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Have you ever felt shame, condemnation, felt dirty, stained? Kind of like God must be just disgusted with you because you keep screwing up or you've just gone too far. Well, is that really how God feels about you? Well, today you're going to find out as you hear from former Marine Captain Mike Lewis, who had some terrible things done to him and he did some horrible things and he thought, you know, God probably couldn't stand to have him in his presence. And then he had a near-death experience. He was shocked. Well, I'm John Burke, author of the New York Times bestselling book, Imagine Heaven, and this is the Imagine Heaven Podcast.
Hey, well, welcome, Mike Lewis. I wanted to just uh before you share, you know, I I always think it's it's helpful for people to realize that what you're sharing might sound really wild and that's and that's why people are so reticent uh to share what you know often they say is more real to them than this life has been. But also to just realize that um you know so many of you sharing this you have nothing to gain sharing it. You don't you don't need to.
Mike um is actually a former captain in the Marines. Um so an officer in the Marines and then after serving in the Marine Corps was an engineer for Boeing. Um after that career ended up shifting uh with to EMC software uh where where he was in charge of business development for about $250 million uh of of product a year. And now he is semi-retired. Um which which I understand. It's like you you think you're going to retire but you're busier than ever. Uh cuz he has two patents and one patent pending. But Mike reached out to us and um I got to hear some of his story and I can't wait for for you to hear it because I think it's gonna really um help in all of life. I think Mike has a lot uh a a lot of wisdom uh because of the things and the difficulties even that he's been through. So Mike, thanks so much.
You're welcome, John. My my pleasure. Absolutely. So good to meet you. Uh well, and dive in, you know, if you don't mind, um kind of take us back to setting up uh some of the some of the challenges you had growing up and then the challenges in marriage and then what kind of led up to the NDE and the major shift that happened in your life.
Exactly. That's that's a good chronology. You know, it's difficult to even mention now uh but it's been dealt with and and fully put to bed by the living God, our father, for sure. But I was uh molested at the age of six >> by a trusted, you know, supposedly trusted uh family acquaintance. It wasn't repeated, but it was it was enough to, you know, kind of set me off on a on a course of uh developmental obeyance. It's it's >> Oh, yeah. when things, you know, kind of traumatic like that happen to a young child, uh, it it kind of stops development in certain areas because at that age, I mean, what do you do with that? You don't you don't know what to do with that. You don't have any skills around that, you know? You're just, you know, you're just kind of like fresh cement, you know.
Well, yeah. And I, you know what's so sad? I mean, Mike, I I have interviewed four near-death experiencers in the last couple months who have had tragic abuse, sexual abuse, and they were all men. >> Oh, wow. >> I And I think people don't realize, you know, many people know onethird of women um reported have been sexually abused, >> but almost the same amount number of men um now. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> it used to be one out of 10, but I think it's it's just increasing. But of course, men don't want to talk about it, >> you know. I mean, women don't either, but >> um >> well, you know why men don't talk about it? Cuz, you know, big boys don't cry. That was another distortion I grew up with was, you know, big boys don't cry. So, in other words, you're you're not supposed to feel or show emotion.
Not long after that happened, I started having this just terrible nightmare. Uh, I've said to my family, just, you know, my wife and and just a couple others that I must have had that stupid nightmare like a hundred times, John. It was It's the only thing that I can remember all the details about other than my near-death experience.
What was it? >> It was It always started the same. I'm I'm heading up this stairway uh to like a rooftop, but it's dark. Uh and I'm and I know something is behind me. And I turn around and look and for for for lack of any better terminology, it's I look back and I see these two little forms, these two little demons, these two little dark things. And they're they're after me. And I'm running to the top of the steps and I get to the roof and I look out across into the field and I see uh this farmer on a tractor and he's pulling a plow and right then he stops and he gets down and looks and I can see that he has plowed up a bunch of bones of dead people. And right then I'm I look to my left and there's like a chest on the roof and I go over and open it and it's full of bones. I know I was just scared of death or scared to death. I don't know what it was but started wetting the bed. Uh and I started having these terrible stomach cramps. My parents were it was driving them crazy because I' i'd have these sessions of stomach cramps curled up in the fetal position on the couch on a Saturday morning when I should be watching cartoons, right? And I'm crying, you know, and this is like the age of six or seven or eight right in there.
Wow. >> Yeah. >> And you and you know it's so common though because you know there's even a book your body keeps score right and >> Yeah. And your body does. Your body tells you things that are going on in your soul and emotions even if you're told to shove it down, >> right? >> And and you know, I think I think what's difficult is I think to some degree God gives us protections >> as young children when we don't know how to deal with things. And so we we dissociate or we but in time you got to deal with them in a healthier way than just shoving them down, right? You you do, but the skills and the abilities to do that don't come until later. And only then, if you're fortunate, right? A lot of people go to their graves with this. Oh, that happened a long time ago. It's no big deal. It's history. You know, they want to keep it buried. >> Yeah. >> Much unknown to them at great expense of their emotions. >> Yeah. >> And probably their relationships. >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. because um I don't want to run to the end of the sermon here, but after my transformation uh I I I learned and saw and understood my true self >> for the first time. >> Uh prior to that, I I would I would have said, well, that's just the way I am, you know, which was an ego. You know, it's a false self that develops when you have a lot of things going on that distort your views of relationships, you know, sex, marriage, business, money, you know, name it, right? >> Absolutely. >> So, anyway, that's kind of the backstory of of a lot of kind of pain and suffering. And so as I move, you know, to move on kind of into the more mature years of my life, um, uh, after after my, uh, OCS and after graduating with my commission, I took some time off, uh, a little bit of leave time and got married and which, um, resulted in the birth of of two of my wonderful three children. And but I was still that old compromised um man of uncaracter. I was I was lacking character. I I just you know there were some good things about me I I would say. Um, but there were some things that were not healed, not fixed, not not not, you know, clearly worked through. And >> and as a result, I I compromised my character and my marriage and myself. uh even if it was just once, it could it could be a thousand times in the same result, which ended up um basically um after about 3 months of just internal torment, I I went to my wife at the time and I said, "Look, uh I've got to talk to you about something because I don't know what is going on with me. I don't know what is wrong. I don't know why I did this, but I did. And I and I got to This is either going to make our marriage stronger than it ever could have been or it's going to grenade it. Well, >> was it adultery? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Just I mean, one evening and but you know, and it's funny how when you're an egotistical person, you're like, "Ah, she doesn't like me anyway." You know, you justify the dumbest things and you justify your actions because the ego will never tell you that it's wrong. >> It's always right. >> And you know what's good for me? Well, that's what makes it right. >> And if you get in the way of me getting what I want, well, that's how I define wrong. I mean, that's >> that's kind of the fabric of morality today. >> That's kind of the that's that's kind of the core of sin nature. My will be done on earth and heaven. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well said. So, well, what happens when you pull the pin on a grenade and you let go of the spoon? >> You know, there's a thing on it called a spoon. It doesn't go well until you let Yeah. It >> So, for the next basically 18 months to two years, I I kind of lived in hell. I'll just put it that way. which was just kind of more it's almost like I had created the environment that I grew up in and and and that's you know people you know more subconsciously than any you know we create the situation that keeps us in our comfort zone even you know albeit a distorted one >> um you know because supposedly that's you know where you've always lived and so anyway >> well and sometimes I think people recreate that traumatic childhood subconsciously trying to work it out. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> But if you don't realize that, you you keep ret-raumatizing yourself. >> You just keep pulling the trigger, man. And and Yeah. And that's exactly what was happening. But and she had every right to to to, you know, to put a chair through the through the wall, right? and to um you know to to feel the way that she did about me and and to say the things that I heard basically nightmarish awful things for uh almost two years but in my mind I'm like, you deserve it dude, you stink, you know, you suck, look at what you've done. I mean >> talking to yourself >> talking to myself, yeah, absolutely, yeah. And and, you know, it was then that I began to ask myself, John, some some really hard questions. I can remember standing on the front row at church and I'm like, you know, singing praises to the Lord cuz I I was a believer. Uh, you know, but it was like, who do you think you are? You're up here singing praises to Jesus and look what you just did, you know, you rotten human, you know, you sinful blah blah blah. >> And I'm like I'm like, golly, I don't even know who I am really. Why Why would I do that? And then, you know, John, I started I started uh like I said, I started asking myself some really hard questions and I began to look backwards in my in my history of relationships and it they were a wreck. All of them pretty much, you know, on the female side that just terrible. Just, you know, no abuse or anything ugly like that. None nothing outside the decent boundaries. Just dysfunctional though. you know, I I might have loved someone, but I had no idea how to love them, >> right? >> And and so I began to see that and and then all of a sudden, I began to see other things further back, like into my childhood, like some of the things that we just covered. And then, you know, the the six-year-old thing, and I'm like, "Oh, why am I thinking about that? I I you know I that was a long time ago, you know, and I started kind of trying to make excuses and then that's when I started to break out into hives. um just a little bit here and there and then um the divorce began, the proceedings of that and uh I moved out uh into a out of our home into a one-bedroom crappy apartment with a mattress for my furniture. Um I was not able to see my kids and tuck them in >> every night. >> Yeah. just devastating. >> It was was not good. And um but I was like, "You brought it on yourself, dude. Way to go." And um so that began kind of compiling all those ugly things. And as as it progressed, uh, I ended up with these like quarteriz blisters from my ankles to my armpits. Just this raging histamin reaction to the point to where um, I thought I was going to die. I mean, what is it called when like when Christ shed drops of blood, sweat drops of blood in Gaston? hemattosis, I think, >> coming out of his skin because of the stress. Yeah, >> I think it's called hematosis. And and I felt like I was on the verge of that.
Um, and so just just to kind of insert this, I was digging into the Bible uh as my refuge. Um, you know, the world when you're when you're going through a period of great suffering, I mean, frankly, abject suffering and despair, >> the world is at the ready, man, to hand out seven ways to numb yourself, right? Oh, yeah. >> You know, pornography, alcohol, drugs, you know, pick your poison. Oh, you know, Mike, you you shouldn't be, you know, going through this here. you know, the world, it just wants to basically bury you with its good will, which is ill will, unbeknownst to to most who turn to that. And I said, absolutely not. I started I was almost like demanding of God. I want to know the truth. I want to know the truth about me. I want to know who I am. I want to know Christ. I want to know you. I want to know nothing but the truth. everything else I don't want to have anything to do with. And so, I mean, I I can't even tell you how long it was before I even got a TV, let alone turned it on. I dug into the Bible, my New King James Version, which I still have from way back when, and >> ultimately the the the hives just they got so bad, like I said, I I thought that I was about to to die. I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep. I could barely put on clothes because it was just I was just on fire from the inside out. And so I I actually went into an emergency kind of a an urgent care and um I got into the doctor exam room and I took my shirt off and he his eyes about popped out of his head. He goes, "I have never seen a case of of uh" He said, "Poison ivy, poison oak, or poison sumac. What what have you done to yourself, son?" And I said, "Doctor, I haven't been off the black top in six months. There's no way." You know, well, he says, "We've got to get you admitted and get you on antibiotics." I'm like, "No, no, I'm I'm not, you know, there's the kind of the marine attitude, right? I can deal with this. You know, I made a steel, right?" So I said just, you know, give me a shot or something, you know, to soothe the pain, something to ease the itching and the burning, and I'm going home. So he gave me a shot. I don't know if it was cortisone or a steroid or, you know, whatever it was, and a prescription for some stuff that that did kind of ease the pain, but as soon as it wore, you know, it was a topical. It was like a veno or something like that. And um I ended up I I I couldn't even eat uh when I got home. I was so just so tired, so exhausted and just fighting this raging war inside of me that I got down on my knees beside my mattress and I put my head on the floor as I had done before. Um, I'd only been living there for a few weeks though when this happened.
And, you know, I'd only been living in the apartment for a few weeks and the next thing I know is what our conversation here is really all about. Um, after after I got down on my knees and I started to pray, I I I clearly fell asleep as I had many times. Except for this time all of a sudden I find myself in what I've always described as a cobblestone train station. Uh it's it's nothing but street pavers. Uh, you know, red red buffalo bricks as my dad used to call him. He was a mason. Uh I learned masonry as a kid. I'm I'm in this cobblestone train station and I'm standing there next to who was my best friend at the time. And I turn to him and I say, "Steve, wouldn't you love to meet Jesus Christ face to face just once? Just once, man." And right then when I said that, I was instantly transported to this this amazing meadow. It was and and I was standing at the foot of a body of water that that began at my feet and it stretched out and up all the way to the horizon. And on both sides of this body of water was just this amazing green like perfectly groomed bright pastures on both sides. Just smooth green illuminated like grass, but I don't know if it was grass or not. and and and it was it was light. It there was light everywhere. The whole place was illuminated. There wasn't any kind of shadow. There wasn't anything like that whatsoever. But there but there was no sun. There wasn't a you know a star a there's no sun. There's no moon. It's just daylight. But a v a very bright brilliant daylight. And as I I was I'm noticing these things and I look down at my feet and this water it's it's like alive but it's like a river but it's not moving. It's it's it's like I I've always referred to it as liquid mercury. If you've seen mercury liquid mercury >> uh it's shiny and silvery and it doesn't have to move or do anything. It's just but it it's like this alive thing this water and on on both sides of the water kind of what made the banks that held the water in were these perfectly cut three-foot rectangular shaped excuse me limestones and they're all uh, you know, laid in parallel to one another and perpendicular to the water and they stretch all the way to the horizon as well. And as my eyes follow them all the way to the horizon, that's when I noticed way way out there on the horizon. In fact, the horizon seemingly was the curvature of the earth when I looked to the point to where the water met the sky. You know, it's it's kind of like if you stand in a road at the foot of a hill and you look at the road, it it kind of narrows as the further away it gets and then it touches the sky. Well, that's what this was like. But it was way out there. And I saw this tiny figure. And I instantly in my mind, I mean, I couldn't see who it was. I I couldn't see the face. Nothing to that would tell me visually, you know, who or what it is, but in my mind, I'm like, that's Jesus. Oh my.
It's like you just knew >> instantly. Instantly. There was no questions. And Mike is this so I is the the vividness or the reality of this the same or different than that I I don't know what you call it the vision where you're you're seeing your friend cuz >> Mhm. >> Was your friend still alive? >> Yes, he was. He was still alive. And and I've puzzled over that, John, because that beginning and and the way this ends, which you'll see, is very similar. >> Um, but so there's been times when I thought, well, okay, was that part of this was was I dreaming? But in my dreams, I was saying, I want to meet Jesus. I want to meet him so bad. I mean, my heart just yearned for him. M. And did it did it feel like a dream? >> No. No, it didn't. It the beginning and the end both were all part of the same experience. I I have to say, excuse me. So, yeah. Um, it it it's all one experience. And so knowing what dreams are like and and how you know if you're lucky you can remember 3 seconds of it and 10 seconds later you're like, "Oh, wait. What was it?" You know, it's just gone. >> It's it's not part of memory whatsoever. That's what's so amazing about my experience is that it it was it was so real that it's it's like permanently embedded in me in my in my memory in my mind. It's like all the details that I'm going to give that I've given and that I'll continue to give it. They're as vivid as they were when it occurred 32 years ago when I was 33 years old. >> Um it's like it happened an hour ago. It's it's just crazy how it is, but it's just that's just the way these things are, you know.
Well, and that is common uh with near-death experiences that they they they commonly say when when they start to remember it, it's like they're reexperiencing it. And sometimes they get overwhelmed with emotion, but also some some have told me, you know, what they've realized is it's the memory is not stored in their brain because it didn't happen in their physical body. get stored in their soul. >> soul. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And and you know, just a quick comment on the soul. I I've learned uh I think it was one of the many questions that I asked Christ, and we'll talk about that. Um, you know, I said that I I think I must have asked him 733. Uh and that's a very relevant number. I'll tell you more about that. But uh that many questions in like a microscond, a nancond, a picoscond, way down the decimal point, right? Um and in fact there's no way the the physical brain can can go that fast. There's not here but there, >> right? >> Absolutely. Um and so but over time those questions that I asked that have been answered have kind of been uh medded out over time to me through scripture study through you know speaking and teaching whether it's in schools or you know theological seminary or uh an orphanage you know at the prison that I've ministered to for years. uh all these all those great truths to all those great answers they just it's it's just been amazing how they have come back to me but at the right time when I really needed you know some that piece you know of information and we'll we'll talk about that >> well keep going I'm sure some of my questions are in those 733 so maybe I can finally get answers >> good I'm looking forward to it I love the challenge um so so I see this figure and I instantly know in my mind that's Jesus. And I'm like, and as soon as I said that, John, as soon as I said that's Jesus, he starts coming towards me. >> And I noticed even at that great distance, I could see that his he was he was wearing a long white garment, head to foot, and that he was one foot off of the water and that he is six feet tall. Exactly. And I'm like, well, that's a perfect sevent. You know, why else, you know, he he wouldn't be two inches off the water. He would be one foot because he's six foot and that makes seven. You know, divine number, right? >> You just knew that. >> I did. I just knew that. It just was there. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. And as as he continues towards me, um I'm just watch I'm just transfixed on him and I start seeing more and more detail. And when he's within 10 ft of me, I begin to like think, "Oh man, okay, so I am a very rotten human. I do not deserve to be in front of him. I I don't want him near me. He He shouldn't come near this this thing that I am. And I began to feel this amazing love. And the thing that is most profound for me was the level of acceptance that I experienced >> as it just washed over me and through me. It was it was exhilarating. It was lifechanging. It was something. It was at a level that you we can't experience on on this earth. You know, I know how you love your children. I know how I love mine and and I know how we love our grandchildren and >> and my wonderful soulmate. >> Um but even that love and that level of acceptance, it's just not possible to exist here in the physical. It can't. And why it can't, we could that's a whole another conversation, right? But I know you've heard that. I, you know, just trying to put it into words is is difficult enough. There aren't words. >> You just have to use what you know. Um, you know, in this physical existence of ours. And and the love and acceptance that was washing over me. It was it just like it bathed me. It was like baptism, you know, in a way. I'd never been baptized before. And but then again I I started thinking but my sin Lord you know I I was like but but but but he said I heard him say in my mind my work is complete Michael and your suffering under the bondage of sin is paid for. M. >> And right then as I I I was seeing all my sins like like in a pile right then I was thinking about those sins that he had just told me were all washed away. And he he like he said to the Pharisees, well, like it says in scripture, and Jesus knowing their thoughts, he knew my thoughts. And I saw him tilt his head and he smiled. And he put a vision into my head of me as a child sitting at the dinner table and a loving father sitting across from me. And that child reaches for the salt shaker and on the way accidentally dumps over his milk on the table. And you know that's what you do when you're a kid. It's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm in like so much trouble." And he laughed. The loving father on the other side laughs and he goes, "Michael, I've got this." >> I can't tell you what that felt like. It was >> so it was like Jesus w was saying was saying you you're still trying to focus on your mistakes, your sins, all that. >> Yes. >> But I've got this. I'm I'm like a I'm a good loving father who I can clean up your little spill. I've I've done it. I've paid for it. >> Yes. And I by no stretch am I trying to minimize sin and the power of sin. The wages of sin is death. It was death to my marriage. >> Yeah, >> it's proof, folks. Sin is for the wages of sin of death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Right. As the scripture says and >> well, and you know, Mike, I think what what what people sometimes don't realize is the way evil works. And I've seen this as a pastor for 30 years. >> Oh, yeah. Evil will take someone's brokenness and and wounds not dealt with, pushed down, usually from generation to generation. >> Yeah. >> And convince them that if if if I use this little boy for my pleasure, he'll never remember. It's okay. >> You know, it's it's it's just it's not a big deal, >> right? >> And so evil use that friend to wound you, >> right? then starts to condemn you. Well, it's it's your fault. You're you're horrible. Oh, boy. >> You know, you're >> and out of that condemnation then suggests just like you said, well, here's a path to ease that pain >> and starts to steer you down paths. >> Oh, yeah. >> That then cause more damage and destruction. And the reason I point that out is because, you know, God does not condemn us. You know, Romans 8:1 says, "There is no condemnation." >> Therefore, now no condemnation. >> No condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. >> Amen. >> And so, you know, when we do wrong, you're right. There are consequences. God just wants us to turn back to him for forgiveness. And he's he's already paid for it. We're forgiven. >> He doesn't want us to live in that shame and condemnation. >> No. No. >> And I think, you know, that was probably a bit of what he was showing you. Maybe >> absolutely absolutely and you know again I like I said I don't want to minimize sin but but in that moment in that moment John it was as as I experienced that and him just the combination of all that going on at that very moment. First of all, I began to realize or or at least I felt like I was the only he made me feel like I was the only person that that existed or or like ever existed. It's it's a crazy feeling. >> It was absolutely unbelievable, but yet very believable because it was so true. That's how that's how great his power is. His power, the power of Christ is so beyond our comprehension that he can make all eight plus billion humans on this earth. And there's probably more to come before it's all over. He has the power to enable each and every single one of us to feel like we're the only thing that matters to him. >> How about that? >> It's amazing. >> It's amazing. >> And I've heard that. so many times. >> Oh, really? >> Well, yeah. >> Really? Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's so true. >> And and it's I had not really thought of that until I kept hearing >> again and again near-death experiencers saying almost verbatim what you just said. >> Wow. >> What What did What did Jesus look like? Was he >> I'll show you >> like a like a man. So, I'm I'm kind of a an amateur, maybe even a novice in my uh studies and speaking uh about the Shroud of Turin. Oh, >> I I will tell you from my own personal experience and knowing what I know, especially after Sigundopia in 1898 took the first black and white photograph of the shroud, he he nearly dropped the plates when he developed them in his dark room because what was on his plate was not a negative. >> It was a positive because the image on the shroud is a negative. Now, go figure that one out. you know, the STRP guys, they could not figure that out. All these scientists, right, John Jackson, whom I've I've spoken with actually out in Colorado, >> but I'll I'll tell you I don't want to digress here. Here here is this is who I saw. >> That is a that is a an artist. That is a painting, a drawing over the image that's on the Shroud of Turan. M >> you can see some of the some of the telltale that you know like the blood stains from the crown of thorns that are on the shroud and the rivullet right here. >> Right. >> That that is that is who I was standing in front of. I saw him and no one will ever change my mind. It's >> Well, you know what's so fascinating, Mike, is I I I did another podcast with a friend of mine who had a near-death experience. She was Jewish. She grew up Jewish in an atheist home where her dad every night told her, "You're there is no God. Your life is worthless. Jesus Christ is a hoax." >> Right. I saw that one. I watched that one. >> And she and she said that when she saw the the the most recent So, you know, I talked about the most recent evidence of the Shroud of Trin. >> Yeah. You know, because I had I had I had dismissed it >> because well because they had carbon dated it to the 1500s. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But but what has >> 98 and 1326 some something like that right in between there. >> Is that right? Yeah. It was Yeah. So what what they've recently discovered is that you know it there was a fire and you can see the burn marks. >> Oh yeah. And when they sampled the cloth, they sampled it. They've realized from what's been um basically nuns repaired some of the burns on the edges. Yeah. >> And so they were sampling cloth from the time of that fire. So they've sampled other bits of the cloth and it went back to the first century. >> Yeah. Yeah. Ray Rogers, who used to be one of the biggest uh protagonists of the authenticity of the Shroud, later before as he was dying of cancer, he he rescended all that he said and and he proved through some electron microscopy that those edges contained cotton in them and that those had been >> instead of linen >> instead of flax. Yeah. the herring bone weave uh and the material being flax that the shroud was made of. Yes. >> Cotton didn't exist back then >> and and not only was there cotton, but he showed where it interrupted uh at the edges of the herring bone. It interrupted the weave and said that they had been rewoven into the >> Well, and the other thing is that they don't we do not have a technology that can produce a like you said >> an image a threedimen with three-dimensional information. >> Yes. The >> from the inside out analyzer proved that, right? >> Yeah. >> John So anyway, we could we could geek out on this, but >> Oh my gosh. What I find though so fascinating is I just see God just kind of like pouring on the evidence for anybody who really wants to see. >> Yes. >> In in our day and age, it's like he is pouring out like you want more. Okay, here's more. Here's more. >> Mhm. And I think as evil is increasing its destructive, you know, attack and trying to turn people away from God, like God's going, "Okay, here's more. Here's more." >> Yeah. But he doesn't >> counterattack kind of. >> Yeah. But he doesn't ever overwhelm our free will. If we really >> if we really don't want him, we don't want to know, there's plenty of things to go, "Yeah, well, what about this? What about this? What about >> a skeptic? Right. It I've often said it's easy to be a skeptic. All you have to do is not know anything about the subject. >> Right. >> Well, and you know, I've I've always said there are two kinds of there's two kinds of skepticism. There's a skepticism where you're like, >> you know, I want to understand. I don't want to just blindly believe. >> And I think that's healthy. You know, it's like doubting Thomas. It's, you know, he >> he healthfully, you know, go Jesus didn't, you know, you're you're such a bad person because you you you doubted. There's there's skepticism that will believe if it's given evidence, >> but there's skepticism that just wants to find reasons to already confirm what they already believe. >> Yes. >> That's that's cynicism. That's a whole different thing. Yes. Anyway, we digress. And is Jesus um he's is he wearing a robe or what's he >> So that's a great question. Um I thought it was at first when I when I first looked out to the horizon and saw him and as he got closer and closer and closer like even when he was within 10 ft of me uh when things began to really happen, you know, I was still kind of just seeing it as a as a garment. I I I always call it a garment, but as he got closer cuz he got within 3 ft of me and and that's when we really began to communicate. But but before that, as he as he was moving from about 10 feet to to within my body space, I noticed that his he was wearing a garment of light. It looked like a white robe from way out. But as he got close to me, I could see I I've said this over and over again in my mind and and to the few people that I've shared this with. It was like he his garment was made of trillions of tiny little light particles. Each one possessing every light of the known electromagnetic spectrum. You know, the seven colors of the rainbow. and then some. I don't even know what the colors were, but I was like, "That is not cloth." And I'm like, "Well, yeah, you're you're not on Earth right now, dude. It's light." I was like just It's just an incredible thing, you know? It's kind of like when you're thinking about something and the light bulb comes on, you know, it's like, "Wow, he's he's, you know, wearing a garment of light. How do you do that?" you know, and >> well, and you know, you know, I don't want to keep interrupting, but it's so amazing to me because a Jewish woman in Australia described the same thing. And she didn't even know he was Jesus. >> She just knew he >> she knew he was a man >> with all the wisdom of the universe. >> And she said, "I could just sit at his feet forever." And she said, "But what was amazing, he was wearing a garment woven of light, and I just kept thinking, how can a garment be woven of light?" >> Yeah. >> Isn't that wild? >> Yes. That's awesome to hear. I didn't I've never heard that. I' I've never I've never heard that uh in all the indie ebooks I've read. Um >> Well, and there's a there's a scripture that's that talks about how God wears he wears a garment of light. >> Wow. >> I mean, it Yeah. I'm not sure if it's Job or Yeah. clothed in light. >> Clothed in light. I absolutely he is. Um >> Well, keep going. I don't want to keep interrupting. >> No, you interrupt as much as you want. This is this is your show, man. Um and so so I'm looking at him and after he puts that vision of the the loving father with the little kid who, you know, made the mistake of dumping their milk and that it's, you know, it's okay, Mike. I've got this. and and and and I know this might sound there, you know, you're a you're a preacher teacher. I'm an ordained Christian minister as well. I preach and teach mainly in a prison. And but I'm going to say this and because at this moment it was like it was like at that moment it was like I could see that it felt like sin didn't exist anymore. M >> and because Christ paid for with his life, you know, with his with his suffering, it's paid for. All sin, past, present, future, done. He's not going to do it again, you know, and and that was going through my mind. And and it was I think that's divine knowledge, you know, I didn't possess that. I just was able to see that. And it's mankind that keeps sin alive, right? We >> you know, which >> is awful, but we do. I mean, because of our fallen nature. It's unfortunate. It's no excuse. But that fallen nature is, you know, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak, you know, as the scripture says. So, so I felt that and and that's when I began to realize fully that he and I were communicating without saying a word. And and I can tell you I had never thought of this. I I wouldn't think ever in my even though I was really digging into the Bible cover to cover a couple of times um prior to this happening. I mean, I I was going through it so fast. I mean, like in two weeks, because I had it on cassette, I'd go through the Old and New Testament, all 66 books, 39 and 27, from Genesis to Revelation, in just a matter of a few weeks. So, I had already been through it a couple of times. And I I just knew that my my sins had been forgiven. And I had not ever read or even had any thought that the language in heaven is is thought. Through all of the studying that I had done, I had not ever come across that. And maybe it's in there. Um, and I just blasted by it really quick. But I began to think, you know, after my near-death experience, just in the days right after, I began to think about that and I was like, "Wow." So, the language in heaven is thought. It's a thought language. There's no dialect. There's no Because if there was dialect, it's it creates division. Well, I speak English. Well, I speak Russian. Well, I speak, you know, this this, you know, blah blah blah. All the I don't know thousand languages of the planet. Um but in heaven there's one thought and it's instant when you think of something to ask him. The thought is instant, his read is instant and his response is instant. In fact, >> it seemed like, you know, being kind of computer geeks as we are, it was like with an everinccreasing baud rate that we began to communicate. And it was so fast and so just voluous that again in in our physical brain, in our physical existence, I mean, we can think things pretty quick. You know, in a five minute conversation, I've heard it said that 400 different things, thoughts can go through a person's mind. Well, it was way beyond that >> um because of just how it is now. You know, people say, "Oh, telepathy." I don't care, you know, what folks want to label it as. All I know is that we were communicating and the lips weren't moving. Because think about it, you know, my definition using one word to describe one thing in our language can be something completely different in another language, but it everybody's looking at a cow, but the way your language and word describes that cow can be have different, you know, subtle differences to it. >> Whereas if everybody of all these different languages are looking at a cow, what are they thinking? Cow. I see it. You know, the image is a cow. They're not thinking the word that describes it. >> So, anyway, that's how thought language works in heaven. It's it's instant >> and it's >> you can go as fast as you want. Uh because Jesus can keep right up. >> I mean, he was like, "Is that all you got, Mike? Give it all to me, man. I'll answer it all." You know? Um, >> well, you know what's fascinating is some it seems like some people like it immediately it's like questions and answers, but others and I'm asking maybe it's like you start to get it like I can ask a question, he'll answer right away. I can ask another. I can ask another. And then it and then it like you were saying increases the baud rate. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It was like it it it got it got so fast it was like this amazing download of a Cray supercomput, man. I mean, we had one at Boeing. It was what we used for for a flight test. And it it just kept getting faster and faster and I was loving it. I was like, "Man, this is amazing. I'm loving this." And it it just got to the point to where I just didn't want it to end because just, you know, he is the source, right? I mean, everything is is right in front of me and and I'm tapped into it. In fact, I I I've said to to my wife many times, it's like eventually it got to the point to where it was like my mind was resided in his and his was in mine, you know? I mean, it really felt that way. It got to the point to where it was it was like this interconnectivity that was just getting tighter and tighter and broader and faster and I didn't want it to end. And the next thing I know in that in my experience as we're as we're communicating like this he comes over to my left and lowers his right hand and I instantly reached down and grabbed it. And when I grabbed his hand, I looked down cuz I was thinking, I wonder if we're in a float above
The water like he did when he came here. And I looked down and we are. We're both a foot off the water and I'm I'm like looking right through my feet. It's like I'm looking right through my feet and I'm looking right through the water. I'm looking right through this this liquid mercury, this this gold silver river. I'm looking right through it and it's like the universe is there or below it or I don't know. I just I looked into infinity or something when I looked straight down. I looked right through our feet, right through the river.
Right. >> What do you What do you mean? What are you seeing? >> Just it was transparent, I guess. You know, I was expecting to kind of see, you know, like a river of water or, you know, a solid >> surface. Mhm. >> that would reflect, you know, like normal like here. But I instead I looked right I just looked right through it and it was like >> looking into space. You know, you look up at night and all you see >> like with stars and galaxies and Yes. >> And you could see that through the water. >> Yeah. >> How fascinating. >> Yeah. It was crazy. But it it was it's what I saw, you know. It's it's what I saw.
And then instantly when I grabbed his le his right hand with my left, as soon as I grabbed that and looked down, we were both a foot off the water and we started to go to go forward and right right across the water, right towards the the curvature of the earth, right towards the horizon where the water met the sky where he came from. We're headed there. And as we're going along, I mean, it began to speed up actually. And I I always say this happened at about halfway. I'm I'm guessing cuz the distance I I don't know. I I can't I can't really quantify it.
>> Did you have a sense of where you were going or why? >> I had a sense that I'm going with him back to where he came from, wherever that was. like going to heaven. >> I think so. I I was in I was kind of in heaven or or you know uh second Corinthians 12:2 where Paul talks about I knew a man about 14 years ago was taken up into the third heaven into paradise. That's that's where I think I was.
That's >> You know what's interesting though, and again, I don't want to digress too much, but >> I find that some near-death experiencers have an encounter, and it's it's not to heaven, but um sometimes Jesus calls it the waiting room, and it's a it's a they call it a room of light. >> Wow. >> With insubstantial walls. others, they find themselves in >> the the galaxies in outer space. >> Right. >> And then he he says, "You can come on with me to heaven or you can go back." >> Mhm. >> And I wonder sometimes even as you describe that, it made me wonder like is this something that he kind of it's kind of like he's he's creating this >> um >> he's materializing this this pathway to heaven for you. And the reason I say that is because there's this other guy, this neurologist >> who is being stabbed to death, sees what he called this infinite corridor of light >> and boom, God's there >> and from wherever he came from, you know, similar. I >> And I don't know. I I I I just ponder wondering. So I wonder if I I almost wonder if like he was like, "Okay, we're going. Let's He's taking you to heaven."
>> He knew I wanted to go. He he knew I wanted to go because, you know, like I said, right before I knelt down before my mattress that night, I I felt like I was gonna die. And in a way, in ways, John, I kind of wanted to. >> I was like done. I'm like I was at that point of like just total exasperation with like everything in my life.
>> Well, and you know what? You know what's so amazing is that your sin and the condemnation and shame you were feeling and all that stuff from all those years building up was literally killing your body. >> It was. >> And what Jesus And what Jesus showed you is all these things in a pile that have now just been wiped away from the as far as the east is from the west. >> Oh, that's a great analogy. Well, so as you're going along this, is that when you're having these questions and answers downloading?
>> No, that that kind of ended when I when he came to my left. I I think he, you know, Christ seemed to me that he was kind of good with where we were at, I think, or something because he comes to >> I'd be like, "Hey, I just got I I 733 questions. I just got started. Yeah. Really? I know.
>> Were you Were you able to bring any of that back? Because I know many times people say, "I knew these answers, but I but he didn't. He veiled it. I wasn't allowed to bring it back." >> One of the things, one of the questions I remember that came back to me later was, okay, what runs this miracle machine called the body? >> Is it the brain? Is it the heart? Is it a combination of the two? He said, 'N no, it's your soul, Michael. >> He says, "The body, the flesh, is weak. It's it's powerless unless the soul inhabits it." And he was like, "Show me a body without a soul and and I'll show you a dead body." Right? And I was like, "Yeah, but the brain and and he kind of, you know, inferred that the brain is kind of like a a CPU. It's like a computer. The soul is the operating system. It tells the brain how to make your kidneys function and how to make your liver filter your blood and your bile creation and marrow in the bones and red blood cells and white blood cells and thrombocytes, urethraittes, right? All luccoytes, all the above, you know, miracle machine.
>> So, of course, it takes something incredibly powerful to run this miracle machine. And also it shows not only how powerful the soul is in that respect. John, it has the ability, the knowledge, the wisdom to run the to run the body. It also has the power to live for eternity. >> That's kind of a powerful thing, you know. I'm just saying, you know, that. So, >> yeah. >> Yeah, that's that's >> Well, I've always I've always wondered, you know, like our soul seems to be the almost like the energy that forms the physical body around us continually. >> Uhhuh. And and I've and I've pointed it, you know, to the reality that our our cells are being they're our cells are dying and being replaced with new cells all the time. >> People don't realize this, but 10 years from now, you are not the same body you were 10 years ago. >> Very different. >> All your cells have been replaced. >> Absolutely. >> So what keeps you being you? >> Right. Well, >> or or even like I've wondered and I don't know if this is true, but like phantom pain like when someone loses a leg. >> My sister has lost her leg. >> Oh, I'm so sorry. >> I and I have a Marine friend that lost both of his above the knee. >> Well, and you know, they experience it. They experience it. >> And the problem is they still feel that their leg is there even though it's not physically there. >> Yeah. >> And there's pain. >> That's pretty amazing. Yeah. That's >> and I wondered the same thing like is that the soul saying something's wrong? I don't know. You know I I mean
>> so we're Excuse me. So we're we're traveling at an ever increasing rate again. Kind of like the baud rate thing. We're speeding up and speeding up and speeding up and we're at what I always said. We're about halfway and something catches the corner of my eye and I turn and look and when I turn to my right and look, >> it's it's the beautiful blue marble of the Earth like you would see it from space like we've seen from, you know, the astronauts taking photographs looking back at the Earth on the way to the moon and others just in orbit and stuff. And I see that and I kind of, you know, how you kind of squint. I I kind of did that and that I I all of a sudden I'm seeing buildings and cars and people and streets and sidewalks and telephone poles and bridges and I'm like I say in my mind, "Oh, look Lord, it's the earth." And John, right when I said that, I was instantly back in that train station, the cobblestone train station where it all began. And I looked to my left cuz I'm like, I'm wanting to see him. Like, okay, this had to be real. I know it's real. Where's Jesus? I turn to my left. Excuse me. And when I do that, when I turn left, I'm looking in the window just oh, probably 20 yards away. I'm looking in the in the a first story window of a of a hospital or a clinic or something. I'm looking right through the window into a patient's room and the patient there there is a what appear to be a doctor at the foot and a doctor at the head. Both wearing long white garments. I've since then kind of changed my perception on on those two individuals. I don't think they were doctors. I think they were angels. I think I think they were my guardian angels. My wife says, "I've retired about 10 because of the dumb things I've done in my past." >> They just gave up. >> Oh, yeah. They're like, "Okay, I'm out." Okay, somebody take this dude, will you? You know, like like when I looked down at my speedometer on my my superbike and it says 181 and I thought, you know, I should probably slow down. I'm on a highway here. >> Oh my gosh. I told it was dumb. >> Yeah, one of those. So, I'm looking in the window and I see these two very tall figures that it looked like physicians in long, you know, kind of those white smoks that they wear, >> but they were taller. And so, like I said, I've kind of changed my perception on that. And as I'm as I'm looking in that window, just then the the physician or the the person at the foot pulls the sheet over the body of the person in the bed. And in my mind, I I think I say, "Uh, that person's dead." Right. When I do that, the person in the bed raises up at the waist, sits up in bed, the sheet slides down, they turn and look at me, and it was me. It was me. That That was I was the dead person in there.
>> And right then, I woke up on the floor. It's 3:30 in the morning when I looked at my digital clock. 3:33 >> to be exact. >> I'm on I'm on the floor still. My legs are asleep. I can I can barely get off of them. And you know when you have a mattress for your bed, it's about that high off the floor. I just rolled into bed just like right off the floor. How long had it been since you I >> I got down on my knees right around 9:30. That's about when I was would go to bed. It's still I still go to bed about that time about 9. >> So it' been about 6 hours or so. >> Yeah. And like I said, I I I was I could have been asleep for a while before. Um, I don't know, maybe after for a while, but
>> so cur, you know, I'm so curious because so many of the of the details of what you were describing in the near-death experience, even even like when you turned and looked at the the Earth. >> Yes. >> And it was like you could zoom in, you had telescopic vision. That's another >> that's another commonality. or this >> this idea of what I think was Jesus prayer his last night on earth that they might that they might be one even as you are in me father and I am in you may they be in us >> you know or like when Paul says we have the mind of Christ that experience of >> because I've heard that often that it was like Jesus was in me and I was in him and there was this oneness even though we were still separate >> so all those all those things like line up.
>> The interesting >> different thing to me is this I don't know what to call it almost like this vision. >> So what do you think that what do you think that beginning and ending part was about? >> Well, the beginning is where the first things out of my mouth. I'm I'm in the purest part of my heart and soul and mind and strength, which is what you know Christ says is the first commandment to love the thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, with all thy strength. This is the first commandment. The second is likened done to it. Love thy neighbor as thyself. >> There's another reason to know yourself. >> If you hate yourself, you're going to not love your neighbor very well. >> You're going to hate your neighbor, too, probably. Right. >> Yeah. So, So yeah, so that was me earnestly, honestly saying in my heart of hearts, Jesus, I want to know you. I was seeking him >> and I was every time I opened the scripture, every time I hit play >> on the cassette player in my car when I was traveling, you know, across the country for business or whatever.
>> So, so that's that piece. The other piece is even more dramatic later because that told me that the old Mike is dead. The He's gone. He's been put to death. Right. God put a bullet in my ego. Right. basically. Um because a few days later, John, there were some railroad tracks near where I lived at the time and I started going out on the tracks and just following them just and just praying and meditating as I walked. I I found myself coming around the bend and in this wooded area was an old cemetery and it had it was so old that it had limestone uh headstones. And if you've ever seen really old limestone headstones, they they fade with time and some of the letters kind of blacken there. I don't know if it's a it's a form of fungus or an algae that grows on it, >> but it does. >> And so I stepped off the track and and walked into this small cemetery and I continued to pray and a voice said, "Turn around." I just heard it in in my mind. I turned around and there was a gravestone and the last and the only name on it was Lewis and that's my last name. So that was like I had >> in my NDE experience I saw that my old self was gone and then in my physical conscious you know mind and in life I saw maybe I'm drawing a conclusion because I want to um but I saw the name Lewis on that headstone when I turned around and it was just kind of more confirmation >> you know Jesus is saying, "Okay, Mike, just so you're sure about this, you know, you're, you know, the old guy is gone. I >> you have died and now >> so it's no longer I who live." >> For my old self has been crucified with Christ. >> I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, >> lives in me. >> I live. >> Yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. And the life I now live, I live by the faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. >> Galatians 2:20. Amen, brother. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's beautiful. >> I mean, and and >> and it's and it's hard to understand if you haven't gone through it that the dying to self is actually the path to life. It's the it's the path to freedom. It's the path to peace and hope and joy. And >> that don't just come from your circumstances or you're trying harder. >> Correct. Come from the Lord. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, John, before before you and I, you know, had had this conversation, I thought, okay, if John askked me to summarize in one sentence what I learned through my whole experience prior to the NDE, during, and after, how would I summarize that? And I wrote it down, but I don't even have to look at it. Abject suffering led me to true salvation.
Well, >> I hope you enjoyed our conversation. We covered a lot of thoughts and ideas, but the most important that I really want to drive home is this. Romans 8:1. So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. You see, no matter what you've done, no matter what's been done to you, don't believe the lies that you're too dirty, you're too far gone, and let those keep steering you away from connection to God's spirit. You know, that's what happened to me when I was a new follower of Jesus. I kept screwing up. I mean, I was in a lot of bad habits and I would, you know, swear that I would stop. Um, but what I would hear every time I did it is that, "Man, you're such a screw-up. God doesn't want to hear from you until you can get your act together." Or, "You've had too many strikes, buddy. You know, God God is disgusted with you." But here's what that does is it drives you away from the very one who can help you grow and change. and evil lies about how God feels about you for this very reason to get you to stay away from God. But here's the reality. He will never leave you. But if we don't understand this and we don't understand, you know, what what Jesus showed and said to Mike, we get on this on this sick cycle. Um, you know, this is what would happen to me. I I would want to do God's will and I would vow that I would do better and then I'd screw up again and I'd feel shame and condemnation and I would vow to try even harder and I would try harder and eventually I'd fail again and then I felt even more condemnation which drove me further away from God. I would I I I thought he didn't want to hear from me, so I would just kind of ignore him, which only made me keep on that cycle, screwing up uh even more. And you know what, you guys, Paul, the writer of the New Testament, of a lot of it, understood this, you know, right before he says there's no condemnation, look at what he admits. He understands what we've been through in Romans chapter 7, starting in verse 15. I don't really understand myself for what I want. For I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate. Oh, what a miserable person I am. Who will free me from this life that's dominated by sin and death? See, we get in these habits. We get in habits of learning a certain way, living a certain way, disconnected from from God's spirit. And those habits literally get established in our flesh. That's what the Bible calls it in our bodies, right? Your body keeps track. It it really has a memory of of a lot of things. You know, my uh philosophy professor uh when I when I was doing my master's degree, Dr. JP Morland had a great analogy. He said it it's like a bad golf swing. Um I don't play much golf, but when I do, I slice regularly. And you don't want to do that if you don't know uh about golf. Um and if I just do my natural thing because I learned golf the wrong way and that that got sewn into my body. My body remembers how to slice. I don't even have to try. which would be great if golf were scored by the highest number of strokes, but it's not right. So, to develop a righteous golf swing, all right, in other words, a right swing that allows me to hit it where I want right down the the middle of the fairway, I have to practice new habits until they get sewn into my body or established in my mind and my body. And that's exactly the same as it is with right living with with living according to God's loving will and and ways. You know, we get in these bad habits. They don't just stop automatically, you know, when you decide you're going to follow Christ. Um they automatically keep re reminding you of those old things. So your temper just flares. You just get impatient. Your eyes just look. your mind just goes there. Um, your impulses just react because it's all sewn into your body. But just like a bad golf swing, that too can change. And here's where it starts. Paul goes on in Romans chapter 7, the answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. Why he did this? It goes on to say, "So that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us." In other words, we could fulfill the intent of the don't do this, do that. Those who no longer follow our our sinful nature, in other words, no longer follow the way our bodies got wired, but instead we follow the spirit. So, in other words, don't let failure and and sin, even though you may keep doing it, don't let it drive you away from God whose spirit can help you actually develop a new swing. See, he's like he's like the life coach who wants to help you develop a new swing, new spiritual habits as you follow him daily. And when you understand how he feels about you, even when you fail, you'll get up again, grab his hand, and keep failing forward, and you'll grow. See, here's the amazing truth that Mike experienced. Ephesians 1:es 4 and 5. Even before he made the world, God loved us. God loved you and chose you in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us, to adopt you into his own family. I mean, it's incredible, isn't it? And here's the thing, you guys. It's it was true for Mike before the near-death experience, and it's true for you. Jesus has already paid to wash clean anyone who wants it. He He makes us holy. Holy just means set apart. So we're not we're not the same. We're set apart for God, for God's family. And he sees us now without fault. He sees you as blameless and without fault. Now it doesn't mean you are blameless and without fault. I'm not blameless and without fault. What you have to understand is if you've ever just turned your heart to God and told him, you know, I want your love. I want your forgiveness. I want what Jesus did to count for me. Well, it does. It's done. Just like Jesus told Mike, it's already been done. You know, you you don't have to keep paying. And so we don't need to keep stuck in our sins or or our regrets, staying stuck uh in the past. It's all been paid in full. You owe nothing if you've accepted what Christ did for you. The only thing you owe is the debt of love to follow the one who loves you most day by day. And he'll never turn away from you. And he loves you like crazy. So stay connected to God's spirit daily, just like we talked about at the end of the last episode. And he, like a good coach, will help you develop new habits and grow into the person you were intended to be. It's amazing to think about. God really doesn't hold stuff against you. So do life with him. It's the best way to live. Well, if you've enjoyed this episode, please uh share any of these episodes with others that you think will be helped by them. And if you want to go deeper, you know, to see of the about 1,500 near-death experiences I've studied and how they the commonalities of them align with the Bible, go check out the Imagine Heaven audio book. Until next time, be blessed.