Atom Bergstrom - Yellow Fat, T'ai Chi, Bodybuilding, Drugs

All right, Adam. Pleasure. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining me. If anybody is not familiar with Mr. Bergstrom, he is an astute researcher and author of numerous books on yellow fat, as well as, uh, solar timing, or the idea that you should eat in accordance with the, uh, circadian rhythm.

And so, in my journey, uh, actually moving away from a carnivore diet, that was sort of what catalyzed me discovering, uh, the work of Ray Peat, but I actually came about it through this, uh, lens of, or an awareness of lipofuscin, and that's also referred to as yellow fat. And there is a man who wrote the book on yellow fat, and that is Mr. Bergstrom.

So Adam, if you could talk to us about, uh, lipofuscin and why it sort of has emerged as, uh, almost a pandemic because of the incredible increase in both iron and polyunsaturated fats, which in my understanding are the two primary ingredients or components of lipofuscin. Those are the main ones. And, uh, you know, I've written 12 e-books on yellow fat, and I started the 13th until I realized that if 12 doesn't make my case, nothing's going to work, so I gave that up and moved on to other things.

But lipofuscin, according to Wikipedia, is an exact measurement of age. You can take other animals, like fish and bears and whatever, and you can measure exactly how old they are, to the months almost, by how much lipofuscin can accumulate in various organs and places. Well, Wikipedia made a mistake because it's not the chronological marker; it's a biological marker. So humans, since, you know, we can go from vegan to keto, and that's a big variety of differences, so people have lipofuscin build up in different degrees. Ultimately, it's three of the seven deadly sins of aging. If you're familiar with, uh, Aubrey de Grey, he's he's he's the drug version of, uh, research and aging, and he's done his homework. He found seven major ways of aging; three of them have to do with, uh, lipofuscin. One is called glycation, and you would think it would be sugar, but it's actually omega-3 fatty acids that do most of the damage and its various metabolites.

So I've never found a case of yellow fat disease—and right in those 12 books and other research too—there's never been a case of omega-6s causing yellow fat disease; it's only omega-3. So it's not PUFAs, which are polyunsaturated fatty acids; it is, uh, which are highly unsaturated fatty acids, and it's DHA, EPA, various other related ones, and ALA, which is your standard omega-3 fatty acids. So, excuse me, omega-3 flax oil, chia seed oil, things like that. So they will cause yellow fat disease if you take enough of it. And diabetes, which is supposed to be a sugar disease, is actually an omega-3 disease. And if you're lucky, most people won't notice, uh, yellow fat disease because instead of dying at 90, they die at 80. And people don't really think long-track; they think, I eat something now, I got a disease, or I got a sickness, or I got mercury poisoning—shows up pretty quickly. But in this case, you just shave off 10 or 20 years of your life, and because that's such a long time, people don't really notice it. Omega-3 fatty acids—it's known that they cause yellow fat disease in every other animal, from bear to salmon—but humans, they ignore the fact that we're just as susceptible; we're kind of in mid-range, uh, more toward actually upper mid-range of being susceptible. The worst are the alligator and crocodiles, who can actually turn into rubber—actually rubberized—within a matter of weeks by eating, uh, fish that have eaten algae that have DHA or EPA in them.

And right now they have a problem with farm-raised salmon; they, uh, they accumulate DHA very quickly, which is okay if they're 100 feet under water in the dark, under pressure—cold. It's like the 10, 20, 30 oil, you know, you use the different oil in your car at an altitude than you do in the desert, blow out the tubers. So the same type of thing happens; it actually extends your life if you're going to live a couple hundred feet below the sea and in the Arctic. But once you take a salmon and put them in shallow water, then they start to deteriorate very quickly. So they give them a drug called saxaquin, made by Monsanto, and that actually preserves them and slows down the yellow fat disease so that they can slaughter the fish and sell it to people, and the meat isn't noticeably rotten. So anyway, that's basically the, uh, the summation of what's the problem with omega-3 fatty acids.

Okay, terrific. So there's a there's a couple things in there, um, starting with, uh, you mentioned glycation, right? And a lot of people look at that as sort of, uh, oxidative stress caused by sugar. You're saying it's actually oxidative stress caused in the presence of omega-3s. Now, would I be, uh, on the right track by saying that that, uh, oxidation of sugar causing those, uh, glycation products only happens when there is both sugar and peroxidized, uh, unsaturated fats? Is it lipid peroxidation that causes the sugar to turn into the, uh, AGEs?

No, maybe it's pretty well like that, but you can you can't get glycation or caramelization if you take your food and you, uh, subject it to dry heat. You'll notice it gets caramelized, and that basically is what happens in aging, but in the human body, it's a minor a minor part of our aging process, and the liver usually handles it. You have an efficient liver; takes care of that. Only when the sugar turns into lactic acid, that is the problem. And of course, Otto Warburg pointed that out, but people have mistakenly taken his information and said the sugar that causes the problem—no, it's the slow burning of the sugar that makes the lactic acid. Similar to if you have a fire going full blast, you don't have any smoke, but if you have a fire that's smoldering, you get smoke all over the place. Anyone who's seen Western movies where you got to keep the fire going so that they don't the enemy doesn't notice you out there on the plains, uh, knows that story, and that's exactly what happens. William Budd actually cured that—he didn't cure it; he maintained diabetes—in about the 1840s or 50s. He actually reasoned that since the sugar is being lost and the diet that sugar isn't causing the problem, the body is taking the protein and converting it to sugar and taking people's muscles away, and they die. So he would give them 12 ounces of white sugar and 4 ounces of honey a day, at an average measure the sugar coming out—not take too much or too less—and keep people alive for years. They didn't need any drugs; just plain sugar—the very thing that is blamed for diabetes—what they call sugar diabetes—is actually cured by taking the sugar and keeping it from eating the muscles away.

Fantastic. Yeah, and it definitely, uh, raises some questions when you look at those, uh, extremely restrictive, um, interventions where you have people who are either on, uh, something's going around the, uh, protein-sparing modified, uh, fast. And so yeah, you can survive if you were to only eat protein and literally no fat or sugar, but the body will catabolize any tissues, and it'll turn that food that you're eating into sugar. But if you flip it, what you realize is if you eat nothing but sugar, and if you were to literally only eat sugar, you would save off the catabolism; you wouldn't eat your muscles nearly as quickly as you eat your muscles on a protein, uh, sparing modified fast, which is sort of counter-intuitive. But in any case, um, thank you. So can you shed some light on how the omega-3s that are contributing to lipofuscin have sort of, uh, erupted and become far more prevalent and hard to avoid by like exponential levels in the human diet?

Well, the real problem is not so much the human body diet as the drugs that we're taking to make it additional. But people on fish diets who have no choice—they buy the seashore; that's all they eat—actually their longevity isn't that high. Look at the, uh, the Apache Indians; they had restrictions—no fish. Geronimo never ate a fish in his entire life. Now, he lived to 80, and how did he die? He fell off his horse while he was drunk and got pneumonia by lying in a puddle, so he probably would have lived into his 90s otherwise. So obviously, right here at UCSB in Santa Barbara, there's a university that claims now that the Indian tribes were so healthy because they had equal parts of omega-3s and omega-6s. Well, that's nonsense. The Navajos also banned fish; the Hopi did; the Apache did. They lived fine and long; in fact, desert people, despite all that sun beating down on them and everything, they have—they're notorious for living longer. The Bedouins, for instance; if you go other places and the Mongols. So a lot of desert people who were inland that didn't have any access to omega-3s, uh, they did fine in their aging.

Okay. Um, so you you would really, uh, you would not, uh, lay the blame or the the root cause of—okay, let me put it this way: Do you think that humans, modern humans, are experiencing unprecedented levels, accumulating unprecedented levels of lipofuscin?

Yes, because they're, uh, we're so brainwashed since, uh, 1928 when experiments were done claiming that omega-3s and omega-6s were essential fatty acids. Actually, the researchers that did that—a man and wife, husband a married team—they, uh, they only actually proved omega-6s. It wasn't until we made omega-3s an essential fatty acid by the World Health Organization—not by researchers—they declared it—it's an essential fatty acid, I think in the 90s, finally. So, uh, suddenly we have a billion-dollar—more than a billion-dollar industry a year—and even the drug companies are getting into DHA and EPA, making various drug versions. There were only two or three drugs available from two two companies, I believe, and now there's about 40 companies in a race to make bigger and better DHA and EPA. So it's absolutely ridiculous, and you're going to see a lot more aging. They want us to believe that the aging—we're living longer now—and actually there's cases of people living into 140, 145, and even 156, if you check back in history books. I used to marvel—I read a lot of old history books that I got a hold of, and easy to do now in the internet, even easier—and people were living a lot longer than they're telling us now. If you averaged it out, people didn't live as long—cholera, war, pandemics, you name it—real pandemics back then, when they had bubonic plague in England in 1666 or whenever it was, and those kind of things wiped people out. But meanwhile, if you escape that, people live long. You'll find a lot of cases if you even go in standard history and look at our, uh, Newton probably isn't a good example, but a lot of the people lived very long back in ancient Greece, in Rome, and in history, even going to Wikipedia to find that out.

Okay, so long story short, people are dying, and they're going to be dying sooner, and there weren't all these lipofuscin diseases. Let me name a few: Alzheimer's, muscular sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, autism, um, Parkinson's disease, and our whole list of them. If you look at it, they're packed full of lipofuscin. Brown bowel disease is a variant of yellow fat disease in your colon, and now they found out brown bowel disease is actually Crohn's disease; it's just a little less serious when they call it that. Your colon turns completely brown, and then Crohn's disease comes out of that. That's that's a recent discovery now. And in fact, so many of these so-called aging diseases, progressive diseases, are really progressing merely because of omega-3 fatty acids.

Okay, and so you got right into part of it, um, to sort of, uh, put the bioenergetic, uh, lens on that, I what I guess I'm hearing you say is sort of like, um, the yellow fat tends to accumulate in these, uh, highly metabolically active tissues where we have like a lot of mitochondria, like the brain, uh, the spinal cord, uh, and also the intestines, right? And so because it contributes to biological age, you see, uh, diseases that are sort of characteristic of accelerated aging in a tissue-specific way. So that's why you see, you know, like even young people who are autistic, young people who have bowel diseases, in like always rising numbers, um, and okay, so but the lipofuscin forms when you have the, uh, oxidized omega-3 plus iron. Iron is an essential part; it just takes a fraction of iron—one percent of iron is in lipofuscin; that's all it takes. But the iron isn't the main thing; it's actually the lipofuscin. In fact, the iron wouldn't be dangerous really if it wasn't for the lipofuscin. It's essential for aging; you can still age without it. There's other ways for metabolism to be sabotaged, but lipofuscin in our society is the major reason people are aging right now. Genetics play a small part, but contrary to popular belief, it's a two-way street. They're finding that out now with RNA and DNA that you can have with what they call, uh, epigenetics. And actually, there's another type of genetics that hasn't been mentioned for a long time; it's transgenetics—like how do you work, uh, uh, say, uh, nitrogen gas or helium gas or or radon, or how do you work those into those? They don't even interact; they're called the unsociable gases because they don't work, and yet they can affect you. You can use xenon and to relax a person for, uh, surgery; it doesn't have anything to do with the DNA. And just like our blood, which is time—they want to blame genetics for, uh, your blood and circadian rhythms—there's no there's no DNA in a red blood cell; there's not even a nuclei; it's just a plain disk, and yet it's time for circadian nutrition. Definitely, they know it's time without any genetic explanation.

Okay. Um, let's, uh, take a step forward. We know we don't want to eat, uh, fish oil or probably too much fish. So there is, of course, uh, this amorphous and emergent, uh, uh, series of dietary advice, um, on the internet, all because apparently everyone discovered Peat, uh, around the time that I did, uh, in the years following. What do you think about the quote-unquote Peat diet, this idea of, um, avoiding polyunsaturated fats, uh, prioritizing the metabolism of sugar versus fat, um, let's start there.

Well, you know, since 1976, I've been practicing something called solar nutrition, which is chronobiological, uh, nutrition. Now, I was into, uh, back when I was managing health—good stories I read about omega-3s when they first came out—DHA and EPA, and it worked for the Eskimos and the Inuit, and etc. But then I reasoned, they die in their 30s, so no wonder they don't have any heart disease. And that's come out now that the whole those testing green gangs were falsified anyway. And the Inuit knew that if they ate too many fish, they would die because the Canadian government tried to give them, uh, fishing gear and nets to fish, but they knew they would die a horrible death if they ate nothing but fish. Now, fish—if you're starving—and some fish are better than others. If you eat a cod, it's a dry fish; you're not going to get much DHA unless you eat the liver—throw away the liver if you have a good fish. And let's take longevity—a salmon, well, lives nine or ten years, maybe if you're lucky. You take, uh, orange roughy; they are the lowest on the food chain for DHA—absolute lowest—200 years. Hmm, slight difference there if you kind of compare the two. So anyway, some fish are dry; they they're oily fish throughout their bodies. Sardines, anchovies, things like that are going to have more omega-3. And by the way, if something has value, like a walnut, I it's high in omega-3s, but I eat half of a walnut or a walnut a day in the morning because it has other factors. And we want a little bit of poison; if you—that's called hormesis. For instance, 65 times more than the background radiation kept rats alive an extra couple years; that's pretty amazing. So it's toxicity doesn't go like that; it's a straight line; it goes J-shaped. At first, you take a little bit; it stimulates the immune system; makes you live longer. So that I don't avoid omega-3s; I just don't supplement with them. I don't take cod liver oil, uh, but once in a while, I might even have an anchovy—coming from a Swedish background—but I eat it about maybe, uh, once every six months or something like that—about a can of anchovies—just to get a little immune reaction. Because if you avoid something completely, it can cause even more problems if you are exposed to it unwittingly. And in our society, if you buy any kind of processed food, you never know for sure what you're going to be exposed to; there's just no doubt about it. We eat whole foods because we're by a farmer's market mostly; every once in a while we buy a little, uh, processed food, but almost all of it is whole. A lot of people don't have that advantage—living in certain food deserts, etc., etc. I know people can't even get a hold of an orange, much less an organic one, in parts of this country. Well, here we have oranges coming out the wazoo; they're all over the place.

Certainly. Yeah, I definitely at the very at the very least I try to convince people that they want to eat foods that don't have a list of ingredients, you know, because the moment there's ingredients, you really don't know. And even before then, when you're looking at something like an orange or a piece of meat, you don't know what that was watered with; you don't know what that was fed; you don't know about the production or the transport. So yeah, there definitely are a lot of wild cards.

Um, okay, can I get you maybe a little bit more specifically on, uh, the idea of basically maintaining, um, glucose metabolism over ketosis? Is that something that you would advise, and if so, how might you recommend a person, uh, do that?

Well, ketosis actually killed my father because he had diabetes, and they took him off sugar, so he left his planet at 54. And I had no idea at that time; I thought sugar diabetes—you know, you believe what you hear—and, uh, I later on studied things like chromium and disease and diabetes and things like that, not realizing that the simple answer is sugar. And even back then, as a as when I was out of school, I used to blow my uncle's mind by going into a Chinese restaurant, getting those teeth in the little cups, putting half sugar in it, half tea, and drinking about 20 cups of it. So I was probably costing the restaurant money because I took so much of their sugar into that cup, and I did it kind of to show off. But now I've been experimenting with sugar, buying it as much as 25-pound bags at a time and eating a lot of it, and I'll tell you one thing for people who are subject to heart attacks at night—waking up and taking a little sugar, a little sugar and cream and mix it together just before they go back to sleep—you're gonna save a lot of people's lives from so-called nighttime heart attacks or heart failure at night or or the various type of breathing—lack of breathing—diseases they've named for for dying in your sleep, because it's the most common time to die in your sleep, I believe, or during the day, actually, is three in the morning, if you leave out wars and things of that nature. But anyway, keto, uh, a balanced diet is good; I basically low in the food chain, but I include some protein, like eggs and dairy at this point. And if I when I went to New Zealand, I looked in the cow's eyes and hadn't been able to eat a hamburger with a clear conscience, so I've had a few here and there, but, uh, I think the healthiest diet is low in the food chain but with some meat because it helps maintain a body's total body acidity—not not just the blood because the blood is a buffer; it doesn't tell you anything about the total body acidity—but you need a little meat for help, or if you don't do that, eggs, or it can't be non-fertilized for vegetarians. And, uh, you can survive quite well—look at, by just seeing the turbine—tornado—he's 111 now, and he was running 25-mile marathons at 100 years old, and he if you look at his diet, I think the most, uh, dairy he ate was it was a little milk, and he ate no meat at all and no eggs, and he's 111. So low in the food chain works better, but there's always exceptions to the rule, uh, a person we're on—divorce—so a lot of people, if they like me, uh, and eat it, it's certainly going to be better than what the the Great Reset has planned for us to eat.

Definitely. Okay. Um, I definitely, uh, have noticed significant personal benefit from eating plenty

Of sugar. And when I was first uh, getting into it, especially coming off of carnivore, uh, it was sort of a no-brainer that uh, eating sometimes just a spoon of sugar, or two or three, uh, would be a foolproof and a very effective uh, stress reduction intervention. Um, so it does seem like uh, what you're saying is that we ought to be running on sugar in ketosis is perhaps uh, worth avoiding.

Um, now in more practical terms, like in in sort of like a protocol uh, if you would um, you don't think that there's because some people say like, oh, you really wouldn't want to eat a whole bunch of sugar all at once, spike your blood sugar and then let it crash; they say that's terrible and that you know you should just do a little bit spaced out throughout the day. Where do you fall on that, or is it a yes, no, maybe? It's a yes, no, maybe, exactly. Uh, now, best not to eat a whole bunch of sugar, but if you have an infection or something like that, they used to cure bed sores with it and all kinds of things. I've read a lot of nurses' manuals, and the modern ones, when they get someone asked about that and they say, oh no, that can't be true, but if you go back into the older nursing books and magazines and journals, you find out that was common; it worked really well for getting rid of infections. The other thing, surprisingly, that did in the 1930s, they knew that one of the best anti- uh, the best things for promoting your life is uric acid, and now it's a bad guy too. They used to give people plain uric acid and cure all kinds of battle wounds and diseases and everything. Aloe has a certain chemical in it that just reverts to uric acid, so there's many ways. Urine contains uric acid, but you don't have to drink the urine; you just can take uric acid, buy it in a 55-gallon drum really cheaply. And of course, that's why medicine abandoned it, because I read about that first in Scientific American in the 1937 edition, where they went into all the benefits of uric acid. Sugar and uric acid, the very simple things are our medicines, but anything they want to patent, things to make us uh, eat those kind of things instead of the natural things in life. And believe me, shamans do better than a lot of medical diseases now.

Now, don't get me wrong, every once in a while they have some kind of miracle cure, even though they called it a rain dance, you know, they do take a person's heart out and put it back in, and then they put it in backwards and sideways and show off and say, look, that person is alive because of us, but what they don't say is how many people they kill with their procedures that they don't mention, and it's kind of a crap shoot. You go to a hospital, you have a chance to survive with the things they do, but they kill more people if you look into it. It's supposedly the third cause of death in in modern society. It isn't what they call medical mistakes, is what's three. In other words, the doctor gives the wrong drug; that's what they're adding, but what they do correctly, as even Alec pointed out in the 70s, kills many more people than what they do incorrectly, so it really is the number one cause of death now is people having a disease, cancer, the metabolic ones especially, going into the hospital and being killed with chemotherapy, radiation, whatever else they have to give them.

Right, right, definitely. Uh, the short-term health care, that's an easy case to make, but I would even say that, you know, if you look at the first two, what is it, cancer and heart disease, um, the medical establishment loves those because in their narrative that's all about your genetics, and then they can patent gene-based therapies to deal with those, whereas I would even make the case that uh, their misinformation that is paid for and sponsored to be spread all over uh, regarding cancer and heart disease leads to specifically more cancer and heart disease, so they're actually drumming up their numbers on those first two, which one could argue is good because then it keeps those two in the lead over their own mistakes that are too blatant to be written down in the other way. Right.

Um, okay. Uh, you mentioned aloe; it's the uh, emodin, is that what's in there that uh, mimics uric acid or converts to uric acid? Uh, I forget the exact chemical; I think it might be that that that converts into it. Right. Now, as soon as we mentioned aloe vera, Gal's eyes lit up right away because she is really into aloe, and it's worked for me for anything from an abscess to a lot of things; it is a miracle here, and we have plants growing outside the back door right here behind us, about 15 feet from where I'm sitting right now, and use them regularly to uh, hold in the mouth for for multiple purposes. So aloe is very, very good, and it's better to get it, get a plant for yourself instead of taking the ones that are stabilized with citric acid or other things that you get in the market, but anything, anything better than nothing, I suppose.

Right, right. Yeah, very uh, multi-purpose uh, plant medicine. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is the modern, by the way, that converts the plan to uric acid. They knew that also when they use leech therapy on people, it turns out they make uric acid, and this was all in this 1937 article in uh, in Scientific American. There are books written on urine therapy and all of that, and that one article in Scientific American was more revealing than anything I've read the entire books about urine therapy, leech therapy, uric acid, aloe, etc. They had it all down in one scientific article in 1937. It's sort of like we're moving backwards, you know, in many ways we are. Uh, the main thing is not even the doctor's fault, as Evan Ellick pointed out; he wrote a book called Medical Nemesis, by the way, which I recommend everybody read; it's for free on the internet; you don't have to uh, you don't have to pay for it. And uh, he basically figured out what was going to happen and what was happening then, and no one noticed. What we have now is we've become a medical uh, basically a medical establishment medicine; it's not so much the industrial military complex as it is the medical complex, because they're basically taking over the world now where they're responsible for our health. In other words, you don't know your own body; we know it so much better, and we can have robots look at you over the internet and tell what's going on. You know, back in the days, doctors actually tasted their patients' urine and did things like that; they were so close to it. Dr. Beaumont, who knew more about digestion back in the 1830s and 1820s than other people, had a patient with a hole in his stomach, so he fed him things through that hole for about 15 years to know every food and how quickly it digested, so a lot of people, when people are guessing about digestion, just go back to that old book and find out. And by the way, to to see what it was like, he would stick his tongue in the opening to the stomach and taste what the acid was tasting like and how acidic as it was. Uh, that's perhaps a little extreme, but it just shows you how close the doctor was to the patient at one time. And because I do something called mind hacking, where the body will actually tell the story of what people's problems are with with no dousing or any trick things, you just get a hold of a person's feet, turn them, and ask them questions about what's bugging them, and it will either register in the left foot for male, right foot and female. Why? There's a lot of theories, but it does; it's infallible for finding out who is the matter with a person, and that's all wise; I've never found an exception to the rule connected to why and when and what is wrong with us.

Incredibly interesting. Um, I wanted to talk to you about Tai Chi. Uh, it's something that I've uh, derived value from; I think I probably haven't even scratched the surface of why it's good and why it's valuable, and I'd love to get your thoughts on it. You know, I'm kind of inexperienced on Tai Chi, except I happen to be in the right place at the right time. Have you heard of Wu Dang Chen? He is actually the Chinese representative for the entire world for Tai Chi for the Wu Dang style of Tai Chi, and uh, I, he came to a ranch that I used to live at and did all his nine-day workshops, so basically he was charging several thousand dollars, and he just let me in for free, and so I was doing these nine-day workshops meant for Tai Chi experts and everything and just trying to follow along and doing it and taking lots of notes at the same time. I found this person very amazing; how he escaped from China, his life here is well worth researching on the on the internet. And but when you watch his YouTube videos, it doesn't even begin to show the power of this man. So anyway, I learned so much about Tai Chi from him in those nine-day workshops and just interacting with him, because uh, my buddy and his wife who owned this ranch in Fayetteville, Texas, he became a personal friend of theirs, and so we hung out together. And basically, Tai Chi uh, works with the eight extraordinary meridians, while Qigong only works with the twelve; it's for healing your diseases, while Tai Chi is for longevity and for spiritual purposes. And after studying with the man, I I believe just about everything he said; the in his way of the uh, I don't know if you're familiar with the black dragon, the white dragon, and the red dragon and all these techniques that he talks about, but anyway, they're very extraordinary. And uh, I'll give you an example; at one point he said that most Tai Chi and Thai teachers are doing dancing; they're not really doing Tai Chi. So one time he had this experienced student of this, and he did a technique, and Chen said, you're not grounded. And uh, so he did it again, you're still not grounded. He did it a third time, and I felt it; I was in the back of the room, and I felt this energy, and Chen said, now you're grounded. So whatever that grounding is, it can affect you across the room, and I experienced it many times hanging around with Wu Dang Chen. So he he stopped calling himself Master Chen because he figured too many people are calling themselves masters that even studied with him, and he said he was only two-thirds of the master at that time, but he has lived the life you saw in that movie, what was it, Flying Tiger something or other? You remember the name of that movie? Forgotten. No, it's pretty sure that that actually is the type of life and adventure and sword fights he was in, training the Chinese militia, all kinds of stories, and he had a master, a woman who was lived to 130 years old, extraordinary person.

That definitely speaks to uh, some of the experience I had in the class that I took. Um, the idea that you can make the forms and you can go through the motions, but and that's like the extrinsic uh, representation, but there is an intrinsic energy that uh, isn't guaranteed, right? And that that idea of the Qi moving uh, internally that then uh, fortifies or grounds uh, the the practice or the form as you do it. And uh, the teacher I had uh, basically encouraged people to to dance anyway, because at least in the uh, in the attempts to dance, you give yourself the chance to start filling that in with the actual Chi, you know, and grounding that and filling that out.

Um, Tai Chi spoke to me uh, a couple of different ways, but then especially when I started to uh, look into Ray's work in uh, metabolism, and I realized that uh, she, the concept of Chi can really be likened or parallel to uh, like the more robust metabolism inside the cell, and that it's not uh, guaranteed that you're going to have that, so you'll have some people who might look uh, older or look uh, less outwardly uh, you know, they don't have that gym body or whatever of looking like an athlete, but their Chi is actually really strong, and their insides are really strong because they have that strong robust metabolism.

Um, maybe you could speak to this; I know it's uh, commonly tossed around, but I'm not actually sure how valid it is. Have you heard the uh, story that George Lucas, you know, Mr. Star Wars, the author, that he was uh, inspired to write about the Jedi uh, by hearing the accounts of Tai Chi masters in the boxing rebellion? Is that something? Did you realize that? But it makes perfect sense because there is an energy like that; Chi does exist. I've studied with several people who could generate it, even in traditions that uh, wouldn't have called it that. Now, I first studied for 14 years with a master called Adono Lay Swami Nityananda Saraswati; he preferred to call himself Swami Diddy Gritty because he wanted to get down to the nitty-gritty. He could definitely manipulate energy at a different distance; I witnessed him do it many times. In fact, one time a man came in that was testing us with electronic equipment for our fields and what wearing various amulets and things could do, so at one time he went, someone said, if I put a shell on my forehead, isn't the position of my neck enough to cause a difference? And he said, sure, uh, let let me check and find out. Adonolay was sitting in a chair in the room, and he went at me, and I'm looking at him like, why are you looking at me? And anyway, this man measured the electronic field and everything measured backwards, everything, so he got so frustrated, he said, I'm going back to my lab, so he took off; it was a thunderstorm going on; there was absolute silence, and then Adonolay said, it's exceedingly easy to manipulate kinesiological energy during a thunderstorm, and we all laugh because it messed with his machine. Well, actually, he didn't; for years I thought he had messed with the machine, but what he had done is reversed everybody's field in the room, and I figured it out about 10 years later, maybe more, and he hit me on the head and said, now you're getting smart, brother. So uh, so the field is very real, and Chen did the same thing; I saw him manipulate, do amazing things. In fact, he claims he could be in two places at once, and my closest to experience that is one time we were out on an old unused tennis court at the ranch that he did the workshops, and a plane flew over, and I definitely felt an energy surge between Wu Dang Chen and the plane, so I thought that was really weird. We went inside, and he said, oh well, we were out there, by the way, I went up onto a plane passing overhead; was talking to a lady, had a nice conversation with her. Now, whether he read my mind that I have had that feeling or whatever, can't explain it, but that kind of thing happened regularly on a daily basis, several times a day with both Master Chen and a Sufi teacher of mine, Adam Sarhan, and the Donale and a rabbi called Michael Shapiro too. So I've been lucky enough to study with some of the greats, including the Maharishi and the the old grapes they had and Swami Sachin Dananda, people like that; I've been around a lot of them, and I've seen very real things, and I can guarantee she is as real as it gets, speaking to somebody uh, maybe alive today.

Do you think that there's uh, as a I would frame it as a pro-metabolic intervention, Tai Chi uh, and maybe you can, you know, confirm or uh, comment on this, but in my experience practicing it, it seems uh, to qualify as pro-metabolic, just in that it uh, essentially, I think Ray has even said that um, it sort of trains a person to hypoventilate, to under breathe, and in the process uh, generate a lot more warmth, and I've found that to be true, as well as um, you know, and it's like you can warm yourself up by running up a flight of stairs or going for a jog, but in the process of doing that, you're going to generate a lot of lactic acid just incidentally, whereas doing something slowly and mindfully like Tai Chi, where there's essentially no stress, it seems like an all-win situation where you're getting warmer and you're generating more carbon dioxide and you're breathing less. Do you think that stacks up?

Yes. Now, you know, I've cherry-picked from Ray P because frankly, I have a lot of disagreements with him, yet I regard him as a uh, as a solvent; there's he, his brain and his uh, intellect amazes me frankly, and I would have never written that those books on yellow fat disease if it wasn't for him, because when I first heard his diet, I heard something about orange juice and milk and thought that's ridiculous, then I started listening to them and realized this guy is a cut above anything I've I've come across uh, since Adonolay and some of the teachers I studied with back in the day, but he is in a class by his own. So a lot of the things even on solar nutrition, I was doing really well; I mean, massage therapists would say, wow, your body's really loose; by the time you get uh, get up in your 70s and 80s, you should be having problems like you don't have that stiffness there, so but I started having some problems; I had an edema problem start; I had what's called petechiae; they're little blood spots that form on you, and they say it can be very dangerous; that there could be a minor thing; I started getting in the 90s, and then I when I would wipe my ass, I would get a uh, I'd have to be really careful that it didn't bleed, and what it was, about five other things anyway that were wrong. And after getting into repeat and just adding the oranges and giving up tuna, which I was eating every day, by the way, tuna and mayo, I was addicted to it; leftover now is are about uh, over 200 mayonnaise jars, I swear to God, for just living here that I use that I saved; I just gave away uh, 12, 24 of them, 20 or 25 mayonnaise jars to someone to try and clear the place out of mayonnaise jars from my addiction at the time. Well, it led to all these problems; now I can wipe my butt with sandpaper and there's no problem; the bleeding gums went away; uh, the edema went back, and one ankle was slightly larger than the other, returned to normal; the petechiae disappeared; the easy bruising disappeared; a whole bunch of other things, including the leg that wouldn't set down all the way into like a semi-lotus position just got fixed, so all these things happen, and I have repeat probably saved my life because the last case of edema, it would only come on in what do you call it, every six months or something, but it got serious, and I thought, holy cow, I'm on the way out here. Well, I owe that to Ray P. Now I've maintained a uh, a solar diet and eat something, eat things and uh, olive oil and things that do have some omega-3s in them; I certainly don't buy anything out of the store and add oils like that; we only use coconut oil for oil pulling, and our main oil is is either butter or it's uh, olive oil, and uh, that works fine. I do I I studied a person named Emmanuel Reviša, who I became obsessed with; he's the only one that has an actual comprehensive view of cancer and other diseases and how acid alkalinity works; his textbook, thanks to a man called the that crazy pharmacist, I don't even remember his real name, has the entire book there, and to me it's a masterpiece of uh, of uh, cancer knowledge for people who who really want to know what causes cancer. We have magic bullets, you know; there's a dog, what is it, a uh, some kind of dog dewormer now that actually I know someone that got cured by it, but the only person I know who has a comprehensive understanding of cancer was Emmanuel Reviša in his 1961 textbook uh, that he wrote, 776 pages, and it's on the internet, internet for free, and he lived to 101, lost his medical license and got it back at 100 just before he went on this cosmic vacation. So he noticed that omega-3s can be useful for some therapies; for instance, uh, I would recommend omega-3s for several things; number one, if you have a transplant, it knocks out the immune system, so great, you want to take omega-3s until your body gets used to the other organ like that, so there are times

To take it, anything can be a medicine in certain ways. But if you take it all the time, and you shut off your immunity, not your best choice; not your highest choice. Okay, talk to me about weightlifting. It's something that you have, uh, witnessed come into existence, and I recall hearing you speak about it on a number of interviews. Um, maybe talk to us about why it's good to lift weights and build muscle. And then, if you'd like to speak about maybe why it goes wrong, and how well, what goes wrong is all the steroids and things they take now when they're muscle-bound.

But I was, uh, lucky enough, I did a hitchhiking trip, got stranded in Dalton, Alabama, so through the panhandle of Florida and whatever, without eating. I arrived back at Van Nuys, California, 120 pounds at six foot two, six foot one and three-quarters, exactly 121 pounds. I was basically a string bean. I got a job at Litton Industry, actually I resumed my job at Litton Industry, uh, guidance and control division. And a bodybuilder came in because back then bodybuilders weren't getting paid that much. His name was Don Peters. You can look him up on the internet; I think he's on YouTube and stuff. He went on his cosmic vacation in 1997 because he ended up getting into steroids. When I knew him though, he wasn't into steroids, and yet he was perfectly flexible. He was competing in Mr. America contest. He, uh, was best friends with a lot of the other bodybuilders that he introduced me to, uh, at Muscle Beach in Venice. And, uh, he kind of took me on as this student because I was—he called me Wildly E. Coyote because I was so skinny at the time—and I built up some muscle working out with him at the Olympic Gym in L.A. and places like that. He, uh, he worked out with a friend of Schwarzenegger, but Schwarzenegger played a really, really mean trick on them, and so they became enemies after that, in two rival places. Uh, what is the man's name he studied with, uh, Gangnam Ventura Boulevard rather than the Goldstein crowd? You can't think of his name now, the man who didn't want you to do squats and kick people out of his gym if he ever saw him doing a squat. His name begins with a V, and I'm just facing out on it right now. But anyway, uh, I found out that, uh, that I think bodybuilding is extremely healthy.

I have a very strange metabolism; I just skinny out if I don't bodybuild. And the only way I gain weight is with, with weights. Now, I did learn one thing that the really flexible bodybuilders, uh, change the position. Uh, for instance, at one time I would do a triceps press down and lock up my neck, and I couldn't figure what was going on. So I went to a Donald Lay, and he said, "Torque plus repetition, uh, it leads to stress." In other words, if you put a lot of pressure and you repeat it, you lock up your muscles. So any exercise I did after that, I did a slight variation, even turning my neck one way; never had a problem. But if I started to do—I was tired—I did three or four in a row, I could feel it starting to tighten up, and then stop. Because after he told me that, I went and locked my neck up again, and he said, "I told you to stop doing that." So anyway, uh, the really flexible bodybuilders—if you're familiar with Charles Glass, he does a back flip on the stage with all that muscle—he has a back foot, and Don Peters the same way. He could reach all the way back and touch the floor, and you look at his body back then without steroids, if you see the photographs on the internet. And then he could go forward and put his nose between his, uh, basically below his knees; that's how flexible he was, and he was strong too. With a piece of leather, he could take one of those big nails and just bend it like that in his hand. So, uh, I think it's very healthy; it, uh, it's metabolically active rather than the fat you carry around, and I think it leads to longevity if you don't do too much of it, and you make sure you recover from every workout.

Now that takes a delta level of sleep, which is basically what you call deep sleep, not dream sleep, but deep sleep. If you can generate that—and I had a teacher, a Donald A, who could generate delta in his waking state, so it can't be done—and I met another Swami named Nadi Bravonaga. I saw the brainwave; he played a musical instrument and only came into theta for a couple split seconds for the entire performance, measured with a brainwave on stage. He was in delta, and that's supposed to be impossible, of course. In fact, Dr. Bob Wright, who was a friend of mine who measured the brain waves, said he did; he only came out twice, and of course that's impossible, but he did it anyway. He could also hold his breath for 30 minutes in a vacuum chamber. The monkey died, the candle went out. And at one time I would read these new age accounts of a yogi who was buried for 40 days and nights and survived, and I thought that was nonsense until I got a hold of the British medical records, and there were actually a number of people who could do it. And the British thought, "This fool is going to kill himself; he wants to be buried, we'll oblige him." So they buried him and put him in like a big casket underground, put a, uh, a locked, uh, building over it, had sentries 24 hours a day, so no trickery could occur, and dug him out. Well, he was—they had to do a little bit to revive him, but they did. It was such a sensation in the British military that they, uh, they shot off guns, the Raja; it was a famous episode. And the British were so fascinated because they realized it was carbon dioxide; that's the repeat connection; what he always talks about, carbon dioxide. So they actually measured every food that they had available for its carbon dioxide value, and they found out the one that had the most carbon dioxide value was donkey's milk, which is all that man ate—donkey's milk—and lived in a cave, no sun, no Vitamin D, just donkey's milk, and he was basically like a traveling, uh, he would get paid to be buried. And there were several people doing that, called pictures around India, and it's a very real deal. Because at first I thought, "No one can hold their breath for, uh, for 40 days; that's impossible." A Colonel—his last name escaped me—and the British learned the technique. Now I don't know how long he could do it, but basically he could be pronounced dead and was alive. This is one point I disagree with Ray Peat on; it's hibernation; he's not for hibernation at all. But there are studies now showing that hibernation could, uh, be the answer for a lot of medical problems where you could put people asleep in a hibernation safe. The research is going on in Seattle extensively; they've even found the genes are in the spleen and a whole bunch of information. So I've been studying hibernation for years. A Donald Lay called it Hibernia and said it was a yogi technique and it wasn't anything new, and that humans could do it just as well as a bear. Particularly a bear is the type of hibernation that you can wake up; someone comes in the cave, you can come out of that hibernation state, take care of business, go back to sleep. Most animals when they hibernate, their temperature is too low to come back; they're not aware, so you could, uh, kill them like the bats now that are being attacked during hibernation; they actually get a fungi that, that kills them while they're hibernating. So even hibernation can have its downside. Incredibly interesting.

Um, back, back to weightlifting for just a moment. Um, I really like that you brought it, uh, around to the idea of recovery and how, uh, recovery in a large part hinges upon your ability to enter a delta wave state of sleep. It's something I've been aware of, thanks to my dad, for, uh, some years now. But you know, I've always looked at, uh, lifting weights as sort of like this, um, environmental enrichment mechanism, if you will, or like a supplement to the fact that we're not living the lives that we, uh, were sort of evolved to, you know, like chasing tigers or running away from tigers or whatever. And in a large part, I see it as a privilege because we don't have our actual life on the line when we're in the gym, and therefore we can, uh, you know, choose to do our tricep push downs one way or another, and there's not something coming to kill us. Ah, but again, you know, entering that sort of high energy, uh, focused state in the gym, of course you're going to increase your cortisol and your stress hormones and all of that, and it's one of the most frequently cited instances of hormesis. But I think that a large part of the problems that arise from people lifting weights, especially lay people lifting weights or exercising or running, is that they just add that time, uh, under acute stress and don't accommodate or sort of plan for, uh, the necessary, uh, reciprocal state of deep rest, like you were talking about. And make matters worse, um, gyms are awful; gyms are awful these days. There's always loud music, bright lights, and I see a lot of people who are just there, like getting more excited than they really need to be, right? And they're not focused, and they never take the time to enter that, uh, restorative sleep they were talking about.

Um, so back to the—because it sounds like you had a golden ticket to the golden era of bodybuilding, frankly—that was, in my understanding, uh, sort of the advent of, uh, performance, performance-enhancing drugs. And from what I understand, people were using very, very modest doses of testosterone, uh, amongst others. Um, today I see two, uh, emergent problems, and the first would be on the training side where people do a lot of volume and they do a lot of frequency. And of course, the other one is the abuse of the performance-enhancing drugs and steroids. Um, how, how often were you working out in the gym, uh, with the guy that was training you? Well, you know, because I had a limited understanding, uh, both that time and afterwards, I, I've got results. In fact, my proudest moment in the 80s when I resumed bodybuilding was, uh, was when somebody went up to me and said, "Are you taking steroids?" And man, did I walk out of the gym feeling good that because I wasn't, I wasn't taking any. I was using techniques that Donald Lay told me. He said, "You're too toxic to be bodybuilding now, but if you're going to do it anyway, I'll tell you what to do." So goat cheese, obscene bread, various things like that, using a circadian diet, cold water, believe it or not, which you can gain five pounds in, in 30 minutes by taking cold water. I actually advise some professional bodybuilders—I think it was even Jay Cutler came to me at one time before he was known—when I managed the health food store in Oregon. I was carrying all these, uh, injectable-grade pre-formed amino acids and things like that. Uh, the owner of the store said, "They're not going to buy this." I said, "Oh yeah, the gym deal is hot now." So these professionals would come down, and I was pretty skinny at that time, so it's funny; here I'm giving these big muscle-bound guys advice on how to work out a gym. So many times I've gained a certain amount of physique, but not enough to be in any kind of bodybuilding contest or anything like that. But, uh, I think there's many techniques I've studied from, uh, Mike Mentzer's idea of, you know, high-intensity things and, uh, what is it, uh, Casey Viator is his method. A lot of people know, besides working with Arthur Jones, though, that without doing any techniques, he gained 75 pounds in three days; that's supposed to be physically impossible, but it was recorded in, in, uh, Joe Weider's, uh, Muscle Fitness magazine. And of course, it ruined his chance; he'd won the, uh, I forget what the Weider's name for the Mr. America is, but he won that, and then it ruined his chances for the Mr. Olympia by getting 75 pounds in three days. What weight is, is gas pressure; you can trap gas pressure in muscle, because fat—if you look at it—air is eight times more soluble in fat. So a lot of people were going on to circadian nutrition; can lose weight by tripling their calories. Calories works well for a steam shift or a furnace, but for human beings, we don't operate like that. Any plumber knows that hydraulic pressure is done with pneumatics. So what is the first thing the plumber does when it comes to your house? Goes on the ceiling, because if you take a soda can, pop one in, it pours really slowly, but if you pop the other end, it pours out quickly. That's the same with breathing techniques and yogi and other ways where you can actually deflate yourself, like the guy in the circus who started out skinny, inflated himself to a fat person, and deflated himself every night in multiple performances. So of course doctors can't get their head around that; that bariatrics might have something to do with the barometer, that you can actually use partial pressure, gas pressure in your own body and inflate yourself and get muscles.

Now I learned a lot of those techniques, and they actually do work; you can actually gain weight by your breathing technique. That's—you see, I wrote a book called *The Heart Is Not a Pump* because I found the work of Dr. Rodemont; a man named, uh, what's his name, Tom Cowan wrote a book later about that, but he mistakes the process; he's trying to blame some kind of vortex energy in the heart, and actually it has to do with the breathing. The Chinese have two heart meridians; isn't that interesting? One is for the arteries, and one is for the veins; they don't tell you that though. The one for the arteries is the standard heart meridian, but the heart is not a pump, except it might be a rampart; the real pump is the breathing mechanism in the veins, and that is called the circulation sex meridian or pericardium meridian; both are related to the heart; it takes two heart, uh, meridians. And there are actually people who don't have a beating heart on this planet; it's very, very rare and hard to do; usually it's a yogi or it's an accident of some sort that happens to, like the man in Boston that was written about. So many people, you know, they took the Maori who, uh, they did 50 autopsies on the Maori, and they found heart disease in every one of them; every one of them, but not a single one died from it. And yet they had—what you took Letterman—oh, you only have four percent of opening; you gotta rush to the hospital immediately. None of these Maori died from that because they had grown auxiliary vessels, just like if I want to go to Santa Barbara from here and the freeway is blocked, I just take a side road. Well, the body can do that same thing; they have EEC machine machines that do it, but you can do it from physical exercise too. So they rush people again and kill all these people by putting stents and everything else in their heart when all they have to do is increase their pneumatic power through the lung meridian. Fantastic.

So it seems like then, uh, a lot of the way that building muscle works, or the mechanism that it works, is actually in the change to the local, uh, metabolism in the muscles that are producing the movement that then results in the hypertrophy as those tissues become more accustomed to that, uh, [Music] respiration and therefore pneumatic pressure. Now a lot of people would just be like, "Oh, okay, yeah, because you're producing more carbon dioxide, and that's increasing the glucose utilization." Um, is there, are there other gases, uh, that you would, uh, sort of bring attention to? Yes, when I was into bodybuilding in the 80s, I decided to be scientific about it, so I read approximately 11 bodybuilding books—tougher to cover per month—I had to go to Hollywood to get some of the Australian ones, and then I also read all these women's fitness ones because they had various exercises because I wanted to, I wanted to learn it all and exactly what was going on. Well, I found out a variety of techniques work; Mike Mentzer works, but other techniques work too. And my first enlightening moment was I managed a health food store in Carpinteria, California, and a bicyclist came in, and he had enormous calves. So I said, "Obviously you didn't get those riding the bicycle." He said, "Oh yes I did, but you have to know how to do it." So that has sounded me, and he said the setting has to be complete where you get the—see the difference between a skiing muscle, uh, the semi-calf, what do they call it, the soleus muscle is that, uh, it only has one connection to activate the, uh, the calf muscle, the gastrocnemius; you have to have two connections, so you have to be absolutely straight. So he knew by doing that and all that repetition built this huge muscle. Now after that, I wasn't able to build up my, uh, my, uh, let me think of it now, my lats, my side lats. Don Peters, he would do a light shot with putting his arms out; it looked like a bat, you know, he had such great lats, but I couldn't build them up no matter what I did, all the lat machines. But I went to the beach one time, 86 days in a row, and all I did was a breaststroke, and first I just did it because I liked the breaststroke, so, uh, and I would do it underwater, a lot of it. Well, I would come out of the water, and I couldn't put my arms to my side, and I said, "Well, I'm on to something," so I kept doing it, and I finally grew myself some lats that, uh, for the first time. So all I was doing is the weight of my arms going through the water over and over and over again for a half hour, and I built lats. So there are multiple ways, and a person has to learn their own body and see what does and don't just follow the advice. One of the things that the weed of people say that a muscle either contracts or it doesn't. Well, what was the name of the strong man? I'm forgetting some of these guys now; he could control single muscles in his single fibers of muscles in his body; his name escapes me, a famous bodybuilder, one of the Perry Raider crowd from the Iron Man, old Iron Man magazine, and all the different type of advice they used to have before Weider came and took precedence over Perry Raider and Bob Hoffman, all those guys. So there are multiple ways to do it and find out, especially find out what gives you the joy, man. I love doing that, uh, that breaststroke; I just love cold water, uh, every day, even if it was raining or whatever, I'd go into the water and do that breaststroke. One time they thought I was committing suicide; I think I, I had been down in Hollywood; I wasn't here today during the day, so I had to go at night, so I drove up, threw up all my clothes and ran into the water, and this family's looking at me like, "What, what's that guy doing?" I swam for about 20 minutes and I came back in. So, uh, anyway, whatever brings you joy, and I love to lift weights frankly; it's just a lot of fun. And most gyms—I think, uh, Arlington, Texas, they have a gym where it's deliberately for people who like to grunt and throw the weights down and make noise; even they have to do it outside sometimes that they crack the gym floor. Other ones you want more like a yoga atmosphere or something like that. So find out what you love and do it that way, and, uh, I would love to own the gym frankly, not for the business, but just to be able to use with all the various side machines and various ones to work your, uh, your, uh, other than your quads and the regular squatty muscles, you know, there's all kinds of exercises you can do. How many bodybuilders build their shins, for instance? And all those bodybuilders that only found exercise for the—you do good for you. How I found out about it is a former Mr. America—I forget his name—from the, the old Mr. America, Lance something, uh, a friend of mine, a co-author of my book, *Yes, No, Maybe*; we wrote the book together. She had a foot problem that kept hurting her, so he said, "Simply you're overusing your calf and not using your shins," so he gave her some exercises. So I devised one; I went to the quad machine and I lay…

Down on the floor in front of it, you should have seen people at the gym looking at me. And I took all the weights out, and I just pulled forward with my feet, using the shin muscle. It was so weak, with no weight on it, just the weight of the machine itself. I could only do about 10 reps because it’s so underused. Within three or four weeks, I have built up to 40 pounds, 10 reps, using that same shin muscle.

And so, uh, anyway, it’s just fun to figure out the different muscles and how to tone them up, and to get the Christmas tree in the back, all that kind of stuff, really interesting to me. I love it.

Yeah, you uh, hit on a couple of my uh, passions there. I, I also love swimming, and in particular the breaststroke. And in particular, I’ll uh, you know, take a big breath of air and do the breaststroke and see how far I can get and hold my breath underwater, and I really like that. Um, I, I always get uh, flattered whenever anyone comments like, “Wow, you can hold your breath for really long underwater.” There, and uh, I can’t help but uh, yeah, blush a little. Um, I could do the idea four times underwater at one point. And some guy saw me and said, “That’s amazing.” So he started swimming, and I was the only one there, and he and I started walking away. Well, he made it four times; his head lifts up and it drops down, and I thought, “Well, this shell off, he’s going to go hold his breath longer.” Then big bubbles come out, and I realized he was drowning, so I yelled, “Help!” And I dragged him out of the water and gave him CPR, and basically he was okay. But back then, I uh, I had really good breath from doing that breaststroke; it was my, my favorite of all underwater.

Yeah, I also like that uh, you can use the water and uh, breath work underwater. Uh, I feel like that is an effective tool to actually sort of hypertrophy or strengthen the lung musculature and improve that metabolism in a sort of similar way that lifting weights does. Do you think uh, a lot of people have known that the dolphin reflex uh, keys in when you do that? You’re probably familiar with that, that we have a backup that could easier to hold your breath underwater, and it’s related to dolphins, which is a mystery. Our hair curls like a dolphin, not like a gorilla’s. So there are theories that we actually spent some time in the city and came back out again, and our, our development, evolutionary development is in question over that. It became quite a theory back in the 80s, I believe, and I thought that was really interesting that we do have a dolphin reflex that you definitely can hold your breath for longer times when you’re under water. Perhaps it’s the womb or experience in the womb where we’re in the water.

We touched on uh, steroids and uh, a lot of things are considered uh, steroids, and that has a connotation, and there are tons of steroids that we prescribe and are sometimes advisable in a medical uh, context. But what drugs are all drugs? Yes? No? Maybe? I’d say yes or maybe. I don’t use any, and I’m kind of fanatic about that, except in emergencies. Believe me, if I got a serious infection that either garlic or thieves oil or aloe couldn’t go, I would go and get an antibiotic. So there are some drugs that are valuable; most of them are nonsense if you look at the percentage of cure they say. Statins, you get an extra three percent of life. Well, it’s well known by the AMA that proceed the three percent, so this is way below even placebo effect. In fact, drug people try to keep people subject to who are more uh, prone to placebo out of their drug studies because it messes them up.

Well, I’ve, I’ve dealt with placebo in my life and seeing people get well by using their mind power over their body power many times in bodybuilding. In fact, the mind and focus is very important for that. Look at Frank Zane; he’s a big, a big proponent of mind power for the body. He had what was called a ballet bodybuilder back in the day before they started muscularizing, but he’s still going strong. Last time I saw a video, a couple of years ago, when he was up there, and I think he was in Palm Springs. But so some of the steroids you can get the same effect from, like oranges. That’s what I figured out; oranges actually build testosterone. And here’s the really funny thing: if a man wants to build testosterone, there’s two ways: have sex with a woman; the touch reflexes build it, and then we have a second back up visual, so that’s why porn works; you’re working two sections on having your softie get lofty, with a one is the touch that probably is oxytocin, they claim. I’m, I’m uh, open to it not being, because sometimes they attribute the wrong drug to the, to the wrong thing. Uh, but let’s say, let’s just say it’s oxytocin, but the other one is more dopamine and related in that way. So you can v. dot or you can actually touch without even any visual input, a female or a female or male and get that. So basically your best testosterone builder is the imagination, which will turn the DHA and all these other chemicals in the DHEA and other chemicals into testosterone and partial proteins and peptides and everything like that. So that’s, that’s my take on it. We can do away with all those prescription drugs from the medical establishment.

Speaking of testosterone, um, a lot of people acknowledge that it aromatizes and turns into estrogen, and therefore it’s not necessarily a great idea. And then a lot of people decide that they should uh, start aromatase inhibitors. Do you have any opinion on aromatase inhibitors?

Uh, yeah, they, they’re used, you know, testosterone when it turns into dehydrotestosterone, I think it’s called, actually, it is connected with male baldness; it’s probably true. Uh, there are connections like that. So uh, but these drug inhibitors that they make you think it’s one against one, but there’s numerous circles in there. And from Ray P, one of the main things I learned from him is there are no receptors; there’s no uh, there’s no double layer of fat; there’s no sodium pump, calcium pump. I think they have about 30 pumps energetically that would be impossible to do. Uh, what’s his name, uh, uh, can’t think of the other guy, the easy water guy, Gerald Pollack. Yeah, exactly, Gerald Pollard; he’s done a lot of research on that too. Gilbert Delaney has done probably the premier research on it, and also there’s no, so there’s no brain blood barrier; there’s no receptors. Anytime you hear someone say, “this receptor, the estrogen receptor,” you know they’re lying. And actually, I always knew that the medical progression was way off, but when I started listening fanatically to Ray P, you’ll probably listen to about two or three hundred of his interviews and multiple times we’ve gone to sleep with Reiki all night when he’s droning away, and I’ve come to the conclusion that almost you can almost do everything backwards from the way the medical profession tells you and be healthier than you can by following their instruction. I mean, nitric oxide, you know, the molecule of 1992, it turns out to kill people. Uh, serotonin kills people. In fact, the sting in the nettle, that’s serotonin; the sting that killed Steve Irwin, was that his name, the alligator guy, the crocodile guy? You remember he got stung in the heart; it was serotonin that did him. And then, of course, we have all the other things like melatonin and all the things that are supposed to be good for you are turned on their head. Carbon dioxide will build more muscle than nitric oxide will, and it’s much better for your heart than nitric oxide. So Ray P has so many answers; I’ve uh, I’ve regarded him as a blessing in my life that, that he is around, and he still amazes me. We listen, or we listen to something and say, “How did we miss that?” So anyway, yeah, Ray Pete is someone I advise everybody to listen to a lot, certainly, uh, as do I.

But be careful because mixing dairy with orange is not a good idea. Somebody, I would agree with you on that for sure. Yeah, there, it does not make sense in on a number of levels. But uh, let me ask you about something else. Um, you’re a little bit older than me; I get the feeling that you have a more exploratory uh, outlook on some of the recreational substances. Can you speak to, they’re now uh, you know, the multi-disciplinary association for psychedelic studies, and these people in Johns Hopkins, and the medical establishment is starting to look into psychedelics as potentially therapeutic or valuable. Um, do you think that they are indeed valuable, and also are you potentially concerned by their uh, basically incorporation into the medical establishment and prescriptions?

They’re certainly better than the various heroin type analogues that they have now, just synthetics that are killing so many people. And by the way, heroin by itself is a good drug; if they just used straight heroin, they weren’t killing people with that; it’s the synthetics that are 100 or 200 times more powerful and what kills people on the street. They don’t know if they’re getting that much heroin or that much heroin. If they actually legalize it, you’d have a lot better results. There have been famous surgeons who have operated for 10 or 20 years taking a moderate amount of heroin. Now I prefer natural, but I have delved into the LSD world quite extensively at one time. I think I took about 20 or 25 trips, and I found that your psychic ability can go up. We did many experiments along that line, though it’s hard to do because the world is changing while you do it. I think it’s very therapeutic. Meditation took me out of it because I realized there are other states you can get beyond it, but I tell you uh, it takes a really powerful meditation to outdo LSD. The thing I learned from Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is that what meditation is about, though, is what you do when you’re not meditating; it’s the effects it has on your life. So that’s the thing that actually got me out of the LSD category. I think it should be legal. Terry Grant did it; a whole bunch of people were doing it. Timothy Leary brought so much attention to it. All this actually told them, “Don’t tell people about this because they’re going to make it illegal.” But of course, it got made illegal before that. Many people were using it. A lot of people don’t know that uh, let’s see, what is her name, the book she wrote about LSD because she was a friend of Aldous Huxley. She wrote a book about her LSD experience, and you know what her, her popular name was? Adele Davis. It was Huxley’s next-door neighbor and dropped a lot of acid. So who knows why she died? I think she died on a TV show when she came out to talk about health, but I doubt if it had anything to do with either the LSD or the lack of LSD. But she, a lot of people on the slide have experimented with LSD, and I found it uh, I think it’s very therapeutic. I went back at one time into my childhood, found things that when I confronted my mother about it, about my father, she denied it, but then she said, “It’s true, that did happen.” I saw my life as 10, 10, 10 types of like old brown photographs going through. And so I think it can be used as a valuable tool. It’s ridiculous to have it illegal. In fact, I think if all pharmaceutical, pharmaceutical drugs were legal, like Thomas Szasz said, uh, there’d be no problem. Because right now it’s the money; the pharmaceutical companies can make fortunes on statin and Tylenol and everything else. And uh, if you took the financial deal away, what could they do? Make it all legal? They, we are not babies; we can make up our own decision about what we’re going to do. They give us a car to drive; you can, you can mow down 30 people with a car; who needs a gun, you know? So uh, you can take gasoline and throw it on people, and you can buy it at any pump in the station, as uh, John Taylor Gatto has pointed out. But, but anyway, there’s a place for it. I don’t use drugs, and I think most of them are unnecessary. Maybe about, maybe there’s a case for a thyroid medication; maybe there’s a case for, and there is a case for antibiotics, and maybe a few others.

Here’s something they don’t tell you, though: you can get an antibiotic in your, antibiotics in your back yard. At one time, in the 1940s, at the beginning of the Second World War, they figured out what an antibiotic, what the antibiotic was; you could get it out of the first one they discovered was chlorella. In chlorella, you can take plain chlorella and have more of an antibiotic effect than than penicillin. Actually, penicillin is an abiotic, not an antibody, but chlorella is an actual antibody. They worked out the toxicities, the times, and everything, but they wanted to reveal it all; the going through and delving through the science magazines I did at that time, they wouldn’t reveal the exact amount of oxygen and sunlight that had to be exposed. And in 1946, when they locked everything up, Ray Peat has noticed this too, as I did in my research; they all got together in worldwide conferences and said, “We’re going to hide this information from people,” and they have. So now, oh, you can only make penicillin out of molds that we make in laboratories that can only make this out of that and that. Not true; you can make antibiotics or half of life where half a biotic and half antibiotic, yin and yang, anabolic, catabolic, acidic, alkaline; it’s all there, and it’s in the people’s backyard if they would only release that information to us, which is hidden someplace. Somebody knows about it.

It’s interesting and uh, especially on that note, uh, returning to psychedelics that you would bring up LSD in particular, uh, because I think that a lot of people fall prey to this uh, natural bias, the idea that you should only take things that are naturally occurring, and uh, you know, like you were just making the um, argument, you know, you can actually derive most of the antibiotics from things that are living in the soil. And I was totally unaware, oblivious to ergot uh, which was uh, basically the, you know, predecessor to LSD.

Guess what? That’s untrue. That’s untrue.

Yeah, yeah. What, what is it or about? Does it makes you pass out? It doesn’t make you get up and dance. They, in fact, it was probably hysteria because outbreaks were happening in Africa at the same time, all over the world, something was happening. Uh, viruses involved in yawning; they haven’t found one; I don’t think they will because certain things happen on a, what do they call it, the hundreds monkey effect. All over the world there was the dancing going around, and they realized the church was so repressive at the time that people couldn’t do anything; they had to sit in roads and everything. So what did they do? They started dancing. They don’t tell you about all the sexual intercourse that was going on during those dancing either; all kinds of things were going loose. They basically broke all the rules, and they had an excuse, “Oh, we’ve been possessed,” or whatever. And so all over Europe, all over Africa and other places in the world this was going on. Books have now been written about that, and now the theory has leaned over to that side, which makes a lot more sense than ergot, which just knocks you out. That ergot thing, it was around a long time. I, I believe that when I was taking psychedelics back there, I heard that same thing, and there’s a 99% chance that is not true.

Fascinating. I will definitely be doing more research then.

Um, okay, so let me shift the uh, topic just a little bit. What do you think about young people? Do you think that young people have forgotten how to be young?

You know, the problem is we have two things that are making people stupid these days: pot, unfortunately, and smartphones. Smartphones are not that smart, and it made people, right now we have a great reset going on, and we want to demonize certain people. Well, it’s actually the people who are stupid enough to go along with the things that are going on now. If you really think about it, George Carlin used to do a thing about politics; he said, “Where do you think these people come from? They come from American schools; they come from American churches; they come from plain old Americans; they didn’t come out of a membrane in some place.” So if we think that getting rid of uh, leaders like Bill Gates or someone like that is going to solve anything, or Biden or whoever, Trump, whoever you’re against, there’ll be someone to replace him immediately, and that’s a process of our education. Even though, besides writing *Medical Nemesis*, wrote *D-School in Society*, and realized that school was designed to actually dump people down and introduce eugenics. John Taylor Gatto wrote extensively about it; his whole larger book is available on the internet. I have a copy of it, and I’m a great fan of John Taylor Gatto as well as Evan Ella. Right now we have an opportunity to get rid of school; everybody’s staying home; let them stay home. You can, are some of our greatest scientists of all time were unschooled. George Washington didn’t go to school; Rockefeller didn’t go, I think he went to the third grade. Uh, a lot of famous people would say Morgan, I think Morgan only went to third grade or something like that, and they became scientific geniuses without the help, with the internet now you can learn so much; it’s amazing. I did research in medical libraries; showed up at 7:30 in the morning; they kicked me out at 2:00 at night; that’s where I found out a lot of this stuff. Now with the internet, if you know how to search correctly, see, they bring it up so that you have to go to certain places; they keep you in a bubble. But I’ve learned little tricks like the quotation marks; if you want to look up, like say you want to look up omega-3, you put “omega-3 fatty acids,” or “omega-3 fatty acids,” all kinds of ways to take you to places they don’t want you. In fact, this is, this sounds very conspiratorial, but I can guarantee it’s true: when I started writing about yellow fat disease, there were like 8,400 hits on Google, and every time I wrote a blog it went up, 9,000, 10,000, 11,000, got it up to 26,000. Suddenly it jumped down; somebody discovered that I was onto yellow fat disease and didn’t want it out there. Even Wikipedia, they have six or seven reasons why you get yellow fat disease, none of them involve omega-3, and even the experts will at least factor that in someplace, not in Wikipedia. So even now, if you check out “yellow fat disease” in parentheses, you will get maybe uh, I think it’s down to 7,900 last time, and then it varies up to 8,400. So basically Google, see if I talk about certain subjects, but I won’t mention, you know, they, they censor you, but they don’t want to censor omega-3s because they would go with that disease because people then will see, “Why are they censoring yellow fat disease?” So at this point they just quietly do it, so I can spout off about Facebook on Facebook about yellow fat disease to my heart’s desire because I know they don’t want to to censor me because it will actually build the case, which is happening now with the censoring with other things that are going on. So anyway, uh, if you learn tricks on searching, use a word to put “is,” “was,” “was not,” all kinds of tricks like that. And another one is they have certain words that they’re used to, like if you put something to put “Jesus,” they take you to an approved site because they know people are going to say, “Jesus, help me find this,” it’s going to go, but they don’t yet use the f-word, the f-bomb, and things like that. So if you attach that with the word, it takes you to an unapproved site, and then from there you work backwards. I found out that was slower, though; I found that it’s much faster to put “yellow fat disease is,” “yellow fat disease was,” “yellow fat disease isn’t,” “yellow fat disease,” that use various tricks; you can think of hundreds of combinations, and that takes you out of the bubble because otherwise you’re gonna find the same things, and your information will be on page 100 for a thousand; no one’s going to go there, and they know that. But if you use those parentheses, bingo, right there in front of your eyes on the first page.

Yeah, definitely. And something I noticed even in my lifetime, um, is that when I was younger and I started using Google, whatever I typed in there was the first page.

That sort of made sense, that it would be the top results. And then the second page made almost as much sense; that it would be the second page. And the third page made the next reasonable amount of sense. Now it's something entirely different, where the first page is okay; I get it, this is what they want us seeing. But then the second page is totally unrelated; the third page is totally unrelated. And so it's not like you're getting further and further; it's like you drop off a cliff in terms of relevance.

But back to young people, you said pot and smartphones. Yeah, and again, I'm not against psychedelics. But back when they needed muscle to work at GM and plants like that, then they didn't want drugs. Coffee and meth, maybe; but they certainly didn't want pot, because you may not want to, you know, put the little widget in over and over like that all day. And I had friends of mine that have done jobs like that, and there happened to be the GM plant in the San Fernando Valley was the greatest place to get drugs that you could imagine at the time, because everybody to work a job like that was horrible. But they didn't want you taking a—a—my good friend of mine ended up in mess break because they had to do that to do that all day. Pot makes you relax. Now that they want to replace us with machines, they want you to just sit back and smoke pot.

So here the corporations are taking over; they're making it hard for the mom-and-pop people in Carpinteria, California, and in Santa Barbara to do it. They want the corporations to come in from the East Coast and other places because they can monitor them, meaning they can control it. By the way, right here where I live is the—the pot—pot central; it's where all the pot is coming from in basically the whole country now. I forget, in California, this area is like 99%, I think, of the amount of pot grown in the—in the California, and a large percentage of what is distributed around the rest of the states. So it's really interesting to see the battle between the wineries and the hemp people and the—and the pot, because you know, if you have a hemp farm next to a pot farm, you put them out of business, because frustrating the female plant is what makes the psychedelic part, and if the male fertilizes the female, no punch to the pot. So it's really funny; we have pot wars going on here.

I—I get you. Two of the best things I have done for myself certainly were to stop smoking pot myself and delete Instagram off of my phone. I definitely uh see a connection there, and I see a lot of people who are my age and especially younger who smoke a lot of weed, and it reinforces their social anxiety and encourages them to live their life increasingly through social media on their phones. Um, and even worse, not even to create content on those platforms, but just to consume it. And I think that kind of speaks to the uh detrimental nature that you were uh getting at. So, pro thumbs up to psychedelics and thumbs down to weed.

Um, I was pretty much where I stand; I would have to agree, and probably for what sounds like a similar reason, which is that it's really hard to become addicted to psychedelics because if you do them, and especially if you have a good experience, what you realize is they improve your life when you're not on them. So you become—there's a positive feedback for you to go and live your life and not keep doing the drug because you're like, "Oh wow, I have—I have that opportunity to reframe something or think about something differently or see something in a different way, and now I can go make change in the world, in my life, and with the people around me." Um, that's why I was earlier than ayahuasca. Now I read about ayahuasca through the Wisdom Bureau, so I wonder if it's not some kind of watered-down product, because the way William Burroughs described uh ayahuasca and always a dragon eq and all those things—I've talked to people; they don't have that kind of experience that Burroughs did. And I forget the name of the man who went down into South America; he tried every type of psychedelic, but his mind was so strong, all he saw was color, which is a level above geometry. So this man—Ivanka, do you remember who I'm talking about, the guy that went to South America? And Andrew Weil was a student of his; Wade Davis was a student of his. Uh, she doesn't—yeah, she's thinking. Anyway, his book—Wade Davis's book—goes into his biography; it's called *One River*. I highly recommend you read it, and it's very interesting because it also goes into Coca-Cola did use pot at one point, and they still have—I mean, use the cocaine out of it, and they still have uh related to cocaine in the product Coca-Cola that isn't in Pepsi-Cola. And they have the right to do that because it's sent from uh Argentina, I think it is; they have different varieties of coke and coca, and the best one is sent to this lab in New Jersey; the U.S. government uses it for experiments, whatever that means. And the rest of what's left goes to Coca-Cola; Pepsi-Cola doesn't have that because Coca-Cola has had an end since the Second World War by being approved by the U.S. government to distribute Coca-Cola to the troops, not Pepsi-Cola. Anyway, there's a whole involvement with that and the CIA and the NSA, etc.; fascinating.

So if you were to speak to an audience of people under the age of 30, young people, what—what would you uh encourage us to do or to change in our lives, ourselves, and the world around us? You know, uh, learn mind hacking. I developed a technique; I learned about body language from Swami Nitty Gritty. He taught me the left-right thing, uh, and that it's backwards from how polarity therapy thinks. But one day I had a friend of mine who's a tennis player and a tennis teacher, and I'm turning his feet in a simple reflexology technique that I was doing, but as I turned it in figure eights, he mentioned a woman's name, and his right—his right foot jumped. And I'm looking at my image in the screen; his right foot jumped, and I said, "Could you repeat that?" He mentioned her name again, and it jumped, and I realized, "Holy cow, this can—this be." And since then my whole way of working with people changed because you just turn their feet and find out who's the matter with them, and it's either a male or woman. Almost nobody has an "it" trauma, like how many people do you know, "I'm going to get even with that stoop for tripping me 20 years ago," it suits me, but I've met many people, "I'm gonna—" My mother was so bad; I'm talking to an 80-year-old guy; mother was bad, and he's still upset about it. Or my—my ex-wife is so bad 40 years ago, and they're registering the fee. So know thyself is the first thing, and go to the basics of our body. And the whole internet is based on things that we are internal to our body that we just apply. Before the telephone there was ESP, and people can do it. I can tell you it's a real thing because I've experienced it many times, and I've been with people who could do it. Uh, to me it's a kind of a hit-and-miss thing. Swami did a great—he could read your mind easily enough. Uh, Chan can read your mind; Adnan could reach your mind. I've met people who can do that quite easily, and they know it's kind of a spiritual crime to go into people's minds, so they ask your permission. So with Nitty Gritty, I said, "Go ahead, whatever, you know, go in my mind and figure out what's going on." We have these abilities, and I think we should get to the fundamentals and work with our body language like they did in the 60s, where they did the body-mind work; Alexander, Lowen, William Reich, things like that. That's the first thing to really go, and then don't believe what you hear from your government, from your school, and from your hospital, for God's sake. Think for yourself, and uh, and read widely. I read the opposite; I—I mean, I read Quackwatch and I read Wikipedia; I don't agree with them usually, but I want to see what their idea is. And then I learned a trick from Nitty Gritty: read the opposing deal and find their weakness, and find—and then when the person confronts you with information, give the information that you read in their book, and they say, "Where'd you get that from?" Your book. And that really flummoxes them because you'll find, like in the blood type diet, a major mistake was made on page 27 where it disproved his whole point. I'm not going to go into that and uh, on a level, because the blood type is mostly false; only about one percent of it is correct because your gut is more involved with lectins than your blood type will ever be.

Absolutely; that actually uh really kind of um speaks to an earlier part of our conversation because what it sounds like—what I hear you—hear you saying, especially in that last point, is that in an information war, you need to know your enemy because if you know your enemy, then sort of like a Tai Chi master or an Aikido master might uh encourage you to do, you can redirect their energy so that they fall flat on their face when their information is uh evidently incorrect.

I think that's right—to experience it for yourself. Now I studied with Adnan Sohani, who was a Sufi, and I'm not talking about this square-dancing type Sufi. We did intense workshops; my first six-week class at the residence of—of all people—uh—J.R. Reynolds; he was a Sufi, the tobacco guy. So he gave his entire estate up in the mountains, in the Smoky Mountains, I guess, to us to work with. Well, at one point I was wondering, I said, "Here's this guy leading this workshop, and I'm doing all these exercises all day and all night; we're doing these intense exercises; what if he's a fake?" And I asked myself a question: "Are you getting anything out of it?" And uh, and I said, "Hell yes, I'm getting something out of it." So that's what the deal is: Are you getting something out of it? People need to go inside themselves, find their heart's desire, whatever you want to call it, and go for yourself, and don't just say, "Because he's an expert, he knows this." See what you get out of it. Schulzi's is the name of the guy, by the way, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. *One River*, okay. And by the way, my motto is: I looked at my horoscope one time and said—and he mounted his horse and rode off in all directions. So forgive me for getting distracted sometimes. That's—that's fine. Um, sincerely, I really appreciate the—the loose cannon uh approach. I've got you on here for two hours; I really would love to pick your brain another time. But in closing this, um, how would you like to see uh my generation, the younger generation—how would you like to see the 21st century unfold if uh people who love humanity and are pro-human uh are doing the right thing?

Well, frankly, follow things you're into, because I was—I really meant it; it was the best email I've ever gotten from anybody. I thought, "This guy is something else." So basically, you're reaching out, you're learning, you're experiencing things, and you're thinking for yourself, and that's what you want to do: think for yourself. You know, we don't want total independence; we don't want uh total dependence; we want interdependence. Like, I don't have to learn to—to uh make my own shoes; I mean, it helps, or make my own clothes, or make my own—build my own house. But interdependence is: you have a choice; you don't just have one person; there's multiple choices. So that's shoemaker; I don't like—I go to another shoemaker; that's interdependence. And I think we all need to be more independent, more networking things like that, like people get together and discuss certain things. I've been in Gergic groups; I've been in TM groups; I've been in all kinds of different groups, and I find it can be advantageous and avoid—in the Gergic work, they say, "Have you moved your brains today?" Because many people don't; they get—what they think is thinking is just a button. So if you mention liberal, conservative, they react; they don't act anymore; they react. So you train yourself to find out what your mind is doing, where your traps are, and then become as individual and act with people as a free agent and in free enterprise with other people. And I think that's what's missing now is everybody is depending on experts, and the government's going to do it, the school's going to do it, the hospital is going to do it, the doctor is going to do it; even the naturopath's going to do it. For God's sake, even question them; they sometimes have the most mistaken ideas that are found—have been on social media and from the holistic community.

Yep. Yeah, I can do it; encouraging speech. But I see good things out there and good possibilities. Uh, I see Rappey; I see Danny Roddy; I see uh—I see a lot of people out there who are inspiring and uh, and are thinking for themselves. So there is hope. It's tough. You know, you made a point about um outsourcing, basically, that you shouldn't have to make your own shoes; you shouldn't—someone else can probably make better shoes than you, and you should be free to choose the person that you want to make your shoes for you. But I think that sadly what we really are looking at—are part of what we're really looking at—is that people are encouraged and incentivized and rewarded to outsource their thinking and outsource uh the—the concepts themselves that are defined by the phrases like liberal or conservative, for example. And so we have a highly uh reductionist uh sort of groupthink where the experts determine the concept that's referred to by a word, and we see that, of course, with the control over speech and censorship, and the following definitely happens. It was a professor; I was a fan of his books; his name escapes me now, but he said that the left-right works in a circle. So you'll find a place where left and right join, and whether it's called anarchy or whatever it is, it exists. A perfect example is in one of the presidential elections where uh which Ralph Nader joined with uh Pat—well, I can't even think of his name now—but very right, very left, to fight the uh the various uh fast-tracking around the world that was going on. So there is a point where we can all meet and realize uh our—our sameness rather than our differences. Swami Satchidananda used to say, "They're always talking about having a meeting of the minds; they need a meeting of the hearts," and I think he's really on to something there, that when we see that—a lot of times—sometimes I see people arguing about the same thing; they don't realize they just have different terms for it, and they—they mean the same thing. I recently had a discussion with a guy on a radio show that I do a vlog on, and basically we're on the same page in a lot of things, but because of the terminology, it just isn't synchronized enough.

I hear you, Adam; it's really been a pleasure. I'm going to uh be respectful of your time and uh let you go. Are there any closing words? I know that uh if people want to find out more about you, they can go to solartiming.com.

That's right. Beautiful. Yes. And is that the primary website for all of your work? This is where I have about 40 books and many books for sale and uh, and uh Sun Sync Nutrition is a 99 site that a friend of mine from India—basically, he heard me on the radio show, and I said, "I need an internet guru to help me get started." His name is Guru; he says, "That's me," and he's an internet expert. So that's how we ended up with Sunset Nutrition. But meanwhile, all our books and a lot of other things are available; we can make a few videos too at solartiming.com. And I've written everything from *The Heart Is Not a Pump*, *The Butterflies Need No Taxidermist*, *12 Bucks on Yellow Fat Disease*, and uh a lot of other things. My closing words: that is something I learned from Swami Daddy Gregory: The timing of the daily events of your life is the proof that creative consciousness is directing your existence. And so when your timing is working, you're onto something; your consciousness works; the timing works for you, not against you. Murphy gets out of the equation when you time yourself, and however you do it—solar nutrition, meditation, uh Tai Chi, Qi Gong, Sufi dancing—that's the goal: time yourself.