Transcription
You've spent your time trying to improve the world at the political level and in the political domain, but the problems you're talking about here are above that. It's cultural, it's spiritual, it's religious. I feel like those things are uncontrollable. I mean, a lot of good and bad and improvement and damage can be done at the political level. It's very clear to see, you just look at societies.
Um, but if it's the case that our problems are much deeper or from much higher, how ex- How exactly, apart from just praying, how exactly do we actually help move those things? What, what, what? How? How can we engage at that level? It to try and improve and and push things in a positive direction.
It's such an important question. Let me preface it by saying that, you know, I have a view of Australia and I suspect Britain's the same, that you have the people engaged in bomb throwing at the ideas end of the spectrum. You know, the deeply conservative right through to the deeply left wing and then the great bulk of decent everyday citizens in the middle are watching this appalling sort of missile war go over on above their heads, uh, in bewilderment and dismay asking, "Do they actually care about us?" Uh, and now, of course, you're seeing this massive, massive populist, they're called, uprisings. And thinking politicians, real leaders, would have seen this coming. They'd have started.
And I'm >> Did you see it coming?
>> Yeah. But I was out of the game.
>> When did you first see it coming?
>> The great financial crisis.
>> Huh. What, what did you think was going to happen then?
Um, the great financial crisis had its origins really in bad culture. No one at Lehman Brothers broke the law or went to jail, but what they did, they should have known was extraordinarily unwise, lacking prudence and lacking decency. And then governments took public sector a private sector debt onto their balance books. And governments don't have money, so that meant that basically they indebted their people to a huge degree. When the great financial crisis was over, there was neither the leadership to say effectively to people everywhere, "We have to clean this up. We've got to boost productivity. We've got to pay down the debt. We've got to restrain public expenditure." The electorates wouldn't wear it, so governments went for the worst of all options. And your dad referred to this the other day in a remarkable speech. Hope it's all right to say to the son, listen to your dad. And but it was a great speech. Hear, hear. I hope everyone who listens to you and me talking will now go and look that up.
Yeah. Listen >> about the problem of quantitative easing.
>> We went looking for inflation to devalue the debts. That's what inflation does.
>> Mhm.
>> And for years we didn't think the inflation was there. It was always going to be there. And look what it's done. Those who have assets are wealthier than ever.
>> Mhm.
>> Those who can't get the bottom foot their foot on the bottom ladder and this finest point and finest point and with homes, young people looking for homes are left out and marginalized and disadvantaged. And I, you know, for me, there was a real wake-up call because I'd been part of a government and was actually at the heart of the what was known as the razor gang that did the horrible work that said Australia needs to stop borrowing against its children, intergenerational theft. And why was doing as well as the left, which is again >> Yeah, well. We were a pragmatic, sensible government made up of really classic liberals and classic conservatives. I would have been seen as probably quite disinterested in social issues and more interested in pursuing liberal economics and perhaps a conservative approach to limiting the size of government. Right. Um, but you see, in the end, as I'm saying, what, what for me, this sort of the great financial crisis, I could see that we lacked leadership and we lacked the willingness as a culture to accept that we needed to tidy up the mess. We'd got ourselves into a mess, as I say, by poor behavior, perhaps legal but not morally right, that brought the banking system globally to the brink of collapse. It was oh, close. And then we didn't want to clean it up for the sake of our children. Then came COVID to only worse. Britain's debt problems now are a nightmare.
>> Yeah.
>> And yet, as our good mutual friend Konstantin Kisin rightly observes, most people still think it's a rich country.
>> Yeah. What, nothing like it was should have happened instead in 2008?
>> Uh, after the great financial crisis >> have been the response?
>> Um, uh, the, the broad response should have been to have repaired those national balance sheets, which would have meant government expenditure should have been wound in everywhere. The debts should have been paid down. Productivity should have been improved.
>> That should have been, that should have been paid down by >> Uh, well, you pay it down by a process of >> boosting wealth, growing a bigger pie, employing more people >> without overburdening them, but making sure that you've got the tax revenues.
>> You mean the whole country, the whole country rather than >> Yeah, yeah, the whole country. Yeah, yeah, the whole country. Um, in each of our jurisdictions, um, and in restraining government outlays and and wearing some pain, and it's not easy. I've been there. I've been part of a government that has said >> banks fail.
>> No to people.
>> Let the banks fail.
>> Um, well, that's the really hard one. I mean, uh, you know, so many little people were allowed to fail, but the big ones were not. And there should have been some real soul-searching. Should the American taxpayer have bought General Motors? They didn't buy Ford, did they?
>> I, I, yeah, I don't remember.
>> Yeah, I mean, they, you know, that's right. They took all of that those private sector debt failures onto public balance sheets, and they're still there.
>> Mhm.
>> Or a lot of the debt hangover is. And then COVID made it a whole lot worse, and it has really restricted the room to move to do the things that we all want to do in countries like Britain and Australia, which is to not overtax people, but at the same time provide proper welfare benefits, and by the way, defense in a very dangerous world. You've had that debate here.
>> Mhm.
>> How mind-boggling that with all of the authority of the prime ministership, you're not able to insist that your treasurer finds money to meet your commitments on defense. And in- instead, a line's like, I'll say, "Who will you take money away from so we can defend ourselves?" I mean, what sort of argument is that? We all need to be safe. No use having the butter if you sacrifice the guns and then find you've got neither.
Again, this is with all fairness to Starmer on this, he inherited a completely degraded >> Yes. >> armed forces.
>> Yeah.
>> And so, this is again another massive failure >> Yes. >> of the British right.
>> Yes.
>> Post-war right.
>> Yeah.
>> And or maybe post-Thatcher right.
>> That's right.
>> That we've just let it degrade, we take it totally for granted, and and and sort of hoping for the Americans to to swoop in.
I found um a very interesting conversation with Frank Furedi, who you'll know of um, a professor emeritus of philosophy, I think, at Kent University. Written very extensively. Uh, he was from the left, uh, but is a very clear thinker. And he made the point to me, and I, I don't think I'm misrepresenting him, because I hope I'm not, cuz I've thought this way now for some years. The old left versus right distinctions in politics are pretty worthless now. They're all commitment to, you know, the great political thought streams has essentially gone, given way to ad hockery and what have you. And the more useful debate now is those who feel and emote versus those who respond to the facts and the reality and the data. So, you feel and emote that we're a wealthy country and we can afford all of these benefits and we can go on spending without worrying about how much we're taking from taxpayers and so forth. It'll all work out in the end. That feels good. Versus the hard-nosed realities. You're not. That's not the position Britain's in.
I'd like to challenge that. Because just as the line between good and evil goes through the center of every human heart, I actually think we're all susceptible for feeling and emoting and being right brain, left brain. And it just sort of depends on the issue. So, for example, in Britain now, people are feeling and emoting about the culture of Britain. I, I went to the Tommy Robinson march, talking to ordinary folks, good people, who who were attending, and they they felt like they're losing their culture. It was a feeling. It was it, and a lot of this is in the metaphysical realm. And I think that um, that actually we should be honest that we do feel. And and and that What is it that John Jonathan Haidt that the the elephant leads the the elephant rider rather than the other way around. That we're all susceptible to think that unless you're an autist or something like that, yeah. So, maybe I should get rid >> I accept your premise. I accept your No, I do. I do. Uh, and it means I haven't explained my position properly, which is that the two need to be in balance. You know, in the end um, feelings will often lead you uh, to take action, but then the action needs to be on the basis of reality. What are the facts? Uh, and you see, I think in many ways my response to you would be to say if those people feel that way, the facts tell you why they feel that way. Australians feel they can't get ahead financially. The facts tell you that their real wages are slipping. And that the country on a per head basis is and has been for some time in recession. The numbers look better than they are because of high migration. So, yeah, there's a feeling element, and then when you look at what's driving the feeling, you find the facts. So, in a way, the feeling should lead you to say, "Here are the facts, and we've got to address the realities." I think that's what I'm saying.
Thanks for watching this clip from the Winston Marshall show. You can click here to watch the full episode, and for more clips like this one, don't forget to subscribe. And as always, be well.