Transcription
There is a huge taboo in France, and that is money. To become rich, the only almost somewhat sure way, in quotes, is to create a company. People often say the rich get richer, well, that's normal. When you make 10%, these are things they will never teach you in school. Even today, you should, you see. I see crazy situations. I see people who have €300,000 in their account. Can you buy an Hermes belt when you earn €2,000 a month? And you see crazy things, you see people getting scammed, etc. The state pension, frankly, those who think they will get it need to wake up. In fact, you are dreaming.
Hello, hello. How are you? How are you? And you? Happy to have you with us. We talk a lot, but we never know, we've never made a video together. That's true, so I'm very happy for the audience. For those who don't know you, you created a company called Finary, on which there are over 200,000 users who manage their investments on the platform. So you'll have lots of statistics on how people manage their money. You are now an investment specialist because you released a book that was a bestseller on Amazon, so congratulations, frankly. Also available in all bookstores. "Best seller" simply, on how to invest, on how to invest. It's a guide to becoming financially independent, really specifically, because I think that's the generational challenge. Okay, so Finary is a great company. I use it anyway. And you have, consequently, a lot of very interesting figures. I think you look at the data, you even make videos about examples of people, how they invested, how they invested well. And we're talking today with Bitcoin at over $100,000, a historic day, a historic day. And so we're going to talk a bit about that, about whether it really allows you to become rich or not. But to start, there's a huge taboo in France, it's money. And to become rich, the only almost somewhat sure way, in quotes, not sure, but in any case, that leaves less room for chance, is to create a company, to have capital, and this capital will one day be large, and that's what allowed people to be rich, or to be a freelancer, perhaps, or an employee, and to invest their money well. So we're going to discuss that. Do you have in your Finary database today, you have a bit of everything, so you have visibility on different types of profiles? We have a very wide panel, we have 450,000 users, so it's vast. On average, our user is 36 years old, with €300,000 in assets, so it's rather what we call a CSP+. However, we also have people who are starting out at 18, which is actually the best age to start investing. And then we also have people in their 70s who often have assets that amount to millions or tens of millions. So frankly, we have a range, we have a very wide range. We have a segment of France, with one nuance, which is that it's still France that has decided to invest. No one on Finary still thinks that investing is something for the rich. It's a casino. Precisely because you say there are 18-year-olds, it's the best age. Can everyone invest? Yes, yes, everyone can invest, in fact, from, well, you know, it's accounting. You know, you're a specialist. It's how much money comes in, how much money goes out. Yes, if more money comes in than goes out, then you have a surplus, and you can put that surplus to work. And today, you can invest from €10, you see. And I think there's a concept that you know and that you love, it's compound interest. The best time to invest was yesterday. The younger you are, the more you benefit from this phenomenon. You reinvest the interest into the capital, and so the following year, your capital has grown, you generate interest on this grown capital, so it's a snowball effect. And people often say the rich get richer, well, that's normal. When you make 10% on 100 million, you've just made 100 million euros. When you make 10% on €1,000, well, okay, you've made €100, that's great, but it's a very small amount, you see. So it's really just that, in fact. The rich get richer because they earn compound interest on enormous capital. So the goal is just to get the machine started as quickly as possible and to get into the habit of investing, even if it's a small amount. In fact, it's not very important. It's like jogging, you see. If you want to jog, you have to run 1 km, then 2, then 3. And yes, the marathon will come one day, but start by getting into that habit. So the habit of investing, you have to get it from a young age. And I would have loved, you see, today I'm passing this on, I would have loved to do it at 18. Why didn't we do it at 18? Who explained it to us, you see? We both went to business school. I studied engineering, but they explain it even less, even less, yes, that's true. Yes, but you see, who explained it to you? But even us, who went to business school, normally they teach you finance, personal finance, which is completely different, you see. But it's all related. They teach you macroeconomics, they teach you microeconomics, monetary theory, Milton Friedman, all that, or very complex, very high-level stuff. And then they explain how to price options, how to do M&A. But for yourself, for yourself, on the other hand, go screw yourself, you see. It's your problem, it's your problem. Whereas it's stupid. And literally, all these people will graduate from business school, regardless, they will be very well paid, they will later probably be directors, even CEOs, or civil servants, exactly, or civil servants. So they will be people who will have high incomes. And you realize that all these people, in fact, they are told, go ahead, my friends, figure it out, manage on your own, really, but with your means. And I think, unfortunately, the people who take the courses themselves don't know how to do it. So it must come from somewhere. Your parents could have done it, or our parents could have done it. But the problem is that it's a generation where people trusted bankers, so they don't have that background either. So we have the advantage of having the internet, in fact. And that's where it comes from. Exactly. So these are things they will never teach you in school. Even today, they should. We have a minute for that, a minute for that. Besides, if the minister, well, there's no more minister, there's no more government, there's nothing anymore. But you see, if there were, we're exposed, we're exposed. But I was talking about it with the ministry, I was talking about it with the ministry, well, with Bercy, literally last week. There are initiatives that have been put in place by the Bank of France, but no one has seen them, unfortunately. But it should be taught in middle school, in high school, 3 hours or 6 hours of class, it should be mandatory. Exactly. What I find fascinating is that the French are those who save a lot, they are people who save a lot, and at the same time, they don't invest. European champions of savings, so it's a shame because it means they have savings, they have that surplus you were talking about. Yes, the reflex is there, but they don't, but they don't invest it because we have a culture of, we have a culture of risk aversion that is very strong, so we're afraid to take risks. And lack of education too, as you said, because that's really the consequence of the lack of education, it's the fear of risk. Yes. And we say, wait, there's the Livret A. The Livret A is 3% today, it's safe. Now, it's not safe because you have a 100% probability of losing money because inflation is higher. The Livret A is even pegged to 50% of inflation, meaning that by design, by conception, this booklet can only make you lose money, lose purchasing power, because €100 today is not worth €100. And that's what's difficult to understand. You say, but wait, when I look at my bank account in a year, I still have €100. But in fact, with €100, you buy less. And I think inflation is a fairly abstract macroeconomic concept. Five years ago, but now it's starting to be, yes, everyone has felt it. The price of energy, that's inflation. That's when it exploded, that's inflation. Perhaps to explain what inflation is, very concretely, if you have €100 that you put aside in 2012, for example, in your current account which yields nothing, well, in a current account, exactly. So you haven't touched it. This €100 today allows you to buy the equivalent of €70. So in fact, you've lost a third of that value. And if you leave it longer, maybe it loses half. So it's terrible. That is to say, you can only buy €70 with these €100, in fact, because prices have increased. Prices have increased, and they keep increasing, they keep increasing. The average inflation in France is 3% per year. Except last year, we had 6%. This year, we have a bit less, we have between 3 and 4%. So it's not like it's an isolated phenomenon, it's a phenomenon that exists. We've had years with 0% inflation, but those were isolated phenomena. It's not, it's not returns. We've returned to the norm. And so it's inevitable. If you leave money in your current account, there's no problem, but it's like sending a love letter to your banker, because he will lend it, he will make credit with it, and he will earn money, except that he will give you exactly zero. So if you love your banker, leave the money in your current account. Otherwise, well, do something. You have to put it to work. And so what you're saying is very counterintuitive. People can't imagine that. Because imagine someone has €20,000 set aside. They've put a lot of money aside. For them, the default solution is to leave €20,000 in the account by default. And for them, the innovation, the weird thing, is to invest it. And so, in fact, they feel that, and therefore, to risk losing it, to risk losing it. And so when they invest it, for them, they are taking a huge risk. By keeping it, they are not taking a risk. But and so they feel that by doing nothing, it's as if it were neutral and as if it would be preserved. And finally, there is no position. You preserve 100%. There is no position where you preserve everything safely, because either you don't invest it at all, and safely, you will lose this money little by little, 100% probability. Or you invest it, and you take risks. But in the end, there is no other solution than to be a bit in between, to keep a bit of cash and to invest part of it. So it's strange when you haven't had an education, because you think that by keeping it, if there's no war, no problem, etc., you'll get back exactly what you put in, which is never the case. But it's strange to think that. Yes, it's quite counterintuitive. But once you understand it, you change your perspective. I need to put it to work. Yes. And so, what you've described, in fact, is the most important notion in finance, which is that there is no return without risk. It's even called the risk-return pair. It's a pair that goes very well together. So the more risk you take, the more return you can expect. However, the more you can also lose, it's logical. Yes. But so the worst investment is the Livret A, because you are 100% sure to lose purchasing power. The Livret A has only one utility, we can come back to it, it's to place what we call your safety net. Yes, in short, your cushion. It's your, you see, it's so you don't wake up at night saying, how am I going to pay my bills? How do I manage if tomorrow I have an accident, I go to the hospital, you see, I lose my job? These are emergency needs where you need to have liquidity, you need to have immediate liquidity available. And so it's very simple, no withdrawal delay, exactly. You say, how will I define my safety net? And everyone should have one. I have one. Everyone should have one. It's very important, especially for a freelancer, because in fact, a freelancer has uncertainties. Will the contract come in? I lose a major client. So you have, you have even more need. If you are a civil servant, you also need a safety net, but it doesn't need to be as thick. But so, generally, what we say is between three and six months of expenses. So it's simple. You look at what you spent over, let's say, the last three months, your rent, you see, groceries, going out with friends, etc. And you average the last three months. You say, okay, that's my security. That's my security. If I'm really ready, if I'm not very afraid of life and the future in general, I put 3 months. If I'm more the chronically anxious type, I put 6. Yes. But frankly, beyond that, or if I've just launched my business, okay, I'll put 9. But beyond that, it's too much, because this money, you lose too much. It has a cost, it has an opportunity cost. So in fact, you lose too much purchasing power here. So it's better to put it to work. So 6 months maximum, unless you're launching your business, then 9. But you see, I see crazy situations on Finary. I see people who have €300,000 in their current account. People who are, it's incredible. I have people who are financial directors of large groups, people who are traders, people who do private equity, people who are business leaders. These are professions that are in finance, are in finance. They are people who manage money for companies, for others, or for others. However, they have €200,000, and when you ask them, they say, I don't know what to do with it, I'm stuck, because there are too many options, I'm afraid, etc. And so that's why, you see, they didn't create this habit at 18. And so when you wake up at 45 and you have to invest 200, it's a bit late. It's late. And it's, I understand that it's anxiety-inducing. It's difficult to say, here, I'm going to put €200,000 into this. And so then you start to fall into irrational behaviors. Yes. And you see crazy things, you see people getting scammed, etc. And unfortunately, that's what the media likes to report, but that's not investment. In fact, investment is not a casino at all. It's not traders doing whatever they want, you see. It's very rational things. You need to have, we said it earlier, you need to have a safety net, which is just the cash that I keep, that I don't invest. It's okay if it's subject to inflation, but in case of great necessity, I use it. And then everything else, I have to invest it. But concretely, where do I put my money? What do I do? Basically, the safety net, as you said, needs to be available. So the most important thing is really that you put it in a product that still yields a little, but is safe. Yes. And so it depends if you keep it in cash, you keep it personally or in your company. If you keep it personally, frankly, don't ask questions, Livret A, okay, no debate, you see. Everyone has a Livret A. If you even have a small income, there's a nice little hack, it's the Livret d'Épargne Populaire (LEP). The LEP is at 4%, it was at 5% not long ago. Basically, it's the booklet that has the mandate to perform the equivalent of inflation. So it cancels out inflation, so it's great. You need to earn less than €22,419, I believe, if you're single. But generally, the good news is that banks forget to close it when you exceed the threshold. So as long as you don't tell them, it's their problem. Not bad. So that's if it's personal. And professionally, you can place your cash in a term deposit. Honestly, it's not very interesting. I prefer to invest it in online banks that pay interest on cash. And today, you have banks like Wise or Revolut, I have no partnership with them. They give you a rate called the ESTER, which is the shortest rate. So basically, it's a one-day rate. It's really the safest rate, it's the rate you have when you want it. And today, here, we are at 3.16%, 3.16%. So it's even better than the Livret A. It's just that it's taxed again, but it's still very interesting, very liquid. So you don't even have to think about it. And then, so you don't leave it in the current account, you don't leave it in the current account, you put it on this. There are B2B banks, professional banks, that don't offer it, but that's okay. Look for the bank that offers it, and you type, you see, ESTER or STR bank, and there you will find rates from banks that offer it. And frankly, it's very simple. You deposit, bam, and then you earn interest every day. So it's quite nice to see. Yes, I confirm. And so if you have excellent cash flow, by the way, that works too, it's not just your safety net, it's also your company's excellent cash flow. You put it there. Yes. And so, in fact, in the things that we don't learn in school, at least not intuitively, is this thing of compound interest. And I think that's the reason why you said the best time to start is at 18. We've all passed that because we didn't have that education. For those listening who are still 18-25, it's a very, very, very good time to start. But how do you, how do you explain compound interest, which is such a non-intuitive notion, even for a math whiz, an engineer? He can understand it on paper, but he can't live it and understand it in his daily life, you see, when he reasons in terms of money and all that. How do you explain it in a very simple way? It's really the snowball effect. You have to think that we're going to launch a very small snowball at the top of a hill, you see. And in fact, this snowball will gain speed, it will grow, you see. We've already seen it. It will accumulate snow. And so naturally, just with the inertia that it will accumulate, it will become extremely large, extremely powerful. And so it's exactly the same. It needs time. It needs time. And that's good, when you're 18, you have time. On the other hand, you don't have money. When you're 40, you have money, but you don't have much time left. And especially, you have a retirement that's not very far away, so you can't take the same risks. The best time to take risks is when you're 18 and honestly, what do you have? You don't have much anyway. You have no commitments, you have no children, you see. You have no loans. So you can do whatever you want. So that's it. And so it's the best time to go and launch your snowball, even if it's tiny. Many people think that investing is for the rich, but that's false, that's false. Because in fact, what the rich do is they invest to preserve their capital. For them, it's defensive. They want to lose as little as possible. They want to maintain their standard of living. Someone who has 50 million euros, and we have them, you see, at Finary, will not tell you, I want to find the next Bitcoin. No, they don't care. They want their children to also have the equivalent of 50 million euros in purchasing power in the future. Exactly. It won't be 50, it will be 70 million. Exactly. 70 million in reality will be the same as 50. It will be the same. And he will say, but great, because with 50 million, we live well. Yes. The guy who has no assets, he needs to go for performance, you see. So he will take some risks, so he will not make the same investments. And that's why, and on the other hand, he has total flexibility, you see, and he has time. And so, really, what you need to remember is the snowball. You have to create it as early as possible, and then it will grow. Even with small sums, even with small sums, especially with small sums, because again, we create the habit. What we say to explain it, we say, if you want to be a millionaire, you invest €4,000 at 20, and just don't touch it, don't touch it. You invest it in an index that has 10%, 11%, 12% if you have a good index. And at 68, it becomes 1 million. And people say, but how is it possible that €4,000 becomes 1 million? Because, but that's over a very long period. You haven't even reinvested. You haven't even reinvested. You put €4,000. Well, very few people have €4,000 at once. But if your parents give you €4,000 for a good reason, not to consume it. 42 years later, so you're 68, that's retirement age today. Well, you have a million. Well, it's not worth a million today because of inflation, but it's still nothing compared to €4,000. And then, if you calculate by also putting €100 per month or €80 per month, it becomes a much larger sum. And so people, I think that unlocks something in people's minds, saying, I missed out on something big. If €4,000 can really become a million, and I'm doing nothing, I've been doing nothing for a long time. Maybe I should get started. Exactly. And you see, that's what's a bit unfortunate, because often in public debate, we stigmatize investment, we say it's something for millionaires, etc., or a casino. Whereas you saw, the example you just gave is very good, and that's not by making a placement, you know, a good tip from a strange guy on the corner. That's by investing in the main index, in the largest stock market index in the world, namely the S&P 500, which is the American stock market. So it's super accessible, and in reality, it has never been easier to invest today. Yes. Today, there are no barriers. You go on the App Store, download an app, you go on a website, you validate your identity, deposit money, 10 minutes later, you invest, and you forget about it, and you forget about it. And before, you had to go to the bank, fill out papers, etc. It was very long, it was very expensive too, there were huge fees. Today, it's much cheaper. So it's a bit of a golden age for investment. There are still many people waking up, you see. Many people were sleeping. Today, people are very awake. I think they are awake because they have realized, especially with the discussions that are currently happening around the budget, that the French state, the French state is bankrupt. In fact, you have to realize, the French state, you see, we were talking about the deficit. The French state doesn't know how to manage its budget. There is a systematic deficit. This year, we are at 6% deficit. It spends more, spends more, exactly. It earns 100, it spends 106. That doesn't work too well. So what do we do? Well, it's a state, so the state borrows, there's no problem. But we all have debt. We all have debt. I believe that every French person has a debt equivalent to €40,000, €25,000, sorry, on their shoulders. All of them, €25,000 on their shoulders. And that's because, well, exactly. Bam, €25,000. That's because, well, we spend a lot instead of encouraging investment. So in fact, you have to take your destiny into your own hands. You have to say, the state pension, frankly, I don't think I'll ever get it. It's almost certain. Those who think they will get it, well, you need to wake up. In fact, you are really dreaming, you are in a waking dream. It won't happen anymore. The French state will gradually raise the retirement age and reduce the amount. So at some point, you'll have to take things into your own hands. And what I observe is that, well, our generation, and especially the younger ones, have said stop, and they've decided to take things. Yes. And there's a strategy to put in place. We'll detail it. It's very simple, you see. Okay, there's a guy who said about taxes, today, taxes are a tax to have, well, the pensions of the boomers that are being paid today to the boomers. It's a tax to do business in France. So in fact, we do business in France, and to have that right, we pay the pensions of those who did whatever they wanted, who did whatever they wanted. They lived the best possible period. And we, to have the right to work, have to pay them. We have to pay them because we won't have that pension. So we have to pay them today, but we will have leftovers one day. That's it. They took planes to go to Marne-la-Vallée, you see, it's ridiculous. And then they tell us today, however, children, you take a plane once in your life, and you make all the sacrifices you need to make. Indeed, you have a huge burden. You pay us, you pay us, and you won't really have a pension one day. Investing, on top of that. Ah yes, because that's the system, it's a Ponzi, in fact, you see. We often talk about, you see, Madoff, the Ponzi that collapsed. Everything collapses, ultimately. But wait, if you think about the French system, it's you who gives money. The last one to join gives money to the one who, who joined before. Well, in fact, my friends, that's called a Ponzi. And so it's a Ponzi. I give money, this money is directly given to someone who is enjoying their retirement. So in fact, somewhere, you see, we are the best sponsor of cruises and all these beautiful companies or Club Med, because in fact, we water them. It's really our money that goes into this, you see, the Ponant cruises, all these things. Frankly, it's a bit of a shame. And so, as a freelancer, you have the advantage of being able to really decide how much you pay yourself. So you don't have to participate in, you know, less, ultimately. When you're a freelancer, an employee, the employee is in the trap, you see, they're stuck. They're stuck. The employee, you should know, let me explain why the employee, in fact, cannot modulate their income. Well, when you're an employee, what do you want? To earn as much as possible, obviously, which is logical, because you probably work very hard and you create value for your company. But consequently, you will be subject to income tax. And income tax, well, it's a never-ending beating. Already, the money you will earn is a fraction of what your employer paid. You hire someone, you will pay employer contributions on it. The employee will pay employee contributions on it. Then you will pay income tax. Then you will pay another tax that is never mentioned, it's like VAT. That is to say, when you pay, 20% goes away each time. And then you will buy a property one day, we will say, attention, there are notary fees. Oh, notary fees? Notary fees are 8.5% tax. So in fact, it's a scam, this thing, because they tell you, everyone thinks that notaries are rich because of this. Well, they are rich for other reasons, but it's mainly the state that gets rich from it. They increase, they just increased, they will increase, they might not increase it with the budget, but they wanted to increase notary fees by 11%. So in fact, you see, there are taxes everywhere. You make a donation, same thing. If you don't take care of planning your succession, you get wiped out by the state. So in fact, there are taxes at every stage of your life. And when you are an employee, you pay 100%. When you are an employee, you pay everything, because you pay, in particular, the main source of income for the state, which is income tax. It's really the number one income. But for the same income, the freelancer can choose how much will be subject to all these taxes, because they pay their salary and how much they keep in their company. So the trick is there. How much they keep in their company to invest through their company, not while the employee has no such choice. 100% is heavily taxed, and they are only left with the net net net final, on which they can invest a little personally. Yes. And the net net net, it's a fraction, you see. And every year, taxes increase. Why? Well, because you have to pay pensions, you have to pay a lot of things, in fact. So you see, here we are, before we created the pension system, it's a pretty clever system. There were four people working for each retiree. Today, we are at 1.6 active workers for each retiree. We are heading towards one for one. And so, in fact, you see, when you see a debate where they say, no, the retirement age, we're not going to raise it, but wait, but but you are, what? The system is on the verge of implosion. Look at the demographic pyramid, you see. There are many more elderly people than young people. Yes. So we are at the limit of the system. And when you are an employee, you can never control how much salary you pay yourself, and so you are really the one who is most taxed. The freelancer, on the other hand, can say, I pay myself a salary, I pay myself dividends, I especially keep the cash in my company. And it's easy to target individuals and increase taxes, and that's what the state loves to do, increase corporate tax, IS. Very difficult, because then you break all the competitiveness that remains, there's not much left. And besides, they lowered it. The IS has indeed been lowered. You are more protected in future reforms than when you are an employee, on whom they will hit first. That, and that, you see, we often talk about tax loopholes. Everyone is obsessed with tax loopholes, but that's the real tax loophole. In fact, you don't, you see, they often say, in every niche, there's a dog, but you shouldn't go for tax loopholes. It's often a...
Very bad placement, those who sell tax niches, it's them who make money. The best tax niche is to invest via savings, and ultimately, when you are a freelancer, for the same work, it's a much faster way to build your wealth than when you are an employee. In a world where building your wealth is no longer really an option because you won't have the kind of retirement we see today, it's another path. So a guy who is a freelancer, for the same job, can perhaps set aside €1000, while for the same job, as an employee, he can only set aside €500.
In short, the equivalent salary between a permanent contract and someone who is a self-employed worker is about 30% more for the self-employed worker. More investment power that you can put in. That's it, but that's at equivalent cost, meaning the same job, same money, the same job, your client costs the same, or your employer, and you just have 30% more. And even that, you can optimize it by keeping a maximum in your cash flow. So, in fact, your holding company or your company, you really have to see it as your piggy bank, and as long as it stays there, you'll be able to make money work. And 30% over time, over years and years, with the snowball effect, it's enormous. It's every year, you see, it's every year. Yes, it's enormous.
And, and when you are a freelancer, because we say that building wealth is much simpler when you are a freelancer, much faster in any case for the same job, and therefore having financial independence is more accessible to freelancers. Can I invest everything through my company? When I leave the money in the company, can I invest everything that an individual who is an employee can do? You can do exactly the same thing. In fact, it's just that sometimes the platforms will be called differently, but you have at your disposal all the instruments: indices, stocks, you can do crypto, you can do real estate. Perhaps you will have to create another company to have a specific structure, etc., which will be a real estate investment company. But in short, you have access to even more instruments, more instruments, and much more flexibility. And you see, often what I see is people who say, "Yes, but I won't be able to borrow to do real estate." Well, yes, in fact, because your company, if it's profitable, which is often the case for freelancers who do well, then you can borrow, and banks love to finance this kind of file.
So, because some people say, "I don't get debt as a freelancer as easily as an employee." That's true, that's true. The employee, he gives the permanent contract, the banker sees the permanent contract, he faints, you see, he's happy for him, it's the sesame. Whereas in fact, it makes no sense. You can very well be laid off, and so yes, you will have unemployment benefits, but someone who is a freelancer earning €10,000, €15,000, €20,000, €30,000 a month, well, if I were a banker, I'd love to finance them because I know they're doing very well and they'll do even better tomorrow. Yes, it's true that in our system, we favor permanent contracts over entrepreneurship, but the entrepreneur can absolutely borrow. It's true that what is often asked for is still to have several balance sheets and to make a profit, you see. But if you have that, then you can go for it, it's really open bar, and you just have to find the right bank. And then we can go into detail about how we can do it, but it's totally feasible, it's feasible. So it's not impossible for a freelancer, you just need to know how to do it.
Okay, and when we were talking about indices earlier, you said that if someone invests in an index, it's very simple because today it's a click of a button, and indices are relatively much more secure than choosing stocks, etc. So, in fact, for compound interest, I had another thing that allows me to explain the thing very violently: would you prefer to have €1 million right now or a 1-cent coin that doubles every day? And in fact, people say €1 million because I'm safe. And in fact, when you do the calculation, the 1 cent that doubles very, very quickly, after 30 days, you have to do the calculation, it reaches €100 million and then it far exceeds it because it's an exponential curve. And after a few days, you're maybe at €800, then it becomes, and in fact, it's very, very fast, even before 30 days, I think from memory, we can do the calculation, you reach astronomical amounts. Normal, and that's compound interest, it's the exponential function. And that's why starting very early works well. But in any case, even when you start, I think at 45, you have plenty of time to benefit from compound interest.
And so that brings me to the question of, okay, once I've put cash aside for security, that's for people who already have some money. So they have to break it down into security cash, then investment. On what should I invest this money? There are many strategies. Some people put everything on Bitcoin or even shitcoins sometimes. But we're talking about guys who have €50,000, for example, they'll put €20,000 aside, and then what do they do with the €30,000? I like the image of the pyramid, you see. In short, the wealth pyramid is the foundation, my security, that's covered. Then you go up a level, and there are really the two engines of your wealth: the stock market and real estate. Yes, okay. And so, if we start with the stock market, very concretely, what will you do? There are two ways to invest in the stock market. Either you buy stocks, for example, Tesla, Nvidia, LVMH, you choose them yourself, you choose them yourself because you think it's a great company. Or, you see your clients, Spotify, you say, "Well, therefore, I think this company will be worth more tomorrow, I'll buy the stock." That's the first option. The second option is to say, "I don't know which company will be in vogue tomorrow or will be worth more tomorrow." Therefore, I will buy the market in general. And so there, you can buy what are called ETFs, which will simply replicate a stock market index. So in France, we have a stock market index called the CAC 40, which are the 40 largest companies listed on the stock market. So there's LVMH in it, there's Hermès, you see, there's Air Liquide. And in the United States, they have an equivalent called the S&P 500. And so there are the 500 largest companies in which you have Nvidia, Tesla, you see, all the big companies. And so the ETF, the ETF is really extremely stupid. Its only job is to perform the same as the index. And so, you see, in 2024, the S&P 500, to talk numbers, is up 27%. Yes, it's an incredible year. That's an incredible year. So there you'll say, "Yes, but you're lucky and so on." Well, last year it was up 26%. Over the last 100 years, the S&P 500 has been 10% per year. But the nuance in this is that there are years it's up 50%, there are years it's down 50%. And that's why the stock market is scary, because next year we can lose 50%. But in the long term, as long as you stay at the table, you win, because statistically, it has never happened that you don't win in the long term. It has to stay long enough. It has to stay long enough. And so there's a formula that's quite well-known in English: "Time in the market beats timing the market." That means staying in the market is more profitable than trying to enter and exit, trying to trade. And so all the people who think that being a trader is great, well, yes, it's profitable if you're a pro. And so we are not pros, we have a job on the side. And so we do ETFs, we buy the index. 10% per year is a dream, in fact, because 10% per year for a very long time, well, you see, it's what you were doing earlier, it can make millions, and it will make millions, just mathematically, if you don't get out. And what's great about this is that this is not something that is only accessible to the super-rich. This is accessible to everyone through a securities account, life insurance, a retirement savings plan, a capital investment contract. And each contract has its advantages and disadvantages, but in any case, it is accessible to everyone for very low fees. So the ETF is really the key.
And the other key is that you talked about compound interest, but there's another phenomenon that's a bit less, still a bit less understandable, it's compound fees. When you buy a fund, you pay fees, you see. So let's say you don't want to buy, you go to your banker, you say, "I saw the S&P 500, I'll buy a fund." He'll say, "But we don't have ETFs anyway, because he doesn't earn, he doesn't take a commission on them." On the other hand, we have other funds called active funds, which are managed by a real manager who will try to beat the S&P. And so there, you'll look at the fees, you'll see that it's 2% per year. You'll say, "But that's okay, 2% fees, it's not much." In reality, it's true that it's not much, you see. But except that after 30 years, 2% fees per year means a 43% loss of earnings. It's enormous. It's enormous. It's enormous. You see, so that's a sum that you'll give to your banker and to everyone in your circle, whereas you can buy it yourself through an ETF. And there, you'll pay not 2%, but you'll pay 0.20%, so you'll pay 10 times less. And the worst in this list, this is the worst of the worst, is that active funds don't manage to beat the market. It's not me who says it, there's a study called the S&P SPIVA study which shows that 80-90% of active funds, professional pros, professional managers, perform worse than the market. The ETF, let's remember, is stupid, it performs like the market every year. So you pay 10 times less for an ETF to be sure to perform like the market. Conversely, you pay 2% for a 90% chance of doing worse. So it's really a scam. So you absolutely shouldn't do that. The ETF, frankly, is very simple, and it's so simple that it's destabilizing. So I often see clients who tell me, "But I'm not doing anything, I'm not doing anything, I shouldn't have a lot." Well, no, because in fact, you buy the S&P 500, you have 500 companies that are certainly American, but Nvidia, Facebook, Meta, which do business all over the world. So you are hyper-diversified, it's great. In fact, it seems too stupid, it seems too stupid. But there was a meme on Twitter that showed, like, the best investment book, the best investment book, and they put, page 1, buy, buy S&P 500, page 2, buy S&P 500, and all the pages are just that. And it's the best book because you can't really do much, much better, unless you have specific information or you're in unlisted companies and you're really buying into companies. And that's very difficult and inaccessible for the majority of people. And so, in fact, it seems too, too stupid, but ultimately, the best solutions are the simplest. Exactly. You know, there's a rule, there's Warren Buffett, who is a great investor, a legendary investor, who says, "Rule number 1: don't lose money. Rule number 2: remember rule number 1." And you see, that summarizes his philosophy well. It's simple. And by the way, Warren Buffett, who is a professional investor, who selects stocks, yes, he said that the day he dies, his fortune will automatically go into ETFs. So you want to say, but if the guy who beats the market for 50 years without interruption does that, why doesn't everyone do it? And by the way, we see it today, ETFs are exploding, and they are by far the most profitable and practical instrument for a user, for an investor. The only thing to remember is that if the market goes down, the ETF goes down. But again, it's not a problem, we're here for the long term. 10% per year.
Imagine that, yes, so that you always have a sum ready to use in case of need, that you don't depend on, "Oh no, the market is low, I have to sell now because I need to buy something, I don't know what, and I'll lose." As long as you don't need that money, that's why people need to separate in their minds the money for your functioning as a person and family, and the money that should remain and from which you only withdraw when you want to, and when the timing is good, and so on. And you don't suffer market downturns. Once you've separated that, the danger is much lower, because the danger is just a year X where things go very badly, but the next year it will recover, as you said. So it will recover, and if not the next year, it will be the following one. And you see, there's something quite interesting, there's a phenomenon called sales, and when prices drop, people rush into stores. We've all seen the scenes, you see, in the United States where they fight to buy things, or Black Friday, which has become, which has been imported from the United States but has exploded in popularity. Prices drop, people buy. In the stock market, prices drop, people sell. But why? What has changed? Nothing has changed. It's just that the market has decided that what was worth 100 yesterday is worth 80 today. But fundamentally, we know it will return to 100 one day and exceed it. So, in fact, it's a great time to buy. So the best investors are those who say, "It's going down, it's great, so I'm buying." And so there is something difficult here, it's how you will manage to, on the day, it's -50%, to press the button to put more in, or even worse, you bought at the peak, at the summit, today, let's say it's the peak, and tomorrow it drops 50%. How do you do it? You have no more money to reinvest. There, you are really blocked. And so there's something called programmed investing or DCA in English. And that's really great, because instead of saying, "I'm going to try to invest at the best time," you're going to invest all the time. So you're going to buy day after day, week after week, month after month. You spread it out. So, for example, you have €10,000 to invest, or generally you have €0 to invest, and it's just that each month, at the end of the month, you have, I don't know, €200 left. And so you're going to invest these €200. And so each month, you'll make your investment, and you'll program it. You can't spend money you don't see. So you do an automatic transfer to your broker and an automatic order if you can do it. And you see, I did a demonstration by absurdity on Finary. I invested, we launched a crypto product last year, and I invested €100 every week, €50 on... Wow. In a year, a year and a half, a little more, I doubled my money by buying all the time. That is to say, when I bought, I bought, I bought today at €100,000, but it doesn't matter, in fact, because I also bought when it was at its lowest, and maybe it will go up even more. So that's why, since we don't know at all in which direction it's going, it's better to buy monthly so that we don't hit the wrong moment. We might not hit the best moment, but in any case, we are sure not to hit the worst moment. Crises are long, you see. So when there's a crisis, you'll have time to buy well, to really lower your average purchase price, and therefore, naturally, you'll increase your performance. So it's really in these moments that it's interesting to buy, in reality, it's when there are sales. And since it's difficult to act, it's a cognitive bias, you see, it's very, we're blocked because everyone tells us it's a crisis, it's the end of the world. And during COVID, look, we thought... we put in... whereas it was the sales of the century. And by the way, when you look at what Warren Buffett did, what did he do? He put in incredible amounts, he had a huge backlog, because he said it had been years since he had waited for a moment like this. He wasn't waiting for COVID, but he was waiting for a big drop. So you automate your investment, you automate it, and then you go do something else. And DCA is really, it's quite magical, it's autopilot, you're really on autopilot, and you can concentrate on something else, your business, your income. Exactly.
Okay, and who says, so now we've covered that being a freelancer gives you much more means to invest, and therefore you reach your independence faster. We've covered the strategy you call the pyramid. Now, let's talk about personal expenses, because if I have to set aside, I'll take it from my salary. And today, when you're young, 18, 25, even 30, etc., you start with perhaps not very high salaries, and you wonder, you say, "It's absolutely not the time to invest because I don't have enough money, and I'll wait until I have a lot of money." In fact, there's this rule that, again, they'll never teach you in school, but it's a very well-known rule that says it's the 50/30/20 rule, where they tell you, whatever your salary, you put 50% on the necessary things for you, your rent, your food, etc., 30% on leisure, going out, cinema, travel, and that allows you to have the discipline not to spend too much on leisure and to spend according to your means. And then 20% on investment. And whoever does this is guaranteed to start building their wealth quite early, even if they only earn €2000 net or less, €1800, etc. And then they will start building very early. But because of the snowball effect you talked about, what you put in with your small salary when you were 23, 25 years old will be worth more than what you will put in at 40. It will be worth much more, even though you put in €1000 of investment at 40 instead of €200, for example, or €400. So, in fact, ultimately, regardless of the starting salary, with this 50/30/20 rule, you guarantee to start investing. But the question is, how do we know how much? Because I've always thought, no one tells us what we're allowed to buy or not when we earn a certain salary. Can I buy an Hermès belt when I earn €2000 a month? Yes, you can buy it, I'm telling you, you can do it. But should you? Should you do it? In fact, I think you should still enjoy life. And you see, there's a whole movement called FIRE, and their philosophy is to save as much as possible. So they don't do 50/20, they do, in fact, it's the opposite, they do 20/30/50. So they save 50% of their... That's extreme. What does that mean concretely? You can't live in Paris, you eat pasta, you live in a tiny room. Yes, well, you live in a tiny room in Joinville, you see, and you commute 1.5 hours every day. That has no interest. It has no... The only interest is that you'll be able to retire faster. But frankly, you'll live very poorly at first. In fact, you'll live very poorly for the whole period before, and then after, when you're retired, you'll count the cents. So I'm not sure that's a good idea. So the idea is to start indeed at 20%. Let's recall, the average for French people is 17%, so we're really very good at that. French people on average are really excellent savers. They just lack the investment step. Everything goes into checking accounts and so on. Now, in fact, it's just an adjustment variable. And that's what's great is that, regardless of your salary, it's your savings rate that counts. And so what we see on Finary is that in reality, informed people will rather go for a 25% savings rate. And that's when it really starts to be interesting, even on salaries, even on salaries. Yes, because in fact, they get used to living with a little less. And I like a philosophy, it's to have a one-year delay in your current standard of living. That is to say, your standard of living is one year behind your salary. That is, you get a raise, great, congratulations, you move up a level. You don't change your standard of living, you keep your current standard of living, you create a one-year gap. Exactly. And one year later, you adjust it a little upwards, but you take your time. And maybe one year later, you'll have had another raise. So you hold back from buying the iPhone of this version, you go for the next version, you go on Back Market, you buy... Not the Hermès belt yet. No, you don't buy it. In fact, it's not true, you buy Hermès shares, you see, shares. And that, well, there are many comparisons when you look on Twitter, people who say, "Instead of having bought an iPhone 12, if you had bought Apple stock, you would have exploded the same sum for the same sum." I, myself, personally, what I do is that every time I buy an Apple product, and I'm fully invested, I invest the same amount in Apple. Yes. And I tell myself, "Yes, it's a very good stock," and I tell myself, "At least it's not perfect, but I'm cushioning the blow a bit." And it's true that it's hard, you see, it's like you invested in the worst people. I think the worst people are those who bought Bitcoin and then bought objects with that Bitcoin. I have a friend who bought a MacBook, today his MacBook is worth €50,000. So that really hurts the heart. He paid 0.5 Bitcoin at the time, the poor guy. It's like the pizza, 10,000 Bitcoin at the time, it's the pizza at 10,000 Bitcoin, but well, 10,000 Bitcoin, that hurts. But so, in short, the savings rate is the adjustment variable. And you can do the calculation, you look at how much you can save and try to put a little more. You put a little more. And especially, how can you put a little more? Well, you'll say, "I save €500 a month." Now, I'll go to €600. And as soon as your money comes in, automatic transfer. So you don't even have to do manual actions. And since the money won't be in your account by magic, it will work. And the other hack that I like, it's not a hack in reality, but it's very basic, is that I have a debit card, I don't have a credit card. So I don't need to look at the overdraft, because I can't be overdrawn, in fact. So I can't spend more than I have. And since I no longer have the money I'm going to save in my account, because it's already gone to another account. Well, yes, because in fact, you separate the accounts. So the money comes in, automatic transfer. You pay on the first of the month, on the second of the month, automatic transfer to the savings account. And there, in fact, what remains, so that's the account with which you... that's the money you have left to live on. And you can treat yourself. You see, these are important hacks because we see that it's very hard to have this discipline you're talking about, for example, delaying your standard of living by a year. It's terrible because your classmates who graduated the same year as you, who are on the same salaries, they will allow themselves trips, etc., that you can't. And even entrepreneurs, you see, and even entrepreneurs, your classmates are in great jobs, they earn a fortune. Yes, you're a bit of the black sheep. But believe me, you know, it's the whole thing about immediate gratification. Exactly. It's deferred gratification. Deferred is always the most profitable. Exactly. And that reminds me of this, you know this experiment that was done on kids, on this thing. They took kids, each alone in a room, and they gave them a cookie and told them, "If you don't eat it right away, I'll come back in 15 minutes. If it's still there, you'll have a second cookie." And in fact, they followed these guys for 15, 20 years after, and all the guys who didn't eat the first cookie had somewhat successful careers, and the others had a lot of problems. And in fact, each had hacks to not eat the cookie. That's what's amazing, is that some sang, some walked around the table, some closed their eyes or ears, and then others immediately took the thing, you see. So, in a way, and in fact, it's crazy, but this thing of deferring the reward is not easy, in fact. That's what separates, ultimately, those who succeed a bit in everything, in investment and in the rest too. Yes, it's very difficult. And it's, you see, like in entrepreneurship today, you see the press headlines, Elon Musk, the richest man in the world. Wait, you have to read Elon Musk's biography to see how much he risked. He risked, he made a first company, he put half of what he earned from the first company into the second company. Then he put half of what he earned from the second company into the next companies, SpaceX. And then he was on the verge of bankruptcy 800 times. He slept in his factories, in his factories, he did completely crazy things. He's a guy who, honestly, is quite borderline, but he went to the extreme of it. And yes, today he's a billionaire and the richest in the world. But be careful, the sacrifices he made at every moment, he could have lost everything, he could have lost everything, and no one talks about it. We only see the result, we don't see the path taken. And every entrepreneur knows that, and that's why it's hard when we see in France that entrepreneurs who succeed are stigmatized. They went through very hard times, and especially they paid salaries, they allowed people to live too. So you really shouldn't just look at the outcome, you should also look at what happened before. And in investment, it's the same. It's, yes, okay, I deprive myself now, but in reality, it will pay big dividends. The only thing is, the limit for me is not to deprive yourself to the point of having a life that is a bit miserable to say, "Okay, the day I reach €1 million in wealth, then everything will be more beautiful." No, because in reality, the day you become a millionaire, it's exactly like the day before, and you say, "Now I need €10 million," and then you have a problem. Exactly. You always see the next step. However, the first million is really the hardest, and it's like the first €100,000 are the hardest, because that's the phenomenon of compound interest. Yes, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. But I had an idea for this part. You said earlier that stocks are not natural for French people to get into. Not at all. Less than 10% of French people own stocks. Whereas it's really impossible to build wealth and achieve your freedom without stocks, if you want stocks or stock indices. And what I tell as a story is that for a very long time, Steve Jobs was paid €1, $1, that was his salary, really, because in fact, everything was in his stocks. And when people see that so-and-so is worth €1 billion, €5 billion, €10 billion, of course, it's never cash, no one has cash. So, in fact, these guys, their entire fortune is almost in stocks, whether they are listed or not, etc. They have access to other things than others, but when you know that these guys, it's all stocks they have, you can say, "Okay, it's not exotic to put money into stocks." Because in France, we have the impression that it's really the connoisseurs who invest in stocks, whereas it's all those who have some wealth who are forced to invest in stocks, otherwise you can't do anything with just cash, in fact. You see, especially since it's great because we are both entrepreneurs, there are many entrepreneurs who watch the video, and here we both have the chance to take a small share of the best companies in the world, of Nvidia, which I think is the craziest company in history, you see. I bought GeForce cards before, yes, graphics cards, and today they've pivoted to AI, and it's a money-printing machine, this company. Well, you can become a shareholder of this company. You can become a shareholder of LVMH, which makes Louis Vuitton. It's... it's a click away from France, you're here, you invest, and it's almost free to invest, you see, there are almost no fees. So it's really crazy. And that's the biggest wealth creation machine. And you look at the big fortunes, indeed, their wealth is not, they don't have 60 houses, because already you can't, at some point, you have 15 chalets, that's enough, imagine the management of these things. On the other hand, you can have a billion dollars in stocks, in ETFs, and in one click you get them back, in one click you move them, change them, stock action. That's... it's incredible. And that's the strength of this asset. By the way, there's a Twitter account that follows the positions of congressmen, senators, yes, senators, American senators. And so you can see, yes, you can, because it's public, they have to declare. And the Vice President of the United States today, who will take office soon, had 5 million in Nasdaq index, so tech companies, 5 million in S&P 500 index, I think, 500,000 Bitcoin, and 500,000 Nvidia. That's his portfolio. And in fact, he must have cash, and perhaps some real estate, but that's nothing compared to this quantity. He doesn't have...
100 million in real estate or 100 million in cash, it's mainly in stocks and indices, you know. And by the way, you can also see Trump's net worth, who I believe has 6 million euros in crypto because he received donations, he has state assets and all that. And I had analyzed the net worth of the former Prime Minister, uh, I'm forgetting his name, what's his name again? Oh, Gabriel Attal, yes, Gabriel Attal, who had a rather interesting net worth. And so we had also looked at the net worth of the presidential candidates, and there, in fact, it's a reflection of the financial education we receive. There's an apartment from time to time, and there's €100,000 in current accounts, savings accounts at most. We know that doesn't yield anything, but they don't have stocks, no, very few. There was Bruno Le Maire who had stocks, and that was it. And there was Valérie Pécresse, who had €100 million in real estate. We love real estate in France. That's actually a transition because to finish, I'd like to talk about leverage, debt, okay? Debt leverage. So it's fascinating because when you're poor, quote-unquote, money, income, serves to pay your bills and your rent. When you're a bit more middle class, it serves to pay rent, food, but also to pay off your mortgage. Real estate is generally what you own as assets. And then when you're rich, well, in fact, credit allows you to become even richer because you have stocks and so on, you can borrow against that collateral. And in fact, through credit, they manage to double or triple their net worth. That's crazy, that's incredible. It's credit to credit, like the poor, except it's credit that makes you richer. That's what's incredible. And, and in fact, so, at what level do you think this credit leverage in France, I know a few entrepreneurs who, when they reached 3 or 4 million, started to have this leverage. Starting from there, in 15 years, it might become 7 or 8 million because banks lent them money, they take on real estate, and then they have, as you say, annual balance sheets that allow them to do even more. It's incredible that when you're rich today, if you're not very stupid, you're condemned to just get bigger and bigger. It's much simpler. That's why they say the first million is the hardest because it's really much simpler to go from 1 to 2, from 2 to 10. Yes, because in fact, you have access to much more things. You've also made many mistakes, so you also know what to do and what not to do. But basically, to get yourself into debt to buy real estate, so that's a classic mortgage. And what's great is that we all have an individual borrowing capacity which is, let's say, 30%, a bit less, 35% I think, of our income, minus rent, etc., or remaining disposable income, you see. You need to have enough remaining disposable income. So that's capped at a certain point. I'd say, unless you earn, unless you're Mbappé. Yes, quickly capped. But if you have a company, you can go much further. And if you have a company that owns real estate because you've bought many properties, well, then you'll just put your balance sheet as collateral, and your bank will trust you because it knows you know how to operate. And so, indeed, we all have entrepreneurs around us who have 30, 40, 50, 60, 100 properties. And these are not geniuses, they are just people who are hyper methodical and who, tick-tock-tick-tock, chain things together. However, what they especially have is a profitable company. In fact, the profitable company is a bit like, you know, the, yeah, it's the diamond. You know, they show it to the banker, they say, look what I have, and the banker says, okay, go ahead, I'll give you credit so you stay with me, without selling the company, without selling the company. That's what's magical. Then you can do LBOs, well, we won't go into that. The other huge tool is indeed when you're a bit more well-off. But we offer it to clients at Finar who have, let's say, from €500,000 in life insurance or in a PEA. You can also do it in a securities account. What you'll do there is what you described earlier, you'll do a Lombard loan. So you have €500,000 in the S&P 500, and a bank will tell you, I'll lend you €250,000 at a rate that will be, let's say, around 4% right now, a bit less. And its security is, its security is that they will... Exactly. But you remain invested 100%, so you continue to benefit from the compounding effect. Exactly. So the markets go up, the markets can go down too, obviously. But they lend you 50%. That's why they only lend you 50% in case, because if there's a 50% drop, well, at worst, they take the collateral, you see. But well, for you, basically, that won't happen. And so this money, you can decide to do what with it? Well, you can put it back in the pot, and so you've just put in €250,000, and theoretically, by buying S&P 500, by buying S&P 500, and you could do another Lombard on it to do the same thing. That's what very rich people do. That's a bit of a secret, you know, a secret. Someone who is very rich, let's say they have 100 million, invests in the S&P 500, they'll take out a loan for, let's say, 100 million. In fact, it's like a credit line on demand. They do what they want, they'll draw on it, that's what it's called, and they'll live on it because they pay 4% for this line, while the S&P 500 earns 10%. Yeah, so you see, but that's incredible. And so it's an arbitrage, it's, it's, it's magical. And at one point, not too long ago, the loan you paid 1%. Yeah, that was 5 years ago. There wasn't even a free arbitrage. And so when they say the rich get richer and richer, it's because, well, snowball effect, compound interest, and above all, they borrow even more. And so there really is this, this is good debt. Then there's bad debt. What is bad debt? It's credit card debt, it's, you know, it's buying items like buying your Hermes belt on credit. That's bad debt. Good debt is what allows you to build your capital. That's great. You have to go into debt. It's scary, but in fact, somewhere, you see, debt is just someone else giving you capital, but it's you who gets richer. That's great, you see. Exactly. And before having this company, this core group you're talking about, which allows you to do all that, if you're more of a freelancer or a young employee, you're not going to, as you said earlier, do only very safe, very secure things, because when it's secure, the return is very low. You have to have, maybe, instead of doing only, there are people who are young who say, I'm going to make a few strong bets, like crypto, for example, and so on. And by the way, I don't want to do real estate, because if I do real estate right away, it's going to take a big chunk out of my room for maneuver, because financing your down payment, you have to finance your down payment, but also the monthly payments for the same apartment will be higher than if it were rent. And so I know entrepreneurs who have never bought an investment property, they've always been full stock investments, and so on, and they had much more leverage because 12% annual or 10% through something is better than real estate returns which are 2% annual, which is really not great, especially, you see, in Paris. And you see, I'm not a homeowner of my primary residence, although I have rental properties, but I don't think I'll ever buy it, or not for a very long time, unless it's psychological and you just want to know that you live in your own home. But financially, which makes sense, makes sense, but it doesn't really have any financial interest. It's almost always less profitable. Can you explain that? Well, it's quite simple: if you bought your primary residence, what would you do? You'd buy the biggest residence possible, the apartment you dream of, and so on. So you'd go for the biggest loan. This big loan, basically, will cancel out your borrowing capacity, you won't be able to borrow anymore. So already, you can't do rentals anymore. You put a huge down payment. You pay notary fees which are actually 85% tax. So in fact, it's not notary fees, it's taxes, just that it's money you could have invested, that you could have also invested, that you'll never see again because, you see, the bank lends you this, that's good, you see. And it's a fixed-rate loan, so that's great. You move into the apartment, and everyone will say, yes, but that's great because now I'm not throwing rent out the window anymore. Yes, but you're paying off a monthly payment month after month after month, and on top of that, you've paid monstrous notary fees, 8% if you buy a million-euro apartment, you've put in €80,000 before even paying that off. That's huge, you see. You could have put a lot of rent in there, so that's lost. Now, if you don't do that, you say, I'm okay living in a better apartment in a big city for less money, because that's the reality, you see, an apartment, the monthly payment costs much more than the rent. You'll say, I just want to borrow to death to buy rental properties. A rental property is a productive asset. You borrow, you buy a T2, you rent it out long-term under a scheme called LMNP. There are 100 videos on it, frankly, it's quite basic. You amortize, you amortize the value of the property, you amortize the property accounting-wise, which cancels out your income. But basically, you rent the property, let's say you have an €800 monthly payment, you rent it for €800. It's a bit of a break-even operation, not really, because in reality, you still pay a few extra things, but it doesn't cost you much out of pocket. In the meantime, you won't pay much, you see, to pay off the monthly payment. It's your tenant who pays off the monthly payment. Maybe you put in, let's say, €100 for taxes, things like that. But in the meantime, you're getting richer. Yes. And you can do one, two, five, you can do many such properties. And at some point, you can enter into a spiral that's quite magical, which is that the bank will see that you know how to make profitable operations, you see. And so, here I'm talking, it will lend you more because it will say, well, we know, you know, you know how to operate, so go ahead, we'll lend you a bit more. It unlocks something in the game, you unlock a new level in the net worth game, exactly. And you can, I invite everyone to do it, which is to buy a first apartment anyway, to test it, because all the guys who sell training, what they don't say is that there are water leaks, there are tenants who don't pay, there's turnover. It's terrible. And we have many clients who tell us, frankly, I sold all my properties, never talk to me about real estate again, I prefer to do SCPI, which is basically managed real estate for you, or I prefer to do stocks, because there are no water leaks in ETFs, according to the latest news, so you see, it's safe. But basically, it's really a philosophical choice. Yes, you want to be at home, no problem. However, since you're going to, you're going to really put everything to your advantage, you're going to put the maximum budget, well, rental real estate will be difficult, and rental real estate, it's deferred gratification. Yes. And the real news is that my bet is to say, I'm going to buy rental properties with my borrowing capacity, because you all have a borrowing capacity if you're on a permanent contract, you should use it, you should use it. If you have a profitable company, you have it, you should use it. And my dream primary residence apartment, I'll buy it with the fruit of my labor, so from my company. And so the day I sell my company, or the day I can sell a small part, then I'll do something crazy. And then, it's stupid, you see. Then I'll tell you, I put, it's ridiculous, I put two jacuzzis in the thing, but I'm at home, but I'm at home, and above all, I'm not counting. It's not really an asset for that. It's what's called even a use asset. It's a pleasure, it's a pleasure. It's literally a, you know, a paid pleasure. A banker will look at that and say, we don't even look at that, because we're not going to sell it anyway. This property, we won't even touch it. It's your cocoon. However, rental properties, and I don't care at all about rental properties, you see, I do it purely for profit. I don't look at the decor that I like, I look at the decor that my tenant likes. So it's market positioning, it's just product positioning. And so choose. And once you've chosen, if you don't want a primary residence, go all out on rental properties. Okay. Then there are many schemes, you see, but that's really very profitable, interesting. To finish, we talked about all that, but the asset that performed the most in the last 10 years is called Bitcoin. It's neither in real estate, nor in stocks, nor in the intelligent things we're talking about. What's your position on Bitcoin? There are people who have become very rich with luck through Bitcoin, but how, how do you integrate it today? For me, Bitcoin is really the revenge of the little guys against the big guys, because in fact, it's the first time that we, the little guys, could buy something first, and the mega-rich, the mega, yeah, the beginning of the Ponzi, the mega-rich, the banks, they arrived today, at 100,000, barely, barely, they're not even in it. So what's my position? Well, in fact, do you think states, whatever they may be, will buy it? No, not even. Even worse, do you think states have, have more, have an interest in protecting you? Do you have 100% confidence in the state, and do you think the state will always have your best interest at heart? If the answer is yes, I have doubts, though. Well, you have to protect yourself. And before, we protected ourselves with gold. There's a world war, I have gold. There's a conflict, I have gold. There's a political crisis, I have gold. The problem with gold is that you have to store it, it's very hard to sell, you have huge fees, to move it, then when you move it, it's difficult to secure, literally. So, there's Bitcoin that arrived, and it's digital gold. It turns out to be very volatile, it moves a lot. So it's true that today, for now, for now, when it's very big, more stable, it will be more stable. So my theory is to say, the capitalization, the value, basically, of gold in the world is 18 trillion dollars, okay? If we have the equivalent, if gold basically reaches the same value, Bitcoin is worth 1 million. Yes, each Bitcoin is worth 1 million. And the good news is that Bitcoin is very close to gold because there's a limited quantity of Bitcoin in the world, just like there's a limited quantity of gold. The difference between the two is that we don't know exactly how much gold there is on Earth. On the other hand, we know exactly that there will never be more than 21 million Bitcoins. So, do I think Bitcoin is a must-have? Yes, of course. Do I think you should go all-in? No. However, I think if you want to dip your toes in, you put 1% of your net worth. If you're more experienced, you put 5%. And if you're really sure it's the future, well, okay, but a bit more, but 10%, 15%. But you still have to remain reasonable. But not having it today is difficult. And you see, people who tell me, but wait, it's too late, we're at 100,000 today. Yes, but in fact, I was already talking to you about it 5 years ago, and we were at 1,000 or 2,000, and we were saying the same thing, and we were saying the same thing. And so, at some point, you'll have to go for it, just like the S&P 500. The S&P 500 has exploded in recent years. So not getting into it today, well, ultimately, you'll get into it at a higher price. So having it, frankly, is good, but in a proportion that is kept. And what's great about Bitcoin is that it's been declared dead, I think, year after year, many times, and it's still here. And if, and today, in fact, it has been validated by the fact that BlackRock or Fidelity, Trump, Trump, the biggest figures of authority and the biggest asset managers are taking companies, are taking companies today, there are many companies that have Bitcoin on their balance sheet. And states will perhaps take it. There are already states that are taking it, El Salvador, well, it's a bit of a state, not a small state, but even if the United States really takes it, the United States will buy it. Trump said he will do it. Will Trump do it? Yes, I think there's a good chance. And so, here we are in a world where the most powerful, richest state in the world has Bitcoin on its balance sheet. Do you, individuals, not want to do the same? I think if it's the moment, clearly, clearly. I'm more risk-averse on Bitcoin because, as you said, it's a question of belief. So I had put more than 10%, but it's, and it's become even more, consequently, if it's become even more, exactly, because I don't sell, and this whole theory of this approach of holding, you see. But clearly, it's a lot of chance, though, in the sense that building your fortune on a company or freelancing by saving is much safer, and it's mathematical. You'll reach a point much more surely than if you go all-in on Bitcoin when you're 20 years old and you wait, and 5 or 6 years later, you've missed the opportunity to invest in the S&P 500 for a long time. That's it, that's it. Invest in yourself, invest in your knowledge, invest in your company, your investments. That's the worst that will ensure you a quiet retirement or financial independence. And at best, maybe you bought the next Bitcoin and you'll become rich thanks to that. Exactly. But statistically, yes, it will be your company that will do it. Cool, thank you very much, Mounir. Thank you, Rémi. I tell everyone to go test your simulator. I think you have a simulator that allows you to know when I'll retire if I invest X amount at Y age, etc., at what age I can just say goodbye, I'm stopping everything. Yes, you tell us how much you want to earn. Yes, and you tell us how much you have today, and we'll tell you how long it will take. Great. If you want more videos on this, don't hesitate to put it in the comments. People, if they like these topics, our audience will let us know in the comments, so we can do more episodes. And with pleasure, to do a Finar Talk one day. Thank you. Bye.