Transcription
Hi everyone, this is Marjorie Taylor Greene. Now, just recently I conducted an interview with someone who I find to be very fascinating, Payman Manahed of the Freedom Law School. And the reason why I wanted to talk to him is because there's an important issue that Americans are actually talking about and that is not paying their taxes. It went viral over the holidays where many Americans were so upset by the Somali daycare fraud that they were posting all over media that they were not going to pay their taxes. But Americans are furious for many reasons and they don't want to pay taxes.
Number one, they're tired of the national debt. We're nearing 40 trillion in debt and this is what the government has done to America. But there's many more reasons. They don't want their money sent off to foreign wars, foreign causes, to pay for regime change in foreign countries that they've never even been to. And Americans are tired of the fraud. They're tired of the waste, they're tired of the abuse, and they're tired of no one being held accountable.
Well, I found Payman's discussion to be extremely interesting. After all, he is an American that came here as a teenager from Iran. He loves this country and he believes America is the greatest country in the world, but he hasn't paid taxes, income taxes, for over 30 years. So, I decided to talk to someone else and today joining me is Joe Banister, a former IRS agent who he himself does not pay taxes. So, Joe, thanks for joining me today. Um, I really want to dig into this with you. Uh, I have to be honest, I was a little skeptical when I first talked to Payman. I was like, is this guy lying to me? Um, how can this be real? Because as Americans, uh, we just live most of our lives believing believing we have to file and pay our income taxes. We believe that's the law and of course no one wants to go to jail. Um, so I'm very interested to talk to you. So, can you tell me, uh, when did you work for the IRS?
I started in November of 1993. Uh, that's when I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. I was sworn in in Oakland, California and then my first, uh, duty station was in San Francisco, California. Uh, born and raised in San Jose, California, about 50 miles south of San Francisco. And um, I share your, um, trepidation when you first met Payman because that happened to me back in 1997.
Um, Is that when you first met Payman? Yes. >> Okay, wow. So, were you an IRS agent when you met Payman? Yes, IRS special agent in the Criminal Investigation Division of the IRS. And Payman was not paying taxes. Well, I didn't meet him because I was investigating him. >> [laughter] >> Um, basically the my backstory is that I I would typically listen to talk radio. You know, we are talking about the '90s when we didn't have a internet like we have today, so uh, but I would listen to talk radio and there's a talk radio station out there, KSFO. Okay. Still there today and a host named Jeff Metcalf, uh, who was a like Army Green Beret, you know, trustworthy. I think I think he rose to the rank rank of colonel. Wow. Um, retired out of the military, but everything that he ever talked about was very truthful. Um, maybe he sided more with the Republicans, but he he all his motto was, um, it's not, uh, who is right or wrong, but what is right or wrong. You know, like what is That's great. It's, uh, >> That's what we should be doing today. >> Yes. He was He was ahead of his time. I'm an IRS criminal investigator, but I didn't lose sight of the oath that I took and I just I really like listening to him cuz he was very pro-Constitution. Everything that he ever talked about on the radio checked out. Hm.
So, one day I was, uh, I think it was December of 1996. I'm listening to the radio and he has a guest on his show who claimed the income tax wasn't required to be paid by the vast majority of Americans. Okay. And so, I'm driving around in my government car with my handcuffs, my SIG Sauer 9 mm, >> That's crazy. bulletproof vest, you know, everything ready >> The badge, the whole bit. And, you know, cuz I'm out there enforcing the income tax laws and money laundering laws. And so, um, I again, we're talking the '90s, so she had these booklets that you could send away for in a place in Colorado. And it cost like $2 a book, so she wasn't making any money on it. She just needed, you know, for postage. >> So, I literally sent away for these booklets in December of 1996 and I received the booklets in January of 1997. So, I'd already been with the IRS a little over 3 years. And I enjoyed the job immensely, but not because I was, you know, shaking people down for their meal receipts and things. I was going after money launderers and you know, big ticket, um, lawbreakers. And so, >> Which is important. Yeah, um, even to this day I'm not anti-tax or anti-government, you know, I but I would I would expect my government to obey the law and the Constitution. Of course.
So, um, January of '97 I get these materials and uh, they're basically like 40 to 50-page booklets and they list, you know, and there might have been some websites, but we're talking about, you know, 1997. But there were phone numbers and press releases and newspaper articles and those kinds of things. And but there was more information than this DV kid was her name, uh, taught was able to talk about in a 1-hour show. So, that was kind of my springboard into just starting to dig in and basically investigate the federal income tax and so, by day I would go to work as an IRS criminal investigator, um, you know, doing search warrants and making arrests. Um, I was the asset forfeiture coordinator for the Central California District, the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force Coordinator, uh, firearms instructor. Uh, I from a grade of seven to grade 13, um, within 5 years. >> Wow. Um, so, I really worked hard at the job. I expected to spend a full 20-year career there. >> Of course, yeah. But, um, this at this 3-year point I begin to do this investigation on evenings and weekends and off-duty cuz I didn't ask anyone at the IRS for permission. I felt as a citizen, you know, I could look into these things and certainly the kind of job that I did, I felt it was, um, really important and urgent that I get to the bottom of it. You took an oath to uphold the Constitution. Right. But as you said with meeting Payman, you're thinking, uh, come on. You know, what's what's Yeah. >> what's going on here? And I mean, so you can imagine an IRS special agent like I'm really thinking what's going on here, but >> Oh, I'm sure. I can imagine you must have been pretty conflicted. Yeah. Well, it started out just thinking this can't be true. Well, that's what I said. Yeah. And so, uh, but you know, what are criminal investigators all about? About gathering evidence. And so, during a 2-year period, basically throughout 1997 and 1998, I drove my family, especially my wife, crazy with, you know, I'm already working a 50-hour work week Yeah. and, you know, plus commute, plus trying to be, you know, soccer coach with the the young sons and but meanwhile I'm going to the law library cuz it's not like today where you can just get on the internet and do word searches and >> No, it was much more complicated. >> So, I'd, you know, go up to the San Francisco law library, the San Jose law library, the IRS's own law library, um, just researching, researching, going to regular libraries and buying buying books, renting books, checking out books. Um, That's incredible. You were basically pursuing your own law degree. I felt like it after after a while. And I also realizing though that even though I was a certified public accountant at the time, I had gone through the IRS, uh, training, 16 weeks of training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, >> Okay. >> continuing ongoing training while an IRS special agent, uh, yet the things that I was learning were never taught. Supreme Court case law about the income tax To IRS agents? No, in other words, court cases that we were never taught during our training. >> Wow. And, you know, Supreme Court case law is pretty important. I would say so. >> But then if you're looking at those cases and they say something different than what the IRS does on a day-to-day basis, you can understand why maybe the IRS doesn't want to train you on those on those kinds of things. Or rather they should, but you're because your job is you're investigating people and the the outcome of your investigation can lead to people going to prison. >> Right. So, you were having to do your own research to actually find out what the law actually said Right. and how it would affect people that you're investigating. >> Right. And there's a different culture in the IRS. My literally my first day on the job before I was taken across the bay to be sworn in, I, you know, because I came from the private sector and was raised to work if you're if you're earning money, you don't just sit there twiddling your thumbs, but I didn't have any cases yet cuz it's literally the first day. All right. >> And so I see the Internal Revenue Code up on the shelf and I picked it up and I put it on my desk and I started to read the statutes that I was going to be investigating and enforcing. And my boss comes over and he says, "What are you doing looking in that book?" What? Hold on. Yeah. Wait, you're reading the IRS code. You are an agent for the IRS and your boss is questioning you why you're reading that book. Yes. I didn't have any other nothing else in the desk cuz I'm literally in my first day on the job. And I come from the CPA, you know, I worked for KPMG. >> Yeah. Uh you know, like >> I mean, back then, my gosh, what a huge accounting and auditing firm. Yeah. >> They were one of the big six if I recall. Yeah, well, big eight when I was there, but >> Sorry. Yeah, the six, the four, it kind of depends on what >> No, but they were one of the biggest in in America and um no, you have such a credible career. Yeah. So I I anyway, that didn't go over too well and I'm thinking to myself, "Wow, this is a culture shock." Cuz I I just wasn't prepared for that kind of a remark. I I don't think Americans would be prepared to hear that that was a remark being made. Yeah. And I thought, "What could be more innocent or or appropriate to actually investigate the actual, you know, look into the laws I'd be enforcing." I hadn't been to training at the in Georgia yet. Um but again, I just just out of a sense of the American people are paying me to do a job. I'm not going to just sit here and, you know, drink Cokes all day. >> So would you say that kind of set the tone for the culture that you experienced at the IRS? Yeah, and it since that was day one, I still had 3 years of, you know, pristine, shall we say, career where I hadn't learned any of this information. And so I really was like, "Wow, this is great. I'm I'm a fed, you know, I'm a I'm a federal criminal investigator in my Eventually, I was in my own hometown doing surveillances and working with the locals, California Highway Patrol, these Palo Alto Police Department, um San Jose Police Department, and just thinking, "Wow, I'm getting paid to do this job. This is really cool." Yeah. No, it was a dream job. You were pursuing your career.
So in the meantime, you've got a very busy, uh growing family, you're working hard, but you're spending a lot of the time in these different libraries doing your own research. Uh that was 1997-98, you said. What happened?
Well, at at near the end of night well, uh so that's where I met Paymon was >> Okay, yeah. during 1997, yeah. >> All right. >> During 1997, uh is when I met Paymon. I met him over the phone. So I began to I communicate >> was not under investigation, everybody. By Joe. Yeah, correct. Okay. Um but he, you know, was was among the people that I encountered and then Paymon uh took it upon himself to to make arrangements for me to meet other people who had even more knowledge or were very credible, not that Paymon wasn't credible, but lawyers who knew this information and CPAs and um just a a cavalcade of of credible people. That's amazing. So I always say this about people in California that they're some of the toughest Americans, um best patriots because they always fight the system really hard and who knew that this was going on back in the late '90s in California? Yeah, of all places. So you're what I would call an expert because you're an IRS agent and Paymon said, "No, let me introduce you to these others." And so attorneys and so forth. Right. How did that go?
It was eye-opening. And I I I had if I had any bias, it would be against that this could possibly be true. But things like Supreme Court cases, IR the Code of Federal Regulations, the Internal Revenue Code, um you know, testimony before Congress back in the '50s, the '60s, you know, basically, you know, the IRS uses the paper trail against people that they prosecute and that they audit. And it was actually the paper trail of the IRS that convinced me that there's something to this, you know, just the documentation. Um so >> So So what would that be if you give an example? What type of documentation?
Well, um like I mentioned Supreme Court case law. It just wasn't something maybe there was one or two like, you know, McCulloch versus Maryland, you know, some a case from the 17 or 1800s, um but in terms of case law on point about what income is, uh what the definition of income is in the Constitution, particularly the 16th Amendment. >> Right. Cuz, you know, the public and even me as a as a special agent, like income is just income, right? I mean, it's kind of ubiquitous. It's everything. But the Supreme Court says, "No, it's very narrow as to what income actually is." So this information wasn't obviously easy to find and it wasn't it sitting there nicely in in one little law book in a library. You were having to piece it together from multiple libraries and multiple people. Yes. And at the same time, you're an IRS agent. Mhm. Uh probably the one of the one of the watershed moments was I it was typical that if there was a search warrant on a big property where there would be a lot of people, then they'd have to call agents from all over different regions. Right. And so there was a search warrant down in Southern California and so all the agents, including myself, from Northern California were taken down to this big property to do to execute a search warrant. Sure. And we go into this very huge house and they had walk-in closets and walk-in everything. I mean, it was it was big. Anyway, the gentleman had a library of books. And I walk into this little library that he had and I'm looking at the books cuz you know, we're seizing things. We're seizing jewelry. We're seizing anything that might indicate that this gentleman has broken the law. Wow. And I start to encounter books that I had on my own shelf. Oh my gosh. You're kidding me. Oh, that had to be such a weird like realization. Yeah. Yeah. So you're in the process of seizing this man's property and his wife's property. He's under massive investigation. Obviously, you guys had a warrant. This was a big, big operation and you're seeing the same books that you're reading. What did you think?
Well, it wasn't my case. In other words, like I said, we were brought down to just you know, do certain things. At the time, I was the asset forfeiture coordinator, so >> Okay. even though there were a lot of agents that were senior to me, it was my job to be able to justify that whatever was taken, we had the authority to take or at least, you know, take into evidence. Yeah. And there was a couple of them, you know, the guys that had white hair back when I had brown hair, who said, uh you know, >> all of us. They wanted to take They wanted to take a bunch more than they were authorized to take. And so I had to, you know, go toe-to-toe with these older agents and say, "Look, I'm the asset forfeiture coordinator. I have to be responsible for this this stuff that we're taking." And we're not taking They wanted to take the jewelry. They wanted to take all kinds of stuff that just wasn't authorized. And so I just said, "Look, we're not doing it." And they they backed off. Good for you. >> the the wife and the daughter were actually present when I was having this this argument with these other agents and they're just like, "Why is that guy sticking up for us?" But it was more just sticking up for the law >> The law. and not wanting to break the law. And these other some of the other agents were just very cavalier, you know, it's like, "Well, let's take the jewelry. Let's take the stuff out of this closet." Like they just wanted to mess with the people. That's what it seemed like. I couldn't read their mind, but Or actually, they didn't know what you knew. Well, they they that wasn't their responsibility, but then they were just so cavalier about, you know, just taking everything. Take all the jewelry. Like, "Well, if you don't have the justification, why are you taking someone's property without >> Basically stealing their property. I mean, that's yeah, I would call it theft if you take it without Incredible. >> permission or or right, sure. Well, I would imagine they were not happy with you that day. No, but I fortunately I had the the position of the asset forfeiture coordinator, so they had to just kind of back off because I I had earned a pretty good reputation by that time as a, you know, a hard worker and um you know, straight with everyone. I didn't didn't play favorites or wasn't a jerk to anybody. But that that day was a real watershed because I'm like, "Okay, well, I've got the same books." And not only the same books, but I mean, some of those books had some really powerful information in them. Oh, yeah. Part of what convinced me or at least opened my eyes to things that the IRS never taught me, was never on the CPA exam, you know, not not not in my tax class at San Jose State University. So I'm sure you were wondering like, "Who is this guy?" Yeah, and what like why why wouldn't I have been shown this information during an IRS training? I mean, if I'm here to support and defend the Constitution, right? >> Of course. the law, but they're not they're hiding They're hiding all these parts of the law. >> Yeah. Yeah.
So, um it was about 2 years 2 and 1/4 years of this off-duty you know, just just pounding on it just little by little and chipping away. Uh so, when it got to be early 1999, I you know, I was talking with Paymon pretty frequently. He'd introduced me to all kinds of, you know, patriotic people who again, it wasn't really about their personality necessary necessarily even though they're all salt of the earth people, but they were um they had real evidence to show me. Like um internal IRS transcripts that showed it showed fraudulent coding. Um information out of the Internal Revenue Manual, which is the IRS's Bible, right? About how they're supposed to actually enforce and administer the law. They showed me sections out of that that I thought had to be made up. That the IRS had very limited authority. And I went I went upstairs to the IRS law library while I was working there and I went to find those sections that I thought maybe they just put together on a copy machine. >> match those codes? The Well, they're actually the the it basically is the the Bible of the IRS that tells the agents what they can and can't do. >> Oh, okay. And so, these pages that I received from people in the in the public Right. I thought maybe you're just copying and pasting and cutting and pasting and making this up. Cuz it was like the the authority was so limited. Yeah. So much more limited than what I was taught was the case. >> Okay. So, I go up into their books and you know, maybe nowadays everything's on the internet, right? But then you have you actually have the little pages and you have to turn them and go to the right page. So, I went and I checked and the the same pages that I was shown from these people these witnesses outside in the public were right there in the IRS's own rulebook. And I'm like So, the people were right. >> right. They were showing >> to say, "Look, here it is right here." And the IRS has that information in their own library, but yet the IRS is prosecuting these people. Is that correct? >> Yes. In fact >> What in the world? >> In the in the in the San Jose office where I worked, uh there was an Internal Revenue Code. The story I told you before, that was in San Francisco, my first day on the job. But then when I migrated down to San Jose, my hometown, I went to look for an Internal Revenue Code in the office. It had dust on it. No. Nobody ever looked at it. Oh, wow. >> Had dust on it. So, uh >> That's That's not good. That's not good at all. So, it's it's really honestly hard to comprehend. So, imagine these people I'm imagine Well, I can easily imagine it. Attorneys cost a lot of money. They charge by the hour, so I would imagine these people that were trying to show these pages, if they're being prosecuted, they're they're having to defend themselves with attorneys, they're spending a lot of money on that, all the stress and everything they're going to while they're trying to fight it and say, "No, I'm I'm right." They they're The IRS actually has the information, but it's still prosecuting them. Yeah. And these are Americans. >> Yes. In the freest country in the world. That's I mean, that's the reason when I was >> that's what we're told, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, that's why I was naive enough, I guess, to go work for the IRS. I had actually applied to the FBI and the IRS. And >> Right. Listen, Joe, I get that. I was naive enough to run for Congress and serve there. And guess what? I found out a lot of bad things, too. It's a terribly broken system. >> aren't we? >> That's right. >> [laughter] >> Me and you. Um so, this is incredible. So, so what happened next?
Well, I I knew there were certain certain principles that I needed to stick to, okay? I mean, first of all was the oath to support and defend Well, actually first was God, but you take an oath to support and defend the Constitution Yeah. and you take it to God or in front you before God. And so, um you know, that was non-negotiable right there. I took an oath, I took it to God. And so, I have to remember the Constitution first of all. But there's also uh Treasury Rules of Conduct. There are the ethics of the CPA profession. I was a CPA for 15 years. Um my parents raised me not to steal from people or help other people steal from people, right? Yeah. And so, there was enough evidence to convince me that I needed to speak up. And so, all >> weighed very heavy on your conscience. Yeah, it did. It did. It was very difficult for my family in the sense that, you know, my wife we had to take a tremendous pay cut to go from the private sector and get the job in the IRS. >> Sure. And I thought, "Well, you know, I'll work I'll work my way up the ranks and it'll be okay and you know, 20 years." Cuz it's a 20-year retirement. >> And in law enforcement. So, anyway, so I had to um um kind of kind of difficult. I what I did is I I gathered together some of the highlights of the evidence that I had gathered and you know, tried to keep all all opinion out of it. Just just facts. >> The facts. Of the case. Yeah. I mean, that's what I was paid to to learn to learn how to do I was trained to do it. So, I gathered the facts, not everything cuz it would be it would fill, you know, thousands of pages. >> wrote The Case for Christ. >> Mhm. You put together the case for not paying income taxes. As an IRS agent. Duh, un- unwittingly. This is great. >> [laughter] >> So, uh anyway, I gathered together my facts because I was basically going to approach my immediate supervisor who's called a group manager. And then his supervisor is called a special agent in charge, an SAC. And so, I did approach him and say actually he already knew because he was a friend of the family. Ah. He already knew this was going on because my mom and my wife, unbeknownst to me, went to him and said, "What's up with Joe?" Aw, because they're good women. Yeah. And they loved you. >> [laughter] >> So, they were doing they were having some conversations that I didn't learn till later. >> worried. >> [laughter] >> But he said, "I don't know. I I you know, I know Joe's an honorable guy and I just not he didn't really know how to how to deal with it." But he was my boss, so I had to um funnel my concerns through him up the chain of command. And so, I I provided, you know, the evidence that I had gathered, not everything, but the highlights. And I basically I wrote a transmittal letter with this report that I had put together and I said, "Look, I've gone to the bat for the agency and the income tax, but you know, I took an oath to to support and defend the Constitution and I I can't serve two masters. There's There's something There's something here that I need to speak up about it. You all are special agents, too. You all took the same oath that I did. Yeah. You're all governed by the same Treasury Rules of Conduct. This is a bitter pill that I'm offering to you, but we we we have we have a duty to grapple with this. It's the truth. It's because it's the truth. No, you did the right thing. I did the same thing in Congress with the Epstein files. I fought to release the Epstein files and that resulted in President Trump calling me a traitor. I've followed your story very closely. Let me tell you something, though. I'm not sorry. And I bet you're not sorry, either. I'm not. I mean, living by the truth is um it's There's nothing like it. And I don't I don't want to I don't want to venture and see Yeah. what it's like to live the other way. But >> No. No. We sleep good at night. Yeah. >> So, how did how did they respond to this?
Well, uh it took a couple days of of digestion. That's a bitter pill. And I was called into the special agent in charge's uh office a couple days after I provided the information. You had to have been so nervous. I was. I I really was. So, I sit down with the the group manager and then special agent in charge and he says, "Joe, what I'm about to do I've been instructed to do." Uh he handed me a memorandum. And this is all on my website, you know, people can check it out for themselves. But it basically said that we will not be responding to any of your questions or concerns. And we will provide you with the paperwork necessary to tend to your resignation. And you can go down This wasn't in the memo, but he told me you can go downstairs with your group manager and hand over your firearm, your credentials, your badge, and we'll leave you with a pager. You know, we're talking the '90s. >> [laughter] >> We'll leave you with a pager. We're going to send you home for a week of administrative leave and then you can tell us uh how you'd like to proceed after being home for a week. Unbelievable. So, you exposed the truth to the government agency that basically holds people's lives in their hands as they investigate and prosecute and is supposed to uphold the law and the Constitution. And you gave them the truth and they fired you or wanted you to resign. They asked you to resign. Yeah. Uh the I I did ask. I said, I you know, can you tell me how far up the chain of command that you let them know that I had these concerns? And this the SAC said that the Assistant Commissioner for Criminal Investigation was aware. And he answers to the Commissioner of the IRS. I would imagine that went to the top. So, that's how how high up it went. Um anyway, so >> What year was this again? Uh 1999. >> 1999. >> February of 1999. Wow. So, um anyway, I did go home for a week. Yeah. And uh and then that's when I had the you know the I mean my wife already knew that this was going on. >> Sure. But she didn't know how it was all going to come to a to a head. Oh, it had to be stressful. You had children and bills and Yeah. So, uh I said, you know, I'm probably going to have to go ahead and resign because I I had a I earned a very good reputation there. And I thought, you know, if if they if I want to stick around here or they're able to destroy my reputation, then nobody's going to believe me. Well, the government that's what the government does. They're pretty good at it. Once you become a problem, that's what they do. They destroy your reputation. That's that's the first step. >> I had a premonition, but you know, praise the Lord that just like got to keep that reputation cuz it might help you in the future. So, >> That's right. >> it'd be better to resign and then you're also aware of how you're much more limited in how you can speak when you're you know literally employed by the federal government. >> Mhm. Um you know, Hatch Act and all all kinds of different things. So, uh I just decided that it'd probably be best not to mention you know, they plant something in my desk. I mean you know, I just you never know. And granted, the people in my office I felt were good people. Um you know, I trusted them. We'd go kicking indoors and search warrants and you know, we don't want to be killed by friendly fire. No, I'm sure you had many questions in your mind. Yeah, a lot a lot of swirling going on. >> Yeah. But uh basically the the message I was you know, getting was I really need to resign and so that's uh I've actually resigned on my birthday uh February 25th, 1999. And turns out that February 25th, 1913 is when the Secretary of State uh claimed that the 16th Amendment the income tax amendment was was ratified. How about that? >> the same birthday with the income tax amendment. >> That's crazy. Yeah. So, um yeah, I was born 50 years after the the income tax and then I resigned uh you know, when I was what 36 years old on my birthday. >> Wow. On the anniversary of that day. >> Yeah. That's the irony of that says a lot. Well, I would ask kind of ask the Lord like um why is this happening to me? >> You know, why is this happening? Why am I doing this? And I kept having me look at my birthday. Yeah. I mean It speaks to you.
So, what then? You're you're now basically unemployed.
Uh Well, then I now I've got like a lot of more balls in the air I'm juggling. It's you know, taking care of my family first and foremost to provide for my family. But then I've just you know, um lit a lit a fuse of a stick of dynamite inside the IRS. Big time. >> Did it personally. Um and but also realized that well, okay, well, what did all this evidence show for what Joe Banister is going to do about his own personal tax situation? That was like a challenge, right? You found you found out everything and now you're moving on to private employment. So, what does Joe Banister do with his own personal income?
Well, so the the first step was I say protect my family and earn and make a living. Of course. >> So, I went back to the CPA firm that I left when I went into the IRS. Okay. And I they wanted me back cuz it's like, well Joe was great before he went into the IRS. We liked him. Now he's got 5 years of IRS Criminal Investigator experience. >> KPMG. Uh no, this is a smaller firm. They used to be managers at KPMG. >> Okay. So, um they're like, oh, we'd love to have you back. >> Yeah, come on back, Joe. So, within a week or two of leaving the IRS, I was back working again. >> good. But there comes a point generally when you start a new job where they give you the W-4 for withholding. That's usually pretty quick. And so I said, well, I can't sign this because this is a voluntary withholding agreement and I start you know, reciting the >> [laughter] >> This is great. You're at an accounting firm and they're giving you the standard paperwork and you're you're like a former IRS agent saying, I can't sign this. Yeah, and so >> laugh or what? Well, I'm dealing with their their personnel people. >> Okay. They didn't know what you're talking about. >> you'll you'll love the rest of the story. So, um so I told the personnel people, you know, I'm not required to fill this out and uh you know, I'm not going to fill it out. I mean if you can show me a law that requires it, I'm a law-abiding person. Of course, there is no law that requires it. So, uh by I think this is maybe like the beginning of the week this W-4 thing happened. So, by the end of the week one of the two partners invites me out to lunch. Okay. And uh so at lunch he proceeds to tell me uh Joe, I guess it's not going to work out after all. Oh, man. Because you refused to sign your W-4. And so I said, well, you know, I mean all I was asking for if there's a law that requires it, Mhm. I would absolutely just show me the law and I'll fill it out. So, I'm envisioning this as these very educated, accomplished um >> CPAs CPAs at an accounting firm and they're looking at you like you're going not going to abide by the law because they lack the knowledge. And you had gained the knowledge. And and I guess >> Of the Constitution and the law. I all I wanted to do is have a Whenever you want to have a discussion about it, then they just all of a sudden things get really quiet and suspicious and >> Sure. And so anyway, >> Because we as Americans believe we have to pay income tax. Right. As I'm sure all of their clients >> But the shocking part is is the experts don't know that you don't have to pay income tax. Well, or they don't want to know. Or okay, true. That Yeah, that for sure. Well, that was clear in the IRS. Yeah. >> They knew. They knew better than anybody. Yes. And they just didn't want an agent that knew too. So, anyway, the lunch didn't It was a good lunch, but didn't go so well because that was the that was the end of my short week at the news at the CPA firm that I had come from. So, back out you know, looking for work. Yeah. Um meanwhile, you know, there is uh I had resigned in February of 1999. Okay. >> So, April 15th of 1999 would have been for the 1998 tax returns. Right. So, I had worked the entire 1998 year for the IRS. For the federal government. >> And I figured, you know, I think it would be appropriate since I had withholding from my paycheck and I'd been filing most of my life, I'm going to file a 1998 tax return. Because the year's already like over. >> Makes sense. Yep. But again, I nobody wrote books on I mean there's books out there, but in terms of like guidance, it's really just prayer and just saying, Lord, you know, please guide me. I'm I want to be open to your guidance and but I'm kind of out you know, I'm on this wire without a net. Sure. So, um anyway, so the we filed the 1998 tax return in April of 1999. But then all of 1999 went went by. And then when April of of 2000 came along, I did not file a 1999 federal tax return. Okay. And that was you >> And you and that year you were not employed by the federal government. >> for myself. >> You were self-employed. And basically, you know, looking at well, all the evidence that I'd gathered while I was an IRS agent, the IRS suspiciously refused to talk about answer, let alone even talk about. >> Right. So, I had to go with what I knew to be true. Yeah. Uh even if the IRS didn't like it. Even if we know they don't like it. So, I wrote even wrote letters to the IRS after I left. Um I I joined up with a group uh called the We the People Foundation for Constitutional Education. Amazing. >> And we had uh symposiums that were at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. Just across the street from the the Treasury Treasury Building. God bless you people. And we were on C-SPAN with these symposiums where we're trying to get right in the backyard of the federal government and >> showed you? And C-SPAN actually showed us. >> That's really awesome. Good for C-SPAN. Probably the last time that they would ever do that again, but I don't know. They show a lot of stuff. So, we had these symposiums and that got even more attention, you know, from from the government. Uh I was interviewed by the New York Times. Uh I was on 60 Minutes. They did a hit piece on me. So, I felt really really good about that. >> of honor there. Yeah. Yeah, you're doing good. You're climbing the ranks. Yes, um but anyway, it uh in 2001, so about two two years after I had left, I learned that I was under IRS criminal investigation. How'd you find that out? Uh Did you get a letter? What happened? I believe they were they started to talk to people in in the public. And so I learned from people like, "Hey, I got visited by some special agents from the IRS, and they were asking about you." But they didn't tell you directly. They didn't notify you that you were under investigation? I don't >> standard procedure? I I honestly don't know. You know, I don't think they I don't think they have to tell you. >> required to. Okay. Sometimes they do cuz maybe they think it'll be an easy plea or they can, you know, jack you up with a letter. But I don't I don't think it's required. And so in my case, um I just learned from their public contacts >> Right. >> got back to me. I think it was in Florida at the time, and I learned that, "Oh, so I'm under criminal investigation. What what for?" What for? >> [sighs] >> Um So, anyway, I just continued to and I mean, I never really sought out publicity. I just when people would say, "You know, there's actually an IRS criminal investigator that investigated the income tax, and he left over it, and he stopped filing over it, and Yeah. So, people were kind of interested. >> Oh, yeah, they were interested. They were like, "Hold on, what?" But of course, the the federal, you know, the IRS and the DOJ were were interested also. >> Well, you're giving them quite a credibility problem. Yeah. So, the investigation lasted about three years. So, sometime in 2001, 2002, 2003. Mhm. Then in November of 2004, I was indicted Oh, no. on four felony federal felonies. Four felonies? One was a conspire conspiring to defraud the United States of America. Mhm. And three of them were preparing, as a CPA, preparing three false federal income tax returns. See, this is this is what terrifies people. Is hearing about things like this. Mhm. Now, at that time, I had already not filed a federal tax return for five years. For five years. Okay. >> And yet, I wasn't charged with anything having to do with my personal circumstances. Wow. They they tried to focus the to take the focus away from my personal circumstances and what I believed about my, you know, personal whether I had a requirement by law to file or not, and tried to smear me and my client. What happened was the client wanted to He'd already been paying federal income taxes his whole adult life, and he wanted to sue the government to get some of his income taxes back. Oh my gosh. So, not only he was really giving it to him. Okay. So, the first step is you have to amend your prior tax returns. That's kind of the first step in the process of seeking to get your money back. Okay. So, you know, we already know Joe's a little naive, right? So, he comes to me and he says, "Look, I want to pursue the IRS to get my money back, and I need to file these tax returns to do it. Will you help me to make sure that I follow the law, all the procedures, and I don't want to make any mistakes, and I don't want to break any laws." >> Okay. And I thought, "Well, that's what a CPA should do. Sure. I'll I'll help you do that." Okay. So, those three tax returns, the IRS turned into and DOJ turned into false refund claims. So, they weren't even yours? No, I prepared them on on his behalf. >> them on his behalf. Okay. I see now. And then the fourth charge was conspiring with him. Ah, I see. Now, there's something that is interesting to this is also it's a smear campaign that they can put headlines and and about you and basic because you had become um you went public and you were talking about this. You had been on C-SPAN and and the New York Times and CNN and so, you were a credible threat. Uh and so, part of um I in my opinion, I would think part of the indictments were also to smear your name and take away your credibility. Well, I learned quite a bit later, but I learned that you'll you'll never guess who the head of the DOJ tax division, who would have approved my indictment, was a guy named Rod Rosenstein. Oh my gosh, you can't even make that up. Wow. I also learned that the special agent >> big government. >> Yeah. And deep state. >> "Oh, you did really good at the DOJ tax division. We got some credible. Yeah, you were a threat. That's amazing.
So, how many years did you have to fight that?
Uh so, November of 2004 was indicted. Uh I was arrested by agents that I used to work with. Oh, jeez. Sorry. And I was arrested in San Jose, California, and the the court was in Sacramento, Federal District Court in Sacramento. And so, it's it's kind of comical, actually, because I was the, you know, a firearms instructor and defensive tactic tactics instructor at the IRS. So, we would always train doing arrests. And so, I was typically, cuz I in my in my cubicle, I had bumper stickers that said, you know, "Fear the government that fears your guns." Yeah. >> And the experts agree, gun control works, and it's, you know, Mao and Castro. And so, they kind of knew me as the Constitution guy, even Pro-Second Amendment. We like that. Okay. So, I always I always ended up being the taxpayer in the training >> [laughter] >> because You were the one that they were always arresting. >> Yeah. Oh, you can't even make that up. Oh my gosh. So, >> So, it what in practice it turned into real life. >> Real life. So, I, you know, gave up peacefully, and uh they cuffed cuffed me in the front, which is like if they're still working there, they're probably getting in trouble, you know, not cuffed me in the back. Had a nice little um bottle of water there for me in their SUV. That was nice. So, we get in the car, and they're they're from Redding up in North Northern California, right? And they didn't know how to get from San Jose to Sacramento. So, I had to give that We had this in before GPS. Yeah. So, I had to actually give
The map books. I had to give directions to the agents who investigated me, how to get to the courthouse. It's amazing. Every, every detail of this is so funny.
[laughter]
So, we got me up to Sacramento. It's about a 2-hour drive. And not much conversation during the ride. And so, you know, from my perspective, uh, you know, I would see, or, or the arresting agents would bring the arrested person in through the sally port and the gates and the barbed wire, and I would see that from the other side. And now I'm the person within the handcuffs being led into the Sacramento courthouse and into the, you know, the marshal's office to be booked and fingerprinted and photographed.
Unbelievable.
So, um, uh, so, the funny story is when I was leaving the house, it was a little bit chilly cuz it was Feb, it was um, when was it? November, right, when I was arrested. And um, because it was chilly, they said, "Hey, Joe, maybe you ought to get a sweatshirt or something, you know, something on." And so, of course, they don't want me to be digging through my drawers for, you know, firearms or whatever. Even though we worked together, I don't think they really suspected me of doing something like that. But the top sweatshirt in my drawer said US Third Infantry because my youngest brother served in the in the army in the Honor Guard.
Wow.
Was the sweatshirt that you had on?
Put on. So, I wasn't trying to do stolen valor. It's just like, that was just what you could get a sweatshirt on.
Yes. So, when I go into the US Marshal's lockup in handcuffs, I'm wearing the US Third Infantry sweatshirt, and they're like, "Who's this guy?"
Oh, wow. Unbelievable. Okay, so there you're arrested, you're under investigation, they indicted you. Uh, fast forward, how many years did that ta- like, how did that turn out?
Uh, I had 7 months to prepare for trial. The trial occurred in June of 2005. I was indicted November of 2004. Mhm. Um, the, the law firm, uh, Robert Bernhoft, who ended up also defending Wesley Snipes. And the public's probably pretty familiar with, yeah, famous people who've been uh targeted by the IRS and the DOJ. So, Wesley Snipes was acquitted of all, all felonies, and um,
That's right. Oh my gosh, that was, I remember that.
Yeah, Robert Bernhoft was my defense attorney along with a, a gentleman named Jeffrey Dickstein, who's not an attorney anymore. Um, but they were my defense attorneys. So, that day when I was arrested, I basically was, I was released after about 3 hours, even though the prosecutor said to the judge, "Banister's former law enforcement. He's not going to want to go to prison, your honor. He's a flight risk."
Oh gosh, oh please.
Trying to keep me locked up.
Yes. Uh, but that didn't work. So, I was out like in 3 hours.
Okay, so then se- you were
7 months preparing for trial.
For trial. How'd did turn out?
I was deservedly acquitted of all the charges.
That's amazing. Yeah, they, they, they had a 30-year IRS agent as their expert who couldn't point out a single false or fraudulent entry on those three tax returns that I prepared.
That's incredible. The special agent that investigated me, they asked him point-blank, "Did you see any evidence of a conspiracy that that Mr. Banister participated in?" He said, "No."
So, Joe, you were a former IRS agent not paying your own taxes. The, the they came after you and tried to put you in prison for helping someone else, really. And
Helping them obey the law.
Helping them obey the law and do what you were doing, which was really the greatest threat to them, is helping others obey the law and not pay their income taxes. And then you were acquitted. And have you paid taxes ever since?
Uh, no. No.
No. You're still not paying your income taxes.
No. And it's not civil disobedience. It's, it's learning the truth, learning the facts.
Um, this is so fascinating to me. This is what, so, so I, along with most Americans, didn't know that you just didn't have to pay your income tax.
Well, I mean, federal income taxes. Yes. I mean, you, we pay a lot of other taxes. The IRS, you know, it's, it's got its head 80 years or more, 100 years really, but, you know, decades to create this spider web, Mhm, that that can ensnare people. And
Well, we're not the only ones that think paying income taxes is wrong. President Trump agrees that paying in, that we shouldn't be paying taxes.
I was just reviewing a statement that he that he made uh
What did he say about it?
This was uh January of 2005. Actually, I might even need my glasses. Sorry.
No, no worries. I have to wear mine as well.
President Trump said, "It {quote} It's time for the United States to return to the system that made us richer and more powerful than ever before. Instead of taxing our citizens to enrich foreign nations, we should be tariffing and taxing foreign nations to enrich our citizens. {unquote}"
That was January 2025.
That was January 2025. Well, I believe it was April 2nd of 2025, just just a year ago, was Liberation Day where President Trump uh brought in and enacted all the tariffs. Um, to actually to start what he was just talking about there. Is President Trump's vision is for tariffs to replace income taxes, but yet President Trump is solely focused on fighting a war in the Middle East right now. And um, and I think that's a shame. I, I wish he had stayed focused on eliminating taxes because Americans pay far too much taxes. So, that, there's, there's still time, right? He's, he's still the commander-in-chief. He's uh, he's runs the executive branch. Mhm. And um, you know, when after I was acquitted, the IRS uh went and audited me. Cuz you know, I didn't have enough, didn't have enough fun in federal court. Round two. So, they audited me, but that ended up being very valuable because I was able to learn that the IRS actually lies to their own computer systems in order to get assessments.
Okay, yes. So, quickly tell me about that. We you had talked to me briefly about this before.
Well, it's the difficulty is like not getting too much into the weeds where people are like, "But it's..." So, you kind of have to sometimes with the, with the income tax. So, I'll do my best, but I hadn't been filing tax income tax returns. People know the 1040 is the form, right?
Right. Well, there's a form called a 1040A, capital A, 1040A. And that's more of a simplified 1040. But one of the things that a 1040A can do is you can ask the IRS to calculate your tax for you.
Okay.
And there's actually a statute, a federal statute, 6014 of the Internal Revenue Code, that gives the IRS the authority, if you ask them, to calculate your tax for you.
Okay. So, Joe hadn't filed anything, no forms at all. So, I did a FOIA request for all the transcripts of what the IRS was basically saying about me in their own records.
During your audit.
During the audit. That was smart. So, I come to find out that the IRS claimed that I filed a 1040A with them and that I asked the IRS to calculate my tax for me.
And you had not.
And I had not done that. But there were, there was coding, fraudulent coding, that the IRS agents put into the system in order to get assessments against me. Unbelievable. Then I come to find out that they not only did that to me, but they do it, they probably do it to millions of Americans, but I've seen evidence that indicates they've been doing it for decades and they've been doing it across the country to anyone that doesn't file. I learned it from from Paymon as far as how um widespread it is because, you know, Paymon has been helping people for 30 years fight the IRS. And so, he has IRS notices that have been issued to people all around the country for decades. And that same 1040A scam is what they do.
Is what they do to every one of them. Unbelievable. So, I know
How, how does a person document? How do they? How can someone cover their tracks, so to speak? How do you document that you didn't file one of those forms?
Well, uh, how do you prove them wrong? As Paymon probably pointed out, the IRS enforcement and administration in 2026 is a whole different story than when I was there in the '90s.
Yeah. There, there is some kind of an implosion going on. I wish I was a fly on the wall to to see it. Maybe it happened in during COVID when they all refused to show up for work. Probably a big, big part of it.
[laughter]
But anyway, there's something, something bad, good for us, you know, but bad for them going on in the IRS, but
Wow.
Um, the, the, the big clue for the 1040A scam is that you'll see 1040A, 1040A, on the notice. That's the indicator. And then it, when you drill down and and uh do a FOIA for transcripts, that's where you see all the fraudulent coding that the IRS will actually do in order to kick the can down the road and get an assessment against you.
That's incredible.
So, I wouldn't, if I had filed a tax return or maybe out of fear, I never would have discovered that they actually have to lie, the IRS has to lie to their own computer systems to get an assessment against someone like me who's not cooperating or not, you know, just falling on my sword and swearing I owe the money. It's like, "IRS, if I owe the money, you should be able to prove it. You should be able to make the assessment yourself if you have the authority." And that's where they, they can't. And they haven't done it to me. And as I say, with with Paymon's help, finding out just how pervasive that fraud is. So, I, I, I pray and I hope that, you know, President Trump, who so many times has talked about getting rid of the income tax. Well, here he sits in the White House. He's the head of the executive branch. He absolutely would have the power to find out why the IRS is doing this 1040A scam and basically administering and enforcing the income tax beyond their authority. And it's not Joe's opinion or Paymon's opinion. It's the IRS's own conduct. And it's proven, been proven.
Yes. I, you know what? I hope and pray he does, too. I want him to turn back to America First because that's what he promised. Um, how do people? You have a website. How do people learn more about you?
Uh, website is agentfortruth.com. agentfortruth.com.
Okay, we'll make sure we get that out there. And you've written a book.
Yeah, book uh it's called Investigating the Federal Income Tax, a Report to the American People. Uh, when I wrote the report back in 1999, it was called Investigating the Federal Income Tax, a Preliminary Report. Ah. Because I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not an arrogant person. I'm a very humble person and I like, I could be wrong about this. So, I'm going to make it a preliminary report. I'll get the answer from my bosses and the IRS officials and DOJ and we'll get to the bottom of this.
Yes.
And so, 20 years later in 2019, I changed the bottom of the title to, you know, Investigating the Federal Income Tax, a Report to the American People.
And you published it into a book.
Published it, yep. That's fantastic. Thank you so much for telling your story. I, I've been fascinated by this. I'm interested and I'm going to continue looking into it. I think, I think it's up to each person on their own. Of course, I'm, I'm not going to advise everyone on what they should do, but that's what interests me about Paymon and the Freedom Law School and about your story. And you have such credibility, Joe. Your career is extremely admirable. Um, you're an honest man and and I thank you for telling the, I think this is something the American people can do if they choose to do it. And I think now is the time. I'm really grateful to be able to meet you and be able to be on the show and it's just been an awesome experience.
Thank you, Marjorie.
Thank you so much.