships, and you could already see the grimace on his face for the next year in the post-game interview. Yes. Right? And like, I think people look at, they go, "Well, then is he?" And I think, to your answer, you're right. Like, people say, "Well, is he really enjoying this?" Yes. And he knows no other way. So, maybe it's not all. I wonder if you ask, "Is it all it's cracked up to be?" I think some people might say no. But it's all I know. And it's better than the alternative of living with losing the rest of my life, or not trying. Yes. Right? There's a reason it's lonely at the top. And it's not because you want to be surrounded with other individuals. That's not the part. People, when they talk about it, it's lonely. Lonely at the top. It's alone because nobody understands what's going on in here. Of what you went through after you've just won. And you're already thinking about the next. You're already thinking about the next one. People can't comprehend that. And there's people whispering in your ear, and they're saying, "Enjoy it. Enjoy." By the time they say, "Enjoy it," you did enjoy it. Now you're already thinking. Yeah. Do you think it's that? I'm just thinking right now. I'm asking you this because you watched this and you've done it in your own life. Like, you've, you, you've had two careers. You've had a career where you helped, which you still do, where you help other people win. And then there became this point in your life where you became, you were individually winning as a speaker, as a coach, as a writer. It's an interesting thing to watch with you. You were the behind-the-scenes guy. Then you weren't the behind-the-scenes guy. Do you think that it's like a dopamine thing? Like, when they win, like they're already, they have to get another one? Like a me, like it's an addiction? Do you think winning becomes an addiction? It is an addiction. And the only place where you can get that high again is the black market in your mind. It's the only place because you only know where that entrance is. You only know where that hit is. You only know what that drug. You only know what that drug is. And here's the crazy part. The next win has to be bigger. It has to be bigger. It has to be bigger. It has to constantly keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So true. It sounds like a sickness when you're listening to this. But I actually think it's beautiful. I actually think you were born to win. And you learn over a lifetime how not to. As a child, "Don't do this. Sit down. Be a good boy. Get in your place. Do this." Then the world starts treating you. And I think you move further and further away from your own nature. I think we were born to win. We were born to do something great with our life. I really. I know that's a saying to me. And I feel a sadness when I meet somebody who's accepted a life of not winning. By the way, I'm cool with it. It's okay. I'm not judging you. But as someone who wants to pursue that expression of myself, or that, I just wonder what I would be like, you know, if I could, what it would be like, what I would be like if, if I could get to the next level. I'm fascinated with, like, I think.

The people that I really like enjoy are there are curious people. Like, I want the next experience. I don't want to live in the previous experience. Like that guy was like, "Hey, you know, I made a million dollars in 2009 and it was like in the mortgage boom or with a crash or whatever." Yeah, I'm not really interested in living in those, in those times. You're not. Because it's always about, it's always about what's next. It's always about constantly staying in the range. It's constantly about changing your mindset.

The language of winning for people that win is completely different than the language of winning from other individuals. No, you sit here and you talk to people and they describe the. When I talk to all my athletes, I said, "Describe winning in one word to me." And everybody would think about, you know, they would be like, "It's happy. It's, you know, it's euphoric. It's all those things." And it is. But the constant winners, their answers were, "It's unpolished. It's uncivilized. It's nasty. It's hard. It's dirty. It's unforgiving." And then Kobe comes up and says, "It's everything. It's everything."

And if you think about it, and very few people are genuine about this, all right? And you know, the ones that are, you know, the ones that aren't. How do you feel when somebody's really close to you and they win? It's an unbelievable feeling. Unbelievable feeling. How do you feel when you win? It's an unbelievable feeling, even though it's short-lived. How do you feel when your kids win? It's unbelievable. Yeah. All right. That feeling is everything. It is everything. That feeling is everything. It's amazing.

You just said that. I'm reading the book last night and I called my wife about halfway through the book. Because when you read your work, you know, even in the first book, most con, you talk about in this book, the most controversial part of the first book was the dark side. Yes. You talk about it in this book. And then when you're reading this, you're like, "This winning thing is mean. This winning thing is unforgiving. This winning thing doesn't give a [ __ ] if you sleep. This winning thing doesn't care." Right? Like you go through, like, [ __ ] this is almost. And I, and if, if you're not careful, guys, you would think because this is truth, it flies in the face of everything you always hear, but you would, you would think that it's not something that you really want.

And the evidence of it, I said to my wife last night, I said, "The evidence that, you know, winning is where you belong is how happy you are when you see your children doing it." If you have children, when your children win a spelling bee or get straight A's or hit a home run or win a golf tournament or do anything exceptional, the amount of joy you feel and pride when they win. I have a feeling that that's how God feels when he sees one of his children win. And I think this is something we all miss. That it is a grind. It is difficult. But if you ever wonder whether you belong winning and that's the path you should pursue, just ask yourself a question about your children, if you have them, or your parents, or anybody that you love and care about. When they win, how do you feel for them?

I literally said this last night. So I've heard you speak numerous times. And what people don't know about this, like when we're on the stage together at this, at the same event, I'll stay just to hear you speak. Vice versa, as you know. You know, I will stay. The last time I heard you speak was at an event, and you were talking about a golf tournament. You were with, with your son, with Max. Yeah. With Max. That's an intense story. Yeah. It was. It landed from playing golf to winning. Yes. That was the decision. Like, to your point, like your book. And by the way, I've said this earlier in the interview, little words from people, a caring statement, a little bit of access to some information. People. And I've said this many times, just haven't said it to you, but like, I thank you. Because, you know, I've had people say, "Oh, your son gets all your stuff." And yeah, he also has talked to Grover. He's also talked to Grover. And just so you guys know, I really truly believe that one of the reasons that my son is excelling is you and your information. Little whispers, you get a little direct message, a little text message, a little access to a call, like you've done for my son. And I think that's the other thing that people don't know. Winners are generous. Extremely generous. Extreme. You know why? Because they're truthful. They tell you how it is. It's not, it's not rainbows. It's not unicorns. It's not sprinkles. This is what it takes. This is what it takes. And other people, they'll, they don't want to. We talk about the stuff nobody else wants to talk about. But does that make us bad people? In many people's eyes, it does. But also, we're the few people that are going to hold you accountable. We're going to tell you the truth. And where people are going to say, you know what, everybody else sugarcoated it. These individuals told me exactly how it is. That's what the book Winning is about.

Now, I don't want people to think that it's all this thing. If you read the last chapter of the book, yeah. All right. It kind of ties everything in and it explains why winners go through this journey. Yep. Why they go through this journey. Because I have this thing. It's like, everyone talks about it's the journey. It's journey. It's not the destination. Well, to me, why the hell are you taking the journey if you don't know where the hell the destination is? What are you just aimlessly going to be running around? All right. Every time when you get on your plane or you get in your car, you know exactly you're going from here there. Now, you may have to take a detour to go somewhere else to do whatever you're doing, but you're like, "This is where we're going." You had a post a couple of days ago, man. It's nice to own a jet because all of a sudden I got to go wherever, wherever your destination was. Yeah. By the way, it could be the most enjoyable flight in the world, but if I end up at the wrong place, complete waste of time. And I'm pissed off. Yeah. This notion that it's the journey and that destination is maybe the biggest pile of BS in the history of the world. I want to, you know, the journey, enjoy it if you can, but the bottom line is, you better get to the destination. You got to know what they're doing. You got to know what the, you got to know at the destination.

I was coaching all these guys the other day on uh, haters. And yeah, he was so obsessed with this crap, right? Like, what are they thinking about me? And I'm like, "Let me tell you guys the truth." It was, it was our day group. I said, "Here's the deal. They are right if you lose. So you better win. So if you don't win, everything they said was true." And you could have hung up the car. I mean, you have to get to the destination. That's it. That's the whole point of this, right? If you don't get to the winning destination, most of what they said was true. And the reason it bothers you so much is you're afraid you might not get to the destination and they're going to be right. And right. And it's what we talked about. Instead of the fear, you're, you're going to have that fear, but there should be no doubt. I'm getting to that destination. It's not a straight line. I don't, it's never going to be a straight line.

Listen, this thing drives me absolutely crazy. And I just, like, oh, when people put this out there, "Five steps to this, ten step." How many steps have you taken in your lifetime, Ed? Unlimited amounts. And the new ones are revealed all the time. All the time. And sometimes you can't even see that. Yeah. All right. And do you always get to walk up those steps? No. Sometimes you got to crawl up those steps on your hands and knees. It's just. And then just when you get to the top, you get pushed right, you get pushed right back down. It's not easy. It is not easy. And sometimes, Tim, when I get to that step, like the next one's revealed to me that I had no idea existed. Exactly. It's funny you say this because I'm writing my book right now and I'm like, I want to put steps in, like 21 of these. I actually said in the be, in the book, I don't know that I'm going to do it that way yet, but I literally was saying to our publisher, I'm like, "As long as I'm allowed to say these aren't in exclusivity, here's 21 particular steps or 19 particular steps." But there's going to be 99 million more. And a couple more things because, like, we're flying by, dude. Like, I, we should have done the three-hour Rogan like we were talking about. But by the way, the amount of tequila that we'll consume in those three hours would make it even more interesting to listen to the two of us.

But here's something. I have a good fortune and so to you that at this stage of our lives, we're around other winners. Yes. So there's. We choose that. What's that? It's a choice we make, right? It's a choice we make. Okay. That's interesting. You say it's a choice. It's a choice we make. We have very little tolerance for people that can't get that information. When you tell about, hey, listen, about the haters, you got to get to the winning deaths, otherwise they're going to be right. How many times do you have to say that over and over and over again? You're just like, "What's really good is you give me permission." Because sometimes I try to, I fancy myself a lover of humans, right? And I do. I love people. And and it's why I do this. Yet, I sometimes find myself thinking that I'm judgmental of people when I do get uncomfortable around someone that doesn't share that proclivity to want to grow and win. You know what I'm saying? I almost feel judging by, like, "Man, no, I should just like this dude." No.

So you'll sit here and I do this all the time. When people come up and say, you know, and they'll say something, and I'll just look them outside. I don't understand. I just, like, they have a thought process. You just sit there and you just, it's not a winning mentality. It's just like, you'll sit there and you just, you're so, you're so perplexed by what you're just like, "I don't, I don't understand." That doesn't happen to me, right? It's just like, "This is like, really?" Yes. Yeah. You're like, "Really?" Yeah. And and those are the individuals you try to like, okay, no matter how you sum them up, how you explain to it, where they, they just can't. They're the, "Yeah, but" person. "Yeah, I got that." "But." "Yeah, but you don't know my situation." "Yeah, but you don't know this." "Yeah, but." "Yeah, but." "Yeah, but." I'm like, "No, there's no butt. Like, you got a big old butt for a reason. You need to get rid of that big butt. There's no butt. This is the way it is. I don't understand what you're talking about." And I, this is a different version of me, even sometimes for the audience, when I'm around you, because like, I, I just feel like the real is the real, right? But when you start, you say something so awesome in the book amongst tons of awesome things. But I do have access to people like yourself that are friends of mine now that make me feel normal. As you said, a lot of people responded that way to Relentless and they're going to respond that way to Winning. And just pick their brains and associate with them. And then your thermostat setting goes up. All the stuff I teach. But when I started, I didn't. And you, you talk about this in here about, I felt initially, and I think a lot of people are like, "You know what? I'm going to choose winning. I'm going to read this book. I'm going to follow your podcast religiously. And I'm going to choose to win." When you make that decision, you have decided to leave a pack. And probably initially feel very alone. Yes. Right? And this is something not talked about. And I think a lot of people, we're so used to being in packs. We're in classrooms. We're in, you know, we're on teams in life. In classrooms, we're always in groups. I'm a Democrat. I'm a Republican. I'm a this. I'm a that. It's all tribes and groups. But when you decide to win, you have separated from most groups. And you may not know yet, especially if you're new to it, other people as crazy as you, right? And this re, you do this thing about reframing loneliness into mental dominance. Can you talk, like, I love that phrase, mental dominance too. So talk about that.

Excellence and winning is lonely. Success is lonely. All right. Can you separate yours? Can you separate yourself? So you could be standing next to another individual and winning who says, "Points at you and doesn't point to you." You and you. All right. Are you willing to say, "Hey, winning has just noticed me." And now, what did you do for winning to say, "You know what? I got a little interest in you. I don't have any interest in the rest of you folks. I got a little, I got a little interest in you." Because what do we say? Winning keeps his hands in his pocket because it doesn't want to point to the wrong person. It doesn't want to acknowledge the wrong individual. All right. So when acknowledging says, "Come here. Let me tell. Let me talk to you." All right. "No, no, no. I don't want to talk to them. I just, I need you to come alone." This is the journey. This is the path. This is what you're going to have to do. This is who you're going to say. This is who you're going to have to separate yourself from. All right. Are you interested? And you can't think about it. Are you willing to come through this door knowing, I, you have no idea what's on the other side of the door. You have no idea what's on the side of that door. And once that door closes, you can't go back. Most people be like, "I'm not willing to." I'm not willing to do that. But the wins are so available. And people, I don't know when winning got such a, I don't even know the word I'm looking for. It's just like, it be, it became a, like it became a bad thing where people were obsessed with. And I'll go back to you on this. You play in, you play golf on a regular basis. All right. You compete in tournament things. Yes. Are you just in them? Are you there to win? I'm there to win. I'm there to win. Yep. I love watching golf interviews with the guys like, "Yeah, you know, I'm excited. I've made the top ten." I'm like, Tiger Woods would literally throw up if he ever said that audibly out loud in his life. Right? Like, "I'm not, I, I like, even for me in golf, and I know this is true for you and your fitness, you and I talk about our fitness a lot. It's like, listen, I am, I'm not Michael Hearn. Neither are you, right? I'm in golf. I'm not Phil Mickelson. But I'm going to, this is no pun, I'm, I'm going to max out my opportunity at my level to compete. And then when I get to that level, I'll go to the next level. Not enough people win where they are right now. Like if you want to be an entrepreneur and you're an employee somewhere right now, win as an employee right now. Right? Dominate where you are. If you're a high school athlete and you're watching this and you've got aspirations to play major league baseball, dominate and win where you are right now. And I, that builds the habit of winning, the addiction of winning, the biochemistry of winning in our lives. And this idea that you're going to be lonely, like accept it. Like, I, I have just accepted in my life that especially when I was new, that I was going to have to have that. And I think a lot of times people think that they can't deal with that isolation. Right? And and I love. So when people follow you on all your social media platforms, Instagram and every, every everything else. All right. They see the beautiful house. They see the cars. They see the, they, they see everything. How big is this house? This one's uh 7,500. 7,500 square feet. All right. How many people are in this house right now? There are four of us, which is more than usual. Where's your wife? She's at the other house in the desert. Where's your son? He is, he's at that, he's playing in a golf room, but he's at that house too. Where's your daughter? They're there. There's three of them there. Do I need to say anything else? You're in this house. [Music] Chasing your next win. Yep. Me and you. Yeah. And I would rather be, I can't wait to see them later tonight, but right now, I would rather be nowhere else on planet Earth than talking to you about this topic right now. There it is. Yeah. That's a fact. So we're going to run out of time. We're probably already on time. Probably my editor is going to kill me for this, but it's just, it's too good. So I want to talk about two more things. One is grit versus glamour. So social media world, there's a lot of glam out there about winning. And even in the sports world now, like a lot of these rookies get these big deals. And so you're instantly seeing guys sign for significant cash. And I think the, the appearance of it is that it's glamour. Um, it's one thing I've kind of always admired about Brady, even though I probably overly talk about Brady, is that he messages grit a lot. He shows grit a lot. That's almost counterculture now, the grit piece of it. So talk a little bit about grit versus glamour with social media out there now. Everybody can, it's easy to glamorize something you don't even have. Yep. You can fake it. You fake it so much. You know, that's uh, social media is. Listen, the fake is the new real. It really, fake is the new real. It really, it really is. It really is. You can't fake the grit. Everybody will know if you fake the grit. You just can't. You just can't.

What is grit to you? All right. Grit to me is something inside of you that just allows you to push forward and allows you to block everything out and continue to say, "I'm going to do this. I'm going to, I'm going to do this." What I like to parlay grit with is the grind. Everybody always talks about their grinding, their grinding, their grinding. Well, here's the thing. If you just continue to grind, you're going to end up with dust. What are you grinding for? What are you trying to form with that grit? What are you trying to form with that grind? You take an ice sculpture. All right. It starts, it's a square or circle, whatever it is. And they take away the pieces to form whatever it may be. Are you grinding and gritting for that to whatever shape that's going to look to you for you? Was that what winning looks like to you? And it's different for every, for each individual. Your definition of winning may be completely different than somebody else's definition of winning. Your grit has to determine what winning means to you. And it could be completely different than anybody, than anybody else. I understand why you do the things you do. I get it. When Ed does something, I was like, "I get it." There's no judgment behind it. I totally, I totally understand. That's your win. All right. The people that don't understand your win, don't understand your grit, don't understand your grind, are like, you know what, why? Why? It's not, it's not for you to know why. It's only important for you to know why. Right? And your why is so different than everybody else. Grit is tied into all that. It's called, it's tied into your identity. And it connects with your why because your grit may be completely different than somebody else's. That's somebody else's grit. But the glamour is never going to be real unless you go through the grit and the grind. It's just not. It's just, it's always going to, it's always going to be fake. It's really good for me if it's, if it's something that's measurable. Winning's first. Yeah. That's it. It's first. So if it can be measured, it's first. If I'm not first, I lost. And then you look at it, you know, people, you take it personal when you put information out there and you don't reach the numbers, of course, that you're like, and you're like, you don't blame this, that you like, you know what, what did I do in this? 100 me. What, what didn't I do? What could I have done better? All right. And then there's, there's a healthy ego behind that with both of us because that's confidence. To me, if you just, there's an unhealthy ego or the people that just talk. And there's a healthy ego that produces results. And every individual needs to have a healthy, confident ego that produces the results that show. 100%.

So when Max, Max putts, for example, I teach this with a lot of my athletes. So, um, you know, guy misses a putt in golf, it's like, I, soccer, I can't potter, I missed the read. I said, "Max, you see what you said earlier about no doubt? You should expect to win." Not the type of expectation that you believe that it's afforded to you or that it's your right, but an expectation that that's where you're going. And I taught, I teach a lot of my athletes this, but especially when it comes to golf. You miss that putt, I want you to say, "That's not like me. That's not me because I make putts." Right? And so for me, I'm surprised when I, I'm not winning because I expect to win. Something so like, "Whoa, what happened here?" Whereas most people, they're surprised when they do win. I don't believe Michael Jordan was shocked ever when he won a championship. Am I right about that? 100%. Yeah. Wade, Kobe. There was no shock when they got there. But most people, like, "I won!" And they act like they've never been there before, right? When I watched Michael win that first championship, everybody that watched was like, "He's gonna win another one. Yeah. He's doing another one." It didn't look like it. It didn't look like that was it. I remember Brady when he won the first, he was kind of like, "Whoa." Kind of like this. And then you watched him come back the next year and you're like, "These guys are going to win multiple championships." And I'm just curious with you, brother. I'm almost done. But I'm watching you and I'm just, I'm proud of you. Thank you. What an interesting life. Like, I know the story. If you guys saw my first show with Tim, that when you couldn't get through it, that story of the cab ride with your dad. Just to think of this little boy whose dad's like, "Well, we're gonna walk to where we're going." But his dad didn't have the money to pay the cab fare to get them to where they were going. And you carrying your little bags down the street as a little boy. Right? And just to think that that little guy ends up. I mean, the Last Dance was about Michael Jordan, but if it wasn't about anybody else, to me, when I'm watching, maybe because you're my friend, it's like a lot to do with Grover too, man. Like, like you've become this icon in that space. You've, you've literally arguably worked with the best of all time at something. And you came here carrying your bags down the street. Then you go, "Let me give you more." Then you go from doing that, Tim, to you're like, "All right, I'll write a book." All right. You can't spell. You sell a million copies. I know you very well. You're extremely introverted, private man. You're like, "Now I'm going to speak on stages in front of large feet, large groups." And then afterwards, I'm going to meet a bunch of people one-on-one and interact with them socially. I know you, brother. Then you dominate at that. Right? And then you become friends with people like myself, who we cherish the friendship with you, even when it's from a distance. Now you got this book out. This one's gonna sell three million copies or whatever the heck it's gonna do. Are you proud of you? I'm more proud that you're proud of me. I surround myself with the best. I'm sitting here with the best. It's brother. Cheers. Well, I've now got Grover to cry three times. So I, that's got to be a Guinness World Record. Oh, I am proud of you. And, um, and so my view, every time I see, because I know for people look at you and they see, he's got everything. And I look into you and see, what's next? I know you do. And I, I feel that from you. And I also, from having worked with who you've worked with and who you are, you're under no illusion that like, I'm like, super at peace all the time, you know? In fact, most of the time, you're like, "You okay? What's going on? What's wrong?" I saw something there. You feeling all right? What's going on? Yeah. You, you get it. And, uh, you need to have people in your life like this, guys, who, um, will tell you the truth, but also don't buy into any of your BS about everything being rosy all the time. And you've been a really important person to me. Molly regret, like seeing you today, it's like, I, and Sherry, who's off camera, it's like, I just wish I saw them more often. Yeah. You know? And Sherry, obviously, is credited with helping write this book. It says right in there, Sherry too. So I just, first off, everybody needs to get this book. It's, it's this is very simple. Okay? This is a topic very rarely discussed truthfully. Very simple. So there's topics out there where people discuss, you know, neuroscience in your brain or, you know, how to grow your self-confidence. These are things. And there's some good books on it. The topic of winning. I started reading the book, just listening to some of his power podcast episodes. He'll explain, he has all those guests on there. Thank you. But this is, this is distilled down into something you can carry with you as a companion with truths in it. And people that you and I both know, I just want to say this, that have started reading it, that I'm texting. It's just like, "That's true. That's true. That's true. That's true. That's true." And it's things that, you know, it's taken you 56 years to acquire and accumulate. It's taken me 50 years of my life to acquire and accumulate some of these things. And, and the fact that you're imparting new things onto me means anybody in their journey to wanting to win, that's not quite as far down that road, needs to have this because it's going to help you. And hopefully today's interview did as well. So cheers, brother. Thank you for today. Thank you. I knew we would do magic again. Yes. I knew we would. And to all of you guys out there, listen to me. Go get this book. And please share this conversation. If you have anyone in your life, anybody who's interested in winning, this is the show you need to be sharing with them right now. This episode of this show can absolutely make an impact in their life. And he jokes in the book about every show's life-changing, every show's epic. And it's not. I believe in every show that I put out. And that's why I always tell you guys that I believe it can make an impact in your life. But some of them are right to the heart of what I know you truly want. And I know you truly want to win. And I know today can help you do that. So I just want to say to everybody, share the show. God bless you. And max out. Hey guys, thanks for sticking around. If you'd like more, click the videos right here. They're exactly what you need to see next. And if you're new here, hit subscribe and become a part of the Max Out community. And tell me what you think about the videos in the comments below. I read all of them every week. And I select winners that get all kinds of prizes, gear, coaching calls with me. Make a comment.