Transcription
The first time I ever went to go and see Peterson talk live, he um he got asked this question and this person said, "The depth of my consciousness causes me to suffer. Is it a blessing or a curse to feel everything so very deeply?" I was like, "Give that person a podcast." Like, whoever asked that question. Phenomenal question, right? And uh Peterson thought for a moment and he said, "The only way out is through. You take more of the thing that poisons you until you turn it into a tonic that girdles the world around you." I was like, "That's awesome."
But one thing I'm not getting, there's a big difference between letting people do something for themsel and saying men should be dangerous. By dangerous that implies I should be ready to threaten someone, to hurt somebody. No, you should be capable of it, but that doesn't mean you should use it. There's nothing to you otherwise. Like if you're not a formidable force, there's not there's no morality in your self-control. If you're incapable of violence, not being violent isn't a virtue. People who teach martial arts know this full well, right? If you learn a martial art, you learn to be dangerous, but simultaneously you learn to control it. Both of those come together.
And the combination of that capacity for danger and the capacity for control is what brings about the virtue. Otherwise, you confuse weakness with with moral virtue. I'm harmless, therefore I'm good. It's like, no, that isn't how it works. That isn't how it works at all. If you're harmless, you're just weak. And if you're weak, you're not going to be good. You can't be because it takes strength to be good. It's very difficult to be good. A harmless man is not a good man. A good man is a very, very dangerous man who has that under voluntary control.
And you know, you also see that like one of the central female stories, let's say, um, if the hero archetype is the central male story, there are variants of hero archetypes that are relevant to women. And one of them is Beauty and the Beast. And you know, Beauty isn't interested in the guy who isn't the beast. She's interested in the guy who's the beast. And that's exactly right. But she's interested in the guy who's the beast that can be civilized and disciplined, right? And who can use that in the service well let's say of a family and and that's exactly well that's exactly how it should be well I also think that that's part of what makes a world peaceful in the in the final analysis because if you're around people who are dangerous but disciplined then everyone watches their step and that's exactly what should happen everybody should watch their step and if you don't if if there's no reason for that then well there's no there's no sanction for for poor behavior.
For example, you you write in the book, there is no faith and no courage and no sacrifice in doing what is expedient. What do you say to those viewers that don't pursue their dreams and are locked in their careers because they are too afraid to take risks and pursue something meaningful?
Well, the first thing I would say is well, you should be afraid of taking risks and pursuing something meaningful. But you should be more afraid of staying where you are if it's making you miserable. It's like the first thing you want to do is dispense with the idea that you get to have any any permanent security outside of your ability to contend and adapt. It's the same issue with children. It's like you're paying a price by sitting there being miserable. And you might say, "Well, the devil I know is better than the one I don't." It's like, don't be so sure of that. The clock is ticking. And if you're miserable in your job now and you change nothing in 5 years you'll be much more miserable and you'll be a lot older.
It's painful to understand how much of what you're doing isn't productive. So I'll give you an example. So how much time do you waste? So then I I get the class to vote. How many of you waste uh 10 hours a day? It's like 10% of the kids will put up their hands. And it's interesting because I don't define what constitutes waste. I just ask the question. So they're diagnosing themselves, right? I'm not saying you're wasting 10 hours a day. I'm just asking. It's like given your own attitude, how much time are you wasting? 10 hours a day. It's like 10% of the people put up their hands. Well, when you get to like 6 hours a day, 80% of the people put up their hands. It's like, okay, 6 hours a day, it's 42 hours a week. So, let's call that a work week. 40 hours a week. Let's say, what's your time worth? You're a university student. Well, it's certainly worth minimum wage cuz obviously, but it's worth way more than that because if you spend a productive hour when you're 20, then you gain the benefits of that hour for the rest of your life. So, there's the compounding effect of time spent when we were young. So, I say, well, let's assume your time is worth 50 bucks an hour, which I think is an underestimate, but whatever. Let's call it 50. We call it 25, but we'll call it 50. That's $2,000 a week you're wasting. It's $100,000 a year. It's like, how much better would your life be if you weren't wasting $100,000 a year? It's like, what is that over 40 years, $4 million? It's like, you're rich. You don't even know it. Quit wasting time by your own definition. It's like people shake their heads like, "Well, I never thought about it that way." It's like, yeah, think about it that way. Don't waste your damn life.
And and then you think, well, why would people be resistant to that message? It's like, well, you really want to wake up and figure out that you're wasting half your life. And you know when people do that kind of wasting they actually hate it. It's painful to recognize that. Then it's painful to think, "Oh my god, look how undisiplined I am. I don't know anything. I can't use a schedule. I can't I can't stick to a calendar. I don't have any aims. I don't know anything about the world, right? And maybe there's a part of me that's bitter because I haven't got everything already. And I'd like just like to say to hell with it." That's the recognition of the union shadow. It's like that's what makes you vicious and and untrustworthy. all of that. No one wants to look at that and no bloody wonder.
So I had I have this friend and this this story really hit me. So um during the pandemic running a podcast I was able to have the thing that I feel I'm good at my artistic pursuit and out outlet that was available for me to continue. It was actually increased cuz I didn't have other stuff to do. And I have a friend that's a barber and he got a job at a supermarket. Barbers shut down for a long period of time and he got a job at a supermarket stacking shelves overnight. And I asked him, I was like, "Man, how are you how are you finding the new job that you this is a big a big change?" He's like, "Do you know what it is? I I actually don't mind the work. I don't mind the people that I work with, but man, I miss being good at something."
Right. Right. Right. Well, dude, that hit me. Yeah. So hard. Right. I missed being good at something. Yeah. Yeah. Well, people need the opportunity to be good at something.
It So then you might ask yourself, well, what's the best antidote to the discomfort of life? And you might say, well, it's comfort. And I suppose that's what you act out when you swaddle a baby. But a better antidote is something like adventure to excellence. And that's far better antidote to suffering than the mere absence of suffering. So not to say that the mere absence of suffering that's not nothing. You know, Dossiovski said that every man was responsible for everything he did and and for everything that everyone else does, which is kind of an insane statement, but also somewhat it's true in in in a certain sense. You do have an indefinite responsibility and you do have an indefinite capacity to bear that responsibility, but that doesn't mean it can't be crushing. And then I would say the antidote to that is that you're not in this alone. As your responsibilities mount and your opportunities increase, you have to delegate. It's important that you do everything you can, but there's enough for everyone to do. And so you might say, well, the heroic path is one that leads to universal redemption. And that's true. And you might say, well, that's all on you. It's like it is in a sense. But then the problem that you just described comes up.
Shouldering too much burden. Well, it can crush you. It can be unsustainable, right? You can torture yourself for not doing it well enough. And it is up to you, but it's not up to you alone. It's not up to you alone.
The the fundamental issue is that life is tragic and difficult, very tragic and difficult for everyone. And it's also tainted by malevolence because no matter how things are tragic and difficult, but there's always some stupid thing that you could do or someone else could do that could make it even worse than it has to be. And so that's life. And you need an antidote to that because that can embitter you. Constant contact with that. just the tragedy, but the tragedy combined with betrayal and malevolence that makes it even worse, especially if it's self-induced. Okay? So, you need something to set against that so you don't get bitter and resentful. Well, what do you set against that? Doing something worthwhile. By your own definition, say you need some reason to get the hell out of bed on a terrible day because you've got something good to do. Well, what's the best thing you can do? Transcend your current wretched and miserable self. There's meaning to be found in that and real resp that's that's a meaning that's associated with responsibility.
There's been this attempt to identify masculine competence and and power, let's say, but mostly competence with tyranny. And that's very very hard on on young men. It's also hard on young women for that matter. But it's very helpful for people to hear that they should make themselves competent and dangerous and take their proper place in the world.
Competent and dangerous. Mhm. Why dangerous? Because it's the alternative to being weak. And weak is not good. The people who shoot up the high schools, they're weak. They're weak. How is it good to be dangerous? Because it makes you formidable. And life is a very difficult process. And it's not for you're not prepared for it. Unless unless you have the capacity for to be dangerous. That doesn't mean that you should be cruel. It doesn't mean any of that. There's a statement in the New Testament, the meek shall inherit the earth. But the meek isn't well translated. It means something more like those who have swords and know how to use them but keep them sheaththed will inherit the world. You have to be powerful and formidable and then peaceful in that order. And that's not the same as being naive and weak and harmless, which is what young men are being encouraged to be. It's like that's a very bad idea. It's a very bad idea cuz naive, weak, and harmless means that you can't withstand the tragedies of life. You can't bear any responsibility. You'll end up bitter. And when you get bitter, then you get dangerous.
It's okay to be a man. It's not okay. It's necessary. What the hell are we going to do without men? You look around the city here, you see all these buildings go up. These men, they're doing impossible things. They're under the streets working on the sewers. They're up on the power lines in the storms and the rain. They're keeping this impossible infrastructure functioning. This thing that works in miraculous manner. They work themselves to death and often literally the gratitude for that is so sorely lacking especially among the people who should be most grateful. You see university professors especially of the social justice bent who are among the most protected and privileged people that the world has ever produced. They take everything they have for granted, failing to understand entirely that there's a massive infrastructure of unbelievably hardworking, solidly laboring, workingass men breaking themselves in half on a regular basis, making sure that everything that always breaks works. And so a little gratitude for that is in order. And it's very useful to tell everyone, not just men, that they have an important role to play, a necessary role, and that if they act properly and honestly and forthrightly, that they can put their lives together and they can help their families and they can make their communities better. And that that's not toxic masculinity. That appalling phrase, it's what keeps the world going round.
But isn't it a luxury to pursue what is meaningful? Our viewers have mortgages. They have children. They have payments and loans. It's a luxury to pursue because we we lack the resources.
Well, I don't think I don't remember now. I'm not talking about what makes you happy. It's a luxury to pursue what makes you happy. It's a moral obligation to pursue what you find meaningful. And that doesn't mean it's easy. It might require sacrifice. If you need to change your job, too. Let's say you have a family and and and children and and a mortgage, you have responsibilities. You've already picked up those responsibilities. You don't just get to walk away scot-free and say, "Well, I don't like my job. I quit." That's no strategy. But what you might have to do is you think, "Well, this job is killing my soul." All right. So, what do I have to do about that? Well, I have to look for another job. Well, no one wants to hire me. It's like, okay, maybe you need to educate yourself more. Maybe you need to update your your curriculum vita, your resume. Maybe you need to overcome your fear of being interviewed. Maybe you need to sharpen your social skills. Like you you have to think about these things strategically. If you're going to switch careers, you have to do it like an intelligent, responsible person. That might take you a couple of years of of of effort.
One of the things that I've been trying to lay out clearly is that life is hard. It's tainted by malevolence and betrayal. That can make you bitter. You need a meaning to offset that. Where's the meaning to be found? Not in rights, not in impulsive pleasure, but in responsibility. You take responsibility for yourself. So, you take care of yourself. If you're good at it, you can you have some excess left over to take care of your damn family. If you're good at both of those, then you have some excess left over to take care of your community. Those are heavy burdens. You pick up the burdens. You find that's meaningful. The best way to pick up the burden is to continually improve yourself. And that's where the meaning is to be found. And so that meaning is in the continual self-trcendence. That's letting your old self die and the new self be reborn.
Life is very hard. If you make yourself weak and you suffer stupidly because of it, you will become bitter. And once you become bitter, you will become vengeful. And after vengeful, there is no limit. That's one of the things I learned from studying totalitarianism in the 20th century. You because I studied it from the psychological perspective. I wasn't interested in the mass movements. I was interested in the motivations of the crulest Oshwitz guard. What was he up to? Or the person who went and shot up the elementary school in Connecticut. What was he up to exactly? Just exactly where did he dwell and why? It's like, well, weakness made him suffer stupidly and that made him cruel and that was just the beginning. And so that weakness that's just if you make yourself weak by engaging in deceit, if you fail to take responsibility, then you transform yourself into something that cannot bear to endure the structure of existence and you will torture yourself and that leads to very bad places. Very bad places.
I spoke to David Gogggins about this last year about how uh I was bullied as a kid and I was quite unpopular in school and I was an only child so I didn't really have many people to back me up you know in the schoolyard or whatever for a long time had a chip on my shoulder about the kids that mistreated me in school as you might expect and then I got toward you know maybe a few years ago and I really really started to reflect on it and realized that so many of the things that I valued in myself were the light side of something dark that had been created during that time in school. So my complete preparedness to just spend time on my own means that I don't mind about moving out to a country where I don't know anybody and trying to make this podcast thing work or spending hours and hours working or researching or recording podcasts or doing intros or whatever it is. Like all of those things. not having a super tight social network as a kid meant that I wasn't beholden to anybody when I grew up that I I didn't feel the need to have as much uh support as I go along to do stuff. Now, other sides of it haven't been so great because I still seek validation. I still seek a lot of validation because that was something that I was missing as a kid. But yeah, realizing not only you probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the things that you went through. M okay there's step one and then step two is and I'm quite grateful for what I've done and then step three would be something like wow I'm proud of myself for having turned something that was negative into something that's positive. But then another level above that would be wow so maybe I should be thankful.
Yeah right well we could put past present and future in the same bin say well one of the things that you want to do is practice gratitude that's one of the primary religious rituals you might say is the practice of gratitude and you might say well my life is so horrible what do I have to be grateful for and I would say that's for better or worse that's still a form of blindness right I mean people can have very very difficult situations can be in very very difficult situations and it's in those difficult situations where the search for gratitude becomes something that is by necessity deeper and more difficult but that doesn't mean it's not appropriate no and there is a very tight association between loving your enemy and being grateful in spite of the terrible things that occur in your life.
I've been writing about the book of Job and Job is a story of unjust suffering. Fundamentally, God deems Job a good man. So, we have it on God's word that Job is actually a good man. And then all hell breaks loose partly because God makes a bet with Satan, which is, you know, a hell of a thing to do, and says, "Do your worst." He's not going to turn on me no matter what you do. And so Job, despite his torment, he becomes very ill. He loses everything he has. He becomes ill in a way that's disfiguring. His friends come around and laugh at him and tell him that he's a bad man and that's why all these terrible things have been happening to him. And it's brutal. And Job refuses to lose faith in himself. He says, "Look, I'm I'm not perfect. I'm but as far as men go, I've done what I should do. And I'm not being punished in some manner that's obviously related to my sin. It's more like the random play of tragic forces in the world. I'm not going to lose faith in myself no matter what. And I'm also not going to, his wife says, shake your fist at God, curse him, and die. Cuz things have gone so badly for Job. He thinks that's all that's left to him. And he refuses to do that. So he maintains faith regardless of what's happened to him. And that's really the moral of the story of Job, which is that you are morally obligated to maintain faith no matter what happens to you. And there's a practical side to that. So imagine that God and Satan conspire against you. There'll be times in your life where it feels like that's happening. And then imagine that your reaction to that is to become bitter and resentful and hostile. Well, then whatever hell you're in merely as a consequence of the confluence of tragic events, you have opened a whole other hell underneath it. The hell of bitterness and resentment and ingratitude and well and that turns into the desire for revenge very very quickly. Think things are bad just because they're bad. You wait till you see how bad they can become if you allow yourself to be corrupted by your unjust suffering.