Chris Martenson: "The Bullet that Killed Charlie Kirk Defies Physics"

The Tyler Robinson act alone. Was there a second shooter in Charlie Kirk's assassination? There's been a lot of theories floating around. What's fact? What's BS? Today I have Chris Martinsson, who's probably done the best coverage on this on YouTube, as well as Matt Tajio, ex-military, to have a three-way conversation on the various theories, what makes sense and what doesn't.

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To get it started, I'd love you to walk us through um the various questions you have on the um you know the official theory that we or the official conclusions that we have starting with the gunshot wound because I think this is the probably the biggest unanswered question.

>> Well, sure. So, look, we were presented a a scenario very quickly that there was a lone shooter and we had that grainy potato cam footage of somebody jumping off a roof and and it was established very quickly that there was one person that we were looking for. Also, that gave us the shooting scene. So, they really uh presented us with that right away that there was this one spot. It's a spot. It's about 140 yards away. There was indents in the roof. We can calculate all kinds of things from that. But to get to your point, where that shot was allegedly taken from with the weapon allegedly used, which is a 30 six, the wound is entirely inconsistent with that weapon in that spot. Uh, it really just couldn't have happened exactly like they said.

So, um, if it makes sense, I can just jump into a few of these slides here that sort of help orient people to this a little bit. Um, and so this is a drone footage taken from the day after the shooting. So this is September 11th. Charlie was sitting right under this tent right here. He was right under this apex almost exactly. So that gives us sort of a visual reference where he is. And this courtyard's laid out in these um odd sort of concrete barriers and grass areas that are stepping up about 18 in each. And so he was right at the tip of this. You can see this is a good visual cue right at the point of that gets right down to where he was. Um, and this sort of gives us a larger overview of that actual site here. I'll take myself out of the picture real quick. Um, so we can see there's all kinds of roofs around here. Now we're over what's called the Sorenson building here looking from Charlie's left. This is a direction that I'm kind of interested in in terms of where a potential shot may have come from. We'll get to that in a minute. But there were people all above him in that reddish area with um with the railing there. There was somebody taking video from there. There's video being taken from all over the place down there. So, we have we have some pretty good video to work with here. And this was entirely full of people up to onto that thing up in the upper left here, this prow area. Somebody was there. Still the Sorenson building here. But now we have to get all the way over to the what's called the Losi building. And yep, that's where the alleged shooter was hanging out right there.

So, what that means to us is we can skip past this and look at this spot here. You can see a few evidence tags. And this would have been the shooter location would have been right to there. So that's about 140 yards exactly. It's also a little bit elevated from Charlie's position, giving you a 10° down angle. And also, it's not exactly orthogonal to Charlie. If you drew a line straight off of his body, perpendicular heading out into the world, it would have ended up over here. So he's also about 10° off of perfectly straight on. And that that sort of comes into how we have to understand the wound. Uh you know they took pictures of these indents here. This is showing where the shooter would have been I guess. Um and so that's their story. Somebody was sitting in the spot with a 300 6 took a single shot. And um we have one video. This is somebody took this before the shot rang out and stopped filming before the shot happened. But we do have what appears to be in that same spot we were just looking at. It looks like look kind of looks like a person lying down um in a shooting position. No lie, that's kind of what it looks like. Now again, this gives us about 139 yards if you measure on Google Earth, but it's a hypotenuse little bit longer. So 140 yards. And this is really important when we get to later analyses about sounds and uh you know what we can analyze in terms of hard evidence off of people's audio files. And he was about nine degrees off axis, but I'll call it 10 just just to be clear. It's a little under 10, but we'll call it we'll call it 10 just to be it's just easier.

So, what was the shot? The shot was taken from here. It would have come in This is a a still taken from Charlie's left just from a video just before the shot rang out. You can see he's a little slouched. He's a little slouched. And that red dotted line is transsecting his throat about where the wound appeared and at a 10° angle. And here at this angle, that wound trajectory is going to miss. It's not going to hit any bones whatsoever. Um, this is a still taken right after he was shot. This is the wound we see right here. I think there's a little blood on the t-shirt there. This would be his center line where the spine would be located. So, at a 10° angle without considering the other off-axis angle, this thing is coming down and it's going to skip. It's going to there's no bones in the way here whatsoever. Um, he went right into what's called a pugilus pose immediately. So, the right hand, you can see, is clenched in that. It's called a decorticate posturing position. It speaks to a neuronal damage at about the midbrain. Um, and so that's a pretty common thing you see with people. If they really fall and hit their head hard, particularly from the back, they can go into that pose very quickly. It tells us something though, very important, which is that he still has the nerves are still intact because if you ever get your spinal column completely transsected, you just go limp. You go completely there's no muscle tone possible. So, this tells us something that he still has neuronal connection at least through what's called the C8 nerve, the cervical, the eighth nerve. Uh, it's still it's intact. Um, this is kind of what an entrance wound would look like. They're very small. This is an exit wound. This is from a deer. You know, it's passing through about 12 in of of deer body here. Just to reinforce the idea that that wound we saw in the front confused a lot of people because it didn't look like an entrance wound.

Now, we'll take it a little bit further. If this is the 10 degree downs slope, this person's hunched over a little bit. I think in the exact same posture as Charlie, close as we can. Um, h theoretically, maybe if the wound was lower than we thought for some reason, you could maybe encounter the top of the first rib. But here, we would expect this bullet, if it did, to go up this way. As well, we have that other 10° angle where this would again would be perfectly orthogonal coming straight in. This is the neck, which is smaller than the head, obviously. Here's the wound. So, at a 10° angle, this thing is this bullet would have gone straight through about 5 in of human neck, and it would have completely missed the spine over here, which is the thing that you would have to hit something really hard with a 300 6. Even if it was kind of a low-end, low lower velocity 300 6 uh soft point mushrooming, you know, hunting tip, you're still it's going to be hard to to hit anything and make it bounce. The spine itself is got a pretty rigorous bone right in the body of the spine itself, but most of it's made of these really kind of wimpy things. Um, tubacles and and these spinous processes. This posterior tubacle, this would have been the thing that would have been on the side of Charlie's neck. That would have been the only bone that could have possibly been in the way slightly at a 10° angle. Here we can see cross-section of a human neck at about the C7 level, which is where that round came in. And it would have come in here, made this hole, obviously completely transsected the jugular vein, probably done a lot of damage to the corateed vein as well, just because of the explosive mushrooming that happens and the cavitation. But as you can see, this would have gone straight through basically nothing. This is a very easy through and through round. This is not there's really no bones in the way. And the way ballistics works is is bullets go in a straight line until and unless something acts on them. And you know, people say, "Oh, Chris, you know, they do crazy things in bodies." Um, but they they don't until unless they hit something. They have to hit something pretty hard. And in this case, there's really nothing hard getting hit here at all. And um so, but there was no exit wound, right? So, what do we do with that information? And the only thing I can think to do with that information is to posit that this round shot at this angle would have gone through and through the neck easy. It probably would have gone through five necks in a row. And um if we can watch, you know, you can watch all these videos over and over again. And even the lightest grain bullet I can find for a 300 6, which is 150 grain, it's just a very light light load. It has the fewest amount of footbs of pressure, which is how they measure the the force of a bullet.

>> barrel with a Leopold VX3 HD scope up top. We'll be taking three shots from 100 yards, firing into 10% ballistics gel that has been calibrated to meet the FBI's ballistics testing protocol. And while ballistics gel isn't an exact proxy for big game, it does provide a repeatable medium through which to test various bullets and ammo against each other. After the shots, we'll examine bullet expansion, weight retention, penetration, and velocity. My goal is to provide hunters like you and I with the most objective information possible to help us make the best choice for our particular hunting situation. So, let's go ahead and shoot this stuff before the sun gets brighter or the wind gets stronger. And we're down at the blocks after the first shot with a normal 150 grain whitetail ammo. We have a good wound cavity. Relatively shallow, at least compared to some of the heavier 30 6 ammo that I fired. Coming on back, we have the bullet captured right there. Nice and pretty. And we got the tape measure set up. It looks like our penetration for this first shot is right about 19 19 20 in something like that.

So, what's the lesson here? First, um that bullet when it first enters the block, it you you saw there was sort of a ruined area. We can talk about that in a second, but it when a bullet is first hitting a target, it has the most amount of force it's going to have. It leaves the barrel of the rifle with a certain amount of energy measured in foot-pounds. And a footb is if you take a one pound block and drop it a foot, that energy that that releases when it hits, that's a foot-pound. Uh, it's kind of an archaic measure. But a standard, this round right here is going to be carrying around 2,200 foot-lb. And there are certain 306 rounds that go up over 3,000 foot-pounds. Meaning, if you had a 2,200lb block and dropped it a foot, that's how much power it has when it first is encountering when it first leaves the barrel. After 140 yards, it maybe bleeds off 10% of that. So, let's say it has 2,000 foot-lbs of pressure. So when it encounters a soft neck, the first thing it's going to continue doing is going in exactly the direction it's going until it bleeds off a lot of that energy or it encounters something capable of resisting that energy. And that's just not something a human neck has at all. Um, best guess 306 even with a soft hunting round like this would have just basically torn that whole side of his his neck apart and would have gone clean out the back. So, that presents a bit of a conundrum because we have to otherwise start invoking magic bullet theories and you know, I've been allergic to those since JFK, right? It's just um it's just not how physics works.

>> Let me So, so you've got a few points here, Matt. I'd love to get your thoughts on it. Um you know, the points that were mentioned by Chris. First, obviously, there's a small entry wound um that on video just seems pretty big, bigger than what you'd expect. H you've got all the blood gushing out relatively quickly. I would guess an artery was hit hit but I'd love to get your thoughts on this uh Matt and then you've got that kind of the I'll call it a boxing pose. I don't know what term you've used Chris or technical term kind of that pose that means that nerves were not damaged because the nerves need to be still not intact but still functional for that tense hand otherwise the hand will just flop out from what I assume Chris um I know this is pretty uh graphic for some people you know, can't not be graphic and and lastly is uh the rifle round um a 30 odd six round would go through more than just one neck and would not ricochet off the bones in a neck which are relatively thin Chris did I oversimplify the points relatively well for the audience and then get Matt's thoughts.

>> No, that was that was great. Just if I could add one thing, that confusing entrance wound, it should be very small, >> but it wasn't. And we saw this and we can see this later. He had since the bullet that that was shot into him did stay in there. It dumped all of that um energy, let's call it 2,000 foot-lbs, and that swelled him up. But without an exit wound, I think what might have happened is it might have pushed back out, right? because all that pressure has to go somewhere. So, it could have made a very small wound that actually got over pressured and and expanded a little bit. It's called a vulse. It would have like pushed out, but that's a guess at this point in time. Um, best guess I have for why cuz the entrance wound should be 3 0. Should be fairly small.

Matt, >> yeah, I agree with him on how the entrance wound looks. I mean, the first time that I saw it, I actually looked at it and I said that is an exit wound. And he was actually shot from about his 5:00 position. Um, and that was just kind of based on everything that I've seen. in the way directions which his body moved. I agree with him for the reason his body seized up and everything else. Um, you know, I kind of want to start off with addressing the ballistics gel um area first because it's a pretty common misconception that 18 inches of ballistics gel equals 18 in of human flesh. Simply not true. Um, a good personal reference that I can refer to is a standard 124 grain hydrack penetrates approximately 15 inches of ballistics gel. personally seen one of those shot into a human's face from about 15 feet away and it didn't come out the back side of his head. As a matter of fact, the head didn't deform at all. It went in right underneath his eye socket and his eyeball didn't even distort or move in any type of you know it for the intensive parts and I'm sorry for being a little bit graphic here but we just got to kind of be that way. Didn't come out the back of the head. Now average human head is about 8 in in diameter right as we look at that. So if if I'm looking at the human skull and I'm saying this is the average length that I'm I'm getting out of the human skull is about eight inches. But I know this penetrates about 15 inches of ballistics gel and that's a completely different round, right? Completely different projectile. It's got a bunch of different surface area. It's also designed to mushroom and open up. But again, we're talking ballistics gel versus actual flesh. And so it's a totally different penetration. So on the human body I got about 4 in worth of penetration versus on ballistics gel which is pushing over one foot. So, we've got a completely different separation there. What the FBI and what all of the other law enforcement agencies use when they look at ballistics gel is essentially this bullet is able to penetrate so much, but what they're really looking at is the wound cavity and everything else that goes into it. So, just because we're getting 19 in of penetration doesn't necessarily mean that's what it's going to get in the body. I think your report is very very well done. Um, and I don't think you're wrong. I think there is 100% if that bullet was traveling at full velocity that it should have gone through the neck entirely minus one or two exceptions as we look at it. So that's the first thing I'd like to address there. Um I agree with you. In order for that projectile to stay in his neck, what we're going to have to have is a lesser muzzle velocity, right? So for that to come down. And so the first thing that I got to do is can I rule out a lower muzzle velocity? So let's look at what we do know about the rifle. In one of your videos, you pointed out it would be really nice if they ended up telling us what cartridge it was and ended up showing us the stamps on it because then we could figure out a heck of a lot more. We get the lot number. We could figure out if there's any problems with that. We'd know the grain. Dude, we know a lot of information if they just released those. They also said that the um the casings were engraved. And I couldn't help but notice that down at the um ICE facility shooting in Dallas, Texas, they said that those cartridges were engraved, too, but I believe they were written on with a Sharpie. Right. And so I'm kind of curious what their idea of engraved is because if they were truly engraved and he weakened that that cartridge, that casing, now those fit very tightly into the chamber when they go in there. But having that weakened casing, we could have a loss in pressure and it could cause several other malfunctions within the rifle within itself just from having a weakened uh, you know, casing for that cartridge. Um, so those are two things I'd like to point out right off top, but can I necessarily rule out a lower muzzle velocity? Right? So, let's look at what we know about the rifle. According to his warrantless affidavit that got filed for his arrest, it was his grandfather's rifle that got passed down um to his father and then to him. Um I do not know if ammunition was passed down with it. But what I do know also from that warrantless affidavit is that there was targets inside of his apartment, excuse me, apartment house, whatever it was he was living in with uh his significant other. We'll we'll stick there and stay uncontroversial. Um that particular target, it was very obvious that it was being used for target practice. So, how can is is there a reasonable explanation for that rifle to have had a lower muzzle velocity but still travel in the same direction? Believe it or not, there is. We're in 2025 right now. We're just coming out of CO. Um, one of the things that ended up happening, so back then I worked at a firearms training facility. I trained law enforcement snipers while I was there amongst other people. Okay. But the the one thing that I I noticed while I was there, we were buying ammunition in mass quantities, like just tons of it. It was very hard to get a hold of back then. it was going up for inflated prices and what we ended up seeing was a bunch of ammunition factories and plants open up around the country and because of that we ended up having lower standards for that ammunition coming out. So a lot of the ammo plants were pumping out um they were basically out of spec. Um some of them would pump out you know uh cartridges that would have zero gunpowder in them. Some of them would have light gunpowder in them. Some of them would have the wrong powder. Some of them would you know like we had a lot of problems with ammunition back then and they were mass-produced. So, it is possible that some of that ammunition could have made its way in there. Now, if that's the case, then that can account for a lower muzzle velocity. A lot of people think that because you have a lower muzzle velocity or maybe if it wasn't a full load that it couldn't have, you know, it couldn't have shot straight and that's just simply not true. That's not how it works. You've got three different types of ballistics. You've got internal, external, and terminal ballistics. Internal ballistics is basically everything that happens from the chamber forward until it ends up leaving the crown of the rifle. And then you have external ballistics once that projectile leaves and it gets to its intended target or until it strikes an object. And then we start on the terminal ballistics phase, which is everything it does once it strikes something until it comes to a halt. In this case, what we'd be looking at for terminal ballistics, unfortunately, is Charlie Kirk's body. So sir, I believe you said it was uh 10° is what you had calculated to. It is fine work, by the way. Like I'm not here to shoot down your work whatsoever. I think you did amazing work. Um, so that angle is is appears to me to be pretty accurate. It went over, checked your work, looked at it. I think he did a dang fine job. Uh, there's one more angle that we need to look at, and that would be the angle of his body and his neck. So, we know that that projectile ended up entering his neck somewhere around hereish, right? And if you'll notice that angle on your neck is just a little bit different, right? It's almost at a 45 going back over towards the back or maybe maybe a little more, maybe a little less. So, we've got that 10° to add to whatever degree his neck was sitting at if he was forward. Now, if you was slightly to the side in any direction, that's another angle that we have to account for and add on to that. And there's a reason I bring that up. Um, when you're talking about terminal ballistics and projectiles impacting targets, they are flying through the air. Now, unlike um what you had talked about of footpound, right? So, there we actually have a bunch of weight behind it that's going to drive that into the object, right? Because we have this weight that's set, it's driving it into the object. In this case, we have the kinetic energy of it as it's flying through the air. And there's not really any weight behind it. And so all of this kinetic energy is flying. Now, what ends up happening when you end up having grab like a sheet of paper here. See if I can make this a little bit easier for you guys. If it's flying straight on, all of that kinetic energy is transferred directly into that target. If it's changed just slightly, what ends up happening is we end up having it bite in one side. So, as you're looking at it here, it's going to end up biting in on my right side, your left side as you're staring at me. Or maybe it's vice versa on camera. I forget. >> You're right. and it's going to cause it to yaw and it's going to cause it to turn inward in this case as it goes in as it bites because the full force on the outside is still being applied while this side's meeting a little bit of resistance. This is what we end up seeing when you know we're shooting through windshields and things of that nature, right? Because it's a curvature and so when that projectile hits, it's going to bite in and it's going to yaw up and it's going to direct itself going downward. We see the similar effect going to bodies. When we end up adding in soft tips, we have an entirely different issue that we end up having to account for, right? which is is it going to be enough to actually cause it to expand? Um, one of the things that I noticed in your video um that you were talking about was uh damage to the CNS, right? Or the uh central nervous system in particular. And I I don't I'm not a medical doctor, don't get me wrong. Um might have know a heck of a lot about ballistics, but when it comes to that, I'm going to leave that up to you. That's entirely there. Uh but what we know about fluids, right, is they're not compressing. This is why we have brake fluid. That's why we have everything. And it's the same thing that goes in the body. So when we see that ballistics gel open up and then shrink back down, what we're actually looking at is the hydrostatic shock is what it's commonly referred to. Basically that projectile displacing, right, displacing fluid and displacing meat as it's traveling through the body along with the shock wave that goes into it causes it to open up. So and it would be a question for you, you know, with it entering in the body right there and knowing that we're not compressing those and it's going up and you're absolutely right about the blowback of the round coming back out through the hole in the neck. Do you think that there's enough hydrostatic shock in this case in order to cause damage to the CNS in that location in order to make it happen?

>> Um well, I've I've um I've been through a lot of rounds with doctors because because there's uh several who have said listen in all their experience. One guy who's a neurologist knows way more than I do about this stuff and said, "Look, if you're going to have that decorticate posturing, that happens only when you get damage to the midbrain, specifically above something called the red nucleus." And so I was asking, could we have that hydrostatic shock? could it have like pushed material back up through the opening in the brain uh pan back there where your spinal column exits. So could that account for it? And they said if they did that he would have gone what's called disserate. He would have just gone limp because it would have ruined all of the neuronal connection. So it's right now it's an open mystery how we get that that posturing.

>> given the wound damage we saw and in particular if you know we just saw Steven Gardner and also uh Alex Jones had said that they had heard from somebody inside TPUSA that his C2 through C6 vertebrae were absolutely smashed and the bullet was located at the T1. I don't have confirmation for that. I'm really just I'm waiting. But I've heard that and all of a sudden I have a lot of questions that come up um around that because that that really complicates all kinds of stories that we have right now.

>> Well, then you're driving shock into the CNS directly which would travel up and down the spinal column. Correct.

>> Yes.

>> So then then we could possibly look at it. Um now the interesting part about this, so um I remember somebody that ended up getting shot in the arm um from about 20 m awayish. Um and that projectile was AK-47 round actually penetrated his arm and then rode up uh the bone before it worked its way around into the back side of him um and ended up coming to arrest there. So when we start talking about external ballistics, there's a lot of different factors. Um that same angle that we talk about for the left and right, we also have to account for an up and down. So as we're looking at that coming from an upward to downward angle and we when we start taking that account and where is it going to bite and what's it going to do? while that top is going to end up touching a little bit and it's going to cause it to yaw just ever so slightly in addition to that inward yaw that we're going to end up get off the angle of his neck as well. So essentially what I'm saying is from from my perspective the way I look at it as that projectile enters is is it possible for it to have yawed and turned into center of his neck. Yeah, I do believe that is possible. Um I do believe that uh and the other thing that we got to talk about is that kinetic energy that you mentioned um you know for that particular projectile that variable that we don't well two variables really that we don't know is one what the muzzle velocity of that projectile was or what the velocity of the projectile was when it entered into uh his neck and the other thing we don't know is the grain weight of that projectile when it went in. Those are the two factors are going to end up giving us the actual you know kinetic energy that that projectile is carrying. all of that kinetic energy that it's carrying, like you said, you know, up to 2,000 to 3,000 foot pounds, I believe, is going to end up getting dumped into that target. Now, if it passes clean through, we're only losing a fraction of that kinetic energy within that target. So, it's a transfer of energy into the target. It's not created or destroyed. It's just constantly changing, right? So, it's there and it's just changing form.

>> So, what that energy is doing is it's transferring in there and it's getting lost in the meat. It's getting lost in that body. So those, you know, 1, 500, 2,000 foot-lbs, whatever we're going to be dealing with in this case, all got transferred and went in there. And if it ended up, I mean, obviously it would have bled off a lot before it ended up hitting, you know, from the front of the neck to the back of the neck to hit that spinal column and then start traveling and working its way down. to me when I see that if if that is true that what you just stated from TPS TPUSA is true and it ended up impacting the bone and then working its way down that's very feasible based off of things I've seen in real life. Um that's not something that I think is is very far outstretched. The only problem that I have is the actual velocity of that projectile because I agree with you. If that projectile would have been fired at full speed, it should have theoretically gone all the way through. I I'm in complete agreeance with you there. Um, the question is what's the projectile? What's the ammo that he was using? What's the status of the barrel? What's the conditions? I mean, there's so many variables that we don't know.

>> Matt, you you said, you know, you have the initial um mid and then terminal. I want to break uh what happens when that round actually strikes a target like a human body.

>> Sure.

>> I break that into three three areas as well. It has its initial footpounds. It's coming in with everything >> and then it's going to start bleeding that off and there'll be a mid-hase of that where it's working its way down. And then it has what we'll call the terminal phase, which is when it's mostly bled off a lot of its energy. And that's when it's much more likely to follow a bone, a fascia layer, follow do crazy things. It's maybe deform. So it's following an arc all on its own. But that initial first moment, I have a hard time understanding how something could just turn 30° instantly. Like it has within an inch or two, it would have to strike and turn right away when it has all of its energy at that moment that it's going to have carrying into the body. So that that a windshield I could see, but a soft it's I don't have any real world examples of something striking something soft, a watermelon, uh anything where it just immediately goes the other direction. It's usually those first five six inches are it's doing what it's doing.

>> And that's the annoying part, right, is that we've got ballistics gel, which is as close as we can get to human flesh, right? And that's what we generally rely on. But like I the initial example I gave where you have 15-inch penetration on 124 grain jacket a hollowpoint hydrosocks that I have personally seen shot into somebody's face and it goes about 4 in in right >> but but those hydra shocks are specifically designed to pedal into a six uh you know >> they are designed to pedal out and they do that within and they do that within the ballistics gel as well right just like we saw in your ballistics >> test it's a bone if we could put some bones in ballistic gel I think that's more accurate um in that regard They do have those, but again, it's not the same as human flesh, right? There there's no substitute for that because it's going to all behave differently. So, as we like to sit there and look and say, "But ballistics gel, but ballistics gel," the the sad truth is ballistics gel does not do a good job of replicating what projectiles do.

>> Is it stronger? Is it does it have heavier resistance than the the the front end of the neck? Move it away from vertebrae.

>> Sure. So, let's say I I would go and I would take um I don't know, let's say uh deer skin, pigk skin, like pick pick a different animal, right? Um or even shooting through denim. You know, a lot of the jacketed hollow points that we look at um sometimes end up getting clogged up and actually don't perform as designed because you end up getting the denim that's actually stuck inside of them. Um and so they actually don't mushroom out at the end of the day. And that's also freaking frustrating, right? Um and so it's one thing when we have a hard time seeing it. Um, but I did want to explain what we're talking about here when you're you're saying I don't understand how it could start to turn and yaw right as it goes in there. Um, with just a little half, right, as you explained inside of your video, even if it hits a tree branch, it's going to throw it off course. Correct. If I'm shooting over yards of >> it's going to cause it to deflect. In some cases, I've seen like the tiniest tree branch that actually ends up causing them to tumble and go off. I mean, I've personally shot tens of thousands of freaking, you know, sniper rounds, like actual, you know, um, I don't even want to get into it, but lots and lots of bullets over my career. Um, and done studies, done ballistics gel tests, done them with long range cartridges, done them with six and a half Creedmore, 30 six, uh, 9 mil. I mean, pick a cartridge, I've shot it into ballistics, y'all, right? Um, the the deal is what we're looking at is as that projectile is going in, and you're never, by the way, good luck getting the same shot repeated twice. um as it's going in, what you have is you have resistance on one side, right, as it's biting in, but all you have is the m momentum of this thing flying through the air. So there's not a hard pressure weight going in over through behind it. Um and so what ends up happening is that little bit of resistance, that force is still causing it to turn a little bit and it bites in. Now, if it hits something like a tendon, anything like that that's there within his neck, we're also going to get more of a variable and more of a yacht. So, it's really hard to know why the projectile performed the way it did. Even when we can lay it out and say, you know, here is the entire wound trace. This is what happened. Um, we we I'm with you on this. We need the ammunition. We need to know what projectile it is. We need to know all of those different variables before we can make an assessment and say absolutely this could not have been. Now, the one thing that I look at, >> I'll tell you one thing that I look at that I say this is weird is reading over his warrantless affidavit. um his affidavit for arrest, right? The on paper what they found probable cause to charge this guy in. Last time I checked, he lives how far away? About three hours, three, four hours away. And he ends up showing up to this location. They have him walking across being caught on camera and in his affidavit they state that they can see that he is walking with a odd limp to his leg basically where he can't bend his knee because he's got the rifle being shoved down his pant leg. I'm very curious how it is that that gentleman because he wouldn't have known the setup beforehand. He wouldn't have had the schematics for where Charlie Kirk would have been or anything like that. And I highly doubt he was as familiar with the campus as he should have been. And my question is, how did he know to go to that exact location, be able to break out the rifle, crawl out on the roof, and he would be in a perfect position to be able to see Charlie Kirk? Before you answer that, Chris actual question. Chris, you've done a great analysis on this as well, including some photos um from the pictures of of him walking up and bending his knees, which is, you know, kind of questions on how a rifle could fit in there. One last question on the on the cartridge cartridge first. U Matt is you you talked about early on, you said if it was engraved or if it's an older cartridge from the grandfather, that could also weaken um the cartridge allowing it to bounce off the vertebrae and not come out of the neck. Is that is that correct? You could actually have a complete and total failure of the chamber depending on depending on how old the the rifle is, what damage is done to the chamber beforehand. I mean, there's a lot of different variables that go into it, but yeah, you could have a gas leak which would cause a lower muzzle velocity just based on that.

>> Um, Chris, on on Matt's question, can you go through because you've done a great uh deep dive into that into where the rifle was when he was walking up the stage. We got the footage, not footage, what photos of of Tyler walking up the stairs or the gentleman walking up the stairs. And then you've also gone through on him jumping off the roof. So I'd love to give you the mic again for a while uh Chris to break that down for us because there's some good questions there as well.

>> Well, I mean the question is how how did he get a rifle up up on the roof here? Um and so they released these in this day and age of having HD, you know, cameras everywhere that they release these potato cam footage things. It's just it's it's annoying. And they don't show us uh the video itself so we could actually assess his movements for ourselves. But what we can see here very clearly is these are the video stills they gave us and we can see at least nope there's no no at least no assembled gun down that pant leg. But given how tight it is, I'd be hardressed to say you have either the stock or the separated barrel and and um scope component that leg can you expand Chris's screen so we can see what he's showing. There you go. Thank you. Yeah. Go ahead, Chris.

>> Yeah. So So that's his left leg. Doesn't look like there's anything down that. Um his right leg is bent. There is a bulge in his pocket, but that's where it looks consistent with a cell phone outline. But again, you know, if you're thinking about this mouser, not, you know, model 98, um, you're going to be taking off. It doesn't break cleanly in half. If you were going to disassemble it at all, it's going to be the bolt will come off. The whole barrel assembly, including the action and the trigger, is going to come out as a single unit. The scope will still be attached to that. And then you'll have the whole stock frame, which is still pretty long. So, I can't account for I mean the right leg is bent, left leg is bent and you know the idea that you could fit that in a medium pack like this. It just doesn't work. The geometry is all wrong. So, they haven't shown us anything definitive to say how he got a gun up to the roof. I mean, this is basically the size of that gun sort of roughly scaled.

>> Um, you know, and it doesn't it's not a takedown model. It doesn't have a button you push. It doesn't have any clear, you know, hinge pins so that it's a breakaway model. If he took this thing apart, he would have had to reassemble it. And I'll let Matt appine in this, but I've done a lot of shooting in my day. And if I ever reassembled any of my boltaction rifles, I'd have to rezero them. I don't know how much, but it's um it's it's pretty dodgy when you take these things and and um put them off, put them back together as well. I mean, this is his booking photo here. This is really hard. I wish we had something better to work with. This person looks like, but I can't be sure that they have a fold in their ear there. He doesn't have a fold in his ear. So, I'm not 100% confident that, you know, they said, "Oh, this is the suspect, and we've got his DNA. It must be Tyler Robinson." If I was his defense lawyer, I'd be saying, "This is not positive proof of anything at this stage." Um, as well, the way that this guy is walking, he's got very square shoulders here in all of these things. And, and Tyler um Robinson always has slumped shoulders, take it for what it's worth, but he does have what appear to be similar sunglasses to these. The jeans are this kind of look the same. The the shoes look the same. So, we've got that stuff, but man, there are cameras everywhere. And so, uh, we could we have some more pictures, please? That would be really helpful, particularly moving pictures because then we could see his gate and, uh, this limp that they're talking about. But the, as Matt said, the story they're going with is somebody was tracked. They saw him um, come onto the roof. He he had this limp, but then after he went out of frame of a video of a camera for a while, he didn't have the limp anymore. And then they found a screwdriver. They said they had DNA on and then a towel, but weirdly they haven't told us they found DNA on the gun, which is maybe an oversight at this point, but that would that would be helpful.

>> They did. I They They did in the I believe Yeah, I believe they actually said they found it on the trigger itself. They So, they touched on it on the firearm. It's in the affidavit. I'm pretty sure I read that.

>> Okay. Um and and then and then there's roof guy here. And so, the next thing I'm trying to figure out is exactly when the shot was taken. Um by seconds. It actually matters a lot. And so according to MSN, they were tracking a live feed. They placed it at 1223 and 34 seconds. I don't think that can be quite right because the FBI releases this video of this figure running across the roof from the shooter's position and it starts at 12334. So why they didn't include the earlier video to show this person getting into position, taking the shot, and then from there um you know, you decide. But um this is the spot. This is the spot we saw before with the shooter's position. We can identify it here by this vent thing. Sort of align ourselves. So at 12:234, he's already taken a shot allegedly stood up, gathered the gun and I guess a a towel or whatever and made it to past this thing maybe to about here. So uh that's going to be at least a few seconds of of time is going to have to pass. And so when they gave us this, this is the video that they showed us here. They zoom in. You can see the figure running over here. You can actually see a little bit. This is

An all-glass roof window here. You can see Tut right there. Comes around the side. Um, he has a shadow. Doesn't have a shadow on the white part. So this camera's either really overblooming. We don't know. Puts down something. Jumps down. This is a pretty good jump right here. Probably looks like 10 ft-ish. Um, obviously bends both knees, picks something up. Can't quite tell what it is. And so that's all we really have to go on. I can't either rule in or out that there's a gun in this, in this picture. I can sort of see how there isn't. I could sort of see how many there is. It's not obvious. Um, but we don't have any any positive proof here that there is a rifle in this, uh, this video at all. I, I don't know what else to do with that.

Um, and there are some other oddities in here. Like people have noticed, like this person is walking and then for some reason they don't come out the backside here. So I guess there must be a, a walkway that goes that way. Don't know. Kind of a mystery. But at this point, I don't think there's a lot we can say from this, really. Um, except there's a guy here. He seems to have a backpack on. I, I think I could sort of make that claim, but beyond that, I, I don't have a lot to go on here. And, uh, no, there aren't other people sort of spilling out, coming, you know, running away from anything. Everybody looks pretty calm in this photo. So, you know, I, I don't know what more we can really say about that.

>> So, you've got a few questions here. I'll focus on the main one. So, obviously, um, I only found out a few days ago. Someone told me, I'm not sure how accurate this is, but the best way to tell a difference between people, uh, is to look at their ear. By the way, KK, if you can kind of zoom in so we can see all see each other again. Um, and it's just looking at their ear. And then what you're saying, Chris, is that in the footage, the ear does not, um, is not, is a bit different to the one we've seen of, of photos of Tyler, old photos of Tyler. So, be point number one. Point number two, um, we see a shadow when he's running on top of the roof and then the shadow disappears when he jumps on a different surface. I, I know you've talked about that in your latest video that that could be a distortion of the camera. And I've got an explanation here. Some experts saying that sometimes the camera, so shadow naturally distort with angle shifts and during the jump, >> a rapid action the shadow might blur or vanish due to motion artifact or compression. I'm not technical enough to understand it. Um, now the last one, the fascinating one is where that rifle is because when he's going up the stairs, you cannot see the rifle. We don't have videos of the rifle. Um, they, they talk about a limp being there, but obviously we can't tell based on the photos and the knee is bent. Now, I have never held a rifle that size. So, I'd love to get Chris, you've given us your thoughts and Matt's thoughts as well. Is it could that rifle really be under his pants and shirt or partly under both and, and, uh, Tyler be able to bend his knee as he did in that footage? And obviously the last thing is that that person in the footage that Chris, I think what you're implying is that the footage might have been edited because that person along with the shadow, that person's kind of walking and then there's a tree and it suddenly disappears. So, what are the odds? There's a walkway right behind that tree. Um, so that they're kind of the questions being asked. For me, the most fascinating one is where is that rifle? And last point, when he's jumping off the roof, he's holding something. It is very pixelated, so we can't tell. But from what I've seen as well, Chris, I'd agree with you, is it doesn't look like there's a rifle under the towel, but it's also too pixelated to know for sure. So, it's just really tough. And we're hoping once the investigation is done, we'll be able to get more footage. But Matt, what are your thoughts on on Chris first? Did I miss any points from what you said? And there's a lot of cameras, so we should really see hopefully after the investigation is done, we should see more footage and photos. But Matt, what do you think?

>> Yeah, I'm with Chris. I don't, I don't see where you're fitting that rifle in there. I honestly, I don't. Um, and the other thing you got to take into account as well is the fact that he is moving and he's walking with that rifle. The only plausible explanation I could see, and I would have to have that specific rifle because people end up modifying their own. So, even if I know the overall length of it, is it possible that he cut the stock down in order to make, like, who knows? But no, because we have the, like the after photo, right? But what is the overall length of that rifle? Be really nice to know. The only possibility that I could see to where it is quasi plausible is if he had it on his back, tucked in, like underneath his back, underneath his backpack, but even then, it just doesn't jive. Like he said, you know, you're seeing both of his legs bend, there's all sorts of issues with that. And then when it goes into mobility with the pants, I mean, as his right leg's bent, for example, you would be able to see it protruding at a certain location on his pants. You don't see it. Um, the only possible explanation that I can have for that is that that rifle was pre-positioned at some period in time and that he then was able to pick it up off the property and because he knew he couldn't walk all the way across and then stash it like that as he was moving into position finally. So that there's always again, different variables that go into it. I'm not saying the FBI is lying. What I'm saying is I'm, I'm with you, Chris, which is there's so many different people that are talking about this and it hasn't died yet. Why haven't you released some of this information which would clarify that?

>> Because that is it? Because is it because the case is ongoing and there's an investigation as well that hasn't been closed?

>> Okay. So that would, would that explain what? But so the question would become a lot more alarming if nothing is released once the investigation is done and Tyler is, um, >> likely found guilty. Correct.

>> Right. Yeah.

>> I would, I would agree with that. There's a, there's a guy, um, that had made a Twitter post, uh, the day before and ended up sharing it, um, the same day within hours of when Charlie Kirk got shot, that said he was attending school there and he said something very big was going to happen the next day, um, and basically alleging towards something bad, right, towards this, towards Charlie. Um, when the shooting happened, he ended up taking it down and then people ended up sharing screenshots of it, you know, and asking, "Hey, man, what, what the heck's going on here?" And he's like, "Oh, no. I didn't do that at all. I didn't shoot him. I didn't do anything. I swear, guys." Then he ended up blocking his account. He changed his profile picture. Started doing all sorts of stuff. And I don't want to dime this individual out just in case number one, it is part of the active ongoing investigation. And number two, he actually did take part in it or knew about it. But that goes back on the same questions that I had, which is how did this guy know to move to that exact location? You know, if I'm unfamiliar with that, that campus to that degree, how do I know how, how to walk between point A and B in order to get up to one rooftop, let alone multiple, let alone go into that one position on the first time, crawl into space, and take the shot? Couldn't, couldn't he explain prior to the to the event?

>> And place?

>> Sure, he absolutely could have, Mario, but but again, he would have to know the setup for where Charlie's going to be in order to figure all that stuff out.

>> And he's also, he's also, um, you know, exposing himself by doing a reconnaissance like that. Going over there and walking on rooftops is something that's going to draw attention of campus, you know, police and security is going to get caught on camera, right? And they would be able to release some of that stuff beforehand. Not only did he was he there this day, but we also caught him two days before, you know, conducting recon on these rooftops to go check out, you know, his different shooting positions. I'm unaware of any of that. Um, and, you know, the, the, the troubling part with me is there was also a man that was arrested in the parking lot with an airsoft rifle. Um, that is not just for me, but that's also from contacts, um, that were on the ground that day in law enforcement. And I'm going to leave it very general. U, but there was a man that had an airsoft rifle. Why did that guy have an airsoft rifle? Uh, what was he doing there? Why was that crazy guy screaming that, um, he was basically distraction? He wasn't the shooter. So I think that there was a much larger plot at at scheme here.

>> Okay.

>> I would agree with that. The George the George Zin thing was completely weird where he takes his hat off within, within two seconds of the shooting and he's waving it around saying, "It was me. It was me." And now all attention sort of draws that way. And so my first instinct is, I maybe we should look that way, right? But it, it felt, who, that was so odd. Who, who just stands up within a, like calculates, "Oh, I'm I need to, I need to, you know, create a, a getaway for whoever this might have been."

>> Well, didn't he state that the reason he did that was because he was trying to to bring spirit to everybody because he just witnessed something horrible? It was just some horrible excuse.

>> Um,

>> Wasn't he? Isn't there also, uh, isn't there also, um, charges for, uh, child porn, pornography? Is that him? That same guy?

>> Good question. Yes, he was charged with child porn after that. Um,

>> After that, which I think I think I learned that from Candace Owens who she claims that was used to blackmail him and he's part of some larger conspiracy.

>> Um, I've also heard, and this one I haven't looked into him too much because I've just been mainly watching your content. Curious is that the theories that he's done this before at previous events claiming he was responsible. Have any of you read about that at all?

>> Well, uh, George Zinn was in a featured in a 9/11 video because he was there and, um, you know, recounted his firsthand experience allegedly of of having witnessed the whole thing and seeing the second plane go in and, uh, all, all the trauma around that. So, he's sort of our, um, Forest Gump of our modern day. He's just at all the big events.

>> Now, one last thing, Matt, I want to ask you, going back to the to the big question I have is where is that rifle? Is that in the second piece of the footage because you've talked about the first one, the three photos and maybe Chris, you can open those photos again if you don't mind. The, the one of him going up the stairs, um, so we can go through them. Um, and again, guys, I recommend everyone watches Chris's videos where he breaks them down into even more detail. In those photos, could the rifle and when Chris, you open it up now. Could the rifle be because the photo shows you can see the, the, the first photo, the second photo, and the third photo show his front, but they don't show his back when he's bending his knee. So, could he be because we're not seeing the rifle show through his jeans? Could the rifle, as you said, be behind him, but then the question would be, "All right, why isn't it showing in the first photo? In the first photo, he's not really bending his knees. So, could it be actually protruding out, but we don't see it?" Cuz it's in his back and kind of the backpack is keeping it close to his body. And Chris, I'd love to get your thoughts on that question.

>> Well, it's again, we're squinting at things. I don't see any, I wouldn't see the buttstock. I would imagine if you were going to carry it on your back, you would have the butt up and the and the barrel down. Just guessing because the barrels are the stock is going to be harder to fit down your pants.

>> Um, we don't see it here. So, it would have to be basically from the backpack lower. It would have to go all the way down here. Um, can we make a claim around that? Not really. They had, um, one other set of photos they released and I don't know where these come from, but here again, um, I'm can't make a case for any, I can't see anything up front. This is clearly a big square thing. That's not a >> a rifle stock or anything like that. There's there's no way that that's the, the stock here and the barrels pointing up here because it would be poking out up here.

>> I can't, I can't really make a case for a rifle here. I'm sorry. And, um, the other thing we could do though is is talk about what happened after the shot got taken because we had this one video from the Hall of Flags. This person's inside, Char, all these people are facing Charlie's tent would be right about here, but they're shooting this from inside and then it, it's really critical.

[Music]

>> So, um, this is exactly where this, this person was. I could identify where they were. So, we're seeing basically their cameras pointed in this field of view. You can see from here to here, but you can't quite see this spot yet. And so, um, let me see if >> I'll show you.

>> That's the thing in full view, in in full frame. But now, let's, um, now let's slow it down a little bit. You can see the guy on the roof there. I had my video guy stabilize that. Did you see that little black dot moving across there?

>> Yeah. So, this is where it gets kind of interesting. Um, because if you watch a couple things, how the crowd reacts in a wave and the roof guy and when the crowd reacts, some people react very slowly. Some are going to react instantly to a shot like that. And so, you can already see that at the time that this is being taken, people are still reacting and Roof Guy is already up and running. Um, so that tells us that he can't possibly have had time to disassemble the rifle because he's up and running within a second of the shot being taken. Um, and so he has to be carrying a full, a full, a full rifle at that point in time. Um, so we can't be accounting for a disassembled rifle. He's already up. You can see him bent over. He is tucking. He's moving within, you know, two seconds. He's out of frame on this whole thing. So I think that gives us a little bit more to work with. Um, you know,

>> And the roof guy, Chris, the roof guy is in the in Tyler's position. That's where Tyler Robinson's allegedly positioned, right?

>> Okay.

>> Yep. Yep. Yeah. Sorry. So, that, that, that actually, um, tracks perfectly. This is the little promontory. This is the, the Losi building. He's just stood up. This is the very first time we can see him. I think he's bent over, but I'm squinting at at, you know, uh, blobby figures. But he does seem to straighten up and and run. And we see him for a few frames, but this is exactly where we would have expected, um, the shooter position to have been, the alleged shooter position. So, yeah, that's what we have to work with there.

>> Relatively quickly. Yeah. What do you think, Matt?

>> Yeah, I'm going to complete and totally agree. It's, you know, I, I, I said the only maybe reasonable explanation I could see for why it's not, you know, visible through the side of his pants and talking about the rifle being stuck in there, um, is it's on his backside. But I also don't see, um, at all how the rifle could be on his backside because the backpack, everything that Chris pointed out. So, I just want to make sure I'm perfectly clear here. I am in agreement with Chris on this. I do not see a rifle on him at that point in time.

>> Yeah. Apparently, there's an expert. There was a theory as well, Matt, and sorry to interrupt. There's a theory that, um, some expert early on, a day after the shooting or two days afterwards, that talked on TV about the gun being disassembled relatively quickly. But Chris, you've gone through the photos. There doesn't seem to be any indications that this gun can be disassembled. And the people that were disassembling it on TikTok and Matt, you're an expert as well. You're kind of implying the same things that it's really not possible to disassemble it that quickly. And if you link that, you know, the fastest one on TikTok, Chris, I think you said was like 50 seconds. And then if you link that to the video we've seen, Chris, of you, you've just played, it's not possible because the gentleman who's meant to be Tyler Robinson got up and ran as soon as he took the shot, very quickly. Um, so there's no time to really disassemble it.

>> Yeah. Nor does it make sense to do it right there on the rooftop either. If you really put yourself in his shoes, my, my, my goal is to get out of there and try to survive at that point in time, right? To try to get out and try to get away. You've already just fired off a gunshot. People are generally going to be looking for you. They know you're going to be there. You're not going to want to sit there and and, you know, play around with a rifle and try to unscrew it forever.

>> It's, it's just not plausible. So, so to that point, um, Mario, you made, uh, Matt, I'd love to get both of your opinion on this because because this really bothered me, which, and listen, this may not be the actual rifle. This is just what the New York Post reported first and everybody's been pushing this around. I've reverse image searched it. I can't find that this is a stock photo that's been repurposed. So, I'm going to have to take it at face value that this is the the actual gun. Um, Matt, what I see here is that this is really far back of the rings. I mean, this scope is so far back. Um, I have to wonder if it's if it didn't get jarred or bounced or like it was not completely tight and when he dropped it off the roof, if that's what happened, it got jarred. But it also just by eye doesn't actually look completely orthogonal and set proper. Um, I don't know. But that was the rifle that we we have to work with here. And it just looks completely like somebody's changed probably the old Woodstock, put a composite stock on here, but otherwise it's a pretty old, you know, model 98.

>> And then we had this guy, right, saying this >> market access.

>> Let's go up to here.

>> And it doesn't expel the cartridge either, which I learned. Uh, so he took that cartridge with him and it was found inside the gun according to some reports along with some others in a magazine. How quickly, uh, if it is broken down, because it doesn't look like he's jumping with a long rifle, um, tucked in his leg. It looks like it's got to be in that backpack. So, how quickly could he break it down if he needed to break it down?

>> A second or two.

>> What?

>> Literally just push a button and wrap it around. Push another button, wrap it back. Uh, they're designed to be able to be put into full length mode or compact mode extremely quickly. Um,

>> I don't mean to laugh at that guy, but no.

>> Yeah.

>> This is, this is the guy who's the expert witness for the Rust shooting. He's, he's, >> Lord, he's all over. He's a movie guy. He's he's a Hollywood guy. He's an expert witness for all the majors. So, this is the guy they bring on.

>> And

>> I hope they don't bring him in for defense. Holy cow. There's a button. A button you push. Not on that stock, sir. No, there's not.

>> No.

>> So, Matt, you agree that the gun cannot be disassembled that quickly? Because that won't be an explanation because, yeah, like, I'm just trying to find an explanation of why the gun does not show in those photos of Tyler going up the stairs. And when he's jumping off the roof, he's got that towel, but doesn't seem like there's a rifle under it, even though it's pixelated.

>> So, the only explanation I can give for why it's not on him as he's going up the stairs is because it was pre-positioned and he had help. That way, he didn't draw extra attention as he's walking across campus. As he was able to recover it, maybe tuck it in his pants later on and then move into position, right? Um, as far as him going off the roof, we could be talking about the same camera quality and everything else with the pixels and and the light and all of those things that I really don't understand even though I've been working with cameras for years now. Um, and when we start talking about the surveillance footage, which is something else I wanted to point out, uh, Chris, when you mentioned the timestamps that was on the, uh, CCTV, I can't tell you the amount of CCTV footage I've looked at in law enforcement that has the incorrect times on it. It is probably one of the most frustrating things, uh, for law enforcement officers in general is to try to find the exact moment in time and you're searching through footage at the wrong date and time because nothing is properly labeled.

>> So that's a, that's a very reasonable explanation. Um,

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, that that wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, particularly after, uh, the Epstein, uh, jailhouse footage. Um,

>> Right.

>> You know,

>> Well, there's, you know, there's one,

>> Mario, can I point out one other thing, too, um, as well about just the gunshot in general?

>> If we, if we go back and we listen to like the different witness statements, and Chris, you could probably vouch for this. Did you, Chris, did you, or, and Mario, did you guys hear the witness statements that were saying that it almost seemed like it was suppressed shot, suppressed, like it was too quiet?

>> You guys remember hearing that? People stating that?

>> No, I, I've heard all kinds of witness statements, and of course, those are the least reliable. Um, some people said it, it was just one explosion. It was right near the stage. And

>> Yeah, and also Chris, you've pointed, you've pointed out witnesses pointing in a different direction as well. You've had photos of these as well, but I continue with yours, >> Matt.

>> Yeah. So, there's witnesses that have stated that it almost seems suppressed or it was too quiet to be a 306 from that close up. Um, and as Chris stated, eyewitness statements are some of the most unreliable because they're just not expecting it. And you have this significant event that happens and then it's very traumatic for them. They're not used to seeing things like that and so they're just unreliable when it comes out. But there is people that have stated that and, um, when we start talking about, um, you know, a reduced muzzle velocity, that 100% goes into it if you end up having, you know, powder that has been, um, damaged over time with water, oil, etc. that could have potentially leaked in there and caused a lower burn rate so that it didn't all burn by the time it ended up getting out. Not all powder ends up burning anyways by the time it ends up leaving the barrel, most of the time depending on the barrel length. But, um, you know, there's several different things that we can look at that accounts for that as well. Just wanted to make sure I remember put that in there.

>> And, and Chris, you want to also comment on the, the photos you have of of witnesses pointing at a different direction. You've analyzed the direction as well. Do you have that in your slides? Not sure if you've seen that, Matt.

>> Yeah, let me get to that in just a second because I have this in front of me and, and this will to help clear up one thing. So what we're looking at here, these are audio, um, sonograms. And so these are from recordings from the shooting. The shooting was, uh, this, these are all pulled from this tape that was right over here, just to Charlie's left. This is an auditory nightmare because this whole place is just like an echo chamber. But what we're seeing here is the classic. This is the snick. This is the supersonic round coming in hot. And this is, uh, the report from the gun, but it's a double report for some reason. So I'm guessing there's a very close surface it bounced off of.

>> Yep.

>> And then we're seeing the echoes. This is the snick repeated again. Snick. Echo. Snick. Another echo. So, it's bouncing, bouncing around. So, for an eyewitness, and this is all happening in in 200 milliseconds. So, it's obviously people are going to hear all, all kinds of crazy stuff and they're all going to be right, but it's, um, depending on where they stood, they're going to hear different things, but this does give us at least some information, which is with this 170 millisecond delay, as soon as we know the velocity of the cartridge, I can begin to draw circles on a map and tell you what's in the realm of possible for shooting positions because this part is just lockdown science. The supersonic round travels at X feet per second. It's ahead of the report of the gun because the gun is traveling at sonic speed, at the speed of sound. And so the, the round comes over and it makes that crack. And then the boom is the next part. So this at least tells us, no, it wasn't an exploding mic because we would just have one sound signature and it would come from the stage and that would be that. No, it wasn't a, a suppressed round because this thing is, this is a supersonic round. Always leave, um, big explosive sounds. They make a lot of noise. Uh, there could have been suppressed rounds on top of that, but now we got to get really esoteric and and, you know, we don't have data for that. But there was at least one hot round. It came down range and where this recording was taken, there was 170 millisecond delay. It's crack, thump, the CT delay. That's again, I don't, I can't say a whole lot. I've, I've analyzed as many as I've got. I would make the plea now that if anybody actually has the original recordings off of these things, I need original recordings, not copies of recordings. And we need in particular the metadata off of these things so that we can see exactly when when that incident was recorded. So now we can begin to get a proper timeline and then we can begin to make other statements about things. But without that, we, we really have very poor data. Given I can count in some of these, I can count 30 phones held up at the time of the shooting in in just a single frame and we have five key recordings to work with right now. It's not enough. I know there's more out there. Um, and I wish we had more of that data, but at least this tells us what we're dealing with and, and we have all of that that crack, thump stuff going on there. Um, which tells us stuff. You know, Chris, if you have an original, like 4K recording from, and we know where that particular person was standing and it actually shows the impact of the round, I mean, light obviously travels ridiculously fast and is a variable at 160 or 140 meters that we don't have to account for. And so, if we look and we say, okay, we've got this original recording, we know approximately where this person was at. Um, what we can do is we can say that when the projectile ends up impacting into Charlie's neck in that frame and then we could calculate the time in which it takes to hear that crack and we could estimate the muzzle velocity of that projectile that ends up coming out and we could take that estimated muzzle velocity and then apply it to a low and a high grain and we can say this is essentially how that projectile should be performing and then we would be able to rule out whether or not that position is or is not, um, you know, actually viable.

>> So to get that, you'll need the original recording with the metadata and you'll need the image of the cartridge so you know what type of cartridge it is. Is that these other two?

>> Well, the, the very best recordings are going to be those that were taken off of Charlie's lapel mic because that's going to be the actual perfect frame of reference. It's going to tell you, it's going to give you the most precise data you could have. So whatever TPUSA had, I know they had 4K recordings and they had the mics, they had this mic, I assume it's all recorded. If we had those, um, those would be really helpful. The reason we have a lot of them that are not helpful is the people were just outside in front of Charlie's area and he's holding a mic and so actually we're hearing, um, the, it just gets totally distorted because that first crack comes out the, comes out the, uh, amplified speakers, messes everything up.

>> Yep. That's why I had to use somebody from the side to to get what I thought was a decent crack, thump.

>> Or getting the recording directly from TPUSA, which I'd assume that they would, would they release it without the investigation while the investigation is ongoing or is that, would that play part of the investigation as well?

>> So technically it's their property. They can do with it what they want, but if they release it, it could jeopardize the investigation. So they'd likely be asked by law enforcement not to unless

>> Unless there's only one copy of it and law enforcement grabbed it because it's evidence and hasn't released it back to TPUSA yet. They do have,

>> But with the data that we have, Chris, you've said that the the whole mic theory, there's other reasons why the mic theory. Some people have a theory that there's the mic either exploded. There was an exploding mic and they kind of linked it to the Israeli, um, what they did to his, uh, the exploding, um, what they called the, the devices, the walkie-talkie devices, the pagers. Yeah. And then

>> Yeah. Well, it did walkie-talkies, too.

>> Yeah. Oh, there you go. And then the other theory was that a bullet came out of the microphone, which I think is just technically impossible. Chris, you've talked about those two things.

>> Yeah. No. So, so first off, um, it's gruesome, but if you want to, uh, there's lots of photos of what happened after the Heisbola pager bombings, right? And they're explosions. And so, they had a few grams of C4. It's a high explosive. High explosives do a couple things. They explode in all directions, right? Even if you can shape the charge, that just sends some of it, more of it in one direction. Newton's law of, uh, equal and opposite reaction applied. So it explodes in all directions and it's very hot. They burn stuff. If Charlie had an exploding thing on his shirt, there would be a big old hole there. It'd probably be burnt and it would be, uh, very, very messy and there would actually be, you know, a lot of damage in that spot. It's, I'm not aware of anything. People have hypothesized, oh, there could have been a little gun in there, but again, Newton's law, right? If it's going to throw something this way, something's going that way. And that's just how that works. And we see the lapel mic is still on there two frames into the event after he's shot. So, it can't be that. The auditory data is inconsistent with that. So, there's really nothing consistent with any of that at this point.

>> I was going to say I'm holding this up for a reason. I actually am holding this for today's show for a very reason. This is actually a 22 LR. Um, it's a pen gun. It's made after the OSS, uh, the Office of Strategic Services from World War II. This is a 22 caliber cartridge, right? Like this is a actual firearm what I'm holding in my hands. And when you fire this thing, and the barrel length on it, to be perfectly clear, is probably about the size of his microphone. When you fire this in your hand, and again, it's a 22 long rifle. It pushes back and dents in your hand. It doesn't feel good because there's not a heck of a lot of weight to the back side of this sucker, right? And so that lapel mic absolutely would have been thrown in the exact opposite direction that that projectile was coming out of. And you're absolutely right. If it did explode, we would have seen a lot of things in a lot of different directions, namely on his shirt. Um, and we don't see that.

>> Right.

>> Another theory I saw, and I haven't gone too deep into those theories. Again, Chris, you're the only content that I've really gone into. I've watched a couple of others, but they were just just too out there and they didn't get as technical as you did. Yeah. Another one I I saw very briefly early on is that, um, people were talking about someone shooting from the side with a handgun. Um, but I'm guessing based on everything you've said that's also highly unlikely. Have you seen that the theory as well?

>> Yeah. And, and the problem is is that, um, I, I'm going to pull it up here in a second, is that we, we have pretty strong evidence for what we call a a cavitation event where, you know, Matt was talking about it when you first, when a bullet comes in and dumping its energy into a body into gel or something, you see this expansion because all that energy has to go somewhere and of course fluids don't compress. So what you get is you get this big sort of like blob that happens. It's very quick because, you know, fluids compress and decompress very, very rapidly. They don't like being in that state. So, it's about a thousandth of a second. And we had two separate video frames, one from the side, one from the front, where I'm pretty sure you can see that event. Here's the thing. Pistols don't have enough energy to cause that. Um, not unless we're talking something really big, you know, Castle 454, Desert Eagle 50 cal, you know, 44 mag. I mean, something big. But, man, those things make a lot of noise when they go off. Um, and nobody would mistake that one of those went off nearby. There's there's no like secret little like.

>> So that pressure essentially, that pressure that we've seen, you've got photos of that where you show the t-shirt gun and and even necklace pushing up and that shows that it was a high velocity rifle. Correct.

>> It's the, it's the thing that's most consistent with that. I can't find another explanation for that, um, at this point in time that really makes sense. So, um, this was, this was that that event that we saw here. Um, these are two separate frames taken from a camera that was, uh, just off to Charlie's right. It was pretty far back, so it's a little grainy, but, um, otherwise pretty good shape. Top frame, it's the frame, one frame, 30 frames per second before whatever happened happened. And this next one is the first frame afterwards. And I've taken this little blue line here and circled his the edge of his, uh, of the flesh we can see. And then I just took it and just moved it down here. So it's exactly the same size. It's in exactly the same position. It's just been dropped down. I hooked it and and attached it to his ear here and here. So we had a, a strict frame of reference. And what you can clearly see is that his neck is now vastly larger, vastly larger in all directions. This is part of why I think that that entrance wound came to look more like an exit wound because some blowback came back out that because there was nowhere else to go. But this speaks to a really high pressure event. And the other thing we can get from this though is that, um, if it's true what we heard from other people so far and again, we don't have the autopsy report. If it's true that his C2 through C6 vertebrae are wrecked, I'm going to really struggle with that because what we don't see is his head snapping backwards here appreciably. What we see is him sort of going down as if he's been pushed hard and his head snaps forward a little bit because of that. And that's really consistent with a round putting all of its energy mostly down into his body cavity. And that's why his t-shirt looks like it's, I understand why people thought, oh, it must have been an explosion because look how his t-shirt's puffed up. Maybe you even squint at it and you think you see there's some separation. Like the t-shirt is now is now up in a way. And my explanation for that is that it probably is because the chest expanded and his neck expanded very rapidly and then it shrank back really quickly. But the t-shirt is still moving in that direction because it's not, it's going at a much slower pace. And indeed, if we followed the rest of these frames out, what we would see is we would see a whole lot of things traveling up this direction. His, it looks appears from the side that a chain he's wearing with a cross on it. You can see the chain whip up around his neck, I believe. But it looks like the cross pendant pulls a lot of his shirt up like so. We have to account for something that caused a lot of force to rip a chain around his neck and throw a lot of things in this direction. And my explanation for that is probably you had more cavitation on this side where the wound was than on this side. So it, it swelled more on this side and it pulled everything that direction. So if we want to just see what that looks like, I just, I just took those same two frames and it's just before and after. And it's before and after. Look at all that swelling. You can just easier to appreciate looking at this over and over again. But his head doesn't move all that much forwards, backwards, up, down. So really what's happening is is really constrained down here. Um, even though he was struck right about there. My explanation for that is that this round has to be traveling down into his body. Somehow it had to has to take a turn and get down in there. Um, and it, it dumped all of its energy in there. And that would have been instantly lethal. As far as I'm concerned.

>> For that to make sense. So you mean, you mean that it was a high-powered rifle from a higher position than what we have for Tyler Robinson?

>> It's easier to make the physics work that way. Absolutely. Um, because Matt, I hear you, but I, I just, I can't, it takes to So I calculated what it would take to take 2,000 foot-pounds of force. So I just went low. What would it take for that to turn 30 degrees? And the answer is it would take 12,000 pounds of resisting force or a steel plate or a bone or something that has resistive force, but it would take about 12,000 pounds of of energy to resist that and turn it in the other direction. I just, I can't make a case for that. This is the softest part of the human body. There's, it's the softest part.

>> Yeah. And I mean, my experience from shooting people and watching people get shot and seeing people get shot and treating wounds in combat is completely totally different than that, you know, and that's okay for us to have a difference of opinion on that. Um, I'm just saying that my first world experience in actually dealing with that is that is plausible. The, the other explanation that we look at that goes into, um, that shirt lifting up is when that projectile is flying through the air, it's actually displacing air. Uh, Chris, I know you've done a lot of shooting. Have you done long-range shooting before and actually looked through a spotting scope and spotted the trace?

>> Yeah. Yeah. You can see what you're saying.

>> Right. What is that that we're seeing that that vapor trail as that projectile is going through the air? That's the air displacing, right? So that's that air being displaced and a lot of the moisture in the air as it's going out. Uh, point I'm trying to make here is as those as that projectile is flying through the air, it's displacing air as it goes. Um, and that's moving in a forward momentum pattern and outward as well. So when that projectile goes and it hits into his neck and it goes in there, you actually have all of that air movement and energy that's also going in there as well. So some of what we're actually seeing going out from underneath his shirt and you can go back and and put it back up and look and analyze it from that direction as well. Um, and if you're spotting enough of these projectiles going into targets and and things like that over time, you actually sometimes actually end up spotting that air actually displacing around the body or around the target, um, as they're going in there as well. Um, so there is a, a portion of that I believe that could be attributed to it as well. What I can attribute to that is like you said, um, the necklace flying all the way around. I don't see it carrying that much force. I've never seen anything of that nature to be able to carry that much force to where it's moving his necklace around. Um, I also, I'm trying to picture in my brain where if that necklace is there and we have that pressure that's going in and it's expanding out and pushing his body outward, how does it get that circular momentum for it to go out versus just in one direction? Um, is the other thing I look at. The other thing is it's not just his body as well. There's a really good 4K video I might have to share with you that's from the front and I, and I hate saying this and I hate doing this because we're talking about human beings and people here as we look at it. Um, but as that, uh, like you said, frame after the projectile enters his body, you actually see the hydrostatic shock actually expanding his face as well. So you see that pressure not only in his shoulders but also going up and into his head. So we know the projectile entered here. So the amount of pressure it's going to take to actually expand and what appeared to be, you know, several inches of his face expanding. I mean, even if we were to take my theory and look at it and say, um, that projectile would be traveling a lot slower as it would would go in and enter, the amount of kinetic energy it would take and the amount of fluids that we're talking about displacing to cause his face to swell up to that extent, uh, you know, his neck to swell up to that extent is back. We're talking about a lot of displacement that's taking place really, really fast. Um, and it's just, it's unreal to me. You know, I've never had that captured on 4K before. I never attempted to. I think sick people do that. People that hold on to those videos. Um.

>> Mhm.

>> So I, I, I, I can't come back and say, "Look, I have this video of a similar thing happening. U but I have seen a lot of things odd happen when it comes to ballistics and bodies." So

>> Yeah, I, I do think it's important to, um, to

Note what that looks like. And and so this is, um, this is the Mitchel family here. Um, this is Lena posted this. And, uh, everybody who's who's a shooter knows who Jerry Mitchel is, but that's what it looks like. This is just a 300 Blackout. I say "just," it has a lot less force than a 306. Um, but still, you can see they did a really good job capturing this cavitation. Here's the bullet first striking, and it's probably already traveled, I don't know, about here. And then you see this cavitation. And again, it could, depending on the human body, it's it's going to be, um, it's just going to depend where how it entered. And I could see it like, really doing different things. And, you know, who knows, right? That's a medical question. You know, like, if if it ended up striking the artery, right, if that projectile ended up striking the artery, displacing the blood to that extent, um, is that enough to actually pressurize that artery and all of the blood vessels and everything in his face in order to cause it to expand to that extent?

I, I, well, I do think we have strong evidence that, um, his heart was mechanically damaged or or or at least disrupted entirely. Because he gets shot and a few frames later, you sort of people see all this blood and they called it spurting, but it's not. If you look at it carefully, it's just draining out. If he was shot in the carotid, we would have seen, you know, these, if you haven't seen it before, it's it's pretty vigorous, and we didn't see that. So either the carotid wasn't hit, but I'm pretty sure it must have been, given what we now think happened in there. So my explanation is, he's shot, the hydrostatic wave actually pushes the blood back up into his his cranium.

If it's going up, it's going down as well. And then it just drains out. And that's what we see. We just see that draining. We don't see the heart, um, mechanically pumping that out at that point in time. Shrapnel hit the heart as the bullet somehow, you know, as Matt says, either ricocheted into the heart, or Chris, you said maybe it was shot from a different angle. So there's two theories on how the heart was hit. It could also just be the hydrostatic pressure itself could have absolutely disrupted it very badly.

Yeah, I was about to ask that. Like, what's the distance between here and and and the average male heart? You know, six, eight inches, something around there, maybe. I, I don't know. I'm not a doctor. But I mean, if it was enough to cause that same distance traveled up to the top of the head, back down into the face, and cause that type of pressure to go out. If it's going up, if it's displacing fluids going up, it's also displacing fluids going down. Is that enough to actually shock the heart and cause that sucker to stop? Um, I agree with you. It wasn't your stereotypical arterial bleeding that you end up seeing. Um, it was not coming out.

And based on what you're saying, that would have been definite instant death. Correct. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Anything that could have, um, pushed, uh, material back up through the brain stem is instant death. Um, because that's that controls everything, um, all of your all of your functions. But he would have been consciously out instantly too, uh, with that kind of pressure.

I appreciate it. Um, was there more questions you guys had? Two things. More more unanswered questions that you have, or more theories that you've heard on the on on the web that you want to dispel as well? We've gone through a lot. Yeah. Yeah, we have. Um, yeah, Chris, um, I did have a question for you, but it is escaping my mind right now.

I have a question for you. Is that is that what what is the? And I know you both try to avoid that because you just you pose questions that we, you know, that are just, you know, the answers that are given or that we see in all the footage is doesn't answer those questions. Um, but I will ask you to kind of speculate one thing. Is that, and Chris, I'll go with you first, is I'm sure you think you haven't mentioned it in your videos, but you have something in your mind. What what are the what could explain what you've seen so far? Is it a second shooter? What is that the position of that shooter? What type of rifle do they use?

Well, look, and I know your your theory could change as you get more, you've said that before. It could change as you receive more evidence, which is which is something I respect tremendously. But based on what you have so far, so best data I have so far, um, that would fit is the a shot coming from a steeper angle from the left would be much easier to explain how that actually transsected and got into his spinal column. Um, and if it's true that he was shot in a way where the the C2 through C6, um, cervical vertebrae were shattered, and then the bullet lodged at T1, I have a big problem now all of a sudden because now we have to account for a bullet coming here. C2 is way up here. It's two inches higher. So now the bullet would have to deflect up and then come back down. And it's, uh, now we're getting into weird territory there. Um, it's much easier to solve that with a different shooting angle. So, I haven't completed this part of the analysis, but I told you that there are few audio recordings that I can trust, and we're starting to draw circles around those, and most of those circles do not include the shooter's position right now. But this is preliminary. So, that's why we've put out a call. The more data we can get, the more recordings the better. If we had the original recordings, best yet, um, because I need to make sure that they haven't been, um, monkeyed with, right? You know, um, because that's that's a big problem here. I, I have to, like, when somebody sends me some evidence, I go through a pretty exhaustive process to find out if I can trust it or not, because there are people out there actively, um, trying to get their narrative all messed up. And I have found that that there's a pattern out there that the more ridiculous a thing is, and the the less it comports with, uh, physics, right? Like you talked about the pen gun, and there's, you know, at least it hurts, you know, it's got a reaction, like the exploding mic. Um, these are all things that are are fairly easy to disprove, and they sort of run against just physics. And I think the job of those kinds of pieces of information is just wear people down. You know, "Oh my god, I don't know what to trust anymore." "I don't know who to believe." You know, "I'm no expert." You know, you get all of that. It just it wears people down. So, I'm cautious. Some people make honest errors. Some people get like dog on a bone onto the wrong, um, ideas and they're unwilling to give them up. But there are also actors out there who are clearly trying to poison the well right now. And that alone is information to me. It tells me that somebody's trying to do that, right? And if the FBI wanted to, they could figure out who those people are. So that's kind of how I piece those those those chunks together. Isn't it odd that, you know, there were all these people in the furry community saying something big happening in the next day? None of their doors got kicked down at 6:00 in the morning. None of them are being questioned at this point. What's going on with his partner, you know, nothing. Apparently, there's just a lot of oddities around this. They've settled on the idea, you know, if you if you read the affidavit, um, for arrest, you know, they said, "Look, we're sure it's this guy and we're going to make the case." Case closed. I mean, it's like you can. Isn't it odd, Matt, to your point, that this kid just magically knew how to get on this roof in this position? And it kind of reminds me of Butler, right? Wasn't it odd that that kid could just sort of scope around for a day or two with a with a drone and then magically get on this roof, which nobody was on? Which my son plays Call of Duty, so I put up the map of Butler and I said, "You have a newbie on the team and he's put your two snipers here. What do you do?" And he said, "Oh, we kick him off the team." What a rube, right? You know, it was like the most illogical place to put two snipers. But how was that roof of of all the roofs left completely undefended? It's just an oddity, right? And they they're not bothering to explain it.

Matthew, they did explain it. They did try to explain. Yeah, it was too big of a slope. And their their dam or their risk assessment said, "No, it's too dangerous. That 1 over 12 pitch was just way too much." Right. Like your driveway. It's it's much. No, I, I, uh, I agree with you on that. And, um, how he was able to move into position, not to mention the explosives that were found inside of his vehicle that were nobody really wants to talk about inside of the bag. The homeless guy on the bike that also had a bag that later when he was interviewed, he didn't have the bag. It was a brand new bag. Definitely jammed.

You're talking about You're talking about the Charlie Kirk assassination. Yeah. Butler. Yeah, we're talking about Butler, PA. Yeah. Um, but yeah, this one, I, I mean, Charlie Kirk, I look at it and I go, "Okay, well, yes, I do believe that the individual had help." I can make an excuse or I can come up in my brain with an explanation why they haven't done anything yet, um, as far as everybody else goes, which is that coordinating element. They might not have probable cause, but they might have enough to know that something's going on. And so they're looking for more information and they're looking for more charges. Are they casting a wider net before they go in and just yank one person out? So they might be just exercising some tactical patience.

Um, are you are you referring to anyone in spec before you ask a question? Are you referring to the? So I think Chris, you hinted at people said a day before something big will happen. You referring to the same people and who are those people? What did they say? Well, there was there was a number of chat boards out there which had sort of, you know, fairly descriptive stuff that said, you know, this big thing is going to happen the next day. And it looked like best guess early stuff. I saw that there must have been six or seven people that that were in on this idea that there's a big thing going to happen the next day. Um, and and so, you know, listen, I to me, a comprehensive any kind of comprehensive investigation, you're going to try everything. You're going to figure out were there any co-conspirators? Did anybody help him get away? Was anybody else involved? You know, who was, uh, talking to him on his phone the day before, the week before? Even there's all kinds of variables that that I don't think are being considered at this point in time. And and here's another tell. So, I talked to a lot of people who are out there investigating this. Nobody's called any of us from any of the major newspapers. Nobody's called us from the FBI. Nobody says, you know, we have anything to add, you know, and maybe we don't, but it's kind of odd to me that that the best information we're getting around this are from citizens investigators who are just looking at stuff and adding things up. We there's doesn't when there's a when there's a legit investigation, you get calls because they they they're seeking information. Nobody's seeking information. And that to me is also a tell. It's suggestive. But often when they have a predetermined conclusion, it tells you that that's the direction this whole thing is going. And somewhere in the chain of command, the orders been given. Don't don't look at no need. You know, you've already found the droids you're looking for, right? They don't they just don't have interest for some reason.

You know, Mario, if you blow me up to the big screen, I'll actually show you guys the post that we're talking about here. Um, I've got it over on mine. This is actually the one in particular, and I'm going to end up, you know, scrolling through this here in just a sec. But there you can just see, uh, this gentleman's name, uh, Omar, where he says, "Let's just say something big will happen tomorrow." And then he ends up having that big smiley dog face. And this is taken after the event, um, where you can see people, you know, tell him the best time to delete this was before you hit post. The second best time is right now. And this is following the event where it went down. Now, he ended up ripping his profile down. So, what I ended up doing was going over and conducting a, uh, isolated Google search for those specific words on his specific profile because he had just deleted it, and it didn't go anywhere. Um, here in this one, you could say Charlie Kirk got shot, bro, but I promise I didn't do it. Um, and then here you can see where he says, "Let's just say something big will happen tomorrow," with the GIF up there on there. Um, and then he, this is the original portion of it, which is, "Charlie Kirk is coming to my college tomorrow, and I really hope somebody evaporates him literally." So he says, "Charlie Kirk is coming to my college tomorrow. I really hope somebody evaporates him literally." And followed by, "Let's just say something big is going to happen tomorrow." And then he doesn't, you know, and then he ends up ripping it down. That's why we believe that there's other people that are involved in this because clearly, you know, other people were aware of this, um, that something was going on. That is somebody that needs to be investigated. That is something that needs to get looked into. I don't know if it has been.

Yeah, exactly. Maybe it is being investigated. We just don't have that information. Hasn't been released to the public yet. Correct. Um, correct. And and the same question to you, Matt. The difficult question to ask, Chris, is what is your theory based on what you're seeing so far? I understand that that theory can change as we get more information.

You know, my theory is that he had help. Uh, my theory is that the only plausible way for him to have actually gotten positioned with that rifle at that point in time was people that were familiar with that campus. Um, people that knew generally speaking where he was at and told him where he was at. So they had, um, the firearm pre-positioned for him, told him which location to move to. Had to move to that location, recover the firearm, and then go up onto the roof. Um, he would have had to give that firearm to somebody that had access to that location beforehand, far beforehand. Um, and that likely would have help. Um, other than that, I can't provide you a better explanation.

Interesting. So, you think Tyler Robinson did take the shot, but there was help? Um, that was involved. I can't see certain at this point, Mario. Just, I mean, that's we've been talking about. You know, my big question is, the only way I could see that particular rifle making that particular shot is if it had a lessened muzzle velocity, and I can come up with some explanations for it. But without all of the facts, I absolutely can't say for certain that what I said is true or what Chris said is true.

Chris, one last question. You did talk about there was another, uh, person that analyzes these things that was talking about some drones that were available in some of the videos. Is that correct? Have you verified that? No. Um, so this happened a lot at Butler too, where where people analyzed what I was able to determine were flies. Flies were pretty common because they would come into frame or birds. Uh, birds, uh, very often look like drones because the frame rate doesn't necessarily, you know, you have a you captured a certain shutter speed, but then the frame rate, it doesn't always capture this very well, the flapping of the wings, and so they kind of can look drone-like. Here's my thing about drones. Unless you get really, you know, um, super sexy with this and we're going like ultra ultra like conspiracy like top-end military stuff, drones are noisy. I can't hear them on any of the, um, videos recordings that I have. They're just noisy. And if you're going to have a drone platform that's going to shoot, I know they have them, but those are big. Those are usually hex copters because you're carrying a pretty heavy gun, you know, six, seven, eight pounds. It's going to have a massive recoil, and you need a stable platform to be at all accurate off of that. So, you're probably talking something pretty pretty hefty within that crack boom. Listen, we're within 200, 250 feet. If that, if you had a big hex copter 250 feet up, unless it's got some kind of sound teden thing that I'm not aware of at this point in time, it would sound like a whole lot of angry bees up there, um, is how I look at it.

Perfect. I appreciate that. Um, because I did see some videos about this, some claims that there were drones there and why don't we have more footage. But gentlemen, I, I appreciate this conversation because there's a lot of questions that you've asked that we still don't have answers to and hopefully we will. But more importantly, that you've just kind of, uh, refuted a lot of these, um, people trying to dirty the well, as you said, Chris, a lot of these, um, theories that just don't make sense. Physics just doesn't add up whatsoever. The exploding mic being one of them. Um, so I really appreciate this conversation. And I think we'll have it again as the investigation continues. Chris, maybe you get more footage and that you post a lot of great content on your channel. And Matt, have you covered this on your channel? I haven't looked at your channel yet.

You know, I haven't covered it on my channel because I don't have enough information to make an assessment one way or the other. Um, and so I've stayed out of it for that particular reason. I think there's enough people dirtying the water. I think his wife has enough problems that she has to deal with on a daily basis and and relive this stuff. Uh, but if given a chance, I again, you know, overlook what Chris had done and it's a very good workup and I don't think there's a a problem coming on here and talking about it. But as far as going into it every single day and digging into all the different factors, I just refuse to do it out of.

Yeah, I think you've done I think you've done a great job going through it today. Uh, gentlemen, it was it was a great conversation. I appreciate it. Thank you. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you both. Thanks, Chris. Thanks.