Transcription
Hi, Tucker. Good to see you. Good to see you. Thank you. Hey, I love this place. So, you got to before we start all this like heavy stuff, it's not going to be a heavy interview, but before we talk about some real issues in the world, explain to me where am I?
Oh, this is just our family barn. When I got fired, and my Fox studio was also in this building. But when uh I got fired a couple of years ago, I thought, let's just work in the actual family part of the barn. stopped wearing makeup, stopped doing all the participating in the pretenses of television. And um and there's all kinds of stuff from I don't think I've bought anything in this room. It's all like family stuff. It's like nowhere else to put it.
Got to give me a tour afterwards. But um speaking about Fox, it's been over 2 years. Yes. Since they fired you. Yeah. So could you walk me through how that process happened? cuz people kind of found out like yeah Tucker got fired and people were so upset but we didn't really know how it happened. Is that is that a secret?
I don't know what happened. I still don't know. I mean I have all kinds of theories and I don't have that much interest really in finding out what actually happened. And of course as with so many things it's impossible to really know the truth. Uh I think but um no I had no indication anything was wrong. I was always, you know, in regular contact with the Murdochs who I worked for for many years, many years, over 20 all in. And um they never suggested there was a problem. I had just talked to them. And then one Monday morning, I got a call from the president of the company, Suzanne Scott, who said, "We're taking your show off the air." And I said, "Why?" And she said, "We're not going to get into that." And I obviously argue. I wasn't really mad. I was so confused. Um but I wasn't angry. And but I did push very hard on like, well, why don't you just tell me now? We just want you to sign a statement saying it was mutual. Obviously, I'm not going to do that because it wasn't. But on some deeper level, it I'm so grateful. So, I've never attacked Fox. I'm not going to attack Fox. I think they're playing, that said, I think they're playing a really poisonous role right now. Um, and not just Fox, but the New York Post and the Wall Street Journal who are basically publishing things that are completely untrue and deranged for an audience of one because they know that the president watches Fox, which he does, and reads the New York Post and hears about the Wall Street Journal. And so, they're pushing him toward war relentlessly.
Absolutely. Relentlessly. And and I and I definitely resent that uh very much. And I think it's dangerous. I don't understand the motive for it really. From my perspective, I'm not mad that I'm not there. I like some people at Fox and I'm still in contact with them. Like, I just don't have any bitterness at all. I I had a great time. They were super nice to me. I did what they asked me to do, which is get good numbers. And I feel like I upheld my part of the bargain. And by the way, they upheld theirs. They they paid me out. Like they they were like attacking me on background, you know, for the first couple of weeks. And I just called him up and I said, "Do you really want to do that? You know, I've been here so long. Like, I know everything. Do you really want to have that?"
And they just went quiet afterwards. Oh, great. They're like, "Yep, you're right. We'll stop." You know, they had their little PR super unhappy PR lady like telling people on background I was a racist, you know, racist. Okay. Which I'm not, by the way. I would happily admit it, but I'm not. I'm a Christian. And yeah, so I just said, "Hey, maybe you don't do that or else I'll I'll respond." And I don't really see who the winner of that fight is. Do you?
You're mad at very reasonable about it. And they have been very reasonable with me since. So, I'm not mad at them at all about the way they treated me. And I really mean that. But, um, what they're doing pushing neocon foreign policy is one of the craziest things I've ever seen. And it's having an effect. Unfortunately, the only thing I'll say about this is like they have a guy there who's a weekend host who, you know, I'm not saying he's evil, but he's obviously terrible on television. Whoa. And when I worked there, all the years I worked there, he was like, no one watched that show and no one this guy's nothing to do with Fox.
Why? I know who you're talking about and they elevated him to this position. So why is it because viewers are like desperate to hear from this person? Of course not. The point is they think that he influences the president and makes the president more hawkish specifically uh in the Middle East and Eastern Europe. And like why would you want that? I don't understand. And we're very close to blowing up the world. We're close to a global war. Very close closer than we ever been in my lifetime. Why would you want that? I don't I think it's completely evil is what I think. You know, that actually brings me to my next question. You're somebody who's I know you don't think of yourself like Brave, but you're somebody who's been speaking truth way before you get ever got fired. Like you started speaking truth way before that. You must have lost some friends when you started doing that.
Well, I've lost so many friends. Uh yeah, I've lost a lot of friends and I've particularly in the Israel question. Um I've never talked about Israel. I'm not a hater of Israel. certainly not a hater of Jews. Always had a million Jewish friends. I still do have some. Um, but Netanyahu is really hurting the United States and the world. It's completely out of control. And I have, you know, for years not said anything about it. I've thought that for a very long time, over 20 years, 25 years. And um, so I've always had that view, but I've kept it to myself cuz it's not worth it. And then but we've been pushed so hard and used so much by him that it's just terrible for the country that I I grew up in. And so I've said something and you know you do that and people you really like had dinner with and really liked are all of a sudden denouncing you as a Nazi or whatever and I never wanted that and it makes me sad now.
Yeah. I I would say friends who denounce you as Nazi for your honest opinion are not really friends. I think that I think that's right. And I haven't I I should say I've lost one real friend in the past 10 years, one actual friend. And I and I feel it's painful for me and it wasn't about Israel, but we just diverged politically and he could not be friends with me. So that makes me sad. But in general, people you lose are people I really liked were great. I had meals with, hilarious, interesting, nice people actually, most of them. But they were not real friends. That's true. And you know how I like to look at this stuff because I've been through the same thing. Not to the to the level that you have obviously, but you don't lose anybody, Tucker. They lose you. When they lose a friend who is sincere and wants to do well, you don't lose friends. They lose you.
I I think that I mean, I don't know if not, you know, hanging out with me is any great loss, but um no, in general, like think about this. You like even if it's not Tucker Carlson, you have a friend, right? and he's sincere about something and you're like, "Oh, I don't want your sincerity and your thoughts." And like, I lose a person who's honest. Like, he doesn't lose me. Like, no, I think that's right. And I have no grounds to whine about any of it because I have the closest inner world of anybody I know. And I mean that. And yes, I am bragging. And I have a lot of kids and they're spouses and we have a very big family and we have a big staff and they're the same people I worked with at Fox. they instantly came with me. It wasn't even a question. And I've had the same people around me for like basically my whole life. And um I mean my business partner is my college roommate from freshman year. So I've been intentional about that my whole life. And I have the the best, kindest, most loyal, smartest, funniest, coolest group of people around me at all time. So I never feel like
I never feel sorry for myself, you know? And you shouldn't. You're you're a rich man. Not not with money, but you're a rich man. Much money. It's I don't know what happened to all the money. I don't really care. It's kind of funny. It's amazing.
You know, I want to ask you about nowadays I feel like we we live in times where, you know, facts don't matter anymore. No, it's like your truth, my truth. It's like narcissistic approach to to postmodern for sure.
Why is that? Explain that to me. Well, it's evil. I mean the I mean the New Testament describes Satan as you know as a liar and um so I think you know the most basic of all lies is that there's no truth because it's a synonym for nothing is real and you can't have a society or even a family or any unit based on that lie because nothing works. Like all of our laws are based on the idea that there is right and wrong in an absolute sense. it's wrong to murder an innocent person. Period. And no amount of talking can make it right. There's no way to justify murdering an innocent. That belief, which is consistent across cultures, is rooted in the understanding that some things are just true. You don't get to make the rules. They pre-existed you. So, um I think when you see people trying to pretend that, you know, nothing is real, your truth, my truth, what they're really doing is attacking the source of all truth, which is God. and I think things fall apart and become really really dark. So, it's it's worth fighting that. And the other last thing I would say is that the truth is different. I by the way very often don't know what the truth is about things. I mean, I have no idea.
And that's okay. Just Yeah. I wish I knew, but I don't know. And as you get older, you realize things you thought were true are not, and you're less certain about what's true.
Yeah. But you do know that when you hear something true, it sounds different and it sticks with you. Even something you've never thought before, the truth hits very differently because it has a holy power to it. I think
I love that. It's true. Don't you think that's right? No, I it's absolutely right. You'll hear something and you'll be like, I've never thought of that. I can't
I can't prove it one way or the other, but wow, I can't stop thinking about that. That's likely to be a true thing. Talking about truth, there are many people in, you know, mainstream media, they're not bad people. They honestly think, many of them think that they are
paddling the the right narrative here, right? Like, and they are not idiots either because it takes a special person to go on camera and, you know, talk for an hour non-stop. Like, that's a talent. Okay.
Of a sort. Of a sort. Exactly. And they are not like, you know, idiots. So, how does a journalist become a tool of a deep state?
Well, in two ways. Um, unknowingly and then intentionally. So, as someone who's been a tool of the deep state many, many times by accident. Unknowingly.
That was my next question. I was like, have I been used? You think? Yeah. Oh, I've been used for sure. Um, I think the thing that makes me different from some journalists is that I really resent that. I feel diminished by it and humiliated by it and I'm mad about it both at myself and at the person who used me. So, I never will get over that. I'm really angry about it.
Um, if you don't mind being used at all, if you're the kind of person who would and they're thrive in prison, if you know what I mean. No, I don't know. I'm sorry. I mean, but I do think like there's a self-respect part of it, right? Absolutely. I noticed this after co some people were like, "Oh, they lied to us. Okay, we'll move on." Some people are like, "What? They lied to us? How dare you?" And it was the how dare you people that I was drawn to because they thought that the truth matters subjectively just matters what's true whether I like it or not. And second, they had a a like dignity and self-respect. Particularly the men, you know, I I couldn't help judging, and I still judge. I try not to, but I do. Men who don't mind being lied to or used, it's like men, you know, I I just have contempt for that. I do. Sorry.
No, no. The I'm with you there. So, before I move to international politics, which is going to be Oh, man. It's so interesting, but I want to talk about some domestic stuff.
Okay. and not I didn't want to even mention him in this interview at all but um why do you think a foreign leader Natanyahu I'm talking about him what's the secret here it seems like you know you got to step up your patriotism talker like he's he's more in love with the US than you are what the hell is going on here I mean guy comes out and tells us how worried he is about us and how much he I don't think he pledges the this love to Israel is you know as many times that he has done to the US. I don't know how Israelis feel about that. But what's the deal with this guy?
He's using the United States, its economy, and its military power for his own ends. By the way, he's hardly the only foreign leader who's tried to do that or wanted to do that. You know, of course, um that's not only common, it's generally the rule. What's remarkable to me is how effective he's been at that and how contemptuous he is.
I think he shocked himself. I don't know if if you've seen this video of him. He asked the journalist to turn off the camera and the journalist kind of, you know, left it running and he goes, "80% of Americans, this is an old one, 80% of Americans support us. It's absurd." Like, so he's also surprised. Did you
I think that's right. And he has he has real contempt for the United States and for Christianity especially, which is very gling. I mean, lots of people have contempt for the United States and lots of people have contempt for Christianity. Again, he's not alone in that. But the fact that we're supporting him and his government to the extent that we are floating the whole thing to the tune of many many billions is not three billion a year. It's tens of billions a year.
It's not really him either. Like if I was a foreign country leader and I could drive the United States and like you know what's wrong with us is the question. What is wrong with us?
I couldn't agree more. I think that's a really smart. I mean, one of the problems that I have with anti-semitism, well, the core problem I have is that I'm a Christian and I think God created everybody and I don't think you can hate a group, period. So, we're not allowed to do that. So, I have that's the problem I have. But the other problem I have with anti-semitism is that it's a dodge. It's a dodge. It's a way of passing responsibility from yourself to somebody else. And the truth is, yes, I think BB is completely evil and completely destructive. Absolutely. He's not the only world leader who's evil and destructive, by the way, again, but he is. And he's hurting the United States and he's destroying his own country and I think he imperils the world. Okay. So, I think that clearly they're going to try and blow up Alaxa mosque. I believe that on the Temple Mount to build a third temple and then you've got global war. So, like he's a threat. There's no question he's a threat to the Trump administration. No question. But am I matter at him or Lindsey Graham? It's not even close.
I was going to make CB Netanyahu is a foreigner. He's trying to do what he thinks he should do for himself in his country. I get that. What's Lindsey Graham's excuse? What's Ted Cruz's excuse? Ted Cruz says right into the camera, "I was elected. My main goal was to help Israel." Really, how you get elected on a platform in which you say publicly, my main goal is to help another country. This is deranged. Where's our self-respect? So, no, I am um way way more angry at my leaders than I am at Netanyahu. Much was not even close. I don't want to even think about, you know, I'm not interested. I'm very interested in how American leaders could betray their own country. That enrages me. And I just want to say it again. I think anti-semitism very often is a way to pass the buck to it's their fault. And you see this not just with anti-semitism but with this like lunacy about Russia was Russian interference or you know some foreigners always to blame and maybe there's some truth in all of that but the real blame lies with us. Why are we allowing this?
So true. And I wish more people were talking like that who have the platforms and the means to do so but they are not. And that's crazy to me. Why? Because it's so obviously true. It is obvious. Yeah. I can't control BB Netany and Yahoo. I can certainly have an effect in the United States. I can say you cannot reelect Ted Cruz. You cannot reelect Lindsey Graham. Not because they're evil. I'm not even saying they are, but because they've betrayed their most basic commitment, which is to our country, right? Above all others. I mean, I I don't know why that's not complicated at all.
Well, I I think I know the answer to that. Like, have you looked at resumes of congressmen and senators? Like, you're more qualified to be there than and I'm more qualified to be there than they are. I know. Crazy. I know. And and then you have like Ted Cruz, you mentioned Ted Cruz. Um Ted Cruz was supposed to be the smart one. Was supposed to be. What the heck is going on here?
Well, I mean, I think Ted has it's it's really interesting because I see when I look at Ted, who I've known for long before I got into politics. Um and I've known him well, and there are things about him I like. But I I see a mirror almost like I see So the problem with Ted Cruz is he has a high verbal IQ. He is very fluent with the language and you and I am also so and everyone in our business is and you see the same pitfalls every time. If you are a good talker you convince yourself that you're a genius because you hear yourself talk and you're like man I'm smart. But there is a huge difference between the ability to explain something or fluency with English and wisdom, like true wisdom. And these people, all of this happened to me. They get incredibly arrogant. And they think they're smarter than they are. They think they're wiser than they are. And that is that was that's why he did the interview with me. He's like, I'm a brilliant debater. You're not really actually. You destroyed the guy. You're kind of Well, cuz he's he's not very smart. No, he's not like he like at all at all. I mean, I know people especially here. I was just literally outside talking to one of them who I work with here um in our very rural town who is so dyslexic. He can barely speak English. He's a native English speaker. But man, if I have a problem, I'd call him first because he has such deep wisdom. He's like twice as smart as Ted Cruz. So, don't mistake verbal intelligence for the sort of intelligence that matters cuz it's not the same. I absolutely agree with you. Um, the same goes for Dan Crancho. I mean the guy is I'm sorry I had to like this is I mean Dan is Denn is somebody who's so convinced that he has the answers to you know
hey like in the case of Dan he seems really hurting. I mean of course he is. We just didn't obviously I don't like Dan Krenshaw. He threatened to kill me. Um, I was not afraid somehow. But I look at him that guy's in agony. That's my reason. He's a troubled child. Dan is a troubled child who lost his mother and I think he needs to find his way and someone need to guide him.
But he kind of lost friends. There's no one to actually point the way. So really, that's sad. I didn't know that. I mean, I grew up without a mother and it worked fine. I got a really good wife, though, so that that helps.
That helps. Um, but I would uh I'm interested to hear that's interesting cuz I boy I feel it on him. He's just bristling with hostility. He's so clearly the most insecure person ever. Oh, he seems like I don't know this cuz I've never shared a bed with him. Thank heaven. But he seems like the kind of guy who's up late in bed like checking his mentions. No, but reading about himself on Twitter or something. Absolutely. That's the road to hell to agony. You are a very wise man.
No, no, no. You are like you can see through a person. That's that's a talent, Chucker. They they should be afraid of you. No, I don't. I mean, I think I I don't think I have any extraordinary talent, but with him, it's very obvious. And I think the key to understanding other people is being honest about yourself. Yeah. And if you and you know Christianity requires that like you ask for forgiveness before you forgive other people. Why do they in in the in the basic prayer of the religion? Why do you do that? Because if you meditate on what a shitty person you are, it's very hard to judge other people and but you also get if you understand your own weaknesses like Ted both Ted Cru especially Ted Cruz like I know what's wrong with Ted Cruz because I've struggled with that myself where you give us like I don't speak with notes ever. I've never spoken with notes and I don't have teleprompter or anything like that. So when you do that it's so fun. It's great. It's like one of the greatest experiences ever. I mean, I actually love giving speeches because it's hard and because the stuff comes out of your mouth that you've never thought of before. It's like a very interesting experience and wild and so exciting and I love it.
But the the problem with it is is you get off stage and you're like you start thinking about what you said and you're like, "Wow, I'm smart. It's incredible how smart I am." Like I'm like kind of a genius actually. I know. and and when I was a kid and I had all these job I kept getting fired and this buddy of mine who was also in television like you got to start giving speeches so you can pay school tuition. So I did and I gave like over a thousand around the world. Wow. And he he said to me when I first started, he goes, "You're going to have this thing where you're going to get off the stage and you're going to be so swollen with self-regard. You're going to have fallen so deeply in love with yourself that a woman in the audience is going to feel that and she's going to hit on you and you're going to feel like, "Yeah, I got this." Yeah. Yes. I thought that was a and I never that never had a problem with that. But he identified for this is someone I really respected um with James Carville. I'll just tell you that. And uh who was a very wise man despite being deranged. But I I from the very first day I started that public speaking thing, I knew that it could easily wind up with meglamania, hubris, arrogance like you. Anyway, it's dangerous.
I want to ask you about something that most people like to deflect. You know, I'm not a deflector. I know. I know. And that's why I'm here. Um why is that? There's only few things, you know, that both parties that America can offer. There's two really. And there there we have then we have MAGA, right? Like it's something different. It's Republican, but it's really not like I feel like it's they their intention was to be that third party that Americans wanted to see for the longest. It didn't work out. I don't think so. Um,
first I want to ask you, did MAGA turn out to be what you thought it would be? Well, nothing ever turns out, right? Be what you thought it would be. I was with Pete Heget the other night and at Charlie Kirk's funeral. And um he goes, "Man, dude, we had the same job. We worked together at Fox on the morning show." And he goes, "Can you believe where we were 10 years ago?" And I was like, "You know, I'm now a podcaster." I total contempt for and you're the secretary of defense. Like, how did this happen? Um, not a criticism, but just like I think all people as they age are like, "How did I get here? What is this?" Uh, so no, it didn't. But it's I mean, we're now so it's what, September of 2025. We're 8 months in almost exactly 8 months in almost to the day and it's in the process of becoming. We can't say what it is because it's evolving very quickly. And it will become all kinds of things that we don't expect. And some of them will be really bad. Some of them will be great cuz that's just it's like your children. They grow up and you're like, "Wow, I can't I can't believe this is what happened here. You were the baby." Uh, but
I think we can say there are a couple of different principles that are central to Trump's three campaigns and central to uh his voters. They're the reason people voted for him. And I think that we can insist that that we uphold those. The first is that the United States is uh sovereign and the person who leads the country has to be uh committed to sovereignty which is another way of saying America first. The people leading the United States have to put America's interest, the interest of the people of America above all other interests. Period. We can insist on that. Very hard to force politicians to to stick with that butt we have to. The second is that war I despite, you know, everyone celebrates war and hates everyone who's against killing innocents, you know, it's it's not good. There are probably cases where it's necessary, self-defense, obviously, but in general, voluntary wars hurt the United States. They get Americans killed. They drain the treasury. They devalue the dollar. And they change our culture in ways that we don't perceive at first, but they're almost always negative.
And I know that everyone wants to lie about this. That's what you have. You have books with titles like The Good War. Tell me how that was good. Um, shut up Nazi. Okay, just for the record, I'm very against Hitler, very against Nazis. But um, it but the celebration of war and the deaths of millions of people and alliances with Stalin and all that stuff. And like it's bad. It's bad. And voluntary wars, wars you don't have to fight. You're not even pushed to fight are really, really bad. And the third is free speech, which is the foundation of the United States. the foundation of the government. It's the first right in the Bill of Rights.
And it's also at the core of Christian civilization. The idea that, you know, the leader of a state doesn't own the citizens. They're not slaves. They're free. Their rights were given to them by God long before the current president or Amir or king got there. Mhm. And they can't be taken away under any circumstances. And there always attempts to curtail free speech. and they're always motivated by the same impulse, which is, wait, I've got power. You can't criticize me. You're in the way. It's very obnoxious when you criticize me. No one wants to hear criticism. But we have to fight that. And I mean, actually fight that. And um, you know, you know, countries that uh you know, betray their core promises fall apart and governments that do that get overthrown and they deserve to be overthrown. We've seen that in history many times over.
That is history is that is that story. So, you can't um you can't mistreat your people too much or they'll overthrow the government and they'll be right to do that. I got to say something that many people won't like. Maybe you won't like either, but here here's something that bothers me a lot. You have no idea how many hours I have devoted to understanding and I come from a different country. I have multiple perspectives.
I thought you were from Atlanta. Oh, really? Yeah. I get that a lot. You said you were from Georgia, right? Howdy. Howdy. So why is that the US is so gungho on war all the time but not like put politicians out of it for a second. It's almost like we put our special ops soldiers like on a pedestal in a way like there's nothing they can do wrong, right? So I have hard time Tucker like call me whatever you want but when I see a veteran from Iraq I have hard time telling him thank you for your service for for what service for attacking a country on a lie. Like it's not his fault. I get it. It might be more appropriate to apologize,
especially for me who advocated for that war. There are a couple of different questions that you asked. One, why the drive to war? Always different pretext, but same impulse. War. Exactly. And the answer is, of course, that it makes you feel powerful. It's the ultimate, you know, killing people is is the ultimate expression of power. We can't create life, but we can end it. And you see the same with abortion. like people love it, you know, love it. It's a positive good. How is that a positive good? Because you feel powerful. Um I've been around it a lot at both ends, you know, when the decision is made to commit to war and I've seen the effects firsthand, you know, covering wars. And um I think there's a massive disconnect between those. I don't think that the people who make the decision have any tangible sense of what it means at all. I think a lot of them are ignorant, insulated. I mean, I do really prefer the feudal model, which is the ancient, it's the model of all time where, you know, when when the Normans invaded England in 1066, we know this from the Bay Tapestry. Who got killed in the Battle of Hastings? King Harold. The king, right? The English king was killed in the first battle. Why? Because he was leading his troops. He gets shot in the eye with an arrow. So if you have that, you know, in a structure like that, a society like that, you know,
say sleazy gay people in in Congress. Well, exactly. I mean, I don't think I don't think that um and I don't know if you're who you're talking about, but I don't think Lindsey Graham is like going to lead troops in battle. I just don't. So, there's that. Okay. But it's also true that, you know, the nobility um kings led troops in battle in pointless wars also. So, like that would help, but it's not the answer.
No, war most of the time is an expression, the purest expression of the exercise of power. I get to kill people and they love it and and I've certainly been around it a lot of leaders who make these decisions talking about it in private. I've definitely seen this and they all kind of like get a charge out of it. You we took them out, we smoked them, right? You want to see the video? I mean, I've seen that. And it's like, what are you really saying? You're saying like I'm exercising god-like powers, then there's massive punishment for that, for the person who makes ultimately there's massive punishment for that for the person who makes the decision, but also for his people. As to why Americans participated in the war on terror, which is an interesting question that I can answer because I didn't fight, but I I went immediately. Mhm. Um, I mean, I left Washington on a plane like the I think the first day the airport opened to go to Southwest Asia to go see what was going on because I knew we were going to invade Afghanistan. So, I I went um and then I went to Iraq and I've been to a bunch of other places, too. But when I first went to those two, I was like, "Yeah, this is just good." And a lot of people disagreed and they were protesting and I was interviewing them. I did couldn't hear a word they said because I was angry and afraid. so on point.
That's the answer. I was angry and afraid and it shut down my ability to make rational judgments about things as it always does. You know, you get pissed and you I once broke my hand cuz I punched a wall. I was so mad. I was much younger, of course, but I literally broke my hand. Why would you break your own hand on a wall? Because you're mad. I also punched a good friend of mine in the face once when I was drunk because I was in an argument. I got so mad I lost control. Clearly rage um is bad. It's evil. You're not supposed to be enraged ever. We encourage it. We shouldn't. And it was fear and rage. And so whenever I see the authorities trying to stoke fear and rage. I know that they're trying to control me. I think that's 90% of our conversation about race in the United States is designed to make Americans hate each other, to make them fearful of each other, to make them mad at each other so that they won't know what
what hit them. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. What their leaders are actually doing.
You know, speaking of war on terror, you have a documentary docue series as I understand about 911. Yes. If I'm going to watch anyone's investigation about 911, it's going to be yours. didn't get to the bottom of it. Oh, no. It's fine. I'm just telling. Well, um, guess what? We kind of already know what happened, but what we got a lot closer, I would say. Really? Okay. Talk to me about it cuz I know, you know, I I got some, you know, info about your documentary and first of all, like I saw the first episode was like amazing. So, highly recommended to to watch. Um, what'd you find out?
We found out a couple of things. Um, you know, there are huge questions that we didn't answer, like what happened to building 7? Couldn't couldn't figure it out. Um, but we, you know, we established, among other things, people who are still wondering what happened to building 7 have every right to wonder. Yeah. It's just like people are wondering how 19 foreigners who were tied by US intelligence to terror activities got to circulate freely under their own names in the United States for more than a year before they killed 3,000 Americans. like how did that happen? Something tells me the CIA was involved in here. So
well, the CIA was involved at every level. Now, whether they wanted 911 to happen is an open question that we couldn't answer. Well, I would argue they didn't want Bay of Pigs going the way it did either, but right and so the you know the most charitable explanation is that they wanted that CIA specifically CIA want and but other intel agencies but really CIA um it's often said that NSA is the biggest intel agency. I don't know how they're measuring that. We don't know how big CIA is because it's all classified, but they're clearly the they're the key player in the IC.
I see them as siblings. Like I feel like CIA gets older crap, but NSA does a lot of bad too. Like I totally agree. Well, they they spied on me. So gosh, did you know they actually hire former special ops? This is what people don't know. I can attest to it. I I have a fact. Like they hire former special ops guys like Silim 6 and send them on oneman operations. Did you know that? Why? Why? Why would CIA? Why would CIA do that? Sorry. Why would NSA do that? Because they can, right? Because it's all classified. That's what it is. Including their budget. So when things are secret, of course, um people can do whatever they want because there's no oversight at all. And and the congressional oversight of the intelligence community. Hey, Tucker. It's a matter of national security. Okay, what are you talking about? It's all a lie. But anyway, look, CIA uh was involved at every level. They followed these guys. Israeli intelligence also followed them in the United States. It's possible that French intelligence did also, but we know the first two happened. Doesn't mean they planned 911, but it means for whatever reason they knew that these guys were up to that they're playing a terror attack and they didn't stop it. Why? I'll let that question hang in the air, but there's no question that they knew. There's absolutely no question. And I should say, by the way, for the for the five episodes, we only interviewed people who were directly involved in, you know, the years preceding 911, 911, and the aftermath. So, it was only primary sources. These are actual players. Okay? It wasn't anyone who like came to conclusions here. Yeah. Zero. This is like the FBI agent in charge. Okay. the guy who ran the bin Laden station ran the you know the section at CIA where they tracked Bin Laden etc etc etc. So we only talked to people who are directly involved. I I got to say of all the I mean this took many months many months and it was painful for me because you know I I was on the periphery of all of that as it was happening and didn't understand it at all. We have a producer called Charlie Hugger who's we've worked I've worked with for many many years and who's just amazing and a combination he's just purely skeptical and smart very smart extremely smart smarter than I am very skeptical doesn't believe anything that's the guy you want so I I as we talked through I was like we got to do something that's responsible that's factual that's fearless but it's got to be responsible we can't say anything that we don't know to be true and we didn't but the thing that blew my mind maybe more than any so All of the theories about 9/11 turn on one question which is was there for knowledge do people know this was coming and if so like why didn't they do anything about it or to what extent were they involved but that's the question was there fornowledge was this just a total shock or it was not really a shock actually and the thing that convinced me most that there was for I mean there was fornowledge but there were huge bets put in the public financial markets against shorting the airlines involved in 9/11 and the banks and the buildings that were collapsed. Huge. And so, and we know that because they're public markets. We can track the trades. And no one has ever been no one's ever explained that. What I learned during the course of making this is that the FBI found out who made those trades and has hidden the names for 24 years. And so to me, like we made this in part because we wanted to spur a a real investigation. The first one by Philip Zelico was fake and he was basically just a cutout for Condoleezza Rice, a former national security adviser. But um we wanted to force a re-examination of 9/11, a new commission, a real one cuz I think it's really important because America was changed completely by that day.
But that one fact like we don't need to wait for a commission, right? Like I would like to see people a little bit more engaged. like we're going to actually chain ourselves to the gates of the FBI until you tell us this. Like I'm in favor of that being honest. Yes, I'll be there. People are not, you know, I hope they will do that. There's no indication that they will. It's the most second most important thing that happened in my opinion in American history. First was killing President Kennedy.
Of course. That's right. Because because that's never been explained because there was a cover up. Absolutely. Um because there may have been foreign involvement, very likely foreign involvement in that. Um I can't say conclusively, but there I I think that's true. Certainly parts of the CIA were involved. There's really no question. Yeah. Because no one who was involved was ever held to account for involvement. It means that for 62 years, this has hung over every US president as a kind of warning, as a monkey on a stick, as they used to say. You know, you impale the monkey just so the other monkeys are like, "Whoa, better not." You know what I mean? Do whatever that monkey did. Absolutely. Um, and so it really is a leash on every American president. And there's a reason that, you know, the truth matters because otherwise evil thrives in darkness. talking about the truth and how it matters. Why is it that Epstein files somehow both parties come together when it gets to why should it not be public, right? They they don't even give you real reasons though. That's the that's the crazy part. like Democrats don't fight over, oh, you know, we should we should push this because there must be something about Trump or some and you have Republicans who are like, you know what, it's fine. Are you are we still talking about this guy Tucker? Like, what is up with that?
I mean, I think the obvious answer is probably the right answer. Um, I've talked to the president about it a lot and his view is that this is all a trap. He said this many times in public. All right. All a trip. What do you mean by that? It's all a trip. He believes or he says and he said to me and I think he said in public um that this reminds him of Russia gate. This is an attempt by Democrats to ensnare him in a fake scandal. He had nothing to do with Epstein. He's not, you know, did never did anything creepy. Which, by the way, I just want to say I believe that completely. I don't I think I know him pretty well and I quite well and I don't I just don't imagine that at all. It's whatever the president sends. I don't think
why not. Why not? But I don't I don't know the answer. I think it's incredibly counterproductive. I think it would have been very easy for the administration to be transparent about Epstein. I think it would have helped the country. I think it would have helped the administration a lot. Absolutely. Given it credibility. Listen, I I know you know him well, so I I want to theorize here real quick because no one, you know, people do interviews and they don't really go into this stuff like they I don't know why why are they so scared. So obviously I I'm not honestly even
Interested, who was in the Epstein list? Cuz I'm going to see all the good names there. Because if I'm, if I'm a vicious guy that wants some kind of, you know, dirty stuff on on a guy that's doing good, that's pretty much how I would do it. Like I would target good people that are in power, powerful positions making decisions.
So, could it be that, you know, human emotion? If we're, if we're talking about the most damaging human emotion, it's mostly shame. Like, people do stuff because they are ashamed, and they, they will trample over love. Love is most powerful, but they will trample over love. But when it gets to shame, and the, see, I learned this long time ago. People typically will do whatever it takes so that their dirty laundry is not out there. Could it be that Trump was there and he just doesn't want to jeopardize his presidency, even putting it out there?
Well, I mean, that's a matter of documentary proof that Trump knew Epstein. Um, Trump's talked about this a lot. Yeah, I knew Epstein. He did creepy stuff at my club. I kicked him out. Um, it's absolutely true. I can verify this firsthand that Epstein was like always around and like everyone, you know, knows Epstein and having dinner at his house. And I don't think having dinner at his house or even necessarily going to his island is proof of a crime. I know a million people who had dinner with him. Um, mostly liberal. Uh, he was liberal, but I don't, you know, he had this kind of salon going on in his house right off Fifth Avenue in the 70s, biggest house in New York.
And he was just inviting everyone to dinner, and he's audacious living there, and he's got Stephen Hawking, and he's got members of the British family, and like, so on that level, knowing Epstein is not a crime. Exactly. It's not a, much less something to be ashamed of. That was he was at the center of, New York society for like, and Palm Beach society for decades. Decades. So, if you want, I mean, it's on the internet. You want a list of people who hung out with Epstein? It's like half the people on television hung out with Epstein.
But here's the problem though. Here's where, where like, things don't line up for me. So, if this guy is a Mossad operative and conducting an operation actively in the United States trying to target people, trying to get something on them, why, why are our agencies okay with that? Like, that's what I just don't get.
Well, you know perfectly well. Look. Yeah. No, I know. But like, so there are a lot of, look, I'm speculating at this point. Um, he clearly had contact with Israeli intelligence, clearly contact with US intelligence, and maybe most critically, British intelligence, which never gets the credit it deserves for being probably a little scarier than Mossad and CIA and and ruthless and just involved in everything bad. There's nothing bad that happens that doesn't have British intelligence involved in it. I have noticed a lot. So, there's that. Then there's also the question of like, you know, was his sex life, you know, like a hobby, or was it a job, or was it both? Was this a honey trap?
I think it was both. Yeah. Probably both. Right. Um, there's no Epstein list. There are no Epstein files. This is, I know this. All of the real story begins in 2006-7 when he's arrested in Palm Beach. And I think this is public and it's worth looking at is the search warrant. Jeffrey Epstein's house in Palm Beach basically was written to help Jeffrey Epstein. So, this came to the attention of the authorities because a girl complained about him. They had to investigate. They did. There was a lot there. And then the search warrant basically protected him and it prevented the authorities from collecting meaningful information. It was like, you're allowed to look in drawer three, but not drawer four. How did that happen? Like, that's the center of the story. So, the truth is, the US government doesn't have that much. What they do have is the ability to talk to people who are involved, like Les Wexner, which they've never done, who is the longtime owner of The Limited, Victoria's Secret, lots of other companies. Um, who was a very close friend of Jeffrey Epstein, kind of clearly unusual relationship with him, and wound up buying, right, his property in Fifth Avenue, for example, I think also his house in his ranch in New Mexico, and a lot of things. Massive transfer of money from this guy, Les Wexner, in Ohio to Jeffrey Epstein. Why? Leon Black, same thing. He says for accounting services. That's clearly not true. Those are people who could be brought in to explain what they know, and they haven't. So, to me, I think the Epstein list, the client list, I have been reliably told that there is no such thing, really. We, but we know who the big players are, cuz it's already been public. They're not being questioned. Yeah. And what is that? What? You tell me what that is. I don't know. And I think it's really distressing. So, that's not about Mossad or MI6 or CIA. That's about stuff that was in Vanity Fair magazine that no one's followed up on it. So, I think, as usual, the crime is right in front of our faces. And I can't answer that question. I find it enormously frustrating. And I'll just say once again that the Trump administration, I think, would help itself quite a bit. I don't think they have anything to fear. If what they, if what people are say they're afraid of is that Trump did something gross with women. I, I really don't. I just want to be clear. I do not believe that. I'm not covering for Trump. I just don't think that's true. I've never seen any indication of it. And I've talked to people, to be totally honest with you, close to Epstein, very close to Epstein, who've told me off camera in private, that's not Trump. Never did that. So, I don't think it's about that. But why is no one talking to Les Wexner? And most critical from my perspective is Epstein's death, which was very clearly a murder. He was murdered. I'd bet my house on it. And there's a lot of evidence that he was murdered. And the Justice Department under Bill Barr lied about it. And what is that? Again, that's not even, it's, it's, it's almost like the BB thing. It's not really about BB. It's, you know, I don't, I don't like BB. I think he's deranged. It's not about BB. It's about us. Like, it's about us. It's about us. It's not about Epstein. It's not about Mossad. Right.
I just want to say again that I think I understand like some of the stories that the anti-Semites tell. Okay. But I think ultimately the anti-Semites are really bad because they, on many levels, morally, they're bad, of course, but they also, as a practical matter, the anti-Semites are bad because they draw you away from the actual truth, which is there's like serious corruption right next to us. Has nothing to do with Jews. Exactly. Right. And, um, I really, I mean it too. I'm not just saying that. So, he was murdered in the most secure part of the federal detention facility in Manhattan, our biggest city. And Bill Barr, the then attorney general under Donald Trump, covered it up. What? And it just so happens that Bill Barr's father, Donald Barr, is the one who hired Jeffrey Epstein without a college degree to teach at one of the most prestigious private schools in Manhattan. Maybe there's no connection there. I don't know, but it's an amazing. I just learned, and I believe it's true. I learned from a very well-informed person that it was Donald Barr who got Epstein his job at Bear Stearns. Yes, at Bear Stearns. And by the way, that doesn't, that's not proof of anything, but I called it circumstantial case, Stucker. It's not a proof. It is a circumstantial case. So, I'm totally convinced. I've said this in public many times. He's threatened to sue me, but and I would welcome that, that I think that Attorney General Barr covered up his death. I mean, I know that he did. He announced that it was a suicide before they'd done an investigation. So, you can't, you're, you're a law, you're the chief law enforcement officer. Here are the rules. We don't say we know something until we know it. And you had no way to know that. So, you announced it anyway. And then you tell everyone around you, this was a suicide, and we're going to prove it's a suicide. That's not law enforcement. That's by definition a cover-up. And that happened, and he admitted he did that. So, he covered up Epstein's murder. And for whatever reason, and his dad got Epstein started in life. I, I just don't even know what to make of those. Those are facts, and I don't know what to make of them.
I want to ask you about Danino and uh, Cash Patel when they were when they were giving interviews like two scolded kids that they, you know, it's just what was that about? Okay. So, okay, we know the cover-up happened. That's fine. Yes. Trump has his people. Not maybe not all of them. I know it's hard. I know the capacity it requires to clean up a 65-year-old mess. Maybe even more. But these two showed up and told us, "Oh, no. It was, it was a suicide." Yep, guys. It was a suicide. I, I trusted Cash Patel. I still trust Dan Benino. I like Dan a lot. Dan's a friend of mine and and a really good guy. I don't know what to make of that. I think I don't, I know Cash, of course. Um, but I know Dan well enough to know I, I would be shocked if he was lying. I think he, he's, he must have believed that. I don't believe that. I told him, I, I talked to him later. Um, I don't believe that at all. And they've released no evidence that makes me believe that at all. And they released this video, which is absolutely ridiculous. And they've never told us who are the other. So, I think there were 12 inmates in the secure part of the facility. And I, I spent like months on this story with Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark, the only survivor in that family who believes he was murdered and has a lot of evidence that he was. And I, I really walked through it all. I went to, I mean, went visited him. We spent days on this, and no one's ever explained any of the stuff. And I could go through all the evidence, but, you know, I've already done it. But the point is, I don't understand why they think that. In Dan's case, I just knowing him well, I can say I, I believe that he believed it. I don't believe it. Um, in general, I think we would just be all better off. We'd have less suspicion, less conspiracy theories and misinformation if we were just honest about it.
Just show us. I know in my life that is true. When you stop, I mean, when I realized the Iraq war was a disaster, I guess I could have, since it all happened before YouTube, I could have been like, I was never for this. I always knew this was. But I was like, "No, I'm not gonna let myself do that. I'm gonna admit that I advocated for this disaster, that it was all a lie. I participated in a lie unknowingly, but I did participate in it." Right. And once I admitted that about myself, I was totally free. When you're not hiding something, you're liberated. Well, you're also kind of unshakable. There's nothing they can do. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. Totally. Yeah. And I'm not a virtuous person at all. I've done a lot of things I'm ashamed of in my life, but I have concluded because I have done bad things that trying not to do bad things, doing your best, you probably will do them anyway, but then admitting it when you do it, that is, that's like salvation on this earth.
Before we go on like a super happy note, and I want to finish it that way, cuz, cuz you're so pleasant, you know. Thank you. I do want to ask you, it, it bothers me a lot, and I know it does. It bothers you too, and I know that you probably don't sleep because you think about this stuff. Who killed Charlie Kirk? Um, I mean, I, you know, there's a man in custody. I've really tried not to publicly speculate or say anything that I can't prove. And you shouldn't. That's smart. I love Charlie, and I, I talked to his wife this morning. I love his wife Erica, and um, I don't want to make it worse. So, the guy's in custody. It's a very weird story. I will also say, having been a police reporter and covered a lot of crimes, that all crimes are pretty weird. You know, the farther you dig, they're always anomalies, things that don't make sense, witnesses who saw something completely different. You know, just any human experience, if it has multiple vantage points, is hard to reconstruct. Um, that said, you know, they're going to need to do a real investigation on this. And I'll, here's all I'll say. If the FBI and the authorities in Utah, um, end this investigation by declaring Tyler Robinson a lone gunman with no accomplices whatsoever without having done, you know, a truly exhaustive investigation, you know, sort of like the one they did into January 6th, right? Um, that will not be adequate. That will not be acceptable. And I think that they will risk further fracturing the United States, um, along the lines of people who believe the story or want to believe the story and those who, you know, just don't find it an adequate explanation. So, I hate even to say that that could happen because, you know, you, it's my country, my government. I want to trust the FBI. There's no reason to trust the FBI at all, at all. I mean, they've acted, they've been caught acting in bad faith and conducting what I consider crimes, um, so many times, lying so many times that I think it's at this point, especially since my friend who was assassinated, I think it's fair to demand a real investigation with a lot of transparency. And if they say, "Oh, we can't say that cuz we don't want to prejudice the jury or, you know, it's going to affect the prosecution," that's not a good answer. Tell me what happened. I'm particularly interested in, you know, of course, all the, the practical details. There's no videotape of this guy getting on the roof. There's no videotape of him bringing the gun on the roof. It's not clear he brought the gun off the roof. Um, it's not in videotape anyway. So, I'm interested in like, how did he get away? For example, who was this guy, Zen, in the front? George Zinn. Yeah. Why? What is that? Is that connected? Like, tell me, tell me a story that makes sense. But what I'm most interested in is how a guy who was by all appearances, pretty normal kid, wound up murdering a stranger just a couple years later. Like, he was radicalized. Okay, walk me through that. Tell me exactly how that happened. I think we're, we're owed that. Um, you know, I do, I have confidence we're going to get that? Zero. Not because I'm not attacking Cash Patel. I'm not attacking anybody specifically. Yeah, I feel, I feel sorry for them. I know he, I do too. And I, and I, I know for a fact, cuz I have been, you know, trying to learn all that I can. They're under enormous pressure, for sure. But the institution of the FBI, no one's really been fired from the FBI, by the way. And we know that, um, I mean, their behavior has been like almost unbelievable over the past 10 years. Like, I'm sh, I am shocked by it as a 56-year-old American who kind of believed that things were on the level, we're all pursuing justice here. I'm shocked by it. And I'm shocked by the fact that no one's really been punished for it. And you don't get reforms without punishment. Period. And I'm not even saying anyone should be executed. I'm just saying the kind of punishment you'd mete out to your own children because you love them. I caught you doing something. You have to admit you did it. I'm going to punish you, and then hopefully your behavior will improve. Without that, your behavior doesn't improve. And I'm not confident theirs has. And of course, I know people who worked there, and one of them said to me recently, before Charlie's assassination, but said to me, "Everything that you think about the FBI, um, you know, undersells it. It's, and I'm quoting, 10 times worse than you think internally." I believe. So, um, that's a verbatim quote. So, uh, you know, I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I, I'm under no obligation to have confidence in any story they tell me. I'm going to need proof. And I would hope that every American would demand, even people who didn't like Charlie Kirk, because it's not about the assassination of one man. It's about whether you can have a functioning country. Exactly. Where you can hold wrongdoers to account and affect justice. I agree. And, uh, so I'm, I haven't said anything, and I'm not going to, um, until, you know, there's there's a reason to make hard judgments. But if it turns out the FBI is not doing an adequate investigation, and it's not just me, of course, Charlie had a million friends. People should go bonkers. They should go bonkers and and absolutely demand it. Like, because that is too much. Exactly. Enough is enough. I agree with you. And now to the, the good part of the interview. Okay. Tell me what's love for Tucker Carlson. What's love? What's love for Tucker Carlson? What do I love? Oh gosh. When you think about love, what is that for you? Well, it's funny you said that because today is the 41st anniversary of the day I began dating my wife, which is kind of weird. And, um, and kind of great. And we took the morning off and sat in bed with the dogs and coffee and talked all about it. And, and, uh, you know, I've just been really fortunate in that way. So, I met, you know, this girl in 10th grade, and like, it just kind of never ended. It just kept evolving into this great thing, and it, and then it produced all these other great things, all these children, and then all these other, you know, it's just a lot. And it's like a tree, it just all of a sudden it has all these branches, and then squirrels live in the branches, it becomes its own ecosystem, you know, and a marriage is like that. So, um, you know, so for me, that's my primary experience of love is my family and my dogs. We have some incredible dogs, incredible dogs. Uh, so, you know, I have a lot of love in my life, a lot more than I deserve, for sure. And that, that's what keeps me happy every single day. And I always think to myself, I do think, especially when you have kids, you reach a certain point. You know, when you've got little kids at home, it's like, oh man, nothing can happen to me. They need me. But at a certain point in a blessed life, you realize, you know, no one really needs me actually anymore. And that's great. That's great. It's great.
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