The Real Reason Your Doctor Never Told You to Change Your Diet - Dr. Gary Fettke

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Gary Fecky and we talk about carbohydrates, processed carbohydrates, and seed oils and which one is the culprit or is causing more disease. We also talk about how sugar works in the system, the polyol pathway, what that means, how that relates to glucose and fructose, and what we should be eating or removing to have better health. I now eat a lot of meat and so do they. If you want to thrive, you need to eat meat. Meat is required.

Hey guys, my name is Judy Cho and I'm board certified in holistic nutrition and I have a private functional medicine practice where we focus on root cause healing and that often starts with the carnivore cures all meat elimination diet. Today I had the pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Gary Fcky. I've had him on my channel a couple years ago. We talked about fruit, fructose, and I will put all of that in the show notes. And this time we just had a little bit of an update as he talks about seed oils and processed carbohydrates and carbs. I just asked him what he thinks is the bigger culprit in terms of illness. We also talk about obesity and where fat shaming came from and also about LDL particles and the role that fructose plays with that. This conversation at times gets a little bit nuanced. Dr. Dr. Fcky has so much humor as he teaches and explains things and I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's get right into the interview.

Hi Dr. Fcky. It's been several years since I've had you on my channel and same with Belinda, but I'm very excited to have you back on my channel. For the people that may not have watched our first interview, I will put it in the show notes, but if you can introduce yourself.

>> Well, hang on. It can't be several years because I'm looking older and you're looking absolutely fabulous. People ask me how old I am. I'm 85. And um they go, "You're not." They go, "You're right. I'm not. But thanks for thinking I'm not 85." And the other thing about making yourself feel better. I've worked this out is you take the mirror down in the in the bathroom. So you've got nothing to no shock value. I had a look in the mirror. I remember a couple of years ago, you know, it was in the night. I got up and, you know, having a pee and all that sort of things which you can do. And I I went past the mirror and I thought there was an intruder in the house. I realized it was me, you know. So we do get older. Well, you look great. You look great.

>> Well, now I've retired from clinical practice now. I'm still involved in a fair amount of medical politics. I'm back to soccer training my grandson, which is pretty cool. I can still outrun an 8-year-old. So, he he's we're doing work on the farm and um doing a lot of this sort of thing, which is actually supporting people who are carrying the baton in the low carb, keto, carnivore space. So those people who are interested in nutrition, health, agriculture, we you know we briefly spoke about it beforehand. We we're doing most of our effort now supporting that and I'm supporting Belinda. She's doing her ongoing research in her new substack with So it's fun but I'm busier than ever. So

>> that's good. That's good. Um it's always good when you retire to be busy because I think that's one way to prolong leevity. So I think it's great. I wanted to ask you there was a I think a lecture that you did where you mentioned that three things you hate is processed carbs or carbohydrates, processed carbs and then seed oils. Tell me why you dislike these three.

>> So I I'll proudly uh self-promotion. I'm the first person in the world to describe the combination of sugar, refined carbohydrates, and seed oils being a model of inflammation and therefore, as you know, inflammation sits behind every modern disease. It just it does. Well, you got to look for it, but it's there.

>> Okay.

>> So, it was a nutritional model of modern disease based around the model of inflammation. And I can still remember, you know, and I'm I just pieced those three pieces together. I'm not the person who came up with, you know, the the biochemistry of fructose and the and the things with with carbohydrates and seed oils, but I put the jigsaw together and it was in 2013. And so, in summary, it's sugar makes you hungry, carbohydrates make you fat, and polyunsaturated seed oils make you sick and inflamed. That's the meme. And so, we can go through all of that biochemistry. And so, people say, "Oh, you can have fruit." I go, "Well, yes, you can, but you're setting yourself up for the big four." So, how do I summarize it in a minute? Um, tricky, but so therefore, that's why those talks on nutrition and inflammation are all there with diagrams and pictures. And in fact, I got into trouble with the medical board for making it too simple, which is ridiculous because, you know, we're supposed to aim medical education at a 10-year-old. You know, that's the functional level of passing information across. So you can if you can explain it to a 10-year-old then that's what we need to be aiming our message at. So there's no use a convoluted language. We can go into it today but at a public health policy level you need to get it across.

>> Agreed.

>> So sugar is 50% fructose 50% glucose. So the metabolism of fructose fructose goes down multiple pathways goes down an aldahhide pathway which effectively is what produces alcohol

>> and so that actually in short becomes non-alcoholic fatty liver disease.

>> It goes down a small amount of storage into glycogen but the majority of it gets converted into uric acid which as a byproduct which then infects affects our nitric oxide. again biochemistry and nitric oxide is so important in keeping our blood vessels open, our brain vessels open and our immune system going. It then has another pathway which is actually going when you got too much of it which is is in the LDL production you know and I hate the term bad cholesterol but you know in summation becomes bad cholesterol particles the small dense LDLs. So that's fructose. Then you've got glucose and my co talk which I you know I did a whole lot of research on it was carbohydrate the dose is the poison because we've all demonizing carbs and again this quite detailed but essentially I came up and said if we're going to call it toxic what is toxicity so I call toxicity at a level when it has a negative impact on the system and at a biochemical level because you can't argue with the biochem you can interpret all sorts of stuff and everyone has their opinion. That's why I keep coming back to biochemistry. At a biochemical level, 4 g or one teaspoon of glucose starts to have a negative impact on the system. And it has that effect at number one uh at a glycoalix level. So at every single blood vessel, it has it at an insulin level because insulin when you intake glucose then the body produces insulin to get it out of the system. And then insulin itself has problems with affecting it's a growth hormone for tumors. It's a growth it's a hormone related to making us fatter. And it's also related back into the inflammation argument again particularly through joints and cartilage and and inflaming um uh the sinovia sites within a joint. So that's another level. And then you've got the other thing is that if you have too much glucose in your diet, you end up pushing that into fructose and back into the fructose pathway. So that's part of the perfect storm. You then add in the polyunsaturated seed oils. So oils and fats are exactly the same apart from their temperature that their their substance at room temperature. So an oil is liquid at room temperature. A fat is solid at room temperature. That's sort of the but none the difference between them is the number of double bonds within them. So double bonds create flexibility in between all the bit the the parts of that fat molecule. Double bonds you have the more unsaturated it is. So saturated fat has no double bonds in it. Monounsaturated fats have one double bond in it. Polyunsaturated has multiple double bonds in it. So those double bonds are important if you're a plant because plants tend to have more double more polyunsaturated oils in them which allows them to have flexibility particularly in cold weather so that the the plant can stay alive. But so we as humans are at 37° or what is it 90

>> 98

>> 98.6 I think at in in in Fahrenheit terms that so therefore the fats are sol if saturated fats are mobile in our bodies at that temperature but if if we went back to a room temperature of 20 degrees then we'll just become frozen blobs. So it's important for plants but the trouble is those double bonds come at a price. They each double bond is a point of flexibility, but it's also a point of weakness and they can become oxidized. Now, if you're a plant, it's not really much of a problem because plants are plants. But as humans if we actually have an abnormal amount of polyunsaturated oil in our fat fats in our polyunsaturated fats as a proportion of the fat in the body then that makes it prone to oxidation and that creates points of oxygen free radical release and then points of inflammation. Now the problem is our modern diet if you go back over time theoretically we probably had about 1 to 2% omega 6 and omega 9. So the omega six and the number six I mean six double bonds nine double bonds you got omega 12s which 12 but the omega sixes we know are important. We we only need a tiny amount of them but they're also the inflammatory ones. So 100 years ago, 200 years ago, we probably had 1% of the fat in our bodies was probably omega6 linoleic acid. Stefan Guillonet published a paper I don't know 10 12 years ago where he he was able to track omega-6 levels linoleic acid levels in I think it was primate studies initially and then following it through where and I I spoke I wrote to him I said why did they start studying this in the 1950s and he said I don't know but someone started it and they did a whole lot of these things so what we've seen over the last 70 years is that theoretical equal 1 to 2% of linoleic acid. Omega6 inflammatory oils have gone from 1 to 2% to 7 to 10% to 20 to 25% and maybe 30% is now of the fat in our bodies is omega6 linoleic acid which is prone to oxidation which is prone to inflammation. The perfect storm is that if we've got our modern diet, you know, the standard Australian diet, standard American diet, you the sad concept is highly inflammatory because it's high in sugar, it's high in carbohydrates, which if you're insulin resistant, 50% of that gets flipped back into fructose anyway. And then the fat that's produced as a result of the deposition of that too much carbohydrate and the deposition of fructose is now instead of being 1% omega6 is now 25 30% omega6. So it means nearly a third of the fat in our bodies is actually inflamed. It also means to be and I got myself into a bit of hot water. I don't mind saying it. It also means at an embryionic level at conception the one that first cell and the second and the fourth and as it that doubling goes out is being built out of inflamed cells prone to oxidation. And is it any wonder we now see a rising rate of birth defects? And that's well documented particularly in women with gestational diabetes that we see that at the term that the just at the the abnormalities that are found are related to environmental and not genetic. So they're more likely to have um birth defect u cardiac defects are more likely to have uh learning issues. They're more likely to be inflamed children more likely to have obesity and more likely to have ADHD. It's just fascinating that we've changed the environment of a baby from what the food the mother eats. Now it's not to give a guilt trip to mothers. We've actually already apologized to our children, you know, even though the youngest is 30 now, but we said, "Sorry about your diet 30, 40 years ago." But it's just I'm just fascinated by the topic because we've got a modern society which is completely out of control with sickness. I I don't call it a health industry. I call it a sickness industry. We've got people with modern diseases which we're seeing on the increase. Whether or not we're looking at all of the autoimmune diseases, cardiovascular disease, dementia, the childhood behavioral problems, the depression, they're all related to inflammation. They've all been on the increase since we been on this highly processed diet. As the more we've moved away from an our ancestral diet, as Ken Barry will say, the proper human diet, you know, a natural food diet, the more we've moved away from it, the more we've got into more more troubles. And all I've said is, okay, what are the three big biggest components of that? I think it's sugar, fructose, highly processed uh carbohydrates, and seed oils. And that's the model. Everything else, whether or not we're talking about light and exercise and sleep, is actually secondary. I'm not saying they're not important, but one of the ways I describe it is if you've got a car. You've got a car. Have you got a car? Have you got cars?

>> I thought you were asking. Uh,

>> yes, I do have a car.

>> You do have a car. All right. If you put petrol in it or diesel?

>> Uh, petrol.

>> All right. Do you ever put a little bit of diesel in it?

>> No, never.

>> Well, a little bit in moderation won't hurt. Of course it will. Okay. So we pay pay more attention to what fuel we put in our cars than we put in our bodies. Now if you put the wrong fuel in your car, then you are going to spend more time having it serviced,

>> right?

>> And it doesn't matter how much time you spend washing the outside of the car, vacuuming, cleaning the tires, checking the tires, doing changing the oil. If you keep putting the wrong fuel in the car, it is not going to run properly.

>> Right.

>> Well, welcome to the modern world. let's get back to putting the right fuel in our bodies and then reassessing what needs to be done after that. And the number of people as you know who actually just change their diet and move away from ultrarocessed food, cut down the amount of sugar, cut down the amount of garbage food going in, cut down the seed oils, see an improvement. Some of those improvements will occur very very quickly. Like you can get control of type 2 diabetes within days. But what's interesting, the halflife of linoleic acid, the omega6 fatty acids, we don't know, but it's probably around four years.

>> Wow.

>> How do you determine that?

>> Well, that's a really good question. Professor Glenn Lawrence in New York, he's a professor of oils. I think he's retired now. He wrote a book about oils. And I found this article where he was talking about the length of and so I wrote wrote to him and said, "Look, I'm really interested in this topic. I'm trying to work out what the half-life is." So I said, "Read my book." So I read his book. Um few hundred pages. I mean, pretty dry reading. Nothing personal, Glenn, but it was pretty dry reading. Bit like Tom Seaf's book on cancer. Really good, but pretty dry reading. Anyway, Glenn, I wrote to him and I said, "Look, I've read your book. I know a lot more about oils now, but you still haven't answered my question, which is what's the halflife of linoleic acid? And we had a bit of a discussion. He said it's probably about four years. It's really hard to work out. So therefore, what that means is if you decide to get rid of ultrarocessed food and so I don't dine out. If I do, it's going to be a steak, you know, where I'll find a place to steak or if it's takeaway, it'll be a roast chicken, you know, from farmed roast chicken. So I know it takes about probably four years for the inflammation that inflammatory component of linoleic acid to get out of the body. And we know we can test that you know like if you look at pe people with melanoma they've got higher levels of linoleic acid in their subcutaneous fat than people without melanoma. It always drives me insane that the cancer councils around you know particularly here in Australia say oh avoid the sun with melanoma. No. Well, why do we have an increasing rate of melanoma in non- sunexposed areas? And I think the same's in the US. I've seen some papers about that. So, it it's got nothing to it's not nothing, but it's almost nothing to do with sun. It's actually related, I think, to the omega-6 fatty levels. At least there's a relationship there, which starts to explain the problem. So, in practical terms, and my my sister-in-law was diagnosed with, and I've got her permission to speak about it, was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, and she reluctantly agreed with her brother-in-law and said she'd try out this low carb keto sort of thing. And almost to the day, at 4 years, she lost all of her symptoms.

>> Right?

>> Again, that's anecdote. Now, I've got, you know, many

>> We have a couple in our practice, too. We have a couple in our practice, though. They're anecot. and not MS but these are the N equals1 studies these are the pilot studies we say okay

>> if you we're trying to reduce inflammation in your body but hang on just based on biochemistry and linoleic acid which we know to be the oxidizable inflammatory uh oil it might take four years and it's just interesting I think people do on their own journey keep improving for that period of time on the flip side we're all getting older in the same fouryear period so it all balances itself out.

>> Um, and on an informed consent aspect, you know, we've now got to in society where, you know, people sort of going, if I eat too much sugar and crap food, it's not not good for me. But we've got sugar. People are aware of sugar. We start people starting to be aware of carbs because people hear about low carb and Australia, we've got low carb beer. It doesn't mean I'm advocating alcohol, but still we've got it there. Women's Weekly, you've got a Women's Weekly version in the US. Women's Weekly here in Australia have at least three low carb cookbooks now and keto cookbooks. So it it's mainstream. But what I want now is just moved in. I'd like to see in next 5 to 10 years that people say I if I'm going to have polyunsaturated seed oils in my diet, it's going to make me sick. You know, that's maybe the next step in my journey. So our daughter is 30. She's 15. So I've been on this journey for a while. I remember getting off the plane with her in Melbourne. She said, "Oh, Dad, can I have some Macka's chips?" You know, because she wanted chips. And I went, "Oh, you know, carbs and oils and everything." Then she she's a tall leggy blonde, gorgeous. And um a father can say that about his daughter. Okay. And then she said to me, she looked me in the eye and she said, "Dad," and so this is called informed consent. She said, "Dad, I promise not to get pregnant for four years." Now, there is no father in the world when he's got a 15year-old tall longleggy blonde who promises never to get pregnant pregnant for four years who isn't going to pay out $2.50. So, she made in an informed decision that she knew she was having a polyunsaturated seed oil because dad rants and raves about stuff. And so, you know, okay, I went fine, you've made an informed decision. A bit like smokers. When patients used to come come to see me, I say, do you smoke? And then they'd go, yes. I go, "Well, why?" So, and they'd say, "I'm anid. I'm an idiot." So, I go, "Now we've established that. We know continue the conversation." So, I think we're at that situation with nutrition. If you know it's if you decide to put the wrong fuel in your car, then there are consequences over a long period of time. If you want to put the wrong food in your body, there are consequences in over time. And the trouble with what eating fresh local you know I think I can't remember had I had I described last time I just rather than complain and moan about it I like to come up with answers. So I I came up with this nutritional model of modern disease but I also came up with I've written the dietary guidelines for the world and the animal kingdom in one sentence.

>> Okay. You didn't bring that up last time but go ahead.

>> No again I try to come up with something which everyone can take away.

>> Sure. Sure. And it's eat fresh, local, seasonal, whole food based on your culture and environment, avoiding added sugar and processed food. End of topic. That's it. And I have described low carb. I've described keto. I've described an animal-based diet there. Because you think about fresh, local, seasonal,

>> you know, plant-based products are not available 365 days a year. Certainly not in temperate climates. If high carb foods tend to be more around the equator.

>> Sure. And so there's so much in that fresh local seasonal based on your culture and environment because we also know with latitude coming back to fructose metabolism those small dense LDL fragments which are created from having too much fructose in your diet end up in the subendothelial level of a blood vessel wall because it's clearly not at a 10year-old sorry level but it ends up in the blood vessel wall and they are metabolized by foam cells which under the influence of vitamin D. So if you're in a low vitamin D environment, you don't have the ability to metabolize the byproducts of the fructose. So therefore, we shouldn't be eating high amounts of fruits and honeys and sugars the further you are away from the latitude. And people say, oh, there are some groups who get can have high amounts of fructose and you can get away with it. The Citavans in in the Melanesia islands have high carbohydrate diets, but they don't have high seed oil diets. And it's that perfect storm of fructose, carbohydrate, and seed oils. So, you can sort of get by with having one or two of them in higher amounts. The moment you combine all three, we're stuffed literally this way. And

>> I think that's the question in our community. So most of the people watching this channel or this podcast, they do eat lower carb, heavy on the meat. And then there's the question then in that nuance of is it the seed oils, is it the fructose, the glucose? And and then we'll get swayed one way or another. Do you think if you had to remove one that it's more seed oils that's causing obesity and metabolic syndrome or it's more fructose? Do you think it's both? Hey guys, just a really quick break. Nutrition with Judy's private practice is now called Empower Functional Health. I started as a nutritional therapist, but we have become much more all-encompassing. At Empower Functional Health, we do functional medicine, chronic illness, autoimmune, gut health, environmental illness such as SERS, mold illness, lime. Regardless of all these names, the goal for us is always to get you root cause healing answers. And of course, carnivore, the all meat elimination diet is always on the table. Food, the right food is always medicine. We offer functional tests, prescription meds, and really everything to get you closer to root cause where you can just eat the meats you enjoy and live the life that you are meant to symptom free. The goal is to get off meds, supplements, and everything else that your body no longer needs support in. our practice, whether it's nutrition with Judy, sharing podcasts and free content, or our private practice, Empower Functional Health, our goal is to support you guys in the barbell theory. We give a lot of free content, our evidence-based research. We don't use Substack. We give all our stuff away for free and we interview with the best and make it super tactical so you have clinical pearls that you could walk away with and try in your own healing journey. And then we work with some people and a smaller subset one-on-one to provide that level of personalized care. And as we heal these people that are chronically ill, we find these clinical pearls and golden nuggets that we can share then more publicly so that we can make wellness for all. Hopefully the content and the guides and the free stuff we give out is enough for you to heal. But if it's not, you can always come and work with us in our private practice so that you can get more personalized care. If you want to learn more, make sure to check out empowerfunctionalhealth.com.

Okay, I I'll answer that in two parts. The first thing I was one of the very first antismoking people, doctors here in Australia. I wouldn't operate on people if they were smoking. You know, elective major surgery particularly requiring bone graft, major spinal surgery. And I said, "No, I still do all the trauma, but if you're a smoker, stop your smoking beforehand."

>> Right?

>> And we're well aware of the smoking issues, Bradford Hill criteria, 25 times increased risks of lung cancer. It huge topic. Someone asked me after all my, you know, campaigning against smoking and now about nutrition, what do I think's worse for the body? And I think it's nutrition because that set if you set up the inflammatory millu then the smoking comes in and creates trouble.

>> Sure. Sure.

>> The other things come in. So, you know, after all of my campaigning for 35 years about smoking, and I still do, I think nutrition is worse. Of which the big three, I think the inflammatory component of the seed oils is the is the major one because you can get by with higher amounts of fructose, particularly if you're in a in an equatorial climate and you've got lots of vitamin D. You can get by with carbohydrate intake. You're just going to get fatter. You're going to have a higher insulin amount. And insulin itself, as I said, tumor promoting and has immunity issues and has hypertension issues. But the byproduct of both of those is fat production. And you can get guy with being fat. Oh, we can talk about calling people fat. Will we come back to that?

>> Yes. Yes. Please, please feel free to talk about it. Yes.

>> It's just a it's a tangent, but it's really important tangent. Um, but the moment you add in the industrial seed oils the the polyunsaturated seed oils that creates the points of oxidation the oxygen free radicals that creates the inflammation and that's the thing which is the the modern disease in a timeline thing. Imagine how horrible it would be to be married to me. Okay, Blind and I have been married for nearly 45 years and I've been on this journey for a while now. But I started talking about sugar. So the first thing I went in the pantry okay all the sugar goes and then I went I realized the seed oil component she oh now the seed oils have got to go and then the next phase of that was it you know oh actually it's the carbohydrates there's this polyol pathway where the glucose get converted back into the fructose oh we've got to get rid of the carbohydrates you know so imagine every couple of months coming home and I'm ripping through the pantry and the fridge and everything and she looked at me and she said if you take my bacon away you're out

>> my husband been told me at one point he's like, "I think you would feel most secure by living in a bubble." So, I totally get it. I totally get it. Um,

>> no, no. Well, we I do live in a bubble. I live in Tasmania. We We live in Tasmania, which has got access to all the fresh, local, seasonal, whole food. Other daughter has married into the Midlands farmers. So, um, last night we had lamb chops for dinner. And when I say we had lamb chops for dinner, that was it.

>> It was just cook them outside. So much fat gets we have it in we cook outside in the garden so the fat can spray everywhere and then we sit down and have lamb chops with salt and pepper. People say what about what else did you have? Was it no we just had lamb chops and then you got grease everywhere and whatever. So

>> well let me ask you about the carbohydrates part. So I think a lot of research from Dr. Richard Johnson who obviously does all the fructose the polyol pathway. He talks about inflammation

>> and the uric acid stuff,

>> right? And the uric acid. Yes. And all how all of that can cause inflammation and oxidation, but even with obesity, you mentioned that people can become obese and maybe it's not really an issue, but there are obesogens or fat cells that actually can produce inflammatory cytoines or, you know, inflammation signals to the body. And I mean, until we have actual studies that show a baby is born and they never touch seed oils, a baby is born and they never touch fructose and glucose, we'll never know fully. But it's

>> you cannot you cannot do this study. I I call it a nutritional model of modern disease. It's a model. I will never be able to prove it to be correct or incorrect. So it's a strange you know inverted commas scientific phenomenon to call it a model that can never be proven because what you've described is that and in fact that study needs to be done on identical twins

>> right that would

>> separate who who are kept together so you keep their environment together but one's fed this and one's it's just not going to happen but that an individual the person who we're talking to or chatting to or wishes to embrace part of this if they do that then they they have any their own inequal was one study and that's why we you the two of us are having this discussion because that N equals one study is N equals millions now because when people reduce the amount of sugar if you reduce the amount of fructose in your diet straight away we know come Richard's work is brilliant on uric acid

>> I've got a copy of one of his books he signed it for me and it was just a lot of time for Richard he's getting grayer though he's getting grayer than you and I okay so sorry Richard if you ever do listen but I did notice your hair was a lot grayer last time this time.

>> Maybe he doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. He research.

>> Yeah. And his pathways around you. So if you reduce fructose, sorry. If you get rid of sugar out of diet, your blood pressure comes down almost immediately.

>> Right. Right.

>> So you've got to be careful if someone decides to give up. They're on all these anti-hypertensive medications and they give up sugar straight away. It has they can actually have a hypo. They can drop their blood pressure too much. And that's literally just taking sugar out. The same thing with people like with diabetes who who reduce their carbohydrate intake. Straight. You got to be really careful with what medication they're taking because if they're on certain medications, they can get into real really big strife very quickly. So I think it's just fascinating how quickly diet can change. But on the other side of it, as I said about the omega-6 fatty acids, the polyunsaturated seal, it may take four years. So each individual will be on their own journey with this. They'll be on their individual journey. We've got um as we've got grandchildren, our grandchildren were low carb pregnancies. They're relatively low carb children. They still have a little bit of fruit. One of them is a complete and utter sugar addict. When she gets near sugar, right? She doesn't get it, but when she gets it, she's just

>> frenzy. So, it's really interesting because I actually will think I say I think sugar drives behavior and there's some biochemical pathways that do it, but that's innate and it's part of our our um evolutionary diet. We we're meant to eat sugar when it becomes seasonal. And Richard again Johnson, you know, talks quite amount of this about the fact we it's a frenzy of eating when sugar becomes available naturally. Remember, it's actually only the end of autumn, beginning of winter when fruit comes into season. And it's meant to drive us crazy. We see that in primates and monkeys. So that we stuff our faces so we can get fat for winter hibernation,

>> right? And then again, as we burn up all of our fat towards the end of that period of time, we wake up out of our hibernation because of the amount of fat that we've actually broken down and our uric acid levels go up and it creates a bit more agitation and we wake up out of hibernation.

>> So, we both agree that fat will that fructose uh and high sugar diets will make you gain weight, but you're saying that it's not necessarily causing oxidative stress and metabolic syndrome. Is that what you're saying? Because I guess where I struggle with all of the omega sixes, and I'm not saying acid oils are good, that like I'm not saying that at all, but I just have seen so many people in the low carb space that will go keto and they don't necessarily remove all seed oils, but they absolutely remove most carbs and then they lose weight. They are metabolically healthy, but they have not removed all PUFAs. And so that is the part that and so their CRP goes down below one and they look insulin sensitive and all all that good stuff. But then there's those advocates that say it is only the PUFAs that are causing the oxidative stress and reactive oxygen species and the illness. So if you just eat sugar, you will be fine as long as you don't have a lick of seed oils. I think the real world person if they have that in their thought of okay well I could still have honey. I could still have a little bit of fruit. On a hard day, they might just end up eating like a Twinkie, which has a little bit of seed oil and that will just derail them to then eat everything and it just stalls their progress when sugar does stimulate some of the dopamine centers that make you still sort of obsess over food. I understand the pufas a to an extent, but I mean could it be that we are cooking these rancid oils six times that causes more more than it just being I I agree that the polyunsaturated fatty acids are very unstable. But could it be the processing the the deodorization the bleaching of these seed oils that are also making it worse than just the omega sixes?

>> I'm just going to say yes to everything. Okay.

>> So I'm not going to answer your question. I I'm actually I've been asked at meetings, you know, how much what how many carbs do I have? How much

>> Okay.

>> How much fat? How much protein? I've got no idea.

>> Yeah. Same.

>> I'm I'm I'm the laidback low carb they call it. You know, I said I I have very little carbohydrate in my diet.

>> Okay. Same.

>> I have a fair amount of protein.

>> Okay.

>> And I have fat to satiety. You know, cheese is my go-to.

>> Okay.

>> And and double cream. And we've got good double cream here. You know, it's not no chemicals.

>> Not American cream. Okay. Correct. Not that's not American cream. We had American cream. You can keep it. All right. What's your half and half over there?

>> There's half and half. There's heavy whipping cream, but if you go to the farms, they do have like the cream with the the layer of fat on top. That's, you know,

>> here's one which just to wind you up. I love lowfat milk.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> So that other people drink it so I can heat the cream.

>> Okay. Oh, okay. Okay.

>> So, there's a market for low-fat milk. So, they take the cream off and give it to me.

>> That's so funny. So if so I'm saying yes to all of it because yes everyone's individual I and if 90% of people did 90% of what we're talking about yeah

>> then we're going to see a 90% improvement in society

>> agreed

>> you know, if you reduce the amount of sugar and you reduce the amount of carbohydrates and in my mind really try and cut back on the seed oils because of their halfife then you're going to be great

>> okay

>> I think it's impossible to be have a diet without any carbohydrate or without any seed oils because it just creeps in. We've got chickens outside.

>> Drives me insane that the grain mix that I would need to give them has some um canola oil in it.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, I I've I've spent 5 years trying to find a seed mix which isn't doesn't have any canola in it. Except if I give them plain wheat, but then they don't produce as much eggs. And it's I mean, I let them free range, so they're eating worms and all sorts of things. and they they're carnivores when you throw them meat scraps. Anybody who has vegetable scraps around in our family cuz not everyone's purely keto. Um the scraps go to the chickens.

>> Yeah.

>> But they do love bitter grain and and it's the grain which sends them into a frenzy. You know, they they'll eat it almost anything except um tofu. It was tofu. I don't know how it came on a Christmas platter or something. Someone bought some tofu into our house. You know, heaven forbid. So, I gave it to the chickens. Even the chickens wouldn't eat the tofu. I thought, "Yes, okay, I found something here. Chickens won't eat tofu." I think I put a put a picture up on Twitter at some time at X or at some time. Look here, chickens won't eat tofu. But it's so Yeah, I look I think people need to get back to eating, you know, jer food. And here in Australia, we are privileged enough here in particularly in Tasmania. I'm privileged enough to have the information about what I should and shouldn't eat. I'm privileged enough to have access to it. I'm privileged enough to have to live in a community which is wealthy enough to have access to it and to eat it. So, it is an absolute tragedy when we don't do that,

>> right? Because there are vast parts of the population on this planet that actually don't have the information, number one. Number two, don't have access to it and then don't have the monetary ability to actually get hold of real food, unprocessed travel miles. Um and and we and you start looking at some of the aid work in Africa um where they're giving them fatty what's it called by it was a few years ago now, but a lot of the aid work they were given plump plumpy nut you heard of plumpy nut so it was it was an American-based charity to actually it's worth a significant amount of money I can't worth millions or but millions of dollars this charity work to give plumpy nut for starving children to fatten them Perfect. However, it's become a staple to make children healthier, but it's just full of seed oils and fat. You know, it's highly high caloric, high inflammation, low nutrition. Sure, it's a short-term starvation product, but it's now becoming a major staple and getting and that that just drives me insane to say, okay, yes, well-intentioned, but now being blown into a marketing thing to make money at the health of children. So, we're so privileged or I am so privileged to have access to real food, fresh, local, seasonal, and therefore it would be of me not to do it. I actually think that and so I encourage people around me to say, "Look, you're so lucky here in Australia. You can get good meat, you can get good produce, and you can support your local farmer and your local community." And I'm lucky because we've got farmers down the road that I can access. You know, John rang the other day and said, "Look, um, how much room have you got in your freezer? Would you like half a pig?" I went, "Okay, so we got half a pig coming." So long I don't have to cut it up. So it's going to that half a pig's coming at I think it's 30 odd kilos of pork which we need to cut up and I can guarantee that'll be pasture fed. It won't it'll be well pasture fed because you can't get pork without finishing it off with some sort of grain. They don't get fat enough. I know some people have tried to raise pig just range

>> and um they can't do it without you know they end up with this lean little but again that's the animal kingdom the animal kingdom you very rarely see a fat animal

>> right

>> an obese animal who's living naturally you know sure you get some problems you get them with dog with cats and with pets because they get fed I looked at pet food So, we got a dog a year ago and yes, it's a travesty. I would say the food that's in uh dog food and and I had somebody on that talked about how a lot of these animal foods, they're allowed to use dead carcasses from flooding in their and say it's chicken even though it's not chicken that humans could eat, but they have a picture of chicken that a human would eat. And so we are feeding animals so poorly and that's why they're getting cancers and they're dying way early compared to even 20 years ago with all the injections we give them as well as the food that we're feeding them with seed oils and processed food and then they inject it with all the processed synthetic vitamins and minerals. It's it's it's a travesty honestly. It is

>> so many things in that the um you know, the food no, the major um dog or pet food manufacturer here in Australia and I think it's in the US. Do you know who that is?

>> Is it um Nestle? No. U Purina

>> Mars. Mars.

>> Oh, is it? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. The candy bar company.

>> The confectionary company. Okay. There's a major food producer for our pets.

>> They're also taking over the vets by the way. Like Purina. Yeah. It's uh anyways I'll just

>> num number two Belinda and I presented to a Senate inquiry about food labeling.

>> Okay.

>> Um, but related to if you put a picture of a chicken or a cow

>> Mhm.

>> or um a pig on a food label. And so even if like so it's particularly related to the plant-based foods and that's not fair if it's you know plant if it's a chick it's not chicken it's just plant-based chicken plant-based beef plant-based porks if in Australia and again it's probably the same in the US and 49% of women in Tasmania and 46% of men are functionally illiterate. Scary number. Scary number.

>> Has that increased over the years or decades?

>> Uh, a little bit, but that's functional literacy rates are very poor. It'll be the same.

>> Oh, cuz they can't read.

>> So, they can't read the label. So, if you look at a picture and it's got a chicken on it, that is a chicken for nearly half the population. It's cows, beef. B sausages with a cow on beef sausages until proven otherwise because it has a picture on. So we presented this data at a Senate inquiry and when people say I'm I'm just one person I can't do anything. We presented information and then actually presented to the Senate inquiry about functional literacy rates as and as a result of that they changed the food labeling laws in Australia which about to be turned back again but nonetheless for the last 5 years the food the plant-based food industry has not been allowed to put a picture of a chicken a cow or a pig on it.

>> Oh that's amazing.

>> So you know and people say oh I can't do anything. I said well yes you can. This is what we did. we've been able to change the food labeling laws and get the whole Senate to actually change pathway based around some pretty important information which they didn't understand. You know that that's a good thing about government. On the flip side, at our state level, we had an election a couple of years ago and I put glucose monitors on both sides of politics and they lost 50 kilos over, you know, over 100 pounds between the candidates and their teams with them glucose. So I, you know, on my phone, I've got the got the app and I'm watching their glucoses and when they jump up, I'll say, you know, depending if they're men or women, they got different sort of emojis and

Uh, what the have you just eaten? And, um, and just with monitoring and, you know, and then keeping them on track, they lost 50 kilos. And then I had, so I said, "Okay, now when they, you know, that way whoever's in power," I said, "So good enough for you. What about for the people?" Right?

You know, we're making no headway with government. You know, it's almost as though they're not interested in making us healthier.

One thing I found when I was doing the research for the book was there are billions of dollars of taxpayer money in the US going to subsidize corn. So, corn is so cheap in America. It goes to Mexico, Korea, Japan. They're the biggest, um, importers of US corn because it's so much cheaper to just buy it from us. Obviously, it impacts their farming, but it's so cheap that a lot of farms will just make it and burn it because they just make money. And imagine if they, if we could just make a stink about glucose and fructose and a lot of these high fructose corn syrup and even the seed oils are causing all these issues and if we could then turn that into, what if they subsidized meat, right? And so you don't even need a lot of meat to not be anemic anymore. And if they could do that instead of throwing those, I, I forgot the, the food that you talked about in other countries, but I mean, how much more amazing would that be? And a lot of that even goes to the ethanol production and for fuel, I think. But if we could use that, biouels, for meat, I mean, we could help so many people and so that's the part I don't understand. Like, why are we not doing that?

Well, we, we need to change our mindset about that. Um, you know, just like the arable lands, maybe 4% of the, of the, of the surface of the planet, whereas we've got 20 to 25% of the land is grassland, which is underutilized, right? And it could be farmed and grazed and and grazed efficiently in an appropriate fashion. The meat industry here in Australia has made a proposal to farm to run cattle through the, the national forests to graze them down in a proper fashion, which would reduce our fire risk dramatically.

Right. Right. Right. What do they, what has happened?

Oh, nothing. You know, the same thing. Why? I don't know. Why is this happening in California? Every time I look, not on news, but California is always burning. I go, put a cattle through the forest and keep the, the brush down and do it in a in a in a sustainable way. Um, it, it's, it's sort of, I'm going to, I'm going to tarnish you with the same brush that Belinda tarnished me with. She said to me, 15 years ago, I said, "Oh, this is so obvious, okay? We get, it'll, it'll turn around, just, it'll be all over in six months." And she said, and you and I are so naive, okay? Like, it's a complete brainer. Put the right fuel in the car, it'll run better. Okay? A plant-based nutrition is nutritionally incomplete. Animal-based nutrition is nutritionally complete. It will. It's a, why are we subsidizing the plant-based industries and not the animal-based industries?

Everything is more, you know, when they saw it's not more.

Um, do you know Peter Bellis?

Peter Balis. No.

Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. He was on my channel many years ago. Yes.

Yeah. Know Peter? Peter's a gem. Stay with us. And, um, when he started talking, he'd actually send me his videos beforehand, okay? What do you think? How can I improve? And whatever. And so, but Peter stayed with us. Peter's got a three-page, four-page document which undermines scientifically every vegan argument. Just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Um, I don't know if he asked him to update it about a year ago. He hasn't done it. So, I need to charge him for when he stayed with us. Okay, I'll charge you accommodation if you don't do it. But each one of those vegan arguments is actually just so easily undermined. But it's what you keep hearing in the press.

And this is where Belinda's work is so important. You need to get her back on. You just, her research. So we're talking about the science. We're talking about the basics and the understanding. Belinda's work has been for years now. Why is that message not going through? Why are we going blue in the face talking about the science and the sustainability and the benefits when it's not getting through governments? It's not getting through communities, it's not getting through, uh, bureaucracies and all of the, um, the lobbying that's going on. And her work is just phenomenal and and how much it's actually related to culture, related to religious influence, related to corporate influence. But it's, and I'm not just get her back on, you know. She's, her, her brain is so full. That's why she started a Substack and it's called Truth Zones, you know, and just she just goes into it because, you know, but like, you know how hard it is to write a book. I've written a book, you know, you're in the process of trying to get the damn thing published and it's driving you insane and I'm surprised you've got hair, but most time be tearing it out.

Oh, I, I felt it quite a bit this time around. But yes.

So Belinda's because her, a lot of her topics are a little bit disparate, but they're all combined. She's doing the Substack.

She does such a great story. That's she is so powerful in bringing everything together. So, and I will absolutely have her on again. Yes.

So, that I'm just free plug for my wife, but you know, we, it's.

No, I love Belinda. I love her. So, yes, happy to have.

Not as much as I do. Someone's.

Agree with that. When you're having a debate with someone, I've changed my tact rather than I've been very good at the full frontal attack and we've made some big headways by good cop, bad cop here in Australia. So low carb or therapeutic carbohydrate reduction is now the national strategy for diabetes management in Australia.

Been adopted as best practice by the Australian Diabetes Society, which is the endocrinologists' society here in Australia, and it's been adopted by Diabetes Australia as best practice. We're the first country in the world to have gotten therapeutic carbohydrate reduction free national strategy, Australian Diabetes Society. Now, there's a whole half an hour story about how much work was involved in that. How much battling was done. Good cop, I'm the bad cop. Nothing like going into a conference and explaining to 50 endocrinologists how to suck eggs and their jobs been their lifetime career sucks and that they're completely wrong. And then the flack that follows from that because I'm, you know, to be fair, this is what we're talking about. If we're right about what we're talking about, it means the vast majority of doctors, health educators, medical practitioners, nursing practitioners have been giving the wrong information for their entire careers.

Right?

And the last time the medical profession ever said they were wrong was over the thalidomide. They really struggle. And I think when I looked it up, the number of thalidomide victims in the world is somewhere about 10 to 15,000.

Who lost their limbs as a result of that drug.

Now, there are 10 to 15,000 people who lose their limbs from amputations, from diabetes complications, every day in the world.

Every day.

Give or take.

Every day. And this is infinitely more of a problem than thalidomide. So.

But the trouble is, we know type two diabetes, you're able to bring it into remission or improve it dramatically for the vast majority of people with type two just by changing their diet, and it happens immediately.

Right?

Why isn't it happening? Well, these are the vested interests. This is the cultural norms. This is how we've all been led to believe. You know, the whole five a day, you got to have your fruit and veg was completely made up. That's in my talk. Is fruit good or bad for you? And that's a combination of my work. Zoe Harkham told me, she, you came up with the idea of where the five a day came from because at that conference in the on the Baja Peninsula in 1999, I think it was in California, where they decided to come up with the five a day. Someone in the audience said, someone on the podium said, "Can anyone tell me, you know, any idea how many we should have?" He held up five fingers and said, "Oh, five a day. That's probably it." There. That's as much science as behind the five a day.

Some countries it's seven a day. Some countries it's three plus two. There's no science behind five a day. It's completely made up BS. Um, and when you, as I say, you know, I said to you offline, you know, I said, um, you know, I've developed a vitamin D deficiency because of all the rabbit holes I'm down. You know, it's just, I'm not really vitamin D, but just, ah, god, it just. So, therefore, when you're debating someone or having a a discussion with someone, I, I think it's really important to find out what hat they're wearing, even if they don't know what hat they're wearing. And a lot of times they, they may be under the influence of a vested interest. They may be, you know, working for some lobbying group. I say to people, if you want to debate this, ring Belinda, contact Belinda to find out what hat the other people are wearing before you debate them. So when I had this meeting with the endocrinologists, the two professors I was up against, I stood up there at the beginning and said, "I am not under the, I have no financial ties with A, B, C, D, E, F, G," which are pharmaceutical companies and food industry companies. And I mentioned all of those because they were the financial in conflicts of interest of the two people I was debating against.

Interesting.

And they didn't raise them as their conflicts of interest.

I did.

I did say, I'm, you know, I've had one paid lecture for the meat industry. You know, otherwise, I'm independent. And I should declare, I'm, I'm a red meat ambassador here in Australia and I've been paid zero to be a red meat ambassador. And I don't even know what it means, but they pop, throw my name up from time to time. So contact Belinda, find out what their vested interests are. There was an interesting meeting in the United Kingdom six months ago and I won't go into it there, but the one person speaking there was smart enough to bring contact Belinda and find out who he was debating against.

And I went, that's smart because Belinda was able to tell you more about the people he was debating against than they did find with normal research, and she'll do it in a day. So therefore, when I'm debating with people or having discussions, and it might be at a function or a dinner party, we don't get invited to dinner parties now because they don't have any food for us. So, but if you, I went to, we went to a wedding recently and there was someone who was completely down an opposite path to me and I realized I'm changing my pathway of how I debate this topic. So, actually, I'm actually not interested in your opinion. You know, I'm, this is me. I'm actually not interested in your opinion, but I'm really interested in how you got to your opinion because if you don't know how you got to your opinion, I'll let you know. And it's really interesting in this whole nutrition field that you tell me where you take a stand on something, I'll tell you where you got your information.

It's fascinating. Yeah.

It really pisses them off. So in Australia, piss, pissed off in the Australian Oxford dictionary is slang. In the English Oxford Oxford dictionary, it's vulgarism. I don't know what happens in the Websters and the American one. Look, someone could look it up and put it in the comments. Okay. So, I can say pissed off and it's actually just a slang here in Australia.

Okay. Okay.

So, it really gets under the skin of other people when you actually start undermining because then you start questioning. They start questioning themselves if they're smart. How did I get to my opinion? Right?

How did this character get to his opinion? Because we're, we're, there's so much information, misinformation, and disinformation out in the world. Bearing in mind, the one of the, there was a thing put out which ultimately probably tagged back to the World Economic Forum a few months ago that I am the number one misinfluencer outside of the US, uh, and Europe. Belinda's in there in the top 20. Um, you know, terrible people like Shawn Baker's on the list and, you know, Frederick Lo, and whatever, but it's like, it's a real, I'm really proud to be a misinfluencer. So just letting you know, all of the people watching today, myself and Belinda have been described in the top, we're the number one ranked misinfluencer couple in the world. Okay. So please don't pay any attention to anything that I've said today.

You know, there's a conversation about is high cholesterol bad? And, uh, I think there's nuance where small particle LDLs, uh, are a little bit more inflammation provoking and and inflammatory. So can you talk a little bit about, first, what was the tangent about obesity you wanted to come back to? And then tell me about how fructose impacts LDL particles and why some cholesterol can be a sign of insulin resistance or metabolic syndrome.

I found it really interesting that there's been a stigmatization of obesity. You're not allowed to call someone fat.

Right. Well, there's a lot of words you can't use anymore. Well, I feel like this administration has loosened that a little bit, but yes.

It has. But so I went, that's really interesting. I, because part of that debate with the endocrinologist, I was called, I was said, "Oh, you're a fat shamer." I said, "I'm not a fat shamer." In fact, I've had so many patients over the years saying, "Oh, Dr. Fetty, that's the nicest way I've been told that I was fat." You know, and I've been really politically correct trying to sort of work around how to actually raise this into the conversation about their joints and their, their issues, their inflammation, insulin resistance, and I actually think I've been pretty tactful about how to do it. So, for me to be accused of being a fat shamer. Oh, so I, I started researching it. It was really interesting. So the, the stigmatization of obesity when you look into it, for the last 12 years, significant funding of stigmatization of obesity and using bad words like calling people fat and the concepts of, you know, almost, um, healthy at any weight, has been funded significantly by Novo Nordisk.

Oh, I'm not surprised. Of course. No, but so again, you're not surprised. But then Novo Nordisk produces Ozempic. It's now the most valued company in Europe, even though it's off-label use around the world, and particularly in Europe. And what's the crazy thing about Ozempic when we start looking down the pathways of it? It actually works in similar pathways to ketones. You know, it's that's a whole hour discussion. Well, so why take a, why take an injection? Or they're trying to create a tablet form of it now when you can do it naturally by eating real food and supporting your local community, you know, duh, another topic. Um, the cholesterol that, so that's it. This is like the fact that we're not allowed to call someone fat anymore was actually changing language by the pharmaceutical industry. And how clever are they?

To fund that research for 12 years. They had a product in line to go.

So if you can turn obesity, which is a lifestyle problem, sure, there are environmental factors, but it is a lifestyle problem which requires a lifestyle management, not a drug management. But if you can turn a lifestyle problem into a disease which requires a medical management, it is worth billions and billions and billions. And that's what we're doing. But their marketing and that whole stigmatization and political correctness wokeness around language is actually a ploy. And again, it's like, breakfast is the most important meal of the day. That was actually came from Kellogg's Cornflakes and it was a made-up concept. You know, how this language like fiber is the most, so important. We've got a, we had a press release here in Australia about three years ago by David Gillespie, who was the assistant minister of health at the time, about how we need to increase fiber in the diet. Remember, I think we've got the cereal industry on sugar. We've got the cereal industry on carbs, and their last bastion of survival is fiber.

So here's a press release by the shadow, the assistant minister of health, not the shadow minister, saying we need to increase fiber in our diet. At the bottom of the press release, it said, "Written by Kellogg's." I'm not making this stuff up. I always say to people, just fact-check me, you know? Right? Is we've got just, and so on in in Australia, the medical practitioner, your MD in the US, their software, the backend software is Medical Director and Best Practice, and it, the resources in relation to nutrition have been supplied by Sanitarium and Kellogg's, which is breakfast cereal companies. It's all about in more fiber, more grains and cereals in your diet. Doesn't matter if you got irritable bowel, mental health disease, disease, cardiovascular disease, that they've kindly supplied that as the backend material on 98% of doctor's computers here in Australia. Long-term lobbying passively. It's just.

So do you think that fiber, the essential need of fiber that has, you know, been in the nutrition space for so long now, that's from the cereal industry? Because I've actually never looked that up.

Yeah. No, it is. It is. So, so many different parts.

I mean, it makes total sense. But.

If you've had a baby.

Yeah. Yes.

And did you breastfeed them?

Yes. Yes.

Okay. So, did you ever have a change their nappy?

Uh, yes.

Right. There was poo everywhere.

Yes.

Right. Big sloppy poo.

Yes. On a no fiber diet.

Right. Right.

Bind you in breast milk, there is a little bit of, um, uh, non, non-digestible fiber somehow in the, in the glute, in the way the.

It's very, very like next to none though. Yes.

Next to none. So on an incredibly low fiber. And so people have got very irritable bowels, they go on low fiber diets to settle their bowel down. No, I know.

There's so many talks by, um, Zoe Harkham again, um, Paul Mason have done these really well. Uh, even David Gillespie, the author, has done a talk on this as well. So, I mean, but when you realize that the whole, I think it's a fiber myth, you know, and I think the whole thing about the gut microbiome, again, this is controversial, it's chicken and egg. I think you'll have, if you've got a wide variety of foods in your diet without chemical inputs, you'll end up with a healthy gut microbiome.

I agree. I agree.

If you have, of which we're saying, oh, you got to have more fiber to have a healthy gut microbiome. I, I think the fiber thing is a myth because you don't need the fiber to have actually health. Belinda's banned me from doing it. Um, again, you'd be, you'd be all delighted because I said, "How about I send a picture of what I do in the toilet bowl and put it on Instagram every day on a low-fiber no-grain diet?" Said, "Don't you dare." So that's you will all be very happy with that. Think we go down to some random topics here.

Okay, let's go back to cholesterol. So the.

Okay, so my cholesterol, okay, my question, so lots of people tell me about cholesterol, particularly doctors, they say, "Are you talking about high fat?" I actually call it low carb, healthy fat. But none, you're talking about increasing people's fat. What happens to their cholesterol? What's my response?

Well, it goes up.

No, so my response to anyone who asks that question, I say, "What is cholesterol?"

What is cholesterol? How many, okay, go.

Ahead. What is cholesterol? I'm not going to, I'm going to ask you. I'm so a doctor. How many doctors have been able to answer me with what cholesterol is?

I would assume that most people would know that it's a faxy, a fat waxy substance that your body needs. Majority of its producing liver.

There's a number of doctors who have been able to answer that who, and there's been two. Okay. And they're both in the low carb space. But every other doctor has not been able to answer the question.

Really? Okay. So therefore, so I say, "You want to put people on a statin for a cholesterol-lowering drug and you don't even know what cholesterol is?"

So cholesterol is a, um, uh, it's actually related to the alcohols, but it's actually the major structural component of our cell membranes, our mitochondrial membranes, and our brains. Boom. It's the precursor to our sex hormones, our steroid hormones, and it's the major precursor to vitamin D. So without cholesterol, we don't have vitamin D production. And it's also the major precursor to bile acids so that we can actually eat.

Yes.

And digest our food. So why on earth do we want to decrease the amount of cholesterol in our bodies? Because I've got papers that will show the higher the cholesterol, the better your brain function, the less likely you are to get dementia, diabetes, and cancer. It's, it's like, it's just every time they lower the cholesterol levels that you require, it's worth billions of dollars to the pharmaceutical industry. And why are we putting people on statins to actually lower their cholesterol? Because that's what we're told, which has got known side effects. 20 to 25% of people with muscle pain, you know, and then you've got the other these things of higher rates of the neurodegenerative disorders, increased rates of diabetes. And whether or not it's directly the statins or whether or not it's the diets. One, my one, my assistant for years would eat crap. He said, "It's okay. I'm going to eat crap food because I'm on a statin." You know, just, you know, it's really inappropriate as a surgeon to punch the lights out on your assistant, but you know, we, Paul, I mention is Paul, don't do it. Why are you on a statin? So people think, "Oh, I can eat what I want and stay on a statin." So, are we going to blame the statins for people thinking they can just get away with eating whatever they want, or are we going to blame the food that they're still eating? I, I don't know quite the answer to unravel it, but I do know that statins are not nearly as good for us as touted by the pharmaceutical industry. They manipulate the numbers. They say 28% reduction of cardiac, you know, of, you know, risk of dying, when in fact, it's actually 3% if you're male over the age of 50 and you've had a heart attack in the past. It's just manipulated numbers. Why women are on statins, I'm uncertain because I'm not aware of any major studies which show major risk reduction for statins in women. So as doctors, they run these pathways of actually, here's what the numbers are, but you got to realize the guidelines have been written by vested interest. The guidelines have been written by people who are working for the pharmaceutical industry or significantly related to the pharmaceutical industry. And I become very cynical about the numbers. Like the Oxford clinical trial, of which they never really released all the the figures, was funded to the tune of tens of billions of dollars by the pharmaceutical industry. Okay. Release the raw data. That's the big Oxford trial that showed the, where's the raw data? Can't get access to it. So we've never really proven that they're as effective. So they use non-s surrogate endpoints. They're not using good endpoints to try and work. Oh, we're reducing the LDLs here. No, this is not actually showing an absolute reduction of of dying. Um, N was it 90% of people with who have major heart attacks don't have an elevated cholesterol?

Right?

It's just, hang on. These should be warning bells to say, why are we reducing cholesterol when there's not a direct relationship? Yet guidelines are written and then the thumb, the doctors in the industry in the system don't want to go against the guidelines because if you go against the guidelines, then you get reported to the medical board. Welcome to my life. You know, I got reported three times because I wouldn't follow the guidelines. I said, "I'm giving individualized patient care." You know, I'm telling people to avoid ultra-processed food. Oh, my god, that's dangerous. You know, but it's. So people are terrified of actually going against the guidelines, but I think the guidelines are making people sicker. You know, I think you've heard me say, if you want to eat by the food pyramid, you're going to die by the food pyramid. And along the way, you're going to look like it.

Right?

You know, everyone's triangular in society. Walk down the street and triangular.

But what about fructose with small LDL particles?

Yeah. So therefore, so that's not, we're not talking about cholesterol now. We're talking a lipid.

The, the lipid transporters. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fine. That's fair. That's fair. But.

No, it's a cholesterol is this.

Okay, that's fair. That's fair.

Such a loose term.

It, it's easy. It's easy for the media to talk about it. But to be fair, cholesterol is a major thing. Like without cholesterol, we all die tomorrow.

Right? No, no, no. Totally.

And we produce, we, 99% of it we produce ourselves. You know, it doesn't matter how much you eat. You don't, it's just we produce what we need. That's why you got lipid hyperresponders, their lipid lipoprotein level. So that's what if you, people, if they're going to start any drug or have any treatment, they should be having a profile of investigations. You mentioned CRP before, C-reactive protein, to work out the inflammation levels. I would encourage people not to have their standard lipid profile, but they have a thing called a lipid subfraction analysis, which looks at all the lipoproteins in the bloodstream from the big transporting lipoproteins to the small transporting ones, the HDL, the LDL, the VLDL, they're all different. And in the LDL, there's at least six or seven subgroups of which you can look at the spectrum. I'm actually only interested in the small dense LDLs, which is zone six and seven, which become oxidized. We don't, we, we really don't measure that very well. You can look at oxidized LDL numbers, but that's still not. So my lipid subfraction analysis, and I've had it done a couple of times, I have no particles in the small dense LDL. So therefore, do I need to test whether or not they're oxidized or not? No, I don't have any there.

Right.

So, but I presume I don't have any there. Well, a, I don't have any there and I'm also going to presume that if there were any there, I've got a very had virtually no seed oils in my diet for 15 years. So, not, I'm not really fast by it. So, have a lipid subfraction analysis. Have a coronary artery calcium score, which gives an idea of the amount of calcium in the arteries in your blood vessels in your heart. And those two seem to be better predictors of overall cardiac risk than standard lipid profile, standard cholesterol tests, standard even angiograms and stress tests. They're not perfect. I just, I'm part of a back-end discussion group where, you know, people can still slip through that, but I don't think we've got a test to know whether or not you're going to die tomorrow.

Right?

We don't have. And overall, it's just a numbers game. I am healthier now than I was 15 years ago. I'm still ugly, despite what you say, but you know, so, and I'm getting older. And, you know, when I do go to soccer training tonight with my 8-year-old grandson and run around with the kids, Belinda will go, "Oh, you're a bit stiff at the end of the night." You know, I come home and I sit down and go, "Okay." So, you know, I'm not angelic, but I think all you can do is shift the numbers in your favor.

Right?

Over time. And, you know, we're all going to die. There's no, no, the question is, are you going to slide into home base in a flurry of dirt and dust and everything else? Or are you going to be, you know, wheeled in in a wheelchair with a catheter in and dribbling out of the side of your mouth? You know, it's a terrible analogy, but we've got enough age and infirmity in our own family to see, okay, well, who's thriving and who's not. So, yeah, I, ultimately, I suppose I'm the consummate cynic in this space, but I'm also pretty laid back about it. Um, we either make a decision. So I, you know, if I'm asked to talk about it, you, I'm not, I don't, you know, I was accused of, you know, I can still remember I was accused of stealing my resident's lunch at some point in time and not letting them eat it. I said, "What a load of nonsense." Like the person was having a banana and said, "Can I have your banana?" And then on the banana skin, I wrote "six teaspoon of sugar" and gave it back to them. That's hardly stealing someone's lunch. Well, it's just educate. You know, that's one of those things. What's got more sugar in it? Bananas or Coca-Cola?

I guess I would assume Coca-Cola, but I'm.

So, Coca-Cola is 10% sugar, which is the same as an apple. Whereas bananas are 16 to 24% depending on how sweet they are.

Wow.

How ripe they've become. It's just, just, you know, oh, hang on, that's not, you know, that's not right. I go, "Well, go and check it out. It's just that's what it is." But we're marketed. The fruit's good for us. In fact, it's, you know, not.

I, I know that orange juice has more sugar gram for gram than Coca-Cola does or soda does. But if you were to share an ideal way of eating, would it be low carb? Would it be more keto? You know, mostly meat. I'm curious like, after all your research. Yes.

So, I think it's an evolution and again, I've talked about this in some of my talks. So let's say we could take the standard, the population here, and that they're unhealthy. And then so people will then decide to eat by the food pyramid. And I'm taking my own situation here, 20, 25 years ago. Well, I think I just need putting on a few kilos. I think I, you know, in retrospect, I was pre-pre-diabetic, blood pressure was going up a bit, you know, I wasn't on medication, but I, no, that's a bit higher than maybe it should be. Maybe I'm working out stressed. I was on a family block of chocolate per day, you know, because I was running around and eating and working 14, 16 hours a day, and I could burn it all off.

Snickers used to, Snickers used to advertise that you could replace a meal with eating a Snickers, like back.

I know, I know. But it is in calories. I'm not surprised. Yes. Um, so that was me, and I was 20, 18 kilos heavier than I am now. So.

Okay. Wow.

What's that? 40 odd pounds.

And, um, but I was outrunning my bad, my bad diet.

So, I, I, this is me. So, I went, and I went and did the food pyramid, but I was still working hard and running, and it, I wasn't getting healthier. I wasn't getting healthier. And so therefore, I then moved, and this is the journey I say people. Bad diet, standard American diet, SAD diet, move to the food pyramid, but still not healthy. Then you move to low carb, healthy fat, LCHF, low carb. So you move to that, and then that helps the vast majority of people. And then another group will then move towards keto for health reasons or they want a bit more. And then another group will move towards carnivore. So they really get rid of all the plant-based irritants in the diet. And they'll do, and they might fluctuate in and out of carnivore and keto. And that's probably me now.

Uh, when Belinda's at home, we'll have a bit of veg. When she's away, I'm just carnivore. It's so easy. You know.

It's so easy. Yes.

Meat, eggs, cheese, and spices, and and that's it. But then you've got another group who actually at the beginning go vegan, for health reasons, planetary reasons, and all the right reasons. And I don't have time for them because they're well motivated, well-intentioned, not realizing that all of that literature about veganism and supporting veganism is actually a product of the 7th Day Adventist Church. The whole messaging, go back and have a chat to Belinda. And that ve, you know, that whole me vegan propaganda seems good, but over a period of time, they'll get initially healthier because they've taken crap out of their diet. That I feel better because they're well motivated and trying to save the planet and save a few animals along the way. Well, big fuzzy animals as distinct from killing all the tiny animals.

Right. Right.

There's more animal life in one tablespoon of dirt or one tablespoon of manure than there are living creature, living humans on the planet. There's about 8 billion living creatures in a tablespoon of dirt. There's about 8 billion living creatures in a tablespoon of manure, and there's about 8 billion people on the planet. I gave a lecture when I on the way down to Hobart, I stopped and picked up a fresh cow patty and put it in a plastic bag and just said, "Why do we have a cow patty sitting in a plastic?" And so I took it down and I put it on a platter, silver platter that I gave a lecture and then used a soup spoon to point out the 8 billion creatures. So, do not eat soup at the Royal Hobart Yacht Club because one of those spoons has been in a cow patty. It's descriptive, but that I'm trying to say there is many living creatures. So, um, and so that, but over a period of time, the vast majority of vegans, which I think is an elitist thing to do because it's very hard to do without having major supplementation and major food transportation, are going to become nutritionally depleted and then they move to low carb, healthy fat. They put a bit of animal protein back into their diet and they get healthier. Some of those then go onto that journey again and move towards keto and then carnivore. And there are several high-profile speakers in the low carb keto community who used to be vegan.

Yes. Yes.

Give you their names offline if you want, but I, they'll openly admit it. So I find, you know, highly intelligent people who have been on that journey. So it's a journey.

So where are you on that journey?

Well, it would be depend different from someone else finding about it. Someone else with a health problem, not a health problem. A mother, child, a sports person, a non-sports person, uh, athloids versus athletes. You know, I always describe lots. I think I'm an athloid. You know, if you think you're an athlete, but you're not really. You just try to. And we're all on different pathways. But on the whole, find where you are on that pathway and experiment. But the first thing is get rid of the crap food and you move towards low carb, healthy fat. Then you move up keto and you move to carnivore and you move may move backwards and forwards a bit and it's okay. But if you've actually taken 90% of the bad stuff out, your car is going to run a bit better.

No, I love it. I think it really matters. We can have the perfect diet. We could do everything perfect. But if we're not consistent, then it doesn't matter that we're perfect two days and then we're off, you know, partying on processed foods for a few days and then back. I mean, the net is still negative. And so, I think it's even.

That's that's the halflife of the omega-6 fatty acids.

Hey guys, just a quick interruption. I was very curious about the four-year halflife of linoleic acid. And I know that fat in general has a very slow turnover. So I wanted to know about the four years. So while it's true that linoleic acid or omega-sixes probably have a long halflife, even up to four years, I think it's a little bit reductionist only because, and I really wish I knew this information before he brought it up so then I could talk to him about it. But if I can just give you some numbers that I quickly found. But omega-6 can last from days to two years to four years maybe. Um, but so can omega-3s. Cholesterol can last months to years also in some tissues. And then glucose, well, it doesn't last, but it can turn and convert to triglycerides and then get stored as fat, and then it can also be in the system for years. So that itself, the fact that it's in your body for that long, it's a little nuanced because it's more of, well, what is that then doing in your body? And I don't think that just having linoleic acid in your body is always oxidized, always inflammatory, always causing disease in the system because omega-sixes are essential. They do have a role. They do make up the outer membrane. So it is important. I mean, cholesterol makes, but so do other fatty acids. And so it's more about your entire profile. So if you are eating a lot of seed oils and it's staying in your system for several years and you're adding more to it and making your diet, as Dr. Fetty is saying, more like 30% of your dietary intake, it's probably not a good thing. One is that it's making the outer layer of your cellular membrane more linoleic than other fatty acids, which is not a natural state. So what we have to consider is, yes, linoleic acid can become more rancid, can become more oxidized than saturated fats. That is absolutely true. But just because you have linoleic in your body does not mean that it's always oxidizing in your body, that it's always causing inflammation in the body. It really depends on the person's state. So it's just a little nuanced. And I just wanted to put it out there. Yes, saturated fats are less oxidized than polyunsaturated fatty acids, but that does not mean that PUFAs are oxidizing non-stop for those four years they're in your system. Nor does it mean that it's always causing inflammation in your system. We do so much crazy blood work in our practice. So, it is, I just want to say a little bit more nuanced. Okay, let's get back into the interview.

So, you can get away with a bit more sugar and carbs at times.

Okay.

If you have to.

Okay. There. We, we traditionally have a brandy sauce and a plum pudding at Christmas. It's just such a strong traditional thing.

And you know, you cringe a little bit, but you, you do it. It tastes good. And if you're going to eat fruit. So I mean, I, if you're going to do that, just recognize what you're doing and recognize that you're going to be hungry for the next six hours.

Right.

Because it drives behavior.

Yeah. So, I'm this real nerd, you know, it comes to food. I'm just saying, how is this going to affect me? And how is it going to drive my behavior? And how is it going to affect me biochemically? Once you get sugar out of your diet, which is an overwhelming sensation both on your taste buds as well as your brain at the nuclear circumans and the addiction centers and the whole driving behavioral pathways at a hypothalamus level. When you reduce the sugar in your diet, then all of a sudden food tastes differently.

Yeah.

And you lose some of those driving behaviors from it. So I will wake up, I will have times when I go, I think I need protein this morning. I will think I need a bit more healthy fat. So I will have more protein in my diet depending on my activity and then I'll eat the fat to satiety. I'm, I'm not eating it as protein and I'm not eating it as fat, but I'm going, I'm going to foods which are so my my ultimate snack food if I'm hungry and I'm not certain about it is cheese, you know, which has got good amount of protein, good amount of healthy fats in it. And gosh, you just, it fills me up. But I, I, I'm no longer going around looking for micronutrients. I'm just seemed that all seems to come. And one of the classics is a pizza. You know, I'm not saying advocate pizza, but people will eat pizza with a massive amount of calories with very low nutritional.

Right. Places. So, at the end of a pizza, an hour later, they want another pizza. Or you on to a classic Chinese meal on the way out, which is high in sugar, and on the way home, you've had a couple of beers, which will actually or a bit of alcohol, which will change the way we didn't even get onto alcohol, but how that will actually change behavior and eating and what's happening with your glucose and insulin levels, primarily dropping your glucagon levels, but if, and on the way home, you need to stop at a kebab shop because you're hungry, you know, or how like, you know, in in the old days of having a night on the town, you come home and you just start eating ice cream at 3:00 in the morning, you know, because you just, you're hungry. And that, that, it's all explained biochemically, but that's another day, another talk.

Well, thank you so much for your time. I, I really like to get into the weeds. And it could be that I studied psychology in in my studies. And so that's where I like to get into a lot of the, at the end of the day, maybe it is the polyunsaturated fatty acids are way worse than sugar and fructose. Maybe fructose just makes you gain weight and makes you hungry all the time. But then the, but knowing that even if it's a lot of the PUFAs and the seed oils and the omega-sixes that are driving illness more, but just understanding that sugar drives behavior, and then behavior is what then makes us grab the stuff that's not good for us. That just logically makes me think even if PUFAs are worse for you, sugar is probably an absolute no. And if you h ever struggled with metabolic syndrome, a taste of a banana, a taste of fruit can still swing you into the way of the bad habit and then perpetuate you to eventually eat ultra-processed foods that has seed oils. So from the the psychology side of me just thinks it's just easier to rip the band-aid and not eat carbohydrates, even if they're healthy carbohydrates, if they're the fruits or the honey that people say are not bad for us. I think for many people, that's the gateway to all the other bad food that then makes them and stays makes them stay sick.

That poly old pathway of carbohydrates.

Yes.

Again, it's my talks and I think Richard Johnson talks about it as well. He does actually, that drives back. So when you think you're having carbs and you're not eating sugar, 40% of that may be coming back to fructose.

Right?

To drive the behavior.

Yes. And that was to me the runaway train bit of that nutritional model of modern disease. Yes, you got fructose and you've got the polyunsaturated seed oils and the LDLs becoming oxidized and everything, but the runaway train was the carbs getting converted back into the fructose and creating this vicious cycle. Um, if people want to eat honey, I say eat fresh, local, seasonal. If you want to eat honey, then you go and find the wild beehive. You climb the tree, you rape and pillage that beehive where the bees are actually storing their own supply for their winter.

Right?

And do it at your own peril and your own energy. And if you want to do that, then think about it that way. But but think about how much honey you're actually going to get from that journey. It's much harder to do that than to go to the pantry, open up the honey jar, and just spoon it on you. And I recognize we've got beehives and whatever, but you again, with the whole regenerative agriculture thing, we, you know, so many people don't understand that the central role of bees and our, in fact, survival. Whoa, we're at a potential catastrophic point now with our bee populations, you know, losing it.

Um, we don't have beehives here, but I have actually created natural bee habitats in drilling holes in logs. So native bees here can in Tasmania, we've got multiple types. They're tiny. They're millimeter, 2 millimeters in size. They're not the big buzzy things, but you can go and create those natural habitats for your to try and improve the bee habitats around. So if you've got a, you know, a backyard, just drill holes in a few in an old log and hang it in a spot under a tree and just watch it fill up. It's just one of the wonderful things of nature.

Yeah. I think the interesting thing about poly the polyal pathway is for individuals that say I can eat all this sugar and my glucose looks good and that's great and everything but what is going on with fructose because we don't know if your polyel pathway is working so well that's making glucose convert to fructose and that's not being measured when you track your CGM your blood glucose your A1C none of that is tracking fructose and so.

No, at all. Well, my my t. In fact, most textbooks now, um, biochemistry ones, I went and looked it all up because fructose metabolism in my textbook was fructose fructose 6 phosphate. That was it. There's no mention whatsoever about all this other stuff. And that the poly that whole fructose metabolism was definitively described in only 2010, 2011 by look Tappy, who's a Swiss academic, and his paper is still a definitive one. I think that's what I one important one that I read at the time, and I've met up with look at a Coca-Cola meeting, actually. So look was being brought out to say fructose by itself doesn't cause obesity. We had some words about that. I'll leave it at that. But I asked him publicly in a Coca-Cola meeting. I warned him at the lunch that I was going to ask him a question. And I said, "Professor Tappy, is there any role for fructose in our diet?" And he went, "No."

So here's a statement for you. There is no biochemical pathway in the body that's dependent on ingested glucose. There is no biochemical pathway in our body that's dependent on ingested fructose. But there are biochemical pathways that are dependent on complete proteins or healthy prote and complete fats, healthy fats. I'm not saying I'm not advocating for a zero carbohydrate diet, but there is not a single biochemical pathway in the body that requires ingested carbohydrate. That's it. And we evolved without carbohydrates in our diet because carbohydrates in our diet are seasonal and that's fruit, honey, breast milk. They're the only naturally available carbohydrates. Grain, it's seasonally available, but it requires processing. So, it's really hard to you need to grind that wheat down. You can look at pre-agricultural revolution or agricultural early agricultural revolution skeletons and their molars have been ground out because that's the way they were processing it. They were grinding it and losing their teeth as a result. Look at pre-agricultural versus post-agricultural revolution skeletons and you can start and again, I haven't done it, but there's a place in Spain where they can look at a skeleton, they can say looking at the joints in particular, and they say, "Oh, that's pre-agricultural revolution. That's post-agricultural revolution." So we started seeing joint degeneration post-agricultural revolution once we started processing grains and um Peter Austerberg in, he's a Swedish fellow working in Finland, and he introduced me to the time when we first started actually having carbohydrates in our diet. It's probably about 14,000 years ago when the first records are there of um beer and bread. And you can imagine that there was some grain that was actually on the ground fermenting and someone was so desperate for finding some water, they drank this puddle and then they went got woozy and how someone found fermented grains and it ended up being some sort of bread composite. But they're the first records of us eating for no evolutionary benefit are the first times of us eating carbohydrate for what would have been hedonistic pursuit for our pleasure, not for our evolution. So carbohydrates are there as a luxury item in nature for us to get fat for winter. That's it.

And and and around that time when we need to eat fat, fruit, and or naturally available carbohydrates, they are there to drive behavior so we maximize the amount of fruit that we eat so we get fat because tomorrow it's not going to be available. And the the modern-day proof of that is Christmas Eve at the supermarket, the frenzy of shopping because the supermarket's not going to be open tomorrow. It's true though, isn't it?

It's so true.

And everyone fills up their fridges to the point that they can't put anything more in it for the next 5 days. This is that's the modern day.

Yeah. Yes.

The winter hibernation maneuver, Christmas Eve at the shops.

Thank you so much for your time, Dr. Fecky. I love that you mix uh, you know, a little bit of humor with learning because that is the best way to learn. It helps you to remember because when you laugh, you also release biochemical things that then allow you to retain more information. So, I just I love that side, too.

Well, you'd be I'm happily married because Belinda keeps laughing at me, right?

I'm sure she has a blast with all the things you do. I'm sure she loves it. And

most of most of the time she sometimes doesn't quite understand my sense of humor. She and one of our daughters is the same sense of humor as me. And

okay.

She's the youngest one. But um so I bet I'll leave you with a joke. All right. There you go.

Yes, please.

All right. All right. What's blue but not so heavy?

And my first thought was ocean, but I don't think that's right.

No, no, light blue.

Light blue. The sky.

No, just light blue, right? Not as heavy. Light blue.

See you later.

Okay. Well, before you go, uh where can people find you? Your lectures? I will put many in the show notes, but there's a lot um that you've done. I look most times you find um just look look me up on YouTube because people say, "Can you give that talk again?" I said, "No, it's improved. It's a little bit more modern and whatever." But on YouTube, you'll find our lectures. Belinda's on YouTube as well. Um I'm on Twitter X, but I'm a bit naughty there. Um my website nofructose.com is well and truly out of date. Okay.

Um follow Belinda on Substack Truth Zones. Belinda Fetki. Yeah, we're around, but most of the time we're mentoring at this point in time. And I'm involved in a whole lot of politics and guideline reform, which you'll not find me, you won't find that publicly, but we we're still working away.

Well, thank you. I mean, I I do want to take a moment and, you know, you are one of the the forefront people that have really led this low carb movement and you've put your job on the line, which I know so many doctors are scared to do that. I mean, you saw that during COVID where people could have spoken out and they chose not to. And and so I have just so much respect for the work that you and Belinda do. And so, you know, if I could just take a moment and really thank you because it takes

individuals like you that are fearless and I I know there are moments that we feel fear, but we still do the right thing anyway. And so, I just am very grateful for your leadership and um yeah.

But thank you. Thank you, Judy. I think we with Belinda and I have talked about this, you know, like why on earth are we doing this? But we we care so much we no longer care.

Yeah. Well, and you have children and grandchildren that you want a better life for them. And you don't want to leave with knowing these truths that are uh that we are being fed incorrectly.

Well, we we've been targeted financially, professionally, and and threatened. You can't hurt us anymore. Yeah. So, therefore, this is such an important topic uh about how we fuel society in the future. Right.

Um and there's so much stuff happening around which is blurring it. But it comes back to um just the basics. That's what we keep doing. But um I think we should be recognized that as I said, I think you're one of the OGs as well. You know, you're one of the original gangsters. You've been there for a long time.

Well, thank you.

And you keep well and um good luck with the book.

I'll talk to you offline about the book, but yes, thank you. Thank you so much. But thank you. Thank you so much again.

All right. All right, Judy. Bye-bye. Bye.

At the end of the day, it is so difficult to separate just seed oils or just carbohydrates because in the real world, they come together. And in reality, if we all just removed processed carbohydrates and limited our carbohydrate consumption, then ideally remaining with mostly fatty meat is an ideal way to eat. Depending on your current health and your metabolic flexibility and how much you are trying to heal, as well as how consistent you can be on your diet, that is the perfect diet for you. Ultimately, removing processed carbs and most seed oils and most sugars or added sugars is highly beneficial for your health. And so ideally, it is not really this is the perfect diet, but what is a diet that is clean as possible that you can stay to most consistently? That is ideally the diet that you should be following. Meat or meat base should always be the center of the plate because it is the most bioavailable nutrition, the most that we can assimilate the nutrition no matter our gut function, and it has the most bioavailable or nutrition that your body can easily use instead of having to convert it and breaking it down in your system. And additionally, it causes overall less inflammation than other plant toxins and sugars and also seed oils. But beyond that, it is really what you can stick to and what you can tolerate that is truly your perfect diet. And so, while we get into all of these nuances, I hope you find the diet that helps you to be metabolically healthy, allows you to stay consistent, your blood markers look pretty good, you aren't insulin resistant, your immune functions good, your mood wellness seem good, and I always go back to HOMES, which is hormones, output. So your your skin health and your stool, and then your mood. Is your mood good? And then your energy. So is your energy pretty consistent throughout the day? And then S, which is sleep. Is your sleep relatively consistent? If the HOMES is tracking in the right way, then whatever diet you are following is probably the right diet for you. I spoke with Dr. Fecky for about another hour and a half after our podcast. I should have absolutely continued to record, but we talked about so many different topics and rabbit holes, and I am absolutely going to bring Belinda back on and talk about certain topics about where does the belief that fiber is so good for you come from? What about Singapore and politics and Coca-Cola and the dietetics association? We talked about all of these things and we will talk about it with Belinda on another episode. Okay guys, make sure to eat a lot of meat. Take care of your bodies because it is the only place you have to live. I will talk to you later.