Transcription
Is Katherine Bertrin, a cyclist, triathlete, and CEO of the Homestretch Foundation, which provides free housing to female professional athletes struggling with the gender pay gap? Howard Magdal is joining us, a sports writer, commentator, and author of the upcoming book, Becoming Caitlyn Clark, a biography of the record-breaking WNBA Player. And rounding out our panel is Pearl Davis, an American YouTuber and a cultural and political commentator. Welcome to all of you to Counterpoints.
Well, in 2024, the median salary for WNBA players was just 2% of their NBA counterparts. And you could argue that the men's game simply makes more money, a lot more money. But when you consider it in terms of percentages, NBA players are paid around 50% of the league's revenue while the women get only a touch over 9% of the revenue. So, Katherine, let's start with you. Is that fair?
>> Oh, of course it's not fair. In this modern day and age, we need to pay the women equally. And you know, I come from the world of professional cycling where we're struggling with the same gender pay gap. And no matter what sport across the globe, the fact that women's sports are and not even sports, women across the world are being paid less than men. It's time that we really truly change this and not penny by penny or dollar by dollar, but is to the significant point of being equal.
>> Pearl, what do you think?
>> What is the difference between profit and revenue?
>> You guys know it. Okay. Obviously, you've got a point to make, so go ahead.
>> No, I'm I'm asking the question because if you're going to make the claim that we need to have equal revenue, um Okay. What is the difference? Tell me. Does she know?
>> Well, the difference the difference is visibility and the fact that women aren't seen on the visible platforms the way
>> that's actually not that's not that's not correct. You say you don't know it.
>> No, you don't know it. But but no, but Pearl, to go back to the to the question that we posed, is it fair that the women get a lesser percentage of the money that they make for the sport?
>> I don't know the answer to that question. That's amazing to me. Revenue is how much the league brings in. Profit is how much it brings in minus expenses. So, I don't really care if you bring in $200 million, but you spend $300 million, then you're still losing money. So, revenue doesn't matter.
>> Jump in here and point out a couple of things. And uh glad to be with all of you today. Uh first of all is that obviously it's not nearly as simple as profit versus revenue because you have for instance owners of WNBA teams who are having their assets grow exponentially. So whether the profit or loss comes in at X amount of money, that doesn't take into account the fact that teams that were worth $10 million 5 years ago are now worth 400 or $500 million as well. There's no shortage of investment that comes in. But there is a larger problem here and that is centering men around these questions rather than Oh, I I I let you speak. I'm going to go ahead and finish. um centering men around this instead of simply coming up with a basic answer to the question. What is an appropriate amount of the total revenue that players should receive from a league? Whether it is a men's league, whether it is a women's league, and then figuring out profit versus revenue, what money goes into expenses, what money goes into investment in something that grows the league's bottom line for its owners. This is the gray area where things actually get determined. And so, no, the world is not nearly as black and white as profit versus revenue.
>> I mean, I think it's pretty black and white that if you're spending more than you're making, you can't really justify a pay increase. I think it's pretty simple.
>> If you are investing in something that's worth more over time, how is that not relevant to the overall revenue that's coming in? If you have purchased a house that continues to go up in value and you own the house, your ultimate bottom line, your assets are worth considerably more. How is that not a part of the equation?
>> Because
>> you're welcome to disagree, but pretty clearly a number of owners don't view it that way, which is why three different WNBA owners in expansion just paid $250 million a piece to do it. They didn't do that so they could go in and lose money.
>> I just I don't think you can really compare it when the NBA brings in 11 billion a year and we're losing 250 million. We're making less money. So,
>> nobody actually said they're losing 250 million and that's a madeup number. But why are you comparing it to the NBA at all? What I'm asking you is a different question. What is it about the WNBA that means that players shouldn't receive 50% of revenue if that's the percentage of revenue that NBA players and leagues across the world make
>> because they're unprofitable.
>> Okay. What do you what do you say to that, Caitlyn? Are they not profitable?
>> Catherine,
>> sorry, Katherine. I I apologize. I apologize, Catherine. It's like if I if I had an employee that wanted more money, I'd ask, "Are you making me more money?" And if you're losing $250 million a year, um 50 million, whatever, whatever numbers 250 million, that's a madeup number. Nobody Nobody has said that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. The WNBA is not losing money. It's, if anything, it's gaining more than it ever has. So that doesn't make sense. Revenue has gone up considerably year after year after year. That's the the open question. Of course, we know that a majority, if we're going to stick into the reality based part of this, we know the majority of WNBA teams earn money. We know the fact that the WNBA just signed a new media rights deal. For those of at home who want to know how this really works, the media rights deals are the engine financially that drive profitability or loss with leagues for a long time. And through 2025, the WNBA media rights deal, which was signed 10 years ago, did not allow for that. But a new media rights deal that values the work that's being done on ESPN and other partners alone at 200 million rather than 33 million changes the numbers. When we look at attendance going up, the revenue changes significantly. And so you put all that together and ultimately, yes, the numbers are up considerably, but yes,
>> it's a madeup number. I I literally don't know where you got it from, but it has nothing to do with the moment. I think you may have you may have confused profitability with expansion fees.
>> Okay. Well, we know that we know the many ways that they are. We know that TV viewership has gone up 30% uh in the past year. Revenue for the WNBA has doubled since 2019. So is is
>> Catherine, give us your give us your interpretation of whether or not we are seeing a lack of interest in women's sport or is it that it just doesn't seem that there's fairness in the profits.
>> Oh, I I absolutely agree that while there's not yet fairness in a profit, we are absolutely seeing an uptick in the viewership of women's sports. And the most wonderful effect that Caitlyn Clark has had is that it's not just been her presence in basketball. She has completely made people across the world pay attention to women in all sports. And so we're seeing, you know, the wave of Caitlyn in the most wonderful way. And people are finally tuning in and following that whatever sport they might be following, whether it's soccer or cycling or women's ice hockey, there is a Caitlyn Clark in each sport that is making this incredible move forward for all of us and we're thankful for for what's happening within the WNBA. And one of the things that we've always done in women's sports, especially in the last 10 to 15 years, is to start speaking up about everything from equitable pay to equal opportunities, you know, and that's one thing we can draw to light right now. As we know, uh, the women's tour to France known as tour to France FEMC Zift is happening as we speak. And this is a race that has long been coming down the line for many of us who fought to bring it to uh to to the to the airwaves and to the visibility and not just that but to into existence. And the fact that that is now happening and the cycling world is seeing a a return of investment not just in women's cycling but in all cycling because more people are tuning in. more people are able to finally say it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman who I'm watching race or participate in sports. All I want to do is see some great game being played. And that's finally what's happening. So when we talk about the return of investment and profits and losses, we have to look at a much bigger picture and not just where this has come from, but where this is now and where it's going.
>> Uh what do you make of that Howard? the idea that is it is it fair pay for the the same amount of effort that they put in? Does this always need to be distilled down to profits or or are we talking just good old-fashioned gender exploitation?
>> Howard, can you hear us?
>> I think we may have an audio issue there with Howard. So, let me put that to you, Pearl. What do you think? Yeah. Does it What about the the fair pay for the effort that they put in?
>> Women are very lucky in this society. We are so lucky to even have women's sports at all. Um, I think we're incredibly lucky to be able to play sports even though we operate at a loss. And it's very frustrating when I hear women whining and crying about not getting paid enough. when I have family members that are in the military. Um, I have family members that, you know, do the hard jobs in society and you guys are crying because you're not getting paid enough to dribble a basketball. Nobody watches women's sports. No one does. I played sports for 20 years.
>> It's totally insane.
>> The reason the reason the reason that women the reason people are tuning in for Caitlyn Clark is because of the drama. So, people kind of like to see the cat fights on the court. Nobody's tuning into the WNBA to watch a bunch of missed layups. And I played basketball for 20 years, okay? I I played overseas. I, you know, but I have to be honest, all the people complaining about equal pay, they were never at my games ever. So, um, they just make money. You guys, you guys make money off
>> possible. There's some jealousy that of where the league is now compared to where it was then because people are not tuning in for the drama. for the ability to play basketball, which Caitlyn demonstrates so beautifully that she is fully capable. She's a fantastic ball player.
>> And so I won. Oh my gosh, I keep accidentally going out.
>> So to think that Yeah, she's pretty incredible. Yeah. So I mean, right, women are not whining. Fighting for equal pay is not is not whining. And we are well the world is lucky that there get there gets to be professional sports league for men's or for women's you know either way
>> um we're not just lucky we create our own luck and women's have developed
>> there is a man there's a man in Alaska
>> that dies so we can get crab fish crab meat every boat that goes out it's like three months long there's a guy that literally dies those are the work conditions they go in and I never see them complain. I never see them whine. You know, I I have cousins that do um hard manual labor construction where they're, you know, they're sacrificing their body um to keep this society running. And you guys are crying because what? You're not getting paid enough to dribble a basketball. Screw you. Like that's how I feel.
>> Nobody's crying.
>> That's how I feel about it. You guys are you guys are lucky to have a league to begin with. You don't make money. So if if you want to get paid more, increase the profits, not the revenue, which you guys didn't even know what the difference between the two was. Like and that's that's the challenge that I'm getting is you guys are crying and you have no idea how entitled and privileged you are.
>> Whether we're talking about revenue, whether we're talking about profits, we know that TV ratings are up for women's basketball 23% on last year. Attendance is up 13% uh in 2025. Ticket sales are up 26%. And leaguewide merchandise is up 450%. So, how can you say that no one's interested, Pearl?
>> Okay, it goes up, but the viewership is still way lower than the men's.
>> No one's saying it's not the same as the men, but why can't they get a percentage of their merchandise sales even? But women's basketball don't get a percentage of the sales of their merchandise the way that men do. Why should a basketball jersey be allowed to be sold with Caitlyn Clark's name on it when she doesn't get any money from that?
>> I'll give you an example. So, I played I played volleyball.
>> I played volleyball overseas
>> and to be honest, our gyms were pretty much empty.
>> We had maybe like 10, 15. It was maybe it was just the parents, maybe boyfriends that came, but we were pretty good. We made it to the final four. at those games. Sure, we might might have had our viewership go up 23%. But it's like, okay, you had 20 people at the games. That's the equivalent of the WNBA at a mass scale. Can you name five WNBA players?
>> But just because people might not be turning up for some sports, if they're turning up and selling out stadiums for the WNBA, isn't that evidence that there is more? It may be still a smaller amount but more than there was in the past.
>> Well, how much does the stadium cost to rent? How much did the trainers cost? How much did the marketing cost? It doesn't matter if your cost exceeds how much you're making. And that's what's happening in the WNBA. Their costs are higher than the revenue they're bringing in. It doesn't matter if the revenue is going up if you're still losing money. And the challenge is, you know, I've said this a lot with media people is they've never been generally they've never been in charge of a lot of people. And I'm not saying you, but in general. So it's like you you have to get the money from somewhere to pay everybody that's working at these things. And what keeps happening is they keep saying, "Pay me more. Pay me more." Well, make money. Make money like the men. You want equal pay. Make the same amount of money. And yet we've got lots go ahead Katherine
>> to say. Yeah, I do have something to say about that. But I first think it's very important that we bring in the most recent statistic which is just recently within the past 24 hours, Caitlyn Clark's rookie card just sold for $660,000 which is 8.5 times her annual salary of $76,000. So this is the most money ever made at a public auction for a woman athlete. So
>> despite the league pulling in, you know, and not not only that, but you know, the the women's league is pulling in more viewership than ever than ever. And this is so so very important to to keep current with what's really happened. And I what's really happening right now because I know in the past the viewership wasn't there for so many women's sports, but we are changing that. That's what's going on right now. It's happening across the globe, especially with the different streaming visibility platforms we have.
>> Still no profit.
>> Um, we have got Howard back. Welcome back, Howard. We uh had a technical glitch and we lost you there. Uh, it's good to have you back. Uh, we're going to move on to our next segment uh of of the show. We've been talking about uh fair pay. Let's talk about media attention because there is no doubt while it may have been from a smaller number than the men, audience figures and audience numbers for women's sport is increasing, but yes, it still lags behind the numbers that the male leagues capture. For example, if we turn our attentions away maybe from basketball to women's football, uh an estimated 3.4 4 million people attended the men's FIFA World Cup in 2022, while the women's tournament drew uh in 2023 drew a crowd of a bit less than 2 million. So, there is still a disparity in the number of people who are willing to pay money and turn up for women's games. So, Howard, you're a sports commentator. Do why do women's sporting events, sporting tournaments attract less attention? Be that on television or be it in person?
>> Well, look, I I reject the premise of the question. You can go back to a large number of examples where women's sports has received equal amount of investment and promotion and see that the opposite is true. Here in the United States, more than 26 million people watch the 2015 FIFA Women's World Cup, which is the largest audience for a soccer game in this country, men's or women's. You can go to the 2024 National Championship Games for college basketball. And the women's college basketball tournament with Caitlyn Clark as a star drew 18.9 million. The men's drew 14.7 million. But a thing that so commonly happens here is there is a confusion of inputs and outcomes. And inputs are provided in an uneven way. It leads to outcomes that are uneven which are used to justify the next input. And again and again we see that happen in women's sports.
>> Pearl, do you disagree with that sentiment or or agree that is it not the same investment? Is it worthy of the same investment? Women aren't as entertaining as men. So when women start getting as entertaining as men, you'll see the viewership be close to the same um and you'll see more investment.
>> Yeah, we already do actually. In fact, we see them often exceed when there's even a rough equivalent of attention provided at the front end between men and women. But I I I mean your personal opinion of course has no bearing on the actual numbers as they exist. Katherine, what do you think?
>> Yeah, I agree with Howard on this 100% and I think it's also important that we talk about the visibility aspect and we are still in a time frame where when it comes to broadcasting women's sports on network TV, uh women are given the back seat. We are not always put in prime time. Locally, that's changing a bit, but when we Excuse me, I'm still speaking. When we have women,
>> just let Catherine finish Pearl and then I'll come to you for a response.
>> When women are given an equal seat at the table of decision making as to when and where we're seen, we will see a dynamic turn in visibility for the better. And most of that is happening because people are sticking to tradition. The men are getting prime spots, you know, frequently more often than women are when we talk about prime time. When that changes, you will see that dynamic shift and it will change everything. It'll change profits. It'll change change everything. But the good news is that is finally starting to happen. We're not just being broadcast at 10:00 a.m. on a Sunday morning like we were in the past. It's finally inching its way up the visibility, but we still need to make dramatic change happen there. And the flip side about it and something that's so encouraging is as we see it happen more and more, those are driving further decisions. Quite frankly, that's what we saw with Caitlyn Clark. Caitlyn Clark happened to be a freshman the year that ESPN started broadcasting every single NCAA women's tournament game. The first time they finally decided to put a game on network television, ABC here in the United States of America, it drew 1.6 million people. helped drive decisions that led to more and more visibility that led to more and more people seeing this is a very simple thing. People cannot follow a sport because associate it's not because she's really like interrupting everybody people. What do you what do you make of
>> more of an opportunity to be able to see these sports happen when they're able to see these sports happen, able to follow these sports, able to get more media coverage for these sports, what we see again and again is people are buying in at a same, if not larger number than often times on the men's equivalent. But bottom line is a huge growth we're seeing throughout women's sports where they get these opportunities to show what they can do. And and Pearl, you were saying that that that women just aren't as entertaining, but what do you make uh to Howard's point that a hugely greater number of people tuned in to watch the women's football team play their matches in the US women's football team than any US male football team.
>> I mean, it may happen for a game, but across the length of a season, the viewership's always higher for the men. Always. What about the argument that if you don't value it, if it's not prioritized, people can't see it. So if it's not prioritized on the screen, people can't value it.
>> You guys are you guys are in show business. There will be small YouTube channels, tiny YouTube channels where if they have an entertaining clip or an entertaining segment, their whole life will change overnight. If women's sports was that entertaining that people would want to watch it, the clips would go viral and people would find a way to watch it. But it's not entertaining. And so what happens whenever I can tell you how often the clips go viral whenever women seeing the numbers whenever women take an L in life, the world has to tell them they're not taking an L. And so what happens in women's sports is we're not making money. We're not really having the viewership the men are having. And it's an L, right? we're just not as entertaining. Instead of the world being honest with us and saying, "Hey, you guys should be more entertaining and do a better job instead of laying being the men," what it does is it says, "It's not your fault because you don't have a seat at the table, gender pay gap, blah blah blah." When really the burden of performance is on us to be entertaining and get the viewership.
>> Okay. Howard, is it about being entertaining or is it about being professional?
>> I mean, this is a false choice. Again, we've just been able to provide you a tremendous amount of data on audience, on attendance, on revenue again and again. And ultimately, it's going to be up to your audience to decide, right? Do you believe the massive increase in audience? Do you increase the attendance? Do you see the increase in revenue? Or do you just decide, well, Pearl said they're not entertaining, so I guess we got to listen to one random person. I I'm going to go with the
>> real life and actually come up with a conclusion. What happens is is you guys are nerds, right? So, a lot of nerds, what they want to do,
>> okay, we don't need to resort to name calling. So, let's uh let's keep the name calling out of it. Uh but Catherine, let me ask you this, Catherine. Uh to to get a
>> just a moment, Pearl. Just a just a moment. Thanks, Pearl. And we'll throw a question to Catherine.
>> Don't believe what's in your real life.
>> Okay, Catherine, I'm curious about your opinions on this. Pearl, just know what the WNBA is.
>> Thanks, Pearl. Just a moment. Thanks. And we'll come back to you for a response. Uh, Catherine, in 2024, we had um a wide-reaching media study that found 15% of sports coverage highlighted women's sport. If it was profitable, if it was uh something that broadcasters were going to see a bottom line and a ratings boost from, wouldn't they increase that percentage and show more? Is that evidence that they're not investing in it either? Maybe because the bottom line isn't there for them.
>> I I agree. you know, and I'm um I'm saying this as a very proud nerd because I do relate nerdism with people who are educated on the subject they're speaking about. So, I will put my nerdism force and say that absolutely I
>> want to believe in just a moment, Pearl. We'll let Catherine speak and then we'll bring it over to you.
>> Yeah, You know, I I definitely think that
>> when we when we talk about the visibility element and if we're saying, well, women's sport sports are not as uh visible. They're only at 15% this or that. It's really because we have to keep going back to the factor of when the women are seen, then the visibility and the audience will grow. It can't happen any other way. I can actually give a a great example of this. And again, I'm going to go back to the cycling world, but it really uh transpires to a bigger picture here, but uh years ago, 11 years ago, we made a documentary film on women's cycling. And believe it or not, back then I was working for ESPN and they turned down this idea of making a film on women's cycling, citing, oh, but nobody watches women's cycling. And I said, well, they don't watch it because there's no way to see it. And then I stepped away and I made this documentary independently. And when we crowdsourced to make this film happen, it turned out that 16 different countries around the world were part of our donor pool. And it was an equal split between men and women who donated to make this film happen. And the donors were cycling fans. These were people that just wanted to know more and see more women's racing. So long story short, what happened from that was that Half the Road, the film that came out in 2014 that people thought, "Oh, no one is going to watch, it went on to be screened in 180 countries and uh we won a whole bunch of film festivals all because people wanted to see something that they had not yet have had the opportunity to see and that was women on the screen doing a sport that they loved. So if we take this logic and apply it to every women's sport, all we need is the visibility and the fans will fully support those who already exist and then it'll draw in the new fans who don't even know a sport exists yet and then they become a lifelong fan and then the entire sport both men's and women's side will rise. We've been able to see that happen in women's cycling and that's again just just one sport. We're seeing it happen in the WNBA. And I think we need to also bring it back to what Billy Jean King did for tennis. No one was watching women's tennis before Billy Jean King because nobody knew it existed. And she, a player within the the realms of of of tennis at the time, made that change happen. And we in women's cycling stood up to make that change happen years ago. And now women in basketball who are playing currently are the change makers just as women's soccer did a few years ago. And that's truly what it takes. It takes people within the organization to stand up and fight for for what's right. And it's it's there is nothing but you know a happy story to be had when women are finally seen equally across all visibility platforms.
>> Okay. Can I go now? Can I go?
>> Please.
>> So, the what happens is in media, I'm going to finish the nerd point. It's not really meant to be an insult. Sorry if um it comes off that way. But my my point is what happens in media is a lot of people make money off of being victims. Right? So, she's going to make money off of her documentary film saying boohoo, we're not getting enough. I'm held back because I'm a woman. Blah blah blah. And I'm right. Here's my data. And what I'm telling the people is don't believe me. Don't believe the people on the panel because studies can be funded by anyone. They can manipulate numbers to not show you what's really going on. But go into your real life and ask people, "Do you watch the WNBA? Name five WNBA players." And what you're going to find, because I've played sports for 20 years, I played overseas. I played in college. Um, is we just don't have the attendance that the men do. And, um, there it's very profitable. It's very profitable to be a victim. And so what they're going to do is say that it's so hard to be a a woman's sports or playing women's sports. And really, there's men out there that do real hard jobs, right? They're the ones paving the roads. They're the ones doing manual labors. And they don't get any airtime. We get the airtime. That's how much of a privileged class we are as women is we get the airtime for not making enough money for dribbling a basketball in an unprofitable league. But there are men that die to build the infrastructure um that allows them to play basketball, right? Um allows them to get the food that we get and they don't get any air time. Um the other thing that she
>> All right, just give us one moment on that point, Pearl. Let me put that over uh to to Katherine and Howard for a response.
>> I first of all, I don't know where to begin. the the the nonsense idea that as long as you ignore all the facts and all the data because anything can be manipulated. We just need to focus on what one person Pearl seems to think is reality, somebody who has argued publicly that women shouldn't even have the right to vote. I mean, it just sort of blows my mind. Katherine, obviously you are to be credited for what you were able to do, which is to put forward a compelling story that ultimately found its audience and then some. And this goes back to the larger basic point here which is that no one is arguing that there should be some sort of privilege class involved here. It should simply be that if we create a circumstance by which men's sports and women's sports have a parity of investment then what happens after that is a true reflection of the marketplace. When we have a marketplace in which decisions are made based on retrograde ideas about women's sports that ignore the huge audiences we see for women's sports when they get equal opportunity, well then of course by definition the outcomes are going to be disproportionately geared toward the men. And so, yeah, I I I'm I'm a little suspect and happily would be uh taking on the nerd idea that we're going to accept data and basic understanding of the world as it operates over just a random retrograde person who seems to shout the loudest, angriest opinions. Yeah, I'm going to stick with the fact
>> to listen to me. I say listen to what you see in real life.
>> Okay. I well then we have a rare point of agreement because the huge audiences we are seeing for the WNBA for instance are reality and your random statements about it and you no matter how many times you say it it's not true that people aren't watching are not borne out by reality but what do I have to go by other than the ratings that we see on TV and the fact that I keep covering games that are sold out time after time. I assume those people are made up in your adult.
>> Is it is it profitable? Yes or no?
>> Okay. Uh Katherine, I'm going to give you a right of reply with regard to Pearl's comments about your documentary and then we'll continue on to our final segment.
>> Right. Well, I got to start with a laugh on this. Nobody makes a documentary film to make money. We make it because we truly love the subject that we're making about. And the last thing it was was Boohoo, but actually very much a celebratory film. So, if you want to check out Half the Road and and, you know, make a a judgment for yourself, please do either way. But honestly, I have to say, Pearl, I'm um I'm a little bit shocked by some of your thoughts, but I'm also thankful for this view that you're bringing to us because it shows us how much harder we need to fight for equity. And I really uh think it's important that we have this view that not all of us are on the same page when it comes to progress. And sometimes that can hold development back. And you know, while I'm always hopeful that all women are on the uh the wavelength of lifting one another up and celebrating the movement of women's sports, I know that there are times where um that is not always the case. I feel like that's where we might be right now. Uh with our
>> I'll celebrate profitable.
>> I'll celebrate it. There's equal results. When you're profitable, you get the same better viewership than the men. When we bring in bill when women's basketball brings in billions of dollars like the men do.
>> Well, we we may see that one day actually.
>> We will we will see that. We will see the day when women's women's sports are bringing in billions of dollars. The only reason we're not right now is because of equal viewership capabilities. The rest is going to fall into place because of those of us who are pushing for it.
>> And in the meantime, and the growth, by the way, just to point out, the growth is undeniable. The thing that we do know definitively is that the numbers are going up both in terms of money and in terms of audience. And so, we're continuing to see it going in that direction. And it it's very weird that the men are somehow centered pearl in your mind no matter what instead of oh look women's sports in and of itself instead of trying to find a way to denigrate it by comparing it to something that has had worlds of more investment and has been around for much longer. Women's sports continues to grow. Why is that not a celebratory moment for you as we see investment come to go along with it?
>> Actually, you you I'll tell you I'll tell you. Great question. So, it's because it really irritates me that women always want special treatment for everything. They want handouts and they
>> You're not answering the question.
>> Not about answer. If you just answer Howard the question directly and then we'll move on.
>> Yeah. Why don't you answer the actual question at a loss
>> instead of making it about yourself at a loss for 50 years and it wouldn't exist but the women can
>> but question was why shouldn't their success be celebrated for what they've achieved now
>> because it's not real success it's subsidized if it was real success it would be profitable I wouldn't and and the problem
>> well I guess uh success uh is is subjective but look we've been talking about looking to the future so let me move on to our final segment because uh you've all raised kind of points about how this is possibly going to change as we move forward uh hopefully for more success stories but how do we get there because the simple fact is that uh women's sports the WNBA pay um has generated so much attention perhaps because it is a sign that times are changing it's hit people's radars it's being discussed it's being commented on more widely But how do you put those words into action? And how do you assess the difficulties women's face to become pre professional athletes? And to Howard's point, how do you celebrate the successes they've achieved and be able to build on that? Um, Katherine, let me ask you first because you uh have a a history working with women in this capacity. Uh women have entered the workforce in all fields on lower pay than men. In sports specifically, uh their leagues haven't been around as long as the men's leagues. What other kind of barriers are they facing? And is there the same energy put into helping them overcome those barriers as there has been energy in other forms uh of gender inequality in the past? Yeah, it it's a great question because we've seen a lot of this happen uh throughout women's sports where um something like a a low salary means that a woman is going to a low salary in sport means a woman will also have to carry multiple part-time jobs just to make ends meet on top of her professional career in sport. We've definitely seen that happen in cycling. And so one of the things that is happening and also needs to keep happening is pushing for a base salary that is a livable wage and that is on par with the salary that's happening on the men's side of the sport. And of course, as you can probably imagine, I'm going to equate that to cycling. Um where for for many many years, the women were not deemed to have deserved a base salary. That's straight from the mouth of the UCI president just 10 years ago. And what was happening was that women were who made it to the world tour level which is the highest level in cycling uh were on a pittance of a stipend you know that was not set to a degree of any any sort sort of level. So some athletes were making less than $10,000 trying to race professionally and um really having to carry jobs on top of that. So we did lobby for a women's base salary which finally not until 2020 went through and uh the women at the world tour level now have a base salary of 35,000 euro. That's not a lot of money. We are trying very hard to push it up to 50 and then 100 etc to take steps up. But the fact of the matter is that we still have to push so hard just to have equal footing for the same amount of work that the men are doing and the same amount of races that the men are doing. And I think that's very important that we we understand no women in professional sports are asking for a handout. They are asking for equal wage compared to the equal hours and the equal races andor games that they are playing. And so these are the things that often have to be exc these are often areas that have to be exposed where people who are listening to this think oh wait they don't make this they don't make that or they don't understand and then what happens is the women you know really are just kind of uh you know part of tradition where because it's always been this way that women were only paid that that's how it continues until disruption occurred. curves, benevolent disruption like we are seeing in the WNBA right now with those wonderful shirt shirts that say, you know, pay pay us what you owe us. And now the media clings to this and has a story to to write about it. But we didn't know that unless we heard from inside the sport what was really happening. So these are the things that will still have to happen in all of women's sports until we're at a platform where we can negotiate for equity. And uh so yeah that's a that's a long answer to your question and I think it's only half of the answer but I'll I'll pause there.
>> Uh Pearl the fact that we are seeing change the fact that uh there is this agitation uh as we've seen in all other areas uh where this agitation has happened in the past. Is it not inevitably heading in the the right the same direction? You might not think it's the right direction, but but surely women's sport is just going to continue to grow.
>> Um, I think it'll grow, but still losing money. It'll just keep losing money every single year. I have no problem with equality when you have equal outcomes. But again, what women want is they don't want to do the work that men did. They don't want the outcome that men have. they want to complain about. Are you gonna berate her for interrupting me or is this just one-sided? Well, you know, so so
>> keep going.
>> You know, my next question is, do you do you know how much loggers make in the United States? A logger makes $43,000 a year. So that you guys have the chair like the wood in the background, the chairs that you're sitting on. Um, we live this such privileged such a privileged life as women. Crab fishermen. Again, somebody died.
>> But just to bring you back to the to the topic at hand, Pearl. Um, just because we're focusing on sport, we're almost out of time. I just want to know. Uh,
>> my my point is there's no air time for that.
>> It's all cry me a river. Even though we're not profitable, pay me more money. Uh I think uh there's I'm not sure what evidence you have that women don't want to put in the work. Where do you get that statement from?
>> She she doesn't and and just to point out this is a woman who has advocated publicly that women shouldn't have the right to vote on one here online. So just kind of take all of that with a grain of salt. This is a person who lives for clearly attention over actual facts. But again, I just want to reiterate uh and thank Katherine for what she's been able to do. And it goes back to that when you actually look at the proper investment input that goes into women's sports, just to your actual question and not a random thing about loggers. Um that we've seen that progress, the progress continues to grow. Pearl obviously has made a brand around pretending these things aren't happening, but I'm excited and encouraged by the fact that this movement is so enormous that she hasn't been able to really break through and I do feel very badly for her cuz I doubt she ever will.
>> Uh we are out of time. I wish that we could continue for a little bit longer because uh it it's a obviously it's a hot button issue. Everyone has a lot to say about it, but we are out of time. So, we are unfortunately going to have to leave it there, but I really do appreciate all of your contributions. Thank you so much to our panel joining us on Counterpoints to discuss this. We have Katherine um Betrine, the CEO of the Homestretch Foundation, which provides free housing for female professional athletes struggling with the gender pay gap. Howard Magdal joining us, sports writer and author of the upcoming book, Becoming Caitlyn Clark on that record-breaking WNBA Player. And rounding out our panel, Pearl Davis, thank you for being with us. A American YouTuber and cultural commentator. Thanks everyone for your contribution to Counterpoints.